An open thread so resident scumbag Paddy O’Shea can gloat about American military deaths and the possible domestic political gain his party might see because of them.
Open Thread
This post is in: Previous Site Maintenance
Open Thread
Reader Interactions
115Comments
Comments are closed.
Slide
I don’t know Paddy O’Shea from a hole in the wall but that seems like a low blow there John. But what else is knew.
John Cole
You missed the comment I deleted from a previous post a few minutes ago that prompted this, whichwent something like:
“X dead today, Y dead since Thursday, you Bush trash better get your apologia ready.”
Or some crap like that. Paddy earns every blow he gets from me, low or otherwise.
Stormy70
Mama Sheehan is preaching truth to power again.
She sounds a little frustrated that her anti-war vigil folks just go home afterwards and drink brewskies, and nothing is changing. Stupid American peaceniks!
Stormy70
She and Osama should pick out china. Oh wait, he’s dead.
John Cole
You know I have a Sheehan addiction, and am fighting to remain clean, and then you come and wave that shit in front of me. Shame on you, Stormy.
Slide
Well, if anyone is gloating over the horrible news coming out of Baghdad then they deserve to be attacked. No one should take comfort that the Bush strategy in Iraq is an abject failure. But you know what infuriates me more than Paddy’s comments? Paul Bremer’s comments. He said that they were completely taken by surprise by the insurgency. Huh? Why? How fucking clueless are these guys. Hey, its great to have a rosy optimistic approach to things but you better plan for the worst case scenario when you are dealing with the lives of american servicemen.
Couple this complete ignorance of what many of the experts predicted would happen in Iraq (including Brent Skowcroft, Gen Zinni, Gen Shenseki, the State Department, the CIA) with the failure to get available armour to our troops. This is negligence bordering on criminality. I wish those that initially supported this war would express more outrage at the woeful performance of this adminstration in executing that war than on its critics.
Stormy70
I have no shame, I’m a Republican. One must learn to confront their addictions to be truly healed. And that’s the truthiness of the matter. :)
Stormy70
The soldiers don’t really want more armor. I wouldn’t want to lug it around in 115 degree heat, either.
demimondian
That statement appears to be too facty to have come from a Republican, though, Stormy. I promise you a return to normalcy, though. ;)
Slide
Stormy:
What a complete idiot.
Stormy70
Slide, I thought you could read the article before commenting, but your wisdom knows no bounds.
John Cole
Slide- When I read the NY Times article about the 93 Marine deaths, the first thing I said to myself was “They want them to wear ceramic fucking panels over top their body armor? Are they insane?”
So call me a complete idiot, too. And the troops mentioned in the article Stormy linked to.
Having been in the region in full combat gear, I can tell you that I personally would not want to lug around the rest of the extra shit, either. You guys have no idea how much shit they have to hump around to begin with, and how hot and heavy it is. Hell, Slide- you are a cop- you know how much difficulty they had getting police to start to wear simple thin vests.
Paddy O'Shea
Top Ten Bush Trash Apologia For Iraq Deaths (The John Cole Brown Star Of Complicity – Special Edition)
1) More people die in traffic accidents.
2) Saddam Hussein would have nuked us by now.
3) You talk about our military dead because you want use it for political advantage AND you hate America.
4) It’s Clinton’s fault.
5) Freedom doesn’t come cheap.
6) How can it be Bush’s fault? He takes the advice of our military commanders.
7) The media lies.
8) You libs hate this because soon Iraq will have a Republican president.
9) I was listening to rush this morning, and he said the moms of these heroes called in and told him how proud they are.
10) Cindy Sheehan supports terrorism.
11) It must be working. We haven’t had any terrorist attacks in America since 9-11.
12) Breaking! #3 Al Qaeda leader captured!
Slide
yeah stormy I read the article, did YOU? From the article:
Ok, so not 100% of soldiers were supportive of the article. How many were?
Yeah? so? I wore body armour when I was a cop and I could say the same thing but I wore the damn uncomfortable vest every day I went to work.
Oh, ok.. well we have ONE vote against body armor.
Ok, now I will assume we have 93 that would have voted for the body armor.
seems like more votes for the armor.
hmmm… seems like another vote for armor.
Ok.. that was from the article in which YOU conclude:
I repeat, You are an idiot.
Slide
We can all agree that wearing the body armor would be a personal choice. Some soldiers prefering the added protection while others prefering the added mobility with less. But can ANYONE really support not giving them the choice? Those that wished the added protection were not even given the opportunity. And that is shameful.
Stormy70
Oooh, pithy. Yet the AP wrote an entire article about soldiers not wanting to wear more armor.
Your head is starting to spin early this morning with the BDS.
Paddy O'Shea
Slide: How can you be outraged by what I posted when it was deleted by Old King Cole before you read it?
Just curious.
Cole doesn’t want to discuss this topic because it is too horrible for anyone to contemplate, particluarly those who actually supported Bush in the first place.
Something he now denies, sort of.
Slide
You read that article as suggesting that all soldiers don’t want the body armor? lol.. what is it about republicans that they cherry pick only the info that supports their case. The article showed that there were soldiers on BOTH sides of the debate. But Stormy wants to DENY those soldiers that wanted increased protection from available equipment to be denied having it. Why? Why don’t you support our troops Stormy?
demimondian
Stormy…did you actually read the article? Slide’s summary is quite accurate — the article is much more mixed in its tone than you suggest.
Slide
Paddy you seem to have as much a problem with reading comprehension as our friend stormy does. I said:
IF…IF… IF.. IF.. look it up. I have no idea what you said.. but IF.. IF.. IF you were gloating you need to be attacked.
ppGaz
Like I said to another thread, you and Stormy deserve each other.
