PIERRE, S.D., Feb. 22 — Setting up South Dakota to become the first state in 14 years to start a direct legal attack on Roe v. Wade, lawmakers voted on Wednesday to outlaw nearly all abortions.
…Some opponents of abortion rights celebrated what they called a bold and brave move and lauded South Dakota for taking the lead in what they said they hoped would become a series of states to challenge Roe, the 1973 decision that made abortion legal.
As written the law does not contain exemptions for rape, incest or the woman’s health.
For decades the Roe battle has amounted to a dog chasing a car down an endless suburban street, a situation that has worked out pretty well for the dog. Laws like this came up all the time which sounded completely outrageous, because everybody knew that they wouldn’t make it to the governor’s desk or they’d be overturned on appeal. They basically served as fundraising letters for lawmakers representing particularly medieval districts.
So, what happens when the dog catches the car?
Mr Furious
You’re right. This is, once again, a law designed to fail. These neanderthals get to act like they’re doing something, whip up the pro-lifers to a frenzy and then cry foul when the Court throws them out on their ear.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
Jim Allen
He finds out that tire treads don’t taste as good as he thought they would.
tzs
Has no one thought about unforseen consequences of this legislation? Obviously not. “Sorry, we don’t care if your not having this abortion means you’ll end up in a coma for the rest of your life, that’s the breaks.”
Also I think there’s something in there about defining “life from conception.”
That’ll be great. What are they planning to do about miscarriages or stillbirths? Charge the woman with accidental manslaughter? Anything that goes wrong with any pregnancy will become an excuse for police involvement.
According to them, my mother carried out accidental manslaughter three times. You could even argue that she carried out voluntary manslaughter, since she knew she had a problem carrying kids to term. And I’m sure we’ll be seeing a few nasty divorce cases where something like that will be the accusation….
I wish someone would invent an artificial womb already.
Don Surber
“So, what happens when the dog catches the car?”
LOL
These people are playing with fire
What happens when an Abortion Amendment passes in 38 states?
Pb
The dog drags it back and buries it in the back yard?
Lines
The car bites back.
Secret, private, sanitary clean surgical rooms set up around the country and run by an underground cabal of liberals and libertarians that contains armed guards and armored facilities.
If you really want to go down the path of possible futures, of course.
Ben
It’s going to be more like Kelo, where you have a congress that lacks the stones to make a real law and the court that finally says “we’re not going to cover you any more.” South Dakota will pass it, the Supreme Court will uphold it, and the voters in 50 states will go apeshit as local legislators race to see who can be the next one to test Roe.
In the meantime, a smart Dem in the congress will introduce legislation to make something like Roe an actual legislated law, and if it gets to the SC they’ll uphold it. Don’t think that the Dems wouldn’t love this to become the big issue it was in the ’80s again…
Mr. Moderate
When the dog catches the car the jig is up. The public who mocks the power of the religious right as being a tempest in a teapot will finally wake up. If they think they’ll be able to con the Guiliani Republicans or moderates into voting for them any longer, they’ll have another thing coming. Remember all the major Republican figure heads run on wanting to overturn the right to an abortion. Most people think that is as realistic as overturning the right to interracial marriage. They’ll stop ignoring this point when the bans actually start going into effect. If Bush gets one more supreme court appointment, it will go into effect. At that point the Republicans will have hell to pay. I’m looking forward to it personally–people finally waking up to the not-so-thinly veiled message of the Republican party on social issues.
Lines
Maybe we’ll find out how to replace Supreme’s that have a lifetime appointment?
One can only hope.
Richard 23
Didn’t Mann Coulter have a suggestion or two about that?
Mr Furious
Mann Coulter. [chuckle] That’s good…
EL
There will be pregnant women who wind up in life threatening medical situations, and are denied an abortion. When one of those women dies or has severe permanent injury, it’s going to blow up in their faces. Even more so if the fetus also dies in the process.
And then there’s the question of toxemia of pregnancy. With better prenatal care, this problem is rarer, but it occurs. There are times the decision comes down to delivering the baby too early, and knowing the baby is likely to die, or waiting, and risking both mother and baby. I haven’t read the bill, but will doctors who deliver the baby way before time to save the mother be liable to prosecution?
