Which, in this case, is oil:
Inflation at the wholesale level last month soared by the largest amount in more than 15 years, reflecting the surge in energy prices that occurred following the Gulf Coast hurricanes.
The Labor Department reported that wholesale prices jumped 1.9 percent in September, led by surging prices for gasoline, natural gas and home heating oil after the widespread shutdowns of refineries and oil platforms along the Gulf Coast. Food prices, which had been declining, posted the biggest increase in 11 months as the price of eggs shot up by a record amount.
Meanwhile, Fed. Chairman Alan Greenspan tells us we better just learn to deal with it:
US Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan said the world would have to learn to live with high oil prices and their negative impact on economic growth “for some time to come”.
“Although the global economic expansion appears to have been on a reasonably firm path through the summer months, the recent surge in energy prices will undoubtedly be a drag from now on,” Greenspan told business leaders here…
Greenspan also said the impact of high oil prices on economic growth and inflation was likely to be less severe than during the 1970s oil price spikes.
Taking into account inflation, the average price of crude oil was still below the peak of February 1981 in the wake of the Iranian Revolution, when oil hit the equivalent of 75 dollars a barrel in today’s prices.
Oil is only two-thirds as important as an input into world gross domestic product now as it was three decades ago, he noted.
This meant the recent surge in prices “is likely to prove significantly less consequential to economic growth and inflation than the surge in the 1970s.”
More bad news for the administration, particularly the way the economy has been humming the past quarters.
Nikki
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Rusty Shackleford
More bad news for the administration, particularly the way the economy has been humming the past quarters.
Humming for whom, Unocal?
Mr. Cole, do your hands ever grow sore from clapping so loud?
Brad R.
Meanwhile, Fed. Chairman Alan Greenspan tells us we better just learn to deal with it…
And he’s right, too. He’s not about to cause a recession with high interest rate hikes.
John Cole
Umm. I hate to break it to you all- the economy is firing on all cylinders.
There may be some weaknesses in specific areas, and you may not like the fact that wage earners are not benefitting as much as many thing they should, but that does not at all get in the way that the economy has been growing, jobs are being added, and growth has been consistent and steady for, well, a while now.
DougJ
John, you’re just as fascinated by that overstock.com woman as I am, aren’t you? Did you read that article in Slate about her?
Mr Furious
Just keep waiting, Rusty. It’ll trickle down…
Doug
In my humble opinion, a humming economy is just about worthless if it doesn’t benefit workers (i.e. ordinary Americans) to any significant degree. In other words, if most of us don’t benefit, who cares? In such a case, it is something that sounds positive, but is actually largely irrelevant, politically speaking.
Lines
How can an economy be “humming” if the workers are earning less? Where is the money going? Certainly doesn’t seem to be R&D or benefits.
ppGaz
Yes, the economy is a hummer all right. Unfortunately the average citizen is enjoying it mostly by going into debt.
Darrell
Unemployment around 5% as it is now, is very good by any historical measure. Wages are up, just not up by much. In the meantime, the average person saw a sharp drop in his mortgage payment over the past several years, lots of specials in buying new cars, internet has made other purchases drop in price for consumers. The competitive nature of our economy has helped keep prices in check for consumers and business with energy prices being the exception
Wow lines, you really seem to know what you’re talking about
ppGaz
You give good hummer, Darrell.
Darrell
I’d like to see someone tackle the issue of illegal immigration’s impact on wage growth, in many areas causing wage shrinkage for the average worker. Just one example, skilled carpenters (not carpenter ‘helpers’) in Houston can be hired for $11/hr.. Without the flood of illegals, those wages would be significantly higher
ppGaz
The Dow Jones Industrial average has voted on Darrell’s hummer, and the returns are in:
During the reign of Chimpy Spud, the Dow has … broken even.
Now THAT’S “firing on all cylinders!”
Ancient Purple
Which is the rub. When cost of living increases at a greater rate than increase in wages, you see less take-home pay and/or disposable income.
Sorry if I can break out the champagne and celebrate the “humming” economy when my take home pay is, for the third year in a row, less than the previous year.
John S.
Source? Supporting evidence? Anything to bad up this bold claim besides a few recent index numbers? Trends over the past five years?
Throw us a fraking bone, Colie. Your appeal to authority fallacious agrument (i.e. because I say so) isn’t cutting the mustard for me – or millions of other Americans who don’t seem to be thrilled with where they’ve gone so far this decade.
John S.
Yes, it’s the illegal Mexicans’ fault.
It has nothing to do with the greedy companies and business owners that are so eager to higher illegals (illegally) and force naturalized citizens to choke on lower wages…
Lines
If I look at the data around the number of employed vs. the number of jobs, the number of employed hasn’t gone up. The number of jobs is offsetting the unemployment rate. With more and more people working multiple jobs, there are actually fewer people working those jobs..
And Darrell, I work in R&D, have for many years around the country. There are very few corporations putting funds into aggressive R&D, most is going towards marketting and buying this week’s CEO.
John S.
I’m an Art Director for and Ad Agency, and I can assure you that companies are being frugal with their marketing dollars these days (or expecting us to compete with Indian labor).
So in the end, I think it’s mostly going into buying this week’s CEO.
ppGaz
Stats, please. The last time I looked, the sum of legal and illegal immigration, expressed as a percentage of total population, had been relatively flat for about a century.
SeesThroughIt
Well, wages are certainly up for CEOs to the tune of 431 CEO dollars earned for every one non-management dollar earned. To be fair to Bush, though, that’s not the highest ratio. The high mark was 525 to 1. Oh, wait…that happened in 2001. Well, there must still be a way to blame that on Clinton, right?
Why can’t you paupers applaud for the continued shining success of the rich? We know how generous the rich are…I’m sure they’ll see fit to kick down a few bucks now and then.
Sorry, sorry, if this post is too snide for some, then perhaps they’d like to read this article that provides the sobering truth. Here’s the first paragraph, emphasis mine:
And it goes downhill from there. I guess the economy is humming along–on a rocket sled headed toward a massive crisis.
