I am too tired to even try to put a positive spin on this:
Large demonstrations broke out across the country Friday to denounce parliamentary elections that protesters say were rigged in favor of the main religious Shiite coalition. Also, the U.S. military said two soldiers were killed when their vehicle struck a roadside bomb in Baghdad on Friday.
No other details were released. At least 2,163 members of the U.S. military have died since the beginning of the Iraq war in March 2003, according to an Associated Press count.
Meanwhile, two Arab satellite television channels said that a Sudanese diplomat and five of his countrymen had been kidnapped in Iraq, and a Sudan Foreign Ministry spokesman appealed for their release.
*Sigh*
The Other Steve
Ahh, let me help you. I heard this one from Donald Rumsfeld’s press secretary.
Large demonstrations are good. They are a important part of a vibrant Democracy.
demimondian
Remember, demonstrations point to a nation with the confidence to believe that they will not be punished for participating. (On whether or not they will be punished for failing to participate, this commenter is silent.)
BlogReeder
Man, that is got to be to the most depressing piece of news reporting I’ve ever seen. Let’s see..
..denounce parliamentary elections..
..rigged in favor…
..two soldiers were killed…
..at least 2,163 members of the U.S. military have died..
..had been kidnapped..
..decrying last week’s elections…
..cheating and forgery..
..election fraud complaints..
.. boycott the new legislature…
..beaten by his American captors..
..attacked an Iraqi army checkpoint…
..killing eight soldiers..
..They tried to kill everybody..
..suffered over 250 desertions..
..They gave up..
..outside a Shiite mosque, killing four people…
and finally
..The formerly dominant Sunni minority fears being marginalized by the Shiite majority, which was oppressed during Saddam’s reign…
That’s the Associated Press for you. With so many negatives, it’s no wonder the simple-minded left are confused.
KC
Yes, demonstrations are good, as long as they don’t get out of hand, right?
Barry D
John, remember that just about everything said by the pro-war/pro-Bush right about this election was a repeat of what they said last time. They ignored the fact that the first election didn’t quell the war, because otherwise people might have realized that it’s not elections which are important, but their effects.
jg
The facts are biased.
Although to your point would it hurt them to throw in a reference to soldiers bringing school supplies to Iraqis kids into the middle of their story on demonstrations about election fraud? Just to add some balance maybe?
Pb
Only two soldiers died? Hey, that almost sounds like an improvement–lower than the daily average, even. Maybe that’s why Rummy is staying the course by drawing down troops now. And hey, with less soldiers in the field, maybe we can have less of them dying as well…
Perry Como
Iraq needs free speech zones.
BlogReeder
jg, that’s what I mean about being simple-minded.
Imagine, if you will, that the AP reported on your hometown in this fashion. All it reported were negatives. Murder, rapes, robberies, cheating, stealing, graffiti, fights on playgrounds, shoplifting, cursing, car accidents, whatever.
Remember these are all true. Every single one of them has happened.
I would have to ask, how can you live there?
Barbar
Where I live is exactly like Baghdad.
The only difference? The news media highlights some positive things.
So when 30 people were murdered yesterday in my city, it was OK, because I got some positive stuff in the paper today.
I feel bad for the people living in Baghdad, because they don’t get the positive news coverage that I get in my city.
Can the blogosphere do something about this negative news coverage? If we work together, something can surely be done.
Richard Bottoms
You voted for them. I didn’t. Suck it up.
TallDave
It’s still the only Arab country actually holding free elections.
They’re sort of the one-eyed man in the kingdom of the blind. And their one eye isn’t that good yet.
TallDave
And the commanders on the ground have OK’d troop reductions below the 139,000 baseline.
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/23/D8EM3QN00.html
TallDave
Large demonstrations are good. They are a important part of a vibrant Democracy.
Let’s remember that under Saddam, a large demonstration was usually followed by a large massacre of the demonstrators.
Now all he can do is complain his prison underwear isn’t soft enough.
Richard Bottoms
>It’s still the only Arab country actually holding free elections
So basically our allies Pakistan, Egypt, Jordan, and Oman are dictatorships. Okay, just so long as their are our dictatorships we’re cool.
Sine.Qua.Non
What a supercilious bullshit comment. Comments like that make the “simple-minded left” wonder where your brain took a holiday.
capelza
What about Turkey? I’m still trying to figure out what is going on in Lebanon as well, but that seems murky to me right now. But they were a Deomcracy that was then torn apart by civil war and then being caught between Israel and Syria.
Mark Wilson
Interestingly enough, every day is not a holiday.
StupidityRules
Capelza, Turkey isn’t an Arab country. They are muslims but they aren’t Arab.
