More suicide bombings:
Three separate bomb attacks in Iraq killed more than 64 people Friday morning, among them 58 Iraqis killed when attackers strapped with explosives detonated inside two Shiite mosques north of Baghdad.
In Baghdad, suicide attackers exploded two vehicles loaded with bombs outside a Baghdad hotel early Friday, collapsing at least one neighboring apartment block and sheering off walls around sleeping families.
The back-to-back Baghdad blasts killed at least six and wounded more than 41, police said.
Which, most likely, is not unrelated to this:
Leading Sunni politicians in Iraq have demanded an international inquiry following the discovery that 173 people had been tortured and held captive in an interior ministry bunker.
They claim such abuse was regularly carried out by paramilitaries connected to the government and accuse US forces of giving it “the green light”.
The call for an independent inquiry was backed by the United Nations’ special investigator on torture. But the Badr Organisation, a Shia militia suspected of responsibility for the mistreatment of the mainly Sunni prisoners, has denied any involvement.
I hope I am wrong.
Lines
I’ve been trying to follow their claims of US involvement in the torture of the Sunni prisoners held in underground bunkers, and I just don’t see the proof. I hope I’m right, because it sounds like some of the torture in those underground bunkers were WAY above the level of Abu Ghraib/Afghanistan and didn’t seem to involve interogation at all, just mindless torture of a rival tribe.
I hope thats wrong, too, because if they are right the civil war has begun and its just happening outside of our sphere(s) of influence in Iraq.
Paddy O'Shea
According to Rasmussen 45% of Americans support having Bush set “a deadline for removing all U.S. military forces from Iraq.” 41% oppose and 14% ain’t saying.
51% of Americans say Bush is doing a poor job in Iraq, with only 42% approving of the job he is doing overall. 58% disapprove of the job Bushlet is doing as President.
Considering that this poll was taken after the tidal wave of hysterical bombast from the Torture Wing of the GOP either indicates the opposition to this useless war is fairly strong, or that nobody really gives a damn about the opinions of Dick Cheney and Georgie Bush anymore.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/2005/Perspectives%20on%20Iraq%20Nov%2018.htm
Shygetz
Yeah, there is no way this is good for anyone but the insurgents. Either the US is involved (which I doubt), in which case we just wiped our ass with our tattered reputation, or we weren’t involved, in which case it is either the spark to start a civil war, or a heinous manuever in an ongoing civil war (depending on your view, I guess). I need a drink…
Jorge
I know it can be unpopular to say this, but if a region does not have an internal Democratic instinct and the intellectuals to sell democratic ideals, I don’t see how it can become a unified Republic. Heck, our own country which was founded by some of the greatest thinkers in the history of the movement for democracy underwent a 4 year civil war that resulted in the death of over 600,000 soldiers.
Before losing power to militarism and fascism in the 1930s, Japan and Germany had interior democratic movements that were very strong in the 1920s. There was the seed for unified republics and democracy. Where is that history in the Shiite and Sunni backgrounds? Where are the internal intellectuals proposing models for how democracy can work in Iraq?
Every democratic process has problems. Often very violent problems. But if there is a promise for something better that the majority of the population can intrinsically understand and aspire to then that violence can be overcome. I’m not sure we have that in Iraq.
And to clarify, I’m not talking about polls were it shows Iraqis “want democracy.” Those polls are fairly useless if there is no consensus as to what democracy is and no thinkers providing a model of principles that form the basis for that democracy.
Nikki
Or perhaps the question should be: are there any internal intellectuals who want a democracy to work in Iraq? I’ve only heard talk of a democracy coming from the U.S. and its puppets in Iraq.
metalgrid
Jorge,
I’d venture that Hayek’s theory of growing policy from the bottom up applies to democracy a lot more than so called conservatives who have betrayed Goldwater seem to think. I’ve always viewed the application of democracy from the top down a futile venture when the blood and body count of the population hasn’t achieved the critical mass neccessary to support it.
Then again, a civil war in Iraq may be the catalyst needed to grow a bottom up democracy movement in the middle east, but I wouldn’t hold my breath for it.
CaseyL
One of the essential characteristics of a “democracy” is the ability to work constructively with people who don’t agree with you. That means negotiating, compromising, and not assuming the other side is evil just because they don’t believe in the same things the same way you do. it means balancing the interests of your constituents with the interests of other regions’ constituents, prioritizing what you will and won’t give an inch on, and being able to persuade others through sweet reason… or at least a mutual handwash.
Now, we’re lousy at this here in the US, where we’ve had a couple centuries’ experience at doing it.
