• Menu
  • Skip to primary navigation
  • Skip to main content
  • Skip to primary sidebar

Before Header

  • About Us
  • Lexicon
  • Contact Us
  • Our Store
  • ↑
  • ↓
  • ←
  • →

Balloon Juice

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Usually wrong but never in doubt

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

Let’s delete this post and never speak of this again.

I know this must be bad for Joe Biden, I just don’t know how.

A thin legal pretext to veneer over their personal religious and political desires

Republicans do not pay their debts.

Optimism opens the door to great things.

Schmidt just says fuck it, opens a tea shop.

if you can’t see it, then you are useless in the fight to stop it.

Presidents are not kings, and Plaintiff is not President.

I did not have telepathic declassification on my 2022 bingo card.

Prediction: the GOP will rethink its strategy of boycotting future committees.

“Jesus paying for the sins of everyone is an insult to those who paid for their own sins.”

Black Jesus loves a paper trail.

Our job is not to persuade republicans but to defeat them.

The words do not have to be perfect.

Republican obstruction dressed up as bipartisanship. Again.

They fucked up the fucking up of the fuckup!

The revolution will be supervised.

Pessimism assures that nothing of any importance will change.

Good lord, these people are nuts.

My years-long effort to drive family and friends away has really paid off this year.

Russian mouthpiece, go fuck yourself.

Mobile Menu

  • Winnable House Races
  • Donate with Venmo, Zelle & PayPal
  • Site Feedback
  • War in Ukraine
  • Submit Photos to On the Road
  • Politics
  • On The Road
  • Open Threads
  • Topics
  • Balloon Juice 2023 Pet Calendar (coming soon)
  • COVID-19 Coronavirus
  • Authors
  • About Us
  • Contact Us
  • Lexicon
  • Our Store
  • Politics
  • Open Threads
  • War in Ukraine
  • Garden Chats
  • On The Road
  • 2021-22 Fundraising!
You are here: Home / Politics / Media / The Torture Question

The Torture Question

by John Cole|  October 18, 20057:08 pm| 49 Comments

This post is in: Media, Military, War on Terror aka GSAVE®

FacebookTweetEmail

Frontline is a must-see tonight, as they will provide an in-depth 90 minute presentation on the administration’s legal thoughts regarding torture.

*** Update ***

Seven minutes into the show and I am already pissed off- going to be a long hour and a half.

*** Update ***

If you still think Lyddie England and Graner and the others deserve to be in jail after watching that show, you need your damned head examined.

*** Update ***

Graner and England are no heroes, do not get me wrong, and they probably do deserve some form of punishment. But the notion that this was just ‘the night shift acting up,’ acting, as Schlesinger stated, ‘like Animal House,’ offends not only common sense, but the pretty clearly established historical record.

FacebookTweetEmail
Previous Post: « Heaven Help Us
Next Post: Plame Game Continued »

Reader Interactions

49Comments

  1. 1.

    srv

    October 18, 2005 at 8:13 pm

    Mr. Pres,

    1) It’s not torture if we don’t have a definition of torture.

    2) If we’re not sure, we can send them to friends who will do it for us.

    3) You’re the Unitary Executive, man. You can do whatever the f*ck you want anyway.

    Best,
    Alberto

  2. 2.

    CaseyL

    October 18, 2005 at 9:27 pm

    Maybe we just misheard the Bush Campaign when it kept saying it would “restore Honor and Dignity to the White House.”

    Maybe what they were really saying was “Horror and Degradation.”

  3. 3.

    Zifnab

    October 18, 2005 at 10:35 pm

    But at least he’s not having sex with anybody, right?

  4. 4.

    over it

    October 18, 2005 at 10:37 pm

    Depends what your definition of ‘sex’ is.

  5. 5.

    Zifnab

    October 18, 2005 at 10:41 pm

    Well, people certainly have gotten fucked while he was in office.

  6. 6.

    Larry Bernard

    October 18, 2005 at 10:51 pm

    Well lets see in addition to the famous pictures they also did fun things like use the prison to film home made porn

    those two were sadists man…

  7. 7.

    Emma Zahn

    October 18, 2005 at 11:20 pm

    If you still think Lyddie England and Graner and the others deserve to be in jail after watching that show, you need your damned head examined.

