Powerline hated it:
He Had His Chance…
…and he blew it. He should have given the speech I told him to. As soon as he started talking about guest worker programs and the impossibility of deporting 11 million illegals, it was all over. President Bush keeps trying to find the middle ground, on this and many other issues. But sometimes, there isn’t a viable middle ground. This is one of those instances.
Instead of mincing words, let’s just play it straight- anyone who thinks deporting 11 million people IS a viable option, or one that our leadership has the political will to carry through, is an insane crazy person. Period.
We will never, ever, ever deport all 11 million illegals. We will never deport a sizable fraction. It simply is not going to happen, and with our current INS and current electoral system, it is silly to even pretend that the hard-line deportation option even is remotely viable. Any serious discussion of immigration reform needs to recognize this.
BTW- For those of you who like to watch a train wreck in progress (as if you don’t get enough of that here), check out the Polipundit/Lorie Byrd imbroglio. And Tim, you better take the hint (j/k).
Doctor Gonzo
What do you mean it’s impossible to deport so many people? It’s been done before. </wingnut>
DougJ
There was a pretty good analysis of the speech in WaPo. It said that Bush blew his chance when he didn’t stand up to the Tancredistas in the House at the end of last year. Now he’s stuck treating their xenophobic delusions as serious policy proposals. I think that’s about right.
Bush really blew it and I’m not sure he can do anything about it. If he’d told Tancredo and Dobb to shove it a long timea ago, he’d now be able to put in a guest worker program that satisfied both big business and made the Republican party more appealing to Latinos.
Rove should have seen this coming. If I were Bush, I’d be happy to see Karl indicted at this point.
KC
You’re 100% right, John, but that does not matter. It’s just like the bigger the taxcut, the more revenue you pull in theory–no real economists believe it. Why? Because it makes absolutely no sense. So it goes with the border issue.
It just seems like substantial portions of the Republican right are willing to live in a fantasy land right now.
Ben
I’m glad Bush is botching it as badly as he is… and also showing latino voters just where they stand with 60% of the Republican base.
This is a huge wedge into the Republican party for a lot of reasons. It drives the more “liberal” and business oriented Republicans towords the pro-business wing of the Democratic party… (Let’s not forget which Administration brought us NAFTA.), it drives away the latino vote, and it discourages the real rabid right from voting at all.
Pooh
Not to quibble, but it works fine in theory…in theory. If you go from 100% to 99% marginal rates, it makes perfect sense that revenue will improve. The problem is that no empirical economic study will show that U.S. marginal rates are such that any cuts will increase government revenues (increase growth, perhaps, but it’s not rocket science to say that the it’s more efficient to cut taxes on lower income people to spur growth, as they spend at a much higher marginal rate).
Mean Gene
Aren’t the Powerline trio from Minnesota? Why aren’t they focusing on the border in their backyard? This country is INFESTED with Canadians. Haven’t they seen the hard-hitting documentary Trey Parker and Matt Stone made a few years back? Blame Canada, indeed. Some of them speak FRENCH, for Chrissakes.
Marcus Wellby
This country is INFESTED with Canadians.
Yes, and those damned Canadians take all the low-wage hockey jobs that American athletes will not.
Caleb
Well…if Powerline hated it…..it really couldn’t have been that bad at all.
;-)
Tom
The “deporting 11 million” is a false argument against border control. Fine the employers of illegal aliens and the jobs will dry up. No jobs, no illegal aliens. They will self-deport.
Davebo
I have no idea what to make of John’s last sentence.
Tongue in cheek?
JWeidner
Well, as seen last year, those dang Canadians are certainly driving hockey players’ wages down. I mean, for cryin’ out loud, the league had to install a salary cap!
Gold Star for Robot Boy
Beat me to it, dammit.
neil
We have got to do something about the illegal immigration problem in this country. And after that, we have to do something about the problem where stores have to restock their shelves every week.
srv
If the “conservatives” aren’t completely and utterly wiped out by 2008, I almost wish GW could run for a 3rd term…
I remember my first trip into MSP. I hadn’t gotten out of the terminal before I’d heard the N-word three times. The W-word twice (once directed to a passenger getting off my flight). I had to stop and think about the last time I’d heard those words in public conversation in Houston. I couldn’t remember.
