The UN has done an audit of post-war reconstruction spending, and I will let you enjoy the thrilling results:
An auditing board sponsored by the United Nations recommended yesterday that the United States repay as much as $208 million to the Iraqi government for contracting work in 2003 and 2004 assigned to Kellogg, Brown & Root, the Halliburton subsidiary.
The work was paid for with Iraqi oil proceeds, but the board said it was either carried out at inflated prices or done poorly. The board did not, however, give examples of poor work.
Some of the work involved postwar fuel imports carried out by K.B.R. that previous audits had criticized as grossly overpriced. But this is the first time that an international auditing group has suggested that the United States repay some of that money to Iraq. The group, known as the International Advisory and Monitoring Board of the Development Fund for Iraq, compiled reports from an array of Pentagon, United States government and private auditors to carry out its analysis.
A spokeswoman for Halliburton, Cathy Mann, said the questions raised in the military audits, carried out in a Pentagon office called the Defense Contract Auditing Agency, had largely focused on issues of paperwork and documentation and alleged nothing about the quality of the work done by K.B.R. The monitoring board relied heavily on the Pentagon audits in drawing its conclusions.
“The auditors have raised questions about the support and the documentation rather than questioning the fact that we have incurred the costs,” Ms. Mann said in an e-mail response to questions. “Therefore, it would be completely wrong to say or imply that any of these costs that were incurred at the client’s direction for its benefit are ‘overcharges.’ “
That is right- the country that has given 2000+ lives and hundreds of billions of dollars to get Iraq to the point we are now, according to the UN, ‘owes’ Iraq money.
Zifnab
Hey, if you don’t like it, don’t go invading nations with no post-war and pullout strategy.
Oh, and don’t have a bunch of crooks in your administration running the show. They’ll inevitably cost you more than they bilk anyone else for.
MrSnrub
Sounds like KBR owes the money.
How’d they ever wind up with those contracts though?
Far North
“…..to get Iraq to the point we are at now……”
And what point would be that, John Cole? A country that seems to be on the verge of civil war a full 32 months after we went in? A country where American soldiers have to barricade themselves in the “Green Zone” so they can live another day a full 30 months after our C-I-C said “Mission Accomplished, Major Combat Operations have ended”?
Things are going so well in Iraq. Just ask Dick (Last Throes) Cheney.
PS. Cindy Sheehan
rs
What “point”are we at,exactly.I must have missed the post where you wrote about your upcoming vacation plans in Baghdad
Far North
After all the good we’ve done in Iraq, the Iraqis should be thanking us for all eternity. And since we did so much good in Iraq, there shouldn’t have to be any accountability on the part of America and Kellog, Brown and Root. It should be “anything goes” because we brought so much good to the country.
I don’t remember the Iraqis asking America to sacrifice its young soldiers to “liberate” them. Maybe we can go check with Scooter. He might know more than he’s letting on about this. Here’s how it probably went:
Phone rings in Scooter’s office. He picks up the phone.
Libby: “Scooter speaking”
Iraq: “Scooter, this is Iraq. Come liberate us”.
Libby: “OK. We’re on it.”
Northman
Admittedly, the US taxpayers don’t deserve this kind of abuse, unless they happen to live in a democracy and voted these corrupt bastards into power.
Humble suggestion: Try and get Cheney to convince his pals at Halliburton to repay Iraq. After all, that’s where the money is now. Why should the citizens of the US have to repay Iraq for a corrupt business while those who benefitted walk off with the proceeds?
Oh, never mind. Excuse me while I go buy some shares in CronyCorp.
Slide
Why doesn’t Halliburton pay back the money they overcharged? Oh, wait, that might hurt Cheney’s stock options.
Maybe the options are in a “blind trust” like Frist? Or maybe the whole fucking Republican party are a bunch of thieving war profiteers?
Fucking crooks.
Zifnab
Should the Democrats take back Congress in ’06 the shit is seriously going to hit the fan – no doubt about it.
ppGaz
Why are we letting the UN take the lead on this? Can’t we keep track of our own accounting?
What the accounting shows in terms of who “owes” whom means nothing here. Gist for the theatrical and for the blahsphere. What matters is that a ton of money is sloshing around and apparently it isn’t being very carefully accounted for.
