As Barry Bonds closes in on Babe Ruth’s HR count, the whining is starting again- this is a typical example from the sportswriters:
Bud Selig is as right as an April shower. What we do now with Barry Bonds is, we go 7-year-old on him.
Close our eyes. Stick our fingers in our ears. Chant, in a voice no more annoying than a chainsaw starting up at 6 a.m., “La-la-la, la-la-la, I’m not listening, I’m not listening …”
In case you missed it, Barry gave a ride to No. 713 Sunday night.
Most of them should have some practice at that, because as the NFL and the other major sports were banning steroids and aggressively testing for them, baseball writers stuck their fingers in their ears and paid no attention to what everyone knew was happening. Bud Selig did nothing because Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire and the sluggers saved the game of baseball for Bud.
And now, because Barry is close to the mythical babe, it is time to start trashing Barry and pretending that we are shocked (insert your own Casablanca reference) to learn that some people were taking steroids. The whole thing stinks to me.
Additionally, placing all the credit for Barry Bond’s hitting success on allegations of steroids usage also unfairly diminishes how good of a hitter he really is. Look at his statistics. Look at how many walks he has and how few walks he has and compare that to his power numbers. Steroids didn’t give Barry Bonds his instincts. Steroids did not give Barry Bonds his bat speed.* Steroids did not give Barry Bonds his discipline.
This is more about Barry Bonds’ acerbic attitude towards the press than it is anything else, and now they are going to do their best to get their pound of flesh. And while we are at it, we can stop pretending that the Baseball HoF is filled with nothing but angels, too. So, while all the bigmouths in the press and all the self-anointed baseball purists are pissing and moaning about the game of baseball being ruined by Bonds and that there should an asterisk next to his name, I will be cracking a beer and hoping he hits 800 and pisses them all off one last time.
*I stand corrected- steroids can help with bat speed.
VidaLoca
I had been losing interest in MLB for years, and I finally gave up on it completely when Selig and his Brewers, the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel, Gov. Tommy Thompson and the whole attached retinue of assclowns phucked the people of SE Wisconsin into building that sorry-assed team of losers their fricking ballpark. Every single one of them is not worth a rat’s ass. Bonds included; he’s a living monument to their avarice and denial.
But, glad to see you’re back from grading hell now, John.
Andrew
I almost totally agree, but I think it should be noted that steroids absolutely gave Bonds his bat speed (and preserved it once it would have naturally slowed).
ppGaz
The issue is not Bonds’ hitting, it’s his slugging, and his outrageous recent HR numbers. Those numbers ARE due to the steroid use, and your comment is completely wrong.
Follow the numbers around his arms and neck and onto the slugging charts, and the connection is quite obvious.
I can’t fucking believe you said this, really.
Mr Furious
Records such as this have absolutely no bearing on my enjoyment of the game. None. I didn’t reallly care about Cal Ripken or McGwire either.
I also agree that Barry is being unfairly pilloried for playing within baseball’s non-existent steroid rules. Though it should be noted that that behavior is illegal in every other sense.
Baseball and the media chose to look the other way when McGwire and Sosa made the run at the single season mark, so they all earn a big “shut the fuck up” from me on the righteous indignation act they are pulling on Bonds now. The fact that this discussion is even taking place is proof that Bonds is an exponentially better player than those other guys—steroids or not. For everyone to get their panties in a bunch (sorry Krista) over Bonds is the height of hypocrisy.
All of that said, I just read a thread on this at a sports site, and reading the linked story there just cements my distaste for Bonds however. Barry has long been such a prick that I have never really wished him any success, and I am not about to now, even if it means rubbing the holier than thou baseball press in their own feces.
The only thing bigger than Barry’s head and fake muscles is his ego and that’s the whole reason this happened to him. Screw him. I hope whenever he hits 715 (and eventually 755 if he gets there) the ball gets thrown back on the field and everybody sits on their hands. Not boo, just ignore…
Gratefulcub
Yes, the problem is with baseball. They allowed steroids because it made them money. I got that, I understand that Barry is one of many that improved their game with ‘enhancers.’ I also know that the legal supplements is enough to make Babe and Barry impossible to compare. Weight lifting was forbidden until the early 80’s in baseball, because it would ‘slow down your bat speed.’
There are many reasons why we can’t put all of the hatred onto Bonds.
But……
I don’t care what the sports writers have to say. They are men that write about sports for a living.
I have my own problems with Barry Bonds.
He’s an asshole. There have been many, but I am not going to celebrate this one.
The only reason he is challenging the records, both 73 and 715 is steroids. He could never have hit 73 without enough juice to turn him into a real live bobblehead. He would never have been able to play this long naturally. As soon as they started testing, he broke down. The body fell apart.
He is a disgrace to a game that I love. Spare me the mockery. I know it is a business, and it is just a game, yada yada yada. I go back to Billy Crystal, “When my dad and I had nothing else to say to each other, we could always talk about baseball.” I am not even a sports nut. But, the game of baseball is something that I hold dear.
I am under no illusion of former players being great men. This one just doesn’t deserve to be celebrated for breaking a record he doesn’t deserve to break. And, the only reason he is still playing is that he wants to break these records. He can’t run, he can’t play left field, and he can only be in the lineup about half time.
When Giambi is closing in on records, we can discuss him. Right now he is just one of many that used, and the one that got caught.
Bonds lies to us every day. He calls everyone else a liar, when it is obvious he used.
Gratefulcub
For the record, I am not talking about suspending Bonds or even putting some silly asterisk next to his stats. The entire era of hitters will be seen with an invisible asterisk.
I am simply talking about my opinion and dislike of Barry Bonds.
He will get to Aaron.
Since we are talking long ball, my favorite baseball trivia question:
Which set of brothers hit the most HRs in major league history?
John Cole
My favorite baseball trivia question:
Only two men have hit home runs when they were teenagers and when they were in their 40’s. Who are they?
Two hints- Their last names rhyme with each other, and both had nicknames that referenced fruit.
ppGaz
I strongly disagree. Yes, baseball and the idiot owners have a lot of responsibility here, allowing this to happen. Allowing McGwire to happen. etc.
However, these players made a conscious decision to exploit a loophole in the regulation of the game and make a mockery of the game and its legacy. They decided to place themselves above the fans, above the game itself and pump themselves up and shoot for the moon … for what?
For what, other than their own personal glory. That’s it. They didn’t need the money, or even the attention, because they had plenty of both. In Bonds’ case, he was a sure Hall of Famer before he ever took one molecule of steroids.
So what the FUCK did he do this for, except his own personal glory? Well, fuck him very much.
Sure, the owners left the door unlocked, but that’s no excuse for what these asshole players did. They didn’t do it for the game, or the fans, or to feed their families. They did it to literally puff themselves up in their own sick heads.
