Like John I get annoyed when people make ridiculous comparisons between Iraq and other wars. Some examples:
The Crusades
[T]his crusade, this war on terrorism, is going to take awhile. [President George Bush in what one hopes was an unintentional slip, 9/15/01]
Just before Boykin was put in charge of the hunt for Osama bin Laden and then inserted into Iraqi prison reform, he was a circuit rider for the religious right. He allied himself with a small group called the Faith Force Multiplier that advocates applying military principles to evangelism. Its manifesto – Warrior Message – summons “warriors in this spiritual war for souls of this nation and the world … ”
Boykin staged a travelling slide show around the country where he displayed pictures of Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. “Satan wants to destroy this nation, he wants to destroy us as a nation, and he wants to destroy us as a Christian army,” he preached. They “will only be defeated if we come against them in the name of Jesus“. It was the reporting of his remarks at a revival meeting in Oregon that made them a subject of brief controversy. [General William Boykin, Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence, unambiguously invoking the Crusades]
World War II
Invoking the spirit of Franklin D. Roosevelt, President Bush on Tuesday cast the war in Iraq as the modern-day moral equivalent of the struggle against Nazi fascism and Japanese imperialism in World War II, arguing that the United States cannot retreat without disastrous consequences. [8/30/05]
Turning our backs on postwar Iraq today would be the modern equivalent of handing postwar Germany back to the Nazis. [Donald Rumsfeld, 3/19/06]
The Cold War
[Speaking at the Harry S. Truman Presidential Museum and Library, Rumsfeld said] that America’s impatience and political division over the war on terror mirrors disagreements during the Cold War. He said that during the Cold War the nation was tired after World War II and not in the mood “for more global involvement.”During the Cold War, he said, “the future then too was unclear, the tasks often seemed insurmountable, and it was difficult to view things with the perspective that only history can offer.”
He said President Truman and other American leaders pressed ahead in the confrontation against communism, bolstering democracies in Western Europe. [3/6/06, via]
Plus teary indirect references by the President to every feelgood conflict imaginable.
Critics have compared Iraq with:
We humans tend to argue by way of analogies. Ethicists generally operate, for example, by taking a questionable action and then comparing it to a clearly acceptable action and a clearly unacceptable action, and seeing which one is more similar.
If we want to play the which-conflict-is-more-similar game I’d have to go with Vietnam rather than Afghanistan. The government’s dishonest salesmanship, the obvious military superiority on our part, the long-burning counterinsurgency, the gradual public disillusionment and the problematic relationships with neighboring countries all smell similar enough to make a useful analogy. Not the same, obviously, but enough so that we can make some effort to learn from our mistakes. This field dispatch from Soldiers for the Truth (front page, no permalink) does not encourage me:
” Operation Swarmer was compromised by the Iraqis. As soon as Iraqi units left their barracks, their soldiers and local police watching movements were on cell phones. Orders are not even issued to Iraqi units until 1 hr prior to loading onto trucks and slicks. The insurgents were tipped of, people we interviewed in the area stated the insurgent cells and cell leaders abruptly left 3 hrs before we even arrived. This operation was an exercise in PR on how well the Iraqi forces are taking the fight to the enemy, but had little operational success.”
[NOTE: After the Viet Nam war we discovered that every tactical operation of battalion size or larger, that took place after August of 1965, was compromised. There was no, repeat no, effective OPSEC, due to the penetration of South Vietnamese military by the North Vietnamese intelligence services.]
Critics of the Iraq war often pointed out that the president had surrounded himself with unrepentant Vietnam boosters who slearned all of the wrong lessons from history. It seemed logical that people who thought that we made no mistakes in Vietnam would find a way to make them again. What do you know, they did.
zzyzx
This weekend I was listening to NPR and heard both Rumsfeld and the protestors. I realized that I’ve reached the point where no matter what the argument is about the war, I’m likely to disagree with it.
