However obsessed Ann Althouse may be with OSM (and she may just be trying to offer constructive criticism, and I am just miising her message because of her tone), she ain’t got nothing when it comes to my obsession- CINDY SHEEHAN! With that, I offer you your daily dose of Cindy Sheehan:
Iraq War protester Cindy Sheehan and 26 other peace activists were found guilty Thursday of protesting without a permit near the White House.
They were each ordered to pay $75 in fines and court costs, but Sheehan’s lawyer said he plans to appeal the verdict.
“We weren’t demonstrating,” Sheehan told reporters after the trial.
Snort.
Sheehan said she plans to take her peace activist message to Europe next month with stops in London and Madrid.
Might I also suggest Caracas, Havana, Damascus, Pynongyang, and then a month-long ‘peace’ rally in Fallujah?
Steve S
You know. I’ve never figured out how you can be guilty of protesting without a permit.
If they were assembling peacably… What’s the crime?
John Cole
Beats me. I just found the “We weren’t demonstrating” bit funny.
Steven Donegal
I’m sure she and John Murtha will be campaigning for Byrd next year. Think of all the fun you’ll have then.
rilkefan
When are we getting John‘s take on Murtha’s speech?
John Cole
What- it is essentially the same speech he gave last year. Just put a new timestamp on it.
The Disenfranchised Voter
And so the ridiculous posting ensues just as I predicted.
I really wish she would have listened to my pleas to go away.
rilkefan
Huh – somebody at The Corner (via Sully) thinks it’s a sea change. Firedog Lake agrees it’s significant. But I don’t follow Murtha (who I mentioned as originally West Virginian).
jaime
Much to your chagrin Cole, when the dust settles, Cindy Sheehan’s protest in Crawford may be looked to as the tipping point in Bush 43’s failed presidency.
ppGaz
Whereas today’s Sheehan ballbust, here, is all new material. Fresh, thought-provoking, downright groundbreaking.
I get it.
John Cole
Schiavo was the end for me.
docG
I don’t blame you for being obsessed with Cindy Sheehan. That null and void look in her eyes is kinda hot!
ppGaz
??
I’m lost. Why provide cover for Spud on Iraq, then? You can defend your own position on the thing without defending him. I don’t get it. Seriously.
Davebo
rilkefan
Funny you should link to Rod Dreher. He’s sort of the Anti John Cole.
Hates the war, loves the evangelicals.
Although I’ve never understood why anyone would care what a former movie critic thinks about politics.
ppGaz
Well, we live in a country held hostage by a failed oilman and baseball “investor” who is a “recovered” alcoholic and general ne’er do well son of a rich family.
Former movie critic looks pretty good, actually.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Let’s be honest. The chances of that are so remote. Look, I’m rather anti-Bush myself but the influence her protest had is vastly overexaggerated. I would be surprised if it even makes it as a footnote in the history books.
Geek, Esq.
Is she going to return to “Occupied New Orleans?” And is she taking Joe Wilson with her?
ppGaz
I agree completely. I am not sure there was a single tipping point, but the nexus of Social Security and the phony “town hall meetings,” Schiavo, the full realization of the extent to which these guys screwed the pooch on Iraq intelligence, buyer’s remorse upon realizing that we’re stuck with this moron for four more years …. kinda took the lustre off. Then came Katrina, and Drownie, and the obvious complete and utter cluelessness.
But really, other than that, he’s had a great year.
rilkefan
“tipping point”
Preemptive “butterfly in Ecuador flaps its wings and a tornado hits a trailer home in Kansas” foldrerol.
ppGaz
We’re seeking closure.
Mike S
They weren’t protesting. They were just a bunch of like minded people who happened to find themselves in the same place at the same time.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Hahahahah. That’s “Heck of a job” Drownie to you, ppgaz.
Zifnab
I always thought Cindy Sheehan was funny because of the way people tried to totally gut her. I mean seriously, by the time Limbaugh, Drudge, and FOX News were done with her, she’s was a clinically insane, anti-semetic, terrorist sympathizer spawn of satan.
But it gets better, cause she’s planning a return to the Bush Ranch for the holidays. Just in time for more peaceful assembly rules and regulations.
