For the Republican party, the multiple Jack Abramoff investigations freeze the bowels in a way that the Plame case never will. Rove is dispensible, and you can proably get by if Bush himself resigns in disgrace, but practically every Republican in Washington connects in some way to Jack Abramoff. Not bad in itself; the problem is that most everything Abramoff did was in some way illegal, and everything that wasn’t illegal was sleazy enough to embarrass whomever it touches.
If you’ll forgive a pointed analogy, in the mafia you have to protect the bag man, or if he’s going to turn you have to kill him, because if he talks he can bring the operation down in a way that flipping Joey the hit guy never could. Jack Abramoff linked together a dazzling professional sleaze operation that ranged from ordinary illicit dinners, gifts and trips to fleecing native America casino interests, whose funds ended up in places as unexpected as a 2002 New Hampshire election tampering scam, the criminal trial for which has just begun, to a bizarre mafia-connected cruise ship deal in Florida that ended in a professional hit.
When you put the schadenfreude aspect aside the DeLay indictment basically represents one small, but significant, corner of the Abramoff story. For example in the New Hampshire phone jamming case those extorted Indian funds reached the defendants via DeLay’s own ARMPAC.
As it stands today, the bag man is in custody and his records are in investigators’ hands, along with those of the still-feared capo di capo. Today’s news, for example:
Representative Tom DeLay asked the lobbyist Jack Abramoff to raise money for him through a private charity controlled by Mr. Abramoff, an unusual request that led the lobbyist to try to gather at least $150,000 from his Indian tribe clients and their gambling operations, according to newly disclosed e-mail from the lobbyist’s files.
The electronic messages from 2002, which refer to “Tom” and “Tom’s requests,” appear to be the clearest evidence to date of an effort by Mr. DeLay, a Texas Republican, to pressure Mr. Abramoff and his lobbying partners to raise money for him. The e-mail messages do not specify why Mr. DeLay wanted the money, how it was to be used or why he would want money raised through the auspices of a private charity.
Keep an eye on these stories. The Republican party needs very badly to unfuck this tar baby, and their ability to separate themselves from it may well determine their electoral and legal futures. If their choice for replacing the resigned House Majority leader is any guide, the GOP might want to try harder.
In a nutshell you can sum up the GOP’s biggest problems, and the Democrats’ greatest opportunities, in one word. Rhymes with ‘cheese.’
***Update***
Bob Ney, one of the most Abramoff-tainted Republicans after DeLay himself, just got subpoenaed. Once you get past the stiction phase the screw can start turning pretty fast.
MMM
Refreshing insight from Balloon Juice…only teasing Mr. Cole.
Eural
Bees?
Boombo
Trees. Definately trees. *nods*
circlethewagons
Eural beat me to it.
jg
FREEZE!!!
DougJ
Why does it matter, as long as they’ve got the wackos. Here’s what Michael Scanlon, DeLay’s former chief of staff had to say
Lines
Tease!
aop
“Unfuck this tar baby?”
Lines
Fleas!
I don’t know about you guys, but putting a flea collar on Tom Delay would just be the greatest joy ever.
And if they have fleas, its time to fumigate. Tom could tell that from a 5m video from Texas
Han Meng
Peas, please!
Geek, Esq.
Can we liberals now just refer to the Christian right as “the wackos?”
p.lukasiak
(Ed) Meese?
apologies?
I’m stumped. Could you give us a hint? …….please?
Steve
I’ll take sleaze for $150,000, Alex.
Tim F.
Sleaze!
Sheesh, guys.
Boombo
I know! John Clease!
Defense Guy
Guilt by association. Love it. Since nothing else the Democrats have tried has worked, why not go with this? It’s destined to fail because the people are not likely to buy it, just as they would not be willing to buy the idea that all Democrats are adulterers because Clinton was.
demimondian
Fees. The Rethugs are getting bitten by the anti-progressive nature of the tax cuts they’ve been proposing, of course. How could it be anything else?
circlethewagons
Personally, I like “tease”.
Being sensitive types, particularly when it comes to having their corrupt little selves highlighted, teasing them about their sleaze might indeed work.
Or the dems could just hold them down and tickle them until they say “mercy”.
Rick
… the DeLay indictment basically represents one small, but significant, corner of the Abramoff story.
Well, one way of unfucking the tar baby is to note that the indictment represents nothing more than Ronnie Earle’s attempt at criminalizing his political targets.
Some big advance for Balloon-Juice, this poster is.
Cordially…
aop
Is “fucking the tar baby” an expression I’ve never heard of? It seems unbelievably offensive. Am I misreading it? Bueller?
jcricket
Actually, when a great number of people are actually guilty, it’s called “guilt by being guilty”. Let’s see what we’ve got so far in terms of GOP people under investigation, mostly for separate illegal activities – Reed, Norquist, Abrahamoff, Frist, Delay, the RNC operatives in the Vermont phone jamming scandal, Duke Cunningham, Noe, the whole Ohio GOP, The governor of Kentucky, Delay, Libby & Rove.
Did I miss anyone? Do you really think that Abramahoff, Norquist and Reed only implicate Delay? Seriously?
When the entire GOP leadership in the Senate & House, and the major fundraisers and potentially the White House itself turns out to be actually guilty of crimes will you still call that “guilt by association”? Sure, doesn’t mean all Republicans re guilty, but will you still cling to your fantasy of “isolated incidents”.