Lines
“Humming right along in search of good times and good news …”
The Muppets Do the White House?
jg
Mortgage payments are going down? Maybe if you refinance. Never have heard that one as an indicator of economic health before. Specials in buying new cars? Serious? GM and Ford giving away vehicles they can’t sell is an indicator that the economy is humming? Internet? Just wait until they impose a tax on internet purchases, that’ll change. Don’t forget that internet purchases means less store purchases which means less employees which means higeher unemployment. But thats OK. Walmart is opening another store and you wingnuts LOOOOOOVE Walmart. They give to republican causes.
Dave Ruddell
Okay, but that doesn’t really address Darrell’s argument. I’m assuming that he’s arguing that there is little difference between the wages of a legal immigrant and a native born American, so the total immigration level (legal and otherwise) is not particularly relevant. It’s the number of (lower-paid) illegals that matter.
That’s not to say that I agree with Darrell, I just don’t think your information impacts on his assertion.
ppGaz
I asked him for facts, specifically to support his “flood” of immigrants, and also to support his claim that wages are being held down by that flood. I don’t believe either claim — the flood, or its putative effects.
Rome Again
Actually, no you wouldn’t Darrell. Many of the employers who are hiring these illegals are Republicans. I used to work for at least one, he is a close friend of Bush too!
Dave Ruddell
Honestly, I’m not trying to start the Darrell Protection Society, but again, this is not addressing his point. Does illegal immigration depress wages (at least in certain sectors)? Whether or not this helps or hurts Republicans is not relevant to the main question.
I do agree with ppgaz though, that’s it’s incumbent on Darrell to provide some sort of citation. If you want to make an allegation, it’s up to you to support it, not your opponents to refute it.
Rome Again
Well, also not to be a member of the Darrell Protection Society, but living here in SW Florida, I see lots of illegals. That doesn’t mean that their numbers have increased all that dramatically, I can’t say. I do know that their numbers are quite pronounced here where I am.
The company I (sort of) cited above only hires illegal foreigners. I worked in the office, and assisted the office manager who was responsible for HR. I had access to the employee files. I’ve seen their fake SS cards which change names every six months, and held discussions about it with the office manager who stated that she was directed to accept that as valid by the employer. I’ve also had the privilege of seeing fake names that changed on SS Cards in another company here.
Most of the construction industry companies where I am only hire foreign work crews, and often they overlook the illegal work status so they can pay them cheap wages.
We have apartments here that house 15 foreigners at one residence. The parking lots are filled with 4 times more cars than the alloted car space for an apartment building should hold.
Perhaps they aren’t in Minnesota, or South Dakota, but I can tell you they are here in Florida.
ppGaz
There’s no doubt that there are pockets and niches here and there, particularly in the border states, that are impacted at times by spikes in immigration (whether legal or illegal, for the purposes of this blurb, not relevant).
The question is whether there is a general effect, whether the effects cut across skills and trades, whether the effects are anything but scattered and localized. I seriously doubt that they are. I’d wager that what Darrell is pimping is anecdotal “evidence” to prop up a grandiose construct, namely, a thriving and growing economy whose only downsides are to be blamed on Democrats or on “soft” immigration policies.
There may be numbers out there to fool some people into thinking that we are enjoying a thriving and growing economy, but I don’t see much evidence that this thriving is finding its way onto the kitchen tables of average Americans when they sit down to pay their bills. People who own stock in BigPharma or BigHMO or BigEnergy might be doing better than some. I’m sure that Mssrs. Frist and Cheney are not living paycheck to paycheck, but unless we draw those guys with piston-shaped heads, I don’t see how we are “firing on all cylinders.”
John S.
Yeah, Rome, we sure do have a fair number of illegal immigrants here in Florida, even on the SE coast where I am. Of course, that doesn’t include the vast number of Cuban ‘refugees’ that wash up on shore, since they are seeking political asylum.
It’s curious to note that at the time of the last census, over 65% of Miami-Dade county was Hispanic, with a majority of those citing Spanish as their first (and often only) language. But we definitely don’t want to start scrutinizing all the
illegalrefugees that are down here thattake jobsvote Republican, now do we?Rome Again
and there is absolutely nothing in your statement that I disagree with ppGaz.
Dave Ruddell
Geography certainly will play a big part in how visible illegal immigration is to you. I live in Toronto, and while I’m sue we have a number of illegal immigrants here, it’s not like we’re an easy choice, since the only land border we share with a foreign country is with the US. Of course, there are all those damned yankees sneaking across the border to try and get free health care. Back, I say, back!
Rome Again
I have to admit John S, that I consider myself to be quite liberal, but when it comes to immigration, I’m much more moderate/right than I sometimes care to admit. Perhaps that is because I see the affects of illegal immigration in Florida.
I want to add, as much as I am all for allowing freedom for all Americans (that does not include illegals btw, if I have to register and pay taxes here, so should they), I’m getting a little tired of trying to read billboards in spanish. This is certainly not the America I grew up in.
Rome Again
Sorry, the strikeouts didn’t copy. By the way, I just received something of an epiphany. It seems to me that Republicans are upset at illegal immigration, yet, as you stated, in SE Florida, these foreigners who do become citizens vote Republican. Doesn’t that sound like something of a paradox? Or is it because the illegal ones are not eligible to vote?
I never spent much time thinking on it before.
Darrell
Despite your dishonest claims, I never asserted that the effect of illegal immigration “cut across” all skills and trades. That’s ppgaz’s typical strawman crap. I do think a number of skills and trades are seriously undercut by illegal immigration though. Wages of agricultural workers, construction industry workers, some manufacturing and retail to name some of the industries affected. I don’t have studies to prove that wages in the above mentioned industries have been depressed as a result of illegals, but I think anyone with eyes can see it. Not only those living in border states, but other areas of the country too.. illegals are having an impact on the wages for a lot of average working guys.
I always hear, “illegal immigrants do the jobs Americans won’t take”. Bullshit. The illegals are willing to work for less money. Don’t tell me there are not tons of college students and other American workers willing to do hard agricultural labor and other difficult work if the money was right..
