Halliburton in the news:
Troops and civilians at a U.S. military base in Iraq were exposed to contaminated water last year, and employees for the responsible contractor, Halliburton Co., could not get their company to inform camp residents, according to interviews and internal company documents.
Halliburton, the company formerly headed by Vice President Cheney, disputes the allegations about water problems at Camp Junction City, in Ramadi, even though they were made by its own employees and documented in company e-mails.
“We exposed a base camp population (military and civilian) to a water source that was not treated,” said a July 15, 2005, memo written by William Granger, the official for Halliburton’s KBR subsidiary who was in charge of water quality in Iraq and Kuwait.
For whatever reason, this is not being investigated, but it should be.
As a side note, the press continues to engage in something that infuriates me– every time Halliburton is alleged to have done some wrong doing, it is immediately tied in with Cheney, who has not worked for them for 6 years. When Halliburton is cleared of wrongdoing, guess whose name is not mentioned?
Steve
Halliburton gets contract after contract after contract from this administration, but yeah, Cheney has a new job now, so it must be just a coincidence. How dare anyone bring it up.
CaseyL
Cheney didn’t just “work for them,” he was the freaking CEO from 1995 – 2000. H’mmm… what job did he have after 2000? Oh, yeah: Vice President.
So, yeah, I’m sure you’re correct to imply that Cheney’s being Halliburton’s CEO immediately before he picked himself to be Bush’s Veep, and Cheney’s still having 433,000 stock options, and still receiving about $150,000 a year from Halliburton – are completely and totally irrelevant to any governmental work Halliburton gets, and completely irrelevant to how much (if any) oversight there is of that work, and completely irrelevant to whether Halliburton can get away with embezzlement, kickbacks, and giving contaminated water to US soldiers.
…And I’m Marie of Romania.
Marcus Wellby
Yeah, for whatever reason — wonder what that reason could be? Hmmm, I will have to think about that one for a while…
I guess Cheney’s Halliburton stock options that rose 3281% last year don’t play into any of this? Come on, John.
DougJ
Why is that when Dick Cheney leads us into a war that makes his old friends at Halliburton rich, it’s a big news, but when Harry Belafonte calls Bush a terrorist, no one seems to care that much? Talk about a double standard. Oh, the hypocrisy of the librul MSM.
Otto Man
What they said.
Paddy O'Shea
Heaven forfend that Dick Cheney should ever be forced to take some of the responsibility for the failures of this administration. How shocking to think that anyone in this administration should be forced to take responsibility for anything, much less the poisoning of our troops by this especially favored outfit.
Because he no longer works for Halliburton is in no way a reason to absolve Cheney of the blame for poisoning our troops. The responsibility lies with those who hired them. Which, of course, are the same people who will not fire this lousy outfit no matter what they do.
Ask yourself these questions:
1) Who hired Halliburton?
2) Is the CIC responsible for the well-being of the troops?
3) Should a company hired by this administration to see to the needs of our troops poison them with bad water, who is responsible?
4) Why haven’t they been immediately fired?
In the Bush administration responsibility is a greased pig that never seems to get caught.
With this kind of garbage going on, is it any wonder that Bush’s approval ratings are back to their historic lows?
ARG: Bush Approval Rating falls to 36%
http://americanresearchgroup.com/
Shalimar
If Congress wasted time investigating every little illegal and/or immoral thing Halliburton does, the entire legislative branch would grind to a halt.
Krista
HAS Halliburton been officially cleared of the (many) wrongdoings of which it’s been accused, or have the accusations just sort of faded into obscurity without being properly investigated? I was under the impression that it was the latter, but feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
Krista
And this water thing absolutely has to be investigated. This is shameful – those troops and civilians are risking getting their asses shot off for a war of dubious motive, and they can’t even be sent clean water?
neil
When Halliburton is cleared of wrongdoing, guess whose name is not mentioned?
It’s just ingratitude, plain and simple.
yet another jeff
Damn, Krista beat me to it…I was wondering what things were officially cleared. I just don’t recall seeing any news on those lines.
If the armed forces were still allowed to provide their own water, instead of it being “privatized”, would this sort of thing happen?
AkaDad
Don’t you all know, that you go to war with the water you have, not the water you want…
KC
And John, why isn’t Halliburton being investigated?
Really though, I don’t think the company is the monster the left has made it out to be (there’s an excellent Frontline on contracting in Iraq that dispells a lot of myths). On the other hand, I don’t think its hands are clean either. Ultimately, like all be corporations, it makes an admixture of bad and good decisions.
stickler
Halliburton hasn’t been “cleared” of anything because there haven’t been any investigations worthy of the name. No investigation = no charges = no “clearing” of charges.
Now, why on earth is Halliburton immune from investigation? Who could possibly be responsible for this?
(“Responsible?” Not a word used much by today’s GOP.)
DougJ
Hey, at least he had a plan to increase the price of his Halliburton stock. Where’s the Democrats’ plan to increase the price of Halliburton stock?
KC
Wait, to some extent I take my post above back. It really does seem like something fishy is going on.
Doug
Next the DemoncRATS will be calling for more laws governing the quality of water provided to our troops. Probably want a tax increase to pay for enforcement too.
Poor, poor Vice President Cheney. Why not just mention in every story that his daughter is a lesbian too.
Krista
Oh well, don’t worry about the troops John. If Stephen Harper gets elected to a majority government, he’ll just hand over all of our clean water to your country, and you can send it to the troops.
Mac Buckets
LOLOLOL! Just when you thought the loonies had had acquired half a hinge… Thanks for making my morning, POS.
neil
I take back my Cheney gag from upthread to make a serious point. The problem with privatization on a scale as ludicrous as the DoD has been implementing is that for all reasonable purposes, Halliburton _is_ a government agency. I mean, they don’t operate under all the same rules that a government agency does, which should make them more efficient. But the important thing is that when things are good for Halliburton, they’re good for the government, and also when things are bad for Halliburton they’re bad for the government.
Think about it. Let’s suppose Halliburton does some terrible thing wrong, and they’re guilty, to an extent to which the civil penalty would tear them apart. It’s in the government’s undeniable interest to bail them out, because while they are ‘private’ they are not replaceable. There aren’t any other companies out there that can do what they do, at the magnitude they do it at.
All this is to say that when the government protects Halliburton it’s not because they are protecting their buddies — they’re protecting their legitimate interests. It’s an inevitable consequence of privatizing things that should not be privatized, and it means that the supposed savings are actually offset later on.
Jim Allen
“If Congress wasted time investigating every little illegal and/or immoral thing Halliburton does, the entire legislative branch would grind to a halt.”
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
Anderson
Cole, if you good-naturedly selected a Lame Remark of the Month from your posts, your Cheney bit above would be the easy winner for January 2006.
And congrats on the Steelers’ win–I was pulling for them partly as underdogs, partly due to your advocacy. And now I’m *certainly* rooting for them in the Super Bowl. (Seattle is the last known whereabouts of a certain evil ex …)
Richard Bottoms
[Little submit error, so sorry if this is a duplicate]
It was a typo. I was tired. Pretty standard Netiquette to give typos a pass, but no biggie.
