The Toronto Star has a modest proposal:
Here’s an idea, and I can’t believe I’m the first to come up with this modest proposal, but why doesn’t the U.S. government just go ahead and torture Lewis “Scooter” Libby? And not just for that ridiculous name.
Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald has laid five charges against Libby related to the investigation into how an undercover CIA operative’s identity was leaked to the press. One can only imagine how long it’s going to take for Fitzgerald to lay out the evidence, to put witnesses on the stand, to build a case against Libby, and find out whether he lied to cover up for his actions or those of others at the White House.
Who knows how many other CIA agents may be outed while this case works its way through the courts?
Now, couldn’t the whole process be expedited if Fitzgerald could attach a few electrodes to Libby’s chest and then crank up the volts?
Some of you might find this position a bit extreme, but unless I’m reading the situation all wrong, this is exactly the sort of thing that Libby’s boss, vice-president Dick Cheney, could get behind.
Read the whole thing.
(h/t Arthur Silber)
ppGaz
I thought that Judy Miller had already done that. Scooter called it foreplay.
KC
Ppgaz, thanks for the laugh.
Jack Roy
Okay, I was gonna say I didn’t see the funny until Gaz pointed it out.
Chucklesnort.
Charlie (Colorado)
Well, I don’t know but I’d guess the difference might be that LIBBY ISN’T A MEMBER OF A FASCIST THEOCRATIC MOVEMENT INTENT ON MASS MURDER AND THE COMPLETE DESTRUCTION OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION!!?
You got any more idiotic fucking questions?
Davebo
Anyone really suprised that the Canadians hate America almost as much as the Americans do?
Barry D
Charlie, nobody accused him of that. He is a traitor who harmed the national security of the United States of America for partisan advantage. Homegrown, and non-Islamic.
Although now that you’ve raised the issue, this administration *has* acted as if they’re in bed with Osama. Better torture the lot of them.
Steve S
Oh come on. It’s no worse than a fraternity prank.
What’s the harm of a little torture between friends?
ppGaz
Just one: What the hell is the matter with you?
SeesThroughIt
You know the easiest way for an American to piss off a Canadian? Say, “You guys are just like us!”
David Zincavage
Why is John Cole selling out to the left?
I’m a long-time reader. Balloon Juice used to sit in the “Essential Blogs” category in my blog links. I created a new category today: On Probation, to which I’ve relocated Balloon Juice.
You’ll be hearing from me on my relatively new blog in response to all your “Now be nice to those murdering terrorists, and be sure to read then their Miranda rights” postings.
Allow me to recommend this link to Power-Line:
http://neveryetmelted.com/?p=67
David
Vladi G
Then again, neither were just all about all of the people WE RELEASED from Gitmo. At least, they weren’t before we tortured, then released them.
Steve
We need to lock the “it’s treason to even suggest we torture” Right in a room with the “we absolutely need to torture” Right and let them fight it out.
John Cole
Oh Good Christ Almighty.
If I thought we were 100% sure we were torturing only people who had or who were going to attack the United States, I would probably willingly join in on the torture. Hell, I might even come up with a few new torture methods beyond anything yet described.
For instance, I might tie the terrorist to a seat and make him read every comment posted here on this website.
But since we don’t know who they are or what they are, I would like to note a couple things:
1.) Torture is not as effective as other methods of extrracting information.
2.) Many of the people we are hearing should be subjected to torture have turned out to be innocent.
3.) The vast majority of the people we have captured to date are low levels who have no information worth giving.
4.) Allowing for a policy of torture directly increases the chances that our soldiers and agents will be tortured.
5.) Torture is frowned upon by the vast majority of our allies.
6.) Apparently we already have tortured a number of people, to no real advantage.
7.) The public of the United States (you know, the folks that determine the government) seems to be largely opposed to torture.
Putting aside all those reasons, and I am sure a number I have missed, let me just point out one other reason we shouldn’t torture.
IT’S FUCKING WRONG.
Steve
John, why do you do nothing but spout right-wing talking points?
Steve
Crap. Wrong thread.
ppGaz
.
Bravo.
DougJ
If opposing torture is left, I don’t want to be right.
demimondian
Charlie from colorado talks about theocratic movements bent on destroying our way of life, and how Scooter Libby isn’t a member of any.
Hush, Carlie! We don’t want to let Pat Robertson know that — where will we get our shock troops without his movement?