As for Republican and Democrat business owners who hire these illegals to save money and then pass on the social costs of these illegals to the rest of us ($7,000+ per child per year for public schools, health care costs for illegals, etc, etc), screw these employers. I want them prosecuted. I could care less what party they belong too, and I’ll bet a huge majority of Repubs along with a lot of Dems feel the same way
Darrell
And that nails the crux of the problem. With today’s technology, it is now damn cheap to implement biometric ID cards and on-line databases with fingerprints and other such information if we were serious about cracking down on illegal immigration.
Employers knowingly accept fake ID’s because they can get away with it. I’ve got all kind of data linked to my driver’s license, yet a paper SS card is still the norm? It’s f*cking unbelievable
Darrell
If an illegal immigrant working 50 hours week at $10/hour (which equals $25,000/yr assuming no interruption of work) has only 3 or 4 children, the cost to educate his children ALONE is $20,000+ a year. DO THE MATH. The employers hiring these illegals are able to pay them less wages, because they are passing the social costs down to Joe taxpayer
And that doesn’t begin to touch healtcare costs including emergency room visits which are not real ’emergencies’, welfare, the costs for those illegals who have to be incarcertated, police services, and on and on.
Rome Again
I don’t have a problem with fingerprints, but I have a serious problem with biometric cards (religiously speaking). I don’t want a biometric national ID card. There is already plenty of information out there that we don’t need a new national ID card, what we need is better database management of the information we already have.
ppGaz
Darrell, you said this:
I think we can judge for ourselves who is full of crap here, Darrell. Sometimes you are better off to keep your mouth shut and have people wonder if you really are as big a horse’s ass as you seem. As opposed to opening your mouth, and having us be absolutely sure.
I will say one thing, though. You certainly aren’t shy about displaying your amazing stupidity and dishonesty, man. Props to you.
BTW, are you claiming that “illegals” are holding down skilled carpenter jobs? That means that your “flood” is a bunch of skilled carpenters swimming across the Rio Grande to find employment in the US? Are they bringing their “skilled carpenter” tools with them, because as far as I know, these tradesmen bring their own tools to the job?
You are so full of shit, man. Go away.
John S.
Rome Again says:
Haitians, who come from a completely chaotic country, are routinely denied the privelege of citizenship when they come here illegally. They typically vote Democratic.
Cubans, who come from a completely Communist country, are routinely granted the privelege of citizenship when they come here illegally. They typically vote Republican.
It may
come as a shockmake sense to you that the Republican agenda on immigration may have something to do with politics, but there it is.Rome Again
On my coast, years ago, we used to have a lot of cubans (many of the maids that used to come into Publix and order meats at the deli where I worked were cuban maids of the rich snowbirds here). I moved away from here for a number of years, when I came back, they seemed to be replaced by mexicans. If I remember correctly, the mexicans don’t seem to vote much at all.
DougJ
Hate to say this, but on this wage thing, Darrell is almost certainly right — of course illegal aliens depress wages. Can’t follow the rest of the thread here, but he’s certainly right about that part.
Darrell
Fingerprints are biometric information. I think we could reasonably draw the line on biometrics limitiing it to fingerprints. You posted that you’ve seen the fake ID’s, you know the scams. It’s absurd that a paper SS card is the norm. Look at the scanne info on your drivers license. Changes in how employers are required to validate ID’s need to be made with the legal muscle to fine, prosecute, and/or jail those employers who fail to comply
Rome Again
yes, but I don’t want it to be any more detailed than that. I agree that SS cards (which can be easily faked) are a major problem.
ppGaz
For skilled carpenters? Proof, please.
Darrell
None so blind as those who will not see
John S.
I was referring specifically to the situation here in SE Florida, and thus far our Mexican immigrant population pales in comparison to the primary two groups I mentioned.
On the SW coast, it is no surprise that you have a sizable Mexican population due to your proximity to their border. In their case, they don’t usually get here by sea, so their illegal passage into this country is much easier. Once they arrive (if illegally) they usually stay under the radar, so of course voting isn’t really an issue for them.
The issue stems from the fact that both Haitians and Cubans leave their countries for political reasons, and therefore are apt to want to vote here. Mexicans come here mainly for economic benefit, so politics aren’t as much of a priority.
And yes, I am generalizing.
Rome Again
Not sure about skilled carpenters myself. I was involved in a construction field that involved concrete pavestones for driveways and pooldecks and such, not carpentry.
John S.
I beg to differ. Illegal aliens do not cause lower wages. The people that know they can hire them for lower wages are the ones responsible for depressing wages.
It’s a classic ‘chicken or egg’ cauasation dilemma, but certainly if people weren’t so willing to hire cheap labor, the presence of cheap labor (that would remain unemployed) would have little effect on wages.
Darrell
Some illegals arrive here with skills. Others gain experience on the job: how to operate certain equipment, machinery, masonry and other construction skills, etc, etc.
Davebo
Darryl,
Do you live in Houston? And just how do you define the term “carpenters”?
You could probably hire someone calling himself a carpenter for $11.00 an hour today in Houston. But don’t let him or her near your home.
And don’t expect him to have any tools short of perhaps a hammer.
And a carpenter with no tools, is also known as a laborer.
Darrell
It’s both. Illegals are willing to break the law to enter the country because employers are willing to illegally hire them. As of now, the employers cover their asses by claiming “he showed me an ID”. That is the crux of the problem imo. It makes the most sense to crack down on the employers. With present technology, there is no excuse why fingerprint validation should not be required
Rome Again
Well, I do know that at least some of the workers gained masonry skills here,whether they brought those skills with them I cannot say (something tells me that in the interlocking paving field, probably not). At least one of the crew chiefs was considered to be a very good mason, and he was with the company for quite a number of years when I came along. I can buy that.
Then again, there are a good number of foreigners (illegal or not, I cannot say) who do nothing more than blow leaves around for landscaping companies. These “blowers” are everywhere down here, and they are always foreigners.
Darrell
Davebo Says:
Yes I do live in Houston, and I have friends in the construction business here. What’s more, I can read employment ads and how much employers are offering. sorry you’re so ignorant about the realities of the wage situation.