VidaLoca
And the landscaping — what about the landscaping?
Oh, the inanity…
Davebo
OK I give.
What’s the “W” word.
Steve
I’m going to stick up for Minneapolis and the Midwest in general by saying that you had a pretty atypical experience. But yeah, there is a little more xenophobia resulting from the fact that it’s a global village, and Minnesota isn’t all 99% lilywhite Iowegians any more.
And, by the way, maybe I’m totally off my game today, but I totally can’t think of what the W-word would be.
D. Mason
“W” the most vile “word” in the english language.
Mr Furious
Um, what’s the W-word?
srv
Texan for a Mexican crossing the Rio Grande. Wet.
Saying that to a Hispanic American would get your ass kicked.
tBone
I’m guessing it has to do with illegal immigrants from Mexico, specifically them crossing the river.
Mr Furious
I think this speech is going to go down as a watershed moment for this Presidency…
The moment when even his casual base* looked at him and said:
“What is he talking about?”
“Is he serious? National Guard to defend against Mexico?”
“Anything about WMD from Tijuana?”
“Come on, you are really messing up the TiVo for my season finales.”
He took a bad plan, and took it public in a big way. And I don’t think it fooled anyone.
—
* By “casual base” I mean those who reflexively support the President, put magnets on the cars, etc, but don’t pay close attention to everything. He unmasked himself to those people last night, and I think he is going to pay. Hopefully the Congressional Republicans pay right along with him.
Mr Furious
Yeah, that’s the only “W” I could think of…
srv
Well, MSP may not be, but I’ve spent alot of time in Minn, Iowa, SD. They’re easily over 95% lily white. And they all love to remind us how racist we are down there in TX.
When I go back to Iowa every summer, if you substituted “blacks” for every “Vietnamese” reference I hear, I’d swear I was in Dallas 1968.
Davebo
SRV,
Gotcha.
Ironic that this all comes up as a “W” is washing and ironing my clothes at home today and about a dozen “W”‘s are replacing rotted siding on my home.
A lot of people have no idea what they are actually suggesting in this debate. And of course, the only reason we are even having this debate is because Dubya is looking more and more like Nixon every day.
Pretty pathetic when you’ve let things get so out of control you have to profer a wedge issue that drives a wedge between you and your base.
Gratefulcub
I don’t understand the W blew it meme at all. For him to have blown it, there had to be something he could have said that would have been a winner. I don’t think there is.
he couldn’t say anything that would work with both ends of the spectrum. so, he actually found middle ground, where most of us reside. It is politics over policy, but atleast the ideology was middle of the road.
The big sticking point for me is the use of the National Guard. Is there anyone out there that thinks 6,000 guardsmen are going to make any difference? It isn’t, and he knows it. He is using the Guard for pure politics. He is disrupting lives for his own political gain.
And, it isn’t as if we have an over abundence of NG. I have a friend that was supposed to finish his obligation next month, so they called him up to active duty this week. if we aren’t letting Guardsmen out when their time is up, we don’t need to give them more duties.
Pb
Doctor Gonzo,
ROFL–great stuff. Who’s the quasi-skinhead on World Nut Daily?
Steve
Not to mention that we arguably elected a “W” as President.
The fundamental political problem is that they chose to focus on an issue which completely divides the GOP base from its big-business constituency. Big business doesn’t mind if you pass a Gay Marriage Amendment; they’ve formed a happy alliance with the evangelicals on judicial nominations; but they completely oppose the idea of a real crackdown on illegal immigrants, therefore it won’t happen.
I have no idea why the Rove-types chose to make this the signature issue for 2006, but it wouldn’t be the first time they knew more than me. Still, the early indications are that it isn’t doing much for the party.
Steve
TPMmuckraker sends along this gem, from December 2005.
