5 Counts:
Obstruction of Justice
Perjury (2x)
False Statements (2x)
Nothing regarding the actual leak, all behavior during the investigation. Stupid and inexcusable. But not treason.
Fire him and move on.
*** Update ***
Libby resigned.
*** Update ***
Oddly enough, Slate is describing me as ‘downplaying the charges.’ I am not sure how calling charges that could put Libby in jail for the rest of his life ‘inexcusable and stupid’ counts as downplaying the charges, but that is their interpretation. If I am doing anything, I am pointing out what the charges don’t state, something I address more fully here. Apparently this is what I get for making short posts. Other than that, the Slate link has an interesting round up.
At any rate, since this post was apparently not clear, let me state that I find the charges to be rather serious. I don’t, however, see them as treasonous, as has been stated for months (years) by the left-wing commentariat. I also recognize that there is a distinct possibility that the reason he has been charged with ‘technical’ crimes rather than anything to do with the actual leak is because the behavior he is alleged to have engaged in (the perjury, false statements, and obstruction), may have concealed the evidence needed to charge him with more serious counts.
Which is why it would be nice if the CIA and/or Fitzgerald would just come forward with an actual accounting of Plame’s status and what happened. The damage has been done- time to air it.
Meanwhile, the WaPo’s Emily Messner is accusing Red State of attempting to change the subject because one of the numerous posters there had the temerity to post about the economy. Fool.
Caroline
This is just the beginning. Apparently there will be another GJ empaneled to continue the investigation.
Tim F
It will be a lot easier to issue pardons if no charges stem from the leak itself.
I doubt this is everything. The 2 pm press conference should be a must-see for everybody not chained to a dungeon without TV or radio.
Gratefulcub
Judging the case without even waiting for the press conference, or any expalanation except for the first couple of minutes of ‘breaking news’ on the cable news networks.
Stupid and inexcusable?
Lines
From the looks of it, the next GJ will be directed towards the manipulation of intelligence in the selling of the war.
Maybe we can put to sleep the meme that “they all had the same intelligence on Iraq” that the chickenhawks like to dole out in large heaps of steaming offal.
rayabacus
Shrug. If Libby is guilty of these charges, he should be punished to the full extent of the law. I say that because the law is the law and Libby, as an attorney, certainly should have known better to lie, if he did.
rayabacus
You can dream.
jcricket
So, if Libby is guilty about lying about all this, then it begs the question: Why did Libby lie about it? Who is his source? Who is guilty of the larger crime and why?
This is just the beginning. Rove is next.
salvage
This has a real tip of the iceberg feel to it, I doubt Scooter acted in a vacuum.
John Cole
Yeah- I generally regard lying to prosecutors and grand juries to be stupid and inexcusable, as well as illegal.
And I don;t think Fitzgerald would indict without a solid case.
Sojourner
Let the games begin. Whoo hoo!!!
Mike S
I thought I heard them read some part of the indictment that said national security was endangered. I think we’ll learn a lot more in an hour.
SLE
I think this is just the start. The larger set of issues will be played out either in the criminal trials to come or in the Wilson’s civil suit.
This would have been much better done in Congress, but Congress refused, so now we get a political battle in the courts. For that I blame Pat Roberts and the White House. They thought they could prevent the battle from ever taking place.
cd6
John you might want to add a note to your post that Libby just resigned
Also, cd6 just laughed
MMM
Treason? Not yet. As mentioned previously, tip of the iceberg….
Gratefulcub
My apologies, after you added ‘but not treason’, I understood what you were saying. At first, it read as Fitzgerald was stupid and inexcusable for spending two years to get a perjury charge.
But really, let’s see what else he has. I seriously doubt this is the last of it.
ppGaz
Libby has done a terrific job. This unpleasantness could not have been anticipated. Honor and integrity were being restored to the White House … who could have known that things like this were going on?
Like Ollie North, Scooter was doing what he thought was right for his country. He is a hero, not a bad guy. Wilson is the one who should go to jail.
/DougJ
db
Move on to what? Move on to the next person in the daisy chain or do you mean forget who this investigation might lead to next?
neil
Nothing regarding the actual leak, all behavior during the investigation.
And John says he’s not on the White House Spin mailing list. Ha!
There is a strong possibility that the crimes he committed during the investigation are the _reason_ there were no charges relating to the leak. It should not, by any means, be used to exonerate him.
Otto Man
This is only the beginning. If we’re moving on from here, it’s going to be up the food chain at the White House and through their push for war.
John Cole
No, I mean Bush/Cheney should fire him and move on. Doesn’t have to though, as he has resigned.
The statement “Nothing regarding the actual leak, all behavior during the investigation,” isn’t spin. It is a statement of fact.
It does no exonerate him, but it sure does not convict him of treason, either.
ppGaz
That’s correct, and it won’t. Fitzpatrick is the consummate guy in this situation. I think we can rest assured that he is way ahead of the blogosphere and Faux News on these things.
Gratefulcub
New GOP website: MoveOn.com
Blue Neponset
Libby shouldn’t have been allowed to resign Cheney should have fired him.
Davebo
Think it’s over?
Luskin refuses to comment…..
Probably the first time in his career that has happened.
Mike S
Copy of indictment at Smoking Gun.
ppGaz
Well, the “T” word is all a creature of the blahsphere. It has never been a serious concern, and won’t be unless somehow the next phase gets into the legalities of the runup to war itself.
We’re a long way from that … so far. I think.
rs
John,do you have any thoughts on Libby’s motive for lying to and obstructing the investigators and grand jury?
db
Does any of the stuff coming out in the indictment mesh with the “special investigation” conducted by John Cole among readers on this site? Or is it too early to start comparing notes?
Tim F
That’s what Novak did when he started to cooperate.
The indictment itself containts a useful timeline. Among other things, it confirms that Plame’s employment was classified and not widely known. It also identifies a mysterious ‘official A,’ not Libby, who first supplied Novak with the name. Fitzgerald knows who all of these people are, so I expect that this story is far from over.
Jon H
The indictment appears to suggest that Libby did these things in several points over a significant span of time. Months.
That, frankly, strikes me as a rather more significant (and more difficult to dismiss) form of perjury/obstruction than, say, a single statement during testimony that could be dismissed as an unthinking, impulsive attempt at self-preservation.
In Libby’s case, it suggests a concerted, maintained effort at misleading investigators.
Jon H
“Luskin refuses to comment”
He’s probably holding out for payment in gold bars.
Davebo
Jon H
Not that there’s anything wrong with that…
Tim F
This press release should also prove helpful.
Mike
Just listening to Rush – these charges are nothing compared to what the Clintons conspired in the sexual harrasment trial, travelgate, etc. They knowingly lied and had their lawyers file false info. According to Rush they were not charged for obstruction and perjury was because the prosecutor felt it would be to disruptive to the country to indict the pres & first lady.
jg
According to Rush…. then I stopped reading. His job is to influence, not inform. Realize that.
ppGaz
LOL.
Sean Flynt
“Nothing regarding the actual leak, all behavior during the investigation. Stupid and inexcusable. But not treason.”
Maybe you should actually read the indictment before “moving on”:
“Disclosure of the fact that such individuals were employed by the CIA had the potential to damage the national security in ways that ranged from preventing the future use of those individuals in a covert capacity, to compromising intelligence-gathering methods and operations, and endangering the safety of CIA employees and those who dealt with them.”
Sounds like treason to me. Not to the GOP, I guess. That position will make for a curious Republican platform in 2006 and 2008, mind you….
Jon H
The indictment talks about Libby dealing with an “Undersecretary of State” in seeking to find out more about Wilson’s trip. That’s probably Bolton.
The indictment says this un-named Undersecretary told Libby in June of 03 that Wilson’s wife worked at CIA.
Andrei
Move on? To what?
Are you not curious why:
1) Libby felt comepelled to lie to the Grand Jury in the first place?
2) Why the President didn’t seemingly know Scooter had Rove had been involved in this whole affair, since the President went on national television saying he wanted to know who in the White House might be involved in such activity?
3) Why Libby was allowed to resign instead of being fired?
4) Why the office of the Vice President felt the need to try and discredit Wilson using such awkward tactics like trying to claim his trip was some sort of boondoggle set up by his wife?
5) Who the real leaker was, and rumors have that person being placed in the office of John Bolton.
6) And if Bolton was connected and Libby got the info from Bolton’s office, why was Bolton given a the spot in the U.N. if people in the White House knew his office had connections to this whole affiar?
The list of questions gets larger, not smaller.
Move on? Oh, I guess we should expect more in depth blog analysis form you on Intelligent Deisgn and Sheehand debates. Let’s count the number of words used in those topics versus your post now on this matter. But I guess we should let the President move on get back to the hard work of increasing defecit spending, coming up with no real end-game strategy on Iraq and generally continue to fuck things up more.