    John, as former military, what do you think you might have done had you found yourself at either Gitmo or Abu Ghreb?

  8. 8.

    Katherine

    October 18, 2005 at 11:40 pm

    I think Graner and England deserve to be in jail, actually. But I don’t think they’re the only ones.

    As important as the show itself are the interviews with Roger Brokaw and Tony Lagouranis on the PBS site. A lot of it is on the show, but I strongly recommend reading the full interviews in addition.

  9. 9.

    KC

    October 19, 2005 at 12:15 am

    It just came on out West here, but so far it’s nothing new. Everyone knows that the administration tossed laws (admittedly, I’ve hated John Yoo since seeing him speak on C-SPAN in 2003) they didn’t like; most people know the Patriot Act handed the President major war (defined loosely) powers.

  10. 10.

    Bob

    October 19, 2005 at 12:46 am

    John and Saddam
    Sittin’ in a tree
    Hating our liberty

    /FreeRepublic

  11. 11.

    Ancient Purple

    October 19, 2005 at 1:29 am

    I just finished watching Frontline and all I can say is I am sure glad that we ignored the Geneva Convention because without doing so we never would have found those stockpiles of WMDs.

    Oh.

  12. 12.

    Josh

    October 19, 2005 at 5:18 am

    Not only did they know it happened, they made it happen. Now we live in a police state.

  13. 13.

    russell

    October 19, 2005 at 8:23 am

    We now live in a country where torture happens as a matter of policy.

    Don’t like it? Quit voting for the bastards.

  14. 14.

    farmgirl

    October 19, 2005 at 8:37 am

    Slightly OT, did you see “Two Days in October” on American Experience Monday night? I was in tears for just about the whole show … especially when the Vietnam vet talked about writing his own “welcome home” letter because he knew no one aside from his parents would be happy to see him when he got back.

    I wasn’t born until after the last chopper left Saigon, but I felt I personally owed that guy a hug and a thank-you.

  15. 15.

    Mike

    October 19, 2005 at 8:53 am

    Its war – not daycare. If it wasn’t for the liberal media making a big deal about the whole situation these people would not be in jail. They got carried away in a stressful conditions – big deal.

  16. 16.

    Bob In Pacifica

    October 19, 2005 at 8:58 am

    Gee, it seemed like so much common sense to me, from first reports, that this was not nightshift tomfoolery, but a reflection if not direct policy from the top.

    As a former military myself, and as a former lots of things, I never considered bad treatment of any charges. However, for those who do, the code of military justice used to be a deterrent.

  17. 17.

    Lines

    October 19, 2005 at 9:29 am

    Shall we take open bets on when Darrell or Defense Guy get here and defend the torture? And then they wonder why people gang up on them?

    Those defending torture are the lowest of the low. They arn’t the ones committing the torture, the ones who feel they are gaining something by losing their humanity. No, they are the ones defending, even with 20/20 hindsight, the use of torture in the off chance that it “might” stop an attack on our troops. 2000 dead men and women might disagree. Whats to stop the police from grabbing up minorities that “look” like gang members and submitting them to a water board or a glow stick up the ass, in the off chance that they may stop a gang killing or a cop killing, even though no evidence exists that the event in question will ever happen?

    Never mind, that was wasted typing on those that defend our use of torture as “a frat prank” or “blowing off steam” or “means justify the ends”. Pathetic, inhumane fools.

  18. 18.

    pmm

    October 19, 2005 at 9:58 am

    I look forward to downloading the show when it comes available online, since I dissent from Mr. Cole’s general analysis of this topic based on what I know at this time.

    Has anyone actually seen the dozen investigations done on this at the time? I know they are dismissed as whitewash, but it would be nice to read what the DoD has come up with so far.

  19. 19.

    Defense Guy

    October 19, 2005 at 10:11 am

    Shall we take open bets on when Darrell or Defense Guy get here and defend the torture? And then they wonder why people gang up on them?

    You are an idiot. That is all.

  20. 20.

    Ancient Purple

    October 19, 2005 at 10:21 am

    They got carried away in a stressful conditions – big deal.