Punchy
Bonds cheated. And he broke the law. And he lied about it multiple times. What a great role model.
Please don’t feign surprise when stories of 14 year-olds on the juice start popping up. When it’s obvious that the quickest way to the record books involves cheating, then cheating will thus commence…starting at the high school level…
And your downplaying of the effect of steriods are laughable. There biggest impact is that they allow for a 40+ man to play all those games hitting all those dingers. How many men do YOU know that bulk up to Bonds’ size as they age? It’s nearly impossible without cheating.
Gratefulcub
That’s a peach of a question. What was Big Red’s fruity nickname. I saw him hit a pinch hit HR during his last year. My Dad told me, “that is one of the best hitters you will ever see.” He just looked old and fat to me. But at that age, everyone looked old and fat.
Bone-In RibEye
If I had taken steroids I could have hit the 90+ fastball. Without roids the fastest pitch I could turn on was mid 80s. Can you imagine what its like to be 40, have a 20 year veterans eye for pitches and have the swing of a 20 year old?
Don’t imagine, just relive Barry’s last 4 years.
Steve
John, your ESPN link is broken. Try this.
The point about the hypocrisy of sportswriters is well taken. There’s probably no job in journalism, including political reporters, that relies quite so much on the goodwill of those you cover. There’s simply not a demand, for better or for worse, for a muckraking sports journalist who goes around exposing the seamy private life of athletes.
I think the owners, and by extension the commissioner, should have taken more responsibility for maintaining the integrity of the game, because it’s gotten to the point where these hallowed records have become virtually meaningless. And while pro athletes are basically paid millions of dollars to fuck up their bodies in certain respects, steroids have a trickle-down effect, where college athletes are forced to use steroids if they want a shot at the pros, and then high-school athletes are forced to use steroids if they want a shot at a scholarship. I don’t want to catch my kid taking steroids because he wants to crack the starting lineup in Little League.
At the end of the day, I’ll always remember Barry Bonds as a great player, but this record will be totally meaningless to me because it’s obvious he never would have gotten it without steroids. Clearly, steroids have helped him perform at this level well after a clean player would have declined. It doesn’t really diminish Babe Ruth’s record either way – but I’m glad he won’t be getting past Hank Aaron.
The Other Steve
Question I have…
While Ruth was good, as was Mickey Mantle and all the others of his day.
What kind of pitches was Ruth getting? Where they as fast as modern day baseball? It seems to me now with the speed guns and such that is what the coaches strive for when picking a pitcher and they have a way of measuring that.
Another thing. It always seems to me in watching the old games that Ruth couldn’t run very fast. Another aspect that is required by modern players. I don’t watch much baseball, but when I go to Twins games I’m always amazed at how fast Torii Hunter is.
Steve
I’ll always remember him as one of the slowest players I’ve ever seen. No offense to your dad, by the way, but I’m not sure I’d really rate him as an all-timer. How many seasons did he even hit over .300?
Steve
I’m not sure the pitchers were that much less talented back in the day, but hitting was definitely easier in Ruth’s era, for any number of reasons.
1) Pitchers tended to throw complete games, so you got to face a tired starter in the 9th inning instead of Mariano Rivera.
2) Pitchers have a wider repertoire these days. I’m not sure the slider was even invented back when Ruth played, and very few pitchers had an accurate curveball. Of course, I suppose some threw the spitter, which may even things out.
3) The talent pool was much shallower back then. Every pitcher in the major leagues, after all, was white!
I could go on, but nearly every factor suggests that it’s much harder to hit in today’s game.
J. Michael Neal
I almost totally agree, but I think it should be noted that steroids absolutely gave Bonds his bat speed (and preserved it once it would have naturally slowed).
You know this how?
Steroids probably helped Bonds. How much they helped him, and in what ways, none of us know. Why? Because there have never been any rigorous investigations into that question. We simply do not know what effect steroids have on hitting ability. We also do not know what effect they have on pitching, and there have assuredly been pitchers taking them.
We also don’t know how much amphetamine usage helps a hitter, and those have been a part of baseball for decades. Many of the records in baseball were set with the aid of illegal uppers, and yet that doesn’t seem to raise everyone’s ire. Babe Ruth’s home run record, later broken by Aaron, was set without having to face black ballplayers. Singling out Bonds as somehow being uniquely cringeworthy strikes me as myopic.
I would very much like to see steroids eliminated from baseball, just as I would very much like to see them eliminated from football. I don’t think that the testing programs in either sport will, or have, accomplished that.
J. Michael Neal
I could go on, but nearly every factor suggests that it’s much harder to hit in today’s game.
This is a very interesting question. Whether it’s harder to hit today than it used to be, after controlling from the fact that both hitters and pitchers benefit from improved training and conditioning methods, is probably unresolvable.
What is striking, though, is the extent to which the distribution of abilities has decreased in variance. The average major leaguer is closer to the best one in terms talent than he has ever been. The worst major leaguer is closer in talent to the average one than ever. There’s just less spread.
Exactly what that means, I don’t know. One thing it shows, though, is that, despite taking steroids, Barry Bonds isn’t as much better than his fellow teammates as Babe Ruth or Ty Cobbb were to theirs.
Bone-In RibEye
Yes we do. Steroids makes you stronger. If you can swing a bat fast enough to turn on a 90 mph fastball, steroids will improve your strength and batspeed and allow you to uncoil your muscles faster and turn on a faster pitch. If your bat speed has slowed because of aging the roids will help you restore that swing.
Steroids won’t help you hit a baseball but if you already can hit a baseball they can help you hit faster pitches and hit longer homeruns.
Sherard
What’s really disgusting is the only reason Bonds is still playing is so he can surpass Ruth because he’s white. In addition to being an asshole, arrogant prick, with no regard for the game that made him rich, he’s also a vile racist scumbag.
But, I’m probably just being myopic.
Gratefulcub
Whoooaaaaa, slow down a second. You are completely missing the reason that Ruth is the biggest legend in the history of American sporting lore.
The year he hit 61, he outhomered several TEAMS. I believe the runner up had 15.
The pitching was very watered down, granted. It is much harder to hit today than it was back then. But, for someone to do today, what Ruth did then, they would have to hit .375, 112HR, 195RBIs. Actually, that wouldn’t be any more amazing than what Ruth did in his day.
The pitching wasn’t as good, but the ball was much softer, the bats were much heavier, and the ballparks were, shall we say, a bit different. The Polo Grounds measured over 500 feet from the plate to the center field wall. (250 down the lines) Hey, they had to fit it into a city block. Yankee stadium was much bigger than today, but it always had that short porch.
You can’t look at Ruth and talk about numbers. He dominated the game like no one has ever dominated a game. Maybe Chamberlain, but he had the advantage of being a foot taller than everyone else. Ruth had no advantage like that, and he was 50 pounds overweight with a drinking and cigar problem.