Move along folks. Nothing to see here.
SeesThroughIt
Also according to Rush, peanut butter and bacon fat sandwiches are healthier than any vegetable you can name.
Out of curiosity, does anybody actually think the resignation of Libby makes any difference? If Cheney still wants Libby around, he’ll still be around; it just won’t be in any official, on-the-record capacity. I’m not claiming this is some evil Republican tactic, just a curious wrinkle in how the public deals with politicians in general.
Mike in SLO
Oh, yes, well if Rush ssys so, it must be true, right Mike?
ATS
John: “stupid and inexcusable. But not treason.”
Of course it isn’t. We all know what REAL treason is: disagreeing with any aspects of Bush foreign policy. Because, even if true, any disagreement gives “aid and comfort to the enemy.”
The corollary is that enemy (i.e., OBL and AlQ) derives no aid or comfort at all from seeing the US hopelessly bogged down in Iraq, while the ranks of radical Islam swell with volunteers.
Mike S
Good lord. Looks like Big Pharma is back on drugs. “They knowingly lied” is far worse than Libby knowingly lying.
Orogeny
John,
Do you honestly believe that Libby acted in a vacuum…that Rove, Cheney and Bush had no knowledge of his actions? Whether we’re talking about the actual release of classified information for political gain or just the lies and obstruction of justice that were required when Fitzpatrick began to investigate; can you say with a straight face that you believe he did these things completely on his own?
wilson
Piling on of charges puts Libby at risk for, say, 20 years in prison. That gives him a large incentive to cooperate.
Note that Fitz could have alleged conspiracy but has not done so. Fitz probably wants Libby to concede that what he did (the overt acts) occurred per agreement(s) (conspiracy) with Cheney, Rove, possibly Bush.
The longer Fitz draws things out, the greater the risk Libby (plus Rove, Cheney and Bush) will miss the “window” for pardons.
Fitz knows his trade – clever but not overly aggressive. He picked on the person who “made” Miller go to jail for 85 days. He also focused on the person who wrote the peculiar “Aspens” letter – the one who “looks” most guilty.
Mike S
John’s in a lot of trouble. I’ve seen many instances of him committing treason by the rules stated in that comment.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Does anyone have PROOF that the investigation is going to continue? I mean I have heard the media saying that, but do we really know for sure yet? Or are we waiting on the press conference?
Doug
The jist of the charges are that on June 11 and 12, 2003, Libby was told by an Under Secretary of State and Vice President Cheney, respectively, that Wilson’s wife worked for the CIA. That notwithstanding, he told the grand jury that he hadn’t been aware of that fact when Tim Russert asked him about it on July 11th, 2003. Instead, Libby told the grand jury that he learned it from Russert and that Russert said “all the reporters knew it.” Similar charges with respect to Libby’s false testimony about conversations he had with Judith Miller and Matt Cooper on July 12th, 2003.
John Cole
Andrei, the White House should fire him (moot) and move on.
Fitzgerald is free to continue investigating, and presumably will. But all the indictments suggest the WH needs to do today is rid themselves of Libby and MOVE ON.
You people, I swear.
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
This is just the start, ladies and gents. This is gonna be huge.
I guarantee, while there probably won’t be any more indictments, there will be plenty more Plame Vanity Fair picto-spreads!
Andrei
I didn’t ask you what the White House should do… I asked if you were you not curious about what the indictments beg in terms of larger questions. And what kinds of questions it begs.
It appears others on this blog are interested in those questions I put you as well.
Blue Neponset
It certainly will make a difference politically, but I am sure the VP’s office will still run as well as it has under Libby. Libby, just like anyone else, is replacable. If he is dumb enough to lie to the FBI and a grand jury he probably won’t be as hard to replace as I once thought.
Sojourner
Yeh, I know. It’s absolutely shameful that we are irate over the outing of a CIA agent by WH staff. Sheesh! You’d think something serious had happened – like a concensual blow job!
chefrad
I worked in the House during Watergate, and if that is any indication, this is just the tip of iceberg. So much is still mysterious.
Keep in mind that the bar for treason is set so high that Fitzgerald not opting for that charge means almost nothing.
Tim F
Thank you for your insignhtful comment, OBS. I will cherish it always.
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
Do you really believe that Cooper (wife bigshot at DNC), Wilson (campaigned for Kerry) and Plame acted in a vacuum, that none of this is politically motivated?
Why is Wilson writing Op-eds in the NY Times? Why is Plame posing like Jane Mansfield?
What happens if it comes out during Saddam’s upcoming date with Judge Judy that he WAS trying to buy yellowcake?
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
Yeah, or like the Pres. getting caught lying to a grand jury or something.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Politically motivated to find the truth and there is nothing wrong with that.
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
Or just call VF for a reprint. Plame: Covert and Hot, pages 36 to 41.
When’s the CIA Covert Operative 2006 Calendar coming out?
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
Hmm, maybe the truth can be found in Sandy Berger’s socks.
Otto Man
Right, OBS. She showed her face after her cover had been blown, and that negates the whole scandal.
Sojourner
About a blow job. I can’t tell you how much sleep I lost over this. The damage done to national security… Do you think it was the actual cause of 9/11?
The Disenfranchised Voter
Repeat after me…Red Her-ring
Sojourner
Which of these things happened BEFORE his wife was outed? Other than the op-ed which was written to expose his findings?
I know, I know, details such as timelines are way too complicated for you to understand.
ppGaz
You would THINK that even the stupid people, today of all days, would realize that pulling nonsense out of their asses is going to be used against them later.
You “guarantee” that there probably won’t be any more indictments?
Why don’t you just post an article that says “Hey everybody, I’m a frigging idiot and my handle was chosen for that reason!”
Blue Neponset
OBS, why don’t you just list the things the Bush admin has done wrong that aren’t directly related to the Clinton administration. That might be easier, and it would save us moonbats some reading.
Orogeny
Stupidity
Let’s just say that everything you’ve postulated is true…Joe Wilson was out to get Bush and Saddam was using Judge Judy as his agent buy yellowcake from Niger. Let’s say that Wilson never took a breath without consulting with Ted Kennedy before hand. It doesn’t matter! There’s still no excuse for outing a CIA covert operative. There’s still no excuse for lying under oath and obstructing justice to cover up that action.
Or do you think that that sort of thing is simply good old “conservative politics”?
RSA
It’s pretty clear where John’s attention lies: check out number of posts categorized under “Republican Stupidity” versus “Democratic Stupidity”. I can’t count them directly, but it seems to me that one side has had an enormous advantage lately on the stupidity angle.
ppGaz
The man now speaks. A million tons of useless blog words just disappeared into outer space in five minutes.
Vladi G
Hey Dipshit, when did he start campaigning for Kerry? Hmm, probably sometime after the current administration outed his wife. Maybe it seemed like a good idea to start working for the other guy around that time. Ya know, AFTER he had gone to Africa and AFTER he had written his Op-Ed.
Stupidity pretty much covers your excellent use of wingnut logic.
Tim F
Plenty of time for that my friend! The civil trial hasn’t even started yet.
jg
Because his president, my president, your president, lied and said they have evidence Iraq was seeking yellowcake in Niger. Wilson knows he was lying because Wilsoon was sent to investigate, found there was nothing to the report and told the White House before Bush made the speeech. Citizens speak up. Its not partisan.
Nothing. Saddam can have all the yellowcake he wants. He had no infrastructure to put it to use. It was useless to him. Which lends more credibility to the fact this whole thing was manufactured so people like you would feel more comfortable in invading Iraq. Makes his no existant nuclear program a little more scary, until the facts are learned but don’t worry, Rush and FOX won’t expose you to those facts too mucvh chance of your deeply held beliefs being challenged. Can’t have that. Faith is better for them than your reasoned opinion.
ppGaz
I’m a bitter old man who can’t get an erection.
ppGaz
Precisely. And this was known — well known — in 2002. But even if you doubt that, you can be assured that a little more inspection time in early 2003 would have proved it. In fact, we went in and inspected, and did prove it. Too late.
Steve
Of course Wilson was politically motivated. He was yet another of the old-school Republicans (ambassador under GHWB) who thought the neocon agenda was dangerous and had to be exposed. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Yes, it’s true, Wilson campaigned to oust the administration that ruined his wife’s career. How horrible of him. Now, before that happened, did he campaign for, say, Al Gore? I seem to remember him giving money to George W. Bush in that election.
Defense Guy
Sean Flynt
This part, which you point out in the indictment, is the reason for the investigation, not it’s finding. It’s merely spelling out why they are investigating.