Un-fucking believable. This post of Stormy’s not only sums up her contribution to your blog, it can serve as a standard against which all Republican comment should be measured.
I mean, when “I can’t find those darned WMDs anywhere” is funny when the president says it, then “I wouldn’t want to lg it around in 115 degree heat” is funny too.
Who needs Jon Stewart, when we can you you guys for free?
Mark this date down, really. You guys are never going to top this. Balloon-Juice has reached its pinnacle.
Congratulations.
ppGaz
You forgot the “wink, wink” John.
You make phony outrage over Paddy, and allow this stupid drunken idiot to shit all over your blog all the time?
John Cole
Paddy- You are a troll. You have never come here to discuss anything. You have come here to post whatever atrios or the DU has up, to queer every thread, and to call people names. My responses to you will be to ignore you or to say nasty things to you- which ever feels better at the time.
Paddy O'Shea
“But you know what infuriates me more than Paddy’s comments?”
Your words Slide. Cover them in hot salsa and eat them.
Slide
You know I got banned from this blog for using a word that I can’t think of a substitute for right now. Body armor was available that would have prevented many of the fatalities in Iraq. The pentagon, for some inexplicable reason, was unable to get those vests to the soldiers that wanted them in theater. Family members had to buy them in many cases. Unfuckinbelievable. And yet we have people on this board making APOLOGIES for this. If a Democratic adminstration had done something like this can you just imagine what Stormy and John would be saying? For John to say he won’t want to wear it in 115 degree heat…or for Stormy to dismissively say, “soldiers don’t want it” is just remarkable. Like I said, I can’t think of any other words to describe those positions.
Paddy O'Shea
Cole: You’re about as a fulla shit smarmy asshole as has ever fouled the internet. That “trying to take political advantage out of miltary deaths in Iraq” crap is as big and vicious a lie as has ever been told.
Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and Karl Rove have nothing on you, fat pants.
Anyone who is not outraged over the horrors taking place in Iraq has an asshole where their heart should be.
Add the one you have between your ears and your personal tally is 3.
Slide
and I got banned?
fat pants?
Paddy O'Shea
Slide: Old Irishism – It isn’t that his arse is large, it’s just that his pants are fat.
John Cole
Slide- Get off your damned hobby horse.
Nowhere am I apologizing for anything, in fact, I bet if you checked the archives regarding body armor you would be surprised what you see.
Fucking dishonest hacks.
And I would not want to wear extra ceramic fucking panels in 115 degree heat. You know, what you are not getting is that there are trade-offs.
Hell, I bet we could lower the fatality rate a liitle bit more if we lined Kevlar helmets with ceramic and coveredd it in a titanium shell. And then we could give it a bullet-proof platsic visor. It would weigh 25 pounds, and could only be worn for five minutes at a time, and would be so expensive we could only field an Army of 5,000, but it might lower the fatality rate.
Next, we could just get rid of body armor, and make a round barrel like shell composed of layers of kevalr, ceramic, natural fibers, and a titanium coating. Maybe a layer of Depleted Uraniaum, too, like an Abrams tank. There would be no arm holes, only a hole for the soldiers head, so we would even cut down on the loss of limbs!
Next, once the soldier gets in that barrel, another soldier could put his helmet on for him. To make the soldier even safer, we could then make new troop carrying vehicles. We will simply hollow out the turret of an M1, and get rid of the weapon system, and make room for two troopsin this new armor. That would reduce fatalities even more.
Then, to make sure they are totally safe, we could park the M1’s in a military parking lot in Peoria. Safest soldiers ever!
Of course, they would not be able to move, they could not do their job, they would not be in theatre etc.
There are trade-offs. I am fully in favor of providing our soldiers with the best we have, but this has to be looked at honestly, and not through your ‘gotcha’ prims that you look through everything.
The study says that some of these deaths may have been prevented by more heavy plates. Does the study conclude how many more would be killed becasuse the soldiers were immobile? Does it state how many more would be killed because they were unable to move quickly and provide suppressing fire? Does it look at a whole lot of variables that you will fail to even mention, because it destroys your narrative? No.
So quit your fucking games, and quit acting like I am some callous fuck who doesn’t give a shit about anything.
John Cole
Slide- You got temporarily banned for calling someone a c-bomb. You know what you said, and you know it was wrong.
John Cole
Paddy/JadeGold/Whoever you are- just go away.
Paddy O'Shea
Slide: Can you imagine someone discussing ways of making our military safer? It’s tantamount to saying that Bush is complicit in their deaths for sending them to war in poorly armored transport vehicles or something.
Outrageous!
Stormy70
Naveen, ypu are breaking my heart!
Oh and all you bright bulbs up there care to find where I stated that I thought the soldiers should not have body armor?
Where did I come out and say that the soldiers should be denied body armor?
Nowhere. More of the left’s truthiness shining through. Too far up on your high horse to actually comprehend another’s words. I just mentioned that most soldiers will not want to put more armor on their bodies in 115 degree heat. I didn’t say they would not do it or they should be denied the choice. But, truthiness to the power, brother Slide.
Paddy O'Shea
Gotta say one thing for Cole, he’s really working hard for the money the PajamasMedia people are sending him.
Think any of that cash came from Abramoff or his allies?
Stormy70
Now I have to put up my Christmas tree. Cato has destroyed it enough for one season. Then some Stake-n-Shake Breakfast and Angel all day long.
Sweet.