Davebo
Yeah Darryl. I’m ignorant because you have friends in the business right?
News flash Darryl, I’ve hired over 14 carpenters here, in Houston, in the past month.
Framers, trim carpenters, even craters.
I’m sitting in a warehouse now with over 30 carpenters crating oilfield equipment for export. These are packing carpenters, not trim or framing carpenters, and the lowest paid of them earns $18.50 an hour with time and a half working 65 hours a week.
But hey, if your “friends” say so, believe what you will.
ppGaz
In other words, Darrell, you’ve shown no evidence that the wages of skilled carpenters are being driven down by illegal immigrants.
I’d like to see evidence that “skilled carpenters” can be had generally anywhere in the southern half (the construction-intense half) of this country for $11 an hour, Darrell. These are skilled tradesmen who bring their own tools and generally their own vehicles to the job. When you find this evidence, you’ll need to include the information that also shows that a “flood of illegals” has driven down the wages of these skilled tradesmen. That would be a flood of illegal skilled carpenters with tools and vehicles, I presume. As opposed to a “flood” of skilled carpenters in general, flocking to the region and driving down wages. As opposed to states’ repeal of “prevailing wage” laws (aka “little Davis-Bacon” laws) which made it easier for itinerant (not alien) workers to move from state to state and bid down the wages for construction workers. According to an organization which opposed the repeal of such laws, the average “construction worker” salary in areas with such laws was close to $13 an hour ten years ago …. “skilled carpenters” are among the high-paid tier of such worker, not the lower.
John S.
Davebo-
Did backhanding Darrell in the face feel good?
I bet it did.
DougJ
Fair enough. So maybe you think that the crack-down should be on employers, not the workers.
I’m an open border, free trade kind of guy, so I can’t get that excited about this whole issue. But I think that preventing employers from hiring illegal aliens or even guest-workers should be on the agenda of anyone who considers himself “pro-labor”.
Darrell
Bureau of Labor and Statistics data for Houston, TX says the median average hourly wage for a Carpenter in Houston is $13.34/hour… “average” meaning the carpenter probably has 10 years experience, others are paid less. Union jobs drive up that meager hourly $13 average. $11/hour for skilled carpenters in Houston is right
Darrell
Does it feel good to know that you now look like a jackass? just curious
DougJ
One more thing: the Darrell-bashing is out of hand here. The guy’s a good sport to argue with ten of you at once. Why the need to cheap shot him all the time?
ppGaz
Sorry, Darrell. You are dodging. Where is the evidence that the wages of skilled carpenters is being driven down by your “flood” of illegal immigrants?
Because you’ve stuffed about two linear feet into the size of this thread and produced no evidence for this whatever.
Davebo
John S.
Hey, I didn’t back hand Darryl, or his brother Darryl.
But I do hope he doesn’t decide to remodel his home anytime soon.
For what it’s worth, according to payscale.com a general carpenter with five years experience working in Houston Texas will earn on average 33,000 per year with a low end of 21,000 and a high end of 41,000.
Darrell
Without the union jobs inflating the averages, that $13.34 number for median average hourly wage for a carpenter would be a bit lower. John S, don’t be so gullible as to believe everything someone posts on the internet. By doing so and gloating on that false basis, it reveals you to be the dumbass that you obviously are
ppGaz
From the guy who can’t post two days in a row using the same handle.
Darrell
The dumbass has been proven wrong and he doesn’t even know it
DougJ
Hey, ppgaz, I don’t mean you: your insults are like my fake posting, a joke to spice things up. But Darrell makes a pretty good attempt for a Bushie to make a rational argument, at least sometimes. He’s not Stormy, you know.
Davebo
“Without the union jobs inflating the averages, that $13.34 number for median average hourly wage for a carpenter would be a bit lower.”
Union Carpenter jobs in Houston are driving up the overall pay scale??
You mean all three of them?
Give me a break.
And Darryl, 33k a year works out to roughly $16.00 an hour.
See, even dumbasses can do basic math.
ppGaz
Suppose we take “skilled” to mean average, and up? That puts these tradesmen at about $15-$19 an hour, depending on exactly how you configure your work year. And these people bring their own tools to the job in my town.
Darrell claims that a “flood” of illegals has kept these skilled tradesmen down to $11 an hour in Houston.
I assert that he can’t show that (a) there is such a flood, or (b) that such a flood has had that effect on the wages of “skilled carpenters”.
ppGaz
Oww! That’s damning with faint praise, compadre. Funny, though, I must admit.
Davebo
And speaking of Texas…
Survey USA has it’s new 50 state poll out.
Dubya is definately taking a pounding. Even at home.
Texas From Plus 7 to Minus 12, a 19-point drop
http://www.surveyusa.com/50State2005/50StatePOTUS1005SortedbyNetApproval.htm
I guess it’s true. You can never go home again.
Of course he was never from Texas to begin with so….
Davebo
PPGaz
Keep in mind that wage is for a carpenter with only five years experience.
In other words, an apprentice.
ppGaz
Right. Not that far up the road, in St. Louis, a Craigslist posting for “skilled carpenter” was recently touting a $14-$22/hr range depending on experience.
Davebo
ppGaz
Jeez! You had to go and mention St Louis!
Still crying over their creative use of wood last night.
Darrell
No you give me a break. You obviously are either clueless as to wages for Carpenters in Houston, or you’re a liar. It’s one or the other. The AVERAGE carpenter hourly wage, and that average is bumped up by union jobs, is $13.34/hour
After you were proven to be dead wrong, you’re now asserting that there are only 3 union jobs for carpenters in all of Houston?
Rome Again
I can agree with that, I haven’t seen the evidence either… but I can agree that they can learn a skill and make a lower wage after they’ve already come here.
By the way Darrell, I’ve never found myself on the same side of the fence as you before (even for part of an argument), it was a nice change, but… I am not comfortable with your namecalling. I try not to call people names, and I have a hard time defending those who do. I realize we all do it once in a while, but you seem to always pull namecalling out when you’re in a spot. Why is that?