Sure. rbottoms – at -gmail.com
Richard Bottoms
Dammit.
Mac Buckets
More of the old, silly Halliburton tripe, I see.
As Harvard prof and Clinton’s procurement official (who gave — GASP! — no-bid contracts to Halliburton) said regarding the contracts:
“Between improbable and utterly absurd” will make most of you leftians feel right at home, I realize. Paddy, that’s your cue…
LOLOLOL! Just when you thought the loonies had had acquired half a hinge… Thanks for making my morning, POS.
Ancient Purple
Quite frankly, I am more than happy to put any millstone around Cheney’s neck that I can find. Truly, that ghoul is the most unsympathetic man in the executive branch.
He was one of four congressmen who voted against the Meals on Wheels program.
Meals. On. Wheels.
What a humanitarian.
Davebo
Hard to say since despite dozens of investigations Halliburton has yet to be cleared of any wrong doing.
salvage
I’ve noticed that too.
But I like it because people should know that the second biggest winner in Iraq, other than Iran, has a buddy in the White House.
Is it entirely fair? No, not really but it’s hard to muster much sympathy when it comes to the media being inequitable to this administration.
Steve
I like how Mac trucks out a quote that says “these allegations are absurd” without even saying what allegation he is responding to. Basically, everything anyone might ever want to allege about Halliburton is totally untrue, and he has a quote to back him up on this.
Davebo
Why mention Dick Cheney in relation to Halliburton?
Well, he’s rarely mentionend in stories regarding Halliburton’s oil services companies.
Mainly just in regard to KBR’s DOD contracting.
Could it be because
Dick Cheney is soley responsible for the military outsourcing so much to Halliburton?
Of course not until he had Halliburton conduct a study that showed what a swell idea it would all be.
jg
C’mon people. Haliburton is the only company big enough to handle this task. I don’t know how thats relevant but it is a right wing talking point so it MUST be valid. Also Cheney doesn’t work for them anymore and Clinton did it too.
Faux News
Post. Of. The. Day.
I heart you DougJ.
Notice how John Cole flees the thread whenever you post one of your brilliant insights. Dare I say what is on so many BJ posters’ minds? You, DougJ, should have your OWN blog!
Davebo
Look Mac Buckets, we all know you aren’t the sharpest bowling ball on the rack and all…
But I’d wager even you could turn a meager profit by say, charging $27.5 million for shipping $82,000 worth of propane from Kuwaitt to Iraq.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-03-14-pentagon-halliburton_x.htm
I wouldn’t use the term “illogical” myself.
What do ya think Mac? Would “ass rape” be more appropriate?
Paddy O'Shea
Mac Nuggets: So who is responsible for supplying our troops contaminated water in Iraq?
1) Cheney? No, he doesn’t work there any more.
2) Bush? C’mon! He doesn’t even know what day it is.
3) Halliburton? No, they are they only company in the world that can handle the extraordinary demands of working in Iraq.
The right has created a responsibility-free universe for the Bush gang to work in.
Can it be that nobody will be held responsible for this?
Krista
Why should he have his own, when he has already subverted and taken over the blogs of so many others?
Pat R
To paraphrase the Gut-Man, the willingness to believe that Cheney/Halliburton are behind everything wrong in the world reflects a mental illness found among the Loony Left that’s similar to paranoid schizophrenia. People who believe in conspiracies are generally unstable and athiestic – obvious truth scares them, and they find comfort in the idea of plotting, secret societies, since they find no joy in religion (or life in general). This way of thinking also feeds the ego: YOU ALONE can see the conspiracy, while others cannot. As we often see in the comments left here, the Left is like a pig in shit when in comes to conspiracies – for it gives them the pleasure of thinking the rest of America is asleep, while only they know the truth. They employ this thinking on all fronts – from the New Orleans hurricane (they can see it’s all about race – but we cannot) to Iraq (it’s a Cheney/Halliburton cabal).
Mike S
Does this congress investigate anything other than steroids?
Pooh
John,
I’m usually the one who jumps in when the far lefties jump on your head. But give me a fucking break. They are literally feeding shit to our troops, the GoP prevents an investigation, and you are worried about the WaPo mentioning that ohbytheway the vice President used to run the company that after not bidding for the contract decided to see how Montezuma’s Revenge mixes with MREs.
This is almost dumb enough to make me pick the Steelers to win the SB out of spite. (My last several high-profile public picks? Not so much…)
Paddy O'Shea
Pat R: Halliburtin fed our troops contaminated water.
Why is it that covering the asses of those who fed them the shit is your first priority?
Nice to see where your true loyalties lie.
Davebo
Stop it Doug! Please! You’re killing me!
yet another jeff
You gotta be kidding…what about the conspiracy to take away everyone’s bibles and force the kids into gay marraiges with mandatory abortions?
Damned liberal media….
jg
Channeling Rove? Troops are being given dirty water. This is a serious issue and I’m glad you didn’t post it four days after it hit the lefty blogs but do you have to toss in a zinger to keep your conservative street cred?
Pooh
Pure gold. Oh wait, you were serious? Not often you find a single sentance with so many inherent contradictions and non-sequiturs. But Pat, since only YOU can see the unstable atheist cabal, you’re one step ahead.
Presumed Guilty
From the article John linked:
But go ahead and assume guilt until they’re proven innocent. Should be pretty easy to prove – just post some data showing contamination above safe limits.
Davebo
Another Jeff
You’re just feeding the conspiracy myth. Obviously once we get the kids setup in a gay marriage the mandatory abortion thing won’t be necessary.
Nikki
In Halliburton’s defense, they gave the troops bottled drinking water. However, the dirty water was used for everything else, including washing clothes and dishes and making coffee.
Wonder if any congresscritters visited there at that particular point in time?
Krista
Jesus wept…
And we have people on this site who will claim in all seriousness, that American healthcare should be left up to corporations. Let’s give Halliburton a crack at it and see how it goes, shall we?
The Other Steve
I think you mean asthetic.
neil
In hindsight, that’s the best comment I ever wrote that everybody else ignored.
neil
(To clear it up, I have written better comments that went unignored)
jg
Unless coffee filters undesirable contaminants from water I’m not sure how your defending Haliburton. Troops drink the coffee right? If the coffee is made from dirty water aren’t they still drinking dirty water? Or are you inplying that Coors’ advertising strategy is full of shit too?
Pb
Do tell, John.
As a side note, Halliburton continues to engage in something that infuriates me–overcharging for fraud that wastes our tax dollars and endangers our military, and then subsequently covering it up.
So what’s your complaint about the press? Must be important.
Leaving aside the question of importance, why don’t we hear about how great Cheney was, when Halliburton was cleared of wrongdoing?
Well, that must be nice.
How nice of them.
Err, yeah. Good job there.
The Other Steve
Somehow, I think if Evian can supply bottled water to every grocery store in America.
They probably could supply Iraq too.
Just saying
yet another jeff
Davebo…once the liberals make all the kids gay, they’ll become promiscuous and cheat on each other, breaking those matrimonial bonds. The mandatory abortions are for the cheaters who breed.
jg
Thats the reasoning behind conservatives saying there is no such thing as corporate welfare. And its bullshit. Its not welfare because its in the country’s best interest can be used to say that any assistance program isn’t welfare because its also in the coountry’s best interest that its citizens have even a small chance to make a living.