The things he did will never be explainable.
Yeah yeah yeah. But when you take your son to his first live game you exaggerate statements that turn a very good player into an all time great.
hint – Tommie hit 13
norbizness
He also got his torn tendons in his right elbow (allegedly) from steroid abuse), which has paradoxically helped him as he has worn armor plating on his lead arm for the last… God, what is it, now? 6 or 7 years? Screw him and the lineup of ESPN apologists pimping his bullshit, zero-rated reality show.
Nobody freaks out at age 38 to have the most productive years of their career. He is a steroid abuser, and pretty much everybody knows it. It’s fairly obvious that McGwire did as well.
Bone-In RibEye
What??? Barry Bonds got walked when first base was occupied. You don’t do that to average players, not even close. The average player is nothing compared to A-Rod or Pujols or Manny. There isn’t another closer like Rivera. Average pitchers aren’t close to Pedro or Roger. You’re watching a different baseball league if you think the superstars and average players are close in talent.
Sherard
I find this ridiculous. If you’re talking about raw athletic ability, speed, strength, you are right. But in terms of “baseball talent” you couldn’t be more wrong. When Ruth played, there were 16 teams. Take any current team’s #4 and #5 starter and replace them with some other team’s #1 or #2 starter. Take the guy starting in left field hitting .240 and replace him with a guy that can drive in 85 runs and hit .300.
Just because a guy is fast or strong doesn’t mean squat about his baseball talent.
Gratefulcub
Saying that Steroids don’t make you a better hitter is the same as saying that lifting weights and increasing your strength doesn’t make you a better hitter.
It just isn’t so. Strength allows you to do so many other things. Balls off your fists get over the 2b head for a single. You can be fooled by something offspeed but as long as you keep your hands back, you can use those strong arms to hit it hard somewhere.
Strength turns 370 feet outs into 380 feet home runs. Unless you are at Wrigley, then 370 is already a HR, unless the wind is blowing in, then you may want to hit it 400 to get 370. But, I digress.
Strength training changed baseball more dramatically than anything else in the modern era (post war), including the end of white’s only baseball. I believe it was 1982 that the Cardinals went to the Series with McGee and Coleman both stealing 100+, and Jack Clark leading the NL with a grand whopping total of 27. (all numbers subject to change as I am too lazy to look it up) By 1990, the A’s had two kids hitting 40 each with forearms like thighs and the ‘don’t lift weights it will make you slow’ fallacy died instantly.
Steroids entered the game. Strike. Sosa McGwire baseball resurgence. Blind Eye. Bunning finds a congressional item that interests him. Finger wagging. Sosa & McGwire quietly exit stage left. Bonds gets what Bonds gets. No tears here.
Steve
No, I don’t dispute any of what you said one bit. I’m just trying to compare apples to apples, not trying to say whether Bonds is “greater” than Ruth or anything like that. And you didn’t even mention that Ruth was an incredible pitcher as well.
There was some discussion of the difference in eras back when Ichiro broke Sisler’s record for hits in a season, which I think was about 80 years old. The consensus among baseball experts seemed to be that it’s much harder to hit in the modern era than it was back then. That doesn’t really mar the significance of the old records – having a record stand for 80 years is breaktaking in itself.
Gratefulcub
I can’t believe people are arguing this point. It is the most obvious statement on this thread.
RUTH OUTHOMERED ENTIRE TEAMS.
I know Barry is incredible. But, would you rather have Bonds or Pujols? Bonds or ManRam? Bonds or Big Papi? Those aren’t rhetorical questions. You can make a legit argument that Pujols is as good as Barry. Who gets more ‘big’ hits, Big Papi or Barry?
There is no argument that can be made for any player being in the same league as Ruth during his time. None, nada.
Steve
What I find ironic about this post is that John Cole is sticking up for the honor of Barry Bonds even though, as some of you might remember, Barry popped up basically every playoff at-bat he had with the Pirates. If I were a Pirates fan, I’d hate his guts for accomplishing so much AFTER he left the team.
Mr Furious
Points well taken, ppGaz.
What I should say to be more accurate is that McGwire and Bonds were unfairly NOT pilloried. They got kid gloves treatment because baseball needed them at the time. That and the fact that McGwire and Sosa where accessible and cordial wiith the media, rather than surly and pompous like Bonds.
If you think that doesn’t make a difference, ask Jim Rice. He should have made into the Hall of Fame five years ago, and he is still waiting.
Gratefulcub
Steve,
That’s the great thing about baseball, the only sport in which numbers matter. You CAN’T compare apples to apples. Sisler vs Ichiro is great in the Barbershop or Sushi Bar, but it is impossible.
You can’t compare Bonds to Ruth, because the game is completely different than it was back then. Yet, it is exactly the same. 60 feet 6 inches. 90 feet. 9 innings. Exactly the same game. But different.
If Ichiro was willing to walk, he wouldn’t have broken the record. He put the ball in play almost every time at the plate. I believe, Sisler had a higher hit to AB ratio than Ichiro. So, to me, Sisler is still the single season hit king.
All that being said, of course it is harder to hit now. Relief pitchers and 5 man rotations. But, now they have light bats that don’t break as easy, batter’s eyes, and Enron Field (Minute Maid Park). But now they have to hit a splitter and a slider. But, the strike zone today is half the size it was just 50 years ago.
By the way, the greatest HITTER ever was Ted Williams.
Bone-In RibEye
I’ll take Papi, but then I’m biased. :)
ppGaz
Well, you are being too kind to baseball. Baseball has survived 100 years of things like attendance problems and competition and world wars and so forth.
It didn’t “need” bloated players to hit 70 home runs. It just needed to stay on course and be baseball, and it would have been fine.
It WANTED money, that’s why it looked away from the steroids. And the players WANTED fame and money, and that’s why they took them.
Nobody needed this. They just put their greed and self-interest ahead of everything else.
Gratefulcub
Why do you hate the free market, why do you hate america?
srv
Why shouldn’t someone who uses steroids and lies about it be held in contempt for it? Because everyone else does it, and because the media didn’t report it. And because alot of other players weren’t perfect either.
Better we just crack a beer and set a great example for the children.
Steve
I cannot believe we have gone through this many comments without someone blaming the players’ union. This blog truly has become a lefty cesspool.
LITBMueller
Well, not really… Ruth had a looooong career, and pitching changed quite a bit during it. According to Wikipedia, he first broke the single-season home run in 1919 with 29 homers (the previous record had been 27, set in 1884). And then he smashed that record in 1920 with 54 HRs.
