Apparently also includes Joel Stein at the LA Times:
I DON’T SUPPORT our troops. This is a particularly difficult opinion to have, especially if you are the kind of person who likes to put bumper stickers on his car. Supporting the troops is a position that even Calvin is unwilling to urinate on.
And less scrupulous members of the right now have another broad brush with which to paint those who are against the war in Iraq. What was Joel Stein thinking?
*** Update ***
Heh.
Par R
Ms. Streisand has announced that she has just renewed her recently canceled LA Times subscription. She said she “absolutely adored” the column.
MN Politics Guru
Some people like to hear the sound of their own voice, maybe? They want to stir the pot? Who knows?
I don’t know who this Joel Stein guy is, and his opinion probably doesn’t carry much weight and carries less action. However, one of the top Republican senators, Rick Santorum, who does have one of 100 votes on the floor, thinks that real brave men and women don’t join the military. Real men and women stick bumper stickers on their cars.
Yes, he said it.
rilkefan
“I’m not advocating that we spit on returning veterans like they did after the Vietnam War”
This guy doesn’t even know when he’s spouting the other side’s propaganda.
ppGaz
By all means, if you are going to live in a world where everything is either bathos, or snark, and in either case, political …. you can’t choose your words too carefully.
In a world where the realities are daily death and destruction, a dysfunctional and incompetant government, and all the rest of it …. this LAT piece is just so, so important. Really, I’m not kidding.
WTF? What is this thread about?
I don’t think even the troops think that this government actually supports its troops any more. What pretense are we propping up here, again? I’m confused.
OCSteve
And no prominent dem / lib blogger will step up and denounce him for these remarks.
Can you expand on “less scrupulous members of the right”? I take it as him having the cojones to say in print what many others of his ilk think but don’t dare quite say out loud.
Confirmation, more than more ammunition to broadly paint anyone.
ppGaz
You’re right, it is hard to imagine that there are ones less scrupulous than …. your average members.
Brad R.
And no prominent dem / lib blogger will step up and denounce him for these remarks.
I may not be prominent, but otherwise you’re Sadly, Mistaken!
OCSteve
I still had a half thought (ppGaz bait!) that it was meant to be satirical. Nope. HH interviewed him. (Wow, an opportunity to post a HH link – that should make some heads explode):
Sorry – this is just repulsive to me. The author, the editor, and the entire LAT should be ashamed of themselves.
Good night all.
srv
I hear he’s going to be waterboarded in the next episode of 24.
OCSteve
Bravo sir, I salute you. Comment formally retracted.
Paddy O'Shea
Can you imagine having to go through life worrying about what Karl Rove might say?
Getting to be quite a pattern here. Remember the terrible things that were going to happen because John Kerry dared to let it be known that he didn’t think Michael Moore was a paid agent of Satan or Al Qaeda or something?
Seems that in John Cole’s internal cosmology the fearsome Karl Rove is an equivalent of Calvin’s version of God.
Oh no!! Lightning!!! Yi!! Yi!!! Yiiii!!!!!!
Brad R.
I hear he’s going to be waterboarded in the next episode of 24.
Dude, did you see the scissors-to-the-neck action they had going on last night? Du-huuuu-huuuu-huuuuude!!!
ppGaz
I had half a thought earlier today.
I’m waiting now for the other half to float by.
Have a pleasant evening, Steve ;-)
ppGaz
It’s a blog. In Blogworld, stuff like this is roughly the equivalent of Godzilla vs. The Sea Monster.
ppGaz
Yes … for six years now.
Paddy O'Shea
Really? I thought it might be more of a Moe vs. Curly thing.
Paddy O'Shea
Explains the twitch.
kl
We know.
ppGaz
C’mon, kl, Godzilla vs. Sea Monster was gold.
Gold, I tell ya.
Paddy O'Shea
Lieberman: White House Hindering Katrina Probe
(Oh now he’s done it! Karl is going to be VERY MAD!)
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/01/24/katrina.levees/
ppGaz
No, you gotta picture the big liberal lizard knocking over the towers and buildings in the table-top, papier-mache righty power plant. With roaring and fake smoke.
All theatrical. All nonsense. But convincing to the easily entertained.
The Other Steve
Occassionally over on dKos you’ll get some fruitcake who says something similar, and they get about 50 troll ratings. Most of the time it’s wingnuts coming over there to stir trouble, occasionally it’s some youngin who just doesn’t get it. Not sure which Stein is.
I’m not surprised to see the wingnuts jump on this, but this guy is way outside the mainstream of liberal politics.
Although after having seen that Santorum video, he may fit right in with the Republicans.