Right now our choices are leave now so Iraq can completely fall apart or stay indefinitely at a cost of billions of dollars – not to mention lessening the ability for the military to be used in more important conflicts and weakening the National Guard. All we can hope for now is a face saving solution of some sorts.
That’s a reason why anti-war protests might be becoming anti-Bush protests. When you’re trapped in a situation with no easy way out, sometimes you’re going to blame the person who got you into it.
Steve
It seems to me the “war on terror” is comparable to the Cold War in many ways, the exception being that we are the ones who will go broke if we don’t choose a more rational course.
Ancient Purple
Don’t forget that Operation Swarmer was also a big PR stunt. Here is what Casey said on Meet the Press yesterday:
Your tax dollars at work.
DougJ
Well said.
Jim Allen
Just out of curiosity, Tim F., what colors did you use to tie-dye your hemp t-shirt?
Tim F.
I was too busy trading bong hits with Chuck Hagel.
Jim Allen
Nice to see someone’s weekend was productive.
D. Mason
Well, since the U.S. is becoming like the U.S.S.R. in so many other ways(despotic government rotting from the inside with corruption, silencing dissenters, torture, rendition etc.) I suppose it makes sense to cripple ourselves financialy fighting a war that can’t really be won.
scs
I vote for the The Athenian invasion of Syracuse.
Jim Allen
Why am I not surprised that scs would vote for invasion?
Tim F.
SCS, do you know how the Syracuse gambit turned out for Athens?
capelza
Ohhhhhh…she gets all historical. How about Alexander in India..the battle of Multan. His troops wouldn’t go, so Alexander leaps on the wall by himself! And disappears over the side…into almost certain death. Going out on the Sheild of Achilles!
Wait, bad analogy…I just can’t work the plastic turkey into it…never mind.
DougJ
The Republicans have become very skilled with semantics, that’s all I can say. Witness this from Dick Cheney
Deceptive but technically true — he drafted himself.
scs
No, but I’m sure you’re going to tell us, with a little Latin thrown in.
Krista
Maybe it could be the Plastic Turkey of Achilles? You’re a smart cookie, I’m sure you can figure something out.
DougJ
Scs says something funny and you all take pot shots at her. Where’s the love, people?
srv
And use the same rationales to blame others for their own failures. It isn’t that others want them to fail, it’s because it’s the only thing they’re good at. What else can you do but whine about Cindy and Tie-dyes?
ppGaz
I too listened to Cheney on FTN Sunday morning.
All I can say is, the Twilight Zone had nothing on Cheney when it comes to the construction of and fealty to a parallel universe, an alternative reality that has no connection to the real world that you and I live in.
Watching him sit there and cycle through the various talking points and delusions was a surreal experience.
Even if, by some strange twist of fate, and by virtue of some gross abandonment of disbelief, we could argue that he is even half right about the subjects he spoke of, one cannot construct a rationale for surrending government to a man like that and to men and women who think like him. Democracy …. ours, not Iraq’s … cannot survive that kind of thing. The smarmy, smug, don’t-believe-your-lying-eyes browbeating simply will not hold the country together if we are to be a democracy.
I simply will not be governed by people like him. I don’t trust him, I don’t like him, and I don’t believe him. If he’s right, then get me somebody I can trust to explain it to me. Otherwise, these motherfuckers are fired.
capelza
no…sadly…not at my best right now, but,I know what my next tie-dyed hemp t-shirt is gonna have on the front! The Plastic Turkey of Achilles!!!
As for which war this can can be compared to…well, I know it’s all the rage, but Vietnem. Military guys can argue all they want about how it’s NOt, but I’m telling you…it sure fucking FEELS the same way in this country. I have seen this all before…and it dragged on for years.
Krista
Fantastic. We can get a logo done up, and sell hemp t-shirts and biodegradable bongs off of the DNC website.
capelza
I’ll call Dean on my secret shoe phone right now…he’ll love it!