I just read the indictment at the smoking gun and the doj press release (thanks Tim F), and would love to know what the decision was based on regarding the question of who told what to who regarding meetings with the likes of Russert and the others. To be more specific, I am curious how they came to the conclusion in the he said/he said that it was Libby who was lying. Reporters notes perhaps? Anyone know?
To be clear, the timeline laid out in the indictment states that Libby already knew what he later claimed was told to him by reporters, but how do we know that this means he actually told the reporters rather than just played dumb.
ppGaz
Patrick Fitzpatrick, October 28 2005 2:30 EDT
If only that would be the last word on that subject around here.
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
Yeah, so if the Wilsons were so worried about their security, they would never have posed in Vanity Fair, never, not even afterwards. Give it a rest. That defies all semblence of logic.
No one is being indicted for outing a covert CIA agent.
Didn’t Wilson, in one of his reports, cite a report that had yet to be written? Why don’t you guys bring in George Galloway to lend some bluster to all this?
Why is Wilson or any other intel agent allowed to publish articles in a newspaper re: their missions? Again, nice judgment on his part.
Oh, yeah, one more time: No one is being indicted for outing a covert CIA agent.
I’m getting a kick out of you guys defending the CIA, though. You guys must feel pretty strange wearing that American flag, eh, comrades?
ppGaz
*Fitzgerald*
Cyrus
Sojourner Says:
I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you just weren’t paying attention. But the only thing I saw in John’s “You people, I swear,” and I’m reasonably sure I’m right, is that you’re hounding him to immediately start throwing accusations. Because he succinctly said that what Libby did was “stupid and inexusable” instead of launching a long diatribe against him and anyone who works in the same office as him, and then mentioned in passing that the people making the most heated accusations were premature, you’re acting like he supports Rove and Libby in this and think Fitzgerald is doing anything wrong.
It’s not smart and there’s no reason for it.
And, Stupidity,
I’m sure you’ll be amazed to hear this, but none of that is illegal. It wasn’t even or immoral, unless you have secret evidence that the liberal cabal there actually framed Libby. I guess I can’t blame you for being ignorant of such basic facts since the reactionary right has worked so hard all my life to politicize crime, but you should really get this stuff straight before you embarrass yourself any more.
rayabacus
Not true. Iraq was seeking yellowcake. There is no evidence that they were successful in doing so, but that they were seeking to acquire yellowcake and that is what the President said and that is what happened. Even Wilson acknowledged the attempt.
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
This from the same crowd that chants: “But it was just a BJ!”
Why do Leftists only show Patriotism when their country commits a wrongdoing, but never when it achieves a victory?
Otto Man
Well, it’s official: Oh Boy Stupidity is now the dumbest commenter here.
ppGaz
No, you blithering idiot. It’s from Fitzgerald, about ten minutes ago.
Sojourner
Hey asshole. You’re the one defending the outing of a CIA agent and the breach to national security. We lefties are the ones who are worried about our country’s safety, comrade.
Duh.
Mike S
OBS is trying to change the conversation. Ignore him.
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
Uh, go back to school. Take some reading classes. Where did I say it was illegal? Posing for pics after your double secret super identity as a CIA agent has been blown is some pretty stupid behavior, eh? That’s not the behavior of a woman who fears some sort of retribution.
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
That is the funniest thing ever written. How are those “Peace” rallies working out?
ppGaz
Honestly, give it up, man. You are embarassing yourself here today.
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
yeah, right, dude, whatever. I’m defending nothing of the sort. No one is being charged with outing a CIA agent. Okay? Got it?
I long for the days when the Left would say: But the CIA created Saddam, created Osama, made poor black smoke crack. The CIA assassinated the Easter Bunny, raped Snow White, started AIDS in Africa while poisoning cute puppies.
Sojourner
Sadly, they’re being ignored by a WH that’s getting ready to execute a perp walk. And the body count continues to grow. Glad to hear you mock the deaths of our soldiers.
And how’s W doing protecting our borders, nuclear plants, etc.? What’s that I hear…? All the money’s going to Iraq? Hmmm. Perhaps that explains why the American public doesn’t feel so safe any more.
Rick
Farewell, Scooter, we hardly knew ye.
In fact, until a couple months ago, we never knew ye existed at all.
Cordially…
ppGaz
Farewell, Rick, we hardly noticed ye. Ye never had a single useful thing to say.
Cordially,
(p)Rick
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
The Left is worried about National Security. I’m still laughing. Holy cow! That is amazing. Would this be the same Left that still sees nothing wrong with Communist agents working at all levels of the govt.?
The same Left that thinks the War on Terror is a fiction in GW Bush’s mind? That 9-11 was ultimately the U.S.’s fault? The same Left that is more concerned with putting Karl Rove, rather than Saddam Hussein, on trial?
Sojourner
The average American may not know the name but they certainly understand the phrase, Vice President’ Chief of Staff.
Cordially…
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
And just what is your side of the aisle’s plan for the above?
Ancient Purple
Old OBS meme: The Wilsons are traitors and should be indicted.
New OBS meme: The Wilsons are traitors and should be indicted. Oh, and you are all pinko commies.
ppGaz
Well, first you have to get rid of the lying lunatics running the country now. So that would be Step One.
Defense Guy
Too true Rick.
In addition, I just find it fundamentally wrong that a man going under the name ‘Scooter’ would be indicted for anything. To me, the name conjures up images of the loyal sidekick who would no sooner do an illegal deed than he would betray the intrepid hero. The fact that the name, heretofore containing such images of boyscoutful goodness has been tarnished perhaps is worthy of charges in its own right.
Or maybe it’s just me.
Geek, Esq.
Scooter now faces spending the rest of his productive life behind bars unless he fully cooperates.
That means more than recanting his lies. That means FULL disclosure.
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
From the Boston Globe. I feel safe now:
Separately, Clinton administration secretary of state Madeleine K. Albright delivered a report to top Democratic congressional leaders calling for a 50 percent increase in federal spending on homeland security, the creation of a domestic intelligence agency, and a Cabinet-level ranking for the Federal Emergency Management Agency.
(Um, a domestic intel agency? What happened to the FBI? I thought the Patriot Act was evil or something?)
“We are all looking at the Iraq issue, how to make America safe and not leave the situation in complete chaos,” Albright added, echoing many of Kerry’s themes. “The Democrats are basically supportive of the troops.”
(Basically supportive. There’s the Left and their love of country.)
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
Aww, no real comment, huh?. You make up stuff good, though. You do. Really.
ppGaz
Patrick Fitzgerald Oct 28 2005 2:53 EDT
Otto Man
I don’t know what’s sadder — OBS’s lame arguments or the fact that he thinks they’re such great zingers.
Reminds me of Banya from “Seinfeld” with his forty minutes of Ovaltine.
Kimmitt
Okay, hiding behind technicalities of this sort is just beyond pathetic.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Oh boy stupidity indeed. We have a reincarnation of Sen McCarthy on our hands. I think it is best to ignore this guy.
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
Yet, you still think “Bush lied” even though everyone in the world believed the same thing. Now what does “is” mean in this context?
Hey, wait a minute. Wasn’t the CIA responsible for the bad Iraq intel? So…. Plame lied, People died.
The Disenfranchised Voter
I wanna know who the hell “official A” is…
Otto Man
Agreed. It’s the kind of name that should only be saddled on someone who says things like “Gee Willikers!” and “Holy Catapults, Batman!”
Orogeny
Stupidity
If nobody is being investigated for outing a CIA covert operative, exactly what was Scooter lying about? Is it simply part of good old “conservative politics” to lie just to stay in practice?
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
Another classic. Ah, yes, the Left really pursues the truth, but when the truth isn’t to their like, why you’re just hiding behind a technicality.
salvage
Communist agents working at all levels of the govt?
Tinfoil is itchy! Take it off and you’ll feel much better, sounds like you’ve had it on for the last 50 years.
I still can’t believe idiots are spewing the “Eeeevveryone knew she was in the CIA!” dribble. Stick to “Perjury isn’t really a crime.” It’s about as accurate but doesn’t sound quite as stupid.
Oh,Boy.Stupidity!
I have no idea. That’s why we have trials. Where did I say that no one is being investigated….? I said no one was INDICTED for the above.
Sojourner
I know. Let’s go after Cheney and leave poor Scooter alone. Deal?
Lines
And John thinks ppGaz can queer a thread.. I thought Darrell was a master at it, but I guess OBS showed him up today.
Thank you OBS, your ignorant rantings and simian logic are shock and awe inspiring.
Mike S
This press conference is remarkable. It’s a shame that Ken Starr didn’t have this kind of integrity.