EL
I have a lot of respect for you and this blog, John; but I have to disagree with this sort of personal attack. There’s also an imbalance of power here – Paddy (who I may disagree with, in style often, and probably in substance at times) comments inside a thread. You have put something personal on the front page which can’t be answered there.
While I don’t care for the way Paddy stated this, I don’t equate his comment
with “gloating” about military deaths. It seems more like rage to me, on the order of: “You guys got us into this, more and more of our guys are dead, and all we get in return are justifications.”
Krista
That makes sense. Some would have opted against it, no doubt. But some would have opted for it, despite the discomfort. They should have the choice.
And, I truly hope that there’s a lot of R&D going on right now to find effective armor that’s reasonably comfortable. The status quo should not be acceptable when it comes to this.
EL
And to follow my above post, this
is equally uncalled for. I see absolutely no indication that his opinions could be affected by money – this is slander. John frequently disagrees with other bloggers on the right. I come here because he is willing to question and examine.
Slide
that is an absolute lie. I never used the C word to anybody. You banned me (on Christmas eve no less) when I quoted the dictionary definition of APOLOGIST and you took offense to it.
ppGaz
Classic.
As you know, I like you live in a place with very hot summers. 115 degrees is not that big a deal in my town.
So I was working around some law enforcement types a while back, and they were putting on their bulletproof coverings to go out and to battle with the druglords, or whoever, and I said something like “You guys must hate wearing that gear in this (August) weather.”
Their response was essentially “No shit.” Followed by this: “The discomfort wears off when you are getting shot at.”
The point is, if you were going into combat and you had a choice between the protection and shedding the discomfort, you’d take the protection, if you were smart. So your remark earlier just leaves one shaking one’s head.
You know, it wouldn’t kill you to once in a while just admit that you made a gaffe. It isn’t like you don’t get the opportunity on a regular basis.
Paddy O'Shea
El: Being called a scumbag can have that effect on people. Call it retaliation.
CaseyL
I think the issue isn’t whether the soldiers wanted the armor; the issue is that they didn’t have the option. And, y’know, as much as they bitch about the armor, maybe they’d’ve bitched while putting it on – if they’d had it to put on. Also, lest we forget, TIIC* didn’t send enough armored vehicles, either. So soldiers didn’t have body armor AND didn’t have armored vehicles.
Anyone remember the clip from Fox News that circulated far and wide right after the Second Inauguration? Style commentator Judy Bacharach got into an argument with the news anchor over the $40 million spent on Bush’s triumphal re-investiture. Bacharach said the $40 million would have been better spent on armor for the Humvees; the news anchor kept bleating that Bush had shown his support for the troops with a prayer breakfast.
That was, oh, a few hundred casualties and a few thousand maimings ago.
This latest revelation of the Bush Admin’s depraved indifference to human life comes on the heels of Bremer’s admission that the WHIGs really didn’t expect the insurgency, after all.
The Right can keep on putting lipstick on this pig, can keep frantically perfuming all the pigs they’ve lain down with, but that doesn’t hide the squalor or the stench. Bush is, frankly, a monster. Cheney’s worse. And I’m done trying to figure out what goes on in their supporters’ minds; all I know is, it ain’t pretty.
*The Idiots In Charge
John Cole
My bad, Slide. I was thinking of Andrei. You guys all sound so much alike, it is hard to keep you apart. Although simply claiming you merely quoted the dictionary definition of ‘apologist’ is a little dishonest.
John Cole
PPGAZ- It is not merely a trade-off between comfort and protection. It is a trade-off between mobility and protection as well.
And comparing guys who have to wear heavy body armor with a full combat load for days on end in sustained combat operations with a coupls of DEA agents and local cops throwing on body armor for a few hours worth of raid on drug dealers simply demonstrates to me you have no idea what we are really talking about.
Krista
Great line.
And yeah John, that was Andrei.
Why’s everybody so grumpy today? Hung over or something?
Paddy O'Shea
Kristi: John was upset that the 17 deaths the U.S. suffered in Iraq in the last 24 hours might be used for political purposes by those opposed to Bush.
Which, of course, is usually his first concern in these matters.
Krista
John, I can see your point about the reduced mobility. You might be wearing tons of armour, but you’re not a hell of a lot safer if you can’t move fast. I think it was your comment about the heat that threw everybody off.
The thing is, if that armor is ceramic, and if they’re in a hot environment, then we’re not just talking about a bit of discomfort. Those poor bastards would be literally cooking. They’d probably be passing out from heatstroke, too, which isn’t very safe. They should absolutely have the choice, but I can see why some guys would opt out.
It just seems ridiculous, though, in this day and age, that nothing better than this has been developed.
ppGaz
What an asshole. Really.
I’m not comparing the discomfort. I’m pointing out that given a choice, I think it’s reasonable to expect that many if not most if not all experienced persons are going to take the protection in spite of the discomfort …
In other words, Stormy’s remark is just bullshit, and it wouldn’t kill you to say so rather than taking a cheap shot at me.
I live in the fucking Arizona desert. You think I am not familiar with the effects of 115 degree weather? I can teach a course on desert survival, which very few people from climes such as WV would understand unless they have been out there in the 115 degree heat all day, which I have, many times.
Krista
Paddy – he’s annoyed ’cause you’ve been busting his chops on almost every thread for the last few weeks. He’s admitted he’s disgusted with Bush and regrets his vote, and would love to vote Democratic if he could get behind the candidate and his/her message.
Why not give him a respite from the badgering? Just for one day.
John Cole
I was in the Persian Gulf, in the summer, in an M1A1 Abrams. It would get to 140 degrees inside, and you had to wear gloves outside otherwise you would get burned on the metal tools. It is fucking hot.