Remember, it wasn’t until 1920 that baseball began to phase out the spitball. Many of the balls that Ruth would see thrown at him early in his career were like wet noodles, and they wouldn’t exactly carry far – even in small ballparks. Plus, they would use the same ball for 100+ pitches! That period before 1920 was called the Dead-ball era, and it was actually the lowest-scoring period in baseball history. Also, consider that lights didn’t start coming into use at ballparks until the 1930’s, so shadows were something that Ruth had to deal with at a level that Bonds never has.
Ruth changed the game, really. Before Ruth, and during the Dead-ball era, baseball was all about short ball – hits, steals, etc. (think of Ty Cobb). Ruth singlehandedly changed baseball into a power hitters game.
Finally, speaking of wet noodles, the Babe was a reall mess. He was breaking those records drunk, hung over, out of shape, etc., and played with an attitude that makes Bonds look like a nice guy. He had his last great year as a hitting in 1932, when he was 37 years old. And, without chemical assistance (unless you count the booze! ;))
Tim F.
Oh, we do. John may write about baseball but his heart is in the winter season.
DougJ
Great post, John. I’m tired of all the Bonds-bashing. He was a great player before he started taking steroids.
ppGaz
I hate the flea market. But not the free market.
Joel
The hypocrisy of most sportswriters is obvious, but the key word there is most. I would point out that Sports Illustrated, to their credit, have been hammering baseball’s joke of a steroids policy for over a decade now.
For that matter, they also hammered the NBA in the early 80’s for the then-rampant recreational drug abuse among its players.
ed
Baseball, buggy whips and hoop skirts – anachronisms best left in the 19th Century.
Jay
With regard to Ruth and his legend, people also need to remember that Ruth pitched for 5 full seasons (he was a two time twenty game winner).
Bonds, on the record acknowledged what Babe Ruth has meant to this game. He said baseball wouldn’t be what it is today without Ruth. Of course, knowing what a prick Bonds is, he was probably saying something safe knowing that if he said what he probably really thinks of Ruth, he would suffer greatly for it.
The sad thing is, Bonds was a sure-bet Hall of Famer BEFORE he started juicing. The fact that he acts like he is an innocent victim in all of this truly sullies this record he will have that in my view, he doesn’t deserve.
J. Michael Neal
Yes we do. Steroids makes you stronger. If you can swing a bat fast enough to turn on a 90 mph fastball, steroids will improve your strength and batspeed and allow you to uncoil your muscles faster and turn on a faster pitch. If your bat speed has slowed because of aging the roids will help you restore that swing.
Will it? Or do the side effects of steroids counterbalance the desired effects? Does adding muscle reduce your flexibility, and the ability to go get that outside pitch?
What you are engaging is is conjecture. It is fairly common sense conjecture, but the effects that drugs have on the human body frequently are not what common sense would suggest. The answer to the question, “Do steroids help hit a baseball?” is, “Probably, but we can’t be sure, and we have no idea how much it helps.”
I’m not saying that Bonds isn’t a grade A asshole. I’m not saying that he shouldn’t be hit with a perjury charge, though I would also like to see the prosecutor’s office hit with charges for leaking grand jury testimony. I’m not saying that we should all like Barry Bonds. Hell, I don’t like him.
What I am saying is the following:
1) We don’t know how much steroids helped him. Trying to put some sort of figure on how many extra home runs he’s hit because of them is futile. I could believe that it’s two per year. I could believe that it’s fifteen per year. We don’t know.
2) The use of illegal drugs to enhance performance in baseball is nothing new. Amphetemines have been around for decades. People have been finding ways to ingest testosterone at least since the ancient Olympics. I simply don’t understand why this instance of illegal performance enhancing drugs is so much worse than all of the previous instances. If you are going to be outraged about this, shouldn’t you also be outraged by Mickey Mantle’s use of greenies?
Gratefulcub
Sammy Sosa, GOOD hitter, not great. He hit 66 and 64 HRs.
Mark McGwire: Good hitter, not great. 70
Barry Bonds: Great hitter, but not 73 in 400 ABs great.
The game of baseball turned into a video game for a few years. A big part of that was due to steroids. Greenies didn’t change the game. Recreational drugs didn’t change the NBA. Speed didn’t change the way football was played, even if it turned LT into a monster on Sundays.
steroids changed the face of baseball, that is why it had to be dealt with. That is why you see the contempt for Barry Bonds.
Few numbers matter in sports. TDs in a season, no. Scoring title in the NBA, no. Career rebound leader, no. Goals in a season, not so much.
61 mattered.
Aaron’s record matters.
(by matters, I mean that to sports fans, that is a record that means something, even if it is just sports)
Steroids made a mockery of those records, and baseball fans are pissed. Myself included.
How much did steroids help? We don’t know yet because they were introduced to the game at the same time strength training was.
Albert Pujols is clean, and if he stays healthy, he will hit around 800 HRs, proving that strength training is what actually changed the game. Steroids was just a short cut.
J. Michael Neal
What??? Barry Bonds got walked when first base was occupied. You don’t do that to average players, not even close. The average player is nothing compared to A-Rod or Pujols or Manny. There isn’t another closer like Rivera. Average pitchers aren’t close to Pedro or Roger. You’re watching a different baseball league if you think the superstars and average players are close in talent.
and
I find this ridiculous. If you’re talking about raw athletic ability, speed, strength, you are right. But in terms of “baseball talent” you couldn’t be more wrong. When Ruth played, there were 16 teams. Take any current team’s #4 and #5 starter and replace them with some other team’s #1 or #2 starter. Take the guy starting in left field hitting .240 and replace him with a guy that can drive in 85 runs and hit .300.
Gratefulcub answered this, but I want to dig into it a bit more. I’m not saying that the average player is like Pujols, because that’s a nonsensical statement. They aren’t like him relative to what? They certainly are like him relative to me.
What is true is that the actual numbers that the average major league baseball player produces are much more similar to the numbers that both the best and the worst major leaguers than they were in the past. This simply is indisputable. Take a look at http://www.baseball-reference.com
Teams used to regularly rely on middle infielders who couldn’t support an OBP greater than .270. When you scroll down, you routinely see bench players that are getting more than 100 at bats who can’t reach a .200 batting average.
At the same time, no one hits .400 any more. You do see guys hitting more home runs than they used to, but that’s due to the fact that overall home run production is way up. Even in the run happy 1930s, teams didn’t hit 200 home runs in a season, and most hit fewer than 100. Now, every team hits more than 100 HRs, and there’s a couple a year that break 200.
Gratefulcub
Tommy Aaron hit 13HRs. His brother, Hank, hit a few more.
Ty Cobb and Rusty Staub
J. Michael Neal
The game of baseball turned into a video game for a few years. A big part of that was due to steroids.
Really? How do you know? At the same time that home run hitting exploded, every new stadium that was built was smaller than the one it replaced. Planet Coors was added to the National League, which produced a statistically significant increase by itself. I’m almost certain that smaller parks was the runaway number one cause of higher home run totals. One of the reasons to suspect this is that home runs were up across the board. It can’t be traced to a few players who were juicing; everyone was hitting more.