And depending how the bill is written, what about ectopic pregnancies? Will removing one be considered an abortion? If not, why not? It’s termination of a pregnancy, after all, although one that is almost uniformly fatal to the mother, and has the most miniscule chance of producing a live baby.
Anyone read the bill who can give the particulars?
neil
So, what happens when the dog catches the car?
Sheesh, haven’t you ever seen a dog chase a car before? When it catches up, it slows down to let the car ahead a little, so it can chase it again.
This answer is metaphorical as well as literal — I live on a dirt road.
Richard Bottoms
Going to be a bloodbath at the polls.
neil
Don’t SD lawmakers and governors need to take an oath of office which includes defending the Constitution? And isn’t the task of interpreting the Constitution left up to judges? And so isn’t passing this blatantly un-Constitutional law basically flipping the bird to the Constitution? Why can’t they be impeached for this?
Lines
neil: Impeachment is SOOOO 1998. Get with the program, its un-Patriotic to even talk about any sort of impeachment in our post 9/11 age.
Why do you seem so stuck in a pre-9/11 mentality?
EL
I’ve found a few articles that elaborate a bit more, but not the bill itself. It apparently does contain a provision to save the life of the mother, but not for any lesser health issue.
From a medical point of view, it’s going to be interesting how to decide when that “save the life” exception kicks in. What does the mortality rate of the condition have to be to decide an abortion is life-saving? Ectopic pregnancy is likely to qualify, as is toxemia. What about diabetes or other problems? Is a mortality rate of 20% enough? 5%? 1%?
Steve
I doubt state lawmakers take an oath to defend the US Constitution.
The Other Steve
I’ll tell ya what is going to happen…
South Dakota’s economy is going to continue going into the shitter.
Seriously, they’ve got a major problem with growth. They’re entirely dependent upon Agriculture, Tourism, and an Air Force base. None of which are growth industries.
So the young people leave the state. Think this is going to help encourage them to stay?
Krista
And guess what that leads to, boys and girls? That’s right! The birth control pill, the IUD, and any other form of hormonal contraception would be considered forms of abortion, and made illegal.
Yay! So now, in South Dakota, if you get raped, you probably will get pregnant (unless your rapist uses a condom – doubtful)! And if you get pregnant, you have to carry the baby to term! Why? Because your physical, emotional and mental health doesn’t matter – nothing gets in the way of South Dakota baby-making!
Jesus H. Christ on toast…
sal
I’ve never understood the exception for incest. Presumably, the number of pregnancies resulting from incest are low, and virtually all presumably qualify as rape. If a pregnancy results from consensual incest, whatever else your take on abortion, I don’t see why an exception should be made for it.
Pb
sal,
Presumably, the number of pregnancies resulting from ‘consensual incest’ are *even lower*, but don’t worry–just like gay marriage, this abortion thing isn’t compulsory, it’s voluntary.
jg
If it’ll make people think twice about having sex without procreation then it’s worth it. So many sinners.
Steve
The exception probably exists for the same reason prohibitions against incest exist in the first place – historically, society has viewed the products of incest as somewhat icky creations who tend to carry with them all manner of genetic flaws. I agree that it’s a bit of an anachronism, but I’m not ready to start fighting for the repeal of incest laws just yet.
rend
generally,, they get hit by the tire..
Mr Furious
Pay attention, sal, there’s no exception for rape in this law either…
Paul L.
I got a question for you pro-choice and anti-death penalty liberals.
How do you justify the following contradictions?
Doctors can refuse to take part in a state execution due to ethical concerns.
But Walmart should be required to carry the morning after pill in its pharmacy despite ethical concerns.
By order of the state
The citing of foreign law as a valid reason for not allowing capital punishment for crimes committed while under the age of 18.
Roper v. Simmons
But the citing of foreign law is not valid reason for not allowing abortion on demand at any time prior to viability.
Scalia, Breyer and the Citation of Foreign Law
Steve
Paul,
1) Because they are two different issues.