As I wrote that it struck me that the Republican reaction to all these indictments and illegal activities is similar to their reaction to Abu Ghraib. Sad, really.
DougJ
I admit the sleaze is bad. But both sides do it.
And why do the Democrats have to *hate* sleaze so much? Jesus forgives sinners. Why is Ronnie Earle trying to send Tom DeLay to jail? Would Jesus prosecute money launderers? No, because Jesus didn’t hate.
Tim F.
For christ’s sake people. It refers to the American legend in which a rabbit tricks a bear into getting stuck to an anthromorphized lump of tar. The more the bear struggled the more stuck it got.
Yes, the story has its origins in black culture, but that has nothing to do with it underlying symbolism. Or maybe some American studies professor says that it does and I never heard about it.
Andrei
Since Rick seems to not desire to contribute little of value to rebutt this post, I’ll try and resepctfully disagree with you and give you more.
The general climate I think of the American moderate or middle position is an overall sense of wariness about the character of all politicians in this modern era. I wouldn’t characterize it as “politicians need to be wiped off the face of the planet” but on most days it feels more like a sense of just wanting to ignore them altogether for how disingenious their rhetoric or empty campaign promises feel.
In that regard, the major swing vote in the country seems like it responds to positive messages in conjunction with a strong odor wafting from the party that has the most sleeze associated with it. However, it never seems enough to have just the sleeze.
If you are suggesting the Democrats have a great opportunity to have their positive messages heard now that their are so many scandals sticking to the GOP like fleas on a mutt, then I’m in total agreement. But the fleas alone won’t do anything because most people are pretty fed up with Washington in the first place. People hold their noses and vote their general tendencies whenever a hopeful message is missing for them.
The GOP and the contract with America did such that. Clinton did just that. Reagan did just that. Heck, even Jimmy Carter got voted in because he seemed like the kind of guy who change the tone in Washington with more positive ideas soon after the stink of Watergate. Most examples require something in the form of hope for the swing voters to vote in a way that changes the pendulum of political power. IMHO of course.
Reid seems like a reasonably smart guy, and has been timing his political tactics with a purposefulness not shown in quite some time for the Dems. It seems like he’s biding time to spring these sort of thing in the very near future. But if the Dems don’t get a clear, positive message soon that sticks throughout the 2006 elections, we’re just going to get more of the same I’m afraid.
aop
Don’t get sensitive. I just hadn’t heard of it.
Boombo
Usury, yes. Money laundering, no.
Paddy O'Shea
New Zogby Poll that shows by a margin of 51 to 45 percent likely voters support considering impeachment if Bush “did not tell the truth about his reasons for going to war with Iraq.”
http://rawstory.com/admin/dbscripts/printstory.php?story=1399
Go Fitz Go!
Lines
The Rude Pundit used a goat. Once you screw a goat, you are forever known as the goat fucker, and no one ever forgets the goat fucker.
From the major goat called Iraq, to the goat called Social Security and the Abromoff Goat, its just smearing the whole Republican party as a bunch of goat fuckers, because at some number X of scandals, it taints the entire party.
But keep apologizing and ignoring and explaining away the embarassment. Its impossible to fully apologize for the goat incidents.
Andrei
A great folktale.
Brer Rabbit and the Tar Baby
John S.
I never thought I’d see you spouting talking points, Rick.
I submit that:
1) The best way to unfuck the tar baby isn’t to claim that the tar baby is really fucking you
2) Conservatives who cry “political” would do well not to politicize their own case and have it backfire on them (Schraub is out, too)
Geek, Esq.
That line of argument didn’t work for people fingered by Sammy “The Bull” Gravano.
Geek, Esq.
Actually, what Ronnie Earle is doing completely separate from the investigation into the Abramoff crime family.
Abramoff was in the middle of a giant association-in-fact RICO enterprise. And untold numbers of Republican activists and leaders are spokes to his hub.
Steve
DG, the thing is, it’s not guilt by association because Abramoff is not just some random Republican fundraiser who got caught doing sleazy things. He was, quite literally, the bagman for the entire Republican political and money machine. When Republicans are winning elections coast-to-coast by using money that Abramoff solicited from Indian tribes and the like under false pretenses, that’s a problem for the whole party, not just for Abramoff.
Kirk Spencer
Andrei, you mention several example of putting out at least the appearance of a plan to clean things up. Then it becomes apparent you haven’t really looked at them from one very critical point of view – timing.
In all the cases you mentioned – Clinton, Reagan, Carter, and the Contract with America – the “We’re cleaning it up” meme began no more than nine months prior to the relevant election. Heck, in the case of the most effective of these (the CwA), the release was a mere 6 weeks prior.
I submit based on the cases you mentioned that the fact the Dems haven’t posted a “how we’re gonna clean it up” at this time is not a failing but rather a smart move. Right now the objective is to make clear how dirty the current situation is. Sometime within the last six months – possibly as late as the beginning of August – the Democrats should announce their plan to clean it all up. There are two tactical advantages to this. First, it gives time for the appearance of corruption to be significantly more blatant – more indictments from current investigations, possibly some convictions on existing indictments, all hitting the news regularly. Second, it removes the amount of time the Republicans have to counter the plan – to point out weaknesses, to distract and obscure where the weaknesses are not, that sort of thing.