    So, when American prisoners are kept in vats of ice water to induce hypothermia, handcuffed and blindfolded while having attack dogs set upon them, sodomized with broomsticks, and have chemical lights broken and poured on their bodies, it is all just no “big deal.”

    Gotcha.

  21. 21.

    Tim Fuller

    October 19, 2005 at 10:43 am

    The only thing I’m curious about is why the owner of this blog is acting surprised? This information has been out for A LONG TIME now and somebody with a rightleaning political blog OUGHT to be up on this obvious case of NAZISM. And it’s Nazism when they ice down prisoners with anal temp probes (to get them just cold enough but not kill them). This is STRAIGHT OUT OF NAZI CONCENTRATION CAMP Dr. Mengeles stuff!!!

    The videos of our troops raping their babies is due out anytime. Are you gonna act just as ‘surprised’ about that too? Just curious.

    The folks who signed off on this deserve to be tried as war criminals. Pure and simple.

    Enjoy.

  22. 22.

    John S.

    October 19, 2005 at 11:09 am

    Its war – not daycare. If it wasn’t for the liberal media making a big deal about the whole situation these people would not be in jail. They got carried away in a stressful conditions – big deal.

    And who says conservatives don’t do moral relativism?

    I particularly like Mike’s philosophical ‘if a tree falls in the woods’ quip. If Americans engaging in torture don’t have the ‘liberal’ media around to report it, does it actually happen? I guess not if you hide the body and get rid of the evidence.

    Even more fantastic is his channeling of a defense attorney representing any client at a war crimes tribunal. His clients aren’t guilty for the heinous acts they have committed. They were under mental duress and operating in stressful conditions, therefore they aren’t responsible for their actions.

    Your version of America vanished over a century ago, Mike. If you want a return to the lawless and vigilante ways of the Wild West, get a Delorean and build a time machine.

  23. 23.

    pmm

    October 19, 2005 at 11:09 am

    The videos of our troops raping their babies is due out anytime. Are you gonna act just as ‘surprised’ about that too? Just curious.

    As an Iraq vet, I can assure you that we only eat babies, not rape them. That’s subcontracted to KBR.

  24. 24.

    TallDave

    October 19, 2005 at 11:31 am

    I’m curious what level of interrogation people feel is acceptable. Is yelling OK? Or must all interrogations be done in a calm and reasonable tone? What about threats? Insults? Stress positions? All unacceptable? Clearly a line needs to be drawn somewhere. But where?

    Anyone here ever watch NYPD Blue? A couple cops have told me that was the most honest portrayal of interrogation methods you’ll ever see on TV. Was Andy Sipowicz a torturer and sadist, or a cop who got results and put dangerous criminals behind bars where other milder interrogation methods failed? He went further than our soldiers are allowed to. Sometimes those interrogation methods save lives. How many dead U.S. soldiers are our sensibilities worth? At what point do those methods simply inflame hostilities?

  25. 25.

    Shygetz

    October 19, 2005 at 11:31 am

    Yeah, and they eat the babies over THERE so we don’t have to eat them HERE. Why do you hate America?

  26. 26.

    Shygetz

    October 19, 2005 at 11:38 am

    How many dead U.S. soldiers are our sensibilities worth? At what point do those methods simply inflame hostilities?

    Those are legitimate, honest questions. I think that torture is ineffective at getting reliable intelligence, puts our soldiers at undue risk, demeans the humanity and morale of our soldiers and civillians, and reduces our image in foreign affairs. I reject the unfounded assertion that “Sometimes those interrogation methods save lives” if, by “those interrogation methods” you mean torture. I’ve seen no evidence that torture saves lives, and I would argue that, in the balance, torture costs more lives (e.g. Abu Gharib inflamed the Iraqi insurgency, killing more Americans long-term than it may have saved short-term). I got no problem with yelling or insults (although I don’t know if they are effective). Stress positions are very borderline, and may be too far.

  27. 27.

    TallDave

    October 19, 2005 at 11:39 am

    I’ll repeat my offer for anyone to compare prisoner abuse in Iraq to prisoner abuse in WW II or U.S. civilian prisons. You’ll find that by reasonable standards, Iraqi prisoners have been treated better than average.