I also did patrols, in a Kevlar helmet, humping a .203, full lbe, the body armor available at the time, my ammo, water, etc. I would rather have been in the fucking 140 degree tank.
Comparing the actions of a few cops knocking in a few doors on a drug raid and the heavy shit soldiers hump around for sustained periods is idiotic.
ppGaz
Paddy is annoying, no doubt about it. I’m annoying, and Paddy annoys me on a regular basis.
But so what? We don’t hammer on Stormy or Darrell, so why hammer on the Paddy-O’? Because we don’t agree with his views? Because he has a quick trigger on the talking points from the latest Kos hyperventilation?
He ain’t that bad. How he keeps up the volume, I don’t know, but he ain’t that bad. Besides, he’s arguing against what may turn out to be the worst government in American history. It’s not like there’s nothing to complaing about …..
John Cole
Hunh? They get hammered on constantly.
ppGaz
Sure, and if you run into someone making that comparison in the spirit of your argument, be sure and let them know that.
I can keep this up all day: The cop was right, the discomfort has to be measured against the risk. That’s not a comparison of the discomfort, it’s a recognition of the risk and the cost of abating it.
And, Stormy was full of shit. Which was my point, and I was right, and I’m still right.
ppGaz
Ahem. By us. The peonatariat.
Paddy O'Shea
Krista: I just don’t believe him. On the one hand he claims to want to distance himself from this outrageous administration, but when the issues become particularly acute he straps on the spiked boots and jumps down hard on anyone who gets too close to the real truth about this war, or anything else that threatens these odious people.
This debate over body armor is a perfect example. Bush, Rummy, and the rest of the crooks sent our guys to battle dangerously underequipped and with no real plan or permanent rationale for being there. The body armor issue is big right now because of the New York Times expose. And who leaps to the side of these people in this particularly dire moment? John Cole. His defense? It’s hot there.
I have a strong disliking for hypocrisy, and Cole just reeks of it.
John Cole
The debate over body armor is a perfect example of one thing- your willingness to dishonestly portray everything in a light that best fits your narrative.
My ‘defense,’ is not that it was hot, but that heat and a number of other things need to be taken into consideration. As well as mobility. As well as the fact that this is a new system replacing the old body armor and is not widely available yet.
You know, in a couple years, there will be a new weapon system, a new body armor in the works. Maybe you can sieze upon that new system as proof that Bush went to war in 2003 without doing everything for the soldiers?
I am in no way apologizing or defending situations in which an MTOE lists that soldiers are supposed to have certain things- like machine guns, or body armor- and don’t. But attacking the Pentagon/Rumsfeld/whoever because every soldier does not have the latest new armor, specifically armor that is being developed as a war is being fought, and then misrepresenting the results of a study to further launch attacks, is disingenuous and clearly just designd to score political points, whatever that may be.
ppGaz
Isn’t it more likely that he is put off by excesses of rhetoric no matter where they come from?
I use excessive rhetoric on purpose, with malice aforethought and for a specific purpose. Which only means, I can back away from it on a moment’s notice because I am seldom invested in the rhetoric itself. It’s the purpose I care about, not the language.
My main complaint around here is that the Stormies and Darrells are free to wallpaper the room with nonsense but lefties appear to be held to a higher standard. Our arguments not only have be sensical, they have to be eloquent too. Or something.
Paddy O'Shea
John: Misrepresenting the results, John? Are we discussing the finer points of military jargon here? Or the human lives that have been thrown away in this futile and tragic adventure?
The devil truly is in the details, and that is where we always seem to find you as well.
ppGaz
Okay, I’ll take that bait. When you are out here in the 115 degree heat looking at a government that appears to be run by insane monkeys, how else do you react other than by trying to score political points?
I mean, if making a great spaghetti sauce were the answer, then I’d have run them out by now. My sauce rocks. But alas, all my sauce seems to have no effect on them. So aren’t I left with YELLING MY DAMNED HEAD OFF??
Paddy O'Shea
Here’s a question: Shi’ite Islamist Iran doesn’t support the Sunni insurgents, and neither do their newly elected puppets in the Iraqi parliament.
So why are we making these incredible sacrifices killing the insurgents? Wouldn’t we be better off letting these fine people fight each other?
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/freeper.jpg
Andrew
John Cole:
They’re not heavy plates. The modern ceramic inserts are relatively light, but the point is relative weight: increasing the converage would have increased vest weight only a small amount.
However, that isn’t the real scandal. This is:
From DefenseWatch
And this goes on to say how the criminals running Point Blank made off with millions while the company went out of business and sold off its assets to others. War profiteering at its ugliest: there is a direct link between the deaths of our soldiers and millions in profits.
Even worse, design and manufacturing issues have continued to be problems and the corrupt military acquisition system seems incapable of reform. And the top brass is lying to soldiers about the quality of deployed armor, which still has defects, not just fitment issues.
whatsleft
Well, there’s the problem Andrew. They were manufactured under CLINTON’S watch, and the flaw was found by Sainted King George.
This should straighten out the whole situation for everyone.
/end snark.
not 'murikan
and keep in mind the terrists use 60+ years old weapons and cotton armour:
kar 98>
http://forum.axishistory.com/files/rdjmnaziproofstamp_114.jpg
Stg44>
http://forum.axishistory.com/files/2004-05-19t125514z_01_bag16d_rtridsp_2_iraq_149.jpg
maybe Mr.Cole is onto something about heat and armour
John Cole
Andrew- If this is merely a case of contractors failing to provide whjat they are contractually obligated to provide, I say throw the damned books at them.