So when you say there is no plan, I agree. But when you say this is a disadvantage and that with cases that instead disprove your point, I not only won’t agree, I’ll view future unsupported claims with skepticism.
Defense Guy
Of course the people he fingered were actually guilty of the crimes, were indicted, tried and convicted. When we get to that point, then it will still be only those convicted who you should count as sleazy.
Defense Guy
Bill Clinton was not some random Democrat. We don’t tar Pelosi with the adulterer tag if the tag doesn’t fit.
Problem is, if the people he was soliciting money for did not know that he was using criminal tactics to get the money, then they are simply not guilty of anything. You have to actually prove conspiracy, you can’t just state that its a conspiracy by fact of being related to the GOP.
Geek, Esq.
Having ties to Jack Abramoff’s operation is no different than having ties to the Genovese crime family.
If one doesn’t want to be tarred with the sleaze brush, the response is quite simple: Don’t associate onself with a large-scale criminal enterprise.
Geek, Esq.
Please. Tom DeLay knew what Abramoff was doing. DeLay is a criminal and a shitty human being, but he isn’t an idiot.
His denials of wrongdoing with Abramoff are about as convincing as would be those of Mo Green.
Defense Guy
Sure it is big guy. You bet. He’s the mob.
And if you don’t want to be tarred with the adulterer brush stay away from Bill.
Defense Guy
I’m sure you can prove this in a court of law.
Mike S
I love some of the reasoning here. One line seems to be that the public won’t care about corruption because the New Republicans on the net don’t care if their party is corrupt. I find that as funny as the very left Democrats who post on dKos thinking that they represent the Dem party as a whole.
The other line seems to be that this is all just politics. Tom Delay is a good christian man who would never do anything illegal or unethical. There is no “tip of the iceberg” because there is no iceberg. This one is almost sad because Abramhoff is connected to almost every Republican in congress, not to mention the White House and many states. Then you’ve also got the smaller scaled people like Noe who rips off the tax payers of Ohio and then uses that money to donate to Republicans in both state and national races.
I think you guys need to wake up and face some truths. Right now this is all just back ground noise but it is seeping into the public concious. When the races of 06 start going in full this will be some very persuasive fore ground noise. Your party would be wise to get out in front of it and make some heads roll.
DougJ
I personally think that the hate aimed at DeLay is worse than whatever he did or didn’t to. Just as the criticism of what went on at Abu Ghraib is more offensive than the torture itself and anti-war protesting is almost invariably more barbaric than war itself.
Steve
The comparison to adultery is plain silly. Bill Clinton’s adultery had no benefit for elected Democrats in general. Abramoff was most certainly raising money for elected Republicans in general. No one is going to buy it when Tom DeLay and dozens of other elected Republicans stand up and say “gosh, we had no idea where these millions of dollars were coming from.”
Ross
Ok, we get it, Bill screwed around. If Bill was (literally) prostituting himself out to donors, making the Clenis one of the prime fund raising sources of the dems, then maybe the whole “Bill is an adulterer” meme wouldn’t be so irrelevant. We, or at least I myself, don’t assume that since Bush Jr. never answered the cocaine question that the whole GOP is a bunch of coke heads.
Defense Guy
If your talking about me, then you should read more carefully. I said the public will require actual proof of conspiracy, as it should be.
I base this on the fact that no charges were brought against Hillary in the recent case when someone who was raising money for her was convicted of wrongdoing. Association is not a test for criminality.
neil
Rick, Jack Abramoff was not indicted by Ronnie Earle. Unless you’re saying that the way out for the GOP is to get DeLay off on a technicality, smear Earle, and try to confuse people into thinking that that was all there was to the Abramoff scandals.
Are you saying that, or did they successfully launch the program on you?
Perry Como
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/27/AR2005092700980.html
Just sayin’…
Mr Furious
I was halfway throught the comments before I realized Tim wrote the post and not John…
And here I was, all excited about John’s epiphany…
jaime
I’d say Drew Brees.
I am offended by your use of a mafia anecdote. Why are joining the MSM / DLC anti-Italian racist brigades, John?
Defense Guy
OK. Fine. You hate the GOP and it’s members and that is enough for you to convict. If you had proof of a conspiracy that would be one thing, and I would not be arguing as I am. As it stands you don’t, but that doesn’t seem to matter to you.
Personally, I hope you guys run with this despite the lack of evidence. It will only end up hurting in the end, as Americans are generally loathe to convict someone without substantial due process.
Ross
Wow, DougJ, I’m glad I lurk here regularly enough to know who you are.
Andrei
Agreed, which is what I meant when I said, “Reid seems like a reasonably smart guy, and has been timing his political tactics with a purposefulness not shown in quite some time for the Dems. It seems like he’s biding time to spring these sort of thing in the very near future.”
It seems Reid is waiting for the right moment to spring the new Dem strategy, but until he does at the right time, whenever that may be, we’ll all just have to wait with baited breath won’t we? 8^)
Davebo
Hate to break it too you, but climbing onto your roof and screaming BLOWJOB!! at the top of your lungs doesn’t qualify as arguing.
jaime
Ah yes. Nothing beats forced sodomy with flashlights, hooking electrodes to testicles, and repeatedly shoving feeding tubes in and out of unwilling participants throats is a hell of a lot less offensive than the criticism of those acts.