Sammy Sosa, GOOD hitter, not great. He hit 66 and 64 HRs.
Mark McGwire: Good hitter, not great. 70
Barry Bonds: Great hitter, but not 73 in 400 ABs great.
Fluky seasons are as old as baseball. Brady Anderson hit 50 home runs in 1996; in no other season did he hit more than 24. Norm Cash hit .361 in 1961; in no other season did he bat higher than .283. In 1912, Heine Zimmerman hit .372; in no other year did he hit better than .307. Davey Johnson hit 43 home runs in 1973; other than that, he never hit more than 18.
Pulling out anecdotal examples demonstrates nothing. There have always been extreme outliers in terms of single season production.
Albert Pujols is clean
How do you know? Remember, none of the people you are bringing up ever failed a drug test, though McGwire never had to take one.
steroids changed the face of baseball, that is why it had to be dealt with. That is why you see the contempt for Barry Bonds.
You do not know this. You may think that they changed the game, but there really isn’t any evidence to suggest that they did. Further, baseball records are always context sensitive. Every single one. It isn’t an accident that home run records are set in eras where a lot of home runs are hit; Roger Maris played in a much friendlier environment than Mike Schmidt did. Might Schmidt have hit 61 home runs if he had played in the late 1950s and early 1960s? He may have, but he didn’t have that chance. Do you think it’s an accident that Bob Gibson set the ERA record in 1968?
If you think of the records as somehow absolute and not the product of the specific moment that they were set, then you are deluding yourself. Between that fact, and that no matter how much people yell, we still don’t know how much effect steroids have, I do not see how this produces more outrage than other uses of illegal drugs in sports.
Steve
Ok, since you’re so good with the trivia. Which two brothers who pitched in the major leagues hold the record for most complete games, combined?
ppGaz
The Niekros? They certainly won the most games of any brother combination.
Pooh
Steve
The Niekros?
A point that hasn’t been made is that steroids supposedly improve eyesight as well, which is obviously an advantage.
Also the advantage in pure strength might not be as telling as the advantage in recovery time which allows for more, and more intense, practice. Which can’t hurt as far as making flush contact with the ball.
Steve
Phil (245) and Joe (107) didn’t even have as many CGs as these guys. But neither combo is the correct answer!
ppGaz
The Deans?
Andrew J. Lazarus
I understand that Bonds is a jerk (although he seems to be having a much better time this season—this stunt was for real—but I’m going to throw out another bombshell. I think he was onto something when he said McGwire was getting a pass on his steroid use because he was white. Bonds clearly started juicing after McGwire and, for that matter, Sosa. (Did anyone ever mention that Sosa had steroid acne? Saw it for the first time myself this week.) To my mind, the earlier juicers deserve even more condemnation. Gresham’s Law works for athletes.
Bone-In RibEye
The answer is “Thats a stupid question”.
Of course steroids won’t turn someone who can’t hit a baseball into a home run hitter. But if you already know how to hit they certainly will help you do it better. They won’t help you see the ball or help you maintain eye contact through contact with the ball but they will help you get that bat head around in time.
Bonds spend more money in a month on trainers than I bet we both make in a year. While the effects you talk abotu are possible they ain’t going to happen with the team of trainers keeping Bonds in hitting shape. They won’t give him something that will hurt his swing. He isn’t a guinea pig, these drugs have been tested. He’ll pay later but he’s not hurting his swing now.
Pooh
Yes, they will
KLN
I think every pitcher or every team opposing the SF Giants should intentionally walk Barry Bonds in every single at bat, for the rest of the season, and the next season, until he retires. He’s a liar, and a cheat, and he shouldn’t get to fake-break any more records.
Steve
Yeeeeaaaarrrrrgggghhhh! Not close. Dizzy Dean played something like six or seven full seasons, and his brother was basically a nobody.
Steve
The correct answer, lest I have a senior moment and forget I asked the question, can be found here. Heh!
Tim
What steroids has allowed Bonds to do is have 5 of his
6 highest home run years after the age of 35, this would not have happened without his chemical help. Steroiods allow athletes to heal quicker and feel athletically better, thus allowing them to play through stretches that a man in their mid to upper 30s could not do otherwise. Case in point is this year and last, he knows he can’t continue on steriods and now he has nagging injuries that do not allow him to play. No doubt he has had a great career but the only reason he will pass Babe Ruth is due
to the fact that he took steroids.
As for steroids not helping someone hit a baseball, that is irrellevant. They do allow a player to hit a ball FURTHER. A 360 foot out become a 380 foot homerun. Look up the stats of Brady Anderson, ex-player for the Baltimore Orioles who had on mega-year with 50 homers, well above any other year of his career. Oh yeah, he admitted doing steroids that year.
ppGaz
The correct answer, when I have to dig through a pile of links, is “Who gives a shit?”
Steve
Hey, it’s just a spoiler safeguard. I barely give a shit myself and I was the one who asked the question, so don’t go all Angry Left on me.
ppGaz
Says NewBrian?
“Who gives a shit” is not angry. It’s uncaring.
Pooh
Steve,
Damn, and I think I knew that one too (I was cogitating on Johnson, Young…someone from around there…who was that 3rd dude…)
Steve
Once upon a time (obviously), they were also the answer to the question of which brothers have the most wins, although the brother never had a single win! So it was even more of a cheesy answer to that question than it is to mine.
J. Michael Neal
But if you already know how to hit they certainly will help you do it better. They won’t help you see the ball or help you maintain eye contact through contact with the ball but they will help you get that bat head around in time.
Again I ask you, how do you know? The only response that has been offered to that question is assertion. No matter how often or loudly you assert something, it doesn’t mean you have any evidence. You are making an assumption.
Bonds spend more money in a month on trainers than I bet we both make in a year. While the effects you talk abotu are possible they ain’t going to happen with the team of trainers keeping Bonds in hitting shape. They won’t give him something that will hurt his swing. He isn’t a guinea pig, these drugs have been tested. He’ll pay later but he’s not hurting his swing now.
Again, how do you know? There are a lot of things that athletes think make them better that actually have no measureable effect. Corking your bat, for instance, doesn’t help you hit. Athletes are not well known for their adherence to the idea of empirical testing.
What steroids has allowed Bonds to do is have 5 of his 6 highest home run years after the age of 35, this would not have happened without his chemical help.
Hank Aaron had his biggest home run year at the age of 37. At the age of 37, Carlton Fisk hit 11 more home runs than he did in any other season, and he was a catcher. Simply pointing to an outlier doesn’t make a causal statement. The more exceptional the player, the more likely that there is going to be something about his record that really stands out as unique.