Pb
Charlie, do you have any proof that Libby isn’t “A MEMBER OF A FASCIST THEOCRATIC MOVEMENT INTENT ON MASS MURDER AND THE COMPLETE DESTRUCTION OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION”? Because if he were, that’d be devastating. Given your unprompted defense here (are *you* a member?), and the national security concerns at issue, I’d argue that Libby is at the least a suspected “member of a fascist theocratic movement intent on mass murder and the complete destruction of western civilization”–we’ve got at least as much evidence of that as we do that another fellow US citizen–Jose Padilla–is a “suspected terrorist”. And really, that should be enough to lock him up now and throw away the key, if not tortureinterrogate him for a while as well.
Of course, he might not be a threat after all. But think of the consequences if he is! Why, if there’s even the slightest chance of that–and from his behavior it seems there is–it could mean the destruction of America! We can’t risk that, now can we…
George
My Letter to Mr. Barclay:
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Sir,
Despite the fact that you are not a US citizen, and therefore, have no credibility on how our country runs itself, allow me to offer some thinking points for you:
Mr. Libby is a US citizen, and before any punishment is administered for any “crime” he must be proved guilty in a court of law. Terrorists, not wearing uniforms, playing dead, killing non-combatant citizens are not afforded this luxury. They have violated the Geneva convention and are not to be treated by it’s regulations.
Mr. Libby is not accused of revealing anyone’s identity. Read the indictment. He is accused of lying to a federal investigator and a grand jury. These are the same crimes that Martha Stewart was convicted of. By your logic, she should be tortured as well – why did we miss that opportunity?
As to who revealed Ms. Plame’s identity? It was her husband, Mr. Wilson, back in 2002. Perhaps he should be tortured as well (also without the benefit of a trial).
Ms. Plame was a CIA employee, she was not “undercover.” If there were credible evidence that she were, and that Mr. Libby revealed that status, don’t you think that Mr. Fitzgerald would have indicted him for that? As it stands, Mr. Libby is stands under indictment for lying about something what was not a crime. Be fair minded with your opinion until the courts rule.
Until then, keep your opinion to yourself.
Mr. Barclay, get your facts straight before you begin to offer half-informed opinions.
Cordially,
George
ppGaz
DougJ? George?
You know the drill ….
Andrew J. Lazarus
Speaking semi-seroiusly on this topic, a good way of realizing that Israeli torture practices were about political intimidation of non-Jews and not intelligence is that no one has ever suggested that the assassin of Yitzah Rabin (yishmach shmo) has been tortured. Yet there were some moderately significant questions about the level of involvement of his possible co-conspirators. His complaints in prison revolved around lack of access to his brother (who was imprisoned as an accessory or co-conspirator, I forget exactly which) and lack of conjugal visitation rights with extremist women who admired him.
Justin Slotman
You hear that, Cole? YOU’RE ON PROBATION!
Lord this is my favorite blog right now.
Gold Star for Robot Boy
It is time for someone to put their foot down, and that foot is… some guy named Zincavage.
Perry Como
Gold Star for Robot Boy
This is going down on you permanent record, Cole! And I’m having a letter sent to your parents!
p.lukasiak
You hear that, Cole? YOU’RE ON PROBATION!
I’m thinking of starting a blog of my own, just so I can be put in Zinchavage’s “Grounded”, “No TV for YOU!” or “Sent to his room without supper!” folders….
DougJ
I wish I *had* written this. It has just the sort of subtle nonsensicalness that I strove for before I was outted. Why “despite the fact you are not U.s. citizen…allow me to offer some thinking points”? Would a someone who was not a U.S. citizen be inclined not to allow you to offer some “thinking points”?
It’s good, and I think it is probably fake.
demimondian
And, if that isn’t enough, I’m putting you on double super-secret probation! And what do you think about that?
Gold Star for Robot Boy
File Zincavage under: Threats, Empty.
JWeidner
Well, I’m one upping you. As of this moment, Balloon Juice is now on DOUBLE SECRET PROBATION!
David Zincavage
Reply to Mr. Cole:
Some might contend that accepting unproven allegations attributing reprehensible conduct and policies to one’s own government and armed forces, and jocularly proposing that an American who has devoted his entire career to public service ought to be tortured, are both wrong, too.
I would say that it is also very seriously wrong to raise these kinds of public allegations and arguments, which are intrinsically damaging to one’s country’s cause and which have demoralizing effect upon the will to prosecute the war.