Darrell
If you’re a dishonest scumbag, what do you do after you’ve been proven dead wrong? Why you change the subject of course
Darrell
Re-read the thread. Even DougJ had to admit that they were the ones who started by bashing me. Can you acknowledge that?
Davebo
“After you were proven to be dead wrong, you’re now asserting that there are only 3 union jobs for carpenters in all of Houston?”
An exageration perhaps. There are probably easily 100 union carpenters in Houston. One thing is certain, there are a lot of folks with free times on their hands at the Carpenters Local Union 551 here.
Could have something to do with that whole right to work thingy we have here.
Davebo
“If you’re a dishonest scumbag, what do you do after you’ve been proven dead wrong?”
Declare victory and move on eh?
Do you kiss your puppy with that potty mouth?
Davebo
Tell ya what Darryl. You find me one, just one home builder in the Houston area that utilizes union carpenters and I’ll consider your argument.
Good luck.
ppGaz
Where did Doug state that “they” “started” anything? As near as I can tell, the first use of the word “started” was in your (preceeding) post.
Lying again. You just can’t help yourself, can you?
Darrell
You see, when you’re dishonest to the core, as so many of you leftists truly are, when proven wrong you never admit it, you never budge an inch.. you simply throw out straw men and change the subject. It’s the type of person you are
ppGaz
Uh, Darrell, please look up the word “projection” … and go away.
Rome Again
Well, I do see that ppGaz did call you a “horse’s ass”, so in a sense, yes… but Darrell, I have to tell you, I’ve been on the receiving end of your namecalling, and I can’t recall ever calling you any names. You seem to do it all the time. I see more invective coming from your side here (even after DougJ’s call to stop the “Darrell-bashing”) than I see anyone else doing it.
I have to tell you that being on the receiving end, I’ve come to expect that sort of thing from you. Now that I’ve had at least some agreement with you on a thread, I’d like to ask, is that really necessary?
Darrell
I think you dishonestly overlooked his earlier comment telling me I’m “full of shit” + other cheap shots directed at me, so please stop pretending he only called me a ‘horses ass’, ok? Hence, DougJ’s comments wondering why his fellow lefties so often feel compelled to take cheap shots at me. Yes, I give as good as I get. But almost always after it’s directed at me
Davebo
I’m not changing the subject Darryl. You claimed Union Carpenters in Houston were driving up the average wage rate.
Anyone who’s spent any time at all in this area knows that less than 3% of all carpenters working in Houston belong to a union. Mainly do to our status as a right to work state.
In fact, the only strong union in Houston is the refinery workers union.
By the way, the federal prevailing wage for carpenters in Harris County is now at $19.50 an hour with another $5.93 for fringes.
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=Davis-Bacon&docid=TX20030125
Rome Again
What names did I ever call you? Why did you call me names previously? Not that you did today (you didn’t, thank you) but you have in the past. Can you explain?
Darrell
And that $19.50/hour bumps up the averages. Without it, the average hourly wage for carpenters in Houston would be less than the current $13.34/hour now. Again, $11 is what skilled carpenters, not ‘helpers’, are being paid in Houston. You claimed much higher averages and were proven DEAD wrong. Did you admit it? of course not
Darrell
Rome, re-read the archives. As I recall, you yourself directed profanities at me. Are you claiming differently now? quit pretending
SeesThroughIt
Wait, so is it a bad thing that union labor helps drive up wages?
Davebo
How are prevailing wage determinations developed?
Wage determinations are developed based on available data showing the rates that are prevailing in a specific locality. Where a single rate is paid to a majority (more than 50%) of the workers in a classification of service employees engaged in similar work in a particular locality, that rate is determined to prevail. When information is used from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) or other surveys, statistical measurements of central tendency (median) and the average (mean) are considered reliable indicators of the prevailing rate. Which of these statistical measurements will be applied in a given case will be determined after a careful analysis of the overall survey, separate classification data, patterns existing between survey periods, and the way separate classification data interrelate. Use of the median is the general rule. However, the mean may be used in situations where, after analysis, it is determined that the median is not a reliable indicator.
http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/compliance/whd/web/SCA_FAQ.htm
Davebo
Read above Darryl.
You’ve only proven that you have a short temper, a limited vocabulary, and a potty mouth.
Well, that and you were aptly named by your parents.
Rome Again
Rome, re-read the archives. As I recall, you yourself directed profanities at me. Are you claiming differently now? quit pretending
I don’t believe I did Darrell. I very rarely resort to profanities. As I remember, I did not call you any names.
Anyway, that was long ago and I’ve never used the archive feature here, don’t really want to now. All I’m saying is I don’t like resorting to namecalling (it makes one appear weak, hence the reason why I try not to use it), can we come to an agreement that we will not resort to such tactics? Fair enough?
Darrell
Who said it was a bad thing? No one? well then, we can certainly see why you posted that comment
jg
Translation: Stop talking to Darrel. There is no point. He wants to spout facts and call leftys liars. You will never come close to making your point with someone who has no intention of ever acknowledging your point. He’s a man with a soapbox and a bullhorn, and you’re all just hecklers.
John S.
And so another thread is queered…
Rome Again
Actually Darrell, it was a valid question. The prevailing view is that many, maybe most (not all, but at least many) Republicans don’t like higher wages for average American workers, hence the attacks on unionized labor.
It is understandable that you may not feel that way; but it is also common perception that the average Republican doesn’t agree with a union job.
Krista
Rome Again – I’m with you. I mean, when people get driven to a certain point, profanity gets used. (I’ve been guilty of that myself when driven to utter frustration.) But, I really think that a lot of people here use name-calling and profanity as a first resort. It accomplishes nothing, and derails what could be a semi-intelligent debate. There are certain people on this blog with whom I rarely agree, but I’ve still had some excellent, lively debates with them. I think the damage starts when we start namecalling, or when we start spouting broad, demonizing generalizations about Democrats, or Republicans, or liberals, or conservatives, or Christians, or atheists, or whatever.
Rome Again
John S. excuse my ignorance, but that work “queered” was never in my vocabulary. I saw that term once recently and didn’t quite get the meaning. Help me?