There are several reasons to be skeptical of the claims that steroids made a huge difference for Bonds. For one, his 73 home runs in 2001 is an obvious outlier; while other recent seasons are above his norm for homers, they aren’t that far above his norm. The evidence suggests that he had a monster season in 2001, and would have done so regardless of whether he was taking steroids or not. If it was all the steroids, why hasn’t he had any other seasons that huge?
Filling that gap, there are two reasons to think that Bonds would have increased his home run totals without chemical help. The first comes from observation of watching him hit. Bonds has always been a selective hitter, but this became even more pronounced in the last few years. If a pitch isn’t right where he wants it, he won’t swing at it unless he has two strikes. This means that more of the pitches he offers at are in his power zone.
The second factor is that Pac Bell opened in 2000 and provided the best hitting environment Bonds has ever played in. The stadium is death to right handed power hitters, but plays as an offensive park for lefties. Candlestick was a horrible place to try to hit home runs, and Three Rivers played roughly neutral. Simply by the change of parks, we would expect his home run totals to increase.
How much do each of these factors contribute? I don’t know, though we can make an estimate for the change in parks. Unfortunately, I don’t have the data at hand for park factors broken out by event and type of hitter. However, there is definitely more than one thing in play, and none of us know how much of the increase to attribute to steroids.
ppGaz
So, JMN, shorter version?
I don’t thing steroids explain Bonds’ recent HR output, and I have no facts to back up my opinion. Just opinions and proof by assertion.
I really hate it when people piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining. Bonds balloons into a grotesque muscled-up caricature of himself, hits a bunch of homers, and now you want to suggest that the ‘roids aren’t the explanation?
Ookay.
What percentage of Bonds’ drug-induced HR bonanza was on the road, again? And what percentage at PacBell?
How about McGwire’s sudden transformation into the Incredible Bulk, and the resulting HR binge? No connection?
Give us a frigging break.
techson
There is no way to compare Ruth to Bonds… after Gibsons 1.62 ERA year in 68 or 69 they lowered the pitchers mound by 6 inches. Massive difference and makes what Ruth did even more impressive. Anyone that thinks that roids don’t help hitters is a moron. MLB is just now getting around to dealing with “greenies” which many, many players have taken over the decades.
Steve
If you cheat to win a competition you don’t get to say “well, too bad, you can’t prove I wouldn’t have won if I hadn’t cheated.”
Steroids may be illegal, but I guess they don’t violate the rules of baseball, and I’m not in favor of simply erasing the steroid era from the record book. But I don’t have to believe that those records were fairly obtained, either.
J. Michael Neal
I really hate it when people piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining. Bonds balloons into a grotesque muscled-up caricature of himself, hits a bunch of homers, and now you want to suggest that the ‘roids aren’t the explanation?
I want to suggest that no one knows whether steroids are the explanation. Did Bonds increase in size? Yes, he did. Did Bonds take steroids? Yes, I’m pretty certain that he did. Does this explain the additional power? I don’t know, and neither do you.
Are the steroids even a total explanation for him bulking up? Probably not. Male human beings typically add muscle mass in their mid and late 30s. Bonds also started conditioning more seriously in his late 30s. The steroids undoubtedly helped him do so, but we probably would have noticed some bulking up anyways. Take a look at the Henry Aaron of 1970 versus the Henry Aaron of 1960 for another example.
Other things were happening at the same time that would also likely lead to increased home run totals.
Other players have seen unusual spikes in power at an advanced age, so simply pointing to them doesn’t mean much.
In short, it isn’t at all unreasonable to say that, absent some actual research into the subject, we just don’t know how much they helped him. Is there a connection? Most likely. As I said several times in this thread, my guess is that the steroids helped him some. The difference between us is that I recognize that I’m guessing, and you don’t recognize that you are also guessing.
So, I will ask you point blank. Exactly how many home runs per year did the steroids add to Bonds’ total?
Vladi G
I have never seen this claim made by anyone. HGH is said to improve eyesight. Not steroids.
Boy, all of this righteous indignation about steroids ruining baseball and not one mention of Juan Rincon, Ryan Franklin, or any of the other pitchers suspended for steroid. They make up roughly half of all players suspended.
And the assertion that records from the steroid era are not comparable with records from prior eras is REALLY stupid, mostly because is assumes that without steroid use, the records WOULD be comparable. They wouldn’t be even if no player in the history of the game ever ingested a controlled substance.
ppGaz
Without doubt, the dumbest thing I have ever seen posted on this blog, and that is really saying something.
Do the steroids explain the additional power? Of course. Cut the crap, for crissakes.
Jesus.
Are you full of crap? Most likely.
Bonds is a lying asshole, and a puffed up freak who makes the Incredible Hulk look realistic by comparison.
Steve
Of course they’re comparable, in the same sense that records from different eras are always comparable as long as you’re still playing baseball. Maybe you think the widespread use of steroids is just a regular feature of the modern era, much like parks are smaller now or pitchers throw more curveballs than they used to or whatever. I disagree, that’s all. If we found out some player had a metal cyborg thing implanted in his arm and he hit 100 home runs, would I say, “oh well, times change, guess he has the record now?” I wouldn’t. Maybe some people would.
Would Mark McGwire have hit more than 61 home runs that year if he hadn’t taken steroids? I have no idea, and the point is, the burden isn’t on me to figure out what he would have done if he had competed fairly. There’s only one way to prove that, and that would have been for him to not take steroids in the first place. So it’s his fault, and he has to deal with the fact that some people aren’t going to feel his records are legit.
J. Michael Neal
There is no way to compare Ruth to Bonds… after Gibsons 1.62 ERA year in 68 or 69 they lowered the pitchers mound by 6 inches. Massive difference and makes what Ruth did even more impressive.
There have been a lot of changes since then. You are correct that it is difficult to compare between eras, but the single thing you are pointing to is hardly the largest factor.
If you cheat to win a competition you don’t get to say “well, too bad, you can’t prove I wouldn’t have won if I hadn’t cheated.”
So, should we decide that Gaylord Perry’s totals should be treated in the same way? He cheated, and there were actual rules that he broke.
The problem is that cheating has always had a semi-respected place in baseball. This goes from things as mundane as catchers trying to frame pitches that were out of the strike zone to steroids. Every time a player accepts the result of a blown call in his favor, he’s cheating. Every time a pitcher uses a scuffed ball, he’s cheating; this is much more common than people think it is. If you read at Baseball Think Factory, one of the regular commenters is a minor league pitcher. He has described some of the tricks pitchers use.
Cheating is accepted within the baseball community. This makes it difficult to, after the fact, make a huge deal out of one instance of cheating. Baseball (and other American sports) has long had an ethos that it isn’t cheating if you don’t get caught. I’m in favor of removing steroid usage from the list of acceptable cheating and trying to get it out of the game. That is not the same thing as saying that we should make a huge deal out of records that are set using them.