Slide
Cole:
Ok… lets break it down for our Steeler’s fan cum-political commentator.
1995: Cheney CEO Halliburton
2000: Cheney resigns from Halliburton with package including deferred compensation and 400,000+ stock options
2001: Cheney sworn in as Vice President
2003:
2003:
2004:
2005:
2005:
..
2006:
Nahhhh… no reason to make any connections between Halliburton and Cheney.. just left wing propaganda..
Krista
I think you mean asthetic.
Can’t you be atheistic AND aesthetic?
neil
Thats the reasoning behind conservatives saying there is no such thing as corporate welfare. And its bullshit. Its not welfare because its in the country’s best interest can be used to say that any assistance program isn’t welfare because its also in the coountry’s best interest that its citizens have even a small chance to make a living.
I think you misunderstand. The vast majority of private corporations _do_ fulfill the basic capitalistic precondition that they are exchangeable. The bottled water is a good example — as you or someone else pointed out, Evian does a great job making and distributing water throughout the country, but if they started screwing up, there are hundreds of other companies that do the same thing. The government, for its bottled-water-buying purposes, would not do well to run its own water-bottling plant, since private industry fills that function well.
There is only one company in the world that can fill the function of supplying the American military. There would be none, except the DoD has been trying very hard over the last decade to create _one_, on the basis that it would be ‘private’ and thus more economically efficient. But as this case shows, a private contractor with monopoly power is basically the government with a license to profit.
Pooh
Pre. Guilty:
But now they’re just joshing? Move along, nothing to see here…
neil
So the government has three choices: 1) Throw Halliburton from the train and de-privatize; 2) Throw Halliburton from the train and foster the growth of another, identical unique company; or 3) Bail Halliburton out or shield them from prosecution as if they were a government office.
All three of these would have approximately the same cost, except that 1) and 2) would have much more of a transitional cost (which we can ill-afford right now). So 3) looks like the best choice for America, to me. I’m certainly not going to rule it out just because it’s the best choice for Cheney too.
Lines
From Pooh:
I (heart) Pooh!
And the main reason Pat R isn’t another DougJ spoof? DougJ rarely cusses when he spoofs.
LITBMueller
The dirty water is symptomatic of a problem that is WAY bigger than just KBR. It has to do with the unprecedented level that private business has become integrated into our military.
Anyone catch last week’s episode of Frontline on PBS? It concerned that very issue, and it brought up some very interesting points:
– In previous wars, the distribution of supplies (food, weapons, bullets, fuel, etc,) was handled all by the military. Now, KBR and other companies handle everything and, unlike, the military, they are not required to “follow orders.” For instance, if a particular supply route becomes very dangerous, the KBR-employed truckers can simply refuse to drive (this has happened at least once), putting our military at risk.
– KBR is providing unprecedented levels of “the comforts of home,” building on bases in Iraq little food courts that provide Subrway, Pizza Hut, etc. As one veteran who was interviewed for Frontline pointed out, why are we spending so much money on such 12 flavors of ice cream and burgers when there is a war still going on? Such resources would be better spent on quelling the insurgency.
– KBR and other contractors have a very different goal from the military, in general: while the military’s goals are success and protecting their soldiers, the contractors are concerned with making money. This is probably the reason for reports such as the dirty water, and other “bilking.” The two goals should not be operating on the same battlefield.
So, Cheney or no Cheney, these problems still must be dealt with. IMHO, if Iraq is an experiment on combining military might with private enterprise, then that experiment is a failure, the full scope of which we may not know for decades, as the contracts themselves are secret, the reports are being hidden, and whistelblowers are being silenced.
Pooh
Neil, #3 does still require an accountability process. To, you know, make sure it doesn’t happen again (often), right?
jg
By design. You even said so in your post. They created this thing. You can’t create a situation where only one company can do the job then give them a pass on fuckups because they are the only company that can do the job. Maybe they wouldn’t overcharge for meals or gas or forget to clean the water if there was some compatition. There will be competition once other companies see how profitable it is. Hell you could charge half of what Haliburton charges and still get rich.
A oil industry insider gets appointed to the departmant of energy, changes the global warming reports in the departments favor, quits and goes to work for Exxon.
A hospital industry lobbyists gets the job of putting together the medicare proposals which sell out to big pharma and hospitals, he quits and goes to work for a big pharam company.
A man who is CEO of the only company large enough to handle military outsourcing, appoints himself Vice fucking President of the USA, helps scare people into voting for the administration that wants to go to war early and often which by coincidence raises his stock options by 3000%.
You’re doing a heckuva job Brownie.
Pb
neil,
What, so in your mind, there’s no middle ground for the government to reprimand Halliburton and hold them responsible for their actions? Just the usual “please return a small amount of what you’ve stolen from us and deny all wrongdoing until next time”? I’ll also mention another option that I’m sure would be unpopular, but if we’re going to mention all the options: if Halliburton truly is a monopoly here, then the government could break up Halliburton, or try to buy (or seize?) it and turn it into a government monopoly so that they would have direct oversight, hiring/firing capabilities, etc…
Darrell
I just arbitrarily picked one of Slide’s claims:
Cheney cronyism! Except that Halliburton didn’t make that money
I’m sure much of the rest of Slide’s ‘evidence’ of Halliburton wrongdoing is similar dishonest leftist propaganda
Lines
Poor poor Darrell… When lefties are calling for responsible government and “best practices” spending control, you automatically defend the companies earning billions.
Afraid of accountability, Darrell? Thats all these “libruhls” are asking for, why do you automatically defend those that are bilking millions?
neil
You can’t create a situation where only one company can do the job then give them a pass on fuckups because they are the only company that can do the job.
Just a bit of a quibble. If they’re actually the only company that can do the job, then the meaning of the word ‘fuckups’ changes radically. Fuckup is a relative term, and you can be sure KBR does its job in Iraq better than any other company would. This is the same as it is for other government functions. Maybe SSA has problems, but it is the only SSA there is, you can’t just hire another one. If SSA has problems, you fix the problems instead of starting over.
But that’s not the bargain we were promised when we bought privatization. Privatization is supposed to let the market bear these transitional costs, but obviously with KBR it’s never going to work that way. This is why it’s just a money grab.
Pb
Darrell,
Well gosh, look no further–if Halliburton said so, it must be true! Also, see above where the Army Corps of Engineers broke the law to let Halliburton off the hook on that one.
neil
What, so in your mind, there’s no middle ground for the government to reprimand Halliburton and hold them responsible for their actions?
Sure, they could cut off their nose to spite their face. But why would they want to do that?
My point is that Halliburton _is_ the government. All their money comes from the government and all the work they do is for the government. This means that they are not actually a private company, they are just a branch of government which is allowed less scrutiny and more discretion with what to do with its money.
There is no middle ground in this case. That’s what makes it so problematic. That’s why faux-privatization is bad.
Pb
neil,
Err, yeah. In other news, George W. Bush is the best currently elected President of the United States there is. So, um, he’s doing his job better than any other hypothetical nonexistent currently elected President could. Hence, what’s the problem? Nothing to see here, move along…
Perry Como
A few cents on the dollar is only a 1.8 million, people. Stop being so dishonest.
