I guess now we know why Judy was in jail:
In two appearances before the federal grand jury investigating the leak of a covert CIA operative’s name, Lewis (Scooter) Libby, the chief of staff to Vice President Cheney, did not disclose a crucial conversation that he had with New York Times reporter Judith Miller in June 2003 about the operative, Valerie Plame, according to sources with firsthand knowledge of his sworn testimony.
The new revelations regarding Libby come as Fitzgerald has indicated that he is wrapping up his investigation and making final decisions as to whether criminal charges will be brought in the case.
Libby also did not disclose the June 23 conversation when he was twice interviewed by FBI agents working on the Plame leak investigation, the sources said.
Special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald apparently learned about the June 23 conversation for the first time just days ago, after attorneys for Miller and The New York Times informed prosecutors that Miller had discovered a set of notes on the conversation.
Miller had spent 85 days in jail for contempt of court for refusing to testify before the grand jury about her conversations with Libby and other Bush administration officials regarding Plame. She was released from jail after she agreed to cooperate with Fitzgerald’s investigation. Miller testified before the grand jury on September 30, and attorneys familiar with the matter said that she agreed to be questioned further by Fitzgerald today.
Meanwhile, in recent days Fitzgerald has also expressed significant interest in whether Libby may have sought to discourage Miller-either directly or indirectly through her attorney-from testifying before the grand jury, or cooperating in other ways with the criminal probe, according to attorneys familiar with Miller’s discussions with prosecutors.
This is going to get ugly and fast.
It will be interesting to see how much of our consensus project from this summer turned out to be accurate.
I guess it will also be interesting to see how many Republicans continue to defend these guys, and how many Democrats will back down from their previous treason remarks should this all turn out to be about obstruction of justice and conspiracy, rather than outing an agent.
Davebo
It would seem obvious that this whole thing is turning out to be about obstruction of justice and conspiracy in an attempt to cover up the outing of an agent.
But hey, it’s probably all Sheehan’s fault.
SomeCallMeTim
it will also be interesting to see how many Republicans continue to defend these guys
My bet: all of them. Your party is corrupt, John. It shouldn’t have sold its soul to the Southern Republicans for the sake of power, but it did. All you can do is vote for them, vote against them, or sit it out. Given your prior statements, I guess that means all you can do is vote for them or sit it out. Democrats and Independents will have to carry the real load.
Steven D
No matter what the prosecutor does, the underlying fact of this case is that someone(s) in the White House outed a covert CIA agent for political gain. Whether they did it in a clever enough way to keep from getting indicted is somewhat beside the point.
Kimmitt
Toldja she was a co-conspirator.
rafael
What Steven says, whether they can be indicted for outing Plame or not is irrelevant. They broke a CIA agent’s cover just to mess with her husband. That seems treasonous to me.
Krista
I don’t think that the facts will completely disprove the outing of the agent, but it probably will be a lot easier to make the other two charges stick. Some people might go to jail on those two charges, but as time passes, if someone asks, “Why did that guy go to jail?” most people will say, rightly or wrongly, that it was because of the outing of a CIA agent during wartime. It’s just a lot more memorable and newsworthy.
Mumon
You think George Tenet will say “never mind” if it’s “only” about obstruction and conspircy? After all, he’s why they kickstarted this thing to begin with.
All of which is to say, if “all” they have is obstruction and conspiracy, it will have meant that this is what Fitzgerald thought he had a case on. Motive, I suspect, can be implied, but the effects of the leak, well, we still don’t know that.
But we do know that lots of stuff that was secret was sent to a judge to put Miller in the can.
But this is a suprisingly balanced post…
Slide
Huh? What would they be conspiring to do if not outing an agent?
searp
There would have been nothing to cover up, no investigation, if the CIA hadn’t referred the outing to Justice.
Was Plame identified? Yes.
Could this only have happened by unlawfully disclosing classified information? Yes.
Is it likely that it was someone in the White House? Well, nobody has credibly pointed in any other direction.
Can this be successfully prosecuted? Maybe not.
Does this make John Cole’s post “evenhanded”? Definitely not. It is outrageous that so many “reasonable” people seem to think that Plame’s outing is unimportant.
The pros think it is serious John, why don’t you?
Slide
treason is a loaded word, but one definition of treason is:
Hmmmm…. blowing an undercover CIA’s network built over decades seems like betraying one’s nation to me and they definitly reneged on the oath they took when they were cleared for classified information.
Mike S
Now that would be a bomb shell.
Anderson
Yes it would, Mike S, but dare we hope for so much?
Saw a rumor that Bush & Cheney haven’t been real friendly lately, but that was via Atrios, so it must’ve been vicious slander.
Slide
Oh, some INTERESTING news. Judy Miller, after meeting with Fitzgerald, was requested to go before the grand jury AGAIN tomorrow. Oh, oh, that can’t be news for the “scooter”.
