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You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / Military / Captain Fishback

Captain Fishback

by John Cole|  September 28, 20052:19 pm| 80 Comments

This post is in: Military, War on Terror aka GSAVE®

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This letter should blow the doors off the inaction by the WH and the Pentagon regarding the abuse charges:

Dear Senator McCain:

I am a graduate of West Point currently serving as a Captain in the U.S. Army Infantry. I have served two combat tours with the 82nd Airborne Division, one each in Afghanistan and Iraq. While I served in the Global War on Terror, the actions and statements of my leadership led me to believe that United States policy did not require application of the Geneva Conventions in Afghanistan or Iraq. On 7 May 2004, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld’s testimony that the United States followed the Geneva Conventions in Iraq and the “spirit” of the Geneva Conventions in Afghanistan prompted me to begin an approach for clarification. For 17 months, I tried to determine what specific standards governed the treatment of detainees by consulting my chain of command through battalion commander, multiple JAG lawyers, multiple Democrat and Republican Congressmen and their aides, the Ft. Bragg Inspector General’s office, multiple government reports, the Secretary of the Army and multiple general officers, a professional interrogator at Guantanamo Bay, the deputy head of the department at West Point responsible for teaching Just War Theory and Law of Land Warfare, and numerous peers who I regard as honorable and intelligent men.

Instead of resolving my concerns, the approach for clarification process leaves me deeply troubled. Despite my efforts, I have been unable to get clear, consistent answers from my leadership about what constitutes lawful and humane treatment of detainees. I am certain that this confusion contributed to a wide range of abuses including death threats, beatings, broken bones, murder, exposure to elements, extreme forced physical exertion, hostage-taking, stripping, sleep deprivation and degrading treatment. I and troops under my command witnessed some of these abuses in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

This is a tragedy. I can remember, as a cadet at West Point, resolving to ensure that my men would never commit a dishonorable act; that I would protect them from that type of burden. It absolutely breaks my heart that I have failed some of them in this regard.

That is in the past and there is nothing we can do about it now. But, we can learn from our mistakes and ensure that this does not happen again. Take a major step in that direction; eliminate the confusion. My approach for clarification provides clear evidence that confusion over standards was a major contributor to the prisoner abuse. We owe our soldiers better than this. Give them a clear standard that is in accordance with the bedrock principles of our nation.

Some do not see the need for this work. Some argue that since our actions are not as horrifying as Al Qaeda’s, we should not be concerned. When did Al Qaeda become any type of standard by which we measure the morality of the United States? We are America, and our actions should be held to a higher standard, the ideals expressed in documents such as the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

Others argue that clear standards will limit the President’s ability to wage the War on Terror. Since clear standards only limit interrogation techniques, it is reasonable for me to assume that supporters of this argument desire to use coercion to acquire information from detainees. This is morally inconsistent with the Constitution and justice in war. It is unacceptable.

Both of these arguments stem from the larger question, the most important question that this generation will answer. Do we sacrifice our ideals in order to preserve security? Terrorism inspires fear and suppresses ideals like freedom and individual rights. Overcoming the fear posed by terrorist threats is a tremendous test of our courage. Will we confront danger and adversity in order to preserve our ideals, or will our courage and commitment to individual rights wither at the prospect of sacrifice? My response is simple. If we abandon our ideals in the face of adversity and aggression, then those ideals were never really in our possession. I would rather die fighting than give up even the smallest part of the idea that is “America.”

Once again, I strongly urge you to do justice to your men and women in uniform. Give them clear standards of conduct that reflect the ideals they risk their lives for.

With the Utmost Respect,

— Capt. Ian Fishback

1st Battalion,

504th Parachute Infantry Regiment,

82nd Airborne Division,

Fort Bragg, North Carolina

Andrew Sullivan adds:

The torture end-game is approaching – and Rumsfeld and Cheney know it. What is now being done to the hero, Captain Ian Fishback, who braved 17 months of obstruction, threats and intimidation by military brass to keep quiet, is a national disgrace. Fishback has now been sequestered at Fort Bragg under orders restricting his contacts (the pretext is that he is a key witness in a criminal investigation and that he should not be in contact with outsiders while it continues). My sources tell me that he has been subjected to a series of long, arduous interrogations by CID investigators. Predictably, the CID guys are out to find just one thing: they want to know the identities of his two or three NCO corroborators. The CID folks are apparently indifferent to the accounts of wrongdoing – telling him repeatedly not to waste their time with his stories. Fishback knows if he gives their identities up, these folks will also be destroyed – so he’s keeping his silence, so far. The investigators imply that he failed to report abuses, so he may be charged, or that he is peddling falsehoods and will be charged for that. They tell him his career in the Army is over.

Meanwhile the peer pressure on him is enormous. I’m reliably told that he has been subjected to an unending stream of threats and acts of intimidation from fellow officers. He is accused of betraying the Army, and betraying his unit by bringing it into disrepute. His motives are challenged. He is accused of siding with the enemy and working for their cause. And it goes on and on. This is not surprising. My email in-tray tells me each day that I am a supporter of Islamo-fascism, a traitor, someone who should be deported and so on, for insisting that legalized torture in the U.S. is one of the most important issues we now face. But I’m a free man and they cannot silence this blog. Fishback, whose courage deserves a medal, is not. They are slowly smearing and breaking him. But I have a feeling we have finally found a man with the integrity, faith and patriotism to stand up to the culture of fear and brutality he is now enduring.

What I continue to find most perplexing about all of this is that even if you put aside all of the enormous legal, ethical, and moral considerations- just shelve all of them- we are left with a situation in which our soldiers have a tougher job to do and are in more danger. It is that simple.

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80Comments

  1. 1.

    DougJ

    September 28, 2005 at 2:22 pm

    This guy Fishback is a hero. I hope none of the posters here smear him.

    What is now being done to the hero, Captain Ian Fishback, who braved 17 months of obstruction, threats and intimidation by military brass to keep quiet, is a national disgrace

    Right on the money. I hate to agree with Andrew Sullivan, but even a stopped clock is right twice a day, I guess.

  2. 2.

    Clever

    September 28, 2005 at 2:32 pm

    What I continueto find most perplexing about all of this is that even if you put aside all of the enormous legal, ethical, and moral considerations- just shelve all of them- we are left with a situation in which our soldiers have a tougher job to do and are in more danger. It is that simple.

    I’m a bit confused by that…do you mean to imply that by bringing the allegations to light that the “tougher job to do and are in more danger” position comes about, OR that due to the actions described in the allegations the “tougher/danger” situation has arisen?

    Don’t want to put words in your mouth, just trying to sort out what I see as ambiguity.

  3. 3.

    TallDave

    September 28, 2005 at 2:34 pm

    Ask people in the military what they think of the guy. That will tell you everything.

    We are left with a situation in which our soldiers have a tougher job to do and are in more danger.
    The soldiers will say if you don’t let them engage in tough interrogations that makes their job tougher and more dangerous.

    Please, no one is confused about whether “beatings, broken bones, [and] murder” are wrong. That assertion is asinine.

  4. 4.

    Mr Furious

    September 28, 2005 at 2:35 pm

    Fine, even if you are willing to grant past incidents (the early ones at least) as the result of unclear parameters and standards, there is no possible excuse for not rectifying at least that part of the equation.

