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76Comments

  2. 2.

    The Disenfranchised Voter

    This is great news, no doubt.

    BUT let us not forget that for one family, this is no miracle. To them, this is truly a tragedy.

    May the miner that past, RIP; and to his family go my most sincere condolensces.

  4. 4.

    Mary

    Wait a second. I really, really want this to be true, but so far, they have only confirmed that one has been killed and that they think 12 survived the explosion.

    The vehicle was not damaged by the explosion, and the 12 miners appeared to have exited it under their own power, he said.

    “That’s a very good thing,” he said. “That’s yet another glimmer of hope, but it raises a lot of questions as to where the employees might have gone.”

    He said the miners were each equipped with an hour’s worth of oxygen, which should have “gotten them to the outside.”

    “Our hope is that they found an area and secured it, built barricades and were able to survive,” he said. … West Virginia Gov. Joe Manchin told reporters late Tuesday that the rescue effort is “still an uphill battle, and still the odds are against us.”

    However, he said, “We believe in miracles in West Virginia, and we are still hoping for that miracle.”

    I want this to end with 12 men alive, but we still don’t know for sure.

  7. 7.

    ppGaz

    Great news. According to the cable feed I am getting, they are still bringing them out.

    We hope that all are well.

  10. 10.

    Ancient Purple

    Very good news. I am thankful these 12 men are alive. My prayers to the family and friends of the miner that died.

  12. 12.

    Geek, Esq.

    Joyous news.

    That one died is a tragedy, but it looked this morning like there would be thirteen dead.

  14. 14.

    ppGaz

    And I’d like to be the first to fling these cadavers at the supporters of the Bush administration

    groan …….

  15. 15.

    p.lukasiak

    groan …….

    yeah, I know it was tasteless….

    but people like Cole disregard the deaths of innocent iraqis day in and day out — then go on a rampage when a democrat raises the issue of the Bush administration’s policy on workplace safety at a moment when public attention is finally focussed on the issue.

    So I’m a tad bitter…

  17. 17.

    capelza

    Came online to say, well, what everyone else has said. Good news, with sadness for the loss of one and the safety of the other twelve.

  18. 18.

    ppGaz

    yeah, I know it was tasteless….

    but people like Cole disregard the deaths of

    I don’t think that’s true. Not agreeing with us is not the same thing as “disregarding the deaths.”

    I overstate for effect as much as anybody, so I’m qualified to point out that you made a gross overstatement there. And pointless, given the circumstances of the thread. Relax, Bush is not going to get credit for saving the miners.

  19. 19.

    Scott H

    Twelve survivors is not as great as thirteen, but it is a blessing. (Will the media stay for the many questions that Ben Hatfield et al need to answer?)

  21. 21.

    Geek, Esq.

    Ugh. Can we celebrate the rare glimmer of news like this without descending into petty bickering?

    Tonight is a night for a community to celebrate, and to mourn.

    Tomorrow the questions should continue until they’re answered.

  22. 22.

    ppGaz

    Can we celebrate the rare glimmer of news like this without descending into petty bickering?

    Lukasiak gets on my nerves.

  23. 23.

    matty

    thank god (or your thankee of choice – personally i believe the mountaineers may have been involved).

    weird to see them being driven to the hospital connected to the church where i was an altar boy for all those years. pretty good hospital, though.

  24. 24.

    p.lukasiak

    I don’t think that’s true. Not agreeing with us is not the same thing as “disregarding the deaths.”

    I can’t recall a single thread that John has ever started that actually, seriously, “regards” the death of innocent Iraqis.

    Maybe there actually are a few…..as long as they have been “killed by the terrorists” or are “victims of Saddam” — their deaths serve his political agenda, so “regard” might have been provided.

    but other than using innocent Iraqis as props for his political Punch and Judy show, I’ve seen no evidence that Cole gives a flying fuck about them.

  27. 27.

    Scott H

    Oh just great.

    Now they (CNN) are reporting only one survivor is known. He (Randal McCloy?) is in critical care at St Joe’s hospital being stabilized to be transferred to Ruby in Morgantown.

  29. 29.

    over it

    The rat bastards who let the families celebrate for 3 hours should be lynched.

    Disgusting. And so damn saddening. I cannot even imagine.

  30. 30.

    Stephani

    RIP

    My prayers go out to everyone involved.

    Nothing could have made me sadder than that turn in news.

  33. 33.