Performance enhancing substances have been used since the game began. What changed in the 1990s wasn’t that such substances came into existence; it’s that they became a lot more effective. Trying to establish a dividing line of when PEDs stopped being something that was acceptable is going to be frustratingly difficult to establish. Isolating Bonds, McGwire and Sosa as being the ones where we draw the line strikes me as irrational.
If there is one single rule that I could make baseball enforce, it wouldn’t be this one. I want the umps to start enforcing the damned batters box. I suspect that players diving out over the plate to reach the outside pitch with authority has done more to increase home runs than steroids have. Then again, as I’ve said elsewhere, I’m guessing.
J. Michael Neal
Do the steroids explain the additional power? Of course.
Then you ought to be able to answer the question I asked at the end of my last post, but which you ignored. How many of Barry Bonds’ home runs are attributable to his taking steroids. If you can’t give me an answer, then you are admitting that you, too, don’t know how much effect that they have.
Bonds is a lying asshole, and a puffed up freak who makes the Incredible Hulk look realistic by comparison.
I don’t even disagree with this statement. Still, how many additional home runs has it produced?
Would Mark McGwire have hit more than 61 home runs that year if he hadn’t taken steroids? I have no idea, and the point is, the burden isn’t on me to figure out what he would have done if he had competed fairly.
Steroids were not against the rules of baseball until 2003. Ergo, McGwire was competing wthin the rules of the game, and I don’t know of a better definition of competing fairly than that.
Without doubt, the dumbest thing I have ever seen posted on this blog, and that is really saying something.
Taking things out of order, I know, but in what way is asking for actual data on this effect dumb? I thought that the Reality-Based Community was about making sure that there is evidence before leaping to conclusions. All you have is:
1. Barry Bonds gets big
2. ?
3. Home runs.
Without something to fill in at that question mark, you’re guessing.
Steve
The thing is, Gaylord Perry doesn’t hold any of the most cherished records in baseball history, so no one really cares if his numbers are 100% legit. But if someone wanted to think less of his numbers because he cheated, if they wanted to vote against him for the Hall of Fame because of it, that’s fair in my book. It’s a matter of opinion.
I didn’t say anyone should be left out of the official record book; you can’t erase a whole decade. But those records will always have a big ol’ asterisk in my mind.
ppGaz
I’m guessing that you are a complete numbskull.
You deserve Barry Bonds, really. Seriously, I think you and Cole should start a fan club for Barry.
J. Michael Neal
I’m guessing that you are a complete numbskull.
I take it, then, that you do not have a figure for how many additional home runs Bonds has hit because of the steroids.
ppGaz
Absolutely fucking amazing.
Steve
Exactly how many home runs would Bonds have hit if he didn’t use steroids? No idea? See, you can’t prove that he would have hit A SINGLE ONE.
ppGaz
This is a Monty Python sketch, right?
Tim
All great players have great years late in their career,
but hitting more homeruns each year from 35 to 40 than all but one other year in the career is not by a player peaking. Also, McGuire obviously used steriods as well but he as a big dude as a rookie in the early 80s when he hit 49 homers but I doubt he was juiced at that time.
99
I have no dog in this hunt, but if you check out this dude’s site, it does make for at least interesting reading:
http://www.arthurdevany.com
Devany’s an economist and stats expert, and, long story short, he makes a pretty convincing statistical case in defense of Bonds. I think Devany pushes the case just a tad too far, but I also suspect there’s a lot of truth to his arguments, and that in fact Bonds’s steroid use accounted for only a modest portion of extra HRs in his top four or five seasons.
If Bonds were smart, he ought to train like hell, watch his diet especially carefully, play five or six more seasons (maybe move the the AL and DH) and then absolutely demolish Hank Aaron’s record. Were Barry to retire with 903 HRs, there’d be no argument about the career record (though unfortunately for Bonds, there always will be doubts about the single season record as long as he holds it).
ppGaz
Yeah, I think that baseball’s official position here should be this:
I think that will win the respect of the fans.
It appears to be good enough for Balloon-Juice.
J. Michael Neal
Well, no. The home runs happened. Baseball records represent facts. Opening that representation up to modification, making it a matter of opinion which records are legitimate, strikes me as a really bad idea. It’s the kind of thing that doesn’t stop at one.
That’s why their records should stand as entered. The fact that we don’t know what effect the steroids had on their production is a matter of intellectual honesty, but it doesn’t have anything to do with why the factual recordings of what happened shouldn’t be changed.
ppGaz
Well of course. That’s why sports are opening the door to more and more drug use, and the Olympics will feature athletes taking the drugs right on camera. It’s just a matter of honesty, since nobody can prove that the drugs actually create any particular effect.
And you are a big stupid spoof and should go fuck yourself.
Who are you, John Cole?
Worst spoof job I’ve seen all day. Really.
Steve
Dude, you don’t get to decide whether it’s a matter of opinion or not. People have opinions. Perhaps your opinion is that it’s dangerous and subversive to have opinions about whether baseball records are legitimate and it threatens the entire fabric of the universe. That’s awesome! Perhaps not everyone agrees. That’s awesome too! Opinions are awesome!
J. Michael Neal
Well of course. That’s why sports are opening the door to more and more drug use, and the Olympics will feature athletes taking the drugs right on camera. It’s just a matter of honesty, since nobody can prove that the drugs actually create any particular effect.
I really, really suggest that you read what I write and actually process it. I have said several times in this thread that I am in favor of eliminating steroids. So this paragraph is a complete misrepresentation of my position. I guess my point was wasted, since you clearly don’t have any intellectual honesty if that’s how you insist on doing things.
Dude, you don’t get to decide whether it’s a matter of opinion or not. People have opinions. Perhaps your opinion is that it’s dangerous and subversive to have opinions about whether baseball records are legitimate and it threatens the entire fabric of the universe. That’s awesome! Perhaps not everyone agrees. That’s awesome too! Opinions are awesome!
Uh, no. What is it, can people not read what someone writes without leaping to conclusions about what they must think beyond the scope of what is written? I have no problem with people forming their own opinions. I was responding specifically to what ppGaz was saying; you might have guessed that, since I quoted him. He was questioning whether the records should be allowed to stand, which is something very different than people forming their own opinions.
Steve
I don’t see anywhere in this thread that ppGaz has said the records should be erased from the books. I see where he argued that it would be pretty lame of baseball to make its official position “the records stand because no one can prove they were affected by steroids,” given that 99% of the population agrees that of course the records were affected by steroids.
Indeed. Maybe you should read his comment again.
Halffasthero
I hate joining in these things late. This post was right on the mark. The truth is I started losing interest in baseball starting the day Ricky Henderson decided to hold out for more money while playing for Oakland until he was paid more money for a conttract HE HAD JUST SIGNED. Since then, the whole pro sports industry has been nothing but a show much on the order of the World Wrestling Federation. You can almost predict how things are going to turn out.