Steve S
Let me see if I get this straight. At best, the Administration is guilty of using classified information for political opportunism to try to publicly smear someone over a policy disagreement… and at worst, the Administration is guilty of trying to cover up the use of classified information for political gain.
And you seriously think it’s the Democrats who need to cool it and apologize?
This is just about the stupidest thing I’ve heard today.
Slide
No, at the worst the Administration was willing to blow a covert CIA network for the purpose to intimidate Ambassador Joe Wilson, and anyone else that may expose the lies this administration gave for going to war.
Mumon
Cheney! Cheney! Cheney!
Woo-hoo! Free at last, free at last, the American people will be free at last!
hilzoy
John: I’m with everyone else (and have taken this position since the Plame thing first happened): whoever leaked the fact that Plame worked for the CIA outed a CIA agent for political gain. It does not matter whether they knew she was undercover or not — if I shoot into a house without checking to see whether anyone is home, the fact that I didn’t know anyone was there does not excuse me. Whether or not they leaked her name, etc., etc., is equally irrelevant. Likewise, whether Fitzgerald can bring a case against them. That’s relevant to whether they should be in prison, but not relevant to whether they should be drummed out of politics permanently and spend their lives in some distant corner of the planet, doing good works in the hope of atoning for their sins.
We know that, according to Miller and Novak and Cooper et al, both Libby and Rove leaked her identity. Unless they are all lying, that’s all I need to know.
DougJ
That’s the real story here: how many Democrats have insisted on calling this treason when it is really just perjury, obstruction of justice, and conspiracy. When Karl Rove and Scooter Libby are convicted of perjury and criminal conspiracy, the Daily Kos crowd is going to owe the American people a *big* apology.
BillS
Cole, do you make monumentally stupid remarks like this just to see if anyone is still awake?
ppGaz
That’s right, because the Spuds have restored honor and integrity to the White House, as promised. Mission accomplished.
BillS
Lemme get this straight, DougJ.
The top guys in the Republican Bush Administration will probably get indicted for covering up treason and you think that the DEMS will be the ones who owe Americans an apology?
What will they apologize for? Losing twice to a bunch of lying thugs? Not being an effective opposition party in the face of a propaganda machine reminiscent of Goebbels?
Have a safe trip back to Bizarro World.
BillS
Soon to be a big question: Can Dubya pardon his henchmen before they go to trial?
DougJ
Why would he? It’s only perjury and criminal conspiracy. That’s one or at most two steps up from a speeding ticket.
Ancient Purple
Apologize for what? Having an opinion on what level of crimes have been committed?
CaseyL
Considering that the latest reports indicate Cheney might be implicated, and that Fitzgerald could conceivably be looking into the whole White House Iraq Group operation that ginned up the war in the first place…
… Dubya might need to pardon a whole lot of folks to keep his WH from a bigger-than-Watergate meltdown. Because, without a pardon and faced with perjury and obstruction charges, Miller/Libby/Rove et al. might decide to flip, and start talking about the lies behind the war, to save themselves.
ppGaz
That sort of America-hating is what got Dick Durbin in trouble.
ppGaz
I forgot; add to my last:
scs
Okay, I’m not defending any blowing of cover done by the Republicans, but just for argument’s sake, what should the Republican team have said if they felt that Joe Wilson was being biased in his report and that his Niger trip was being given too much credence? Wouldn’t the subject of Wilson’s wife have come up somewhere in that anyway?
Slide
Well, and I know this is thinking outside the box, how about them trying to argue the case on it’s merits? lol I know, I know, can’t have any of that now can we, especially since we all REALLY know that they were blowing smoke out their asses. They were just using the nuke angle to scare American’s into agreeing with their pet war. But scs why do you think Wilson’s wife should have come up anyway? What does she have to do with anything? How does her existance bear on what Wilson found out on his trip? (as well as U.S. Ambassador to Niger Barbaro Owens-Kirkpatrick and Marine Corps General Carleton Fulford) How on God’s earth does her saying he might be someone that could find out what the CIA, and presumably the VP’s office, wanted to find out about the Niger/uranium story?
I never did get all this about Wilson’s wife and how it supposedly may have hurt Wilson’s credibility? Why? She was a life long CIA undercover agent risking her life on a daily basis for this country. He was a life long government employee praised by Bush Sr for standing up to Saddam Hussein. They represent the very best of this country and we should all be very proud of their sacrifices. So again, somebody please tell me why their marriage would have any bearing on the credibility of what he found out in Niger?
Ms. Wilson’s outing had nothing to do with that. This was a shot across the bow of every person in the CIA or State Dept that even thought of going against the group of thugs that occupy the White house. Message: we will stop at nothing to destroy you if you go against us. They sent that message to Paul O’Neil, threatening HIM with revealing classified information to shut him up. They attacked Richard Clarke viciously when he was the one that was trying to sound the alarm of Al Qaeda. They go after with a vengence anyone straying from the party line. And anyone that does’t see that is either intellectually challenged or willfully blind.