What a fucking surprise.
And do we have to turn everything into snark? This appears to be a cheap shot at the UN, when in fact, the real story here is that your money is probably being wasted and/or embezzled by assholes who think nobody is looking. I neither trust, nor mistrust, the UN here. I certainly do not trust our own ability to take properly manage these expenditures either. Thanks to the Potatohead Government, I have no reason to trust anything any of these people do now, or anything they say or anything they do.
Stormy70
We can repay it when the UN coughs up the billions it stole through oil for food. The UN has some effeing nerve.
I prefer Haliburton making money rather than the UN. You guys need a new schitck, Haliburton was so Election 2004. Americans making money…whaaaa! Can’t have that, or do you want the French company awarded all the rebuilding contracts?
No wonder some of you guys are the laughingstock of the blogosphere.
Jcricket
John, I think your counter-argument is a bit of a red herring. The US set up the reconstruction efforts with (apparently) no administrative oversight. An environment where the winners of no-bid contract are free to overcharge the Iraqis and never be penalized. The Iraqis who suffered for 30 years under Saddam, just went though a war, and now are under our protection.
Obviously, KBR should be held responsible for the over-charging and should do the repaying. If this Republican administration turns a blind eye to all this and lacks the will to follow through, what should the Iraqis do? Be grateful that we’ve overcharged them $200 million on this contract alone? Thank us for apparently stealing $9 billion from their promised reconstruction?
There are more people now without water and power than there were before the war. Tell me again why the Iraqis shouldn’t press their case with the UN? Why shouldn’t someone else try to help them get their money back? Are you seriously saying that any attempt to hold those in charge of the Iraqi reconstruction (the US government) responsible for properly managing the Iraqi reconstruction is unacceptable, because we won the war? That’s just a ridiculous argument.
If you us to get credit for liberating Iraq, we also have to be accountable for what happens on our watch afterwards. Especially under the auspices of a government contract.
Jcricket
Way to boil the issue down incorrectly Stormy.
First, regarding the UN oil-for-food scandal. Two wrongs don’t make a right (also known as “attacking the person”). Even if I grant you that the UN lacks the credibility to argue exactly how we should manage the contracts, that doesn’t negate the fact that we gouged the Iraqis during reconstruction and they didn’t get their money’s worth.
Regarding Halliburton “making money” – nice straw man. The argument isn’t that Halliburton is making a profit. The argument is that $9 billion in reconstruction money can’t be accounted for. That companies are illegally marking up their services in violation of the contract terms. That the US government is more interested in stuffing the pockets of its contractors than it is in providing basic services to the poor Iraqis, whom we came in to liberate and whose lives we are supposed to be bettering.
Based on the fact that your arguments fail some of the most basic rules of rhetorical logic I suggest you do some reading before you try and make an argument again.
Juan Gewanfri
I think Mr Cole’s point is that the rules shouldn’t apply to America or American corporations. Might makes right is the only principle the republican party has left.
Andrew J. Lazarus
Considering the point Iraq is at now, what we owe them is an apology.
Darrell
The UN, having been embarrassed by US oil-for-food audits and exposed as a bunch of thieving frauds, definitely has an axe to grind in any audit of US activities in Iraq. Hey, if Halliburton really did overcharge, make ’em pay it back with interest and penalties. But the UN is definitely not a disinterested and objective body here.
Ancient Purple
And if things in Iraq weren’t bad enough, it’s time to beat the morale of our soldiers down a little bit more.
So glad to know that this administration is so supportive of our troops.
Jcricket
Yes, remember that only Republicans properly support the troops. Their actions are never to be questioned. I’ve learned from Republican blogs that the only way to support the troops is to never (ever) question GW Bush, we need to eliminate civilian (or congressional) oversight of the military, we should continue to provide confusing and/or contradictory interrogation guidelines to our soldiers, we should ignore our soldiers medical concerns once they come back (or hit them with charges for losing their boots when their feet get blown off) and everyone at Gitmo or Abu Ghraib is guilty.
Oh, and don’t forget the yellow ribbon on your car.
Jcricket
I will grant you that the UN horribly mismanaged the oil-for-food program. The UN should pay back that money.