Andrew
John Cole:
It is most certainly the case that the contractors ailed to provide what they were contracted to provide.
However, it is most certainly not MERELY that. The quality and design issues for these vests have been known for YEARS, but have been covered up by the military.
A few pertinent facts:
1) The vest were not widely issued and deployed until 2003 The Clinton military is certainly responsible for the initial half-assed design problems, but they were not combat tested until 2001.
2) Almost every one of the 2000+ soldiers killed in Iraq were wearing the Interceptor type body armor, so there is a fairly large sample group, to put it in cruelly statistical terms.
3) Better gear exists:
… but we aren’t providing it. (same DefenseWatch article)
4) The military is actively seeking replacement body armor systems for the Interceptor system.
I think that the bottom line point is that the military simply did not provide the best available protection to our soldiers. They still haven’t, 2 years later. This is neither new, nor surprising.
Paddy O'Shea
Raw Story has a report up that details the hard work – so to speak – that Bush aides are engaged in attempting find, identify and find explanations for all photos of the President with Jack Abramoff. The reason for the urgency is obvious, and think of the fun people will have with Scotty “The President does not know him, nor does the President recall ever meeting him” McClellan once these photos of the 2 biggest crooks in America right now are seen yukking it up back when times were good and love was all around hit the news.
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Bush_trying_to_round_up_all_0108.html
Pooh
Seriously fellas, John has a point on the protection vs. mobility tradeoff (and yes, the heat plays a part in the mobility thing, you need more water, get fatigued faster, etc.). The best way not to get dead is not to get shot. (Of course the best way not to get shot is to not be in Iraq, but that’s a different discussion, methinks.)
That was actualy my first thought on reading the initial story, that we had no baseline for comparison.
Now the issue that we aren’t rocking the best gear available, that’s borderline unconscionable.
And Paddy has joined Darrell in my Bal-Jui killfile…
demimondian
It makes my day when something I had a small role in creating actually gets used.
(Although Bal-Jui makes me think the Mendelssohn oratorio _Elijah_.)
Pooh
You’re my boy, Blue.
Stormy70
Pooh, you make sense today.
I am afraid, don’t do it again.
moflicky
Just one comment on body armor.
It seems to me that it’s not a soldier’s duty to complain about wearing body armor nor to complain they aren’t wearing body armor. John’s long comment on trade-offs is exactly correct, and the decision of whether to make those trade-offs is above the average soldier’s paygrade.
When in theatre, by tradition and necessity, a soldier’s duty is to be a small part of an effective and violent force at the will and whim of his commanding officers. If those officers feel they will be a more effective force with more body armor, they will make that decision.
I understand the desire to want to protect the troops, and I don’t question the motives of those who do. But this is not about feelings, it’s about the military.
That may sound callous, it may sound inhuman, but where the military – any military – is concerned, throughout history this has always been so, and it will always be so.
moflicky
not in spirit, maybe. but in practice, absolutely – including their friends in syria.
just because the iranians are shia has no effect on their interest in preventing a representitave democracy next door. destablizing the status quo is very much what they want, and if that means aiding the sunni insurgency, they’ll make that little sacrifice.
Pooh
Stormy, I make sense everyday, you just happen to agree today.
ppGaz
Proving that even a stopped clock can be right, if you happen to glance at it at just the right moment.
Hell, the clock doesn’t even have to have a clockworks. It just needs a face and two hands stuck to it.
Hell, the clock might not have run for ten years ….
Okay, you get the idea.
Paddy O'Shea
moflicky: When the Shia of Iraq just won an election that had precious little to do with democracy outside of the fact that people voted, why whould the Shia of Iran side with Sunnis of Iraq?
As far as Tehran goes they figure they aleady have this thing won. Quell the insurgency (with -ironically- our help), then U.S. troops leave, and the ball game is all theirs. The desire of a united Shi’ite has been Tehran’s dream ever since the fall of the Shah. And certainly the leader of the Shia of Iraq, Grand Ayatollah Ali al Sistani, Iranian born and educated, and always an ally to his spiritual brethren across the border, is hardly going to enforce our will in any of these matters.
Here it is, straight from the horse’s mouth:
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=5006
Do you ever attempt to think things through? Is it conceivable to you that the most salient result of the Bush admin’s disastrous policy in Iraq has actually been the strengthening of our enemies in Iran?
On a much sadder note (not that Moflicky’s ignorance isn’t sad, mind you): Bye Pooh! I’ll miss the easy indignity and relentless search for offense. Which whetehr the intent was there or not, you always seemed to be able to find what you were looking for.
RonB
Funnily enough, that ceramic plate armor is actually lighter than what we were first given, and leagues more protective than the flak vest we were initially sent with. I don’t know about the drapes and such, but I just wanted to mention that this stuff is ultra light and it isnt a case of it being to heavy so much as it is cumbersome and restrictive.
Evilbeard
Paddy said,
Somehow you forgot to mention that Ali-Sistani was exiled from Iran for speaking out against Khomeni-ism and is pro-secular government.
moflicky
beard, that would be too inconvenient to paddy’s worldview, so he of course dismisses it out of hand. too many facts confuses him.
moflicky
paddy, gosh, you’re right! of course iran claims victory.
Funny, though. throughout that official iranian propagandist rant, I can distinguish very little that is different from the official democratic position on iraq.
is that a coincidence, or what!
Paddy O'Shea
WeasleBeard – Even the most rudimentary Google search shows that Ali al Sistani left Iran way before Khomeni came to power.