    SmilingPolitely

    Officials blame “miscommunication”

    Now that is just seriously fucked up… Those poor people.

  34. 34.

    S.W. Anderson

    Again we see that first, unconfirmed reports should be taken for no more than what they are. That’s especially so when hope and other emotions play so strong a part in a situation.

    The immediacy of live TV reporting can be impressive, when the news comes out “right.” As with the 2000 elections and other stories from time to time, unfortunately, it sometimes comes out wrong.

    By all means, prayers for the grieving, that they’ll find comfort and needed courage. But let’s also say a prayer for the kind of standards, training, oversight and hell-to-pay consequences that just might keep this kind of tragedy from being repeated. By all accounts, that mining operation was a death trap that should’ve been shut down dozens of dangerous violations ago. That it wasn’t should forever pain the conscience of the many people who could’ve put safety first but chose instead to honor other priorities.

  35. 35.

    Far North

    I would have laughed had the subject not been so catastrophic but I watched Paula Zaun on CNN this evening cover this story continuously with breaks to the daughter of the church pastor, then to a relative, then to a reporter, then another reporter. Only thing was, there was no news value. Not one bit of new info had emerged for the entire period that Paula was on. All it turned out to be was disaster porn and Paula Zaun begging every new person she interviewed to provide some new information that they didn’t have.

    Entertainment news is what we have now. Only it’s not to entertaining.

  37. 37.

    DecidedFenceSitter

    From what I understand this morning on NPR, it was a rumor mill that exploded. Someone overheard something, made an assumption and told someone else, who told someone else, etc, etc. Gossip travels faster than light.

    Or at least thats the spin they are using today.

    Command Center as an entity is only responsible if they released an official release stating that the 12 miners were alive; otherwise, it is on the heads of a few individuals who started the rumor. As far as making them wait 3 hours to change the news, over it, well, haste had already fucked things up once; I commend them for not going all half-assed and apparently doing some planning and thinking.

  38. 38.

    Krista

    Either way, it’s incredibly sad. I really feel for those families — to have that hope, and then to have it snatched away from you. It’s not a situation that anybody should have to go through.

    And they do need to investigate the hell out of that mine’s operation. Why so many safety violations? Why were they able to keep operating with those violations? I’m not well-read enough on the subject of mine safety to contribute many ideas to this, but I dearly hope that whoever’s responsibility this is will work hard and diligently, with an eye towards increasing safety for all miners, coal and otherwise.

  39. 39.

    skip

    This gives a new meaning to “miscommunication.” I cannot imagine that reaction of those poor families.

  40. 40.

    Steve

    That is really sad. I went to bed thinking 12 had been rescued and I was unbelievably depressed this morning to find out it wasn’t true.

    Still, if the 13th miner hangs on, it’s a better result than I had expected, although not the one I hoped for, obviously. But the false hope provided to all those families makes the terrible tragedy that much worse.

    The news I’m seeing is that the company knew within 20 minutes of the report getting out that it wasn’t accurage, but they held off for hours on issuing a statement because they didn’t want to compound inaccuracy with further inaccuracy. I understand this, and I hesitate to criticize decisions made in the heat of the moment, but I kind of think they shouldn’t have left the families to celebrate good news if they expected to be retracting it later. A statement along the lines of “the 12 survivors is just a rumor, we certainly hope it is true but we will issue a statement when we have confirmation one way or the other” would have sufficed.

  41. 41.

    Bob In Pacifica

    rilkefan, no Lord besides the lord of this particular mine took those lives. To blame a higher power for these deaths may be temporarily soothing but ultimately doesn’t do much for the next bunch of guys who go down into the hole. Sort of like saying that they were all alive when 12 were dead.

  42. 42.

    The Disenfranchised Voter

    Well, what is the difference between someone blaming a higher power for their deaths and someone praising a higher power for their rescue?

    Frankly, I think both are silly. I couldn’t believe in an omnipotent (all-powerful) God.

    I am an agnostic myself, but it is my belief that if a higher power does indeed exist either that higher power, itself, is bound by the laws of nature, or that higher power is of the deist variety.

  43. 43.

    kenB

    Bob in Pacifica, around these parts any god-related statement should be read as if it were wrapped in <irony> tags.

  44. 44.

    kenB

    Grr, that worked fine in preview — it should have read “wrapped in [irony] tags”, except with around it.

    Experimenting:
    <irony>
    <<irony>>

  45. 45.