Now will you grant that the US should pay back Iraq the $9 billion that’s missing from the reconstruction? Or the $200 million on this particular KBR contract? What evidence do you have of the US supporting the inquiry, let alone following up on the results?
If your standard is that a large, multi-national body is forever unable to make criticisms because some in that body are guilty of a crime, then I’m allowed to stop listening to the entire GOP, right now.
Slide
So why was the Coaliton Provisional Authority so inept, to incompetent, so corrupt that the lost track of 9 BILLION dollars? Well, they were young REPUBLICANS thats why. You know, the type of arrogant pricks that are always putting down liberals for not living in the “real world”.
Yes, the Republicans were supposed to be the CEO party. The guys that could get things done efficiently. Right? NINE BILLION DOLLARS unaccounted for, which by the way Stormy is more than the Oil For Food scandal. And it was all of your young REPUBLICANS that were in charge. Shame shame.
Darrell
Well let’s see, we have a corrupt organization which stole billions from a program to feed hungry children.. they perform an ‘audit’ which uses unorthodox subjective criteria, ‘quality’ of work, then when asked to show examples of alleged shoddy work, they don’t have any evidence. So based on your leftist kook-logic, we should then demand that KBR pay $200 million. You seem like a really clear thinker
Andrei
But a true capitalist wouldn’t care who made the money as long as that party made it by being the best and offering the best produccts or services.
The issue wth Halliburton is that there’s no transparency on how they get their contracts wwitht he government. The Veep headed up Halliburton between Gulf War I and Gulf War II, so obviosly it looks a little or a lot fishy to most. If it doesn’t look fishy to you, you might want to consider yourself blinded by the party light. The question I think you should answer:
What’s the difference in the sheenigans behind the oil for food scandal and the accusations behind how Halliburton is getting their extremely lucrative no bid contracts if they are indeed getting the contracts due to insider connections?
Honest question. Attempting to get a honest answer out of you.
FWIW to others, I had thought the oil for food scandal was pegged at $10 billion or so to date, so that would make it $1 billion than the current $9 billion unaccounted for money with the war.
Paddy O'Shea
I wish the UN would audit Halliburton and their devious pals on behalf of the taxpayers of the United States. I suspect they owe us quite a bit more than $200 or so million.
Darrell
The money did not go “missing”. It was spent on salaries, operating and capital expenditures, and reconstruction projects between October 2003 and June 2004. You have a situation in which Bremer says he gave X amount of money to some Iraqi cabinet member for security services and delivery of supplies. Inspector general asks for proof. Maybe the Iraqis provided the security and deliveries, maybe not. Are there receipts for that sort of thing? No doubt, a bit of money was lost through graft and corruption in Iraq, but that’s true of ALL foreign aid, not just Iraq. How much has been skimmed by Egyptians or African dictators over the years? It comes with the territory when you get involved with foreign aid. You partisan hacks scream over the $9 billion in Iraq but remain supportive of other foreign aid which involves similar or more graft and corruption
Kimmitt
(John Stewart)
Wha?
(/John Stewart)
The scandal in Oil for Food was the billions paid in bribes to Saddam, not anything resembling billions going to the UN or even its officers.
Anyways, I agree with Cole on this one; if KBR defrauded the Iraqi government, it shouldn’t be held accountable, because KBR is an American company and Americans are too good to be held accountable for fraud.
Hey, now, it’s not Democrats who are famous for loading container ships full of cash and shipping them to dictators. The $9 billion in Iraq is just the outrage du joir.
RSA
If “we” in “the point we are now” means the U.S. and Iraq together, I think it’s fairer to say that Iraq has contributed tens of thousands of civilian lives to that 2000+ number above. Don’t you think that a fair accounting is the least that the Iraqi people deserve? Not to say that the UN’s judgment is completely accurate, but it’s certainly plausible and worth looking into, given the incompetence of the coalition authority. Otherwise it’s little different from saying, “Hey, we liberated your asses. You’ll take what we give you. So thank us and then shut up, or maybe we’ll liberate you some more.”
jg
This is why Kerry voted against it when the bill came to the floor for the second time. The bill contained no oversight for th ecompany that gotthe reconstruction bid. This is not unexpected. Especially since KBR has a history of overcharging dating back to the Kosovo war.