Hmmm…who would Jesus waterboard?
Mike S
The fact that every day another piece of the many puzzles falls into place doesn’t worry you? E-mails popping up that show that Delay was asking for contributions from certain Abramhoff “charities” isn’t raising red flags?
Abramhoff had direct access to any Republican he chose with one phone call. His money flowed freely and left a nice trail for prosecuters to follow. In six months those connections will be part of every campaign’s commercial’s against someone on those lists.
ScottC
Abramoff is just the prime example of the pattern of the Republican Party using the power of money and propaganda than the power of their ideas.
Defense Guy
Mike S
You still have to prove that the recipients knew the money was tainted, or at least did not perform due dilligance to ensure it wasn’t. Can you do that?
It never worries me when people who actually commit crimes are convicted. I don’t care which party they align themselves with.
Defense Guy
I think you should try again when you figure out what I was talking about. It surely wasn’t a slam on BJ Bill.
Ancient Purple
Like Jose Padilla?
Geek, Esq.
Your analogy would be appropriate only if every member of Congress had one of Bill’s splooge stains on their clothing.
Steve S
The disturbing piece is the hitman. I’ve seen Republicans sink to pretty low levels, but never have I seen them hire hitmen from the mob before.
Mike S
This is where the “cover-up congress” talking points will be used. If the Republicans in congress actually used their investigative powers they might have a leg to stand on as far as claiming that they knew nothing.
Defense Guy
Nope, under this scenario all it would take is for Bill to campaign for any Democrat, then they would be tainted by his criminal acts as well.
Or if you want to stay on the Clinton track, why not address the point I made about Hillary and her recent ‘close call’ with a very similar case.
Now, if you can prove or provide evidence that the recipients of the tainted cash knew it was tainted, well then you have a ballgame. Until then, it’s rank speculation based on the fact that you are inclined to believe the GOP is a criminal enterprise.
Defense Guy
Sure, to those that live in the conspiracy all evidence, pro and con, is evidence of the conspiracy.
jg
Good lord. I never agreed with any of your little quips but I never thought you were dumb. Then this. You seriously think Earle is after Delay for political reasons? I expect that from Darrell but you?
Mike S
I’ve been trying to post a comment about Bob Ney getting a supeona but it keeps coming back failed. I know you gys hate it when I use The Stakeholder but you can find the story there.
jcricket
Plink – DOJ subpoenas Rep. Ney
Tim F.
Evidence is what you get after the investigation. If you never perform an investigation, despite strong suspicions, then you will never have evidence and people like Defense Guy will declare ‘conspiracy theory’ forever.
The good news is, we have investigations. As long as they could keep the questions bottled up in nonexistent Congressional investigations, no problem, until now. The cat’s out of the bag and elected Republicans are scared to death.
Cassidy
Thier should be another rule. If you’re argument is so weak, you have to invoke Clinton’s affairs, just to justify some alleged ILLEGAL activities….then you really have no point at all and you’re just flinging shit.
Defense Guy
Never did that Tim F, but having evidence before you make the claim of criminal wrongdoing is usually the way it works. I guess that doesn’t matter to you.
Perry Como
If you call for an investigation into anything involving a Republican, it’s nothing more than the criminalization of politics.
The Cavalry
The thing is that with Clinton, there was incontrovetible evidence, in the form of a stain. That warrants investigation. Scuttlebut about this or that quadi-illegal thing DeLay or Abramoff did simply doesn’t cut it. And doesn’t warrant investigation unless new evidence comes to light.
Defense Guy
Show me where I justified anything. Turn it around and show me where you can justify convicting anyone who recieved money from Abrimoff without further proof.
Tim F.
You already have what you ask for. We already have numerous investigations around the country in which the evidence is sufficient to proceed with a criminal case.
Defense Guy
Which is potential proof of wrongdoing by those indicted or under investigation only. Not proof of a greater conspiracy of criminality by the GOP.
Perry Como
I expect within the next few months a new talking point will emerge:
The Democrats are criminalizing politics because they can’t beat the Republicans at the voting booth.
Geek, Esq.
Is Tom DeLay above suspicion of criminal wrongdoing in connection with his relationship with Jack Abramoff?
Jorge
Defense guy makes a good point. We don’t know what is going on here yet. All we know is that grand Juries have seen enough evidence to indict Tom Delay, Scooter Libby and Jack Abramoff. We know that Karl Rove is still being investigated by Fitzgerald (Bush said so himself today). And that Frist is being investigated as well. No one has been convicted yet therefore everyone is still legally innocent.
What we need know are public trials and investigations into these matters. No closed doors or secret investigations or court proceedings. The American people have a right to know exactly what did or didn’t happen. I think at this point what we all want and need is transparancy. Let’s get all the info out into the public record before the next elections. Then the American people can make up their own mind.
For those that support Bush and the current Rep leadership, it is obvious that every day the poll numbers and situations get worse and worse. Resolving these issues in the open air is the best hope for restoring the public trust. For those of us who believe that many of these charges will stick it’s obvious why we would want a public accounting. Either way, I think we can all agree on the need for transparency here.