Blue Neponset
Kingston has a diary over at Redstate.org
Basically more ‘party over country’ Kay Baily Hutchinson stuff. It really is sad that to Repubs this is just another story that needs to be spun correctly. There have no honor.
LEE
Mike S. said: “I thought I heard them read some part of the indictment that said national security was endangered”–any worse than sandy berger? you lefties might be celebrating too soon… ya’ll have been trying for years to bring down bush and damage US credibility. mostly, with egg on your face. good luck, losers.
Jim Caputo
That’s true, however, according to Fitzgerald, that crime may or may not have been committed and it’s the perjury (i.e. lies) that Libby told the grand jury that prevent that charge from being made.
I’m not sure what rules by which Wilson was bound, but any CIA agent (current or retired) that wants to publish anything having to do with his job must, by law, submit the writing to the agency for review. The material cannot be printed until the agency gives it’s approval.
Rick
Scooter now faces spending the rest of his productive life behind bars unless he fully cooperates.
That means more than recanting his lies. That means FULL disclosure.
Yeah, he’ll be breaking rocks alongside Bubba, who faced *that* ordeal seven years ago.
But I do worry for him, what with being in prison and having a name like Scooter. “Mongo” or “Crusher” would be better.
Cordially…
Sojourner
Poor Lee. He’s not having a good day. I’m so sorry. But no, I don’t feel your pain.
Doug
I suspect “Official A” is Karl Rove. And as for those who think it’s somehow redeeming that nobody has (yet) been indicted for blowing Plame’s cover, perhaps we would know if that particular crime had actually happened if only the Vice President’s chief of staff could be relied upon to tell the truth to the grand jury and the federal investigators.
Otto Man
I was just thinking the same thing. Fitzgerald is playing this by the book and looks like someone who’s utterly competent and completely professional.
It’s going to be interesting to see how the right tries to smear him. Probably a whispering campaign about how he’s working-class Irish and, hey, we all know what they’re like. (Let it be noted that the witness made the “drinky-drinky” motion.)
srv
Yeah, all those people marching in the streets before the war. They believed the same thing.
Otto Man
Yeah, it’s those damn dirty liberals who have damaged US credibility. They’re the ones who lied the country into war, made false presentations to the UN, and bullied their way through the Middle East. They’re the ones who’ve engaged in borrow-and-spend policies that have sent the dollar into the toilet. They’re the ones who threw a tantrum over “freedom fries.” They’re the ones who are pushing intelligent design and sharia law at home and making us the laughingstock of the world.
And by the way, moron, it’s spelled “y’all.” It’s short for “you all.”
Defense Guy
I think we should just let the chips fall where they may. Fitzgerald seems like a straight shooter and a person to whom our trust in unraveling this all is well placed. For that we should at least be thankful, IMO.
That said, I am sure we will start seeing the ‘connections to Cheney’ arguments coming at a rapid fire pace soon enough. Whether they have merit or not, I am more than willing to let Fitzgerald handle.
ppGaz
So, to sum up the right’s contribution here today so far:
1) Clinton!
2) This ain’t important, the guy’s name is “Scooter” for cryin out loud!
3) You lefties are a bunch of losers!
Which really sums up just about 90% of what I’ve seen from them over the last six months here.
Defense Guy
Looks like I still have some work to do.
Being a member in good standing of the VRWC, all statements made by me should have Clinton implied, but because I’m in a giving mood, I’d like to point out that Clinton had 2 members of his cabinet indicted in 1997. Just to keep it real.
Thankfully, I already covered this. Not entirely off my game.
Again, implied, but for the sake of completeness just read the above blockquote.
ppGaz
Oh, Jesus.
Ancient Purple
Any bets on how long until they use the name “Cindy Sheehan”?
LEE
why don’t we sum up the left:
**ken starr: pure evil
**fitzgerald: irish American who is honest as the day is long, but (in time) will get slimed by the evil bushies.
**bush lied about war, even tho most everyone agreed with facts, (except participants on this site)
rethuglicans: pure evil
right wingers kain’t spell (ya’ll/y’all–who gives a rats ass)
please, continue with the hypocracy
Otto Man
True. but they were former Cabinet members — Espy was out of Agriculture in 1994, and Cisneros earlier in 1997. Scooter’s indictment is the first White House official to be indicted since the Grant Administration. Quite an achievement.
Blue Neponset
What conclusions should we draw about Libby’s indictment from this information?
Lines
Who is “most everyone”, LEE? Would that be your little circle jerk of friends?
I’m sorry, but why is the coalition of the willing such a coalition of the few, then?
Mike S
heh
Projectionism is always funny.
Slide
Not treason? Listening to the Fitzgerald’s press conference doesn’t make it sound like Libby will be getting the Medal of Freedom Award anytime soon. oh… wait… forgot who is President.
TREASON……. in high places
Sojourner
Bringing integrity back to the White House.
Gratefulcub
I am so glad there were no indictments on civility thursday.
Rick
Real heavy with substance there yourownself, ppgaz. You should write a book.
Substance from the Balloon Juice commentariat! Pure comedy gold, that though is.
Cordially…
ppGaz
That’s right. You can’t be lying, or even wrong, if ‘most everyone agreed.’
Good point.
Defense Guy
Should we chip in to get em a plaque. I voted for them last election, but feel I should do something more as a token of my appreciation.
The same one you already have I hope, our government is an inherently corrupt institution.
ppGaz
Oh my Gawd you actually said something that could almost be made into a sentence!
Mark the date and time, everyone. This is historic.
Cordially,
(p)Rick
Pug
The civil trial hasn’t even started yet.
Discovery in a civil case, yep. That’s the way to go. Testimony is under oath and there are almost no restrictions on the questions that can be asked.
It worked so well against Clinton I’m amazed it hasn’t been used against Bush yet. The Democrats really have been pretty wimpy in comparison to the Republicans who went out and found Paula Jones to sue Clinton. Hell, even Fitzgerald was appointed by Bush.
Joe Wilson soon could have lawyers putting Bush, Cheney, Rove, Libby and all the rest under oath. Never could figure out why Democrats never learned these tactics from that whacko Larry Whatshisname (can’t remember it right now). After all, it’s just about “the rule of law”.
Don’t worry righties. It won’t do any damage to the country, remember? The President isn’t above the law, remember? Ken Starr said so.
Blue Neponset
So politicians will be politicians, is that it?
ppGaz
Yes, Your government certainly is, sir!
Otto Man
They’ve already started it. They came out whining about how Fitzgerald was an out-of-control bully and now it’s only going to get worse See here and here and here and
here.
Defense Guy
Since I voted for both of the last 2 administrations, and since both seem to have, shall we say ‘less than ethical moments’, perhaps it’s me and I should just stop voting.
Before you try to go to far with this, please understand that it’s nature was lighthearted and a response to ppGaz. Just giving the man what he asked for.
That said, your statement is a little too broad perhaps, but not entirely without merit. I don’t trust any of them to a level that I would like to be able to. Do you?
Pete
Yeah – that was a really dumb decisions to let people sue a sitting president. Really, really bad idea.
I really wish the Republicans would do what they do best – get stupid decisions reversed when they can no longer use it against Deomcrats and it could now be used against them – like the line item veto.
ppGaz
Finally, you are seeing the light ;-)
Just kidding. You can’t take the heat for this team of screwups.
I’d say, it’s Darrell.
Blue Neponset
I was trying to paraphrase you by saying ‘Politicians will be Politicians’. You still haven’t told me what conclusions we can draw from the Clinton era indictments in regard to Libby’s indictment.
ppGaz
We could use that as the basis for agreement here.
If agreement were desired, I mean.
The Disenfranchised Voter
I have a hunch that the underlying investigation isn’t over. I think official A is target, whoever that may be.
Defense Guy
I did, but since you didn’t like that answer, I’ll try to come up with a more pleasing one for you. Nothing? They are completely seperate and individual cases, each deserved of their own individual merits and flaws and unrelated to each other in any other way, except that they were cases of criminal wrongdoing by members of current and/or former administrations.
Now, please remember this is not a real argument we are having. Stupid leftie.
John Gillnitz
rayabacus Says:
Umm…that is “highly doubtful.” Which, BTW, were Wilson’s exact words on the subject. This post has the most details I could find and none show that to be true. Not surprising since Iraq already had lots of yellow-cake, but no way to produce enriched uranium.
ppGaz
Trying to be reasonable? Not so fast ……
Gratefulcub
When does the administration have to answer questions?
Cheney said today, that he couldn’t talk about the facts of an ongoing investigation. That isn’t going to be acceptable for the next 3 years is it?
Do they not have to attempt to square their public statements with the charges in the indictment, including a timeline that make some of their public statements, what is that term, ‘no longer operational’?