Ah. Freedom and Democracy at work.
jaime
Look, I’ve spoken with Cindy Sheehan. I gather none of you have. She seemed like a real genuine person not the Tex Avery cartoon John Cole makes her out to be. She may lack the eloquence of other in the anti-war movement, but her energy and pain is quite real.
To most Americans that don’t follow political nuance, I believe, don’t think in terms of nexus and buyer’s remorse, and Social Security specifics. They remember that instead of the missing White Girl in Aruba on the news, they saw a woman stand up to the president on his vacation. This wasn’t some granola eating Birkenstocked, long haired smelly hippie. It was a mom, like they see at soccer practice or at the grocery store.
It eventually became diluted when the pundits and opportunists made this about a crazy lady who hates Bush/Freedom/Jesus vs. the savior and voice of the anti-war left. The news vaccuum was filled with Iraq and questions of competence and cost of the war before it became what it always becomes, an attack on the messenger.
We spent a whole summer questioning Iraq and Bush’s competence…and then Katrina hits.
James C.
jaime says: “Look, I’ve spoken with Cindy Sheehan. I gather none of you have. She seemed like a real genuine person not the Tex Avery cartoon John Cole makes her out to be….”
Yes, I’ve seen Sheehan speak on numerous occasions on TV…and she’s no real genuine person. She’s an overwrought, publicity-seeking whack job!
The Disenfranchised Voter
Don’t mind James C. He is an Unamerican bastard. He actually said the Iraq War would still be justified even if it was justified through lying to the public.
Specifically even if it was proven that the Bush Administration lied in order to gain public support for the war, it would still be a just war.
ppGaz
I would say she’s a hero.
jaime
Ah…So JamesC suffers from abused spouse syndrome.
Mike S
I hope you never go through the loss of a child. But if you do keep that asshole comment in mind. Being as you seem to lack a soul I doubt it will haunt you but it is inexcusable none the less.
Anderson
You know you want her, Cole. Fess up.
Paddy O'Shea
Go check Bush’s polling numbers before and after Sheehan’s protest in Crawford. Cindy was the turning point, and it has been all downhill for Shrubbie ever since.
It has been my theory for a while now that the reason most Repuggies vehemently hate Cindy Sheehan is because she, a powerless unmoneyed woman without any real political clout with the ruling elite, almost single-handedly kicked the ass of the most powerful (whatever Bush is) in the world.
And you know that commoners are never supposed to do that sort of thing to someone of Bush’s pedigree. The mums are aghast!
ppGaz
Kicked the ass is probably a little over the top. But certainly, she showed him up. She embarrassed him.
The idea that a citizen who takes it upon herself to go out on the roadside and stand up to the government needs to be smooth, or articulate, or telegenic … is just disgusting. Any persons who puts themselves in the line of fire, subjects themselves to the vile attacks and characterizations that the dirt on the right will throw, just stand out there and say, Here I Am, those people are heroes. Those people are expressing the whole idea of being an American.
And compared to that –thing– that calls himself a president, this odd ditzy woman looks like what she is for taking that risk … a hero. All she has to do is stand there. That makes her a hero as far as I’m concerned.
Mark Wilson
Even if FDR lied, our war against Japan and Germany was a just war.
BIRDZILLA
Why dont they go visit PARIS its a real great place for her and her peace pests besure to drive down some french street and see the mess and visit the junk yards and get a look at the burned out cars and just maybe a mob of islamic fanatics with set fire to the peace pest bus
srv
Because you want her to spread truth to those places, or more lies like George?
srv
Same crime as always. Some are more free than others.
nyrev
Really? If Japan had not been allied with Germany and had nothing to do with bombing Pearl Harbor, dropping atomic bombs on Japanese cities would still have been justified? Any specific reason, or do you just not like anime?
The Disenfranchised Voter
The immediate threat posed by Saddam was the main justification for this war. If it was proven that the Bush Administration lied about this, then the war would be unjust.
Now to FDR…If FDR’s lie was the main justification for war–like Bush’s was–then his war would also be unjustified.
For example…If it was really Australia who attacked Pearl Harbor but FDR lied and said it was Japan and took us to war with Japan it would be unjustified. Y
You can bet your ass that would be an unjust war.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Ahh this also needs to be said…
Comparing the Iraq War with WWII is so absolutely fucking ridiculous. All you do is look like a fucking delusional moron when you juxtapose the two. Enough already.