Pb
Gratefulcub,
On the other hand, we could have used all those national guardsmen last year, on the Gulf Coast (not the Persian Gulf). I guess this year we might be slightly more prepared if a hurricane tries to illegally cross into the United States through Mexico…
srv
As much as it pains me, I’ll give GW some credit.
Karl is thinking about the next southern strategy. The republican party doesn’t have the numbers in the decades to come by milking the old southern strategy. They know they can’t win in the future w/o making some real inroads into the Hispanic vote.
With GW this low, what does it matter anymore?
Gratefulcub
Not to worry about hurricanes, bush has a plan. When asked about residents of the gulf coast living in trailers that will be destroyed by hurricanes, and NO not having levees, and hurricane season coming up quick, he responded……..
“Well, we just pray that a hurricane doesn’t hit.”
Just pray.
Perry Como
Well that pretty much sums up why President Bush thinks sending the NG to the border is a good idea. There is no problem the Federal government can’t fix by throwing money at it.
Tim F.
Damn, I was just wrapping up part 1 of an eleven-part series on how the Mountaineers will suck worse than an Olsen twins movie. If I want to avoid the boot I’d better boil it down to one sentence and hope that John doesn’t notice: Ronald Ramon has two years left, beeyotch.
Gratefulcub
What is a ‘significant penalty’? And, are they supposed to pay all their estimated taxes for as long as they have been here? And, learn English?
Sig penalty: $10,000?
Back Taxes for 10 years: $20,000?
English classes: $1,000?
There is no ‘priceless’ joke coming.
So, someone that came to this country with nothing, then worked for 10 years in the fields for cash, at about $5 an hour, that sent 50% of that money to Mexico, is supposed to raise $31,000 in cash to get citizenship?
Is that reasonable? Is it even the slightest bit attainable for most undocumented immigrants? I guess it sounds reasonable to someone that has never had to worry about money a day in his life.
The Other Steve
I live around Minneapolis, and I have no clue what you’re talking about. I hardly ever hear those words anywhere. The N-word, maybe from some rapster gang bangers but that’s about it.
You get out in the rural parts of the country, maybe.
That’s ok. I feel sorry for you. At least up here, in 2009 we get to be rid of GW Bush. you still got to live with the bastard in your state.
Darrell
Well said. And you’re right that the ‘deporting 11 million’ BS is a false argument. We need vigorous crackdowns on businesses that hire illegals more than we need more border guards.
The Other Steve
I don’t think Rove ever intended it. Bush has always intended since 2000 to implement a guest-worker program. His plans were derailed by 9/11.
If his approval ratings weren’t so low, the GOP would be walking in lockstep trying to figure out a way to piss off the left with this.
The Other Steve
The harsh reality is I suspect you’d just end up with 11 million extra homeless persons, and/or a vast underground economy(which largely already exists).
It’d stop the big employers who bus these guys up here, but it wouldn’t result in anyone leaving.
Caroline
Here’s the rub: the Republican party has won elections by scapegoating. First it was blacks, then it was gays and now it’s hispanics. The only problem with this scapegoating is that there are too many people of hispanic descent who are taking this personally.
I guess they didn’t learn from Pete Wilson’s loss and the collapse of the GOP in CA.
The Other Steve
Two of them are.
I know assrocket works at TCF bank, which is known as the bank in town who exploits poor and stupid people. Nobody of any means uses that bank, they instead bank at USBank or Wells Fargo, or some smaller ones.
D. Mason
People from the north love to demonize southerners as racist hillbillies while they enjoy their near slave labor from Mexican illegals.
Gratefulcub
How do we crack down on businesses? How do we set up a system to make it easy for businesses to instantly check the status of their workers?
Do employers only have to check the status of brown potential employees?
My family farms. I suppose they own some of the last family farms in the country. They can’t get the local kids to work for $7 an hour in the fields, so they hire Mexicans. What system is in place to allow them to check the legal status of the workers, that isn’t cost prohibitive?