Krista
Don’t forget your earplugs. I remember reading somewhere that he yells.
Good thing you guys didn’t get him as President, eh?
Tim F.
SCS,
Here are the last three paragraphs from the Wikipedia entry on the Athenian Syracuse expedition. It seems a bit pointless to use Latin when talking about the Greek empire.
I’m perfectly pleased if you like the Syracuse analogy but I find it more than a bit surprising.
scs
Well Tim, slowly but surely, your leftie logic has worn me down with its undenialable constructual solidity- and so, if you can’t beat ’em, join ’em, I say. E pluribus unum.
Jay C
Well, while I myself feel that the Iraq conflict IS most like Vietnam (not preceisely, of course, but close enough for Government work) – I’ll cast a sentimental vote for the Athenian Invasion of Syracuse: if only because it would put that pompous blowhard (and unregenerate warflogger) Victor Davis Hanson on the defensive, to have to use his considerable Classical learning to defend one of Antiquity’s most famous military clusterf*cks.
Oh, and srv: it was John, not Tim who was whining about “hemp tie-dyes” – though when I get mine, I DO want the Plastic Turkey of Achilles on it – kewl.
DougJ
Tim — that story about Athens could be read as a cautionary tale about the dangers of too much democracy. Are you sure that it isn’t Bush supporters who cite the comparison?
Pb
Carthago delenda est.
ImJohnGalt
Does that mean France is going to join the insurgents?
Pb
Tim F.,
Let’s hear it for some random protester, just because he might be right about how al-Qaeda’s strategy hasn’t changed that much.
scs
Que sera sera
ImJohnGalt
What would Bush’s equivalent to Cato’s omnipresent tagline be?
“9/11, bitches!”?
ppGaz
is the Plastic Turkey of Achilles related to the Big Clucking Chicken now appearing on tv commercials?
Krista
da mi basia mille, deinde centum,
dein mille altera, dein secunda centum,
Krista
No, but he is related to the Large Braying Ass now appearing in the White House.
ImJohnGalt
Let us live, my Lesbia and Love? Interesting. Just further proof to me that every internet thread will reach steady state either on Nazism or Lesbianism.
ppGaz
“I can’t comment on an ongoing investigation.”
ppGaz
Okay, I’ll take “B”.
ImJohnGalt
Tough to inspire the citizenry with that one, ppGaz. Of course, Scotty uses it as a soporific.
Pb
ImJohnGalt,
“9/11 changed everything.”
The Other Steve
I liked Kissinger’s response to Rumsfeld on the Nazi analogy.
Of course the fruitcakes over at redstate are claiming this is CNN’s bias, and they’re quoting him out of context. :-)
ImJohnGalt
Oooh, Pb – good one! It’s even appropriate, as Cato used to attach his to every speech, even if it had nothing to do with the topic. Bush uses his even when he’s talking about brush clearing on the ranch.
SeesThroughIt
Wow, you could make a million dollars selling those to trustafarians.
Al Maviva
The Athenian invasion of Syracuse? Well, if the Syracusans screwed up Alcibiades’ brackets as badly as they screwed mine up last weekend, I’m sure it was regrets all around. The winner was probably some wench named Philomena in marketing, who picked the Scicilians because she loved the azure blue uniforms…
ImJohnGalt
Al, heh. I blame Rony Seikaly. Wasn’t he Greek, too? Hmmm.
D. Mason
With comparing Iraq to other wars I believe the bottom line is this: Throughout history hubristic tyrants have pursued wars of empire in which they grossly underestimated their opponent(s) and subsoquently got the shit kicked out of them. Often leading to the downfall of their nation/kingdom/empire.
One doesn’t need to be a historian or even well educated to think of atleast a few examples. WWII, The soviet invasion of Afghanistan, Vietnam. Plenty of Americans have vivid memories of it happening in their own lifetimes, quite a few have closely watched it play out on their TV screens, 3 or 4 times. The warning signs are all there so when people start making comparisons, noone should be surprised.