Laurence Simon
Add Riyadh to her itinerary.
Mark Wilson
Japan’s brutal occupation of China, Korea, etc., military capabilities, expansionist policies, threats throughout the Pacific, etc. would have justified military action against Japan even without the attack on Pearl Harbor. Have you not heard anything of the history of Japanese agression in Asia from the beginning of the 20th century up to 1940? If Germany had bombed our Atlantic fleet in port we certainly should have, and likely would have, gone to war against Japan as well. As it happened, Japan was the first to attack and we went to war against both. The Australia argument is completely ahistorical and just silly. WW II taught the U.S. that it cannot live in isolation. It would be terrible if that lesson were lost.
Mark Wilson
The comparison illustrates that whether a President lied about the reasons for going to war are irrelevant to whether the war is a just war.
Mark Wilson
While I don’t believe that Bush lied, it seems to me that one could believe that was so and still support our war-fighting efforts in Iraq, the goal of which is to create a stable democracy in place of a brutal dictatorship with demonstrated expansionist aims. So even assuming Bush lied, why don’t many of those on the left support our fighting in Iraq against the likes of Zarqawi?
The Disenfranchised Voter
Nice try…
The American public only supported entering WWII after Pearl Harbor was attacked. Pearl Harbor was the justification for that war. An attack on the US is basically the only thing that would have push the isolationist population to agree to war.
Now, you leave out the most important part. The issue isn’t could WWII still be justified if Pearl Harbor wasn’t attacked. The issue would be was the US’s involvement in WWII justified even though FDR lied about Pearl Harbor being attacked?
The answer is obviously no. The country was almost completely isolationist. FDR would not have went to war against the vast majority of the public. If FDR then LIED about the attack on Pearl Harbor in order to gain support, the war would be unjustified.
You are wrong. It is as simple as that.
ppGaz
The war is not “just”. It is not “just” because the only valid reason for having the war would be that it was the only possible way to avoid an imminent attack on this country. That was not the case, not by any stretch of the imagination.
Even if it results in some sort of “good” outcome, such as a stable and friendly — or at least tolerant — Iraq government, it would not be “just.” There is not a parent in this country who raised a child in order to sacrifice that child for the glory of Iraq. There is not a politician in this country who would have had the gall to ask an American parent to give up his child for the glory of Iraq. What happens to Iraq, good or bad, cannot make this clusterfuck into a “just” war.
As for any fantasy about the future of the Middle East that falls from this war …. again, empty. Absolutely no plan was made, nor implemented, with respect to such an outcome, nor prediction made, nor even possible given the history of the region. Any such idea could only have been labeled “magical thinking” in 2002, and I don’t see that the idea has any more merit today than it did then. The outcome for Iraq in particular and for the Middle East in general is completely out of our control today, and was three years ago when this war was still avoidable.
I don’t know what you were thinking when you decided to construct an inapt comparison between WWII and this giant pile of shit, but whatever it was, the dog won’t hunt. It’s nonsense.
nyrev
For starters, a war isn’t a beauty pageant and “to bring world peace” isn’t a good reason to start one. It doesn’t work that well, for one thing.
Secondly, if the most up-to-date goal of the Iraq War is to create a stable democracy in the Middle East, then that’s a lovely, humanitarian goal. However, war is usually the last resort in these cases, not the first.
Thirdly, no matter what reason you give to start a war, starting one with no idea how to finish it is not noble, it’s stupid.
Finally, if you don’t think that Americans would have hung FDR from the rafters had they found out that he was making up horror stories to get them to go to war, you greatly underestimate The Greatest Generation.
And I do wish that Republicans would stop flip-flopping over whether they’re for or against deploying the troops for this type of strictly humanitarian mission. It’s so hard to keep up.
roscoe k
Right. The war in Iraq must always be compared to Vietnam. We lost in Vietnam and we must lose in Iraq. Otherwise, Rush Limbaugh might gloat!