    The fact that there hasn’t been a clear code of conduct forged out of all the “uncertainty” means that is exactly what the Pentagon wants. No clear standards, plausible deniability at all levels and confusion at the bottom. If they came out and said, “no more of this, this and this,” everybody would know the score. The simple question is “Why not?”

    The answer is ugly.

  5. 5.

    tBone

    September 28, 2005 at 2:35 pm

    This guy Fishback is a hero. I hope none of the posters here smear him.

    I hope I find a million dollars under my pillow tomorrow morning. I think the chances are roughly the same, don’t you?

  6. 6.

    Doug

    September 28, 2005 at 2:37 pm

    Nope, conducting investigations in a manner that gives credibility to charges that American soldiers are torturing the citizens of Afghanistan and Iraq makes the lives of our soldiers more difficult. Leaving the standards of interrogation vague makes the lives of our soldiers more difficult.

    In return, I do not believe we get any significant amount of additional information. Information provided under duress is inherently suspect.

  7. 7.

    DougJ

    September 28, 2005 at 2:39 pm

    Tall Dave, I don’t think you know what you are talking about when you say “ask people in the military what they think of him.” The military is just like any other organization: the lower downs are afraid to speak their minds for fear of reprimand and a lot of the higher ups are in CYA mode all the time. I’ve never heard of any organization — whether it be a company, a church, or a government agency — that doesn’t operate that way. You call it cynical. I call it realistic.

    Presumably, the higher ups will smear him and the lower downs will be afraid to defend him.

  8. 8.

    Mike S

    September 28, 2005 at 2:39 pm

    The way I found this blog was through a link to it very early in the abuse scandal. While I disagree with John on a host of issues, even more recently than before, I think his position on this tends to be even more honorable than many on my side.

    I am more disturbed by this issue than any other that we face. I think the people that defend it, on both sides of the aisle, to be the worst examples of Americans that I have seen. Whether they are the “the terrorists are worse” or the “It isn’t that bad” people, they have completely forgotten what makes this country better than any other on the planet. We have always striven(is that a word John?) to be the best, most enlightened people anywhere.

    We have always tried to be a beacon for the world. Sometimes we have failed, but even then we learned from those lessons and become greater. My hope is that we will learn once again that we are on a horrible path and correct it. And I hope that happens soon before the soul of out country is damaged beyond repair.

  9. 9.

    DougJ

    September 28, 2005 at 2:40 pm

    I hope I find a million dollars under my pillow tomorrow morning.

    Looks like Tall Dave has already moved toward smearing him.

    Tall Dave: I think you’re a pretty cool, reasonable guy, but if you smear Fishback, you’re acting like an asshole.

  10. 10.

    SeesThroughIt

    September 28, 2005 at 2:41 pm

    This guy Fishback is a hero.

    Very true. Hats off to him–he deserves the utmost respect, and he is showing himself to be a bigger patriot and defender of America than any of the flag-wrapped assholes who sent him overseas in the first place and now seek to silence him.

  11. 11.

    TallDave

    September 28, 2005 at 2:42 pm

    How can anyone say the guy is a hero? Do you know for a fact what he’s saying is true? Or is your definition of hero “someone who says what I want to hear?”

  12. 12.

    Steve

    September 28, 2005 at 2:43 pm

    I see Andrew Sullivan and John Cole have formed up their fifth column yet again.

  13. 13.

    John Cole

    September 28, 2005 at 2:44 pm

    I’m a bit confused by that…do you mean to imply that by bringing the allegations to light that the “tougher job to do and are in more danger” position comes about, OR that due to the actions described in the allegations the “tougher/danger” situation has arisen?

    Torturing and abusing prisoners, many of whom (if not most) have done nothing wrong, and then releasing them into the population so they can spread their stories has created more ‘insurgents’ than you or I can count.

    Many folks in the Middle East and around the world already believe the worst about us- why confirm it?

  14. 14.

    Krista

    September 28, 2005 at 2:44 pm

    DougJ –

    Presumably, the higher ups will smear him and the lower downs will be afraid to defend him.

    That’s my guess, too. Frankly, I hope this Fishback guy is President someday. He’s got more balls, brains, and heart than all of Congress put together.

  15. 15.

    DougJ

    September 28, 2005 at 2:46 pm

    I *don’t* want to hear this.

    He’s a hero because he is standing up for what he thinks is right and taking no end of crap for it.

    Tall Dave: don’t be a right-wing smear monkey. You’re better than that.

  16. 16.

    guyermo

    September 28, 2005 at 2:47 pm

    The treatment of Captain Fishback doesn’t surprise me. It fits perfectly with the liberal view of Republican Standard Operating Procedures. Locate dissent, isolate it, and round up any potential conspirators. The often associated smear campaign is optional.

  17. 17.

    TallDave

    September 28, 2005 at 2:50 pm

    Well, let’s see how the facts come out on this. If what he says is true, the guy is a hero.

    But so far this reminds me more than anything of John Kerry’s Winter Soldier testimony: horrible, unsubstantiated allegations about the conduct of our troops that, if true, raise the question of why he didn’t report or prevent the actions he describes.

    Again, like Kerry, I think the truth will come from the men he served with.

  18. 18.

    DougJ

    September 28, 2005 at 2:54 pm

    Again, like Kerry, I think the truth will come from the men he served with.

    The Swift Boaters *lied*. Almost everything they said was contradicted by official papers. In many cases, it contradicted statements they had made earlier themselves.

    I understand why they did it: they didn’t like his Winter Soldier testimony, which as you say was quite objectionable in many ways. But the way they smeared his war record was a disgrace.

    Tall Dave: I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, you’re a decent guy but you’re disgracing yourself and your cause by thoughtlessly smearing military heros. I’m sorry to have to say it that way, but it is the truth.

  19. 19.

    Krista

    September 28, 2005 at 2:58 pm

    TallDave – my definition of a hero is someone who tries to find out the truth, and who stands up for what he thinks is right, regardless of personal cost. And in that way, he fits the bill. It’s already a known fact that there have been prisoner abuses. We’ve seen the photographs. How much abuse there was, and how far it went, is still unknown. But I definitely applaud this guy for at least trying to find some answers as to why this might be happening, and if standards had indeed been put in place to help prevent it, and if not, why not? Frankly, those are very reasonable questions — ones that the top brass should have been asking itself the second that the abuses were discovered.

  20. 20.

    John Cole

    September 28, 2005 at 3:01 pm

    Before the pile-on on TallDave begins in earnest, let me state two things:

    1.) It doesn’t matter if Fishback is an asshole if what he is saying is true. The reason I lend some degree of validity to his statements are his dogged pursuit of this matter and the context of the last couple years where abuse has occurred in virtually every prison/detention center we have run, whether it be Afghanistan, Iraq, or Cuba, and the fact that the fuzzy definitions did in fact cause this (IMHO).

    2.) The opinions of the men Fishback served in DO MATTER, as TallDave has said. The assholes at CID or any goons the Pentagon Brass may send on him- they don’t. Any bullshit you hear about past misbheavior that all of a sudden comes to light, or fitness reports that were once interpreted positively that now seem to have a negative tone- that is all bullshit.

    But the opinions of the guys he served with at the platoon, company, and battallion level- THOSE DO MATTER.

    So cut Dave a little slack on that…

  21. 21.

    TallDave

    September 28, 2005 at 3:03 pm

    The Swift Boaters lied.

