Frontline is a must-see tonight, as they will provide an in-depth 90 minute presentation on the administration’s legal thoughts regarding torture.
*** Update ***
Seven minutes into the show and I am already pissed off- going to be a long hour and a half.
*** Update ***
If you still think Lyddie England and Graner and the others deserve to be in jail after watching that show, you need your damned head examined.
*** Update ***
Graner and England are no heroes, do not get me wrong, and they probably do deserve some form of punishment. But the notion that this was just ‘the night shift acting up,’ acting, as Schlesinger stated, ‘like Animal House,’ offends not only common sense, but the pretty clearly established historical record.
srv
Mr. Pres,
1) It’s not torture if we don’t have a definition of torture.
2) If we’re not sure, we can send them to friends who will do it for us.
3) You’re the Unitary Executive, man. You can do whatever the f*ck you want anyway.
Best,
Alberto
CaseyL
Maybe we just misheard the Bush Campaign when it kept saying it would “restore Honor and Dignity to the White House.”
Maybe what they were really saying was “Horror and Degradation.”
Zifnab
But at least he’s not having sex with anybody, right?
over it
Depends what your definition of ‘sex’ is.
Zifnab
Well, people certainly have gotten fucked while he was in office.
Larry Bernard
Well lets see in addition to the famous pictures they also did fun things like use the prison to film home made porn
those two were sadists man…
Emma Zahn
John, as former military, what do you think you might have done had you found yourself at either Gitmo or Abu Ghreb?
Katherine
I think Graner and England deserve to be in jail, actually. But I don’t think they’re the only ones.
As important as the show itself are the interviews with Roger Brokaw and Tony Lagouranis on the PBS site. A lot of it is on the show, but I strongly recommend reading the full interviews in addition.
KC
It just came on out West here, but so far it’s nothing new. Everyone knows that the administration tossed laws (admittedly, I’ve hated John Yoo since seeing him speak on C-SPAN in 2003) they didn’t like; most people know the Patriot Act handed the President major war (defined loosely) powers.
Bob
John and Saddam
Sittin’ in a tree
Hating our liberty
/FreeRepublic
Ancient Purple
I just finished watching Frontline and all I can say is I am sure glad that we ignored the Geneva Convention because without doing so we never would have found those stockpiles of WMDs.
Oh.
Josh
Not only did they know it happened, they made it happen. Now we live in a police state.
russell
We now live in a country where torture happens as a matter of policy.
Don’t like it? Quit voting for the bastards.
farmgirl
Slightly OT, did you see “Two Days in October” on American Experience Monday night? I was in tears for just about the whole show … especially when the Vietnam vet talked about writing his own “welcome home” letter because he knew no one aside from his parents would be happy to see him when he got back.
I wasn’t born until after the last chopper left Saigon, but I felt I personally owed that guy a hug and a thank-you.
Mike
Its war – not daycare. If it wasn’t for the liberal media making a big deal about the whole situation these people would not be in jail. They got carried away in a stressful conditions – big deal.
Bob In Pacifica
Gee, it seemed like so much common sense to me, from first reports, that this was not nightshift tomfoolery, but a reflection if not direct policy from the top.
As a former military myself, and as a former lots of things, I never considered bad treatment of any charges. However, for those who do, the code of military justice used to be a deterrent.
Lines
Shall we take open bets on when Darrell or Defense Guy get here and defend the torture? And then they wonder why people gang up on them?
Those defending torture are the lowest of the low. They arn’t the ones committing the torture, the ones who feel they are gaining something by losing their humanity. No, they are the ones defending, even with 20/20 hindsight, the use of torture in the off chance that it “might” stop an attack on our troops. 2000 dead men and women might disagree. Whats to stop the police from grabbing up minorities that “look” like gang members and submitting them to a water board or a glow stick up the ass, in the off chance that they may stop a gang killing or a cop killing, even though no evidence exists that the event in question will ever happen?
Never mind, that was wasted typing on those that defend our use of torture as “a frat prank” or “blowing off steam” or “means justify the ends”. Pathetic, inhumane fools.
pmm
I look forward to downloading the show when it comes available online, since I dissent from Mr. Cole’s general analysis of this topic based on what I know at this time.
Has anyone actually seen the dozen investigations done on this at the time? I know they are dismissed as whitewash, but it would be nice to read what the DoD has come up with so far.
Defense Guy
You are an idiot. That is all.
Ancient Purple
So, when American prisoners are kept in vats of ice water to induce hypothermia, handcuffed and blindfolded while having attack dogs set upon them, sodomized with broomsticks, and have chemical lights broken and poured on their bodies, it is all just no “big deal.”
Gotcha.