But this will all blow over as the repubs have their talking points in hand. The nerve of the UN to call someone corrupt. I imagine the debate will now shift off of haliburton and on to the UN. Go Darrell, get busy.
Darrell
The nerve to do so without evidence
B-B-B-But Halliburton!
Paddy O'Shea
I’m starting to get the impression that Darrell might be in the target audience for that Larry The Cable Guy book.
Lord I apologize!
John Cole
Yes, Kimmitt, because I am in favor of corruption and IOKIYAR.
You people.
Darrell
This is where you lefties start attacking me personally because you’re unable to deal with my arguments. Blather on kooks
Paddy O'Shea
Darrell, to be taken seriously you have to earn it. Respect is not something that is given automatically. And nothing you’ve posted here today in any way shows that you deserve anything but ridicule.
stickler
Ppgaz’s cynicism gland seems to have shut down.
Probably? I mean, is there any doubt whatsoever?
jg
Forgot what that means. Any help?
Darrell, what would you say if you saw evidence that haliburton charged the army for office cleanings in Kosovo. Four office cleanings a day they charged. They weren’t doing four office cleanings.
Is it that hard to believe there are people in this country who would abuse a cash cow? Some of them run companies. If this kind of thing wasn’t concievable, there would be no such entity as an oversight committee. I understand your knee jerk defense of this administration but I think you’re ignoring whats likely happening because you feel the need to defend against ‘lefty’ attacks.
ppGaz
Gland? Uh …. back to creative writing class for you.
As for cynicism … let’s see: We have stacks of money going into this clusterfuck over there without apparent tight oversight (or any oversight).
My choice, if this blog is to be believed, is to either chuckle and make snarky remarks a la Cole-Darrell-Stormy, or to wonder if we might (you know, as taxpayers, since is our fucking money) want a little better control and accountability.
Let’s see: Cole-Darrell-Stormy, or some common sense?
I dunno, this is too hard. I am going to need to watch some football and take a drive in the Mustang and get back to you.
Cole-Darrell-Stormy, or my lyin’ eyes? See, it’s challenges like this that keeps this old-timer spry and full of spunk.
Slide
No, of course not Darrell, it was stolen:
Fucking Crooks.
Darrell
You must have missed my earlier statement, so I’ll repost it again
Clear enough for you?
Let’s recap.. because I’m not jumping on the leftist bandwagon screaming over an UNSUBSTANTIATED audit from a corrupt and biased organization, that makes me (according to kook-logic) a “knee jerk” defender of the Bush administration. Got it
Kimmitt
That’s my point — I think you’re wrong in this instance. It is my opinion that you’ve let the conservative feeling that the War in Iraq was a Grand Selfless Adventure overwhelm the fact that fraud is fraud.
Darrell
Slide, that’s quite a list. Do you have a link?
Slide
the terminally naive Darrell spews:
Now how will we find out if they overcharged if anyone that brings it up is attacked and demoted?
Fucking Crooks
Slide
Link to list of abuses under CPA
Darrell
Great. An unsourced blog and allegations from a disgruntled fired employee. That’s something to hang your hat on.
KC
Again, what is IOKIYAR?
Tim F.
It’s OK If You’re A Republican
Darrell
Slide, let’s just pick one of your allegations, the $1.4 billion that never arrived in Irbil. Can you provide a link to a single MSM source (CNN, MSNBC, NY Times, WPost, etc) which covered that story, because I don’t see anything. Please tell us that you have more than an unsourced blog when making such accusations
ppGaz
What makes you a “knee-jerk defender” is the relentless, reliable, unfailing knee-jerk defense you put up every damned day, Darrell. You’re an embarassment to the run of the mill knee-jerk defenders, really. You are giving knee-jerk defenders a bad name.
Bob In Pacifica
Our country invaded a county and 2,000 of ours died, which gives our corporations the right to overcharge?
Well, at least there’s no pretense as to any kind of division between our corporations and what our country stands for.
The Corporate State.
Thanks, John. Enlightening.
Bob In Pacifica
Stormy, the graft made during the oil-for-food program has nothing to do with American taxpayer money. It was graft paid to Saddam by various oil companies for discounted oil from Iraq. Money that went to Saddam came from private corporations. America didn’t lose taxpayer money in the oil-for-food program. To the extent that American companies got cheaper oil, the graft may have in some very small way saved American energy companies a few million bucks.