    CaseyL

    NPR reports this morning that the mine had numerous and extensive safety violations – including repeated cites, and forced shut-downs, over accumulation of combustible materials.

  46. 46.

    Mr Furious

    Ugh. I am speechless. I cannot believe that story got out. Fucking awful. I am unbelievably pissed at the media right now. Whether they or the mining company are ultimately responsible for the release, it makes me literally sick.

  47. 47.

    Doug

    This is horrible. Being incorrectly told their loved ones were alive is about the only thing that could have made this tragedy worse for the families of the dead miners. False hope is worse than no hope, I think. And, wtf — 3 hours to correct the miscommunication?

    Mining is a rough business.

  48. 48.

    LITBMueller

    I heard an interesting interview on CNN on my Sirius radio this morning (man, I love that radio..) with a woman who was in the Spago church when the Governor announced that the initial reports were wrong.

    She described she and other townspeople ran to the church when they saw the Governor drive by. In the church, the Governor announced that there was a miscommunication and that he takes full responsibility.

    The church then apparently erupted into angry calls of “liar!” It seems that the Governor could not talk above the yelling, so he blurted out that, in fact, 12 miners had died and only one survived.

    That’s when all Hell broke loose – the whole place broke into crying, screams and accusations, and a whole bunch of people rush the Governor, probably ready to strangle him in their anger and despair. Apparently, the State Police kept the people back, and the woman who was being interviewed said she took her kids and left the chaos.

    She then made the most important point of all: for three hours, all the 24-hour news stations were reporting that 12 miners were found alive. Yet, somebody…at least one person!….knew that that information was wrong. Yet, no one corrected it.

    Why????

    This fiasco makes the Geraldo Rivera in Al Capone’s Vault thing look tame. Heads will roll.

  50. 50.

    demimondian

    No, Bob, rilkefan is right. The point of that verse is that we all die, and that our lives often end tragically — and that the survivors ask “why”, and there is no “why”. That doesn’t mean we don’t hold those who were careless or negligent responsible for their careless and negligence, but rather that we accept that “In the midst of life, we are in death.”

  51. 51.

    Lines

    The only thing that matters to me is that needless deaths like this be avoided in the future. That requires a true democracy where checks and balances force companies and the government to work together to create safety and health guidelines and then actually FOLLOW them truthfully.

    The mine owners should be the first held responsible, and then those that failed to hold the mine owners responsible after that, and so on and so on.

    As for the miscommunications and rampant rumor mills, grief is temporary, death is not.

  52. 52.

    Mr.Ortiz

    The misinformation was a gut-wrenchingly awful thing to have happened but, honestly, it’s a miracle that even one person survived. Hopefully he’ll be able to tell us what happened down there. Maybe then we can discuss who, if anyone, is at fault and what to do about it.

  54. 54.

    Al Maviva

    Hey, maybe Bush did destroy coal mining safety standards. Let’s look at the numbers relating to mine fatalities from the Mine Safety and Health Administration which tracks all mining fatalities and find out.

    Coal Mining Fatalities, By Year:
    1996- 39
    1997- 30
    1998- 29
    1999- 35
    2000- 38 (171 total, 1996-2000)
    2001- 42
    2002- 27
    2003- 30
    2004- 28
    2005- 22 (149 total, 2001-2005)

    Metal, Non-Metal (non-coal) Mining Fatalities, By Year:
    1996- 47
    1997- 61
    1998- 51
    1999- 55
    2000- 47 (261 total, 1996-2000)
    2001- 30
    2002- 42
    2003- 26
    2004- 27
    2005- 35 (160 total, 2001-2005)

    Fatalities in coal mining were significantly higher during the five year 1996-2000 period (171), than in the 2001-2005 period (149). Coal mining fatalities have steadily decreased since 2001, falling noticeably post-2001, as have Metal/Non-Metal (mining other than coal) fatalities. In percentages, non-coal mining fatalities have dropped approximately 38%, and coal mining fatalities have dropped roughly 12%.

    Insofar as any president is to blame for mine fatalities or the lack thereof, one could reasonably say that the last Adminstration was clearly worse on mine safety, than the present Administration. Knowing that technological changes and advances in workplace practices often improve safety, I happen to think that is a stupid argument to make and kind of disgusting. For one thing, it’s a terrible tragedy, and the reason they call them “accidents” and not “on-purposes” is because sometimes unforeseeable things just happen, and they weren’t caused by human hands and human intentions or negligence. For another thing, I don’t know that we can know what caused this tragedy yet, so it’s a bit too early to start calling for impeachment over this. For another other thing, given the large number of people involved in the mining industry, I’m not sure that the fatality figures are statistically significant enough to draw conclusions from.