This kind of behavior represents the calculated agitprop of the anti-American left, and serves as an unattractive form of Onanistic ego massage for our more-morally-sensitive-than-thou elites. The United States is not Nazi Germany. We do not have an ideology of racial or cultural superiority disseminated throughout our society suggesting that our troops should feel free to abuse even terrorist prisoners falling outside the scope and protections of the Geneva Convention and the laws and usages of war.
Personally, I don’t this this administration and the armed forces of the United States need the moral instructions and supervision of the general public, instructed by the nincompoops of the mainstream media and by the radical left.
As ever,
DZ
DougJ
Bad opening sentence. You need an editorl
John Cole
Mr. Zincavage-
I don’t know how you missed it, but Jonathon Swift is suggesting we eat babies.
Do they not teach satire in schools anymore?
Better yet, do you really think the people against torture (that would include me) would actuall suggest torturing Scooter Libby?
I need a drink.
MN Politics Guru
DZ,
Yesterday was Veterans’ Day. Our country was founded over 200 years ago by people who would rather die than live in an unrepresentative political subdivision of Great Britain. Those were the first veterans that we celebrate to this day.
Why do I mention this? Because I would rather die than live in a country that tortures people. If the decision was between a terrorist attack happening that could kill me and our country torturing random people in the vain hope that the attack would be averted, I would choose death. Why? Because, as John said, TORTURE IS FUCKING WRONG! I would rather die than live in a society that engages in such evil behaviour.
But even more, such a choice is a false dichotomy. We can stop terrorist attacks without resorting to torture. We can gain intelligence without resorting to torture. Hell, every bit of evidence out there shows that you get good intelligence from detainees by being nice to them, not attaching nipple clips and stackin them naked. Doing this is not feel-good namby-pamby kumbaya-singing flower-child lefist crap. It’s called doing the right thing that gets the best results TO PROTECT OUR COUNTRY!
You may not have a moral problem with living in a society that takes people out of their homes, hides them away without anybody knowing them, and tortures them. But I do.
DougJ
John, eating babies is wrong. But some might contend that accepting unproven allegations about Englishmen’s cannibalistic appetites and jocularly proposing that Irish babies, who have committed no crime, should be eaten, are both wrong, too.
Perry Como
Perhaps Mr. Zincavage has jumped the shark.
But pictures of being nice to terrorists aren’t nearly as interesting! Seriously, who would jump into a picture with a thumbs up if the terrorist in the background was sipping tea and eating crumpets?
Gold Star for Robot Boy
When I hit this phrase, my eyes rolled right out of the back of my head.
demimondian
DougJ — what kind of bigot are you? I mean, for heaven’s sake, Swift was observing that the excess population of Ireland could be converted into succulent roasts. Think about all the Irish adults who could have been saved by eating babies! And all the potatoes which would not be eaten by those babies, and would thus be available to adults.
And all that without a single abortion.
Why do you hate British absentee rule?
Vladi G
Won’t someone please think of the potatoes?!?!
Nikki
Oh, John! I had no idea just how much of a sadist you really are.
Steve
Mr. Zincavage suggests that this administration does not need the supervision of the general public. I agree that this is a fundamental flaw of our system of government, and I appreciate him and his like-minded brethren for seeking to remedy it.
jobiuspublius
Don’t they play Hide the Salami, or whatever it’s called, all day everyday at the WH? Isn’t that enough torture? By God those Canadians are savage sickos!
Steve S
Sadly Zincavage is typical of your Bush disciple.
Bush could come out tomorrow and say he eats babies, and Zincavage would argue that Bush didn’t really say he eats babies, he just likes the taste of babies, but he’s never really eaten one and so we’re all liars on the left.
jobiuspublius
Don’t fret, Rummy and Gen. Miller are on the job. They’ve turned some corners.
Charlie (Colorado)
Pick one:
(1) I’m tired of fucking morons who think not being able to repeat verbatim the lie you told to Tim Russert in order to not confirm something classified that Joe Wilson was babbling about in the green room at Fox constitutes a crime, much less treason.
(2) I’m even more tired of fucking morons who either think (a) that real torture isn’t already illegal, or (b) that stuff we do to our own people in the SERE course becomes EEEEEVIL if we do it to someone who’s trying to kill our people.
ppGaz
Yeah, well, get some rest, you sound like a lunatic.
J. Michael Neal
Then again, neither were just all about all of the people WE RELEASED from Gitmo. At least, they weren’t before we tortured, then released them.
For instance, read the series that hilzoy and Katherine are doing at ObWi:
http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2005/11/about_them.html
http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2005/11/medical_malprac.html
http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2005/11/medical_malprac_1.html
http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2005/11/medical_malprac_2.html
ppGaz
Tell me about it! I thought you were selling out to the right ;-)
Sine.Qua.Non
Ditto John: Torture is just Wrong.