Defense Guy
There is a tenet in this country, sure you have heard of it, something along the lines of innocent until proven guilty. Should we know add an asterisk that states ‘unless affiliated with the GOP’?
Remember this?
The Cavalry
And none of the evidence here looks all the firm. Maybe some of the things done were unethical, but I’m not convinced anything illegal took place.
Like it or not, this is a nation of laws. What you think of DeLay is irrelevant. What the evidence shows is what matters. I thought you guys liked to call yourselves “reality based”.
Ancient Purple
That doesn’t answer his question. He was asking about suspicion, not guilt.
Blue Neposnet
So should the Democrats just keep quiet until a jury of Tom Delay’s peers finds him guilty of a crime? This is politics and we are arguing this case in the court of public opinion where the standard of guilt isn’t even close to beyond a reasonable doubt.
You seem to be asking the Democrats to live up to a standard that is just not realistic and doesn’t seem to apply to the Republicans.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Yea and the guy on the survailence tape killing the clerk is also “innoncent until proven guilty” in a court of law. That doesn’t mean the court of public opinion can’t look at the tape (evidence) and make our own decision that he is guilty.
Perry Como
I don’t know of any rational people that are calling for jail without a trial. But it seems that the mere act of saying something looks suspicious is enough to get shouted down these days — CRIMINALIZATION OF POLITICKckxxs :splurt: :drool:
Oh, look there, FOX paid $14,000 to cover a Delay trip from Sugarland to DC.
Geek, Esq.
Is Tom DeLay above suspicion of criminal wrongdoing?
If yes, please explain why.
If not, please explain why Republicans admire him so much.
Mike S
You can’t be serious. “The cover-up congress” has a fan.
Defense Guy
And that would be my guess as to the attempt being made here, helped on no doubt by the fact that you WANT it to be true. I would not have even entered the conversation if it hadn’t attempted to broaden the scope to include some sort of culpability by the greater GOP.
Defense Guy
No. Does the fact the Tom DeLay is a Republican say something about Republicans, or just about Tom DeLay?
Geek, Esq.
It says something about Tom DeLay and his outspoken supporters and loyalists.
I’m not accusing you of that, but rather movement conservative activists and most Republicans in the House.
Blue Neposnet
The fact that a man who is probbaly the second most influencial Republican in public office got indicted for violating Texas campaign finance laws does in fact say something about the GOP. If Bill Gates was indicted for (fill in a crime) would that not affect the public perception of Microsoft in any way?
Mike S
Or Bob Ney, or Blunt, or Reed, or Abramhoff or Cunningham. It kind of runs deeper than just Tommy.
Defense Guy
So I take it you are off the Abrimoff association says bad things about the GOP and onto the DeLay as an infulential Republican says bad things about the GOP?
Should we just have a standing rule that any possible wrongdoing by a member of the GOP says bad things about the GOP. We can even add the caveat that the more influential that person is, the more it says bad things about the larger group.
Defense Guy
Mike S
Any convictions yet? Plea deals? Anything as to the disposition of the case?
Mike S
So you don’t want to get out in front of it? Do you think Tom Delay screaming so loudly that Earle is politically motivated will be the silver bullet? A man who has prosecuted almost twice as many dems as reps?
Do you think that when they tried to change the ethics rules it was because it was going to make the committee better?
Do you think the public is going to buy all of this?
Geek, Esq.
The GOP’s response has been to rally around Tom DeLay.
Despite the fact that he’s a dedicated big-spender and has severe ethical shortcomings. Don’t forget his rebukes by the House Ethics Committee.
Why can’t the GOP do any better than Tom DeLay?
The Disenfranchised Voter
Delay, Frist, Abramoff, Reed, Libby, etc etc. Not to mention the fact that the GAO criticized the White House for producing covert propaganda. The list goes on and on. It signifies a culture of corruption.
Nikki
I may be wrong, but isn’t that what the Contract for America was all about? Wasn’t it only one Democrat who was charged/convicted of a crime and the scandal became symbolic of the entire party?
We ARE talking about politics, right?
Blue Neposnet
We already do. My actions reflect on all groups that I belong to. The more power I have in any group the greater my actions reflect poorly or positively on that group. This is why some companies won’t let their employees buy liquor while they are wearing a company uniform or pick up hookers in the company’s delivery van.
Think about it, if the CEO of a company gets caught picking up hookers in a company delivery van wouldn’t you say that would reflect more negatively on the company than if one of the company’s shipping clerks was caught doing the same thing?
Defense Guy
I am just willing to allow the individual cases to play themselves out. I would do that if the party affiliation next to the persons name was D or R. I wouldn’t be making the claim that the criminal behavior of John Huang implies a larger conspiracy by Democrats, and I am not about to think it’s a good idea when the shoe is on the other foot.
Defense Guy
And what did you think of that idea when it was happening? If you didn’t like it, as I didn’t, then this should seem familiar to you.
Defense Guy
You know, I bet you had a different idea about that when Clinton was under constant investigation.
les
Defense Guy–are you of the opinion that wrongdoing by a member of the GOP says something good about the GOP? Or that members of the GOP have nothing to do with the GOP? If actions of members and leaders of the GOP don’t say anything about the GOP, are we left with nobody but you to tell us what it really, really is, despite the bad acts of those it attracts and elevates to leadership?