Punchy
My feelings, exactly. When Tan-racist-o goes and declares anything NOT deportation “amnesty”, does he even stop to think what these immigrants would have to pay to get citizenship? Not a chance in the world any of these guys could cough up that much scratch….This has 100% chance of legalizing 0% of the immigrants.
Darrell
Oh cub, I love the part about checing the status of “brown” potential employees. Fuck you and your side’s constant BS unjustified accusations of racism
EVERYONE has to provide a SS card/number to apply for a job… even whitey. Isn’t that something? Only a couple of things need to be in place: 1) on-line verification that the SS card/number is valid and 2) biometric fingerprint data linked to a SS number
Immigrants entering this country legally via airports already have to have fingerprint and retinal scans in a database. The system is already in place.
Gratefulcub
Punchy,
I couldn’t decipher your tone:
Meaning that it is good policy or bad? Should the path to citizenship be easier or harder in your opinion?
Krista
The horror…I hear they’re everywhere – even on the American blogs!
Gratefulcub
Darrell,
That was a completely uncalled for and asinine response. I was asking questions, and not making statements. I do think the best way to go about this is to crack down on businesses, I just believe it is a bit more complex than ‘start cracking donw on business.’
EVERYONE has to provide a SS card/number to apply for a job… even whitey.
DougJ
We need vigorous crackdowns on businesses that hire illegals more than we need more border guards.
Agreed.
Gratefulcub
Oops, not done, I somehow sent anyway.
SS cards are easily bought. The brown people comment isn’t racist. If we are cracking down on businesses that use illegal Mexican labor, then they are going to start scrutinizing brown potential employees. Legal immigrants will be at a disadvantage in the labor market because they will be riskier to employ.
Only a couple of things need to be in place: 1) on-line verification that the SS card/number is valid and 2) biometric fingerprint data linked to a SS number
Pooh
They must be so proud. (Note to self, use WF when I move back…)
As for MN (and WI as well) in MSP (or Madison/Milwaukee) you won’t hear the slurs that much (except for my old boss who complained about a bank ‘jewing him’ looked right at me, said ‘sorry [pooh], but you know what I mean right?’ Good times…) Unless you play basketball at one of the better health-clubs, and then you hear the N-word all the time, but always, always black-on-black or it gets real, real ugly, real, real fast.
Gratefulcub
Jesus H Christ, I did it again.
You act like that is no big deal. It is. It is expensive.
My entire point is that the crackdown on businesses is a bit more difficult than some make it seem. At the same time, a crackdown isn’t completely fair to business owners until we deliver a system that allows them to easily check the status of potential employees.
Krista
Charming. What on earth do you even say to someone like that?
Tom
Not that hoary old myth again…
Caroline Says:
“I guess they didn’t learn from Pete Wilson’s loss and the collapse of the GOP in CA.”
From LA Times George Skelton May 11, 2006:
Here are some data to chew on:
• Since 1994, the Democrats’ slice of voter registration has fallen from 48.9% to 42.7%, according to the secretary of state. Republicans also have lost, but much less, dropping from 37.1% to 34.6%.
The big gainer has been declined to state, leaping from 10.3% to 18.3%.
• Over the past 26 years, the trend has been even more precipitous for Democrats. In 1980, they amounted to 53% of the California electorate, roughly 10 points higher than today. Republicans were about the same then as today.
• Four in 10 voters who are age 18 to 24 are registered as independents or aligned with a third party, according to the Public Policy Institute of California. In Los Angeles County, it’s 36.3%, Cervantes says.
• Illustrating the increasing clout of Latino voters in L.A. County, they amount to 35% of registered voters under 25, Cervantes adds.
• Statewide, independent registration among all Latinos is higher than for whites, reports the policy institute. While 55% of Latinos are Democrats, 22% are independents.
Mark Baldassare, pollster for the policy institute: “Many people who used to define themselves as Democrat are not now. It’s a trend that should worry Democrats.”
Right here in this big blue state, where the tale of Republicans being ravaged by Prop. 187 may be an urban myth. In truth, neither party is producing heroes or new voters.
ppGaz
All right, Darrell! Let’s let our hair down and get real!