Iraq has no cultural or institutional experience at this sort of thing At. All. In fact, most if not all of its political experience has been in factionalism, playing off factions against one another, and imprisoning/torturing/ murdering other factions altogether.
Not exactly the best of all possible apprenticeships for figuring out how “democracy” works.
Andrew Reeves
Hmm… I think that these bombings that hit were part of the normal ebb and flow of what goes on in Baghdad, its exurbs, and Al Anbar. Bombs get stopped, but then every week or two, one of the big ones gets through.
I think that it’s more that than any sudden reaction to what the Iraqi government was doing.
Jcricket
Basically, either we’re doing the torturing, or the people we put in place are doing the torturing. Perhaps we should invade to remove those torturing terrorist supporters and free… never mind. Cheney, Exec. VP of Torture.
So, let’s review. We torture people, hold them for years in secret prisons and then set lots of them free. We even torture some of them in the same prisons that evil, evil dictator used to torture some of the same people we’re now “re-torturing”. Let’s examine the likely results:
* This likely causes the “torturees” to go back home and be angry at us
* Their families and communities are also angry at us
* Their religious leaders will speak out against our treatment of these people from their pulpits.
* Media in the home countries of these people will write angry editorials denouncing us, making even more people mad.
* Politicians in the home countries will vote against supporting us
(Don’t forget we also support regimes (for some ‘pragmatic reasons’) who torture people on their own in Egypt, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia).
When all the people in these countries (let’s call them the undecided masses) wonder, “should I support America at a personal level?” They will think about how we torture people and lie about it. How we made Iraq less safe for the Iraqis. How we allowed terrorists to increase and spread from Iraq to Jordan.
Someone please tell me how exactly will this help us win the WOT? How will we get international cooperation for our democracy building efforts? Will anyone want to use their local police to help us round up suspects if we might detain them indefinitely and torture them? Will they share intelligence with us? How do we prevent the next 9/11 if the vast “undecided masses” are ambivalent towards their terrorist neighbors?
The undecided masses will not listen to or cooperate with a US government that promotes some hyper-technical interpretation of torture/detention laws and dismisses anything bad as the result of only a few “bad apples”. Worst case, we’re looking at a world with people saying, “maybe Iran should have Nuclear weapons to protect itself from the US.”*
We’re making the world more hostile to the US. Will this result in more terror against us? Maybe. It certainly doesn’t help us prevent terror.
* Note: Yes, this is bad bad bad. We need international cooperation to stop this, unless we plan on starting another war, on our own this time, in the near future
Mr Furious
I heard the reports from the BBC on the attacks this morning, and they were pretty much like all these reports…I have a genuine question about this that is going to sound really smart-ass-y.
What is so fucking “sophisticated” about any of these attacks? Ever? Whether it’s three bombers with synchronized watches, or, in today’s case, two vans, one to blow up the barrier and one to follow it up? These sound like common sense tactics to me, not the “hallmark of al queda” or “requiring an organization”…
Reporters speculatively linking this hotel attack to the last one becuase they both used the two-vehicle technique?!? WTF?
Steve S
We can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
Success is right around the corner.
These are dead-enders, nothing to worry about.
les
I note that our ambassador has condemned the secret prison and the torture, and told the Iraqi government that the U.S. will not tolerate abuse and mistreatment of prisoners. Speaking from the moral high ground as we currently are, I’m sure the statement will be taken seriously.
John S.
I don’t think we hear enough of the positive news about Shia militiamen suspected of responsibility for the mistreatment of Sunni prisoners.
Lines
John S.
Don’t forget the new schools the Shia militiamen have built!
Perry Como
Negroponte condemning torture is like Kissinger condemning the domino theory.
John S.
That’s right!
That’s the kind of news I want to hear from Iraq. All these bombings and whatnot make me sad, and I’m sure cause the death of something cute and furry somewhere.
Pb
One right-wing talking point you don’t hear so much anymore (not from anyone sane at least):
Hah, if only.
Sojourner
Freedom is on the march!
Steve S
These are just the people expressing their right to freedom of Speech!
Lines
I thought all of the deaths in Iraq are just evidence that we’re successful? What happened to that claim?
ppGaz
Why aren’t we hearing about the constructive things that have come from the insurgency?
If the news is all one-sided, it’s no wonder that opinion is tilting to one side.
Bombings or no bombings, we’ve captured the tyrant and set the stage for Iraqi Freedom. Let’s keep our eyes on the prize, people.
a guy called larry
Why don’t we ever hear about the cars in Iraq that haven’t blown up yet?