Blue Neponset
So I shouldn’t take anything you say seriously? Is that in general or just in regard to this thread?
ppGaz
GW Bush, today.
Defense Guy
I don’t have to be reasonable, my party is in charge. Remember your place man!
ppGaz
Fair enough!
Orogeny
Scooter’s facing a possible 30 year sentence…wonder if he’s enough of a stand-up guy to take serve that kind of time to protect others in the administration? I’d guess there are gonna be some serious plea negotiations going on. “If I give you Rove, what kind of deal can I get? How about Cheney? If I give you Bush, I wanna go into the Witness Protection Program.”
Defense Guy
I suppose you may do whichever it is you think is best. I pointed out once that the response to which you draw my quote was a lighthearted one in response to my failure to act appropriately republican, as seen by mr. ppgaz. I was merely trying to keep up my street creds. My family has to eat too you know!
Lars Gruber
No indictments on treason, but only a goose stepping Republican would believe that nothing treasonous occurred. Only an idiot or coward (which there seems to be plenty of here) would think that Libby lied for no reason.
Clinton was never indicted for receiving consensual sex, but I believe that it still happened.
bok bok Chicken Hawks
rayabacus
Here go read this, then re read the 911 report then tell me why GB is still standing by their assessment that Iraq was seeking purchase of yellowcake. Or do you think Saddam wanted to buy goats from Niger?
http://weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/006/217wnmrb.asp?pg=1
Sojourner
Nah. The true believers will accept whatever shit the Bushies feel like throwing at them. Everybody else wouldn’t believe them anyway.
ppGaz
This will amaze you, DG. I’m scanning three cable outlets, MSNBC, CNN and Faux …. and between them, the one with the most straightforward approach (less silly blathering, more facts) …. is Fox! I mean, for the last half hour, not even a close contest. Those other two are so full of themselves ….. Orrin Hatch and Andrea Mitchell and Pat Buchanan, for crissakes! But Fox is just pretty much just laying out the day’s events in plain Jane fashion.
Gratefulcub
Warning, liberal website about to be sited. Talking Points Memo:
IF the indictment is correct, they knew she was undercover. They also knew they outed her. So, at a bare minimum, IF THE INDICTMENT IS TRUE, they lied to us for 2 years, while they knew they intentionally outed a NOC. Don’t they have to publicly answer: Why did the VP keep a lid on this for 2 years? Why didn’t he get rid of a guy that leaked known classified information?
They can’t say they aren’t going to talk about it for 3 years.
Defense Guy
Be careful ppGaz, keep that up and the next thing you know you will be a Republican.
rayabacus
Fitzferald in his news conference:
Those waiting for the “other shoe” to drop may be disappointed.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Well of course he would. They doesn’t use propaganda for nothing.
Gratefulcub
Ray,
Things that are irrelevant to this case:
1) Wilson lied
2) Iraq was buying yellowcake from Niger
3) Anything to do with Clinton
This case is simple:
Was Plame a NOC
Did Libby know she was a NOC
Did Libby leak that information
If those three answers are yes, the rest doesn’t matter. Joe Wilson could have been a political operative working with John Kerry and Chirac to undermine the Bush administration by making up shit. As long as she was NOC, and they knowingly outed her, they are guilty. As a government official privy to classified material, you don’t get to protect only the spies you like.
Mike S
Why am I always in the middle of a bite of my lunch when I read the funniest lines?
ppGaz
And what a cranky obnoxious Republican I would be!
My party switch is not imminent just yet. Of course if we put up a Clinton-Lieberman ticket in 2008, I’m outta here. I’ll get an elephant tattoo.
Gratefulcub
Agreed. There may be a few more indictments stemming from new cooperative witnesses, but Fitzgerald isn’t going to expand his case to Italian forgeries or the case for war.
The other shoe is going to drop drip by drip in the pages of the NYTimes, WashPost, New Yorker, New Republic, Nation, WashTimes, DailyNews, etc.
The right loves to complain about the liberal media. It doesn’t exist. But, a media full opportunist searching for a pulitzer does. Blood is in the water. All of a sudden it seems worthwhile to take a trip to rome to see what the scoop is on those forgeries. And all of the other information that would have been useful THREE YEARS AGO!
Mac Buckets
If Fitzgerald (who does great press conference, btw, despite the obvious stupidity of 90% of the reporters there — what a bunch of halfwits) would’ve passed 10 indictments to Rove, Cheney, and Bush on charges of outing Plame illegally, I can’t imagine that the anti-Bush mob’s posts here would be that different. Today was a crusher to the “Fitzmas” crowd, who wanted a Cheney Frogmarch Action Figure in their stocking, and got only an off-brand, secondhand Scooter…but in their comments, you’d swear that Fitzgerald found evidence of high treason going up to Bush, plus a steamy homosexual affair between Scooter and Cheney! Hate to break it to you, but all that seems like a regulation moonbat fantasy now.
From what I heard today, I can’t see any indictments for outing Plame coming down the line. Fitz was careful not to use the word “covert” to describe Plame, using “classified” instead. If he couldn’t indict Libby today for violation of espionage acts, knowing who Scooter talked to about Plame, he must not be able to indict anybody for it. I can feel confident in assuming now that the 1982 act doesn’t apply to Plame, because she wasn’t covert.
As for Scooter, he might be one of the dumbest guys around, if the allegations are proven. Lying to cover-up something that wasn’t even a crime? Not his best effort.
Dr. Love
Gratefulclub —
Fitzgerald was careful in the press conference to say Libby knew Mrs. Wilson’s relationship to the CIA was classified. The issue isn’t whether she was undercover, simply that she was classified, and that by blowing that secret Libby damaged national security.
It’s a subtle difference, but important.
Mac Buckets
And by “he,” of course, I mean the Grand Jury. Which is a masculine noun in French. Cough.
Mac Buckets
Don’t bother turning on your FoxNews Mind Control Device, DG. Arizona’s a solid red state — we don’t need ppg.
Defense Guy
This, in addition to the remarks made by Fitz during the press conference (which I didn’t see), are going to be the basis for the charge of cover-up by many who make it. It’s not an entirely uncompelling theory, assuming that a man who serves as chief of staff to the VP is less than a moron, which I think is a fair assumption. If that is true, than how could he make such a bad mistake. The answer will come back, he couldn’t, must have been a coverup.
I would like to see some red meat type facts before I am willing to jump on that particular bandwagon.
Gratefulcub
MacB,
Problem with that theory is that they aren’t stupid.
The Fitzmas crowd, is the fringe shrill left, they are the Malkin crowd. Granted, frog marching Cheney out of the white house today would have been a stretch.
That isn’t what most of us hoped for or expected. Personally, if a crime was committed, and I still believe it was, I wanted an indictment . Now the circus starts, and questions have to be answered. The indictment itself gave every reporter in town a few solid leads to dig into. There are questions I want answered, and unfortunately, congress is uninterested. So, it has to be done in the courts.
-Who created the forgeries? They created the forgeries to get the US into a war. I want to know who did it.
-How did the forgeries get into the intelligence? The CIA rejected them. If news reports are true, they went through Hadley and possibly the OSP, straight to the Pres and VP. That is what the CIA is for, not Doug Feith.
-why was there an Office of Special Plans to analyze intelligence? That is the CIAs job, not Feith’s. The CIA got it right, they said, “He may have weapons, he may want us to think he has weapons, we can’t say anything for sure.” The OSP said they were going nuclear, maybe within a year.
-Why was the WHIG set up? Seems propaganaish, I want to know more about it.
Additionally, the American people need to see how this admin operates. They destroy dissent, inside and outside the government. They turned every process into an echo chamber. If you don’t believe that is dangerous, imagine President Hillary Clinton getting policy devise from no one but the nuts on the Kos message boards.
Defense Guy
True, but my bonuses are based on numbers alone, geographic considerations are not written into my contract.
demimondian
I actually agree with you about this being a blow to the Fitzmas crowd — but I just wanted to say that again. Some plastic-figure manufacturer in coastal China has just been handed the 2005 equivalent of a pet rock (TM)…if he wants it.
pete
Plame probably wasn’t covered by the 1982 act because she hadn’t been overseas for 5 years. But the spirit of the law was certainly violated.
Any employer in the USA who deals with the government would immediately fire an employee who committed such an outing. Both to protect themselves from losing government contracts and for patriotic reasons.
Most people see a solid line between criticizing the CIA and outing an agent, no matter how much they dislike the agent’s or CIA’s behavior. Outing an agent seems to be crosing the line of treason, whether or not a criminal law has been violated.
It’s amazing to me that the WhiteHouse didn’t feel the same.
Rick
Oh my Gawd you actually said something that could almost be made into a sentence!
Mark the date and time, everyone. This is historic.