    Does that excuse abuse? Of course not, and abusers should be punished. But it does tend to negate the idea this was a policy failure.

  28. 28.

    TallDave

    October 19, 2005 at 11:40 am

    Shygetz,

    Torture may be ineffectve, but harsh interrogations are not.

  29. 29.

    TallDave

    October 19, 2005 at 11:41 am

    It’s well-established there’s a point of diminishing returns in terms of harshness, but where is that line?

  30. 30.

    TallDave

    October 19, 2005 at 11:42 am

    Also, you’re mixing apples and orange there Shygetz. Lyndie England was not interrogating anyone. Everyone agrees what happened there was wrong.

  31. 31.

    Krista

    October 19, 2005 at 11:52 am

    Tall Dave – Those are legitimate, good questions…one we all need to be asking. I agree that when it comes to saving lives, sometimes interrogation needs to be harsh or intimidating. But you’re right…there’s a line. Once you’ve crossed that line, you wind up creating 10 new enemies for every 1 that you’ve caught. There really needs to be a serious, honest review of how the U.S. treats people who are in its custody, be they genuine prisoners, or suspects, or “enemy combatants”.

  32. 32.

    John S.

    October 19, 2005 at 11:53 am

    I’ll repeat my offer for anyone to compare prisoner abuse in Iraq to prisoner abuse in WW II or U.S. civilian prisons. You’ll find that by reasonable standards, Iraqi prisoners have been treated better than average.

    And who says conservatives don’t do moral relativism?

  33. 33.

    Lines

    October 19, 2005 at 11:53 am

    And I have my apologist! Thank you TallDave.

    You’re a perfect example of the disgusting brand of human that is destroying this country. The type of person that will put their humanity aside for the ends justify the means.

    You’ve totally queered this thread, you’ve made yourself look like a sociopath or a fascist, and you don’t even know it.

    Why don’t you just say “there is no crime of torture, because torture itself is undefined”

  34. 34.

    demimondian

    October 19, 2005 at 12:07 pm

    Torture may be ineffectve, but harsh interrogations are not.

    There’s some significant question about that, too. Interrogation that includes sleep deprivation, etc. is actually of at best limited value, even if it is not, techically, torture according to the internationally accepted definitions. (And, yes, T.D., there are internationally accepted definitions of torture.)

    It turns out that any treatment which will reduce a prisoner to the state in which he or she thinks “I’ll say anything, just make it stop.” yields exactly that: a prisoner who will say anything, just to make the torment stop. Unsurprisingly, the reliability of what the prisoner says under such circumstances is…limited.

    It’s great. People arguing for torture say “the ends justify the means”…except that the means chosen don’t achieve the ends sought.

  35. 35.

    BumperStickerist

    October 19, 2005 at 12:09 pm

    Ok, ‘there is no crime of ‘torture’ because torture itself is undefined’.

    The hairshirts, sack cloth, and ashes are over by the corner. Clean up after you’ve finished bemoaning the sorry state of humanity.

    I’ll go along with John and say that the problem was systemic. There was command failure regarding training, a lack of clarity regarding instructions, and poor oversight.

    The McCain effort to have the revised Army Field Manual be the standard for the military with regard to ‘torture’ clarifies the issue for the soldiers.

    However, ‘torture’ is not disallowed.

    The change simply means that the appropriate branch of the government, most likely the CIA, would conduct certain interrogations and carry out any torture.

  36. 36.

    Cassidy

    October 19, 2005 at 12:41 pm

    John, I’m surprised. As a former soldier, you know that a failure in leadership does not protect you from a failure in judgement. While they may not be the only ones who should be in jail, England and Graner should most definately be in jail.

    I think the big thing here is that torture is a relative term. While I would probably be mildly amused if someone pissed on a bible, Dobson would go into coniptions and feel emoptionally abused. It’s a very open-ended argument. Muslims live in a male-dominated society, so emasculation, through interrogation, by a female is concievably torture. That’s just one example.

  37. 37.

    Otto Man

    October 19, 2005 at 12:41 pm

    Anyone here ever watch NYPD Blue? A couple cops have told me that was the most honest portrayal of interrogation methods you’ll ever see on TV. Was Andy Sipowicz a torturer and sadist, or a cop who got results and put dangerous criminals behind bars where other milder interrogation methods failed?