The Other Steve
Most likely because they seem to be talking about Iran, Alito Warrantless Wiretaps and the Katrina hearings, whereas the right wing crowd apparently can’t find anything important to talk about..
If it was important to denounce him, I can tell you kos would be at the front of the line.
I’ve yet to see any righty blogs of stature(is BJ a righty blog of stature?) denounce Santorum.
Pooh
Let’s not forget Part D. and fawning over the Beetle’s Bush Book (kudos to anyone who catches the reference, BTW).
srv
I think this guy is the hollywood humor writer… I think OCSteve should lay off and embrace him, as he’s apparently already hated by Dowd:
How to apologize to a feminist
I suspect they have more in common than they know.
Geoduck
I’ll say it. I don’t blindly “support the troops” (or condemn them en mass), cuz that’s painting with far too broad a brush. I have sympathy and compassion for the ones who have to go out every single day on those damned Iraqi roads, facing IEDs and snipers with inadequate body armor and equipment. I hope, with very little hope, that the killings end, and they all manage to come intact, physically and mentally.
The ones threatening naked prisoners with attack dogs, and manning the waterboards? The ones who ordered them to do it? They get nothing from me. Nothing. Even if they were just out on the road getting shot at.
Laura
Why should liberal bloggers or democrats be held accountable for something Joel Stein writes? Why should they even care? I doubt he’s on many people’s radar, and most political types have probably never read his column. Besides, Stein might talk politics once in a while, but he’s not a political columnist, let alone an elected official like Santorum. Stein’s claim to fame is appearing on VH1 once in a while and his columns are mostly full of bad humor and gossip. What he wrote was assinine and offensive, but you could pretty much say that about his column every week and be right.
Pooh
Is that who he is? The jackass with the frizzed out hair who’s about 1/3rd as funny as Mo Rocha?
CaseyL
I guess he was thinking that he has some kind of weird Constitutional Right to express his opinion, however wrongheaded and unpopular it is.
The silly fellow forgot that, in today’s Brave New
WorldUSA, the Constitution is “just a sheet of paper,” suitable mostly for use as toilet tissue.As for those “less scrupulous members of the right now have another broad brush with which to paint those who are against the war in Iraq” – pfft. It isn’t worth one atom of air or one synaptic firing to worry “What will the Right think?”
They’ll always find someone, somewhere, who’s said something they can get their pissy knickers in a twist over. If the actual utterance isn’t sufficient, they’ll distort it into something more egregious – or, hell, make it up out of whole cloth.
Vile agitprop is the only thing that today’s Right is good at, and it’s the only thing they’re good for.
(And no, John, I don’t include you among members of the Right. You’re a conservative. The Right is no more “conservative” than a Hostess Twinkie is “nutritious.”)
Louise
What a stupid, lazy, offensive column. I especially hate his equating a soldier being angry about volunteering under false pretenses to poor Joel being angry about a pop-up window. Ass.
Kimmitt
Man, good thing Mr. Stein isn’t a US Senator or anything.
kl
It’s a good thing he doesn’t have any sort of real responsibility, yeah. Is that what you meant?
Sock Puppet
W.W.K.R.S.?
(What would Karl Rove Say?)
D. Mason
As someone who considers myself conservative and anti-bush (sometimes revenously) at the same time I really appreciate other people pointing this out. I hate feeling like I’m shouting in the desert.
Olly McPherson
I would say the piece was meant to be satirical. Stein gained new prominence in the L.A. Times Op/Ed page when they tried to make it more flashy to bring in new readers. His schtick is kind of a “I’m a lazy guy who doesn’t pay attention to the news or hold serious opinions” thing. This piece seems to be in that vein, and I think it would be a mistake to view it as serious political discourse.
ppGaz
It’s “asinine.”
HH
Joel Stein’s DKos blog is already set up for him, I see..
HH
“Welcome to the LAT, Mr. Welch. For your first day on the job you have a shitstorm on your hands. Good luck!”
HH
Thank you, CaseyL, for reminding us that the U.S. Constitution guarantees us the right to say anything we want without anyone ever criticizing it.
Stormy70
Like they denounce Bin Laden? 40% of Kossite moonbats think he’s better than Bush. Plus, they enjoy Bin Laden’s talking points.
This Stein guy is bit player, but the right will be able to dine out on this for a while. I am getting the popcorn ready since 2006 is shaping up to be a Moonbatapalooza. We even have Cindy hanging out with the Commies in Venesuela.
Well done, Karl. I bow at your feet.
Sock Puppet
Kind of a paradox at work here.
The people who don’t like our troops want to allow them to do the thing they most want to do, which is leave Iraq and get back to their families.
On the other hand, those who claim to love and care for them also want to leave them to rot in that wretched hellhole for another five years or so.