Lines
Good point, neil. I think many might see your logic as a semi-defense of Halliburton’s corruption and mismanagement, but I think I understand where you are coming from.
As further examples of corporate government, wouldn’t the oil companies be in there? How about the power companies and the phone companies. All companies that rely upon government subsidies in order to make a profit. Once the Government is your only source of profit, you cease to be in the open market, you become an extension of the government.
Once you’re an extension of the government like that, you should have to be accountable to the people. Instead, Halliburton and the rest are allowed to keep secrets and hide things that would make them look bad.
neil
Err, yeah. In other news, George W. Bush is the best currently elected President of the United States there is. So, um, he’s doing his job better than any other hypothetical nonexistent currently elected President could. Hence, what’s the problem? Nothing to see here, move along…
I really appreciate the work you’re doing trying to think of false analogies, but I’m afraid there is very little in common between American elections and the invisible hand of the marketplace. Maybe if you could only perform one transaction every 4 years there would be more in common, but this is far outside the realm of interesting counterfactuals, so I’ll stop.
KBR is not a private company in the sense that any other private company is. It performs a unique service which is essential to government. Treating it like a private company, whether you are a DoD manager trying to save money or a liberal seeking accountability, is bound to lead you astray.
Stormy70
HALIBURTON!!!! {s-s-s-sput-t-tt-er-r-r….s-s-spit-t-t…ackkk…Clunk.}
If a liberal falls in the forest, and noone is listening, does he still make a sound?
Darrell
If Halliburton is caught overcharging, they are slapped with big punitive fines. If govt is caught wasting/losing money, they promise to do better next time
Pooh
Neil, I think I understand the point you are making, but could you be more specific as to why KBR is the only company that could do what they do? (And why they have no competitors, despite a less than perfect track record.)
Thanks.
Stormy70
Galloway (SOS-UK) is the greatest reality contestant, evah. Such gravitas. I think his Muslim constituents have already issued a fatwa.
Soory, DougJ. I am the thread
queererqueererer, today.Otto Man
What an excellent and thorough rebuttal to all the facts and figures laid out in the comments above. Well played.
Stormy70
Pooh, I think the only other company is French. No way in hell with that fly. Pick a French company over an American country, after France spit in our eye over Iraq? Hell to the NO!
Stormy70
Thanks! I’m on my lunch hour. Admit it, you guys do have a track record on freaking out about Haliburton, ad nauseum.
Darrell
They were awarded no-bid contractor under Bill Clinton to manage Balkan reconstruction. The problem is, no one knows in advance how many oil wells will be set on fire, how many pipelines will be destroyed, bridges, etc, so qualified companies bid on a cost plus basis and they subcontract out work in areas where they have no direct expertise. Other than Halliburton, probably only Bechtel would be the only other US company with similar experience in such large scale projects involving power plants, oil wells, process facilities and infrastructure rebuilding..
The Other Steve
Oh come now. your only defense for privitization of the military is that well… not much of a defense.
the facts are it costs us more, we don’t get good service and the only people benefiting are the suits at Halliburton.
Frankly, I think the soldiers could do a better job of supplying the soldiers.
Lines
Darrell, why make the deal secret, then?
Its the lack of accountability, Darrell. Thats the problem. Well, that and KBR and Halliburton keep getting caught.
If I am said private contractor and I have a direct contract to provide a service and the cost for that service is well over what it should be, its my fault. Since KBR/Halliburton declined to hold the Kuwait company accountable, KBR/Halliburton gets off on being accountable? Thats a load of crap, people.
Darrell
Yes, because the military is sooo skilled at capping oil well fires, repairing pipelines and rebuilding power plants. You really seems to have a deep understanding about what you’re talking about
neil
I was going to say roughly the same thing that Darrell said, except without the Bill Clinton dig. The services that these contractors provide to our military are extremely specialized, not to mention sensitive. Simply allowing a competitor in is a major risk — what if they’re not prepared for something, what if they’re not secure against infiltration — there is a serious trust premium we’re paying Halliburton and Bechtel.
All of this is why these services should not be contracted out anyway.
Pb
neil,
Not false at all. In both cases, the issue was framed so as to exclude all other reasonable alternatives. In both cases, there are obvious ways to correct the situation which you have ignored. Maybe that’s why you think it’s ‘false’.
If it comes to that, I’m afraid they have far too much in common, chief among them the corrosive influence that money and greed and a desire for power can play in the process.
Don’t stop being uninterestingly counterfactual on my account…
neil
Why _shouldn’t_ the military be good at capping oil well fires and fixing pipelines? Especially since it is now part of the military’s (permanent?) duty to guard oil wells and pipelines from constant vandalism.
Darrell
Halliburton won in a competitive bidding process… I believe they’ve won two or three times since the early 1990’s. I’m not sure what you mean by secret deal.
Well I agree with you that the deal was an outrageous waste of taxpayer money, but Halliburton has a legit beef – that they were limited by contract to work only with companies certified by the Army corps of engineers.. of which there was only ONE company which made the grade at the time, and they were charging outrageous prices. Blame the govt on that one, not Halliburton
Pb
Stormy,
Yeah, I’m not sure what it is about them, maybe it’s that I don’t like being lied to, or cheated–Halliburton already has a ‘track record’ of their own. But I’ll make you a deal:
Henceforth, if they do their job fairly (which means without committing fraud against our government, wasting our tax dollars, knowingly endangering our military, etc.) then I won’t ‘freak out’.
neil
The only part I don’t understand is what you think the ‘obvious’ way to correct the problem of President Bush is, Pb. It seems to be at least as hairy a problem as that of KBR.
Ancient Purple
Ah, yes. The old “Clinton did it, too.”
Congratulations, Darrell. At least you waited to post a few other posts before throwing that one in.
Lines
And thats just from within the thread.
If Halliburton felt they were getting ripped off, they could have reported the overcharging immediately. They could have petitioned the government to change the policy. If you are right and the contract was “barely” profitable to Halliburton, then why not manage it better to make it more profitable?
I’m sorry, but logic says that they were making more money than we know, unfortunately its unpatriotic to check them for it.
Mike S
I still feel pity for Stormy. The cognitive dissonance she must be feeling as she watches her party explode from scandal after scandal must be terrible. All that’s left for her are boring non-sequiters.
Al Maviva
I’d like to know more details before I mentally sentence anybody to jail. On most of my deployments to low-hygeine parts of the world, we were watered from two “water buffaloes” – big water tank trailers. One would have a sign and stenciled paint that said “non-potable water.” That meant “don’t drink it” but we were free to shower in it, wash clothes, whatever. Usually it was chlorinated to make it clean enough to clean with – as the KBR/Halliburton water supposedly was, sometimes it didn’t seem to treated at all, maybe in reliance on the local water authority’s treatment process. The second water buffalo would say “potable water.” That meant you could drink it. It usually tasted like a$$ because it was run through a desalinization filter or treated to the bejeezus with chemicals to kill the local flora and fauna. The commander and health officers would generally order us not to drink the non-potable water. We were also typically provided with bottled water, and on one deployment in particular, when we had a supply chain problem (hence no water buffs and no bottled water), we resorted to boiling local water for 10 or 20 minutes before drinking it. I didn’t view it as a scandal at the time that we had to bath in water not fit for drinking. Little did I know that Bush 41, and later Bill Clinton, were giving me the shaft, those bastards. Why do they hate American soldiers?