In the current scandal, Halliburton (well, its subsidiary) ripped off the Iraq government. Again, Halliburton was overcharging another government this time, not our own.
Unless you are a stockholder in Halliburton, there is no “we” here. Halliburton is not yet a branch of our government.
I saw a bottle of Laphroig on the shelf at Trader Joe’s today and I thought of you.
Steve S
It appears Michael Moore is also deserved an apology, when he claimed in his movie that the invasion of Iraq was done to stuff the pockets of the Iraq reconstruction corporations.
What’s next? Next week will you owe John Kerry an apology when it turns out he didn’t actually shoot himself in Vietnam to get out of the war?
You know you guys wouldn’t be so much on the defensive if you weren’t so moronic about who and what you supported.
Bob In Pacifica
Boy, I’d really like an explanation from John Cole and Stormy. Do you people really think that Halliburton is us? Or U.S.?
When John says something like this, I feel like we’re finally getting somewhere. It’s like a patient inadvertantly reveals something in therapy.
Brad R.
John, por favor explain why KBR shouldn’t repay the Iraqi government if it has mismanaged their funds. I really, really don’t get your reasoning here.
Mac Buckets
Thanks for yet another example of the unearned, ignorant arrogance of the fuckwit left. No wonder you guys can’t get elected.
Who would you apologize to, Andrew, for our military actions in Iraq? The Ba’athists? Sure, they’d love an apology — go ahead, have Howard Dean do that tomorrow! I’ll bring the popcorn!
Or would you apologize to the millions and millions of free Iraqi people? The ones who indicate by a three-to-one margin in polls that they are glad Saddam is gone? The ones who, by a two-to-one margin, say that they personally are better off now than before the war? The ones who, by a four-to-one margin, say that Iraq will be even better off in five years? The ones who have voted freely twice now, for the first times in their lives? Sure, go ahead! Only, I’m not sure they’ll be keen to hear that the lefties are sorry for making their lives better.
The Truth is, you don’t have the first clue about what is happening to real Iraqis, because you don’t know any Iraqis, you don’t read any Iraqis, and you don’t want to know any Iraqis — they might threaten your black-and-white “anything that Bush did must be 100% wrong” mindset.
So keep reading Kos and watching yer tee-vee and pretending that you know what’s up. Keep pretending that you know what Iraqis think and feel — after all, they are brown, so they must need liberals to speak “intelligently” for them, right?. Sorry, pal, but you don’t have the right to speak for someone who you’ve never been within 3000 miles of — especially if, to speak for them, you have to plug your ears to stop hearing them contradicting you at the top of their lungs.
ppGaz
Let’s see if I can construct a rational argument from Mac Fukkitz’ round of putting his finger down his throat and barfing all over the thread ….
PG: Bush lied to get us into war. There was no looming mushroom cloud.
MB: Oh yeah? Well a lot of people in Iraq are better off.
PG: Sorry, not good enough. Lying to the American people to make people in Iraq better off is not what we hire presidents to do. THE LYING SUMBITCH IS FIRED. And besides, we don’t know how Iraq will turn out … because nobody really gave that any thought until we were already in there and the shit began to hit the fan all the time. So the INCOMPETANT SUMBITCH IS FIRED for that too.
MB: Oh yeah? Have you BEEN THERE?
PG: No, as a citizen I’m not required to GO THERE to form an opinion and judge whether the spuds are doing their jobs correctly. They aren’t. They’re FIRED.
—//
Sorry, MB, I seem to have shit on your party tray.
Back to you.
Slide
Darrell demands:
Sure, from The Guardian
Darrell
ppgaz doing what he does best, throwing out off-topic strawmen, then hysterically pounding away on them. Mac’s entire post was addressing the ridiculous comment that we owe the Iraqi people an apology. His post had nothing at all to do with justifications leading up to the war or the costs involved, just simply whether or not Iraqis believe they are better off as a result of our actions.
whatever floats your boat man
Darrell
thanks slide, at least that’s better than an unsourced blog. That accusation was made in the context of an editorial though, and was given without source. Can’t find mention of it elsewhere, which is odd
Slide
Mac Asswipe sputters:
You are the one that doesn’t have a clue as to what the Iraqis want as demonstrated by your stream of lies. Here is a poll conducted by the BRITISH MINISTRY OF DEFENSE. Not KOS. Not some liberal blog. The fuckin BRITISH MINISTRY OF DEFENSE. And what did that poll find asswipe? Lets take a look:
and more bad news:
so MacAsswipe who is the ignorant, arrogant fuckwit?