Sojourner
The right are strangely silent on the implications of the strong showing of the Islamic fundamentalist party in the recent election. Why is that?
Ron Beasley
Democracy is messy. This was actually predicted by everyone who knows anything about Iraq. Unfortunately none of those people are part of the Bush administration.
capelza
StupidityRules, you’re right, they are mostly Turkish, duh. I was thinking ME instead of Arab. Anyone know what is going on in Lebanon these days?
Sojourner, what I hear is “Well if that is what they want, democracy and all”..basically, but don’t bring up Iran. :)
TallDave
So basically our allies Pakistan, Egypt, Jordan, and Oman are dictatorships. Okay, just so long as their are our dictatorships we’re cool.
Well we’re encouraging democratic reform in all those areas plus Saudi Arabia and others. Are you saying we should make them enemies instead of allies? Should we declare all non-democratic countries our enemies? Not sure what that would accomplish.
a guy called larry
Yup.
Maybe we should trade; Baghdad gets Superbowl XL, and we get a foreign army to
occupyliberate us. A positive event will do miracles for them.Cromagnon
Because 2.35 American Soldiers being killed everyday and over 100 wounded a week to support a fundamentalist Islamic regime with close ties to Iran is something they don’t want to contemplate. It just results in cognitive overload to even think about it
StupidityRules
Wouldn’t call either Oman, Jordan or Egypt democracies. The elected leader of Pakistan got overthrown by the current leader, but he’s a friend of the US… and Pakistan isn’t in the Middle East either…
And about Iraq, can an occupied country hold free elections? If the newly elected parliament demands the coalition forces to leave and they refuse, is it still a free country? Are the Iraqi parliament allowed to do whatever they want? If they for example would want to annex themselves with Iran?
TallDave
I’m not sure why anyone thinks Iraqis are begging to be told what to do by Iran, which isn’t even Arab.
Dawa/SCIRI has its ties to Iran, true. It would be odd if they didn’t have some ties, considering Iran is right on their border and together they comprise the leadership of most of Shia-dom. But they have their differences too.
TallDave
The right are strangely silent on the implications of the strong showing of the Islamic fundamentalist party in the recent election. Why is that?
Because they aren’t fundamentalists, they’re just religious. See Iran for what fundamentalists look like.
If they were fundamentalists, they would be demanding only Islamic Shia candidates drawn from the clergy, like in Iran
TallDave
And about Iraq, can an occupied country hold free elections?
Do Germany and Japan?
ppGaz
Turkey is not an Arab country. It’s a Muslim country.
ppGaz
Uh, yeah, Dave, as if any American paying attention for the last 25 years wouldn’t know what a fundamentalist looks like.
TallDave
Ah yes, here comes ppGaz to explain Bush is a fundamentalist theocrat too so we’re as screwed as Iran.
Well, it was a nice conversation while it lasted. Bye all!
ppGaz
Well no, not in the sense that your question probably is intended.
There will be no “free”, stable government in Iraq as long as the country is occupied by the US. It’s very likely that rejection of occupation will be the ultimate test of any Iraqi government’s legitimacy. Once we withdraw and stop being occupiers, the next phase of Iraq’s history begins, and we will have no control over that phase, whatever.
StupidityRules
TallDave, are you saying that Germany and Japan are occupied? Sure there are US troops in both countries but I guess that if they demanded that those troops should leave the US would comply. Not so sure about the troops in Iraq.
ppGaz
Sorry you couldn’t have the thread all to yourself, Dave.
I know you were looking forward to once again advancing your theory that Iraq is like Colonial America.
Hell, I was looking forward to it myself.
Well, maybe another day.
StupidityRules
There’s always the option of invading again… and again… and again…
ppGaz
You should know better than to try to put words in my mouth, Dave. It’s all you can do to put them in your own.
My “25 year” reference was specifically aimed at the theocracy in Iran. Don’t you pay attention to anything?
You are the eternal optimist … calling an exchange with you a “conversation.” That’s like calling a mousetrap a “rodent food dispenser.”
StupidityRules
ppGaz, why did you have to ruin this thread? ;)
I so did want to hear if TallDave believes that a free and democratic country is still free if their elected parliament and president demands an occuping force to leave and it refuses.
RonB
I don’t really see us pulling ourselves out of this tar baby in any great magnitude. The only thing that is going to save Iraq is foreign investment, and who will provide for their assets’ safety when we leave? I’m sorry, but the Rumsfeld drawdown is not a sign that we are pulling out. If we pull out, it’s a safe bet the government will fall and Iraq will erupt into total chaos as everyone vies for what resources are left. Baghdad’s fate will be that of Saigon’s in no time. Without an infrastructure, free of insurgent sabotage, the people of Iraq are in deep trouble. I deeply regret that we have presented the people of Iraq with the Scylla to Saddam’s Charybdis.