2) Because they are two different issues.
I hope this response was helpful to you.
Paul L.
Thank you for that indepth analysis.
How/Why are they different? Other than you support one and not the other.
Zifnab
It’s a rather simple issue. Firstly, Walmart is not required to carry a morning after pill. There is no current law forcing any pharmacy to stock it’s shelves with a given product. What’s more, no Walmart employees are required to administer the pills any more than Walmart employees who sell guns are required to shoot anyone. When an eighteen-year-old girl comes in to buy the morning after pill and is refused, but a forty-year-old woman comes in to buy the same pills and is allowed the purchase, that’s called discrimination. When a company employee refuses to sell anyone a product clearly situated on their shelves and/or enters into some preachy condemnation of the customer’s actions, that’s called harassment.
None of these issues present themselves in a death penalty case. The doctors in this case are refusing to personally administer a complex medical procedure. They’re objecting to actively performing government sanctioned euthenasia. Your analogy might be better served in comparing voluntary euthenasia to birth control. But then you’d probably encounter a number of individuals stating that voluntary euthenasia SHOULD be allowed which would put your arguement somewhat on its ear.
Krista
Paul – because an execution kills a fully formed, realized, aware, and sentient human being. The morning-after pill simply changes the lining of the uterus so that an egg, IF fertilized (which doesn’t always happen, as we know), cannot implant. By all standard medical knowledge, life begins when the zygote implants in the uterus.
The first is knowingly ending the life of an aware human being.
The second is preventing pregnancy.
As Steve said, they are two completely and utterly separate issues.
So here’s a question for you: How can some people be FOR the death penalty, but against the morning-after pill? Why are they so quick to believe that life actually begins the second fertilization occurs, and are desperate to protect every single fertilized egg, but will happily have another human being (who once was a fertilized egg, you know) to death? Answer me that.
Vladi G
Presumably the doctors aren’t asking to be paid by the state for performing the execution, despite refusing to perform it. Whereas at Wal Marts and other such locations, pharmacists are demanding to be able to refuse to dispense a product that they carry, AND demanding that they not be fired for such a refusal.
Hey, remember when part of civil disobedience was paying a consequence for your disobedience?
Steve
I would be interested to know on what basis these doctors were “required” to provide services at the execution. Is there a law in California that says, if you have a medical degree, a court can pluck you off the street and tell you to assist at an execution? Since Paul is convinced there is an inconsistency, I’m sure he has an in-depth knowledge of the facts, so maybe he can explain this to me.
As for Wal-Mart, some states have a law that says any pharmacy that wants a license needs to stock each and every drug that is commonly requested. This type of requirement is part and parcel of being a regulated profession. Wal-Mart broke the law and tried to claim that the morning-after pill isn’t commonly requested, which is obvious bullshit, so now they have to comply with the law. In states that don’t have such a law, Wal-Mart is permitted to sell whatever it feels like selling, as far as I know.
Vladi G
They’re way ahead of you. They’re doing this to ensure that many more people are born to replace the people that are leaving. They’re just not to keen on actually caring for any of the new people that are born.
Krista
Excellent point.
Paul L.
No law in Massachusetts but the Massachusetts Board of Pharmacy requires it.
“Wal-Mart now carries the pill only in Illinois, where it is required to do so under state law.”
Wal-Mart Ordered to Stock Emergency Contraception
I have nothing against the morning after pill. But I do not agree with forcing companies/people who have a objection to it to sell it.
If you owned a magazine stand, should you be required to sell Playboy even if you object to it’s portrayal of woman.
Yes Krista, A fully formed, realized, aware, and sentient “human being” (Michael Morales) who was convicted of the following:
Smashed a 17 year-old victim in the face two dozen times with a claw hammer
Dragged victim face first into a field
Raped the severaly beaten girl then stabbed her 4 times
Stole $11 from her – after beating her with a hammer, stabbing her and raping her – which he used to buy some beer and smokes for a party he went to.
That we would erase this shining light from the world saddens me greatly. What he did means nothing.