Darrell
Yes slide, everyday we see hundreds and thousands of people marching in the streets all over Iraq begging for the return of Saddam and Baathist party rule
ppGaz
What’s ridiculous about it? Our bungling and lack of planning has multiplied their … and our … misery. It’s prolonged and encouraged the insurgency. It misudged the post-invasion scenario and subjected Iraqis and coaltion troops to unwarranted risk. It brought about a hasty invasion that was clearly not necessary in response to any particular threat.
Just because your tedious knee-jerk mantra doesn’t have room for the idea doesn’t make it “ridiculous”, you stupid little man.
Slide
What the hell does that have to do with anything? What a moronic comment. First off there seems to be “thousands” that are not only marching but risking life and limb to attack us on a ever increasing daily basis. So far this month they have KILLED 17 Americans in just five days. Over 2,000 have died to supposedly “liberate” this country in which we are despised.
Iraq will go down in history as one HUGE strategic blunder. Miscalculations, incompetence, non-existant planning, arrogance, all will combine to make this a huge failure that will have disasterous consequences for our nation. And to think we got into this with the lies of the Bush adminstration. Like I said, History is not going to be kind to the boy emperor. Another pre-invasion lie surfacing in the New York Times tomorrow:
Lying Bastards
oh, and for Darrell, the link.
ppGaz
Try to picture yourself an Iraqi, and turning on your satellite tv to see George Potatohead Dumfuck Bush saying “Bring it on!”
How do you feel now, Darrell, you stupid mornon?
Yeah, my country is in ruins, my job is gone, my electricity is off and it’s a hundred degrees, there’s no running water, I can’t find half of my family, my entire life is in shambles and some ASSHOLE in America is on tv saying “Bring it on” before he gets on his 747 to go flying and eat some prime rib with his pals?
Brilliant, Darrell. Absolutely brilliant.
Slide
Mission Accomplished
The Disenfranchised Voter
Earth to Stormy: American companies benifited the most from the scandal. Uhh derr………..
sarcasm:
Sure, we bombed the shit of Iraq! But that was all COLLATERAL DAMAGE. Why the hell should we have to pay for the destruction that our attacks caused? What the fuck! This is ridiculous! Damn the UN!
/end sarcasm.
Ancient Purple
Talk about a false dichotomy.
Why do they have to be pro-Baathist if they are anti-U.S.? Those aren’t the only choices in the world.
The Disenfranchised Voter
And with only two sentences, Darrell, Ancient Purple makes you look like the fool you are
Good job, AP.
Andrei
Can we agree that this is the sort of comment Cole was trying to ask people to refrain from? Or no? I’d really prefer not to get banned again from trying to make another inappropriate example.
The Cavalry
LOL. They’re not happy with the unrest clearly, but most must be happy that Saddam is gone at least, a fact too many on left refuse to admit.
ppGaz
Well, a billion bucks a week, thousands dead, and the American government paralyzed by a bunch of boobs who can’t shoot straight and lied to gin up a war.
But hell, if those adorable Iraqis are happy, then I’m happy too.
I got news for you Bushmonkeys. Making Iraqis “happy” is not what this country is for. Not in 2002, and not today, and not ever.
Paddy O'Shea
What most of the chickenhawk war lovers here seem to refuse to acknowledge (or they’re just too falt out stupid to know), is that the leader of the dominant Shi’ite faction in Iraq is an Iranian born Grand Ayatollah by the name of Ali al Sistani. A fellow with very close ties to the regime in Tehran. And in case anyone has wondered why it is the Shi’ites have been very cooperative with the elections there, the answer is so simple that even a dumb as wood Bush supporter can understand it.