And besides, even if the shit you just pulled out of your Guckert box was true, wouldn’t it be a little much to spend half a trillion dollars plus the lives and health of thousands of American service people on the word a Shi’ite fundamentalist Grand Ayatollah? Seems like an idiot’s gamble to me. Which probably explains its appeal to Bush.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_al-Sistani
moflicky – Go ahead and try it. Familiar with the concept of the search engine? My favorite is called G-O-O-G-L-E. Very popular. It allows you to check up on the claims of others and see whether or not they know what they are talking about.
Of course, since you’ve most likely never even heard of any of the main players in Iraq before, it will be hard for you to do much fact checking. And then there is the spelling thing. Lord knows what a problem that is for you.
Paddy O'Shea
moflicky – Let’s see if we can’t bring you along a little bit. This one is from the San Francisco Chronicle. The reasoning in this article is a little on the complex side, so maybe you should make sure you’re up for this. Take a nap first if you need it.
Iran’s Victory Revealed In Iraq Election
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/12/21/EDGU6GAM691.DTL
gswift
There’s some options already. A company called Pinnacle is already offering flexible armor that will stop a steel core (armor piercing) 7.62 round. My understanding is that they use small overlapping ceramic discs, much like reptile scales, hence the name “Dragon Skin”
A big part of the whole mobility issue is the rigidity and size of the current ceramic inserts. Even though the weight of the ceramics continues to come down, large rigid plates placed in the front and back of the vests just aren’t conducive to normal torso movement. Another big advantage of the scale armor is that you get much more area covered.
The downside is that it’s not the current standard, although there’s guys buying it privately when they deploy. It’s also currently pretty pricey, depending on the model, something like $3-5k.
scs
John, there is no use for you to argue with Paddy. I am pretty sure he is a DougJ creation. That is the “personality” he uses to start stuff with you. And some of the ones defending Paddy are his alter “nicer” egos. I fell into that trap with MikeS. Don’t do the same.
JohnTheLibertarian
Mo,
perhaps you can ask where this rather rabid blogger gets this “half a trillion” he/she throws around so liberally. I can’t find anything remotely close to that. Anywhere. Even when I use his/her google magic trick. Perhaps we can find evidence of this in sources of merit, rather than the NYT and SF Chronicle left-wing rags he/she repeatedly solicits. What next, al Jazeera?
MAX HATS
Paddy, two honest questions:
1) How old are you? And,
2) Do you have any hobbies or friends outside the internet?
MAX HATS
Run RepublicoLogic
Fact F
Suspicion S
Validity V
V(F) DEFINED AS F/S
NYTIMES CLAIMS FACT F NOT SUPPORTED BY SUSPICION S (S=0)
ERROR
ERROR
ERROR
ERROR REPORT: LEFT WING BIAS LEFT WING RAG ERROR BLLLLBBBBLLLLGFFFF
WOULD YOU LIKE TO ABORT (babies)? Y/N
Pooh
Max, you are l337…
MAX HATS
I’m sorry everyone. Reading that again, it is terrible. It seemed kind of funny at the time but mistakes, they do happen.
Bruce Moomaw
Sistani may be anti-Iranian, but the question is how much control he even has over the Shiite community anymore, given al-Sadr’s rapidly rising influence (and guns). In any case, if an Iraqi civil war gets underway (as is highly likely), the Shiites are going to take their allies where they can find them. Kinda like the US during WW II and the Cold War (or Mandela during the fight for South African democracy).
In any case, whether or not Iran becomes top dog in Iraqi politics, they are going to come out of this war as major gainers for one simple reason: it’s prevented the US from doing anything effective to keep them from getting the Bomb. And that, I imagine, is what historians (if there are any historians after 2050) will remember the Iraq War for.
As for the body armor debate: why the hell not supply it and let the troops themselves decide how much they wnt to wear in a particular situation? As it is, they haven’t been given that choice — any more than they’ve been given properly armored vehicles, thanks to Rummy’s obsession with treating them the way the mad doctors in those Universal movies treated their experimental subjects.
moflicky
paddy, paddy, paddy. been there. what’s your point?
ah, thanks for proving my point. As I said, Iran’s position on Iraq is indistinguisbable from the democrats in this country.
funny, last I heard the sunnis were in intense negotiations with the kurds to counter the shia plurality. sounds like a good thing to me. but i’m sure you didn’t hear about that. again, it’s inconvenient to your worldview, so it’s off your radar.
You say al-Sistani is in league with Iran, yet I can’t find anything even remotely suggesting that is the case, except for a few throwaway lines in opinion pieces. Most of what I’ve read about him tells me he’s long been critical of Iran – that their clergy has no business running the country.
In fact, he’s been the biggest iraqi religious supporter of the coalition, he’s helped us with Sadr’s bunch on a number of occasions, and has been very big in getting the democratic process rolling there.
perhaps you could find me a reliable source for that refutes this?
There are, i’m sure, several shia militias who are being supported by Iran, but the insurgency in general has been supported by them since the beginning. Iran has no interest in seeing a real and fair democracy next door.
unless you’re in the Sean Penn school of thought that Iran has a free and fair democracy.
yeah, that must be it.
moflicky
Bruce,
If we had not invaded iraq, what exactly could we do differently in Iran? be specific, because this is important.
The only thing our presense did was to make it tougher to invade Iran. you’re not suggesting we should do that are you?
If we were of the mind to use force to make Iran behave, believe me – we could shock and awe them with no problem right now.
ever hear of the awesome force of a carrier battle group?
trust me, were it deemed necessary, we could trash every military asset we know about in Iran in only a few weeks, and with little or no real effort.