I KNEW you could use the F-word. I just knew it.
DougJ
I just got back from Starbucks and people were throwing around the v-word and the s-word like it was nothing. What is the world coming to?
Pooh
Should have been “I quit,” but alas…
Steve
Uh, not to have a Michelle Malkin moment or anything, but it’s pretty common knowledge that Hindrocket works for this Minneapolis law firm. Maybe TCF Bank is one of his clients or something, I dunno. All I can say is, I’d hate to be the poor secretary who has to screen his calls.
Anyway, we seem to have a bipartisan consensus that more needs to be done to crack down on the employers who hire illegal immigrants. Only thing is, if big business doesn’t want something, good luck getting anyone except the Naderites to push your agenda. Maybe if the Democrats still cared about getting union votes they’d push this kind of agenda, but it seems like we’re about a generation past that. Here in New York, the only way businesses get busted for hiring illegal labor is that the unions catch them at it and scream bloody murder until the authorities have no choice but to do something.
Darrell
As if you have a clue what you’re talking about
ppGaz
Well, it’s well said, but wrong. First of all, the widespread “crackdown” you guys are imagining will not happen. For the same reason it has never happened, it’s too complicated and expensive. It’s cheaper to do occasional, symbolic enforcement, and let the status quo continue. That has always been the reality, and will continue to be.
Second, even if you could get the resources to gin up this big crackdown, the majority of the illegal employees will just go underground and get reemployed elsewhere. The enforcement necessary to turn them all all around is not practical, not affordable, and not even remotely likely.
Orogeny
The present situation is like ignoring prostitutes while arresting their customers. As long as the bordellos are allowed to thrive, they will draw customers
Instead of spending more on controlling the border, we need to work to reduce the incentive for crossing that border. Right now there are only about 2000 INS agents in the U.S., TWO of whom work in Alabama. Those numbers should be increased substantially and their mission should be to find and arrest the owners of the businesses employing illegal immigrants. Toss a few businessmen in jail, impose some serious fines on a few more and those jobs would disappear, with a commensurate decline in illegal immigration.
Krista
And you didn’t bring me anything? Bastard…
Darrell
I don’t agree with you often Steve.. but that was well said.
Tom
You won’t need a “big crackdown”. One or two large companies, some big hefty fines and the companies will realize that the price of hiring illegals is no longer cheap.
If you need illegal alien labor to make your business model work, you don’t deserve to be in business.
Pb
Gratefulcub,
Could this be a harbringer of a new Faith-based Emergency Management Agency to come?
Punchy
Grateful– no idea whether good or bad. I’m just angry chair that these xenophobes continue to call EVERYTHING “amnesty” despite the ridiculous amount of crap one would have to do to become a citizen.
Seriously: Bush’s plan could include a provision that all illegals would need to get sex changes, followed by a gig in Gitmo, voice lessons, a sacrifice of one’s first child, forced sodomy, and the requirement to buy every American a Christmas gift, and they’d STILL call it amnesty. ALL THEY WANT is deportation. No middle ground. No common sense. Xenophobes…the lot of ’em
Gratefulcub
Well then Darrell, since you are such an expert in biometrics and social security cards, please illuminate us.
Please tell us how easy it is for business owners to check the legal status of a person before hiring them as a dishwasher.
The Other Steve
I meant Johnson, although assrocket probably worked there too at one time or something. Powerline complaining about TCF boycott
I note that Johnson no longer mentions he’s a VP at TCF.
easaba
If you get vigorous enforcement of the employment laws, watch your food and construction prices go up. Currently the employer has to provide due diligence in ascertaining that a person is legal to work in the USA, usually checking some documents. Fair enough, Now I have been doing some photo essay in the California farmers and almost to a person, they understand that the people they are hiring are illegal. But the farmers are not in trouble because they have done their due diligence, our they have contracted out the labor, who is responsible for the due diligence. It is really difficult to get the farmers, so they have no reason to worry about penalties. The workers on the other hand do have to worry about the penalties, they get deported if caught. But it is better than at home, so they stay and work. This inequity in the power really really distorts the labor market in these fields (farm and construction). It makes the labor in these fields much cheaper than it should be.