    No, John Kerry lied. He admited that he lied about Christmas in Cambodia, and was contradicted by his own journal. Very little else of what the Swift Vets said has been proven wrong.

    Kerry also said:

    They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

    It turned out those were lies, Kerry had encouraged them to come up with stories that had shock value, and some of the “Winter Soldiers” making those claims had never even been in the military.

    Like you guys are doing here, Kerry was instantly feted as a hero and later elected Senator.

    But you go ahead. Me, I’m waiting for the facts this time. Won’t get fooled again!

  22. 22.

    Vladi G

    September 28, 2005 at 3:03 pm

    But the opinions of the guys he served with at the platoon, company, and battallion level- THOSE DO MATTER.

    What about the opinions of the guys who were in the military at the same time and may have seen him walking around once in a while, but who didn’t actually serve in close quarters with him? Because the Republicans taught me in the last election that those are the guys who REALLY matter.

  23. 23.

    TallDave

    September 28, 2005 at 3:04 pm

    Thanks John, as I’ve said it’s entirely possible the guy is a hero.

    I’ll keep an open mind.

  24. 24.

    SeesThroughIt

    September 28, 2005 at 3:06 pm

    The treatment of Captain Fishback doesn’t surprise me. It fits perfectly with the liberal view of Republican Standard Operating Procedures. Locate dissent, isolate it, and round up any potential conspirators. The often associated smear campaign is optional.

    True. I think the only reason we haven’t already gotten a “Fishback is gay” whisper campagin is because he’s in the military. Don’t ask, don’t tell and all that.

  25. 25.

    Krista

    September 28, 2005 at 3:09 pm

    TallDave – that’s all we ask. And as you ask us to scrutinize his assertions, we also ask you to scrutinize the criticism of him that will no doubt be coming out of the woodwork very shortly.

    Fair ’nuff?

  26. 26.

    Lines

    September 28, 2005 at 3:15 pm

    If you’ve known any military people that have served on semi-secret or secret missions, they will tell you of the destruction it would cause if they were to talk about what they have done. There is a constant level of fear throughout the military that keeps people silent. Fear of losing the pension, fear of losing medical coverage, fear of personal harm and/or death. It is a “brotherhood”, a dysfunctional family held together with commonality, fear and illusion.

    I would be surprised if Captain Fishback is ever heard from again.

  27. 27.

    DougJ

    September 28, 2005 at 3:15 pm

    No, John Kerry lied. He admited that he lied about Christmas in Cambodia, and was contradicted by his own journal. Very little else of what the Swift Vets said has been proven wrong.

    You’re committing the right-wing sin of oversimplification (I realize is is left-wing sin, but when it comes to smearing the right has it all over the left right now). Because he said somethings that weren’t true, that cancels out all of his war heroism. That’s just plain wrong.

    Some of the Swift Boaters provably lied. They either lied in their initial reports or later when they said the opposite. So whether Kerry deserved the medals or not, they lied. It’s that simple.

    I’m not going to pile on anymore, but you’re inviting a pile-on by making stupid statements about Kerry.

    I’m through with this argument. Go ahead and fling all the feces you want.

  28. 28.

    Clever

    September 28, 2005 at 3:15 pm

    Torturing and abusing prisoners, many of whom (if not most) have done nothing wrong, and then releasing them into the population so they can spread their stories has created more ‘insurgents’ than you or I can count.

    Many folks in the Middle East and around the world already believe the worst about us- why confirm it?

    Thanks, much clearer.

    As to “why confirm it,” that leads us down into a debate that doesn’t have a great answer. As you say, it does nothing for our credibility if we admit to it, but on the flip, it does nothing for our credibility if we do nothing…the questions/accusations have to be confirmed/refuted before any of this will really be put to rest.

    This soldier’s plea is one for standards. Yeses and nos. Rules. Clarification.

    But no one seems to want to do it because it might “look bad”. Things that might not fit into what standards may be clearly outlined might come to light. People in high places might have to answer for things they said/ordered. The accountability might finally give an end to the allegations…as truth can only be governed by standards.

    Many folks in the Middle East and around the world already believe the worst about us- why confirm it?

    Why not prove them wrong?

  29. 29.

    rayabacus

    September 28, 2005 at 3:18 pm

    The Swift Boaters lied. Almost everything they said was contradicted by official papers. In many cases, it contradicted statements they had made earlier themselves.

    I don’t want to rehash this – but I gotta. I think the only one that was proven to have lied in that whole SBVT thing was Kerry. He was the one that had to eat the “Christmas in Cambodia”, the lie that he and Alston stood up and repeated, etc. Not one single allegation by the SBVT was ever proven wrong. Not one.

    Until someone, anyone can bring proof that what Fishback says is untrue, then I will take him at his word. These allegationa are serious – extremely serious and deserve to be investigated. But please, do not conflate the Captain’w words with those of Sullivan’s, from some “unnamed” sources, using the code words “my sources tell me” or “I am reliably told”. That information related by Sullivan is not the same as those words directly from Fishback. Let’s see where the investigation takes us.

  30. 30.

    Veeshir

    September 28, 2005 at 3:24 pm

    The Swift Boaters lied. Almost everything they said was contradicted by official papers. In many cases, it contradicted statements they had made earlier themselves.

    Ummm, no. There was one case where a guy accepted a bronze star in 1973 without saying that there was no enemy fire and then saying there was no enemy fire in 2004. That’s the only thing that I’ve ever seen against them.

    I did see Kerry have to change a few of his stories and stop telling others. Nixon wasn’t President in 1968, Kerry was never in Cambodia despite being seared, seared into his memory are the ones I remember off the top of my head.

    If you want to argue that point, links, links, links. With proof.

    As for the current topic,
    Instead of resolving my concerns, the approach for clarification process leaves me deeply troubled. Despite my efforts, I have been unable to get clear, consistent answers from my leadership about what constitutes lawful and humane treatment of detainees. I am certain that this confusion contributed to a wide range of abuses including death threats, beatings, broken bones, murder, exposure to elements, extreme forced physical exertion, hostage-taking, stripping, sleep deprivation and degrading treatment. I and troops under my command witnessed some of these abuses in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

    I don’t know what to think about that. On the one hand, beatings and hostage taking should be, inherently, forbidden in our military. As for the rest, I’m not so sure.
    Death threats? Remember the Captian (Colonel?) who put a gun next to a terrorist’s head and fired it and said next one hits and got some necessary info on terrorist activities that saved some of our troops? I had absolutely no problem with that.
    Extreme temps? I’m untroubled by that unless it results in serious injury.
    Forced physical exertion? Awwwwwwwww.
    Stripping? Awwwwww, poor baby.
    Sleep deprivation? What’s the big deal with that. That’s been standard interrogation technique for ever. Again, no serious injuries.
    Degrading treatment? Awwwww, poor baby.

    As long as our guys aren’t actually, physically hurting them I have absolutely no problem with anything on that list except for beatings and hostage taking. As a matter of fact, I think that any hostage taking is despicable and should be a very serious offense. We don’t do stuff like that. I read about that happening once and I was disgusted. The guy involved got into fairly major trouble, as I recall.

  31. 31.

    SeesThroughIt

    September 28, 2005 at 3:25 pm

    Very little else of what the Swift Vets said has been proven wrong.