    But as long as people are going to base broad condemnations of Bush starting from the premises that (1) he destroyed mining safety standards, and, (2) that the current tragedy is related to that, I suppose it’s probably fair to concede the accusers’ premises for the sake of argument and see if the facts support the condemnatory conclusion.

    I believe that it is hard to look at the facts about mine fatalities over the last 10 years, and conclude that the Bush Administration has has a measurably negative effect on mine safety; in fact looking at the steady drop in coal mining (and especially non-coal mining fatalities) I believe it would be reasonable, and logically easier, to reach the opposite conclusion.

    Yeah, I know, I must be mis-reading the numbers. I’m looking forward to hearing the really committed Bush haters’ take on these numbers. Not a sparrow falls, but Bush’s providence has a hand in it, but that viewpoint makes it tough to explain these numbers away.

  55. 55.

    Jim Allen

    Please, Al, you’re just throwing cadavers to make a political point. We aren’t allowed to do that here.

  56. 56.

    Anderson

    Re: Rilkefan’s quotation, see this:

    “… May God have mercy on their souls.”

    In other circumstances, the religious reference would make Randy uncomfortable, but here it seems like the only appropriate thing to say. Think what you will about religious people, they always have something to say at times like this. What would an atheist come up with? Yes, the organisms inhabiting that submarine must have lost their higher neural functions over a prolonged period of time and eventually turned into pieces of rotten meat. So what?

    Neal Stephenson, Cryptonomicon, p. 441.

  58. 58.

    Lines

    Sure Al, except that mine closures and other issues have contributed to the lower fatalities in America. Ignore the fact that the MSHA has pointed to the fact that their funding has been lowered to the point where they can no longer enforce the regulations that exist, let alone create new ones.

    Quick, Al, rush out the next talking point!

  59. 59.

    Jim Allen

    Cadavers are, by definition, dead, Al.

    But I’m sure you’ll get a severe reprimand from John Cole for using those dead miners to score political points. Right, John?

  60. 60.

    The Other Steve

    Hey Al, while you’re trolling here… Why not provide some figures on mining production levels for those same years. Most of the mining industry went into bankruptcy after 2000.

    Frankly, I don’t much care for politicizing this tragedy. But I really don’t fucking care for the Gotcha politics of the right. That shit yesterday where Cole and a million other wingnut sites linked to a mydd article was one of the scummiest pieces of crap I’ve seen in a long time.

    I also think that people whining and complaining about the misinformation that came out need to get a grip on reality. Sometimes mistaken reports come out during tragedies. Sometimes the news is worse than reality, sometimes it’s better. But in the end none of that matters, reality is reality and you need to deal with it.

  61. 61.

    Paul Wartenberg

    You need to update this. 12 of the miners turned up dead, the report of them being found alive were wrong, and there was only one survivor. By the descriptions of it, there had been survivors from the blast, and they had tried to throw up barricades of some kind to create breathing space, but they just didn’t have enough time… :(

  62. 62.

    Nikki

    I also think that people whining and complaining about the misinformation that came out need to get a grip on reality. Sometimes mistaken reports come out during tragedies. Sometimes the news is worse than reality, sometimes it’s better. But in the end none of that matters, reality is reality and you need to deal with it.

    I don’t think the problem is the misinformation. The problem is the 3-hour delay in correcting the misinformation.

  63. 63.

    demimondian

    The problem is the 3-hour delay in correcting the misinformation.

    In my opinion, the problem isn’t even the three-hour delay, it’s the two hour and forty minute interval during which the company knew the story was wrong and yet remained silent.

  65. 65.

    Pb

    Unsurprisingly, Al Maviva is wrong again, certainly for some of the reasons cited above.

    When you take employees into account, you end up with something like this:

    Fatality rate 2001-2004: 101 fatalities divided by 308370 employees = 0.0328% or so.

    Fatality rate 1997-2000: 106 fatalities divided by 342864 employees = 0.0309% or so.

    So you can stop shouting “BUT CLINTON WAS WORSE!” now… he wasn’t.

    P.S. I just used the operator statistics, because that should be the bulk of it, but feel free to add in contractors if you like. I’ll also leave the 1993-1996 period as an exercise to the reader (or rather, to Al Maviva… he could use some practice here)

  66. 66.