Defense Guy
les
Well gee, turn it around and replace GOP with Democrat and I suppose you have your answers.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Clinton is one guy and frankly, since the constant investigations proved Clinton was innocent, I’m quite pissed that the Republican controlled Senate and House threw away so many tax dollars out of a blind rage to take him down.
Funny how the “White Water” report was 90% about his relationship with Monica Lewinsky.
The main problem I have with Clinton was that he lied to us.
I couldn’t care less if he cheated on his wife. It makes him a bad husband, but it doesn’t make him a bad president.
ppGaz
Filed under “DG stands for Truth, Justice and the American Way.” Waving flag, fade in. Patriotic music up, and out.
DG stands above all petty politics and vulgar concerns. In DGLand, all venal politicians get the same rude treatment, regardless of party. DG is unfailingly fair.
Apologies to Lerner and Loewe.
Steve S
Some advice for my Republican friends here at B-J.com…
When confronted by a mob connected bagman whose been bankrolling half the Republican Party machine, using tactics such as money laundering, misrepresentation, threats, false promises… the usual list of con artist games.
You don’t defend him. You don’t claim “Well the other guys do it too because Bill Clinton got a blow job!”
You cut him loose, and then you demand a full investigation, and you question why candidates for office aren’t giving back campaign contributions to those people Abramhoff ran his protection racket on.
Just a tip. Otherwise you sound like like a partisan hack and reinforce the It’s Ok If Republicans Do It meme.
Defense Guy
TDV
Actually it didn’t, but that is an argument for another day. It seems like you are close to what I am talking about though. His actions can’t taint the larger party, only himself. The same applies in the Hillary associated campaign finance case that went on recently.
Mike S
I understand your point DG. But I think when there is as much smoke as there is right now the fire is going to become visible fairly soon. And as I said earlier the fact that they tried to change the ethics committee rules is only going to exaserbate the problem.
If I saw half the smoke eminating from my party I’d be looking for some water very quickly. Stomping it down from within the party would go a long way toward blunting its effects in 06. And having actual investigations of possibl wrong doings by congress would be even more effectie.
But in about 6 months it is going to be campaign fodder for eus and the fact that congress is shirking its duty to investigate won’t look good at all.
Defense Guy
Just a tip back, don’t put words in my mouth.
Defense Guy
And if and when that happens, I will be the LAST one to be defending anyone who happens to be convicted of a crime.
I have no doubt the attempt will be made to make it a political consideration in the next elections. However, I don’t think it will fly. People are not so stupid as to think that the actions of DeLay or Abrimoff somehow taint McCain or some other not involved Republican.
Defense Guy
You all have a good weekend, and don’t take it personally that I think you are painting with too broad a brush.
It will always be the nature of politics for us to disagree, as we are doing here.
Mike S
A guy like McCain will be insullated nicely. Partly because he is actually investigating Abramhoff as we speak.
But Delay’s tenticles run far and wide throughout the house. And the fact that a very large portion of the GOP has been rallying to his defence is not going to look very good, as Tacitus posted a while back iirc.
Unlike most of the people here I don’t doubt that much. To me you seem to be a pretty straight forward guy and for the most part an honest one. I don’t think you spin any more than most of us do.
jcricket
DG – If your position boils down to us “painting with too broad of a brush” then that’s not unreasonable. I would agree with your point if it were, say, just Cheney’s office under investigation. Or just the Ohio GOP.
But at what point does it start being a symptom of the problem with how the “GOP” operates, and not “isolated incidents”?
Imagine this situation: Democratic leaders in the Senate & House, top white house aides to Clinton, top Democratic fundraisers, the California Democratic party, the Massachusets Democratic party, DNC operatives in the Northeast that ran Kerry’s ’04 campaign – all under indictment or investigation. And the indictments keep coming at a pace that’s hard to keep up with.
Would you really cut us the same slack you’re expecting us to cut you?
jcricket
Oh, I forgot Liddy Dole (subsitute Hillary in my counter-example above), illegally funding propoganda films to get their message out, hiding the true cost of a big new federal entitlement by intimidating the analysts who produced the report.
Seriously, it is hard to keep up/remember.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Well he most cerntainly wasn’t convicted. Maybe I am wrong though…could you show me where Bill Clinton was proven guilty on the corruption charges?
jcricket
The Daily Show to the rescue – Easier to remember scandals when they’re alphabetized. Do we seriously have to wait until “Z” before we start declaring that there’s a problem?
:-)
Geek, Esq.
They certainly don’t taint McCain.
However, they do taint all of those folks wearing Hammer lapel pins on the floor of the House.
jg
Delay spent more than his fair share of time at the corruption trough. He should’ve resigned when he was indicted and let someone else take a place at the trough. He didn’t. He’s greedy. Stop defending him, he’ll go away. This cat makes Gingrich look like a saint.
Richard Bennett
Get back to me when DeLay’s been convicted of something.
Kimmitt
I’m not sure I agree — if the Republican Party becomes the Party of Corruption (which would have the added bonus of accuracy), the brand would even taint McCain, in my opinion.
ATS
I like the part about Indian money going to a sniper school in Israel. Note how the MSM won’t touch it, even though it is really bizzare. Before it is through, this investigation WILL hurt the Republicans. How can it not? De Lay cited Abramoff as being one of his best friends. Ney is just the camel’s nose in the tent.