Sounds like they’re better off with the folks that don’t like them.
HH
“The people who don’t like our troops want to allow them to do the thing they most want to do…”
Good to see that their mind-reading abilities are intact…
rilkefan
Stein wins a coveted “Wanker of the Day” award from Atrios.
Sock Puppet
HH does have a point. There must be some way we can tell if those serving in Iraq want to be there or not. Maybe there should be some sort of poll. Done anonymously, of course.
Dear serviceperson in Iraq. Given the choice, would you:
A) Return to the United States to be with your family?
B) Stay in Iraq and get shot at?
Pretty difficult choice.
Sock Puppet
Of course, if there was to be a similar poll for the HH’s of the world, it might read like this:
Dear domestic current events consumer – If you had a choice, would you have our servicepeople in Iraq:
A) Be allowed to return to the United States to be with their families?
B) Left in Iraq for an indefinite period of time because someday this administration might very well come up with a plausible reason for being there.
Equally tough choice, though I suspect HH might lean to voting “B” because it is not his ass that is on the line.
Otto Man
Just pulling that right out of your ass?
The Other Steve
Dear, please don’t do meth while simultaneously shooting yourself full of crack.
Seriously, you’re out in major league moonbat territory with that statement.
The Other Steve
You’re right. I started looking over his previous columns, his stick seems to be to insult as many people as possible.
It would appear that anybody taking this seriously, probably ought to be spending their time on more important things… like flossing your teeth.
Steve
I take it Ward Churchill’s 15 minutes are finally up, because now a different guy I never heard of is being touted as the Authentic Voice of the Left.
OCSteve
I thought that was a good possibility. I too reviewed his other columns. Even later in the day I could have been convinced of that. Not after reading his interview with HH though. It was not satire – it was how he truly feels.
At this point I’ll chalk it up to appalling ignorance more than malice on his part. His editor and the LAT don’t get that same pass though.
Slide
Actually Atrios picked Stein as Wanker of the Day:
As of now there are over 250 comments at Atrios, the vast majority of which condemn Stein’s comments.
Don Surber
John, guy writes something you call “stupid” and then you bash the “less scrupulous members of the right”
I don’t find that comment very scrupilous.
You act as if Stein is above criticism
Stormy70
If by ass you mean Daily Kos, then yes.
I pulled it from right here. Who do you despise more? Just asking.
OCSteve
Slide:
I formally retracted that when Brad R pointed me to his blog comment (prominent or not). See my 8:24PM comment.
As to Atrios – I’ll only give him half credit because he could not say it without qualifying it, to get in “betrayed by their civilian leadership”.
Blue Neponset
Wow, Stein’s article is a wingnut’s wet dream. I am sure it is proof to them that every single Democrat in the United States and abroad hates our troops, loves Osama Bin Laden and only drinks imported beer.
Well, at least we can finally have a national debate about which political party is more patriotic.
Paddy O'Shea
Looks like Stormy came up with a trick question!
“Who do you hate more, George W. Bush or Osama bin Laden?”
Kind of like having to choose between genital herpes and gonorrhea.
Maybe the wisest choice would be to just avoid Stormy.
Slide
and? You don’t think our troops were betrayed by their civilian leadership? You mean the poor MP’s that were stuck in Abu Garib with not enough training, too few troops, confusing guidelines, and intelligence officers telling that to use dubious techniques to “soften up” the detainees weren’t betrayed?
you mean the dead soldiers that died because they didn’t have the body armor that the Penatagon’s own study says would have saved their lives weren’t betrayed?
You mean the dead and wounded soldiers that had hot searing metal rip their bodies apart because we coudn’t up-armor our humvees and you “go to war with that army you ahave not the army you want”, weren’t betrayed?
You mean the soldiers that have done their stint in Iraq and yet get called up again and yet again because we have too few troops in the army haven’t been betrayed?
You mean the soldiers that thought they completed their service to this nation only to find that they get called back years later when they are in their 40’s and raising a family haven’t been betrayed?
You mean the natioal guardsmen that have been called back time and time again to fight in Iraq with equipment that is sub-standard by all accounts haven’t been betrayed?
You mean the soldiers that find they have to pay for their own means while re-cuperating from horendous life changing injuries haven’t been betrayed?
You mean the soldiers that bravely and pattriotically went to war to “disarm” Iraq from their “tons and tons” of chemical and biological weapons and to prevent the “reconstituted nuclear program” haven’t been betrayed.
You mean the members of the Army which, according to a Penatagon study, is nearing the breaking point, haven’t been betrayed by the failed and incompetent leadership of this adminstration and the civilian members of the Pentagon?