Mark Wilson
The position of some seems to be that a war is just if the U.S. is attacked or if the enemy is Nazi Germany and unjust under every other circumstance. Fighting Japan and Germany would have been justified even if FDR lied through his teeth about every rationale for the war. It would have been justified even if FDR knew Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked and let it happen in order to break the U.S. out of its isolationism. The U.S. has the power to defend another country from attack and to defend the people of a country from their dictator — choosing not to do so is a moral choice to let others die and suffer although we could prevent it, at some cost. Not acting has consequences just as much as acting and all consequences should be weighed in making such decisions. And if you don’t like the WW II analogy, why not consider Rwanda? A war in Rwanda would have been just even if Bill Clinton lied to persuade people that it should be fought.
Geoduck
Perhaps just trivia, but it’s interesting to note that the only time Hitler ever went to the trouble of officially declaring war on someone was against the United States, after Pearl Harbor. Some have speculated that FDR might have had a somewhat harder time pushing for American involvement in the European theater if the German leader hadn’t done so.
ppGaz
If the purpose of the war in Iraq was to “defend the people of a country from their dictator” then that choice should have been offered to the American people, along with a responsible estimate of the cost in money and lives, and a plan for the adventure.
That wasn’t the basis for the war, that choice was not offered, there was no such plan and no such responsible estimate of the cost.
The opportunity for that debate ended in 2002. You can have it with yourself, now, but it’s academic, it’s moot, it’s dishonest, and it’s irrelevant. The American people have pretty much weighed that question and their answer now is: No.
You are three years too late, and you don’t have a government honest enough to have made that case when it was appropriate to make it.
srv
Mark, perhaps you should start with Just War Theory. If you don’t like that, then embellish. It does not include lying to , misleading or obfuscating your population.
Just War Theory
Iraq does not meet the criteria, and was not pre-emptive. It was preventive, which is not acceptable under Just War Theory.
War against Japan could have been pre-emptive, had we known about the attack (FDR knew it was possible, as did the Navy, but it wasn’t FDRs job to explain it to the commanders in the Pacific). War against the Nazi’s could have always been acceptable under Just War, it was just that the Congress and public were not ready to go to war. FDR was content to wait.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Too bad you’re projecting. I didn’t compare it to Vietnam. I said to compare it to WWII is ridiculous and it most certainly fucking is.
You know what the Iraq war and WWII have in common? They were wars. That’s about it, jackass.
jaime
Last year Murtha did not openly advocate withdrawal of troops. He just said we needed to fight it better. Today he said we have to get our troops out of there because there ain’t no winning in Iraq.
Your strategy is to ignore it. At least your not partaking in the Murtha swiftboating the mongrel freepers are bandying about.
Pb
It seems to me that Thanksgiving would be the perfect time for Bush to invite Cindy in to his ranch and have a pleasant little chat around the dinner table. Somehow, I don’t see that happening.
Anyhow, give ’em hell, Cindy; this is America, you have a right to be heard. I think the last straw for me on this issue was when the theocrat nutjobs on the far right started attacking her faith, and lying about her convictions. Pathetic weasels, the lot of them. Cindy is closer to the values of Jesus Christ than they will ever be.
Anyhow, John, seeing as you have this Cindy Sheehan obsession, maybe next time you can write up a nice long rant about the First Amendment and separation of church and state, and how even Cindy Sheehan should enjoy these protections, despite what some fascist theocrats may believe.
The Disenfranchised Voter
You’re god damn right that is my position. I don’t believe in the Neo-Con “pre-emptive” doctrine. It is a recipe for disater.
No, it wouldn’t have. Listen (read) carefully. If FDR felt the only way to justify his war to the American public was through LIES, then obviously the war’s justification was based on falsehoods and therefore the war wasn’t justified. Jesus christ. Is this really that hard to understand?
WHAT?!! WHAT!!!!!!!!!!! Do you honestly believe that?!
If so, you really scare the living shit out of me Mark.
Do you not realize that the position you are advocating is analogous to someone saying: “The Afghanistan war would still be justified even if Bush knew the World Trade Center was going to be attacked on 9/11 and let it happen in order to break the US out of its isolationism on the war on terror”? Are you fucking serious?!
Oh so because we have the power to do so we should use/abuse that power? Why not just come out and say you want to control the world…
At some cost? You mean at the cost of other people’s lives that you don’t need to worry about. Our soldiers job is to defend America, not fucking police the world. They didn’t sign up to defend the world from evil, you asshat.
Oh so it’s either all out war or no action. Whatever happened to fucking diplomacy?
You know, a little bit of carrot and a little bit of stick? Sadly, all you fuckers want is to beat the shit out of other nation with a stick.