    So we should base our policy not on the Constitution, but on a Steven Bochco cop show?

    I guess I should be glad you didn’t go with “Cop Rock,” and advocate having our interrogators sing to the suspects until they cracked. But the NYPD rule of thumb is almost as stupid.

    Almost.

  38. 38.

    Slartibartfast

    October 19, 2005 at 12:45 pm

    You’ll find that by reasonable standards, Iraqi prisoners have been treated better than average.

    Except for the random prisoners that have been tortured to death, that’s probably a true statement.

    Verbal interrogation doesn’t constitute torture; no sane person is claiming that. What constitutes torture is, well, stuff like this. Oh, and this is definitely torture.

  39. 39.

    a guy called larry

    October 19, 2005 at 1:19 pm

    From Reservoir Dogs

    EDDIE
    I take it this is the bastard you told me about. (referring to the
    cop)
    Why the hell are you beating on him?

    MR. PINK
    So he’ll tell us who the fuck set us up.

    EDDIE
    Would you stop it with that shit! If you fuckin’ beat on this prick enough, he’ll tell ya he started the goddamn Chicago fire. That don’t necessarily make fuckin’ it so. C’mon, man, think!

    I think this bit of fiction comes closer to the truth than NYPD Blue
    Cue ‘Dueling Screenwriters’…

  40. 40.

    Ancient Purple

    October 19, 2005 at 1:54 pm

    I’ll repeat my offer for anyone to compare prisoner abuse in Iraq to prisoner abuse in WW II or U.S. civilian prisons. You’ll find that by reasonable standards, Iraqi prisoners have been treated better than average.

    During WWII, the Papago Butte area of East Phoenix was used as a POW camp for German and Italian army regulars. Over the course of the war, some 4,000 POWs were stationed there. The camp was using the building that once house the U.S. Calvary, until their departure in the 1930s.

    POWs were given comfortable quarters and paid $0.10 per hour to dig ditches during the day. During the nights, they were allowed to sit in a small auditorium where American movies were shown to the prisoners. On weekends, they played volleyball in a makeshift pit the prisoners created themselves.

    Due to the treatment of the prisoners by the Americans, many of them formally immigrated to the U.S. after the war and formed small communities, specifically a German enclave in what is now called “South Scottsdale” and an Italian enclave in what is now called “Moon Valley” in north Phoenix.

  41. 41.

    Shygetz

    October 19, 2005 at 2:38 pm

    Also, you’re mixing apples and orange there Shygetz. Lyndie England was not interrogating anyone. Everyone agrees what happened there was wrong.

    Nope, sorry. The Iraqis didn’t get pissed off because we were torturing people without getting any information (besides, England has always held that the humiliations were part of the ‘softening up’ for later interrogation). They got pissed off because we were torturing people. See, that’s an apple and another apple.

  42. 42.

    SeesThroughIt

    October 19, 2005 at 3:26 pm

    I guess I should be glad you didn’t go with “Cop Rock,” and advocate having our interrogators sing to the suspects until they cracked.

    Not only would that be effective (because, really, wouldn’t you crack if you were forced to hear Cop Rock songs for extended periods of time?), it would be kind of awesome. “Don’t make us go Bochco on your ass!”

  43. 43.

    jg

    October 19, 2005 at 5:37 pm

    I’ll take Nice Guy Eddie’s advice over anything Sipowicz has to say.

  44. 44.

    Otto Man

    October 19, 2005 at 5:41 pm

    I’ll take Nice Guy Eddie’s advice over anything Sipowicz has to say.

    Agreed. And I’m still not clear on why Sipowicz’s actions somehow support torture in Iraq. I must have missed the episodes where he smeared suspects with menstral blood or waterboarded them or stripped them nude and set the dogs loose. The roughest I remember him getting was slamming some skell back into the cage and shouting at him.

    Hopefully Tall Dave can explain it all.

  45. 45.

    jg

    October 19, 2005 at 6:26 pm

    So far Tall Dave has hit us with NYPD Blue and Law and Order. Anything the girls on Charmed can teach us about new american politics?

  46. 46.

    John S.