Just kidding. But the technical details about this kind of thing matter, as does the labeling of the water supply sources and the command’s communications with the troops. That article is too short on details to draw absolute conclusions. If the troops were instructed that the allegedly unsafe water was non-potable, then it’s a non-issue. You drink non-potable water that you’ve been ordered to stay away from, then you deserve dysentary. The military generally expects the troops to follow orders. On the other hand if there was dishonesty in the process, then KB&R and any military or DOD civilian contractors involved need to be punished, badly. I’m too distrustful of the media, the military and whistleblowers at this point to draw any conclusions based on that article.
Darrell
Given you and your side’s attempts to claim Halliburton is part of some Cheney cronyism conspiracy to go into war to line Halliburton’s pockets, it’s entirely fair to ask whether Clinton and Gore involved the US military in the Balkans to benefit Halliburton
Did you know Al Gore singled out Halliburton for praise with his reinventing govt. panel when he was VP? It’s true.
Davebo
Darrell
Actually the US military has capped exactly the same number of oil well fires as Haliburton has.
Zero.
Pb
Darrell,
Says who? Their press release? Please.
Darrell
Halliburton capped those fires using subcontractors. I suppose builders can’t claim they ‘built’ a building if they subcontracted out the plumbing, right?
Pb
neil,
My analogy gets better and better! :)
Anyhow, in both cases, there are actions that Congress can take to determine whether or not there was malfeasance, and if so, to take corrective action. And in both cases, this Congress as a whole doesn’t seem to be particularly interested in pursuing those actions for some reason.
Darrell
Can you read Pb? Your linked article points out
1. Halliburton’s own internal auditors discovered the wrongdoing
2.Halliburton was not the ones profiting, but a corrupt purchasing manager who was getting million dollar kickbacks
“While performing a routine audit, Halliburton’s own internal auditors discovered the possible wrongdoing in Kuwait more than a year ago.
Kirk Spencer
Problem, Darrell. Your cite is from 2003. The audit was completed in March of 2003. Know what it said?
Halliburton appears to have overcharged by $62,046,284 – that amount is “questioned”. Additional other questioned and unresolved charges bring the total to over $110 million.
http://www.democrats.reform.house.gov/Documents/20050314103550-98610.pdf
What the auditors requested – in 2005, mind you, which is two years AFTER your article – was that Halliburton provide schedules of actual costs (instead of statements to the news media), and until then that “contract price negotiations not be concluded” till the information is provided.
So perhaps Halliburton did and perhaps it didn’t make that money, but the Defence Contract Auditing Agency says they appear to have overcharged the government and at least want proof that it was passing along the charges instead of keeping them.
Davebo
You brought it up Darrell. The army could have easily contracted directly with Wild Well Control, Boots and Coots, et all and saved a bundle of money by cutting out the rather useless middle man.
Given your logic, perhaps we should buy our new joint strike fighter from Halliburton as well?
Darrell
Except that they wouldn’t have “saved a bundle” as costs would have to be incurred to manage those subcontractors and KBR only gets a tiny markup over their cost. But thanks for your ‘insights’
Davebo
Basically Darrell the question is this.
What value added thing did Halliburton add to the mix in extinguishing oil well fires?
Superiour experience in rapid mobilization? Over companies like Wild Well Control? Laughable on it’s face (and I’ve worked with WWC on emergency mobilization).
Navigating the red tape of foreign countries and their environmental and other regulations? Again, a farcicle joke as these companies have been doing that for years and, in the case of Iraq, there was zero regulation.
Pb
Darrell,
You’re quoting the Halliburton spokesperson again…
Paul Wartenberg
Getting this late, been traveling all day:
Last I heard, Cheney is supposedly still earning money from Halliburton, obstensibly in a blind (yeah, right) trust. Hence the constant tie-in.
If I am wrong on Cheney’s annual stipend from Halliripoff, please correct me.
Davebo
Manage them? Exactly how? They’ve been doing it for years, mostly working directly for governments abroad.
As to your snarky “thanks for your insight” line. I personally know the owners of both companies I’ve mentioned and have worked with them in the past.
Where do you get your vast experience from Darrell?
Darrell
So in other words, nobody knows whether or not Halliburton overcharged in that instance. Quite a bit different than what was being leveled at them upthread, wouldn’t you agree?
Darrell
Oh yes Davebo, you seem to really ‘know’ what you’re talking about in your claim that subcontractors don’t need to be managed. How stupid can you be?
But you know the owner of Boots & Coots right? so that answers everything
Darrell
I believe he gets a fixed pension from Halliburton unrelated to company performance. Please correct me if I’m mistaken about that
RonB
Bite me. Those were the best tasting Whoppers I ever had. You’re also mixing up AAFES with KBR. KBR may do the building, but AAFES is the one doling out the franchises. Gives locals jobs too.
Darrell
Since Davebo knows the owner of Boots & Coots, I’m sure he’s well aware that they only do one very specific aspect of the well firefighting. There are a number of firms who fight the fires who were also contracted by Halliburton. Boots & Coots, however, is a specialized subcontractor based here in Houston who goes in and extinguishs the fire once it has been brought under a certain degree of control and they’re done. That’s it for them. It’s a dangerous, specialized part of the operation, and it’s their specialty. Once the fire is extinguished, Boots & Coots turns the well over to Halliburton, which then has the job of capping the well. Since oil is shooting out of the well, and it requires specialized equipment to generate the massive amount of pressure to cap it. This equipment is developed by Halliburton. Once the well is capped, someone has to rebuild the well, pipeline, and process facilities which were damaged. Again, not the type of work Boots & Coots does.
To summarize, Boots & Coots is subcontracted by Halliburton to perform a very specific task, which is but one of many tasks involved in dealing with and repairing damage from oilfield fires.
But since davebo is so familiar with Boots & Coots, I’m sure he knew all this already
Slide
Cheney is no longer receiving his annual compensation from Halliburton but is still in possession of 400,000 stock options. Those options increased in value over 3,000 per cent last year. Now, if thats not a conflict of interest I dont’ know what is. We even hava an email from Cheney’s office showing that they coordinated Halliburton’s Iraq contracts. Coinicidence? Or just more Republican corruption?
fucking war profiteering crooks
RonB
Since most of the personalities are here, with a few notable exceptions, I’d like to take this moment to defuse the hostilities(or create some new ones)by directing y’all to The Flame Warriors! Find out which forum warrior you are, or choose one for the people you can’t stand!!!
Example: I don’t know Darrell personally, but I think he is a Tireless Rebutter:
He could also be Ferrous Cranus:
Sorry, Darrell. Be glad you stand out in the crowd. Anyway, have fun.
Darrell
Slide, I thought you Dems forced Cheney into selling all his options before taking office?