Don Surber
Just a thought to throw out there for all you worried about abortion and contraception in South Dakota: What about abstinence? It is not as if there are not other choices
tzs
Don, there’s this little thing called R-A-P-E. But since you’re a man, maybe you don’t worry about it.
yet another jeff
The only way the death penalty and the morning after pill are the same is if one subscribes to the idea that birth control is murder.
Vladi G
It’s called consumer protection and barriers to entry. Pharmaceutical retail is a heavily regulated industry. Magazine retail is not. If you hold yourself out to be a pharmacist, there are rules you must follow. It’s the same as doctors and lawyers regulating their industries. If I were a pharmacist, I wouldn’t want some other guy calling himself a pharmacist if he refused to carry or provide all kinds of medicines and drugs. You may disagree. In Massachussetts and Illinois, they agree with me. You can take up your magazine issue with the magazine retailers guild.
Are you seriously a real journalist? Because I can’t believe that any real publication would hire someone so stupid to work for them.
Andrew
Sweet! A new idiot test, and so soon after Intelligent Design too!
Question: Can you tell the difference between a few cells and a living human being?
Richard Bottoms
Actually it can happen to us too as I am well aware. We just don’t get pregnant from it.
ChristieS
Hey, Don. I’m a 43-year old married woman who has diabetes. At my age and with my illness, if I get pregnant, odds are good that I could die.
Are you telling me that I should not have sex with my lawfully wedded husband for the next 40 years or so? Or at least the next 10-15 years, dependent on full menopause?
Yanno, all this shit could be avoided if women and men came with an off-switch for fertility. Not intelligently designed, IMO.
Perry Como
If people like Don Surber couldn’t get pregnant, how would we get Texans?
yet another jeff
Grrr…Perry Como must die! Again!
yet another jeff
The magazine analogy is no good. If there was a law requiring magazine stands to carry commonly sought after magazines and the magazine stand’s corporate office refused, they’d be penalized and made to comply with the law. If a different magazine stand carried the magazine but the person working the stand refused to sell a given magazine due to moral objections, then that person should be fired.
Doctors don’t want to participate in an execution, that’s nothing like stocking a heavy dose of birth control.
Krista
ChristieS – thank you, you answered that better than I ever could.
Don, Don, Don. Are you taking stupid pills today? Not all women who want birth control are unmarried teenagers. Surprise! I’m a 31-year-old woman living with my common-law husband of 4 years. We’re not financially or emotionally ready for kids. So if I get you right, we shouldn’t have sex at all until we’re ready to procreate? What about couples who never want kids? Should they remain virgins until death?
Once again, I will ask you if you are sniffing glue, or if you’re just being deliberately idiotic in order to get us all riled up. If it’s the latter, I would ask that you stop. This South Dakota thing is real, and women are going to suffer because of it, and we are angry enough without you poking us with a stick and giggling.
Krista
Paul L. – Just to throw a monkey wrench into your thinking. Not all liberals are pro-choice and anti-death-penalty. In very select cases, where there is not the least bit of doubt of guilt, and the crimes are horrendous (i.e. Paul Bernardo), I actually would support the death penalty. I think that the U.S. grossly overuses the death penalty, however. So that little rant about Michael Morales was wasted on me.
I still think it has nothing to do with birth control, however.
The Other Steve
Well, since I actually listen to the radio now and then, and I heard the Doctor from California explain their hesitation.
It’s got nothing to do with opposition to the death penalty. The Doctors aren’t taking a position one way or another on the death penalty. They just don’t think that a doctor working at the prison should become known as Dr. Death because he also handles the executions. Something about bad public relations and making the prisoners they are trying to help feel uneasy.
Life is full of contradictions, and shades of grey.
When you start thinking in black and white, you just make yourself seem like a deranged fool.
Andrew
Ex-gay circuit parties in Oklahoma?
Zifnab
According to various passages in the Bible, man and woman are expected by God to multiply and spread across the face of the earth. So yes, if you are lawfully marriaged to your husband of X years and you want to have sex but don’t want to have kids A) you’ve already sinned against God for not wanting to reproduce and B) if you’re less concerned about physical pleasure than spiritual fulfillment you will learn to suck it up and go without.