    October 19, 2005 at 6:31 pm

    So far Tall Dave has hit us with NYPD Blue and Law and Order.

    Is that art imitating life, or is life imitating the art?

  47. 47.

    Katherine

    October 19, 2005 at 11:22 pm

    I think that people who want a Serious Discussion about “where exactly you draw the line” and “how exactly you know what techniques are acceptable” are being had. It is hard to have that discussion when the administration utterly refuses to discuss specific interrogation techniques, even to say whether waterboarding or mock execution is permitted, because to do so would “provide a road map” to Al Qaida. If that is the case then our Serious Discussion about where the line is would never, ever, ever have any effect at all on policy. So what is it but a distraction?

    That goes double for everyone’s irrestible impulse to imagine they are Jack Bauer. The ticking nuke thing is not only ridiculously implausible–it’s actually impossible, because you can’t know in advance that torture will work and nothing short of torture will work. The CIA’s own interrogation manual says it doesn’t, though.

    We have real cases where real people have been tortured to death. We have a long and growing paper trail & an increasing number of eyewitnesses that trace this all the way up the chain of command. And the investigations are simply not independent.

    I think anyone who cares more about these absurd hypotheticals or these entirely abstract discussions about where the line is, rather than what has actually happened to people and who is responsible–all the way up the chain–either is trying to sell a bill of goods on behalf of the administration, or has been sold a bill of goods by the administration.

  48. 48.

    srv

    October 19, 2005 at 11:38 pm

    Only up to 108 dead in custody!

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051019/wl_nm/iraq_usa_abuse_dc

    How could any American Hater think this is a problem?

Comments are closed.

Trackbacks

  1. Balloon Juice says:
    January 12, 2006 at 10:11 am

    […] One of the things that drove John crazy about the detainee torture scandals was the way the Army pretended that it could foist off the blame on the grunts and junior officers. For example: […]

Primary Sidebar

🎈Keep Balloon Juice Ad Free

Become a Balloon Juice Patreon
Donate with Venmo, Zelle or PayPal

2023 Pet Calendars

Pet Calendar Preview: A
Pet Calendar Preview: B

*Calendars can not be ordered until Cafe Press gets their calendar paper in.

Recent Comments

  • Steve in the ATL on Open Thread: Al Capone Investigates Eliot Ness (Feb 8, 2023 @ 4:28pm)
  • Mr. Bemused Senior on Open Thread: Al Capone Investigates Eliot Ness (Feb 8, 2023 @ 4:27pm)
  • misterpuff on Open Thread: Al Capone Investigates Eliot Ness (Feb 8, 2023 @ 4:26pm)
  • Kristine on Open Thread: Al Capone Investigates Eliot Ness (Feb 8, 2023 @ 4:23pm)
  • Alison Rose on Open Thread: Al Capone Investigates Eliot Ness (Feb 8, 2023 @ 4:17pm)

Balloon Juice Posts

View by Topic
View by Author
View by Month & Year
View by Past Author

Featuring

Medium Cool
Artists in Our Midst
Authors in Our Midst
We All Need A Little Kindness
Favorite Dogs & Cats
Classified Documents: A Primer

Calling All Jackals

Site Feedback
Nominate a Rotating Tag
Submit Photos to On the Road
Balloon Juice Mailing List Signup
Balloon Juice Anniversary (All Links)
Balloon Juice Anniversary (All Posts)

Front-pager Twitter

John Cole
DougJ (aka NYT Pitchbot)
Betty Cracker
Tom Levenson
TaMara
David Anderson
ActualCitizensUnited

Shop Amazon via this link to support Balloon Juice   

Join the Fight!

Join the Fight Signup Form
All Join the Fight Posts

Balloon Juice Events

5/14  The Apocalypse
5/20  Home Away from Home
5/29  We’re Back, Baby
7/21  Merging!

Balloon Juice for Ukraine

Donate

Site Footer

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

  • Facebook
  • RSS
  • Twitter
  • YouTube
  • Comment Policy
  • Our Authors
  • Blogroll
  • Our Artists
  • Privacy Policy

Copyright © 2023 Dev Balloon Juice · All Rights Reserved · Powered by BizBudding Inc

Share this ArticleLike this article? Email it to a friend!

Email sent!