So, again I ask, what is it about our presense in iraq that makes it impossible to apply pressure on Iran?
and where is the rest of the world in this? Oh yeah, france and russia are busy trying to sell them nuclear technology much like Clinton did in his bonehead move to supply faulty but easily corrected plans back in 2000.
moflicky
John,
the actual dollar amount doesn’t mean anything to him. Even if it were a dollar, if bush spent it, it was too much.
And btw MAX, geekspeak may be fun in the circles you run in, but it’s not a substitution for reasoned thought or opinion.
Paddy O'Shea
John the Libertarian:
Google “Iraq + half a trillion dollars”
Pages of articles. Interesting insight. Whole new worlds of thought and perspective for you to ponder and revel in.
Welcome to the new millenia, John. Where even so common an individual as yourself can seek enlightenment and rise above the humble gifts God so obviously challenged you with.
Paddy O'Shea
nodicky – Your claim that the Kurds and Sunnis are now engaged in “intense negotiations” designed to “counter the Sunni plurality” does not seem to have any basis in reality judging by a Google search. I know the whole cite thing is alien to you, but perhaps you could supply a couple of them? I’m sure you do not want to leave the impression here that you merely pulled that whopper out of your endlessly provident ass.
Given the animosity between the Kurds and Sunnis over some of the things Saddam is suspected of (genocidal mass gassings being among the more widely discussed), such an alliance does seem a bit farfetched. But perhaps you can prove otherwise.
Paddy O'Shea
“As I said, Iran’s position on Iraq is indistinguishable from the democrats in this country.”
You lie so effortlessly, Mo. Are you a meth addict?
moflicky
I heard it on NPR – you know, they’re an integral cog in the vast right wing media conspiracy.
but try googling (news side) ‘sunni kurd alliance’ and if you’d read past the first paragraph of any of the half a dozen articles (yes, that would require you to read an article for more than the headline) you would see it.
The situation is a whole lot more complicated than either one of us can boil down to a comment in a blog.
I only see you cite polls and opinion pieces, then tell everyone else to google it themselves.
have at it bucky.
btw, nodicky is much less offensive than the original meaning of moflicky, but if your grade school playground name calling antics make you feel more like a man, I’m happy for you. even though it just exposes you for the mental juvenile you are.
moflicky
such a simpleton.
not all sunnis are saddam loyalists, least of all the ones participating in the government.
what’s going on is called negotiation and coalition building. the shia, sunni and kurds currently in negotiations are all at least nominally secular and they want to keep SCIRI from dominating the government. you know, SCIRI, they’re the ones Iran backs, who are not endorsed by al-sistani.
never mind. you’re not interested in the details, as it would upset your simple answers.
moflicky
gosh, I just caught this quote.
you’re willing to give saddam the benefit of the doubt whether he did or did not murder hundreds of thousands of his own people, when the mass graves are there for all to see, yet in every word you’ve written on the subject, you have already tried, convicted and sentenced gwb, tom delay, and pretty much every other republican in office.
why do you reserve such a ‘innocent until proven guilty’ attitude for saddam, yet not for a duly elected US president? that, I think more than anything proves where your head is at.
but don’t, by any means, question your patriotism. that wouldn’t be fair.
moflicky
Such a steel trap mind. I stand in awe of your debating skills.
Paddy O'Shea
Moflicky: “I heard it on NPR..”
Translation: He has no cite.
Interpretation: He can’t back up his claim.
Conclusion: He must be lying.
Paddy O'Shea
Moflicky: “You’re willing to give Saddam the benefit of the doubt…”
You lie so effortlessly, Mo. Are you a meth addict?
moflicky
all, pulled directly from paddy’s butt, since he didn’t follow his own advice and google for the stories.
conclusion? paddy is no longer worth reading or replying to, since he can’t even be intellectually honest with himself.
John’s right. you’re a troll.
Paddy O'Shea
I just took your advice and Googled “sunni kurd alliance” and nothing backing your claim came up.
Go ahead, prove me wrong. One cite.
Liar.
Paddy O'Shea
Poor Pinocchio Mo. So lost in Limbaugh La La Land that he can no longer distiguish fact from fiction.
I wonder what his next extraterrestrial claim will be.
The Iraqi Parliament will show its gratitude to the American people by selecting a Republican Presdient?
moflicky
For those who are willing to read past the headline of any story (paddy obviously isn’t).
here,
here,
here:http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1463898
and here: http://web.krg.org/articles/article_print.asp?ArticleNr=8492
(copy and paste: link tags wouldn’t work for these two urls, at least in the preview).
so, in conclusion, paddy is a proven congenital liar or an idiot who can’t read past the headline of a story.
Slide
moflicky beats his chest and proclaims:
No problem? The same thinking that said we could overthrow Saddam with NO PROBLEM. We can disarm Iraq with NO PROBLEM. We can democratize the middle east with NO PROBLEM.
Moron.. there are always consequences for one’s actions. Can we technically send a shit load of munitians into Iran? Of course. But if you think that would be “problem free” you are even more naive than the morons that were stating that invading Iraq would be a “cakewalk” or that it should last no more than six months.
Yep, pretty awesome. But not awesome enough to defeat a few “dead enders” in Iraq apparently, nor was it awesome enough to defeat some enemy in sandals and black pajamas in Viet Nam. You guys are so impressed with our military capability you fail to see the bigger picture. In a n insurgency all that technical superiority is near useless. Do you EVER learn from lessons?
Without consequence? Iran will just sit around while this happens? they won’t retaliate with their very substantial military might against Israel perhaps? God save us from the chromosome challenged right wing armchair generals that think force is the answer to all our problems.
moflicky
Slide: I won’t even quote a word of what you’re saying, because none of them have a bit to do with that particular discussion.