    For starters, they all liked to claim in those overly dramatic TV ads that they “served with John Kerry in Vietnam.” Kinda makes you think that they all knew they guy, right? Fought side-by-side with him? Actually, no. They didn’t. So by their logic, my dad, who served in the Vietnam war, “served with John Kerry.” Hell, they were all in the same conflict at the same time–what more do you want?

    Well, if you want the numerous lies of their TV ad taken apart, factcheck.org has you covered.

    If you want their book cleanly dissected, here ya go.

    The Swift Boat vets were liars and political hatchetmen who had been put up to the task by Republican operatives–the same Repubs who feted the Swift Liars post-election. I’m not saying that John Kerry is pristine-clean, either because unlike a disturbing amount of the population, I don’t see the world strictly in either/or terms, but if your primary attack on Kerry comes from the Swift Boat Veterans for Orwellian 527 Group Names, then you are pretty much dead in the water.

  32. 32.

    Mike

    September 28, 2005 at 3:26 pm

    I figure many will start smearing him when they realize he came forward because of his Christian believes, at least that’s what Andrew wrote.
    SOME on the Left seem to have a big problem with that these days. They can’t imagine anyone being stupid enough to believe in that sort of thing, sot they have trouble giving anyone that does any creedence.
    Other than that, I’m with Tall Dave, maybe it’s true, maybe not, I’ll keep an open mind about it, but I hope if the guy’s on the up and up, NOBODY on either side of the political divide smears the guy.

  33. 33.

    TallDave

    September 28, 2005 at 3:31 pm

    Actually, no. They didn’t.

    Actually, yes, they did. The Swift Vet book contains recollections of MANY people who served with Kerry.

  34. 34.

    TallDave

    September 28, 2005 at 3:33 pm

    Because he said somethings that weren’t true, that cancels out all of his war heroism.

    No, no, no. John Kerry was not feted for being a war hero. He was feted for being an anti-war hero.

  35. 35.

    Vladi G

    September 28, 2005 at 3:33 pm

    SOME on the Left seem to have a big problem with that these days. They can’t imagine anyone being stupid enough to believe in that sort of thing, sot they have trouble giving anyone that does any creedence.

    Well, I don’t know about *anyone*. I’m pretty sure *you’re* stupid enough to believe just about anything.

  36. 36.

    TallDave

    September 28, 2005 at 3:38 pm

    Veeshir,

    Thanks, those points had occurred to me as well. A lot of that stuff happens to our soldiers in training. Ask any Marine about being gassed. A guy I know had to do it four times because someone in his unit kept screwing it up. (Probably a safe bet that guy got a beating, too.) It ain’t the Girl Scouts.

    What bothers me is the guy’s complaint, basically, is “they couldn’t adequately explain exactly what was allowed and what wasn’t, so troops went around beating and breaking bones and murdering and we couldn’t tell for sure whether that was wrong.” That seems a bit tough to swallow.

  37. 37.

    rayabacus

    September 28, 2005 at 3:39 pm

    Seesthroughit

    Same old tired BS. Let’s see, I served in Nam at the same time that Kerry did and I didn’t serve with him. But I did serve with the same guys in my unit, although they were not in my squad – and we were on missions together, sorta like when all the boats in the unit would go out and Kerry’s boat was one of them. Sure all the guys commanding the other boats weren’t on Kerry’s boat with him, but they were beside him. The man that served on Kerry’s boat for the longest period of time (Gardner) did not support Kerry.

    Kerry is a character deficient charlatan that gamed the system to get out of Nam. A bruise on his arm and a piece of rice in his ass got him two of the three purple hearts and the third one defies belief to anyone that spent any time in a war zone.

    The “official documents” defense has long been debunked. The only “official documents” that Kerry has released has been those that support his position or obfuscate the position of his critics. It fairly well has been proven that he wrote the “after action reports” himself.

    There are a lot of honorable men who wear a lot of hard earned medals, including PH’s for real injuries that came forward to expose Kerry. Don’t smear them by calling them liars – just to defend the indefensible.

  38. 38.

    Mike

    September 28, 2005 at 3:39 pm

    “Well, I don’t know about anyone. I’m pretty sure you’re stupid enough to believe just about anything.”

    So your position is that there are no Lefties that are prejudiced against Christians?
    WOW.

  39. 39.

    Tim F

    September 28, 2005 at 3:42 pm

    TallDave, you might have a point, so far as holding your breath can be called a point, but picking the swiftboat scab was gratuitous. We don’t need to pick that stupid scab for the eleven millionth goddamned time.

  40. 40.

    Don

    September 28, 2005 at 3:45 pm

    I’d like to see this on posters.

    Some argue that since our actions are not as horrifying as Al Qaeda’s, we should not be concerned. When did Al Qaeda become any type of standard by which we measure the morality of the United States? We are America, and our actions should be held to a higher standard, the ideals expressed in documents such as the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

    No matter what else the story is with this fellow, I respect this man simply for putting this so clearly and succinctly. Amen, brother.

  41. 41.

    Davebo

    September 28, 2005 at 3:46 pm

    Tall Dave

    That seems a bit tough to swallow.

    That’s odd. After the broomsticks you’ve swallowed for these guys I would have thought that would go down easy!

  42. 42.

    Vladi G

    September 28, 2005 at 3:47 pm

    So your position is that there are no Lefties that are prejudiced against Christians?

    No. My position is that if they think that no can possibly be dumb enough to believe in a higher power, than they obviously haven’t met you yet. I thought that was pretty clear.

  43. 43.

    Mike S

    September 28, 2005 at 3:48 pm

    Actually, yes, they did. The Swift Vet book contains recollections of MANY people who served with Kerry.

    Having spoken with Oneill and Gardner on quite a few occasions, I can say they are consumate liars. Gardner spent time on every radio show claiming that Kerry was a murderer. Only problem was, Gardner pulled the trigger.

    O’Neill just spun like the Colson/Nixon protege he was.

  44. 44.

    Tim F

    September 28, 2005 at 3:55 pm

    I don’t understand why Republicans need to see Kerry not as a politician they liked less than the other guy but as some baby-eating man-demon. You shouldn’t need that much of an excuse to vote for your own party’s candidate.

    Who knows, maybe it has something to do with the other guy’s credentials.

  45. 45.

    ET

    September 28, 2005 at 4:00 pm

    Biggest reasons I belive Fishback

    1 – Would any of you put yourself out there like he is for a lie? I wouldn’t. It ain’t worth the hassel. And most people won’t put themselves out there like this for the truth.

    2 – What he is talking about is not just a one-off. Stories are going around and indicate something much bigger. And no I am not a conspiracy buff.

    He may be an ass – though I doubt it for the same reasons I mention in #1. Hero – he is getting there if not there already for me at least. We will see what happens when torture-apologists get though with him – some will stick some won’t.

  46. 46.

    John Cole

    September 28, 2005 at 4:01 pm

    RE: Swift Vets

    I really dont’ want to rehash this again, since this is such a nasty subject (I would almsot rather refight the Schiavo mess), but the idea that these Swift Vets did not serve with Kerry is what I earlier called the mother of all lies in a pretty thorough debunking.

    Also, I would like to point out that this is wholly true:

    You’re committing the right-wing sin of oversimplification (I realize is is left-wing sin, but when it comes to smearing the right has it all over the left right now). Because he said somethings that weren’t true, that cancels out all of his war heroism. That’s just plain wrong.