Take home, if you start coming down hard on the employers then they will pass the new labor prices onto the consumer, watch your lettuce go up 100% real fast.
Gratefulcub
Punchy,
OK, we are in agreement then. i like the way you rant.
The voters, yes. I don’t think the Tancredo’s of the poli world really want a deportation policy. Just as Delay and Frist never want Roe to be overturned. They have found success running and raising money on these issues. If we ever deported all the Mexicans and walled off the border, who would they hate?
ppGaz
No, quite wrong. The symbolic, show crackdowns and “make an example” busts have never put a dent in the problem, never in 50 years of watching the cycle at work right here in Arizona, which according to our governor last night, is the the state with the most border control traffic, the most interdictions. And the industry here that employs illegals …. everywhere. I assure you, those show busts will accomplish nothing, just as they do in the so-called “war on drugs.” It’s all feelgood bullshit. They can’t possibly shut it all down. Never gonna happen.
LITBMueller
I don’t understand what was so wrong with The Decider’s Royal Proclomation. I mean, all he said is that he’s going to do what he has always done: spend a ton of money, and send in the troops! ;)
IMHO, this is pure Rovian genius. The Decider is done – he can’t run again. Let him take the heat on a divisive issue. Smart Congressional Republicans will figure out that Bush is being set up as a punching bag, and punch accordingly, firing up the base in their districts and getting the vote out to stop those dern Meckz’cans.
Meanwhile, Iraq is pushed straight off of the front page. Lest we forget, “We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality – judiciously, as you will – we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.”
The Other Steve
And for my Michelle Malkin moment…
http://www.aflcio.org/issues/civilrights/immigration/
Aren’t they supporting what the Unions want? The unions want to unionize the immigrants.
ppGaz
Didn’t Darrell and TallDave say that?
Darrell
God you are fucked up
ppGaz
Fixed it.
The Other Steve
Oh, I had to respond to this one…
When was the last time you checked the SS card of a service provider? Plumber, Electrician, Landscaping, Carpentry? Street food vendor? shoe shine guy?
Do you check the license for every restaurant you go to? Hair stylist?
Most small businesses exist of a single person, who is boss and employee.
Gratefulcub
Tancredo is about hate. He is building a career on it. For him, Mexicans in the Southwest are good.
Funny thing is Darrell, I have been respectful toward you. No personal attacks going back months. i take your shit, and respond with misplaced respect.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not pretending you care, but I am done with ya.
Gratefulcub
When was the last time you saw YOUR SS Card? I don’t have one. I remember having one, years ago. It was basically a peice of flimsy cardboard.
I am sure it was ‘biometric cardboard with digital fingerprints’, but it looked like paper to me.
The Other Steve
I laminated mine. But yeah, it’s just paper. No biometrics, no digital stuff.
I’m pretty certain I know where it is at too. It’s in my safe with my passport and car title and the gold coin collection I wish I had.
ppGaz
Had to share this chuckler, courtesy of DKos:
Punchy
Gays, gals, girls who vote, guys who like guys, gun regulation, Gobstoppers, Milkduds, men with education, manna, misicule mammories, the military, math, science, sex, sex education, Spector, Syria, sugared cereal, and social security.
I may have missed one or fifteen. hundred.
ed
Darrell said:
From http://www.socialsecurity.gov
regarding verification of Social Security numbers:
PROPER USE OF SSNVS (Social Security Number Verification Service)
Any other suggestions, Mr. Know-It-All? That one is not useable by Social Security standards. Or are you a Decider, so the laws and rules don’t apply?
Darrell
That’t one of the key problems. No fingerprint data on SS cards.. not even an old photograph. yet, I have scanner and photo data all over my driver’s license.. ID cards with biometric data are cheap these days. And we already have databases in place which store this data for immigrants entering the US.