Tim Fuller
The only thing I’m curious about is why the owner of this blog is acting surprised? This information has been out for A LONG TIME now and somebody with a rightleaning political blog OUGHT to be up on this obvious case of NAZISM. And it’s Nazism when they ice down prisoners with anal temp probes (to get them just cold enough but not kill them). This is STRAIGHT OUT OF NAZI CONCENTRATION CAMP Dr. Mengeles stuff!!!
The videos of our troops raping their babies is due out anytime. Are you gonna act just as ‘surprised’ about that too? Just curious.
The folks who signed off on this deserve to be tried as war criminals. Pure and simple.
Enjoy.
John S.
And who says conservatives don’t do moral relativism?
I particularly like Mike’s philosophical ‘if a tree falls in the woods’ quip. If Americans engaging in torture don’t have the ‘liberal’ media around to report it, does it actually happen? I guess not if you hide the body and get rid of the evidence.
Even more fantastic is his channeling of a defense attorney representing any client at a war crimes tribunal. His clients aren’t guilty for the heinous acts they have committed. They were under mental duress and operating in stressful conditions, therefore they aren’t responsible for their actions.
Your version of America vanished over a century ago, Mike. If you want a return to the lawless and vigilante ways of the Wild West, get a Delorean and build a time machine.
pmm
As an Iraq vet, I can assure you that we only eat babies, not rape them. That’s subcontracted to KBR.
TallDave
I’m curious what level of interrogation people feel is acceptable. Is yelling OK? Or must all interrogations be done in a calm and reasonable tone? What about threats? Insults? Stress positions? All unacceptable? Clearly a line needs to be drawn somewhere. But where?
Anyone here ever watch NYPD Blue? A couple cops have told me that was the most honest portrayal of interrogation methods you’ll ever see on TV. Was Andy Sipowicz a torturer and sadist, or a cop who got results and put dangerous criminals behind bars where other milder interrogation methods failed? He went further than our soldiers are allowed to. Sometimes those interrogation methods save lives. How many dead U.S. soldiers are our sensibilities worth? At what point do those methods simply inflame hostilities?
Shygetz
Yeah, and they eat the babies over THERE so we don’t have to eat them HERE. Why do you hate America?
Shygetz
Those are legitimate, honest questions. I think that torture is ineffective at getting reliable intelligence, puts our soldiers at undue risk, demeans the humanity and morale of our soldiers and civillians, and reduces our image in foreign affairs. I reject the unfounded assertion that “Sometimes those interrogation methods save lives” if, by “those interrogation methods” you mean torture. I’ve seen no evidence that torture saves lives, and I would argue that, in the balance, torture costs more lives (e.g. Abu Gharib inflamed the Iraqi insurgency, killing more Americans long-term than it may have saved short-term). I got no problem with yelling or insults (although I don’t know if they are effective). Stress positions are very borderline, and may be too far.
TallDave
I’ll repeat my offer for anyone to compare prisoner abuse in Iraq to prisoner abuse in WW II or U.S. civilian prisons. You’ll find that by reasonable standards, Iraqi prisoners have been treated better than average.
Does that excuse abuse? Of course not, and abusers should be punished. But it does tend to negate the idea this was a policy failure.
TallDave
Shygetz,
Torture may be ineffectve, but harsh interrogations are not.
TallDave
It’s well-established there’s a point of diminishing returns in terms of harshness, but where is that line?
TallDave
Also, you’re mixing apples and orange there Shygetz. Lyndie England was not interrogating anyone. Everyone agrees what happened there was wrong.
Krista
Tall Dave – Those are legitimate, good questions…one we all need to be asking. I agree that when it comes to saving lives, sometimes interrogation needs to be harsh or intimidating. But you’re right…there’s a line. Once you’ve crossed that line, you wind up creating 10 new enemies for every 1 that you’ve caught. There really needs to be a serious, honest review of how the U.S. treats people who are in its custody, be they genuine prisoners, or suspects, or “enemy combatants”.
John S.
And who says conservatives don’t do moral relativism?
Lines
And I have my apologist! Thank you TallDave.
You’re a perfect example of the disgusting brand of human that is destroying this country. The type of person that will put their humanity aside for the ends justify the means.
You’ve totally queered this thread, you’ve made yourself look like a sociopath or a fascist, and you don’t even know it.
Why don’t you just say “there is no crime of torture, because torture itself is undefined”
demimondian
There’s some significant question about that, too. Interrogation that includes sleep deprivation, etc. is actually of at best limited value, even if it is not, techically, torture according to the internationally accepted definitions. (And, yes, T.D., there are internationally accepted definitions of torture.)
It turns out that any treatment which will reduce a prisoner to the state in which he or she thinks “I’ll say anything, just make it stop.” yields exactly that: a prisoner who will say anything, just to make the torment stop. Unsurprisingly, the reliability of what the prisoner says under such circumstances is…limited.
It’s great. People arguing for torture say “the ends justify the means”…except that the means chosen don’t achieve the ends sought.