Steve S
That is because McCain is following my advice, and not trying to defend these clowns.
Take a tip, there, DG… Quick carrying water for people who are using you to line their own pockets.
The Cavalry
I don’t quite see how what Abramoff and DeLay did was so different than Clinton renting out the Lincoln bedroom or Al Gore’s infamous Budhist temple fundraiser. It’s just that for whatever reason, what was once just an embarrassment now seems to have legal ramifications. And only a fool would say the DOJ has it in for Republicans. So I think that probably some of it is the greater media attention paid to Republican misdeeds creating pressure on the DOJ to investigate Republican scandals.
Tractarian
Shorter The Cavalry:
It’s the liberal media’s fault the Republicans are so corrupt!
The Cavalry
You know that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying both parties are equally corrupt (right now anyway, historically the Democrats have been much worse) but that the leftward tilt of the media shines a brighter light on the Republican corruption.
Mike S
I guess if you only have the GOP message machine as a guide you could make that case.
Oh for the days when the scandals of the GOP could be covered up. Damn that media for making the DOJ work!
Funny. The GOP controls all levels of government. If you were even half way correct it would be prosecuting a lot more Democrats than Republicans.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Oh, I guess around 10 ethics charges/admonishments by the Republican controlled House ethics committee isn’t enough for ya?
Give me a break. Delay is as corrupt as they come.
Steve S
Let’s see…
“Give me campaign donations, and I’ll pass legislation in your favor”
versus
“Give me campaign donations, and I’ll let you sleep in the Lincoln Bedroom”
And you don’t see a difference? I guess what’s really fascinating is that Bush has been doing exactly the same thing with the Lincoln Bedroom as Clinton did, and you are not at all outraged.
http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-556.html
And you wonder why many of us think Republicans are stupid?
Jcricket
HAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh wait, you’re serious. Heee hee. Sorry, it’s so hard to stop laughing when someone pulls out the old “liberal media” canard.
How about “the corrupt tilt of the Republicans gives out a white hot heat trail that the media barely has to mention for it to be obvious to the public that there’s corruption in the GOP.” The media loves scandal, which is why Ken Starr was so successful as he kept feeding the media tasty morsels to string them along. 7 years and 75 million dollars later we end up with Clinton lying under oath about sex (itself not a crime)
In contrast, Patrick Fitzgerald spent less than a million and less than two years for 5 indictments, including perjury, obstruction of justice and lying to a grand jury (about something that is a crime). Oh, and he’s not done with the indictments yet (unless you’ve been reading nothing but Powerline for the past two weeks).
Also in contrast, between the time this thread started at now we’ve had subpoenas of Ney, Fox News paying for Delay’s travel to DC, GOP vote supression in WA state and an investigation into Tomlinson (Republican head of the CPB).
But I’m sure that’s just the liberal EM-ES-EM supressing all the good news out of the GOP and/or hiding bad news from the Dems, right? As others have aptly put it, it’s taken the Republicans less than 10 years in charge to “achieve” more corruption than the Democrats achieved in 40. Congratulations.
Richard Bennett
That’s not actually true. The GAO reported charges in the neighborhood of $750,000 for the first 15 months of Fitzgerald’s investigation, but that figure doesn’t count Justice Department attorneys or FBI agents, and it doesn’t cover the last year of the investigation. Fitzgerald has four full-time attorneys on his staff, not counting himself, and if you think five attorneys work for 2 years for less than a million bucks, you’re smoking crack.
Air America spread this rumor, based on a mis-reading of a very poor little piece in the Washington Post. This is how Urban Legends are created.
Clinton’s lies to the Grand Jury and his witness-tampering violated state and federal Civil Rights laws, and they were in fact criminal. The irony of Clinton’s case is that he signed with great fanfare the bill that enabled Paula Jones to dig into his sexual history, so he was hoist on his own petard, to coin a phrase. I don’t generally approve of digging into a politician’s sexual history, but if he caters to the feminist movement by signing witch-hunting laws, it seems to me that he should be man enough to face the consequences instead of whining like a little girl.
It’s also not clear that there was an underlying crime in the Libby case as Plame’s identity couldn’t very well be expected to remain a secret (if it ever was) after Lyin’ Joe published his Op-Ed in the New York Times. If you try and bring down a government through a smear campaign such as the one that Val and Lyin’ Joe perpetrated, you shouldn’t be too surprised if your campaign backfires on you.
The Cavalry
That’s the irony of this: they’re going around whining about being smeared when the reality is that Joe himself was engaging in smear tactics to begin with. It’s almost as bad as Hillary “Hog Futures” Clinton complaining about Tom DeLay. The hypocrisy on the left is simply stunning at times.
nyrev
That kid used to shoplift from The Dollar Tree! How dare he complain about the hostage situation at the bank!
Ignoring the Republican politization of crime for a moment — the jails are going to empty out pretty quickly if the only people who are allowed to comment on crime are those with spotless records.
Marcos
Defense Guy,
It must be a horrible burden on you to be single-handedly holding back the wave of anti-Bush and anti-GOP public sentiment. When was the last time you went off the front lines to see your family? Americans should take heart from your noble sacrifice. Keep fighting the good fight and I’m sure those poll numbers will turn around.