Mumon
scs said:
Wouldn’t the subject of Wilson’s wife have come up somewhere in that anyway?
Why would it? Was there a connection? And why should it go public? There is no – absolutely no- evidence that the person who approved Wilson’s trip – who was not his wife- was unduly influenced by his wife.
Too many people say “I find it biased” to mean “I find uncomfortable facts.” You know what? Life is suffering, it’s uncomfortable, although perhaps people in George W. Bush’s position have never had the experience of that omnipresence of suffering to understand that you can’t always have what you want.
If, however, they had facts left out, they could have well cited them, but as we all know by now, subsequent facts corroborated what Wilson said. Even if you grant that “some facts were left out,” we now know that this war was mendaciously and incompetently handled. Even if you grant that Bush had good intentions and was out of the loop on Plame, you simply cannot expect that most Americans will forgive and forget Iraq, or that Democrats will not rightly make political hay out of it. If my employee did lied about a job and incompetently carried it out, I’d can him. You would too. So it should be with the whole Bush gang.
DougJ
Scs, you make a good point there. In fact, I’d be willing to go one step further. Let’s suppose, as you say, that Rove, Libby, et al. were just trying to set the record straight when they outted Joe Wilson’s wife. Then, really, the whole investigation is unfair and unwarrated. But then, at a certain point, they realize that they may end up going to jail over it. Isn’t it only natural that would then lie to Fitzgerald in order to avoid unfair prosecution? And then possibly get together to coordinate their testimony to avoid getting caught in these lies? It’s quite natural and understandable. Is this really the kind of thing people should be going to *jail* for?
Quite simply, there’s no way the American people are going to support throwing honorable, high level officials in jail for something as Mickey Mouse as this. I expect a big backlash against the Daily Kos crowd and their false claims of treason at some point. I expect a bit of a backlash against Fitzgerald as well for taking this all too far. And I expect that, confounding expectations, that this will strengthen rather than hurt presidet Bush.
Gratefulcub
DougJ finds a thread in which no one seems to know DougJ. Funny.
Lines
I love the old Dougj, its been so long its almost like a new Dougj.
I want to know if we’re turning the corner on Democratic apologies?
Is it just because Democrats won’t apologize for PlameGate that John Cole is still a Republican?
Bob
The Demos have been getting more and more gutless since so many of them got gunned down like dogs in the street back in the sixties, so I wouldn’t be surprised if some of them backed down and apologized for BushCo’s treason.
Can’t wait for Walter Mosely’s political treatise.
—
A legal question: Since Cheney is for sure a Satanic presence here among mortals, can he be indicted? An unindicted co-conspirator? Or can only his physical presence be brought to justice and not his evil essence?
slide
Isn’t it amazing that with all that is going on in the Plame investigation: Rove (the geniums) forgetting that he talked to Cooper, Libby failing to remember talking to Judy, Judy forgetting about talking to Libby in June, notebooks being found at the last minute, emails being discovered by lawyers, Fleischer forgetting that he read the secret State Dept memo on Air Force 1, covert CIA networks being shattered, covert CIA front companies being disclosed, etc. etc that John Cole would think that the Dems have something to apologize for in all of this? lol. Wow, give me some of that Kool-aid.
Lines
The Dems should apologize for the environment of corruption they started in the 80’s. Only then will the Republican’s see the truth about their own party.
Nikki
Watergate anyone?
mutterings
I must be living in the wrong neighborhood –
In my neighborhood perjury and conspiracy are way far up the ladder from a parking ticket. They are a pretty big deal especially from the people who are supposed to be leading my country.
In my neighborhood outing a CIA agent is treasonous behavior. In a time of war it is even more heinous.
In my neighborhood questioning the actions and policies of the current, or for that matter any, administration isn’t anti-American, it is an obligation of citizenship.
In my neighborhood we would all pitch in and get DougJ a keeper.
DougJ
The investigation is in its last throes. Why won’t the media start reporting all the *good news* about the Plame probe?
We have now trained five Iraqi battallions to out intelligence agents who are married to critics of the new Iraqi government. That’s just the kind of metric that should shut up all the America-haters on the far left.
Treason is on the march.
scs
Yes the whole thing seems clumsy. Why couldn’t Rove and Libby just say Wilson’s wife worked for the “government”, recommended Wilson, and then say they are not allowed to say what capacity she worked in? For their purposes, that would have been just as good as saying she was in the CIA as the reporters would have figured it out and it would have not gotten themselves in trouble. I still don’t totally believe that they did it to punish Wilson cause it really doesn’t make sense for them. How is telling a reporter about the wife who USED to be in the CIA going to hurt Wilson more than it hurt themselves? Even THEY could have figured out that. Or was it just some blind Mafia type vengeance and they couldn’t control themselves?
jobiuspublius
Remember forged Niger documents? Here’s a little something to feed suspicions and polish ye olde tin foile hat. Free Masons!