    Al Maviva

    Commerce department figures for coal mines show that mine production is more or less stable over the last ten years, even slightly increasing over the most recent five years, compared to the five years prior to that. Per the Department of Energy, in short tons:

    1996- 1,063,855,513
    1997- 1,089,931,788
    1998- 1,117,535,167
    1999- 1,100,431,428
    2000- 1,073,611,561

    (total 96-00: 5,445,365,457 tons)

    2001- 1,127,688,806
    2002- 1,094,283,061
    2003- 1,071,752,573
    2004- 1,111,479,361
    2005- 1,127,892,000 (projected)

    (total, 01-05 5,533,095,801 tons)

    05 figures are not yet fully reported. The projected figure for 05 was arrived at by averaging the production for the first three quarters, and by adding that average amount to the first three quarters production figures. Coal production has actually been slightly greater, net, under Bush than under the last guy. That means that the raw figures for casualties, as well as casualties per ton mined, have actually dropped over the period in question.

    Next ad hominem or conjecture?

  67. 67.

    Al Maviva

    Not referring to you, PB as a deliverer of meritless arguments but to Lines & Steve. Your argument is fair – greater casualties per operator, but go ahead, run the coal mining casualties per ton mined figure. Fewer net casualties in the last five years, fewer casualties per ton. I’ll take that over “greater casualties per operator” and again point to the fact that we’re not talking about nearly statistically insignificant differences between the Clinton Administration and the present Administration. And insofar as these mathematically trivial percentage differences are attributable to any one causative factor, it’s probably attributable to advances in mining technology allowing greater production with fewer operators. I didn’t say that I thought Clinton was harmful to mining safety. I said I thought that the idea that Bush policies are somehow behind this latest tragedy was pretty stupid, but I was willing to concede that point for the sake of argument.

  70. 70.

    Pb

    Al Maviva,

    At least you agree that these are mathematically trivial percentage differences. And yes, I also agree that in the big picture, mining technology and mine safety has generally improved over time. However, I don’t find “deaths per ton of coal mined” to be as relevant a statistic, certainly not more relevant than “deaths per number of people actually working”. But I’m glad that I apparently misunderstood your original point. Cheers.

  71. 71.

    Al Maviva

    Well, that was kind of my point PB. I accepted a premise I thought was pretty dubious (“it’s Bush’s fault”) and then looked at the numbers. Initially, I didn’t know whether the numbers would show an increase or decrease and was surprised to find a substantial decrease in net casualties, and a more statistically trivial percentage decrease in fatalities per ton of coal produced. The leap in logic that I’m being faulted here, post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning – that’s the correct term for it DV – is the same leap that Lukasiak and Lines and others are making. “Bush gutted mining safety programs therefore it’s fair to blame him for this disaster.” Well, if it’s fair to impute that blame to him, then what about past disasters? I couldn’t give a damn about Bill Clinton either way, but his name is attached to the factual analysis by virtue of having been president when mining casualties were slightly higher. Well, if Bush is responsible for these casualties because of his policies, then surely the last guy must be responsible for the casualties occurring on his watch when he had policy authority, right? Like I said at the outset, I think it’s a stupid argument in the absence of facts showing causation, but it applies the logic some on the left are applying to Bush, to a guy the left more or less loves. It’s particularly funny getting called out on it as illogical by some folks who were applying precisely the same reasoning to explain why Bush is at fault on the earlier thread on the subject.

  72. 72.

    The Disenfranchised Voter

    It’s particularly funny getting called out on it as illogical by some folks who were applying precisely the same reasoning to explain why Bush is at fault on the earlier thread on the subject.

    If you notice, I said I agree with your conclusion that blaming Bush for this is stupid. However, the left commentors didn’t use a broad post hoc fallacy to justify their claims. It mainly consisted of seperate but smaller post hocs, thus making it more believable. Not saying they are right, just saying that your leap in logic was slightly bigger than yours so that is why I noticed it.

  74. 74.

    Pb

    Al Maviva,

    Actually I think that the policy question is a valid one to research. I don’t know how much it would affect this particular instance (it could, if not in the cause of the accident, then in the rescue efforts), but in general I certainly think there’s a case to be made there.

    Also, I will say that if you are actually interested in comparing administrations over time, then you’d probably want to look for more trends in longer term data to get a sense of what can be attributed to a given administration’s policies vs. what can be attributed to improved mining technologies–if it’s even reasonable to expect that the two could be separated.

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