Slide
no Darrell….. you are yet once again…WRONG…
Not only does Cheney have a conflict of interest, he is a lying sack of shit for saying he had no financial interest in Halliburton. But we already all know he is a liar right Darrell?
CaseyL
Cheney also holds 433,333 stock options. And not only is that “related to company performance,” he has a vested interest in making sure Halliburton’s stock price doesn’t fall below what it was worth when the stock options were granted.
Not much risk of that: the value of the options rose 3,281% percent in 2004.
But, sure, all those secretly-awarded, no-bid, no oversight, contracts the DOD gave Halliburton have nothing to do with that.
Pooh
I think Darrell needs to take the “W. Dead Kitten” survey.
Darrell
You’re right Slide, Cheney sold most, but not all of his stock options. But regarding his “conflict of interest”, this is from the article you linked to:
The Other Steve
We’re talking about supplying food and water.
Napolean said “An Army travels on its stomach”. It is as true today as it was in 1812 when he abandoned his army in Russia due to lack of supplies.
yet another jeff
Damn…he pledged…guess that’s that.
Slide
Yeah, and Alito pledged to recuse himself on all Vanguard cases that came before him.
Darrell
The scope of Halliburton’s contract with our military goes far beyond supplying food and water. I hope this information helps
The Other Steve
That is the funniest thing I’ve seen today!
I wonder if this survey might be treated more respectfully if it came from the University of Malvo?
CaseyL
But wait! There’s more!
Cheney was SecDef under Bush I, right up until 1993. So, let’s see: under his tenure as SecDef, Pentagon hires Halliburton subsidiary B&R to “implement an outsourcing plan.”
In 1995, Cheney, who gave the approval for that hire, becomes Halliburton CEO.
And in 2001, Cheney, who approved hiring a Halliburton subsidiary while he was employed by the government, and who became Halliburton’s CEO the minute he left government employ, became Vice President of the United States… which promptly handed Halliburton multiple, multi-billion dollar contracts, on a no-bid basis.
And:
In 2002? Before the 3,281% gain in value? What’s Cheney’s net worth today?
But of course there’s no conflict of interest here. Nope.
The Other Steve
Interesting. Let me look at the top of this web page again.
Dirty Water
Yup, says water. I’m pretty certain that’s what we’re talking about. Supplying water. Yup, confirmed it from the other comments here.
Yup. It’s water all right.
The Other Steve
Even in Fluffy the Kitten v. Department of Justice?
Pat R
Not that any of the “Cheney/Halliburton Freakazoids” will be influenced by facts, it should be pointed out that the Vice President has signed an agreement to donate any profits from his stock options to charity, and has pledged not to take a tax deduction on such charitable gifts. Also, the VP’s financial interest in Halliburton is not tied to the success or failure of the company because of an insurance policy purchased by the VP at substantial personal cost. In other words, the insurance policy, which guarantees his financial interest will be paid to him regardless of Halliburton’s success or failure, is proof there is no quid-pro-quo.
Lines
Don’t let the title fool you, its all about kittens and oil.
The Other Steve
I pledged to Delta Delta Delta sorority last week.
Slide
Are all current Republican politicians crooks?
Darrell
Comments like those above bitching about Cheney’s pension and Halliburton’s (non water related) nefarious dealings?
The Other Steve
An Insurance Policy from the University of Malvo!
Darrell
they never are. Cheney’s contract to donate those profits to charity is irrevocable.. B-b-b-b-butttt Bush lied! Cheneyburton!! No blood for oil! [/drooling leftist BJ posters]
Otto Man
Cheney’s detractors have been throwing out lots of damning facts, figures, and official reports on Halliburton’s many many problems and Cheney’s continued stake in the company, while Cheney’s defenders respond with a note that he’s promised to give the money away.
Tell me again which side isn’t influenced by facts?
The Other Steve
It seems to me if they can’t handle gas supplies properly, then they ought not be trusted with water.
DougJ
What about all the stock options Clinton had when he took office? How come we never hear about those?
Pooh
Not to let facts get in the way of a good character assassination, but the Vanguard thing is a non-issue – Vanguard was involved in that case in name, but had no real stake in the outcome. (The money at issue was on deposit with Vanguard, but would never be theirs). At most, bad judgment by Alito (but given the CAP thing, we already knew that…)
The Other Steve
A University of Malvo study showed that facts get in the way of a good argument in 85% of cases cited on the internet.
Steve
It’s Malmo, you fool. Malmo!
God, how people can be so ignorant about the third-largest city in Sweden is beyond me.
Slide
Well, not according the the REPUBLICAN Congressional Research Service which studied the matter and issued a report quite to the contrary.
.
Pooh
Other Steve,
There have been responses to the survey. Including this interesting twist:Winston Churchill once kicked a cat while he was on the phone. Should his political career have been ended then and there?A talking point evolution/design: Churchill did it too…
Pooh
er sorry, that should read:
A talking point evolution/design: Churchill did it too…
Davebo
But seriously folks, I feel certain, CERTAIN! I tell ya that had Hillary been a major shareholder in say, Healthsouth, and then Healthsouth had been given a no bid contract to oversea a universal health care plan for the US governemnt, none of our friends from the right here would be pointing out that it looks sort of like a conflict.
Just as they never mentioned oral sex or the fact that lesbian Hillary inexplicably murdering her male lover Vince Foster.
Darrell
Silly boy. Everyone knows Hillary had such proven expertise in trading pork belly options that she would never need get involved in anything like a conflict of interest
Pooh
Davebo, you only get a half-point for that, it’s too easy.
yet another jeff
Are we sure that Vince wasn’t killed with a bullet made from frozen non-potable water?
But, I guess anyone that wants accountability from a giant corporation contracted with the govt. is just an atheist that believes in conspiracies. To be fair, the conspiracy would have to have aesthetic value to survive this long.
Lines
I prefer dead-babies to build my strawmen over hammered kittens, but thats just because you can stick dead babies together with duct tape better. No blood to get in the way or the duct tape.
Davebo
Pooh,
Well, I might add that these same great americans will have absolutely no problem with Hillary listening in on their phone conversations in 2009.
I mean, heck, if you’ve got nothing to hide why would you care? Unless of course it’s your medical records and your name is Rush.
neil
Pb, I hope you’re joking. President Cheney is a ‘solution’ to the problem?
I can assure you that there are many more people in America capable of filling the office of President than there are contactors capable of doing what KBR does for the US military.
CaseyL
Why limit it to people?
After Bush, I think Koko the Signing Gorilla could be President, and not do nearly as bad a job as Bush.
Hell, why limit the franchise to sentient beings?
After Bush, the Magic 8 Ball could be President, and probably not do nearly as bad a job as Bush.
Rusty Shackleford
“As a side note, the press continues to engage in something that infuriates me- every time Halliburton is alleged to have done some wrong doing, it is immediately tied in with Cheney, who has not worked for them for 6 years.”
Are you really that naive? Do you think we’re that stupid?
Otto Man
An 8-Ball could probably master the president’s usual speaking style: “I’m a fortune teller. In other words, I tell people … their fortunes.”