No, it most certainly wouldn’t have, and you can beat your ass you and your Republican cohorts would be signing a different tune if Clinton had lied. His ass would have been impeached faster than if he had raped Monica.
I really can’t say if that war was actually justified to begin with.
The Disenfranchised Voter
*bet
*singing
Gt
The Scarecrow says..
Wow and how many people fell for that sttraw man argument.. sheesh. Presumption of an unproavblem/unproven and all that.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Gt:
are you saying it is impossible to determine if someone lied?
If so, you’re a fucking idiot.
Andrei
Here’s Murha’s speech from yesterday. Here’s a few speeches from last year.
They are not the same speeches. In the speeches from last year, if you take the congressman for his word (which I see no reason not give him), you have someone who is complaining about the lack of finding a bipartisan way to win the war along with also finding a viable strategy to win it. He may be upset and annoyed, but he essentially still wants to win the war and ultimately supports it, even though he gets criticism for it from his constituents.
In the speech yesterday, he has basically given up. I would even say he’s given up due to the basically the exact kind of attitude that you (and fellow conservatives like yourself) display in your position on Iraq. That you are right and things are going well and we’ll win… at some unknown point in the future… and that everyone else is an asshat.
Meanwhile, American soldiers and Iraqi citizens die and/or get irreparably injured day to day, month to month, year to year with no endgame in sight. Simultaneously, support for the “bold experiment,” as Dr. Rice finally put it in truthful terms some two years after the fact, will continue to lose broad support from the couch jockeys across America sitting comfortably at home watching the Iraqi war recaps like ESPN SportsCenter on a Sunday night.
Stormy70
Cindy – deranged lefty. She’s having too much fun to quit now.
I don’t take anti-semitic people seriously.
kl
There was dust?
We’ve determined that, Pee-Pee.
Yeah, her own words had nothing to do with it.
ROVE!!!
Pb
rilkefan,
Don’t worry–The Corner got their new talking points in the mail, now they’re on the same page as John Cole.
Too bad it isn’t true. It wasn’t then, and oddly enough, it still isn’t, as five seconds with Google will reveal to any non-shill with an internet connection.
Pb
Stormy70,
What a coincidence–I don’t take clueless misinformed partisans OR people who advocate torturing foreigners for no good reason seriously.
Stormy70
So Cindy’s statements that cross the line about Israel are ok because she hates the President as much as you? She is a spectacular hack, who’s glee at all the press attention makes her look like a fraud, just like her pal Massey.
Poor Pb, those terrorists really just need a hug, don’t they? Then they would stop their non-stop killing spree, for sure.
John S.
What
terroristsenemy combatants? I thought they were all stuck to the ‘fly-paper’ in Iraq. And the ones that aren’t are holed up in Gitmo or some clandestine prison in Eastern Europe.What killing spree? I mean, we haven’t seen any further attacks on American soil, right? So that must mean we got them all, because we’ve killed al-Quaeda’s #2 guy about three dozen times so far.
Now all we have to do is nuke the Middle-East, and the
threatgathering storm of terrorism will be removed forever!God
bless Americacurse everyone else.Mark Wilson
I find it interesting that some of the people who disagree with what I’ve said assume that I’m a Republican. As to those finding moral problems with my views, I would be comfortable lying in order to avert the hacking to death with machetes of 800,000 people over a period of 100 days in Rwanda in 1994.
James C.
This is a somewhat interesting site.
It appears that the numerous and repetitive comments, often by the same small number of useless morons, are made here because other lunatic homes, such as Eschaton and DU, have hundreds of posters; it’s probable that most of the posters here are the result of some kind of vanity that leads them to want their brain farts read by others.
Nikki
So you will be encouraging your congressmen to get busy in Africa any day now, right?
rs
Stormy70,I’m unaware of anti-semitic sentiments expressed by Cindy Sheehan.Can you provide examples?And how did she “cross the line” regarding Israel?
Lines
And I give you James C. Random crap flinger and useless blog poster that doesn’t understand dissenting opinion, nor how to debate or discuss issues and theories. Instead, let the shit fly!
James, there are places for you to hang out, like LGF. I’m sure your sheets will be out of the dryer soon.