Snarkfully yours,
Marcos
:-)
Otto Man
Don’t ever say another word about Clinton then, OK? There were no convictions there, so he must’ve been pure as the driven snow.
Otto Man
Defense Guy, the Clinton adultery analogy has got to be the most bizarre thing I’ve ever read. Unless Clinton was pimping out Lewinsky to congressional leaders, state officials, and White House aides and getting payment in return.
As someone said earlier, this isn’t guilt by association. This is guilt by guilt.
Mike S
Are we sure this isn’t DougJ?
Jcricket
So you have some facts that disagree with Patrick Fitzgerald’s conclusions about Valerie Plame’s status? Or are you implying that because Joe Wilson wrote an editorial, it’s alright to break laws to get back at him?
I’ll choose Fitzgerald’s conclusions over freeperville, LHG, Powerline, etc. The right-wing assumptions, arguments and talking points have all been wrong on this case.
Jcricket
LHG should be LGF
Dave_Violence
Jack Abramoff, who I will go ahead and assume is guilty of, among other things, screwing the Indians, should be executed. And if, prior to that, or during the hearings, etc. exposes the entire Republican party’s machinery, good. It will be good for America.
And if Hillary! takes advantage of it in her presidential campaign – good for her.
kchiker
What gets to me (and kudos to Mr. Cole for not falling into this camp) is that people of considerable intellectual prowess are STILL convincing themselves that the GOP is NOT corrupt at its core. How many maggots do you have to pick out of the meat before you throw it out?
ATS
Clinton lied about sex. These guys lied about reasons for starting a war.
They hoped the war would be over before anyone looked into the validity of a quickly won war.
It is hard to know how many people really believed it would be a cakewalk. For some, it depended on the quality of the Intel they got. Others were only too ready to cherry pick it.
But they all thought facts on the ground would win out. Like Sharon in the West Bank.
Richard Bennett
What lie was that? Did they say Saddam was Mr. Nice Guy? Did they say he didn’t have 1.5M metric tons of enriched uranium? That he didn’t have long-range missiles and Saran warheads? Did they deny the existence of an Al Qaeda training camp in Iraq? They they claim that Saddam was fully cooperating with Little Hans? That Saddam was in full compliance with all UN resolutions adopted after he was turned out of Kuwait? Did they deny he had nuclear scientists on his payroll, with hidden centrifuges in their rose gardens? That he had no mass grave, rape rooms, or torture centers?
Please be specific, ATS.
Steve S
Something to do with a mushroom cloud, if I’m not mistaken.
Otto Man
How about this one?
The current Republican talking point is that “everyone knew Saddam had WMDs.” Well, it looks like the administration had good evidence that those claims were utter bullshit.
What were those poll numbers favoring impeachment again?
ATS
Richard Bennett asked me to be specific about where lies were used to invade Iraq. Fine. Let’s make it real easy.
Even assuming, arguendo, that ALL the (largely dubious) scattergun justifications he cites were true, we are still left with the pre-war assertion that Iraq posed an EXISTENTIAL threat to the US–so dire that we couldn’t even wait around to persuade traditional allies to pitch in.
That was what sold the public on the war.
Sure Saddam was a bad guy, but we cannot afford to remove the world’s inumerable bad guys at $400b a pop.
Yes, there were numerous parties who believed SH had WMDs before the war, but there were far fewer who believed these weapons posed an urgent threat. If the guys in the WHIG believed this they are even stupider than I imagined.
It makes more sense to think they were duplicitous and lied to us. That is the abiding view of the INR, and now that of the majority at the CIA and DIA.
Let me ask Richard a question: If this is not so, why was the OSP created?
ppGaz
To drive page views to Bennett’s failed blog?
Richard Bennett
I don’t know what an OSP is, but I do know that ATS has built a strawman argument for going to war with Saddam out of the “imminent threat” foolishness. The WMD claim was based on Saddam being real and unacceptable danger, not an imminent one; there was a lot of discussion on this point before the first bombs were dropped.
Tony Blair said it best: 9/11 forced us to reassess risks all around the world, in this analysis it was no longer acceptable to leave Saddam in power.
The sales job could have been better, but it was not a pack of lies.
jcricket
Continuing with the sleaze, looks like more indictments for GOP operatives
Sure, not every Republican is guilty, but at what point are the honest Republicans (other than John Cole) going to grow some backbone and see the corruption rotting their party (and our country) from within?
The Cavalry
Politics has always been a dirty business, whether it’s Tamany Hall or K Street. Neither party has a monopoly on that and indicting a few Republicans on trupmed up charges isn’t going to change that.
Richard Bennett
People get indicted by over-zealous prosecutors all the time, but in America you’re innoncent until proved otherwise.
On the subject of corruption in politics, I think you’d be hard-pressed to find a presidential administration more corrupt than Carter’s. He brought a veritable gang of thieves from Georgia with him to DC, and while he was wearing cardigan sweaters they looted the treasury.
The Cavalry
Carter certainly had a crooked circle around him (Bert Lance, anyone?). Tough to compete with this example of Democratic corruption, though.
Defense Guy
He pled out, or have you chosen to forget this?
Also, the analogy is correct in that the actions of a few or one are not indicitive of a larger conspiracy or complicity, which I am sure in your more calm headed moments, you must know.