Cordially,
(p)Rick
Damn, but you’re way too easy to bring to ppgasm.
Cordially…
Gratefulcub
Exactly. Fitzgerald is indicting Libby and continuing the investigation by pressuring libby and others, and will indict everyone else at a later date.
Or, all he could get after two years is 5 counts against scooter.
Or, somewhere in between. We know nothing much at this point. The grand claims on both sides are funny.
The only thing we do know is that Libby was caught with a slip up or an ‘I forgot’. The indictment timeline looks as if Libby told the prosecutors a narrative, over a long period, that was proven to be false.
rs
I still haven’t read any explanation(from the right) why Libby would risk jail by lying and obstructing -it only makes sense if he was trying to conceal something potentially more damaging,unless my understanding of logic and human nature is not what I thought.
Gratefulcub
Why would anyone lie, if they didn’t commit a crime?
Just a theory, but even if it wasn’t a crime, it still isn’t the type of thing you want the voters to know you did. Outing a man’s wife for political revenge can be seen a a bit nasty. Ashcroft was in charge of the investigation. Personally, I thought that Ashcroft would prevent the investigation from going anywhere. Maybe they did too.
John Gillnitz
The weekly standard link didn’t say anything new. The link I provided debunked that as well as a few others that have come up since. Since when does “commercial interests” automatically become uranium? At best this was a vague assumption from someone who was under pressure to provide Iraq/WMD links. We now know that Iraq didn’t have an active nuke program. The whole story is bunk.
Mike S
It’s frustrating because Fitz wouldn’t go into anything not specifically laid out in the indictment. I absolutley admire his integrity but he left us all totally hanging.
ppGaz
From what I heard today, I can’t see any indictments for
Don’t get too giggly over that read. What I heard, and will have to confirm now that the transcript is online, is that he was looking at the criminality of disclosure of classified information (her identity) but couldn’t because Libby lied and obfuscated the search for truth. It was clear to me, anyway, that that pursuit is ongoing and that the Libby indictment is just a step in the process.
This story is a long way from over.
Mac Buckets
What day is this? Are the Bushies all stupid today or are they geniuses?
You know something Fitzgerald doesn’t after two years?
The forgeries are completely overblown. They were debunked almost immediately, they weren’t the basis for the 16 Words, and the 16 Words weren’t the basis for war.
Uncompelling. Yeah, like when Bush sent his jackbooted thugs to squash those 2000th dead soldier rallies, or the pre-war anti-Bush rallies? This Administration doesn’t try to destroy outside dissent — that’s just what the wannabe martyrs want you to believe. As for inside dissent, I don’t know. I’m not in the meetings.
You assume that Democrats want to have policies. Hillary would be Bill without the killer libido — do nothing, and try to give your enemies no ammo.
ppGaz
Yeah, I have a weakness for your bullshit, Rick. No doubt about it.
So, this is what you’ve descended to? Trying to get a rise out of me?
Wow, Cole is not paying you enough.
Defense Guy
Agreed. I was hoping for a settlement of the ‘covert’ status and the closest he got for us was labeling her position ‘classified’. Damnit, I don’t want new words introduced, I want old questions settled.
Another Jeff
That’s exactly where I’m at on this whole thing. Thanks for saying it first so i could just copy and paste it.
Mac Buckets
I may change my Fantasy Football/Basketball teams names to the “Cheney Frogmarch Action Figures.”
But for God’s sake, BUY AMERICAN!
melior
Yes, move on please.
To the investigation and conviction of the participants in the conspiracy evident from the facts detailed in the indictment.
So, John, what’s your opinion: Has Cheney been lying to Bush for a year about his involvement in the smear and coverup, or has Bush been lying to Americans about his knowledge of that involvement?
Either way, that crow has to taste mighty fine.
ppGaz
I think he addressed this to the full extent of his authority (again, I will have to go to the transcript to be sure). He said that he didn’t see it as his job to parse the “difficult” statute that covers the 5-year rule and covert status, but was operating under the more common and easier wording of the law dealing with “classified information.” I think he was pretty clear that he saw what he termed “blowing her cover” as a reveal of classified information. What was not clear to him, because he isn’t done yet, is whether he can make that latter case given the evidence available. To me, it was strongly implied that that is where is he is headed next, but doesn’t want to explicitly spell that out because he cannot without pointing at people not yet charged.
Gratefulcub
You will never hear me say these guys are any less than brilliant. W? Not bright. But most of the rest are. Wolfowitz’s intellect is something I admire greatly. I actual hold him in high regard. I think he is wrong, but I like him.
Of course not, the ‘i think’, or ‘i believe’ should have been the tip off that it was pure conjecture.
Their importance to the war is irrelevant to me. Someone forged documents with one purpose in mind. That purpose was to involve the US in a war with Iraq. I want to know who did that. They should be dealt with, I don’t care if it is italy, France, or Stephen hadley.
I will give you that one. The most useless group of politicians I have ever seen. It isn’t that america is behind the republican agenda, it is the lack of an alternative. I can see it now, our campaign in 06 will consist solely of the other guys are corrupt, and we will have a plan by 07.
Mac Buckets
But if he’s figured out how Libby obstructed, and he knows who Libby learned Plame’s ID from, and he knows who he disclosed Plame’s ID to, then he has all the pieces necessary to press for indictment on disclosure. He did not do so, so it makes sense to me that he’s got nothing on that front. We’ll see.
rayabacus
I suppose Iraq wanted the goats, eh?
I guess not goats, eh.?
Stormy70
Finally – our long national nightmare of Plame Flame threads could be coming to an end. Are the “Rove indictment” parties cancelled?
Hi, Rick!
Mac Buckets
Crow? Scooter Libby on obstuction and perjury? Is that the bombshell all you guys wanted for “Fitzmas?”
Slide
As I am a self-described member in good standing of the FitzMas crowd, I can assure you Mac Buckes I am not disappointed in the least.
Scooter Libby facing 30 years in jail.
The prospect of a trial with all the familiar names testifying right before the mid-term elections.
Rove still under investigation.
FitzGerald talking in very very harsh terms that Libby endangered national security.
Proof that the White House lied to the American public when they said Libby and Rove were in no way involved with the leak.
Judy Miller’s reputation in tatters.
An incredible performance by Fitzgerald that will make it very difficult for the right to attack his motives or partisanship.
Continued scrutiny on the reasons we went to war and ginned up intelligence.
Disappointed Mac Buckets? Hardly.
Mike S
If only.
I’ve been telling people that partying is the wrong thing to do either way. If Rove were guilty it would be an embarrassment to the country.
Since his own lawyer has said that he is still under investigation it looks like the Plame threads are here to stay for a while. I sure wish it was over either way.
ppGaz
I think he needs evidence that holds up in a hard-fought trial, and that means that he needs the testimony, or more definitive testimony, from people already heard. In my opinion, acting as Honorary Pundit just for the moment (hey, I’m almost voting Republican today for cryin out loud), I think that the Libby indictment is a tool for taking that next step. What I heard today was not the description of a completed thing, it was the description of a process in which the Libby indictment is a step in the direction he wants to go. Obviously he is not going to spell that out in direct language, and he made that quite clear. What he also made clear, and what you’ll see in the coming weeks, is that this story isn’t even half over yet. When I get time to get at the transcript later, we can go over those passages at length. He’s just getting warmed up to the next phase of this thing. He has bigger game in his sights.
Slide
Mac Buckets:
Did you even listen to the press conference of Fitzgerald? He didn’t indict on that charge YET because Libby did not testify truthfully. One element of the crime is the mental state “knowingly”. With Libby LYING to the Grand Jury, Fitz did not want to make a judgement on what Libby’s mental state was, especially when he had such serious and juicy charges that he could hit Libby with.
Al Capone was sent to jail for tax evasion. It did not mean he wasn’t a gangster. End result, Capone in jail. Here, end result Libby facing 30 long years in jail.
Sojourner
The reality is we don’t know the scope of his investigation. He said absolutely nothing about that. Libby may very well be like pulling that little thread on a sweater – the first step in unraveling a much larger piece of the picture. It may very well depend on whether Scooter is willing to take the full hit or if he’s going to try to cop a plea.
At the very least, if he doesn’t plea and there’s a trial, I hope it’s televised. We should learn a lot about this administration’s dirty deeds. If he cops a plea, we may still get our Rove perp walk.
And if the Wilsons file a civil suit, look out.
Regardless, this is a tremendous blow to this administration.
Sorry, Stormy, but you will hear a good deal more about the Plame affair before this is all over. I look forward to hearing every sleazy, shameful detail. I also look forward to Rove continuing to be “preoccupied.” Our American democratic republic will be much the better for it.