These records in baseball were a passion for me and for anyone who had grown up with them. That the current care-takers of those records are so damned reckless with them now sickens me. The one thing I loved about keeping track of these things was the timelessnesws of them. Players from the 20’s, 30’s and 40’s were able to be compared with the 80’s 90’s and 00’s because the level of talent was even based on drawing from the same pool of the times. When the blacks joined fully into te league, records started falling again but everyone understood why. The old ones were kept in place only because a pool of talent was kept from performing. the same with the Latinos.
Steroids has nothing to do with that. It is playing the game with a stacked deck. None of the players from those days had this as a means to improve their game. It is a cheat in the purest sense of the word and, in the end, the excuse that “everyone does it” simply does not fly. If a line does not get drawn here, there is no line. Throw the record books out. If they want to play drugged up and kill themselves from cancer, if they want debilitating diseases that result from being a propped up chemical game boy, there is nothing I can do about that. But stop rewarding it and stop comparing the players with their predecessors. Those days were my childhood and, frankly, I don’t like that the “heros” today are gaming the rules to steal records that were important to me as a fan. Call me self righteous, but that is the way I see it.
ppGaz
No, it’s a sarcastic barb aimed directly at your spoofy “position.”
Gratefulcub
JMNeil,
I know this thread is over, but I just came back and read your position. To which I have to respond.
Does increases strength increase power numbers?
To say that steroids do not increase a players power, is to say that weight lifting and added strength do not increase a player’s power.
So, I guess I have to answer your question.
103. That is the number of Bonds’ HRs that are due to steroids.
Pac Bell
13 HRs are due to the short porch in Right
-7 due to the high wall in Right
-9 due to the triple friendly right field alley
+5 for his games in Enron
+7 for his games in Coors
-3 for the use of the humidor in Denver
-45 for not lifting weights early in his career
-2 because the weight of his cross earring (it’s heavier than it looks)
-2 due to Tommy LaSorda not pitching to him before it was cool to walk him
+20 for the juiced ball era of the 90’s
+45 because of the shrinking strikezone from the 90’s until a couple of years ago
-1 due to Juan Pierre robbing him last night
For a grand total of: STEROIDS ADD STRENGTH, STRENGTH ALLOWS HIM TO HIT THE BALL LONGER, LONG BALLS = HOME RUNS
Steve
I was going to say 100, but I forgot about the humidor, so yeah, 103.
Awesome post, by the way.
Crack
Pooh mentions it. Regardless of bat speed and strength, the key advantage steriods gives players is reduced recovery time. Aaron mentioned that in a recent interview that I have been unable to find. The season really wears on a 40 year old, steriods lessens that wear.
Jim Allen
Agreed to everything right up to the last sentence. If he passes Ruth, no big deal — it’s no longer a record anyway, just a milestone.
However, if he passes Aaron and sets a new record, it should go into the books with some kind of notation (like Maris’s 61*). And, yes, he should be inducted into the Hall of Fame when his time comes. And Pete Rose should be there already.
Oh, yeah, and so should Jim Rice, but that’s another story entirely.
Bob In Pacifica
Before they were banned, steroids were all over the place in the NFL. In college football. For decades. That’s just the way it was.
I think it is because baseball is so concerned with records, but that’s the way it goes. Bonds never failed a baseball drug test. Right now guys are probably taking human growth hormone or some other drug. There will be new wave of drugs, designer DNA treatment, who knows?
Bonds is an asshole? So. I don’t plan on inviting him over and making him my friend, but living here in the SF Bay Area I’ll have the game on tonight.
ppGaz
Probably the biggest asshole that ever played the game.
First, because he made the decision to flip off the baseball world and go for his own fame and glory.
Second, because he fucking lied about it every day to everyone who asked the question, and still is lying about it to this day.
All this, for himself, and only for himself. Not for baseball, not for his team, not for the fans. For himself.
Jon Swift
What we need in baseball is more steroids, not less:
http://jonswift.blogspot.com/2006/03/what-we-can-learn-from-us-defeat-in.html
No Borders No Limits
ppgaz- believe you made your point clear. Your comments are the written equivalent of a man sticking his fingers in his ears and screaching in a high pitched wail.
Couple points…I grew up in Bonds’ hometown: San Carlos, California. Is he an asshole? No doubt. A major one, even. The biggest in the game’s history? Well, I think Ty Cobb might have something to say about that.
But to single Bonds out only because he’s an asshole, or because he’s chasing a record we’ve deemed as “hallowed”, or for whatever reason just isn’t fair. Many, many players are alleged to have used steroids, and why not? Before baseball began testing, many players gauged that the benefits of using outweighed the costs. More prestige. Better chance for a championship. Higher salary. With all that on the line, wouldn’t you at least consider using?
So let’s stop the silly hyperbolic Bonds bashing. JM Neal is surely right- there is no way to quantify the effects of steroid use, so what’s all the fuss about?
Gratefulcub
We can’t disregard the affect of steroids because we can’t come up with a number of steroid induced HRs.
Obviously, Bonds is getting a bit more heat that he deserves for a few reasons:
-He is chasing the hallowed records
-He’s an asshole, so he has no one to defend him
But, he is getting heat for some very valid reasons as well.
-He was caught. We have ample evidence that he was juiced.
-He refuses to fess up and make amends.
America is very forgiving of it’s superstars and celebrities. Jason Giambi has been all but forgiven. But, you have to come clean when you are caught red handed.
Sosa refused to come clean and he couldn’t find a job. He disappeared quietly.
Palmeiro didn’t even get to hold a presser to announce his retirement.
Mark McGwire understood the rules of the PR game, so he quietly walked away in the offseason.
Barry is getting it worse than everyone else for the reasons above, as well as the fact that he is the only active ‘great’ player KNOWN to be guilty, that hasn’t done a mea culpa.
Pete Rose, let me introduce you to Barry Bonds. Now you two can take your hubris and the three of you can watch the Hall of Fame inductions on TV.
Fair? No. 100% American? You bet. (No, not you Petey, I wasn’t telling you to call your bookie…..put the phone down….no nooo, Pete, Stop It. No, I won’t give you $50 to sign my ball)
zak822
“This is more about Barry Bonds’ acerbic attitude towards the press than it is anything else, and now they are going to do their best to get their pound of flesh.”
It is such a total relief to see someone finally say this! If Bonds had been a media darling, we would not be having this conversation. Right now, the sports media simply ignore the fact that Bonds has not tested positive for any banned substance.
The allegations of steroid use are just that, allegations. And this whole thing is a which hunt, going after that “pound of flesh”.
Gratefulcub
The allegations the Patrick Kennedy was intoxicated are just allegations, he never failed a sobriety test.