    Some of the Swift Boaters provably lied. They either lied in their initial reports or later when they said the opposite. So whether Kerry deserved the medals or not, they lied. It’s that simple.

    Whether or not the swift vets were completely honest, and whether or not Kerry was completely straightforward does not diminish (in my eyes, at least), Kerry’s heroism and service.

    There were and still are attempts to smear Kerry, and that is bullshit, but the problem was that Kerry invited inspection of his military record, and then any honest attempts to examine that record were simply written off as attempts to ‘question his patriotism.’ In other words, we were supposed to just believe waht they told us, and any attempts to look at his record were ast as ‘smearing him.’

    I am done discussing this tedious issue.

  47. 47.

    rayabacus

    September 28, 2005 at 4:05 pm

    I don’t understand why Republicans need to see Kerry not as a politician they liked less than the other guy but as some baby-eating man-demon.

    I am not a Republican. However I think you are mischaracterizing how opponents of Kerry are thinking. I don’t see him as you depict, I believe I see him as he is – a lying, grandstanding, charlatan that would do anything for powere, including dishonoring the 2 million vets that served in Nam. Other than that horrible testimony re the Winter Soldier project in the Senate I personally think the most repugnent thing he did was standing on the Senate Floor, as a sitting US Senator, making up lies about troops in Cambodia in order to influence US Foreign policy in Central America.

    He has a history of lying or to be generous, embellishing the truth. He is a man that lacks honor and character and I, as a Nam veteran (68-69), would abstain from voting if he were my only choice.

  48. 48.

    mrmobi

    September 28, 2005 at 4:06 pm

    Sounds to me like we’re going to have a nice swift boating of Capt. Fishback real soon now, if they let him go.

    Remember the Captian (Colonel?) who put a gun next to a terrorist’s head and fired it and said next one hits and got some necessary info on terrorist activities that saved some of our troops? I had absolutely no problem with that.

    Two things about this specious argument. First, there is very little hard evidence that torture (and yes, putting a gun to someone’s head and pulling the trigger is torture) actually yields reliable information. Common sense would lead you to believe that, since we are torturing/raping/killing people at Gitmo and in Iraq and probably have been since the very beginning, we would have rounded up thousands of potential terrorists, sleeper cells, etc. So where are the results?

    Second, Veeshir, you miss the most obvious point, which is that some, if not most, of the people subjected to these horrors are innocent, including women and children.

    So would your reaction to your wife or mother being stripped, put in a freezing cell, having a gun put to her head and the trigger pulled, be…. awwwwwww, too bad?

    I too came here the first time because it is one of the few conservative sites which came out early against torture. The bottome line for me in all this is we are becoming what we are fighting against.

  49. 49.

    srv

    September 28, 2005 at 4:07 pm

    This will only get more play if Gonzales gets nominated for the court. Otherwise, it’ll just get buried as another abuse story. Mastermind Company Clerk Cpl. England (never trained in detention practices) will now do her time in Leavenworth. Fishback will either recant or join her.

    The swift-boat truth marches on.

  50. 50.

    Tim F

    September 28, 2005 at 4:15 pm

    He has a history of lying or to be generous, embellishing the truth.

    If true, that simply means that he should be considered on a par with his opponent. Save for the part where Kerry didn’t wimp out and hide in a bar in Alabama.

  51. 51.

    rayabacus

    September 28, 2005 at 4:22 pm

    If true, that simply means that he should be considered on a par with his opponent.

    Want to cite a specific lie that Bush told. Links please. I’ll trade you link for link, lie for lie. You know Kerry ran the Boston Marathon and was in the stands when the ground ball went through his legs and also sat in on the cease fire in Iraq after the Gulf War. Link for Link.

  52. 52.

    SeesThroughIt

    September 28, 2005 at 4:28 pm

    Same old tired BS.

    True, that is what the Swift Tools promoted. But hey, I’m not the one who brought them up here.

    Incidentally:

    There are a lot of honorable men who wear a lot of hard earned medals, including PH’s for real injuries that came forward to expose Kerry. Don’t smear them by calling them liars – just to defend the indefensible.

    I’m not smearing those honorable men. Nor am I defending John Kerry. I’m simply pointing out the lies of the Swift Boat guys. Now that their lies have been pointed out for the umpteenth time, I’m content to let the whole saga go away again.

  53. 53.

    jg

    September 28, 2005 at 4:53 pm

    Keep in mind all this smearing of a Vietnam vet was so they could re-elect 2 draft dodgers.

  54. 54.

    wilson

    September 28, 2005 at 5:04 pm

    I still have open issues. 17 months is a long time to bounce around asking for advice. What other writings did F send out? Looks like he is not claiming to be an eye-witness to any abuse and yet he will not divulge his sources.

    He probably has no privilege to disobey an order to divulge, unless he has a 5th Amendment issue. Was he a company CO? It should be pretty easy to see all the NCO’s he had working for him, or reporting to him, or working with him. Then just interview them. Letter is a bit vague about timing. When did these things happen? I give him great credit for getting through WP and 2 combat tours with morals still what I consdier well-adjusted. He is putting in jeopardy a career that might have ended with a generalship.

    From what I have seen before, plus this, I am a) pretty sure that serious interrogation misconduct occurred under the 82d (or in their area) with tacit approval from Gen. Miller and those above him, and b) disgusted by it beyond belief. I just wonder how a JAG plus CID team is supposed to readily prove the crimes if F will not fully cooperate.

    In terms of specific interrogation standards, I like the idea of using the same standards and controls we use for our domestic police forces. If it would not fly in Compton, do not try to make it fly in Basram. Simple, easy to teach, comports with the golden rule. The CID knows how to comply with the Constitution; they did it all the time in 1981-85, when I worked as a JAG officer. MI folks can be taught the UCMJ rules, if they do not already know the limits. Just tell them to treat each suspect or PUC (pronounced “puke” I suspect) as if he (or she) were a US citizen from an urban area accused (or suspected) of a capital offense. Consider an SOP of recording and video-recording the releveant interactions.

  55. 55.

    jg

    September 28, 2005 at 5:47 pm

    The military won’t even stop soldiers from trading pictures of dead muslims for sex pic access.

  56. 56.

    Andrew J. Lazarus

    September 28, 2005 at 5:54 pm

    we are left with a situation in which our soldiers have a tougher job to do and are in more danger. It is that simple.

    Whether the job is more or less difficult for our soldiers doesn’t matter to the people in charge. What’s important is (1) allowing the Bush Administration to write its own rulebook (Geneva Conventions lose to Gitmo/Abu Ghraib practices; Bill of Rights loses to memos used to jail Padilla) and (2) perpetuation of Republican power, since no one else could be trusted with the increasingly tyrannical and corrupt government structure in place. For these purposes, vague rumors and a conspiracy of silence are far more effective. It’s that simple.

  57. 57.

    DougJ

    September 28, 2005 at 6:20 pm

    Ray and Tall Dave: just so you know, if you say two completely contradictory things, then one of them is a lie. Hence some of the Swift Boaters lied. It’s that simple.

    Ray, I have no use for anyway, but Tall Dave, you’re better than that. You know that there is a difference between truth and fiction and that the difference is not that what your guys say is true and what the other guy says is fiction.