That’s the New Age Christian Way. If you don’t like it, we would prefer you move to a country more suitable to your demented, moralless, soulless, slutty, “just-cause-I’m-married-means-I’m-suddenly-allowed-to-have-sex-now” ways.
tzs
Talk at several sites about starting a boycott of S. D. tourism and companies. Plus with letters to relevant state gov’t offices saying why they’re not buying/visiting.
Considering how much S. D.’s economy depends on tourism, this could get amusing.
Steve
Paul never answered this, by the way. Is it possible that he’s just crying “gotcha!” based on some blog post he read, without having any idea about the underlying facts? I’m starting to think so.
The Other Steve
Agreed. If Paul L. butchered his mother with a hatchet, and then turned on his sister raped her and strangled her with her own entrails… while forcing his brother watched, and the police showed up finding him with the hatchet in his hand and his DNA all over the crime scene.
I would have no problem with the death penalty.
I just question the use of the death penalty against a man whose house burned down killing his wife and child, with no clear evidence that he started the fire and it wasn’t just an accident. Just because he wasn’t someone you’d want to go drink beer with.
So to be clear, I’m not going to care if Paul is executed if he does all those horrible things, but it’s not because I think he’s an idiot.
I hope we all have that clear.
The Other Steve
What if I continue to have sex anyway, but still vote Republican because I’m concerned about this applying towards other people just not myself.
Is that ok?
The Other Steve
You got my support on that.
I’ll write a letter to the South Dakota tourism board tonight to let them know.
This isn’t like Alabama, which has no reason for anybody to even consider going there. This is South Dakota’s crown jewel.
Surber Sycophant
Silly girls, don’t you realize that your sole purpose in life is to sexually satisfy your husbands and serve as baby factories?
EL
Krista Says:
And guess what that leads to, boys and girls? That’s right! The birth control pill, the IUD, and any other form of hormonal contraception would be considered forms of abortion, and made illegal
I found and read the bill, and it specifically exempts prescriptions for birth control when it is too early for the pregnancy to be detected by normal means. (So they haven’t completely taken leave of their political senses.)That exempts the morning after pill.
As to those above who feel Walmart’s pain on being forced to carry the morning after pill – the issue is not the drug itself, they already carry that as birth control pills. It’s the dose and timing that change. I like the laws that say if you’re going to carry (and profit from) birth control pills, you must also dispense the morning after version.
Paul Wartenberg
You call the insurance company, tell them the dog took it. The insurance company pays for a new car! And then take it out of your hide on the premiums…
Bob In Pacifica
Don Surber and Paul L have demonstrated in their posts Wilhelm Reich’s theory of “sex-economy.” In his book THE MASS PSYCHOLOGY OF FASCISM, he says:
“Fascism is only the organized political expression of the structure of the average man’s character. It is the basic emotional attitude of the suppressed man…”
But fascism, our current brand of Republicanism, and all religions I’ve had much acquaintance with, all involve the same mechanism. The repression of sex as the fundamental means of suppression. It’s taught to each person as an infant, and drilled into each of us as children. The guilt and fear produce anger.
The denial of sex as a part of one’s life for anything other than procreation, as Don Surber suggests with offering abstinence as an alternative. Paul L accepts the idea of “life” as being the issue here, disregarding all science surrounding the development of human fetuses, because the definition of life beginning at conception allows sexuality to be punished and suppressed. And so we go down the list. Anti-abortion, anti-homosexuality, anti-pornography, anti-sex education, anti-stem cell research. It’s all about suppressing sexuality. Paul L isn’t pro-life. He’s anti-sex.
ChristieS
LOL…BTDT; got the stretch marks to prove it. Now, aren’t you glad I shared? :D
Tim F.
EL,
I wouldn’t want to delete a post that has substance in it so I winnowed down the blockquote instead. I apologize if you meant to respond to somebody else.
Krista
ChristieS – I won’t ask if the stretch marks are from serving as a baby factory, or from sexually satisfying your husband… :)
Bob In Pacifica
“So, what happens when the dog catches the car?”