Gratefulcub
Interesting, since the plan is not to train them at all. They are going on 2-3 week deployments in lieu of their summer training session.
That summer training that could be used to train in hurricane relief efforts. But, I guess if we all pray hard enough, we won’t have any hurricanes this year.
Actually, we will probably need to outlaw gay marriage to appease God enough to spare us this year.
Pb
Punchy,
Don’t coddle them–that’d be like giving them an all-expenses taxpayer-paid trip to a resort, with chicken, and two types of fruit!
Frat pranks…
Now *that’s* serious. I hope you’re talking about adoption here. You baby killer.
</wingnut>
Vlad
This is probably a stupid question, but why don’t we just raise the immigration quotas for Mexicans?
Gratefulcub
But but but………we can all get new SS cards with Digital fingerprints…..and uh uh ……. All the farmers can get biometric fingerprint scanners that are hooked up to a large database storing everyone’s fingerprints……and it will be easy, and cheap……
Punchy
Better idea–why dont we just annex Mexico? If we took Mexico as America….well…we’d have nearly zero percent illegal immigrants (aside from those damn Cannucks), zero Mexicans period, Cancun all to ourselves, and burritos from here to the moon.
Bob In Pacifica
The last time any country tried to make that many people disappear was Nazi Germany.
Chickenwing
Because legal immigrants aren’t as easy to enslave. They have a tendancy to resist being tied to the production line. Also, you have to pay them more too.
Gratefulcub
This reminds me of my favorite argument against any type of ‘amnesty.’
“It isn’t fair to let them break the law and jump ahead of others that are immigrating legally.”
How many unskilled laborers from Mexico and South/Central America are we allowing to ‘legally immigrate’?
My guess is 2.
Darrell
Well, not free, but cheap. Microsoft fingerprint readers are often on sale below $20 each. Fingerprint data is not that big of a deal, and we’ve already got a database in place for immigrants. You were wrong to say it would be this collosally expensive project to undertake.
Gratefulcub
Chickenwing,
Who were you before ‘name yourself after meat’ day?
~FreeRangeChicken
Darrell
Godwin
Darrell
Given that so much of our immigration policy is predicated upon family reunification, that comment is not keeping with a very ‘reality based’ perspective.
Perry Como
Darrell, are you recommending a National ID card?
Gratefulcub
What about Whitey? Remember, I am claiming racism if I say we are only going to check brown people. But, “We’ve already got a database in place for immigrants.” What if I want a job? How do they check me? Or am I exempt for being a whitey?
And, you really believe that building a database of all fingerprints, infrastructure including biometric fp scanners for every business, SS/ID cards with fingerprints that can be read electronically but can’t be counterfeited……..
You beleive that this is going to be cheap and easy. And your response to me asking that question, not even in respons to you, was to tell me how ignorant I am.
Your level of petulance is astounding.
Darrell
Yes.. Please explain for us how it would be significantly different than a Social security card or passport?
Paul Wartenberg
It’s interesting to note:
1) Preliminary polling on the speech showed most Americans support Bush on this one.
2) Nearly all the ‘conservative’ talking heads on this – the blogwriters as well as the mainstreamers – are screaming that Bush isn’t going far enough. And there’s enough of these talking heads discussing draconian measures (like you mentioned, a full deportation of 11 million illegals) that are bound to upset the Latino population here in the U.S., even the ones that are fourth or fifth-generation Hispanics. That Republican Big Tent? If it isn’t gone now it will be in 5…4…3…
3) Bush’s plan still doesn’t address the long term problems of illegal immigration. The temporary deployment of the Guard isn’t going to do much unless the gov’t institutes greater funding and staffing of the established border guard system, and I honestly don’t see Bush or his Congressional cronies openly increasing such funding into a bureaucracy they have no faith in. Privatizing this would be akin to the same problems they’re having with port security.
4) An accurate comparison, considering some of the right-wing bloggers are making the same observation. Does Godwin’s Law apply to immigration policy?
Ryan S.
5000 total divided evenly between all countries, no one country is allowed more than another.
The only real way to get a visa is to have a family member already here legally.