Krista
ImJohnGalt – you do realize that Catullus was male, right?
And hey, even if he were female, a beautiful love poem is a beautiful love poem, and deserves to be recognized as such.
ImJohnGalt
Krista, I know, I know. But he said “Lesbia”. [cue Beavis and Butthead chortling, here].
I should know better than to respond to posts at the end of a 2 hundred post thread, but in case anyone cares, there are some new posts back here.
The Other Steve
Si me rogas, potes abire et tu ipse cacare.
Nikki
With all this Latin being thrown about, all I can say is thank god for Google!
The Other Steve
Inquit Quod!
capelza
He actually was from Lebanon, but his family moved to Greece because of the troubles. I remember reading something about a 10 y/o Rony showing up with a gun and the parents figured it was time to get out.
Krista
ImJohnGalt – I threw my 2 cents in on that other thread. Particularly in regard to the Leaping Lizard thinking that we voted out the Liberals because we wanted to make nicey-nice with Bush.
guav
Would the Israeli invasion and occupation of Lebanon not be a far better comparison than either of those?
Andrei
There’s a third option, and one that people need to consider more seriously. One that follows the Powell doctrine of you broke it you bought it.
The draft.
As much as I hate it, and as much as I’m opposed to the war, there’s simply no way you can contain a country of 25 million with 150,000 troops. Overwheliming force is needed, and if we don’t get on the ball and fix our mistake by filling our ranks with bodies to fight, we’ll lose much worse. In long term terrorist activity, Iran and South Korea watching us fumble an easy catch, and economic costs that are going to make all of our children third rate contributors once India and China crush us in the near future.
And the first set of people drafted should be every single congressman’s blood kin. Not just The Bush Twins, but Chlesea too.
The fact so many people won’t broach the subjct of the draft which is imho the real test for whether the public can stomach war just tells us we really aren’t fighting one.
jg
Didn’t Ho Chi Minh say that too?
zzyzx
We’re fighting a war if and only if, saying so means you can shut up people who disagree with you and win elections.
Pb
Andrei,
True, but I think Jack Murtha is probably the only man on the hill with the stomach for that sort of reasoning.
Tulkinghorn
I’m still trying to figure out the exact correlation between Andrew Sullivan and Alcibades…
Sullivan is now getting accused rooting for the enemy, so that has to be worth something.
Pb
What do you mean, ‘rooting’ for the enemy? He’s still gay, isn’t he?
</snark>
Davebo
More good news..
Hey, it’s only money
DougJ
It’s hard to see how we can win in Iraq now that all but 36% of us are rooting for the enemy.
Jim Allen
LOL — thanks, Al, I think we all needed that!
Pooh
Al, no one could have foreseen Syracuse losing in the first round…except. Of course, I have Kansas in the Final Four (good thinking, genius…) so my authority is not exactly ironclad here.
mitch
One point about Vietnam – we didn’t lose the war or a single battle. We quit. After we quit, the NVA came in and defeated the South who we abandoned
Bob In Pacifica
The irony is that a lot of the Nazis were put back in power in Germany after WWII, thanks to McCloy. Damned few industrialists spent any time behind bars. A good book on Nazi plans for post-war, THE NAZIS GO UNDERGROUND by Kurt Reiss (1944), shows some of their strategies for surviving the immediate end to the war. It’s available on the web here:
http://www.spitfirelist.com/Books/undergrnd.pdf
If enough people had read it years ago maybe Rumsfeld wouldn’t have survived the Ford Administration.
CaseyL
Alcibiades was brilliant but unstable. There’s no equivalent person in the Bush Admin, because no one in the Bush Admin is brilliant. Pathologically narcissic, yes. Brilliant, no.
Ivan Carter
I agree with your point on comparing wars. We get a little too casual with it.