If he’s got his teeth into the tire it’s “thump…thump…thump…thump…”
Ancient Purple
Isn’t that SOP for the Republican Party already?
Sam Hutcheson
Abstinence? You have got to be kidding me.
Ancient Purple
Sure there are other choices, but we are interested in them.
After all, we Lefties are rooting for civil war, right?
The Other Steve
LIBBY NEWS ALERT!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11525309/
He’s now claiming as his defense that he’s above the law, and Fritzy has no authority to prosecute him.
tzs
Bob in Pacifica–
“If he’s got his teeth in the tire it’s “thump…thump…thump…thump..””
Wonderful. You owe me a new keyboard.
BIRDZILLA
The wussies at NOW and the ACLU and the rest of the prodeath (EXCEPT FOR CONVICTED MURDERERS)bunch will probibly take it to the 9th curcutt court and try to find it unconstittunional
The Other Steve
You’re right. We could lock up all the women, so they are not available to the men. Then we could like impregnate the women using turkey basters, so that we never have to worry about that nasty sex thing ever again.
Steve
I’m confident that the brilliant minds at Powerline will be analyzing this new argument and will offer us their most considered judgment. Who can predict which side they will come out on?!? Surely not me.
Mr Furious
I’m not one of those liberals…
Hard-core pro-choice, and I have no problem with the death penalty, in theory. I have issues with the implementation of the DP, and support a moratorium til the bugs are worked out, but otherwise hang ’em high.
I’d like you to explain the typical Republican mindset of pro-life and pro-DP. That’s what I call hypocisy.
Barbar
Mr Furious, the Republicans can say something about “innocent life.”
I see a real contradiction between being pro-life and pro-war though. If you support a war, you’re saying that you view human life as expendable in the pursuit of certain goals. Not just potential human life, or a collection of cells, but full-blown fully-developed undeniable human life. How do you turn around and tape a “LIFE” sticker over your mouth because some woman has a first-trimester abortion?
Steve
Basically, you get to be pro-life and pro-war by pretending that all those innocent lives lost during war are just unavoidable collateral damage, and gosh, we really try as hard as possible to avoid civilian deaths, so it’s not as if we’re intentionally killing them. Whereas in the real world, we know that civilian deaths are a feature of war, not a bug.
Bottom line is, everyone loves to pat themselves on the back by talking about the “hypocrisy” of the other side, but not a single person’s mind has ever been changed by supposedly brilliant arguments like “how can you be pro-choice and anti-death penalty???” so I kinda wish people would stop wasting everyone’s time by making them.
ppGaz
His last thought is: How long before the car overplays this story?
ChristieS
::grin:: bit of both, a bit of both.
Krista
LOL!
(We’re both wearing evil grins right now, aren’t we?)
Bob In Pacifica
How long before the dog overplays the story?
The car that got away.
The Other Steve
It is For the Children!
Is that not enough to get you to support the argument?
Vladi G
It’s dogs catching cars that force John to keep voting Republican.
Ancient Purple
The dog is in the last throes of chasing the car.
Bob In Pacifica
General Shinseki says that we need at least 400,000 dogs if we want to catch that car.
Leonidas
This law has a 50-50 chance of making it through the Suprmes, IMHO. It may still be one vote short, but another death/retirement should change that. This could be an important moment for the life movement. And yet all I see hear is jokes. Go figure.
Steve
Do you expect me to be happy for all the women your “life movement” wants to kill? Why don’t you go joke about poisoning Justice Stevens or something.
rachel
The old ways are good enough. Exposure worked for the ancient Romans, Greeks as birth control; there’s no reason it shouldn’t work now. Besides, judging by the lack of fundie support for social programs for children of poor and unwed mothers, I’d say that once the brat’s been dropped, they don’t really give a toss what happens to it. A bit hard on the mother, I suppose, but if she didn’t want to run the risks of pregnancy, she should have been born a man.
John S.
Ann Coulter, is that you?
StupidityRules
There are other choices. Just ask Dr Hager.
Kimmitt
He gets a coathanger.