Growing up in a fairly well to do household, my parents taught me a lot of words, that one was on in the lesson manual. I never realized queer could be changed to a verb.
Darrell
I recall that you did, and now you’re being a hypocrite by pointing fingers at me for what you have done..
Rome Again
well Krista, I have to admit that I have a tendancy to make hasty generalizations about Republicans. I’m trying to stop that, but sometimes it gets the best of me. I guess it’s just because I’m so upset by all that has happened recently. I have bad habits myself, but profanity in debate is one I try to stay away from.
Rome Again
No Darrell, I’m not being hypocritical, I honestly don’t remember calling you names (I don’t resort to that tactic very often), and I remember being shocked that you did. But, don’t focus on the second part of what I wrote (the possibility of a name-calling truce) just the seemingly childish insistence that you are right and I am wrong.
Oh well, I tried, resume the namecalling I guess. I’ll learn to give it to you as good as you give it to me I guess. I tried to make our conversations civil (despite who started it) and you refuse, so fine, let it be. Carry on.
Krista
Darrell…it’s possible that he doesn’t remember. Can you at least refresh his memory somewhat as to what he said, or when he said it?
Rome Again
No matter Krista, I honestly don’t remember, but it is not important anymore.
Darrell is always right, and whoever is opposing him is always wrong. At least for a while today I was also siding with Darrell, so that made me partially right for once (I guess I can be happy for that).
[By the way, pssst… I’m female. Don’t tell anybody, shhhhhhhh!] ;)
John S.
Rome Again-
Queering (to queer) is one of those words that has been hijacked in order to slur homosexuals, but in the context which I used it I think the following definition would apply succintly:
tr.v. Slang queered, queer·ing
-To ruin or thwart: “might try to queer the Games with anything from troop movements… to a bomb attack” (Newsweek).
-To put (someone) in a bad position
Incidentally, my mother used to get me one of those blasted word-a-day calendars every year as a child – and actually made me use the word in a sentence on its particular day. The result was me having a lovely vocabulary that landed me a 780 on my SAT Verbal, but regretably 95% of the general public cannot fathom what the hell I am saying half the time.
ppGaz
But Darrell, you are full of shit. Surely you don’t expect me to overlook that, do you?
Be reasonable, please.
Still waiting for that information supporting your bogus claims, above, Mister Fill of Sh … er, Beans.
You reiterated that, as if fact, without really backing it up. “Skilled carpenters” are not likely to be working for $11 an hour as a general rule anywhere in this country, Darrell. But even if you found some who are, for some strange reason, we have nothing to indicate that they are because of your “flood of illegal immigrants.”
WTF, Darrell?
Krista
Rome Again – yeah, I would have been kicked off the high school debate team if I’d used some of the language I’ve seen here. :) I sometimes have knee-jerk reactions as well, and have to really keep reminding myself that just because someone doesn’t have the same beliefs as me, it doesn’t make their beliefs any less valid. Each person has their own truth.
Rome Again
I too have that problem John S. My parents didn’t get me the calendar, they just shouted out vocabulary to me on a daily basis. I was expected to speak like an upper-echelon child, as that was what I being raised to be. My parents expected me to be a lady, act like a lady, speak like a lady, marry a rich politician’s son (did that, it sucked), become racist (didn’t work for me), become Republican (didn’t work for me) and then inherit hundreds of thousands of dollars (didn’t work for me, Mom got a hold of six million first and blew it on bad oil investments… haha!).
Now I’m just an ordinary woman living in a SW FL apartment, doing an ordinary $35,000 a year job, but I retained my vocabulary. LOL
Darrell
Rome is almost obsessive in her singling me out with accusations about my language. First, she dishonestly characterizes the language used by ppgaz, then she keeps pushing on, lecturing me. Doubt me? Re-read her posts. Given that context in which she is playing holier-than-thou pointing fingers at me, it’s entirely fair that she be reminded of her own profanity directed at me. It was in the context of a discussion on race a month or so back as I recall. I’d like to drop it, but she seems to want to push the issue
Rome Again
Exactly Krista, and I think we would all benefit from trying to remind ourselves that despite what we personally think of our opinions, others are usually trying to verbalize that truth. I have my own truth, I try to introduce it, and then I am slammed with “you’re being hypocritical if you say…”. No, I’m not. I’m honestly putting forth my truth.
Accusations of lying are cheap. Most people here are not lying, they are informing us of their beliefs. While my beliefs are different from others, that doesn’t mean I’m being “dishonest” (a word Darrell likes to use often), it means my belief is different.
Facts will back up the belief and make it a proof, or knock it down and leave room for us to grow and learn from each other, if we stop automatically assuming that others are lying simply because their truth is different than our own.
Does that make sense?
Rome Again
Look Darrell, if I said anything profane to you, I apologize, okay? I honestly do not remember calling you any names. I think namecalling is cheap, it cheapens the argument you are putting forth (it cheapens arguments I put forth too). Truce?
Darrell
I think it’s fair to say this attitude is prevalent on the left. All opinions and beliefs are “equally valid”. Hey, just because someone is of the belief that the earth is flat doesn’t mean it’s not a ‘valid’ belief, right? puhleeeze lefties, get a grip
Rome Again
Your example doesn’t work, but if you use “trickle-down theory” on Republicans, viola(!), it surely does.
Davebo
“Hey, just because someone is of the belief that the earth is flat doesn’t mean it’s not a ‘valid’ belief, right? puhleeeze lefties, get a grip”
Yeah, I fucking can’t stand all those lefties who are trying to get public schools to teach kids about how the earth is 6,000 years old and the Grand Canyon was formed by the same flood Noah survived.
Rome Again
Anyway, it’s been nice talking with you Darrell. I’m glad we got to agree on something today. have to go to bed now so I can be up for work at 3 am.
Maybe next time we can have another debate where we find agreement on something. I thought it was pretty cool, actually.
ppGaz
Anything to avoid the issue, Darrell?
You said that “skilled carpenters” were stuck with making $11 an hour because of a “flood” of illegal immigrants.