RonB
Have you been there, fella? There is no place in America like Baghdad, unless you have 20 foot concrete walls lining every major road, razor wire and fortifications in the city square, bulidings decimated by bombs on every block…saw it with my own eyes-somehow I doubt where you live even comes close.
RonB
…or perhaps you’d like to ask the people of Safwan if their life is comparable to any crime ridden city? Those people are living like rats in a blackened, crumbling hell that I will never forget. Safwan, incidentally, is the city on the border of Kuwait and Iraq. They were overjoyed to see us, by the way. Children cheered and followed our convoy as we rolled through.
They were fucking hungry.
Blue Shark
It brings a tear to the eye doesn’t it…
…GWB HAS brought American Style “Democracy” to Iraq.
…Mission accomplished yet again!
Pb
I remember a story about a some Kuwaitis who were overjoyed to see us too. Of course, that was before we paid for them, and then imprisoned and beat them. I wonder if that was one of the reasons that Tenet and Powell didn’t stay on–not wanting to keep torturing potential innocents and all…
dano347
TallDave Says:
[And about Iraq, can an occupied country hold free elections?]
Do Germany and Japan?
Tall Dave:
“Because they aren’t fundamentalists, they’re just religious. See Iran for what fundamentalists look like.
If they were fundamentalists, they would be demanding only Islamic Shia candidates drawn from the clergy, like in Iran”
While we’re still occupying the country? I think maybe they figured out that the fundamentalist theocracy begins after we’ve left. It’s so much easier that way.
TallDave:
“Well we’re encouraging democratic reform in all those areas plus Saudi Arabia and others. Are you saying we should make them enemies instead of allies?”
We HAVE made them enemies – or don’t they tell you that on FOX?
TallDave Says:
“And the commanders on the ground have OK’d troop reductions below the 139,000 baseline.”
Thank Murtha for that.
TallDave Says:
[And about Iraq, can an occupied country hold free elections?]
“Do Germany and Japan?”
The question should be: name an successful instance when an invader installed democracy to a country which has never previously known it? Japan does not count – they attacked us remember? How many times do we have to tell you? There is no similarity between this situation and WW2. None. We were attacked during WW2. We attacked Iraq. NO similarity!
Brian
Look like the Iraqis are getting this democracy thing down real good. When they lose, they act exactly like Democrats.
S.W. Anderson
To see what happens next, of course.
S.W. Anderson
Just stay tuned, because the farther along we go, the more it appears we’re going to find out.
Clue 1: Shi’ite fundamentalism in common, irrespective of national boundaries.
Clue 2: Strong desire in common to see the Americans the hell out of Iraqis’ midst and out of Iran’s neighborhood.
S.W. Anderson
I seem to recall, long about last spring, a sizeable contingent of Iraq’s fledgling interim legislative whateveritis put forth a resolution calling on the U.S. to start making plans for a sooner-rather-than-later withdrawal.
This resolution was received in official Washington with the same enthusiasm as the FBI showed for cuffing, stuffing and packing Ahmed Chalabi off to Amman, where many years of hard time await him.
Sorry, but to Bush & Co., freedoms, democracy, laws, relationships with other countries are all perfectly elastic and subject to change without notice.
BlogReeder
If history is any guide, I don’t see it either. Since you’ve been there, don’t you think the AP story was a little over the top? I don’t think they made anything up, but to jam pack all that desolation in one story is a little much. They could have spread it over several articles.
Perry Como
There’s a problem with that. The goal is to establish permanent bases for the forthcoming resource wars. Good or bad, left or right, the US is establishing a beachhead in order to secure energy resources for as long as possible. We took out a nasty dictator in the process and we can hopefully establish some semblance of a democracy. But we will have permanent bases in Iraq because it is in our long term strategic interests.
Expect to see Iran to capitulate or get bombed by March. The oil bourse going online and the “nuclear” deadline are related.
RonB
I don’t know. Maybe avid followers of current events already know Iraq is not all cake and roses regardless of an election, but I think the message coming from the WH is that this is a positive signpost towards successful resolution of Iraq, and realities on the ground, as has been the case since we invaded, say otherwise.
The media is serving as a counterbalance to the message from Washington. Make no mistake, Americans are doing heroic and wonderful things for the people of Iraq– but the good news is not what is moving Iraq, I’m afraid. The destruction, however, is. And that is why news reflects the negatives more often. Opening schools vs. murdered politicians and bombed IP barracks. Which has more import, more impact on tomorrow in Iraq?