John Gillnitz
It still doesn’t answer my question. How does “expanding commercial relations” get turned into buying yellow cake? And this from the Senate report:
“(U) On June 17, 2003, nearly five months after the President delivered the State of the Union address, the CIA produced a memorandum for the DCI which said, “since learning that the Iraq-Niger uranium deal was based on false documents earlier this spring, we no longer believe that there is sufficient other reporting to conclude that Iraq pursued uranium from abroad.”
Face it: Iraq did not have a single weapons program that was a threat to the U.S. They didn’t even have an air force, much less an active WMD program. As I said: bunk.
Stormy70
Plame Game Over. If he had bigger game he would have brought it own after two years. Fitzmas is cancelled, Libby will go on probation. The trial will be fun, since once again Wilson is exposed as a liar of the first water.
ppGaz
That’s it in a nutshell.
But some of these bushmonkeys will pimp that Iraq-mushroom cloud fantasy for all it’s worth until the end of time.
Slide
Oh, and another reality check. Another five americans were killed in Iraq today based on the lies of this criminal administration.
ppGaz
Like I said earlier, if there has ever been ONE DAY when it’s wise to say nothing if you don’t know something, this is it.
This game is not even half over, and that statement is just beyond idiotic.
Mike S
Drinking scotch so early?
Mac Buckets
That sounds like wishful thinking to me, especially when Fitzgerald said:
But there’s no law against wishful thinking.
Mac Buckets
John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, and BIll Clinton all appreciate being called “Bushmonkeys,” I’m sure.
Mac Buckets
So all you wanted this Fitzmas was a guy no one’s ever heard of on obstruction and perjury? That might get the Democrats 6 new votes in 2006. If your expectations are that low, you’ll hardly ever be disappointed!
Stormy70
Hah! I wish! Still doing paperwork and checking the threads. No, it is Coronas for me and a date with over twenty shows stacked up on the TIVO.
Off Plame topic, but did anyone see the Apprentice last night?! Best cab ride ever.
Sojourner
That’s our Stormy! Unfazed that the VP’s chief of staff was involved in the outing of a CIA interest. Of course that’s nothing compared to her support for torture.
Slide
QUESTION: When this whole leak investigation started, what were the positions of Mac Buckets and Stormy? Didn’t they say it was “wishful thinking” to think there would be indictments? hmmmm?
ppGaz
Uh, yeah, Mac. You might want to talk to this guy:
That story was filed at 2:30 pm today EDT. While Fitpatrick was talking.
ppGaz
Get back to me after you’ve spoken to them.
Sojourner
The American people may not know his name but I’m confident they will understand what vice president’s chief of staff means.
Mike S
It doesn’t tell us much of anything. And that works both ways. It could mean that he is putting all of the ducks he’s gathered in line for more or it could mean that Libby is it and nothing else is coming.
We just don’t know.
Mac Buckets
You think they need Libby to testify that he “knowingly” mentioned Plame as a CIA employee? That seems silly — he could get off by just saying “I can’t remember.” I’d think that all the evidence Fitzgerald presented today pretty much established that Fitzgerald believes Scooter knew Plame was CIA. So if he has enough evidence to get an indictment for perjury and obstruction, he’s got enough to get an indictment for outing Plame… except that she wasn’t covert.
ppGaz
It just means that the laborious timeline-construction stuff has been done. The flipping of parties now and the wheeling and dealing will now just begin in earnest.
People in the White House are looking at the ignominy of Libby’s desk being cleaned out and at the prison time he is looking at … and new realities are sinking in.
They are considering the hellish realities of getting themselves counsel, participating in a trial … it’s ugly. Very ugly. People in there are turning on each other as we speak. Finally, the people in there are starting to realize what those of us trapped under their damned thumbs feel like …. what it feels like to be screwed. This is not party time down there. An indictment has been handed in the front door for the first time in 135 years. And it would be foolish — Mac Buckets Foolish — to think that this was the last one we’ll see.
Prosecution in a case like this involves a certain amount of theatrics. Fitz has just fired a cannon down the main hallway of the White House. It wasn’t just for show.
Mac Buckets
No… but there still haven’t been indictments on the Plame outing. I wasn’t there to hear the Grand Jury testimony, so I couldn’t have predicted the Libby indictments.
Mac Buckets
And they won’t care, just like no one cared about Sandy Berger.
Mac Buckets
I’m fully aware Rove’s still “under investigation.”
Slide
Mac Buckets trying is darnedest:
First White House official indicted since the Grant administration. Number one adviser to the VP.
more “wishful thinking”:
But of course it’s not just Libby now is it? Its Delay. Its Frist. Its Abramhoff. It the Pentagon spy scandal. Its the missing money in Iraq. Its the “brownie doing a heck of a job”. Its Crony Mier. Politics is never just one thing is it? And how does the public feel about the investigation? Well this CNN poll can’t be too encouraging:
Wow. 78% Mac Buckets. Damn those six Dems must get around.
Mac Buckets
Psychic Friends Network?
Mac Buckets
Keep thinking that means something. You’ll be shocked (again) in the next elections.
Slide
Mac Buckets you talk about low expectations? Your administration has a top official indicted for five felonies, is accused of compromising national security, faces 30 years in prison and you think it is a good day for your side? lol… Now that is what I call low expectations.
Honor and integrity being restored to the White House.
ppGaz
Fitzpatrick speaks; compare and contrast with the bushmonkey nonsense you’ll see in this thread, and every day on this blog:
These blurbs are edited, from the NYT transcript. See the original for the entire text.
Slide
You know you gotta love the kool-aid drinking Mac Buckets. Indictments mean nothing. Polls mean nothing. Support for Iraq war crashing means nothing. Incompetent handling of Katrina means nothing. Crony appointments mean nothing. Slews of top Republicans arrested, indicted or under investigation. Its all meaningless to Mac Buckets. Just liberal wishful thinking. Lol.
StupidityRules
The real fun will start after Scooter has had a little talk with his close friend Judith Miller about her 85 days in jail and decides that he doesn’t want to spend the next 10-30 years locked up. Unless he decides that the 10-30 years would be great for him to work on his poetry.
Sojourner
Mac doesn’t give a shit about people selling out his country. He only cares that his team wins.
How sick is that?
The Irascible Richard Bennett
Sick. Now I have a question for the liberal friends:
Now that lying to a Grand Jury is all of a sudden a huge deal, shouldn’t Bill Clinton be prosecuted?
Ahem.
ppGaz
In case anyone wondered whether R. Bennett is really an idiot …. now you have the smoking gun.
Sojourner
Was there a national security breach involved? If so, damn straight he should.
Stormy70
My position was if Rove outed a covert agent, then burn him. But alas, no covert agent here and no Rove indicment. The burning of Rove will have to wait. In the meantime, Libby was not even charged for outing a covert agent, the actual “crime” being investigated. Lame Plame Game.
Bob In Pacifica
Stormy: In your world, Plame was a pencil-pusher so I don’t think the CIA going to the Justice Department seeking an investigation and prosecution is ever going to change your mind. That is why you are being left behind on this search for truth. Drink your koolaid and LAPHROIG in separate glasses.
Slide
I think Kevin Drum sums it up nicely on what the TRAITOR Scooter Libby did do:
yes, restoring honor and integrity to the White House, GOP style.
Sojourner
Stormy:
OJ was never convicted of murdering Nicole Simpson in a criminal court. Does that mean she wasn’t murdered?
ppGaz
Stormy:
Fitzgerald:
Fitzpatrick:
Her cover was blown. The investigation is not over.
Can you read?
Slide
Since no one is every going to convince Stormy that Ms. Plame was a covert agent, especially after her third glass of Jack Daniels, let me try this. Ms. Plame WAS covert at one time. Can we agree to that? Ok. Now lets say she ceased to be covert and became an annalist. Do you think athat there are still people at risk if that is revealed? The people she recruited in foreign nations to spy for the USA, at great personal risk to themselves, are they not endangered?
What happens when a covert agent or ex covert agent’s identity becomes known all other intelligence agencies in the world check backwards to see if that agent was active in their countries. They check her contacts. They check who she had relationships with, whether five or ten years ago. They are know put at risk. She ran a network of spys developed over 20 years in the agency. To think that because she was switching over from a NOC to official cover agent somehow makes it ok to release her name is just an ignorant statement.
Will this sorry episode make others in foreign countries more or less likely to supply information to the CIA? Won’t this hurt our ability to recruit foreign spys?? Really? Can you not see that someone would have to think twice if they think a CIA agent’s identity can so easily be revealed solely for political reasons.
It was an incredibly un-patriotic thing to do. Whether she was covert or not as defined by the law. Disgraceful. very very un-American?