Two hours later, it still appears for all the world that you just pulled that out of your ass.
Please, prove me wrong.
John S.
Rome Again-
Seriously, I hope that last gem by Darrell shows the hand he likes to play with. Whether you decide to play his game or not, he will always deal with his stacked deck of cards – no matter what. Furthermore, you will never win, because in Darrell’s Las Vegas of discourse, the house always wins.
I believe JG said it best:
Rome Again
John S. You’re right of course. I just have to try to get along with people because I feel that we’re here to try to understand and learn from each other, rather than just slam and deride each other constantly. I don’t hate Darrell, I never will. I just see things differently than he does and that’s okay. Apparently even after I apologize for something I don’t even remember saying, I get nothing in return. Oh well, I tried.
Anyway, I had to try. Some people will just never do more than come here to postulate their point of view and spread hatred for any differing opinions, I was hoping Darrell had more to offer than that. I personally think we’re here for more than just argument, personally I also come here to learn from others (Republicans especially). This country is so divided, I hope one day we can all find the same reality again; I’m not holding my breath, but I still have hope.
Darrell
.
Let’s recap. I asserted that illegal immigration depresses wages in several sectors of our economy. I think many of us have seen first hand evidence of this. It’s an entirely reasonable assertion to make. Anecdotally, I pointed out that in Houston, TX, skilled carpenters are being hired for $11/hour. That’s not much money to be paid for a skilled craft IMO. Why isn’t the market paying more? Almost certainly it’s because there are a LOT of illegal aliens who are willing to work such jobs for significantly less money than Americans. Not such an unreasonable point for me to make.
But so many of you kooks are miles from being reasonable. So several of you go apeshit over my assertion, going at me with personal insults (as noted by DougJ) instead of facts and logic. The above block quote is but another of many examples. It’s all you kooks have
In attempting to discredit my $11/hr carpenter wage claim, davebo claims that he has hired 14 carpenters, the lowest paid one, according to his claim, was at $18.50/hr. I then produced current Bureau of Labor stats data showing that the average wage for carpenters in Houston was $13.34/hr, and that’s an “average” which takes into account union and federal wage requirements which inflate the average. Also, the ‘average’ carpenter probably has over 10 yrs experience. So again, skilled carpenters in Houston are hired all the time for $11/hr. and that’s not much.
Nothing controversial, just presenting my arguments and facts, then having several kooks go ballistic when they are proven wrong, never admitting how wrong they were, all the while throwing out personal insults at me as usual because they have nothing else. It’s who they are
Darrell
Sorry, I didn’t see your apology but I note that you agree with John S’s cheap shot on me.
So after endorsing JohnS personal insults, you then suggest that I “spread hatred”. I understand, it’s the sort of person you are. It’s the sort of person so many of the left really are
ppGaz
It’s complete bullshit Darrell, which is why I am not going to let you off the hook. You have presented ZERO EVIDENCE to support this horseshit claim. I have lived within 150 miles of the Mexican border almost all of my six decades, and I don’t see a lot of illegal immigrants working as “skilled carpenters.” You said there was a “flood” of such immigrants resulting in the $11 wage standard. You can’t even get a consensus here on the wage, much less on the “flood” of immigrants.
You pulled the thing out of your ass. You’re a liar and a complete shithead. Any reasonable and honest person would have backed away from that stupid claim and moved on, admitting that you went over the top. But not you, you lying sack.
SeesThroughIt
Are you actually asserting, Darrell, that you don’t spread hatred? Every single time somebody has the audacity to prove you wrong, you just spew invective and call everybody a “dishonest scumbag” for, well, proving you wrong. Every single time somebody on the left side of the political spectrum makes a point you don’t like, you ascribe it to the inherant evil of being on the left, claiming, “It’s just the sort of person so many on the left really are.” Hell, you did it above.
I don’t expect you to actually recognize this publically, of course. It seems to piss you off that people have your number, and that further drives your venom. Personally, I find it quite amusing, so far be it from me to try to get you to stop. But you’ve proven the arguments against you, both as a poster and in terms of the ideas you forward.
Carry on.
Krista
I just read way too much. :)
Darrell, you’re being deliberately antagonistic. I was trying to make a point that we should at least respect each others’ viewpoints, even if we don’t necessarily agree with them. You responded to that by mocking me. I really don’t think that was called for.
Krista
By the way, Rome Again – sorry for referring to you as a “he”. I’m used to being rather outnumbered on this blog, so automatically assume that a poster is male, unless their handle indicates otherwise. I know..terrible, terrible assumptions. :)
Rome Again
You know what Darrell? I can’t win with you. I didn’t say “Darrell comes here to spread hatred, I said:
Some people will just never do more than come here to postulate their point of view and spread hatred for any differing opinions, I was hoping Darrell had more to offer than that.
I still do Darrell, but it seems that all you want to do is try to trap me in some hateful little game and characterize me as a bitch. You were here, you were posting, you ignored my apology. Maybe you truly didn’t see it, and if you didn’t, fine, I accept that. Time will tell if we can get along or not. You ignored my truce request earlier, so why should I think that my apology would hold any more water with you. I’m trying to get along with you Darrell, but DAMN you make it so hard. I see you waving persecution around like a flag, and falling back on “you lefties are always like that”… well you know what Darrell? (warning, profanity coming) FUCK THAT! You’re a Republican and I’ve agreed with you today, then called for a truce which you ignored and then apologized, and you ignored all but whatever you could latch onto to prove your persecution complex. You have called me a hypocrite, and a liar, and I’m the one who has tried to reach out and find some common ground with you anyway, despite all that. The ball is in your court, your next move will determine what I think of “your side”.
Darrell
Ah, the ever so eloquent left.
One example in which I have been “proven wrong” and not owned up to it? Just one. We have at least one solid example of a lefty on this thread having his argument blown out of the water. We also have NUMEROUS examples of personal insults made against me.. If you want to interpret that as your side “having my number” who am I to get in the way of your fantasies
John S.
Darrell-
Really now, you shouldn’t have…let me put it to you in your own words:
Darrell,
Exactly.