    Ray, come back when you’re old enough to shave.

  58. 58.

    Ray

    September 28, 2005 at 6:28 pm

    DougJ

    This guy Fishback is a hero. I hope none of the posters here smear him.

    On this issue of timeing of this Report from Cat Limpfish I wrote the following to Human Rights Watch and actually received a response.

    What I sent:

    To whom it may concern,

    I’ll have to give you great credit on your new abuse report and the outstanding report which was timed perfectly for this past weekends anti-war/American march in DC and other cities.

    You are a great credit to mankind and your efforts are greatly appreciated and put our Multi-National Forces in Iraq in even greater jeopardy because of your beliefs and continued propaganda support to the enemies of a Free Iraq. Job well done.

    I also look forward to your continued reports about the abuse in Iran and other countries as these are a pleasure to read and contrast to what Multi-National Forces in Iraq are currently doing and we may be able to improve our current processes in Iraq if we have continued reporting on abuse in Iran to live up to.

    Again, you are great service to mankind. And you continued efforts will only surely put men/women in more danger the world over because your dedication and thoughtfulness in this highly sensitive manner.

    Thank you,

    Ray

    What I received back:

    Ray,

    Happy to help! The Bush administration is its own worst enemy and needs little assistance from us whacky lefties, but if we can assist we will.

    Regards,

    Marc

    I’ll leave Marc’s email off this post out of respect and it would be the “right” thing to do in any issue.

    If you look at what I wrote and what I received in reply what gave him an idea to smear as a “right-wing” hack. He doesn’t know me like: Narvy, ppGAZ, or DougJ I thought.

    So I sent this kind reply back since he really did take the time to respond. Shocka:

    Marc,

    Hi, thanks for the brief response. It’s not that you guys DON’T do an appreciated service globally, you do. The timing on this one though could have been better.

    Just an observation.

    Thanks for taking the time.

    Ray

    I don’t question the Capt’s story it may be as factual as it gets but I do QUESTION Human Rights Watch timing of the report. Either way you look at it when you compare the records on Human Rights Watch of say Iran and the United States. Iran has us beat hands down.

    What also chaps my ____ is that he automatically assumed that I was a “right-wing” hack who wouldn’t care about this issue.

  59. 59.

    Ray

    September 28, 2005 at 6:39 pm

    Torturing and abusing prisoners, many of whom (if not most) have done nothing wrong, and then releasing them into the population so they can spread their stories has created more ‘insurgents’ than you or I can count.

    Actually I think the non-STOP coverage by the NYT’s and other media outlets including Al-Jazeera of Abu Grahb, where the NYT’s gave the DOD a heads up and basically blackmailed them, into covering/reporting it than. All during the election year I’ll obvisouly add. But heh who am I right? Acutally cauased more “insurgents/terrorist” than the actual actions conducted by these few still small numbers.

    I’ll add where are the mass graves in Iraq? torture rooms? rape rooms? human Halliburton shredders? that the US and it’s allies have brought into Iraq? Where’s that story? Oh there is none. Why don’t we all dial up Human Rights Watch and get them hot on this.

  60. 60.

    DougJ

    September 28, 2005 at 6:41 pm

    Tall Dave: sorry to have lumped you in with Ray. That was unfair.

  61. 61.

    Ray

    September 28, 2005 at 6:43 pm

    With a user ID of ET

    What he is talking about is not just a one-off. Stories are going around and indicate something much bigger. And no I am not a conspiracy buff.

    I’m not buying this line. Sorry. Not. Doing. It.

  62. 62.

    Ray

    September 28, 2005 at 6:44 pm

    DougJ

    There are two “Ray’s” here now. Let’s be clear.

  63. 63.

    Ray

    September 28, 2005 at 7:14 pm

    I’m sorry I read to fast from and missed the following from the honorable Andrew Sullivan:

    My email in-tray tells me each day that I am a supporter of Islamo-fascism, a traitor, someone who should be deported and so on, for insisting that legalized torture in the U.S. is one of the most important issues we now face. But I’m a free man and they cannot silence this blog

    Well well well. Andrew does have a good point here. If war was actually declared on the correct enemy in the wrongly named war on terror than Cpt Fishback and Andrew would be the least of our worries. And the rest of us wouldnt’ have to worry about what Cpt Fishback reports or what Andrew Sullivan thinks.

    See this the mistake of bringing this up. If the greater good and the United States of America is to “survive” in the classical sense than there “are” some actions that are justified. This report though however, and if any of you have taken the time to read the report from the 3 so called SGT’s, you would see something more than just what the Capt reports. I’m guess though none of you have read it though.

    I’ll take the last paragraph of the first SGT on the Human Right Report here:

    We had these new high-speed trailer showers. One guy was the cleaner. He was an Iraqi contractor working on base. We were taking pretty accurate mortar fire and rockets and we were getting nervous. Well one day we found him with a GPS11 receiver and he is like calling in strikes on us! What the fuck!? We took him but we are pissed because he stabbed us in the back. So we gave him the treatment. We got on him with the jugs and doused him and smoked and fucked him.

    Now does the use of the word “fuck” mean he they actually raped these men? I’m not sure but you can read the whole report here:

    http://hrw.org/reports/2005/us0905/2.htm#_Toc115161401

    Or read the mysterious officer report here you get this gem:

    [A]t FOB Tiger [near the Syrian border] there were a lot of high value targets and …there was a Special Forces [SF] team nearby and I was going to talk to them just about career stuff and as I was going out I saw someone who I thought was OGA… go into the prisoner detainee holding facility and take one of the detainees out. And then they took infantry guards and they went into an unoccupied building that they could seal off, closed the door, and they gave orders to the infantry guards not to let anyone in. The reason I know this is because I was trying to talk to the SF guys and I asked them “Hey, do you know where the SF guys are?” and they were like “Well, maybe some of them are in here but you can’t go in there right now. They are with a prisoner.” And there were noises coming out of there. There could have been physical violence but [they were at least] threatening the prisoner,… doing things that weren’t actually causing bodily harm but threatening to do that.

    I talked to an MP who said that he was in charge of holding detainees and that the CIA would just come and take the detainees away. They would be like, “How many detainees do you have?” and he knew he has seventeen detainees but the OGA would be like, “No, you have sixteen,” so he’d be like “Alright. I have sixteen.” And who knows where that detainee went.

    Now tell me where I’ve seen this before? Oh yeah, it was one of the first couple episodes of that crap show “Over There”. Is that on still?

    Anyway you can’t get the feel for this fluff unless you go read the whole thing and not just what king “Andrew” reports as gospel and that he talks to spirits and all. Come on Andrew did you take the Iraqi Information Ministers correspondance course to come up with these wild acqusations? Really.

  64. 64.

    Joe

    September 28, 2005 at 7:26 pm

    I have a hard time with then Lieutenant Fishback’s 17 month journey in search of truth. On top of his four years at the Academy, the basic course, Ranger school, and two combat tours he couldn’t figure out that as an officer on the ground, it was up to him to make the call? And why did he stop at his battalion commander? I worked for his regimental commander in Afghanistan when he was a battalion commander and he was one of the best officers in the Army. I’m pretty sure he would have squared him away.

  65. 65.