Lines
Oh, and Stormy, Cindy came back and claims she didn’t write that letter. Do you have proof that she did?
Or shall we compare you to Dan Rather and/or Mary Mapes today?
Paddy O'Shea
So much bitterness on the right these days. The feckless preppy has gone to pot, and all that is left for the Rush Limbaugh Fighting Internet Brigades to do is to share their pain with people who really don’t care.
Jimmy C., here’s your hankie.
roscoe k
You said to compare Iraq to WWII is ridiculous. I agreed with you (ie “Right.”). You shouldn’t compare Iraq to WWII. Instead you must always compare Iraq to Vietnam.
(I’m sure the sarcasm will go over your pinhead a second time.)
Pb
Stormy70,
Yes. Welcome to America. Also, name one. Do you have a videotape? A reputable news source? Or just another nutty smear factory?
Stormy, you don’t know a damn thing about me or Cindy–a fact that you make abundantly clear every time you open your worthless yap. Don’t make me tell you again.
Fuck you. Go waterboard yourself.
ppGaz
Don’t bother arguing with Stormy. Her name reflects the weather inside her head.
The thing about heroes is that there is only one qualification. You don’t have to be smart, or good looking, or politically correct, or articulate, or smooth, or even particularly brave most of the time.
What makes someone a hero is that she stands up in a shitstorm. That’s it. The act of standing up, that’s what makes a hero.
When you look at pictures of the dead on Omaha Beach, you don’t see people who were smart, or smooth talkers, or telegenic. You see people who, in the face of a shitstorm of death, stood up. That’s all they did, and that’s why we call them heroes.
You people can shit on Cindy Sheehan all you want, make fun of her, call her names. But she stood up, and as far as I am concerned, that makes her a hero.
Yes, John, I am talking directly to you. Sheehan is a hero. I don’t know what the word is for you in this situation.
Pb
ppGaz,
I agree 100%–but I still can’t stand misinformed hateful bigoted hypocrites. However, the fact that Stormy is often self-parodying does make it more worthwhile.
ppGaz
Well, at least she’s good natured. Nothing worse than a bad-natured bigot.
Steve S
So Hitler’s statement that all Jews must be killed is ok, because he hated Stalin as much as you?
Give me a fucking break, you tool.
It’s shit like this that makes you look like an idiot. When you can’t argue on point, but resort to lame baseless strawman attacks.
kl
Poor Christopher Reeve…
The Disenfranchised Voter
And in stormy’s little deranged world any comment criticising our BLIND relationship with Israel is anti-semetic.
Get a new line Stormy.
Mark:
Was I wrong in my assumption? If so, I’d be interested to know how you would describe your political views. Are the Republicans too socially liberal for your tastes? Heh.
Asshat aka James C.:
You mean like you? So where do you come from James C., Free Republic or Little Green Footballs?
By the delusional statements you’ve been throwing out I’d say it’s both.
ppGaz
groan ………
rs
Okay,I think I found Stormy70’s money quote.Cindy Sheehan(allegedly)writes “Yes,he was killed for lies and for a PNAC neo-con agenda to benefit Israel.My son joined the Army to protect America,not Israel.” I understand there is some controversy about whether these are actually Ms.Sheehan’s words,but even if they are,how are they 1)anti-semitic and 2)across “the line” regarding Israel?
ppGaz
Because the whole subject of Israel is sacrosanct, for one thing. Because Sheehan mistook a common thread among neocons and mistook it for something else.
—/
While I haven’t sat down and psychoanalyzed the neocons (although, in the name of Dog, somebody sure as hell should) it would appear to me that the common thread among them is not their religious backgrounds, but their sociopathic gigantic egos. The idea that an all-powerful force should stomp its way across the world and impose its will on people it never met on pain of death, just because it can ….
Oh, wait …..
ppGaz
Oh, I forgot to add … is that a faith thing, or a “For us or against us” thing?
It’s hard to tell.
You know, there’s a reason why we call some of these shitheads the American Taliban. Because honestly, dahling, who the fuck else do they remind you of?
Pb
rs,
Don’t even waste your time. The burden is on Stormy to argue her case, and she is incapable of doing so. However, I’d love to see her try to prove that (a) Cindy actually did say that, and (b) it’s demonstrably false. Never gonna happen.
kl
Yes, but it’s not the reason you’re thinking of.