BumperStickerist
Ok, ‘there is no crime of ‘torture’ because torture itself is undefined’.
The hairshirts, sack cloth, and ashes are over by the corner. Clean up after you’ve finished bemoaning the sorry state of humanity.
I’ll go along with John and say that the problem was systemic. There was command failure regarding training, a lack of clarity regarding instructions, and poor oversight.
The McCain effort to have the revised Army Field Manual be the standard for the military with regard to ‘torture’ clarifies the issue for the soldiers.
However, ‘torture’ is not disallowed.
The change simply means that the appropriate branch of the government, most likely the CIA, would conduct certain interrogations and carry out any torture.
Cassidy
John, I’m surprised. As a former soldier, you know that a failure in leadership does not protect you from a failure in judgement. While they may not be the only ones who should be in jail, England and Graner should most definately be in jail.
I think the big thing here is that torture is a relative term. While I would probably be mildly amused if someone pissed on a bible, Dobson would go into coniptions and feel emoptionally abused. It’s a very open-ended argument. Muslims live in a male-dominated society, so emasculation, through interrogation, by a female is concievably torture. That’s just one example.
Otto Man
So we should base our policy not on the Constitution, but on a Steven Bochco cop show?
I guess I should be glad you didn’t go with “Cop Rock,” and advocate having our interrogators sing to the suspects until they cracked. But the NYPD rule of thumb is almost as stupid.
Almost.
Slartibartfast
Except for the random prisoners that have been tortured to death, that’s probably a true statement.
Verbal interrogation doesn’t constitute torture; no sane person is claiming that. What constitutes torture is, well, stuff like this. Oh, and this is definitely torture.
a guy called larry
I think this bit of fiction comes closer to the truth than NYPD Blue
Cue ‘Dueling Screenwriters’…
Ancient Purple
During WWII, the Papago Butte area of East Phoenix was used as a POW camp for German and Italian army regulars. Over the course of the war, some 4,000 POWs were stationed there. The camp was using the building that once house the U.S. Calvary, until their departure in the 1930s.
POWs were given comfortable quarters and paid $0.10 per hour to dig ditches during the day. During the nights, they were allowed to sit in a small auditorium where American movies were shown to the prisoners. On weekends, they played volleyball in a makeshift pit the prisoners created themselves.
Due to the treatment of the prisoners by the Americans, many of them formally immigrated to the U.S. after the war and formed small communities, specifically a German enclave in what is now called “South Scottsdale” and an Italian enclave in what is now called “Moon Valley” in north Phoenix.
Shygetz
Nope, sorry. The Iraqis didn’t get pissed off because we were torturing people without getting any information (besides, England has always held that the humiliations were part of the ‘softening up’ for later interrogation). They got pissed off because we were torturing people. See, that’s an apple and another apple.
SeesThroughIt
Not only would that be effective (because, really, wouldn’t you crack if you were forced to hear Cop Rock songs for extended periods of time?), it would be kind of awesome. “Don’t make us go Bochco on your ass!”
jg
I’ll take Nice Guy Eddie’s advice over anything Sipowicz has to say.
Otto Man
Agreed. And I’m still not clear on why Sipowicz’s actions somehow support torture in Iraq. I must have missed the episodes where he smeared suspects with menstral blood or waterboarded them or stripped them nude and set the dogs loose. The roughest I remember him getting was slamming some skell back into the cage and shouting at him.
Hopefully Tall Dave can explain it all.
jg
So far Tall Dave has hit us with NYPD Blue and Law and Order. Anything the girls on Charmed can teach us about new american politics?
John S.
Is that art imitating life, or is life imitating the art?
Katherine
I think that people who want a Serious Discussion about “where exactly you draw the line” and “how exactly you know what techniques are acceptable” are being had. It is hard to have that discussion when the administration utterly refuses to discuss specific interrogation techniques, even to say whether waterboarding or mock execution is permitted, because to do so would “provide a road map” to Al Qaida. If that is the case then our Serious Discussion about where the line is would never, ever, ever have any effect at all on policy. So what is it but a distraction?
That goes double for everyone’s irrestible impulse to imagine they are Jack Bauer. The ticking nuke thing is not only ridiculously implausible–it’s actually impossible, because you can’t know in advance that torture will work and nothing short of torture will work. The CIA’s own interrogation manual says it doesn’t, though.
We have real cases where real people have been tortured to death. We have a long and growing paper trail & an increasing number of eyewitnesses that trace this all the way up the chain of command. And the investigations are simply not independent.
I think anyone who cares more about these absurd hypotheticals or these entirely abstract discussions about where the line is, rather than what has actually happened to people and who is responsible–all the way up the chain–either is trying to sell a bill of goods on behalf of the administration, or has been sold a bill of goods by the administration.
srv
Only up to 108 dead in custody!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051019/wl_nm/iraq_usa_abuse_dc
How could any American Hater think this is a problem?