RonB
That was the goal, but I think the proponents of the current incursion, especially the ones accountable to voters, are losing their taste for this type of rose-colored thinking, that it is no longer a “slam dunk” environment and never was.
Pb
Brian,
Looks like the Republicans are exporting
democracyelection fraud to Iraq…searp
Bushco is just making it up as they go along. In the end, this is all about domestic American politics. Our post 9/11 security policies have all been about frightening the public so that it will rally around the biggest mediocrity we have ever had as a president.
I just hope I live another 20-30 years so that I can read the historians on this period. Bush will make Warren Harding look good.
Jason
Ron B –
You’ve got it wrong. The good news IS what’s moving Iraq. The good news has been what’s been moving Iraq since Saddam fell. That’s why the Iraqi economy has rebounded. That’s why the ability of the insurgency to disrupt elections has collapsed. That’s why the Baathists were defeated. That’s why the Iraqis could come to vote to elect a provisional government . That’s why the Iraqis were able to draft a constitution. That’s why the Iraqis were able to elect a parliament. That’s why the Iraqis now have an army in the field, with capabilities now increasing exponentially. That’s why the Iraqis are now leading their own ops against the insurgents.
The people creating the bad news have utterly, utterly failed to stop any of this.
This is why the press has failed – because you can read them every day and still have the 170 degrees wrong perception that you do.
And no, it isn’t going to be an Iran-style theocracy. The people screaming about that have been wrong about everything else thus far. Iraq is not Iran, Iraqis are not Iranians. And the leading Shia, Sistani, the one man who could create a theocracy, has no interest in doing so, and is objectively pro democracy.
Further, the Iraqis have already drafted a constitution that prohibits a theocracy. Islam will have a great influence, yes, but if that is the rule of law the people understand and grant legitimacy to, then that is as it should be.
Sharia law is more developed than you think.
As I’ve argued before, some people know the price of everything and the value of nothing.
In 30 years, Iraq will be a success story. In many ways, it already is.
Jason
Oooh! They had large demonstrations!
The situation is almost as f-cked up as West Palm Beach in the year 2000!
demimondian
Except, Jason, that the news appears to be that the reason the Baathists were defeated may have been fraud. Some of the numbers which have come out are frankly inane, and they are troubling.
To first order, no, the results don’t seem to be out of line with reason. If, however, there were frequent instances of Al Sadr supporters voting ten times in Baghdad, or if it’s really the case that Sunni polling stations really did routinely recieve less than half of the necessary ballots, or if the law was flouted in Kirkuk to bring “fake” voters into the city, then there’s real trouble. (Paradoxically, worse with the last — Kirkuk was the Sunni triangle’s last hope for economic propserity. If the Kurds get it outright, however much they deserve it, then there’s no future in Iraq for the Sunni, and they might as well go to war.)
And don’t talk about West Palm Beach in 2000 unless you were there. The precinct in Boca Raton where the whole story broke for the first time had been my precinct just a few years earlier. I know that community of voters, and I know how confusing the ballots were. They were *nasty*.
RonB
Jason, I assume you have been there, right? Then let’s not BS. The elections only take place incident free because no one is allowed to drive a car anywhere near polling places. That seem like a positive situation to you? Heaven only knows what would happen otherwise.
capriccio
From someone named Jason:
“Further, the Iraqis have already drafted a constitution that prohibits a theocracy. Islam will have a great influence, yes, but if that is the rule of law the people understand and grant legitimacy to, then that is as it should be.”
Is this a statement borne of willful ignorance or is this a statement borne of utter contempt for the intelligence of the people who post here and know that the Iraqi constitution is not simply (ho-ho) “greatly influenced” by the Koran, but is subordinate to it…and even if it didn’t so explicitly the fundamentalists there like the fundmentalists here will always put their bloody holy book above any constitution…that’s what makes them frickin’ fundamentalists and the more of them the scrarier…here, there, and everywhere.
RonB
I was drunk last night and I missed this gem. People-creating bad news in Iraq. Creating bad news because there certainly isn’t any. Jason has a very active imagination.
I am just about done with the myth of the “MSM”. It has literally allowed any fool who wishes to make up their own take on anything to deny basic facts by squawking “MSM!!!MSM!” whenever the media reports something that doesn’t fit their preconceived notions.
Brian
Pb,
Thanks for proving my point.
Merry Christmas to you. Oh wait, I probably just hurt your feelings. I meant to say, non-denominational december day greetings to you.
BIRDZILLA
Do you think the liberal left-wing news media will cover this?