I was not advocating an Iranian invasion, or bombing them into the stone age. I was assuming that was what bruce was doing by saying our being in Iraq has left us unable to apply pressure on Iran, which he feels is the more important issue.
maybe you’d like to field that question, instead of putting words in my mouth.
Moron you say? try reading and understanding the context of the question before replying. It will do wonders to keep you from looking like one.
everyone here is really good at throwing names around when they don’t like what someone has to say. again, I stand in awe of the debating skills displayed here.
Paddy O'Shea
Pinocchio Mo: The first cite deals with the yesterday’s helicopter crash, and has absolutely nothing to do with your claim that Kurds and Sunnis are “feverishly negotiating” to lock the pro-Tehran Shia Islamists (who now control the govt in Baghdad) out of power.
The second article deals with Sunni Islamists throwing their lot in with Shia Islamists and their longtime allies the Kurds in order to freeze the Sunni secularists (and the other secular parties that we supported) out of power.
Something that actually did happen, thus the parlous political situation we find ourselves in regarding Iraq. We now find ourselves fighting for a govt that wants us to leave, and all so they can align themselves with the nuclear armed pro-terrorist state in Iran.
In other words the results of the recent elections in Iraq that we sacrificed so very much to bring around resulted in an anti-American govt.
You need to work on the old reading comprehension thing, Pinocchio Mo. Either that or seek help.
moflicky
paddy you silly old troll. I told you that you must not have read past the first paragraph of any of the stories I cited, and you go right ahead and prove it for me.
It’s not my fault you’re an idiot. From the first link that you said didn’t say a thing about it:
uh, isn’t this what I said. unlike the words you put in my mouth, I said it was to counter the shia plurality, not to lock them out, which is really impossible since, you know, because of the whole meaning of the word “plurality”. but then, I don’t have to tell you that.
oh yeah, I guess I do. you don’t seem to understand much without it being spelled out for you.
of course, all of this is bad news for your side.
do you actually read, or do you just think I say things I didn’t say? sounds like you’ve got voices in your head, and you need help.
JohnTheLibertarian
Please substantiate with evidence. Please refrain from anecdotal evidence.
Please substantiate with evidence. There are two assertions of fact here, one that the Iraqi government is trying to align itself with Iran, and two, that Iran is nuclear armed. Please refrain from anecdotal evidence.
Please substantiate with evidence. Please refrain from anecdotal evidence.
JohnTheLibertarian
Funniest thing when I tried the Google magic trick. It came up with dozens of articles! I was stunned and amazed. Isn’t technology wondrous? Now that I’ve joined the new millennia, perhaps said blogger might indulge me with a tool of the last millennia: critical thinking and analysis. For none of the articles claimed we had yet spent that amount, or had come close to it. Only that it had been asked for and appropriated. Furthermore, using this past-millennium tool of critical insight, one might very well conclude that such money has been appropriated for Iraq, Afghanistan and the war on terror, as well as numerous military pet projects and bad technology investments that have nothing to do with these three general categories.
That is, if said person were discerning enough to read past the headlines and into the body of the text.
To wit: Steven Kosiak, an analyst at the private Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, called the figures cited by lawmakers extraordinary but not inconceivable.
“The number is so high,” he said, “that it suggests that there’s a significant amount of money in there for costs not directly related to the cost of military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.”
Ah, but I have discerned the real problem here. At first I had imagined the problem was that said blogger was on the early side of mid-twenties, as ascertained from the telltale speed at which he/she resorts to insult anyone whom he/she disagrees with. This tactic seldom adds to one’s persuasiveness, unfortunately. In fact, it typically backfires. But the real problem, I have discovered, is that the blogger “Paddy” is a forward-thinker to the extent that he/she sees into the future to imagined events, and then asserts those visions as if it were true at the present moment. Phrases such as “half trillion” spent, when it has only been appropriated, or “nuclear armed Iran” when Iran is still in the phases of enriching uranium… the problem is said blogger is a visionary, and, like most visionaries, angry and frustrated for being misunderstood.
Paddy O'Shea
Well then Johnny Lib, you lard-headed ass, here’s an article even you might understand.
That is if you can shut up long enough to read it.
Cost of Iraq War Could Top 2 Trillion
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060110/ts_nm/iraq_cost_dc
Paddy O'Shea
Pinocchio Mo: So the results of these “feverish negotiations” between the Sunnis and Kurds that you’ve provided so much irrefutable evidence for, have they actually worked? Are the Shiite Islamists being thrown out out of power in Iraq? Is Sistani being flogged through the streets of Baghdad?
And why hasn’t this matter been discussed more in the media? A couple of old and vague articles is it for so remarkable a breakthrough? Seems like it would be a tremendous development for an administration that sure seems to need it.
moflicky
cow paddy,
(hahahahahaha! gosh, that WAS fun! it reminds me of kindygarten! I’m giddy with the feeling of intellectual superiority!)
You are simply out of control stupid aren’t you. not only didn’t I aver or predict any of the above, I’ve factually demonstrated that Sistani hasn’t endorsed any of the islamic fundamentalist parties in iraq.
But what’s really interesting is that in all that i’d written, you latched, leach-like, to a single throwaway line – which i’ve demonstrated time and again to be true – to brow beat me with.
not a single intelligent word on anything else I’ve said.
you are a gem. one for the books. they could do a whole semester on you in college psychology class.
moflicky
paddy,
thanks for playing, but you’re no longer a challenge. you’re fired.