Frank
I have a hard time thinking about this stuff I think so I may be wrong here, but I’ve been trying to imagine how this must look to the other 6 billion people on this planet who aren’t americans. Basicaly we are saying to the rest of the world that we have the right to kidnap anyone, from anywhere in the world, hold them in secret for years without any legal recourse, without any of their family or loved ones knowing where they are, and have the CIA torture them, and if they die the CIA officer may be promoted while an internal investigation takes place, which as the record shows is unlikely to apply any punishment, but if it does find fault will not seriously punish anyone.
Tens of thousands of people go missing every year worldwide. Since many of the people we have held have had nothing to do with terrorism, that means that any time anyone in the world goes missing even if the family knows for sure that their loved one had nothing to do with terrorism, can’t be sure that their father or mother or son or daughter or brother or sister or wife or husband isn’t being tortured to death in some secret American prison somewhere.
Boy if we thought the rest of the world hated us before…
And we reelected this guy?
Kimmitt
Nah, Padilla rendered that passe.
Steve S
To give you a better idea what it means to be a true Bush disciple. This quote from Assrocket at powerline…
Fascinating stuff. It’s a lot like those old interviews with Susan Atkins or Leslie Van Houten. They look normal, they sound normal, but they’re is just nothing behind the eyes.
Steve S
To expand on Kimmitt – Torture isn’t a punishment. It’s simply a way of getting the guy to talk. So I think it’s perfectly reasonable to use it against US citizens whether or not they’ve actually been convicted of a crime.
Right?
Steve S
Expanding on Frank’s point. The sad thing is, much of this rap we are now doing is what the British were doing to use in the 18th century, which in large part promoted the cause of the Revolution.
When we started as a nation, our top concern was for human rights. The definition of human rights has improved over the years, certainly, but that was what the founding fathers envisioned. It was quite a radical turn, the whole Bill of Rights and everything.
Now we have a case where a subclass of individuals claim to uphold the Constitution, but in fact piss on it daily.
I don’t Charlie. If you encountered a group who had no concern for American Values and pissed on our Constitution daily, wouldn’t you feel the desire to call them EVIL?
If America would simply live up to it’s own image of itself when dealing with foreign nations, we wouldn’t be in the fucking mess we are today.
Pb
Frank,
What are you, some kind of crazy leftist wacko who wants us all to just hold hands together and sing kumbaya?
Seriously though, I completely agree with you–I just wish more of my fellow Americans would do the same thing (stop for a moment to think about the other 6 billion people who aren’t Americans, and what they might think of us collectively, given the actions of our government). Not that we shouldn’t be doing the right thing by everyone out of the goodness of our little American hearts anyhow, but it’s probably good to think about the big picture every once in a while too.
Angus Stout
Charlie from Colorado–
You sure?
Otto Man
You believe Joe Wilson would casually out his CIA wife to total strangers in the green room at Fox News … and we’re the fucking morons?
Riiiiiiggghhhtt.
Steve S
HILLARY CLINTON KILLED VINCE FOSTER!
It’s true. I read it on World Net Daily!
Kirk Spencer
SERE course… Three points.
First, I volunteered.
Second, I knew there was a definite scheduled end – hard as it was to remember.
Third, while we never had the pleasure of being beat with baseball bats while wrapped in a sleeping bag, nor do I recall anyone telling of being piled in a naked human pyramid, I do recall that the instructors told us that what we’d experienced WAS torture.
We went through torture lite to better prepare us to resist and cope with more severe torture in the event we encountered it. The instructors regularly condemned it in those classes – it was stuff done by evil nations, not us. We only prepared for it because the folk on the other side used it.
So pardon me while I think your statement using SERE as a defense of using torture is, at best, a steaming pile of manure.
CalDevil
Congratulations to the Star for tapping into the philosophical core of the modern liberal:
“Sleep deprivation, relatively rough treatment and the like should never be used against dangerous terrorists, no matter what level of threat they present against American citizens. However, full on sadistic torture should be used without fail against our political opponents just for fun – because, well, just because we’re superior beings and know better than you.”
Shygetz
And CalDevil just marked the death of California education.
Krista
I honestly cannot believe that there are so many people who have not recognized the Star piece as satire! Are they really that obtuse? Or are they just so desperate to grab onto an argument that they ignore the winking and nudging of everybody else who’s reading it?