Ali al Sistani and his pals in Tehran know that once the U.S. leaves Iraq they’ve won. The historic struggle to unite the Shi’ite populations of both Iran and Iraq will have met with success, and Greater Iran will be born.
Of course, there will still be the matter of the Sunnis, but no problem. All Sistani will need to do is summon the Iranian military to deal with these terrorists, and all will be just fine.
This is why many are now calling Bush’s Iraqi adventure perhaps the greatest strategic blunder in U.S. history.
Osama bin Laden can only dream of doing the kind of damage to this country that this moron Bush has done.
ppGaz
A little overstated, but Bush has three more years to fuck stuff up. He could win this thing.
The Disenfranchised Voter
hahah
Darrell
Sistani has told fellow clerics to stay the hell out of politics. Iran on the other hand, is an islamist theocracy whose leaders believe in a supreme religious leader to head the country
Of course Iran is pleased that their mortal enemy Saddam is out of power and they want to do everything they can to keep it that way. A “greater Iran”? Given that Iraq is mostly arab and Iran is mostly non-arab persian, well, whatever you say
ppGaz
Sounds like your cup of tea.
Darrell
If Iran and Iraq’s Shia are so tightly intertwined, then ask yourself, how was Saddam able to wage an 8 year all out war against Iran which was fought largely by Iraqi Shias?
Jon H
“but most must be happy that Saddam is gone at least”
I bet Al Qaeda’s pretty happy about that as well.
Mission Accomplished!
The Cavalry
That’s a very good point.
It should also be remembered that it is a two way street: if Iranians are influencing Iraq’s government, pushing it towards a theocracy, then shouldn’t a newly free Iraq be pushing Iran towards more of a democracy?
Ross
Because Saddam appealed to patriotic nationalism, as did Iran. Interestingly, fairly soon after Iraq invaded, Iran, which had been unified by the Iraqi invasion, was able to push back, and eventually took Iraqi land. Once that happened Saddam was really able to unify the country in a patriotic fervor, and with the new upspring of unifying patriotism, as well as some handy chemical weapons from the US, Iraq was able to effectively fight back against Iran’s human wave tactics.
So basically, the entire time both sides were appealing far more to nationalism than religion. In fact, both sides were downplaying religious commonalities between the two populaces.
Kimmitt
Depends on if Bush and his pals get their anti-food stuff through this year.
scs
And it seems to have worked. Shia Iraq and Iran will probably be as close as US and Canada. Just because you are the same religion doesn’t mean you want to be the same country. Besides, they don’t even speak the same language.
scs
To finish my thoughts, give the Shia people a little credit and stop being so racist. Most of the people of IRAN want a more secular government and can’t because they are led by a radical minority. Why wouldn’t the Shia of Iraq want the same thing if given the chance? So far Al Sistani has shown himself to be independent, moderate and interested in setting up a democracy. Leaders are important and Sistani is setting a good tone. If we set up a good system, and stay in small numbers long enough to stabilize it, I don’t see why it wouldn’t work out. It’s only giving the Iraqi’s what they want.
Paddy O'Shea
Darrell: You need to ask yourself this: If the Shi’ite majority population of Iraq is interested in whatever it is people like you believe is democracy (Disneyland with a Big Mac every day for lunch?), why did they use their votes to empower fundamentalist Shi’ite theocrats?
To deny al Sistani’s ties to Tehran is quite a confession of ignorance on your part. And to suggest that Iran will not fill the vacuum that will be left upon our departure? Nearly infathomable.
What is it you people put in your Kool Aid, anyway?
ppGaz
While the Spud Government bungles Iraq, it is also busy turning the United States into something resembling Saddam Hussein’s regime:
FBI Wants You
“We cannot defend freedom abroad while deserting it at home” — E. R. Murrow
goonie bird
Screw the UN screw koffi annan why should we have to pay anything after all its us the tax payers who will foot this one
ppGaz
That combination food/word processor seems to be working well today, goon. Just toss the words in there, pulse the switch a couple times — bingo! A new post.