Slide
Senator Rockefeller has it right on:“It is a terrible day for all Americans when a top White House official is accused of lying and obstructing justice, made all the worse when it’s about a national security matter.
“Revealing the identity of a covert agent is the type of leak that gets people killed. Not only does it end the person’s career, and whatever assignments they may have been working on, it puts that person in grave personal danger as well as their colleagues and all the people they have had contact with over the years.
“These very serious charges go to the heart of whether administration officials misused intelligence by disclosing an undercover CIA agent. They also heighten concerns that the administration engaged in a pattern of misusing intelligence to make the case for going to war with Iraq.
“To date, Congress has completely failed to answer these critical questions. The fact is that at any time the Senate Intelligence Committee pursued a line of questioning that brought us close to the White House, our efforts were thwarted. If my Republican colleagues are not prepared to undertake a full and serious congressional investigation into the potential misuse of intelligence, then I regretfully conclude that we have no choice but to pursue an outside independent investigation. The American people deserve answers and they want the truth.”
“We must send a strong message to all the patriotic Americans in our intelligence agencies who continue to serve their country at great personal risk. Our government and our judicial system will not tolerate those who leak classified information and put the lives of others at risk.”
ppGaz
Twice today I have called the prosecutor “Fitzpatrick”, and I don’t even drink.
If MacFukkits had a hair on his ass, he’d have dinged me for that. Too late.
Slide
Senator Rockefeller has it right on:
.
Slide
sorry for the double posting
Sojourner
For those who could use a little light reading, check this out:
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05956.pdf
Stormy70
Slander! Pistols at dawn.
Heh. Well played my lefty friend, well played.
If she was covert, then Fitzy would have charged, charged, charged. He states that he is not charging Libby for the outing of a covert agent.
ppGaz- Just call him Fitzy and there will be no need to correct his name.
ppGaz
Will do!
Stormy70
Ok, this is funny….on another comments board, someone said he served up a heaping pile of chickenfitz. I found the play on his name very clever.
Gotta watch Threshold and Numbers now, good night, sweet Plamers!
Sojourner
I love it. If someone is not charged with a crime, then there was no crime.
Good G-d, is she for real???
The Irascible Richard Bennett
Well, Sojourner, it’s kinda like this: if a special prosecutor spends two years and countless millions of bucks investigating the crime of blowing the cover of a secret agent and then declines to make a charge, there’s a very high probability that that particular crime didn’t take place.
If that same prosecutor, in the course of his work, finds that somebody double parked or skipped on a bar tab, that may be very, very interesting but it doesn’t relate the the cover-blowing business.
So yes, it’s extremely likely that no crime was committed where Valerie Wilson’s status was concerned. And that’s why conservatives are happy today, and anti-Americans are howling about “continuing investigations” and that sort of cheap baloney.
Sojourner
Well, Richard. It’s kinda like this: an ethical prosecutor will not charge someone with something he cannot prove with reasonable certainty. So you’ve got a bunch of folks who were involved with all of this who have shown their propensity to lie. Exactly who do you think is going to provide the needed evidence?
The last I heard the tab was &750k, a much better deal than the $50m spent on a blow job.
The fact that conservatives are happy to have perjury and obstruction charges against the VP’s chief of staff shows the ethical nose dive they’re in. How pathetic is that. But at least the good news is we won’t hear any more bullshit about the Bushies bringing integrity back to the WH. Just another lie, standard operating procedure for this crew.
ppGaz
Don’t answer that guy, Soj. He is a first-class ass.
Sojourner
Thanks, ppGaz. He would have to be if he thinks perjury charges are something to cheer about.
The Irascible Richard Bennett
Well Sojourner, it’s like this: the Air Hysteria/Michael Moore/Huffy-Puffy crowd has been crowing their lungs out for the past 6 months with ever-more-crazy predictions of Karl Rove and Dick Cheney doing a perp walk. Al Franken, the holy mother of the left, said they would be executed for treason. But at the end of the Grand Jury’s term, all we got was some Martha Stewart charges that will most likely not convince a real jury to return a guilty plea. And if it does, it’s a miscarriage of justice and the president will pardon him.
So at the end of the day, you guys got nothin’, and that has to sting.
(BTW, don’t acknowledge ggGaz, it’s a psycho.)
ppGaz
R Bennett is an asshole who refers to anyone who disagrees with him as “anti-American.”
Maybe he thinks that’s funny, or cute. It isn’t.
Apparently not too many other people think so either; if you look at his “blog”, it’s basically dead of natural causes. I’m guessing he’s here to pimp up traffic to that intellectual wasteland he calls a blog.
But Cole likes him, so here he is. He joins Rick, Darrell and a few other misanthropes around here who make up what I take to be the pom-pom team for what’s left of John Cole’s “Republicanism.”
But if “Repubicanism” means calling opponents anti-American, then fuck both of them.
Sojourner
I think that “Republicanism” means keeping one’s eyes firmly closed, hands tightly clasping ears, in order to avoid recognizing the obvious. It’s really sad.
ppGaz
Apologies, Soj, but I just really can’t stand that guy. However, that shouldn’t get in your way if you want to discuss with him. Ignore me and talk to him all you like.
Sojourner
No thanks. You have far more tolerance than I do so I really don’t see the point.
Make a toast to today’s good news and enjoy the rest of your evening!
ppGaz
Cheers.
Jim Caputo
And Clinton was originally being investigated for a bad land deal in Arkansas, but I doubt you were bemoaning the fact that it evolved into lying under oath about an affair.
Slide
No,no. Fitz told us why he didn’t charge in his press conference and it had nothing to do with her covert status but had to do with another element of the crime “knowingly and intentionally”. He said that since Libby was LYING it was difficult for him to determine what Libby’s intent was (to smear Wilson? to pass along gossip? to only show that the VP didn’t send Wilson? etc.) And since they had good old SCOOTER on enough very easily provable crimes that will land him in jail for 30 years, there was no need to charge him something that may be difficult to prove because of the culpable mental state requirement. Nothing to do with whether she was covert or not.
and my vote for the stupidest comment yet we have this nonsense from Bennett:
Couple of points:
1) didn’t spend countless millions investigation, about $750,000 was spent
2) they did bring charges. Five of them. Very serious charges. The obstruction of justice charge has as harsh a sentence as the Identities act. 30 years worth of charges. The charges amount to Libby premeditatedly devising a scheme to lie, under oath, to prevent the truth about his actions from being discovered. Hmmmmmm….. but according to you that is “evidence” no crime was committed? lol
3) Al Capone was investigated by the “untouchables” for a long long time. They charged him with tax evasion. Does that mean he was not a mobster?
I’ve been in law enforcement for over 25 years. You do what you do to get the bad guy in jail. Use the law to your advantage and charge those crimes that you are most likely to be able to PROVE. It has nothing to do with him not having done the crime but how easy it will be to PROVE BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT that he had the culpable mental state necessary (knowingly and intentionally) to convince a jury of his peers. The practical point is why bother bringing a difficult charge when you have him dead to rights on five other charges which will be easier to prove and that puts him away for a similar amount of time? That sort of charging decision is done all the time.
Peter
A lot of bloggers here have stated that it should have been obvious that Livy et al. did not violate the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, as she had not been overseas within 5 years. And given that, why didn’t Fitz. see this and drop the case rather than pursuing it for 2 years and ending up making no criminal charges directly related to the “outing”.
First, surely most of you know that Ashcroft investigated for 3 months before recusing himself? If it was so obvious no criminal acts had taken place, why couldn’t he determine such in that time frame? Are people going to say that Ashcroft was a partisan against the Bush administration?
More importantly, there are a LOT of ways you can be violating the law when you release potentially classified information (such as a person’s CIA agent status) without permission. For instance, when you get a clearance you sign a “Classified Information Nondisclosure Agreement” that informs you that criminal penalities can be applied for violating the agreement. This agreement prohibits releasing or confirming classified information to unauthorized individuals, even if the information has already been leaked.
It’s not clear why the Fitz investigation did not charge someone with this violation. He did say, as I understand it, that Libby’s perjury had impeded such a finding.
Perhaps it will turn out that Cheney authorized Libby to disclose this information (I’m not sure whether he legally has that authority, but he might). Or maybe this is a charge yet to come.
Another question few seem to be asking is why Cheney didn’t investigate his own employees to quickly determine if an unauthorized disclosure had been made. He could have done this in a few days. If it was obvious that an employee had made such a violation, he could have pulled his clearance and fired him as is typical in such cases. Then the whole affair would have been over.
But Cheney didn’t do that and that is why the investigation was necessary.
wfo
“Fire him and MOVE ON.”
Golly, where’d you ever think of that phrase?
Great idea for a dot com, ain’t it?