Yeah, The Republicans support our troops. Well, they must, they all have those little yellow ribbons made in China on the back of their oil guzzling SUV’s so they must.
OCSteve
Slide:
Pretty much each of your talking points listed there have been debunked to come extent (some more than others) time and again. It’s not worth going through them all. Suffice it to say that each of the things you have listed has some merit of truth, but many have been stretched way out of context and/or held on to dearly despite evidence to the contrary. Meaning I agree to some extent with many, and disagree completely with some.
The point is that betrayed has a very specific meaning. In this context the meaning would be “To be false or disloyal” or “To lead astray; deceive”. It’s a loaded word and just another variation of the “Bush lied” meme. It is one thing to disagree with policy and decisions made, or to armchair quarterback and note all the things that could have been done better. It is another to attribute some kind of evil motive to them.
The point is Atrios could have just wankered him with no further comment, or even complained that the guy was an idiot because it would just provide fresh ammunition for the right (as I have seen elsewhere). But he used it as an opportunity for that betrayed remark. So yeah – half credit.
If you look at my retraction of my comment to Brad R, I said:
No “yeah but”. What is so hard about that? Recognizing when yourself or someone on your side is wrong without using it as yet another “yeah but” opportunity?
Anderson
Spooky, Cole had the same thought I had re: Rove, though I’m willing to take it more seriously.
I mean, come on, they pay columnists to write puff pieces.
How hard would it be to pay ’em to write Ward-Churchillian garbage?
Olly McPherson
Perhaps the piece wasn’t satirical. But, denunciation aside, Stein does raise an interesting point—if you feel that the troops’ actions in Iraq are part of a horribly flawed scheme, that their presence in the region is making things worse, isn’t there a cognitive dissonance expressed in saying you support them?
Hear me out. I know what we all take support to mean—we don’t want them to get hurt, we think they should be treated with respect and dignity, and I agree. But, leaving aside the issue of whether Bush has done more to jeopardize troops’ health and dignity than any newspaper columnist, every statement supporting the troops can be taken as tacit sympathy for not just their circumstances, but their actions in Iraq, which many of us feel aren’t right.
Maybe Stein’s suggesting it’s just not possible to effectively oppose what the troops are doing while lionizing them as heroes, as only the last point seems to be heard. In saying, “It’s as if the one lesson they took away from Vietnam wasn’t to avoid foreign conflicts with no pressing national interest but to remember to throw a parade afterward,” he’s suggesting that some larger issues trump making our troops feel good about themselves.
Jorge
Olly –
I had similar thoughts. If you think that a group of people are working against progress and creating more dangers for the US than they are stopping, can you truly “support” them? And please, anyone who is making this about treating the troops with anything less than respect or not funding them or taking care of them is building a straw man. Let’s have this discussion with out making it into a screaming match of Hannity talking points versus Rhodes talking points.
As I think about it, the question that I think needs to be asked by anti-war folks is “How do we ensure that our troops are taken care of while at the same time doing everything possible to change the policy and the policy makers that have put them in this position?”
David Rossie
Perhaps the outraged failed to read past the first sentence. There is nothing objectionable about Stein’s column. I don’t support the troops either, just as I don’t support most government employees tasked with jobs that I oppose. That doesn’t mean that I wish them anything other than the best personally; I just oppose their mission. It’s such a simple concept; the outrage is thus hilariously misplaced or genuinely evil, because what kind of person would demand that individuals support something as dire as military action when they clearly feel that such action is wrong?
David Rossie
Perhaps the outraged failed to read past the first sentence. There is nothing objectionable about Stein’s column. I don’t support the troops either, just as I don’t support most government employees tasked with jobs that I oppose. That doesn’t mean that I wish them anything other than the best personally; I just oppose their mission. It’s such a simple concept; the outrage is thus hilariously misplaced or genuinely evil, because what kind of person would demand that individuals support something as dire as military action when they clearly feel that such action is wrong?
Stormy70
Put up some candidates and get them elected to office. That’s how you change policy. Put together a platform, get out there and debate it’s merits. Walking around in protests with the freaks doesn’t do much good, besides making the right chuckle.
Jorge
Stormy-
Those are excellent points. However, what do you do if the status quo remains? That is one of the issues that faces a minority party in any two party state. Because while the Democrats might be out of power, they also represent the will of about 45-48% of the voting block.
So, when you are slightly outnumbered, do you just cave in to the will of the very slight majority? And of course, this issue extends way beyond Iraq and is one that Republicans must surely understand given that they were in the same situation in the recent past.
But yes, ultimately the goal is to win back the majority. It will be very interesting to see government grind to a halt if the Dems take back the Congress.