    KCinDC

    September 28, 2005 at 7:57 pm

    John, I’m genuinely curious about why you think this story will do any more than all the others have done to “blow the doors off the inaction”. The White House is opposed to doing anything about torture, and I fully expect they’ll smear this guy like all other critics, and he’ll either recant or maybe be court-martialed, with the support of the vast majority of Republicans. Why do you expect this one to be different?

  66. 66.

    Cassidy

    September 28, 2005 at 9:11 pm

    “It is a “brotherhood”, a dysfunctional family held together with commonality, fear and illusion.”

    No, we’re held together by honor, love, and the knowledge that most people in the civilian world have no grasp of what we really do and sacrifice.

    People, I can appreciate the sentiments about rights and whatnot, but lets boil this down to a reality based scenario. In a small area, something large goes boom. The result of that boom is several dead soldiers. Now, the people in that area are on of two things: the people who set it, or bystanders who did nothing. There are no innocent civilians over here.

  67. 67.

    Defense Guy

    September 28, 2005 at 10:59 pm

    Cassidy

    I would submit that the large majority of the public understands this. Which is why great lip service will be paid to the understanding that this is wrong, but little or no action will be forced to change it. In short, the people still understand who is the real cause of evil in the part of the world you find yourself in.

    Thank you for your service and keep yourself safe.

  68. 68.

    Steve S

    September 28, 2005 at 11:16 pm

    It’s interesting how the Republican response to something like this is to accuse this man of dishonoring our soldiers… when it’s clear that Duty, Honor, Country mean more to him than most of our elected politicians.

    I wish him well in his quest, but our leadership has completely failed our armed forces, and most notably America.

  69. 69.

    Cassidy

    September 28, 2005 at 11:53 pm

    “Which is why great lip service will be paid to the understanding that this is wrong,”

    Makes you wish you had bought stock in the yellow ribbon company. :)

  70. 70.

    jobiuspublius

    September 29, 2005 at 12:12 am

    What a sick bunch we have here.

    …releasing them into the population so they can spread their stories…

    Many folks in the Middle East and around the world already believe the worst about us- why confirm it?

    Confirm it? To who? You think Iraqis need Newsweek, WaPo, or NY Times before they believe their fellow country men? You think that we have more credibility with them than they have with each other? We, who don’t have enough common sense not to bring dogs into their houses.

    Holy fucking hypocritical dilusion batman! You make all sorts of noise about the suffering of the Iraqis, yet, you just showed total lack of empathy. If the roles were reversed, I’m sure you would find the occupier to be very credible.

    Unfucking balievable!!

    Cassidy Says:
    …

    No, we’re held together by honor, love, and the knowledge that most people in the civilian world have no grasp of what we really do and sacrifice.

    …

    There are no innocent civilians over here.

    This is so so sick. I can’t even begin to explain.

    Civilian control of the military may be imperfect, but, I imagine the alternative is perpetually worse.

    When did Al Qaeda become any type of standard by which we measure the morality of the United? States?

    They didn’t. They became an excuse to unleash the same dishonor we’ve seen in the past.

    You guys should read a little about the Indian Wars and the US occupation of the Philipines. The US military has dishonored itself from time to time. And the public wasn’t so innocent either.

  71. 71.

    Kate yost

    September 29, 2005 at 1:38 am

    If Captain Fishback has been “sequestered” how did he end up on NBC? I did not see it. Maybe it did not happen, but I have read twice tonight that he was on NBC.
    I think that he is right about the confusion but wrong about the lengths that confusion brought. I do not think any amount of confusion or avoidance could lead anyone to think bashing an internee with a bat was acceptable after the uproar over the first Abu Grab pictures. Humiliation of internees outraged us, but it might be ok to break their legs? It seems to me that Congress (both houses) should have debated ( not held hearings) and decided what the limits should be as part of their oversight responsibilities after the first sightings. Open to all of us to hear and respond and help decide.
    I respect Captain Fishback’s struggles to get clarification and to bring abuses to official notice. He is doing his duty. I do not want him “sequestered”. I want our elected officials to do their duty and make the hard decisions.

  72. 72.

    dlnevins

    September 29, 2005 at 8:34 am

    Confirm it? To who? You think Iraqis need Newsweek, WaPo, or NY Times before they believe their fellow country men? You think that we have more credibility with them than they have with each other? We, who don’t have enough common sense not to bring dogs into their houses.

    Holy fucking hypocritical dilusion batman! You make all sorts of noise about the suffering of the Iraqis, yet, you just showed total lack of empathy. If the roles were reversed, I’m sure you would find the occupier to be very credible.

    Ah, jobiuspublius, I think you’re misunderstanding John Cole’s statement. He agrees with you! He’s not arguing that we should cover things up; he’s saying our troops shouldn’t confirm the Muslim world’s preexisting prejudices against the US by acting like animals.

    If you look through the Balloon Juice archives, you’ll see that this is one of the very few right-of-center blogs which has consistently spoken out to condemn the military’s abuse of Muslim detainees. Give its author some credit.

  73. 73.

    jobiuspublius

    September 29, 2005 at 9:11 am

    dlnevins Says:
    Ah, jobiuspublius, I think you’re misunderstanding John Cole’s statement. He agrees with you! He’s not arguing that we should cover things up; he’s saying our troops shouldn’t confirm the Muslim world’s preexisting prejudices against the US by acting like animals.

    I hope so. If I’ve failed to understand any one, then, I appologize.

  74. 74.

    Richard Aubrey

    September 29, 2005 at 12:37 pm

    The captain has done a good thing if what he says is true.

    Unfortunately, when he conflates harsh treatment–some of which is not as bad as Basic (or SERE) or fraternity hazing, or pre-season football practice in, say, Needles, CA–with real torture, he damages his case.

    If he had the real goods, he wouldn’t have to haul in other stuff to punch up his numbers.

    It’s an article of faith that torture doesn’t work. IMO, this is taught to our people because nobody wants the troops to be sweating out a moral judgment. Instead, there’s no point because it doesn’t work.
    However, torture has been a part of interrogation for millenia, and it’s hard to believe all the resources were merely for the amusement of sadists.
    There is a story that, in WW II, the Allies trained some Resistance leaders to coordinate with the coming invasion, but told them, and trained them for, the wrong place. Then dropped them into France after setting them up to be caught. The determination of these brave and motivated people only added to the verisimilitude of their eventual breaking.
    If this is true, the Allies depended, in part, for the success of D-Day on the skill of Gestapo torturers. If torture didn’t work, this would all have been a waste of time.

    As to the Geneva Convention, the combatants take themselves out of it by their actions. Making note of that is not in any way a crime. In addition, the guidance from the administration has been to treat them humanely anyway. But as a literal matter, the GC does not apply.
    I expect that those who yell the loudest about this know better but hope they’ll find somebody dumb enough to be convinced.

    The FBI apparently missed all this at Gitmo, while being slick enough to spot a couple of Koran missteps. Funny.

  75. 75.

    mrmobi

    September 29, 2005 at 2:32 pm

    Richard Aubrey:
    It’s an article of faith that torture doesn’t work. IMO, this is taught to our people because nobody wants the troops to be sweating out a moral judgment. Instead, there’s no point because it doesn’t work.
    However, torture has been a part of interrogation for millenia, and it’s hard to believe all the resources were merely for the amusement of sadists.