Krista
We could get an oily kitten to do the job…
Darrell
I think most of us know the answer to that question
Pb
neil,
Hey, Vice Presidents can be impeached too. But at this point (2006) an impeachment hearing would likely have more to do with accountability and fact-finding than actually getting rid of anyone. Sort of like, say, having Congress investigate Halliburton to see what they might have done illegally, given what we already know.
ATS
The Halliburton gig is like the war itself. They figured they’d do it quick enough so that any questions would look like nitpicking after the fact. And, had it all been the cakewalk they expected, they might well have gotten away with it. Almost anything would have been forgiven.
As it happens, they still have their hands in the cookie jar when the light is being turned on.
Also, with regard saying, “for whatever reason, this is not being investigated” John is SUCH a kidder.
Slide
I agree 100%. These childishly naive morons that got us into this disaster of war actually belived their hype. They thought we would march in there, everyone would love us, we would put Chalabi in power, use THEIR oil to pay Halliburton and all the other Repbublican cronies with big fat no bid contracts. They were so aroused by their own grand plan they made themselves belive it was possible. They were walking around with hardons over at the American Enterprise Institute telling themselves how much smarter they are then everyone else. lol.. what morons.
Lines
If it just hadn’t been for those lousy kids and their dog.
Lines
Does anyone else think that the grandious f-up of Iraq has a lot to do with Iran’s brazen disregard of the US and its demands? The US has gone from “showered with rose petals and candies” to “Quagmire” faster than Michelle Malkin can find the next PVS victim. That kind of screwup should come with some kind of punative side effect, don’t you think?
In other words, if the US had marched in, placed Chalabi in power and Iraq became a beacon of freedom (on the surface), would Iran still be a problem?
Since Iran is now a major problem, can we hold Bush responsible or do we need him to eat a few more babies before we do that?
Pooh
Ruh Roh Lines, they are listening to you know. And we all know that “Scooby Snacks” are drugs. Drugs so illegal that Medicare Part D won’t even pay for them. But you have nothing to hide, so why worry?
Davebo
Probably, but not very much of a problem.
As it is Iran has two major advantages.
1. They know we’re bogged down in Iraq for the near future.
2. They know the US won’t trust a government claiming Iran deals with terrorists and is building nuclear weapons nearly as much as they have in the past.
What we really should be talking about is how the US should deal with an Iran developing nuclear weapons with the understanding that sooner or later we’ll have to deal with them once they have them.
Because it’s inevitable that eventually Iran and many other countries will have nuclear weapons.
Krista
Pooh – how does your mind work? I marvel, sometimes at the twists and turns of your psyche…
DougJ
You’re leaving out the detail that the no bid contract involved work on a war that Hillary had predicted would be a cakewalk costing the American taxpayers at most 1.6 billion dollars, which in fact devolved into a multiyear occupation costing the taxpayers $500 billion dollars…but you’re right, the Republicans would never have complained about it.
Pooh
Krista, what are you trying to say?
Lines
Oh, and whoever is trying to use Hillary as a hotbutton can pretty much drop it around here. I don’t think you’ll find many blind supporters of the Hillary way of politics, especially after her partisan bungling of the Abramoff Tribal money. Those on the left trying to use Hillary as a hotbutton on the right can continue, though. It doesn’t seem to get Darrells thong twisted enough, so we might have to start using Durbin or Reid quotes. If sound travelled over threads we could always include a Dean shout to punctuate a good post.
Krista
From cartoons to drugs to medicare to domestic spying, all in one very brief post. It was lovely.
Krista
Darrell wears a thong? No wonder he gets so grumpy…
Otto Man
I guess the media was too busy obsessing about old business parters like the MacDougalls.
Kirk Spencer
Darrell, you quoted me as saying:
Then you said it doesn’t say what it says. I’m wondering just what your native language is.
There’s no doubt of overcharging. There’s an appearance of overcharging, and unless Halliburton can provide evidence it was unable to provide during a TWO YEAR AUDIT that’s the decision of the DCAA, which is why it is recommending that Halliburton get NO MORE CONTRACTS.
That is, I’m afraid, quite different from “nobody knows” and instead completely supports what was said upthread. Either learn to comprehend English or quite misconstruing what is said, whichever is applicable.
Pooh
And I’ll now raise you Nancy Kerrigan…“WHY?”
Darrell
I never said or implied otherwise. The question is, was this particular overcharge a result of an evil Cheney-driven Halliburton caught with their hand in the cookie jar, or was it the fault of a subcontractor who overcharged Halliburton?
You seem thoroughly confused by that distinction
Pb
Darrell,
The only further statement I’ll say to you on that subject is that if you were capable of comprehending anything about Halliburton that wasn’t written by one of their press spokespeople, then you might be closer to an answer on that question.
Darrell
Bush and Cheney are attempting another fascist power grab by creating their own Columbian drug empire
Darrell
As if you are capable of any thought process beyond ‘Cheneyburton’
ppGaz
But not many of them are perfect Potatoheads like our infantile king!
It’s the eyebrows.
The Other Steve
The first two being Helsinki and Oslo.
Another University of Malvo study confirmed that 15% of people who care about Geography are swedes.
Pooh
Darrell, an October 2000 story? Would you next like to link to something bad someone once said about Gerald Ford?
Darrell
Perhaps you missed the part just underneath the headline which reads: “Lead story in the October 24, 2000 issue of “From The Wilderness”
Darrell
duh, my bad. still a typical left wing conspiracy story
Krista
Pooh – why? Because I goddamn well wanted to, that’s why. :)
Actually, it’s Lines’ fault.
Is it my fault that my flair for the inappropriate cannot be controlled?
Steve
Darrell takes the position that as long as he can Google a rebuttal to someone’s allegation, then the allegation must be false. No wonder these threads are always such a joy.
Otto Man
That seems to be the operating principle of the Bush administration, so why should we think in different terms?
kdaug
Guys, I’m trying to follow along with this, really I am. I understand that Halliburton is the only company with the requisite logistical expertise to deliver the needed food and water to our troops.
What I don’t understand is how, before Halliburton existed, we ever managed to win all those other wars, from the Revolution forward? How about earlier wars in other countries? I mean, what corporation delivered the food and water to the troops in the Hundred-Years war? Or the Crusades?
Did the troops in those wars just die of thirst if they were lucky enough to have not been killed on the battlefield? Or has Halliburton been around a lot longer that we think?
demimondian
Why did you leave Moscow out?
Darrell
Specifically what are you talking about jackass?
Pb
kdaug,
Before Halliburton, the troops did it all. We won those wars because we had more troops then, and we weren’t as overextended as we are now. Without Halliburton, we’d probably have to have a draft, or a speedy withdrawl from Iraq, although I think we could start replacing some of their jobs with other contractors.
Pb
You, Darrell. He’s talking about you, and your behavior here. Pay attention, man. I for one think he’s dead on, but you were never one to notice the obvious.
Sock Puppet
Is it just me, or is there a decided lack of concern for the poor guys who drank this stuff?
For every one post expressing concern, there must be 10 delightful entries extolling the virtues of the fat fuckers who sold and shipped this bilge.
The only thing that is missing here is a post blaming the troops for not taking any responsibility for what it is they drink.
Slide
Darrell is googling a response to Steve as we speak
Krista
Sock Puppet – good point. Has anybody heard if they’re experiencing any health problems due to this? Like they needed this additional worry, huh?