Rome Again
No doubt an opinion of the persecuted right.
Darrell
That’s not what you posted. What you posted was that one opinion is not less valid than another. I’ve seen this “we’re all equal” type of thinking a lot on the left. If that’s not what you intended to write, fine, but it is what you wrote. The idea that all opinions and beliefs are equally valid is an idea that deserves to be mocked.
ppGaz
Let this be a lesson to the Darrell-defenders around here.
This guy will say anything, pulling nonsense right out of his ass, and then lie and deflect all day to avoid owning up to it. Read this thread and judge for yourself.
Fuck you, Darrell. You suck. You’re a liar.
Darrell
Rome comes after me for using profanity while ignoring the personal insults and profanity heaped upon me by others (and by herself in the past). How honest of you
Darrell
When you have no brains and no argument, this is all that’s left
ppGaz
That’s pathetic, you little craphead. You just wasted about 4 hours of time in here dancing around a completely bullshit statement because you’re a coward and can’t just admit that you pulled it out of your ass.
Rome Again
What will you do when no one ever persecutes you anymore?
John S.
Cite it. This is the Internet. Go find where she did what you are claiming and link to it.
The bottom line is that you do not have enough credibility for anyone to take your anecdotal examples as fact. Prove where you have had profanity heaped upon you.
So link to it, or resign yourself to shrieking into the void.
Darrell
What say all you lefties who having been crowing over the need to ‘respect the opinions of others’ and ‘just get along’? I can’t hear you! hypocrites
Rome Again
Gee, I should have been asleep an hour ago, but I thought Darrell might be worth staying up for, thought maybe he might see my apology, might see that I was really trying to understand him. I should have gone to bed, it would have been much more productive.
Good night all!
(yes, even you, oh persecuted one)
Darrell
I own you kooks. You loons are obsessed. Deep down in your black hearts you know it’s true
Krista
Rome hon, you tried. I tried. Don’t be ashamed that you were driven to profanity…sometimes a girl’s just gotta say “fuck.” :)
Darrell, we’ve both tried to be civil with you, and to at least hold a reasonable debate, but you persist in throwing out broad generalizations about what we “lefties are all like.” You chose to mock me, instead of respecting my right to have the opinion that ALL belief systems are valid. Even if you don’t agree with me, which you obviously don’t, you could have chosen to be civil about it, and to explain why you don’t agree. Instead, you chose to mock me, and then to claim that my opinion deserved to be mocked. You’ve rejected or ignored any extensions of the olive branch, and have instead chosen to bring up old slights, nitpick, and mock. Well, we tried. I’m not going to lose my temper, or get nasty with you, or call you names, but I really just don’t see much point in continuing to engage in conversation with you, because it’s fruitless and frustrating, and life is just too damned short.
John S.
1. You are truly an amazing satirist
– or –
2. You are a very angry and lamentable little man
Darrell
Krista, the assertion you made earlier that one belief is as valid as the other is not the same thing as “we should at least respect each others’ viewpoints”. They mean something completely different. You can look it up if you want. I would appreciate if you wouldn’t dishonestly twist what I wrote, ok?
Darrell
Hey, I’m not the one ranting about “shrieking into the void”. You gotta admit, that was a pretty weird and creepy thing to post. I’m starting to believe Michael Savage may have somewhat of a point when he says liberalism is a mental disorder
Krista
Very well. My original meaning was that we should respect each others’ viewpoints. I don’t see how it’s that far removed from “just because someone doesn’t have the same beliefs from me, it doesn’t make their beliefs any less valid.” But I can see that there is a difference, upon second reading. Regardless, instead of stating your disagreement with that viewpoint, and indicating the reason for the disagreement, you chose to mock me. I’ll admit that I was not clear, and that my original statement can be easily debated, and I apologize for any confusion or misunderstandings that I caused. However, I would really appreciate an apology from you, for the derisive way that you spoke to me.
Darrell
I used no profanity in my reply to you and in no way could anyone interpret my reply to you as abusive. Anyone doubting me can re-read my reply to you above. If you acknowledge that your language was unclear, why is an apology called for? Again, the idea that all opinions and beliefs are equally valid is an idea that is absurd on it’s face and you know it. That may not be what you intended to write, but it is nonetheless what you wrote. And now you’re asking me to apologize for responding to a post you made which you admit was not clear? get a grip
Krista
It wasn’t the dissent, it was the mocking, derisive manner in which you dissented. A post doesn’t have to be profane or abusive in order to be considered rude and uncalled-for. But if you don’t believe that you should apologize, then that’s cool. It’s not really worth making a big deal over.
Darrell
I apologize if I made you pout. Given your sensitivity, I wonder how you would react being singled out on the receiving end of the typical vitriol coming from the deranged left?
And if you think they would cut slack just because you’re a girl, you should read what they write about Stormy
Krista
I wasn’t actually pouting. I sincerely do mean that it’s not a big deal. I would have appreciated a gesture of apology, or at least a truce, from you, but I really didn’t have my heart set on it.
As far as being the recipient of vitriol, no, I can’t imagine that it’s in the least bit pleasant. However, I’ve usually managed to be pretty civil to everybody, so maybe others think it would be rather unfair to respond to that with vitriol. Or maybe I’ve just been lucky. Who knows, right? And yeah, I’ve seen what they write about Stormy, so I know that my gender isn’t a factor in this. Stormy has some very strong opinions, and tends to be pretty unyielding in those opinions, and that tends to elicit a very strong reaction. But, she’s proven very able to hold her own against a maelstrom of criticism and vitriol, and that’s great.
Look…some of us “liberals” can be nasty, or ill-informed, or belligerent, or what have you. But some of us are just having fun by wasting precious company time by engaging in fun, informative debate, scuttlebutt, and the occasional deep, intellectual discussion. I think that when any of us, be they right or left, start making sweeping generalizations about the other side, it just raises everybody’s hackles and sets the stage for nastiness. To generalize, nobody likes being generalized. :)
John S.
Worse. You are the one shrieking into it.
Howie
Who dares to use my masters name?? The good DR says he was not here.