Iraq is very different from Vietnam in many respects. One general similarity is the sort of quarmireish aspect of it, but both emanate from a very different set of challenges. Iraq was clear cut, and had two parts. the first was easy, and we did it exceedingly well (remove the existing regime). the second was difficult, and we did it with extremely poor initial planning and comprehension (stabilize Iraq, win the confidence of the Iraqi people, protect the new government and teach the Iraq’s to learn to secure their country, and govern themselves).
One comparison that I find to be the height of rhetoric and misunderstanding is the comparsion between the war on terror and WWII. First of, the war on terror is very serious. Hype aside, we are not doing enough to intelligently combat it, (including, given that we have now spent close to 400 billion dollars on it, not capturing or eradicating all of those responsible for it such as Osama Bin Laden, to at least insure with 100% certainty that THEY, AT LEAST, WILL NEVER DO IT AGAIN, and securing fissile materials, by far our greatest threat.
that said, we are still fighting a renegade band of extremists, who pose the threat they do because of the ability to wreak tremendous damage when even the lowest limits of socially reasonable behavior are removed, in combination with the devastating potential of WMD. It’s a huge threat, and we could suffer enormous loss of life if we do not deal with this problem in a forceful and intelligent way, but our country itself is not at risk. WWII involved a global struggle — towards which most of our country in one fashion or another had to participate –between most of the worlds superpowers, in essence, for direct control and domination of the world. It was pretty heavy, to say the least.
Steve
Thanks for clearing that up.
I’m just curious, how many more years and how many more lives would it have been worth just so we didn’t have to take the big L in Vietnam?
Tom in Texas
It is my opinion that the most proper analogy for this war is the philipinne-american war immediately following the spanish-american war in 1899. The Spanish war ended quickly — within a hundred days Roosevelt was on top of San Juan hill and Spain was forced out of the hemisphere. Afterwards, we fought insurgent rebels in the Philippenes that we originally supported in their attempts for independence from Spain for decades in an attempt to subdue Spain’s former colony. The war is the seventh deadliest in American history in absolute terms.
Tom in Texas
Specific correlations I noticed include:
1) The quick resolution of traditional war, followed by a long period of insurgency.
2) The adoption of scorched earth warfare by US troops.
3) The usage of camps for suspected insurgents
4) Notable opposition at home by the academic elite, but ignorance/misinformation on the part of the general public.
5) The abandonment and demonization of a former US Ally.
Rick DeMent
You want a historical analogy of Iraq? Then you only have to go back 20 + years to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.
22 years ago the man in charge of Israel was Menachem Begin. He and Ariel Sharon were sick of taking mortar rounds from PLO in south Lebanon. They decided they’d invade Lebanon, push the PLO into the sea.
It went fine, as long as the Israelis were heading north, attacking via combined arms. Their air force destroyed the opposition. The Syrians lost 82 planes; Israel lost…zero. The IDF zoomed all the way to Beirut in record time, bombarded the PLO district and pushed Arafat into exile in Africa. They lost only about 400 men, but killed thousands of PLO. They kicked ass.
Then came phase two, the occupation. And that was the biggest military disaster Israel ever had.
What happened to them is exactly what’s happening to us: they woke up the Shiites, who turned out to be way, way scarier than the PLO. In Lebanon, just like in Iraq, the Shiites were the lowest of the low, basically terrorized into keeping quiet and doing all the crummy jobs the Sunni didn’t want. And just like in Iraq, the Lebanese Shiites lived either in urban slums or in villages in the South. When the invasion came, the Shiites went from welcoming the invaders to warning them to leave, then to open warfare. Exactly the same script, 20 years apart, Lebanon and Iraq. Once the Shiites started to fight, they showed why it’s better not to mess with them.
Anything about this sound familiar?
Rick DeMent
Sorry It looks like guav already made that point. BTW if you want to read the whole article that I shamelessly lifted this excerpt from, go here.
http://www.exile.ru/2004-April-16/war_nerd.html