Slide
Not provide our military with the availabe body armour for years? That’s ok.
No provide our military with properly armored humvees? Thats ok.
Overcharge our military for fuel, food and water? no problem.
give our fighting men and women contaminated water? hey, why make such a big deal?
But damn that commie coward John Kerry voted againt supporting our military. Now that pisses me off.
Steve
I was going to say, “basically every post you ever made,” but then I realized there is one other species of Darrell argument, the one where you alternate between (i) calling people names like “jackass” and (ii) going on about the Angry Left and their lack of civility.
Either way, pure comedy gold, dude. What DougJ has on you in humor value you make up for with verisimilitude. And I don’t say that to just anyone.
Slide
better than me, I dont’ say that to anyone (not knowing what verisimilitude means)
Darrell
Cause Lord knows you’re never wrong
Pooh
He’s an unstable atheist, so he doesn’t think the Lord knows anything. Infidel.
Steve
Well, at least I know October 24, 2000 fell during October 2000 without looking it up.
Krista
But is he aesthetic?
Sorry if I seem a little loony tonight (Darrell, don’t take the bait, I know it’s tempting…) I’m watching the election coverage, and will soon start drinking à la Stormy.
Pooh
Did too have to look it up.
kdaug
Sorry, PB – that was just over-winded snark.
Stormy70
But will you be happy drinking or tear in the beer drinking?
Pb
kdaug,
No problem, it’s probably worth stating the obvious around here every once in a while.
Steve, ROFL.
Krista
Right now, I’m just drinking to blot out the inane commentary. Tomorrow…I don’t know. I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt to whoever wins, but as time goes on, my consumption might have to increase. I’ll keep you all posted.
demimondian
ppg — I remember Mr Potatohead, and Mrs Potatohead, but I don’t remember a Hasbro President Potatohead. (Although our current president potatohead has a has-been bro, so maybe that counts for something.)
Conservative minority government, eh, Krista? And Paul Martin losing in early returns…again?
Krista
That’s what it looks like. Oh well…at least if it’s a Conservative minority, maybe Harper won’t be allowed to get away with anything too bizarre. I have no problem w/ him scrapping the gun registry, but I’m worried about him possibly scrapping gay marriage. I’m fairly sure my reproductive rights are in no danger…Canada’s pretty liberal on that, and we’d be rioting in the streets if he tried messing with it. I just hope he won’t pander to the U.S. too much. Not that I don’t love you guys to bits and think you guys are peachy-keen, but I kind of prefer for my country’s leader to make decisions based on what’s best for my country, not what’s best for the country next door.
Krista
But, not every girl gets a new government for her birthday (as of 17 minutes ago), so I guess I should feel special.
demimondian
Well, happy birthday to you!
So I take it you’re in one of the Atlantic provinces, given that your clock is four hours ahead of mine?
Krista
Demi – thanks! And yes, I’m in Nova Scotia.
Pooh
Happy happy, joy joy.
Krista
:) LOL. Anyhoo, I’m off to bed. Must work tomorrow, and I need my beauty sleep. (Especially now that I’ve reached the advanced age of 31.)
Steve S
Country? I thought you were our 51st state?
Or was that Iraq?
BadTux
Okay, here’s an idea. Instead of paying Halliburton to feed rat droppings and cockroaches to our troops at a cost of $50 a meal using cooks, truck drivers, and cleaning staff who are paid $150K/year because of the risks of working in a war zone, why don’t we put cooks, food truck drivers, and precurement officers on the Army payroll on the standard GI payscale, like what used to be the case before Secretary of Defense Cheney privatized the Army’s supply chain? I somehow suspect that some GI on KP duty peeling potatos is gonna cost a whole lot less money than that Halliburton no-bid-contract cook. And he’s less likely to shove rat droppings and cockroaches into the stew too, because those are his brothers in uniform, not just captive customers.
Let’s face it, some things just don’t make sense to outsource, either because there’s only one company in the world with the capacity (Halliburton) and they’ll charge you an arm and a leg to outsource it to them, or because a combat zone is no place for civilians. In this case, my personal opinion is that a combat zone is no place for civilians, and that the correct thing to have done would have been to pump more money into the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to handle the water supplies for the camps in Iraq. They’re trained to be shot at and there’s no liability issues if they get shot, and they work for a helluva lot less money than Halliburton does in areas where Halliburton has a monopoly.
The issue of tooth-to-tail has been hotly debated ever since Vietnam. During the Vietnam conflict, the tooth-to-tail ratio reached nearly 1:14 (i.e., for every one guy in the field holding a rifle, there were 14 people making sure he had bullets, uniforms, hair cuts, meals, medical care, etc.). Thus while there were 500,000 GI’s in Vietnam during the height of the war, there were actually only maybe 35,000 GI’s actually fighting, the rest were the “tail”. We have about 30,000 infantry in Iraq right now, the rest are “tail”, for a tooth:tail ratio of about 1:4, much better than in Vietnam, right? The only problem is, all those needs of soldiers in the field didn’t go away just because they were outsourced. All that happened was that they got more expensive, because getting civilians to go into a combat zone takes a *lot* of money. So figure we actually have around 300,000 “non-GI’s” making sure that our soldiers in Iraq are fed, clothed, their jeeps maintained, etc… and if they’re basically being paid $150K/year apiece to get them to go into a combat zone, that’s $45 *billion* dollers per year all by itself. So now you know why Bush has to keep going back to the well for supplemental money for the Iraq war.
BTW, $45 billion dollars would pay the salaries for 1,800,000 soldiers for a year. We would actually only need around 600,000 additional soldiers in the U.S. Army to handle those services, meaning that we could save $30 billion per year by DE-privatizing the stuff that Halliburton is currently doing. I expect that to happen somewhere around the time that cows fly, since that would reduce the profits of Bush cronies and we currently have a 3rd world government where the purpose of government is to enrich cronies of the ruling party rather than to serve the people. What do you think?
– Badtux the Military Penguin
Pooh
I thought Guam was the 51st state.
Stormy70
Happy Birthday, Krista!
Mine’s on Friday, LOL. I will be living it up in Austin with the family. Lots of libation and Pitch playing will ensue. What are your plans on the day of your country’s liberation? ;)
Krista
No big plans, as it’s a Tuesday, and the fates have not conspired to give me a big enough lottery win to not have to be at work today. However, the bf is cooking me a lovely birthday supper (duck with poached pears and a side of roasted fennel and squash). So that will be nice.
Faux News
I think a thread yesterday perfectly described the BJ Troll known as “Darrell”
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm
demimondian
Actually, Darrell is, I think, better described by this example.
Pb
BadTux,
I think we’d have a hard time recruiting all those soldiers. Do you feel a draft?
The Other Steve
I think they’re also trained to shoot back, if necessary.
Krista
What a marvellous site that is! Too funny. I definitely recognized quite a few people. :)
demimondian
Why does that thought fill me with dread? ;)
Krista
demi – only some of the more “extreme” personalities. There are many others whose viewpoints are too nuanced to be lumped into a category.
Damn. I’m “The Diplomat”, aren’t I?