    Let me get this straight, Richard, torture has been a part of interrogation for millenia, so… we should just keep torturing? (fight them there so we don’t have to fight them here) It actually isn’t hard to believe all the resources were merely for the amusement of sadists, because in the prison guard/inmate relationship it is a natural outcome that the prison guard abuse his power over the inmate. The absence of rules forbidding torture only exacerbates the situation. We shouldn’t even need the Geneva Convention, we are supposed to be the greatest country in the world, the beacon of freedom.

    I would surely like to see the evidence of this imaginary unit dropped into France to be captured and reveal, under torture, the wrong information. You are kidding, right? It seems to me that the allies created a massive disinformation campaign to successfully disguise the real location and timing of the D-Day invasion. Better to give credit to a superb military intelligence effort than such fantasy. But go ahead, prove me wrong.

    Finally, we are not talking about hazing here. Can you not put a human face on any of these people? Are they all guilty? Is our military perfect, arresting ONLY the guilty? If so, why did we release 500 Abu Ghraib detainees three days ago, with 500 more to come? Are we allowed to terrorize people with dogs, rape them, subject them to extreme stress and then do our best Emily Littela and say, oh… NEVERMIND?
    There are some cold people in this group. I hope I never end up in your custody.

  76. 76.

    Ray

    September 29, 2005 at 4:34 pm

    mrmobi

    Boy your ID says it all.

    There are some cold people in this group. I hope I never end up in your custody.

    Or in the same “foxhole” let alone custody. Sheesh get a grip get a grip.

  77. 77.

    Richard Aubrey

    September 29, 2005 at 9:27 pm

    Mmrobi.

    KaChing!!!

    I never said we should keep torturing. Never said it at all. But I did figure that aomebody would react to the point that it could possibly work as encouraging it.

    Ka Ching, as I say. Somebody had to be the chump.

    So is there any other reason for the persistence of torture in interrogation?

    The story of the unfortunate Resistance leaders I got from a history prof in college decades ago. I have never read the book, but I am told that it is recounted in “Count Five and Die”.

    Having had a hit of sodium pentothal, I suspect it would work better than torture. Is it legal? Grunts are issued with morphine–or at least the medics are–and atropine syrettes if chemical weapons are expected. Why not have some of that around.

    I am familiar with a WW II platoon leader whose company had a schtick. With a newly-captured German, one of the wilder, larger guys would fake a beserker rage, storm at the guy and fire at him. For safety’s sake, they used grenade blanks. The others would wrestle him to the ground. The German would usually talk.
    One told of a bunch of tanks and artillery to the south. He was “sped to the rear” where either he clammed up or nobody believed him. About a week later, the Ardennes Offensive exploded out of the area to the south.
    There’s more to interrogation than the means.

    But, anyway, Mmrobi, thanks for the Ka Ching moment.

  78. 78.

    mrmobi

    September 29, 2005 at 11:44 pm

    But, anyway, Mmrobi, thanks for the Ka Ching moment.

    You are welcome Richard. But you are apparently more interested in these phony moments than in answering whether you think the victims of torture are human and worth any consideration. I guess they are just “the enemy,” right? What’s the answer Richard, is it ok for your wife or mother to be treated this way and released after we find out they aren’t guilty? Stop chewing on your bullets for a minute and answer the question.

    My answer, and the answer I think most people will give after they see the undoubtedly horrifying pictures and videos from the latest round of Abu Ghraib atrocities, is that we, as Americans, should not be in the business of murder, degradation and torture. It is cowardly and repugnant and you should be ashamed of yourself for your efforts to try and justify it.

    I’ll check out the book title. I hope you are wrong, but if the story is true, what kind of people would put allies in the field to be tortured and probably killed just to front a phony story? The ends justify the means to you, don’t they. Shame on you.

  79. 79.

    Richard Aubrey

    September 30, 2005 at 1:02 am

    Double Ka Ching, Mmrobi.

    Never said a word justifying torture.

    But I see you’re interested in taking the easy way out.

    If torture works, we have a moral conundrum. Use torture, with all that implies, or not. If not, US soldiers might die, probably will die, for lack of the information.

    Better to insist that torture doesn’t work, so the question doesn’t arise.

    But that provides a bit of a problem if torture might work, doesn’t it?

    You still haven’t answered the question of why all this emphasis on torture for interrogation through the ages if it surely doesn’t work.

    Not to brag, but my way is the difficult way. If I accept that torture might work, then I have a moral decision to make. Those who insist it does not and cannot work have no such worries. IMO, as I said, this is the reason for the doctrine that is taught to the troops.

    Got another one for you. Know a guy who, as a kid, read the book, The Nuremberg Stove. It’s a kid’s book, about being lost and then found, insecure and then secure, cold and then being warm. Once he got to fighting the Germans, as an Infantry officer, he was not secure, not warm but frozen and shaking much of the time, and mostly lost, since he was in charge and had nobody to tell him what to do. He began to obsess on the book. When talking to a captured German, he would ask them roughly who the author was, under the mistaken impression it had been a German. The author was an American, which made it difficult for the Germans to answer the question. As it happened in that war, the US doctrine was to leave a unit in the field until it was fought out. Patton said that when a division’s rifle platoons are down to thirty percent, the division needs to be pulled out of the line. British and other armies rotated the units every week or so. So did the Germans. The result was that the dirtiest, least sane, roughest-looking troops in theatre were Americans. When surrounded by these terrible characters, and an officer is demanding to know who wrote The Nuremberg Stove, a good many of the Germans felt themselves in the company of psychopathic murderers and would tell anything to make up for not knowing the author.
    Is that okay?

  80. 80.

    mrmobi

    September 30, 2005 at 2:41 pm

    The result was that the dirtiest, least sane, roughest-looking troops in theatre were Americans. When surrounded by these terrible characters, and an officer is demanding to know who wrote The Nuremberg Stove, a good many of the Germans felt themselves in the company of psychopathic murderers and would tell anything to make up for not knowing the author.
    Is that okay?

    Of course it’s ok. I don’t see, however, what capturing of prisoners in a stand-up fight between armies of two sovereign nations has to do with Abu Ghraib. As I said in an earlier post, a thousand prisoners will have been released from there in the next few days. How many of that thousand have been needlessly brutalized? We don’t know, because this is one of the most secretive governments we’ve ever had. But if you want evidence that torture is harmful to our troops, watch the goddamn news! We are unnecessarily creating thousands of zealots by this behavior, so it works against our troops just as it destroys our morality.

    I never said torture cannot work. Just that there is little hard evidence that it yields good intelligence. None of us wants to be put into a position where we lower ourselves by committing such atrocities.

    I looked up the title “Count Five and Die.” It’s a 1958 British/American film starring Jeffrey Hunter, directed by Victor Vicas, who served in the French army during WWII. Vicas was captured and interred at a German POW camp from which he escaped and fled to the United States. Couldn’t find anything about a book.

    But the point I take from your “Count five and die” story (and from much of the rest of what you write) is that you think it’s probably ok to torture if the circumstances are dire enough. Am I wrong about this?

    In any case, Ka Ching away. You and I will have to agree to disagree. Capt. Fishback’s word ring in my ears, we need more like him.

    Some do not see the need for this work. Some argue that since our actions are not as horrifying as Al Qaeda’s, we should not be concerned. When did Al Qaeda become any type of standard by which we measure the morality of the United States? We are America, and our actions should be held to a higher standard, the ideals expressed in documents such as the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

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