Darrell
The clerics stayed out of the elections. Not only that, but Sistani didn’t even endorse a party. By what simpleton-logic do you arrive at the conclusion that “fundamentalist Shiite theocrats” were empowered in Iraq democratic elections? Please explain who all these theocrats (who believe in democratic elections) are. You seem to really know what you’re talking about
Where did I deny that Sistani had ‘ties’ to Iran? Oh that’s right, I never did, you simply made it up. I questioned your predictions of the inevitability of a unified Shia “greater Iran”. Clearly you were not considering the very real differences in race, language and culture between the Shia in Iran and the Shia in Iraq Iraq.. differences which enabled Saddam to wage an 8 year war against Iranian Shia which was fought largely by Iraqi Shia. You didn’t consider those differences because you are a simpleton, and as a simpleton, you leap to simplistic ignorant conclusions
Of course the Iranians are angling for influence in Iraq. Saddam and the Sunnis were Iran’s mortal enemies who had been at war. It is in Iran’s best interest to have a friendly Iraq on its border than a warmongering, unpredictable Saddam. But just because Iran has some ties to Sistani does not make him their ‘puppet’. In fact, his pro-democratic, pro-free election actions have demonstrated that he is an independent thinker. The mullahs in Iran with their jackboot on the Iranian people, can’t be pleased at the prospect of a free and democratic Iraq showing that democracy and freedom are possible in that region
ppGaz
You are but a caricature of yourself, Darrell.
You speak, and wise men everywhere pause to listen, and learn.
Paddy O'Shea
Darrell, it looks like you’ve been taken for a fool by the wily Grand Ayatollah Sistani. Of course Sistani had his clerics low key it for the elections, at least for Western consumption. After all it certainly is in his interest to make the Bushlets feel all warm and fuzzy about the supposed advance of Democracy in the future Islamic Republic of Iraq. Fake a little democracy and soon the Americans will leave. But those clerics you say played no role in the elections there? They sure did turn out the Shi’ite faithful, didn’t they? Yes indeed they did.
Your argument is a dead fish on ice, Darrell. Perhaps it is time you stopped flopping about as well.
W.B. Reeves
There are a lot of silly things on this thread but here is one that hasn’t been noted yet:
As if Iranian influence in Iraq were a product of ideological osmosis rather than a matter of material and financial support. The short answer is no, it is not a two way street. Iraq is a physically and financially prostrate society, in no position to be funneling any resources whatsoever to elements in Iran. It’s this sort of free associative theorizing, untethered from practical realities, that created this horrific debacle.
It’s of a piece with the fate of the whole reverse dominoe theory of bringing democracy to the near and middle East via the overthrow of Saddam. The only tenuous credibility this notion ever possessed was rooted in the expectation that a newborn Iraqi “democracy” would rapidly advance to economic powerhouse status with an attendant rise in the quality of life for the population. This was to inspire a wave of democratic insurgencies throughout the region by its positive example. Three years in, we appear no nearer this goal than when we started. That $9 Billion may have been stolen, embezzled or simply wasted is a symptom of that failure and the reasons for it.
So now, lacking any of the material gains that the original strategy required, war partisans are reduced to brandishing the newly minted Constitution as a great advance before its ink has had time to dry. That and claiming that Iraqi electoral participation represents a ringing endorsement of U.S. policy interests rather than an assertion of the Iraqi desire for autonomy. This is the point we’ve reached and it’s cost us “only” 2000 plus dead and upwards 10,000 maimed and wounded, so far. The butcher’s bill for the Iraqis has been much higher.
Can anyone actually believe that the grotesque and macabre spectacle that is Iraq could inspire emulation? Well, perhaps amongst the jihadists.
So we must avert our eyes from the invasion/occupation’s failure to accomplish its economic and political miracle and focus on the temerity and ingratitude of those suggesting that the missing funds be coughed up. Otherwise we might have to discard the ‘magic thinking’ that got us into this mess.
ppGaz
A good thread-ender. One can neither add to nor improve upon your argument.
Don
Given that we’re “hundreds of billions of dollars” in on this, why the fuck are you getting wound up over 208 million?
les
Uh, gee, I don’t know; because the $208MM was stolen by a corrupt contractor???? Because the corrupt contractor was hired without bid by an incompetent administration, the VEEP of which will personally benefit by the theft???? Because it’s of a piece with the incompetence, greed and arrogance that’s costing us the billions in the first place???? Uh, nothin’ interestin’ here boss, just move along, move along.