Pb
Chickenwing,
Well now, that’s rather harsh–it’s closer to indentured servitude. But either one would be perfectly legal–you just can’t make this shit up…
Ryan S.
Oh, thats every year.
Gratefulcub
Godwin’s law is so 15 minutes ago, we use the Darrell Law here. I think everyone understands how that law works.
That makes no sense. Zero. None. Do you have any idea how hard it is to get family members over here. Any? Any at all? Ask the Indians trying to get their wives over.
Darrell
counterfeiting biometric information is far, far more difficult than counterfeiting a Social security card without even a photo
You have got one fucked up ignorant view of race. Seriously, you have a problem. Though you no doubt see yourself as ‘enlightened’. In case you didn’t know, not all illegal immigrants are ‘brown’ and not all legal residents are white. I hope this information helps
Gratefulcub
Easier if you have family, but still next to impossible
Pb
Darrell,
Learn to google–the occasional fact won’t kill you. Probably.
Gratefulcub
You call me names, you rant and you rave, but you avoid the point.
Your plan involves a database of all citizens’ and immigrants’ fingerprints. Not just the immigrants.
Petulance.
Darrell
What do the Indians have to do with a US immigration policy tilted toward family reunification?
Perry Como
A Social Security card is supposed to be used only for tracking Social Security benefits. It is never considered a valid form of ID on its own. A passport is only required for foreign travel. It is a document issued by the Federal government since the Fed deals with border control.
It’s not surprising that you support National ID cards, considering your support of nannystatism. I just wanted to confirm it.
Darrell
You’re so full of hate, you throw accusations of racism when they’re is none. It’s ugly and it’s wrong.. but it’s who you are. Re-read your posts on this very thread if you doubt me
D. Mason
I can’t believe we have a “conservative” (darrell) promoting the idea of biometric ID for all workers. That’s insane. As a conservative I would prefer to have 50 million illegals over a nation wide database of Americans fingerprints. WTF is that shit. Yeah that’s exactly what we need, the government having “seperate” databases with our names, addresses, employment info, political affiliations, phone records AND fingerprints. Yeah brilliant fucking idea you fascist fuck.
Gratefulcub
They come here to work, and they can’t get visas for their wives.
You do know what I mean by Indian, right?
Darrell
State driver’s license data is shared to federal agencies. Tell us then how that is significantly different from a national ID?
Joey
And the tequila. Don’t forget about that. We’d have enough tequila to fiesta all the time. And if that ain’t your thing, well we’ll have Corona too.
Gratefulcub
I will say again, Darrell isn’t conservative.
D. Mason
Clearly, thats why I put it in “”. Still, he’s giving us a bad name, along with his beloved fuhrer who also claims to be conservative.
Darrell
I asked the question, because you seem to be suggesting, out ignorance no doubt, that Indians have specific problems in immigrating not faced by other immigrant groups. If that’s not what you meant, then why did you pick out Indians, rather than immigrants in general?
Gratefulcub
My only accusation of racism was concerning Tom Tancredo’s use of racism for political gain. I didn’t call you racist, I just repeated your use of the word ‘whitey’ for snark.
I am definitely full of shit, but not hate.
Darrell
I’ll bet you see yourself as intelligent and rational.. right?
Darrell
Your erudite argument is sooo persuasive. Tell us why having a national ID = fascism? shit for brains
Gratefulcub
Because I write in these ridiculous chat rooms too conversationally. I have recently read some anecdotal stories of Indians trying to get visas for their families. I never intended to suggest that it was an Indian problem.
LITBMueller
C’mon, Perry! Don’t you know? Those stupid righties – their solution to everything is “more government.” The Repubs always just throw more money at problems. And, when they’re not busy wasting our tax money on useless programs, they’re looking for more ways to interfere in the the daily lives of Americans. They want to create Big Brother and to be the world’s policeman!
Sheesh! [irony detector: OFF]
Krista
Mm-hm. If your government keeps up this kind of disturbing behaviour, I think you’ll see those numbers shrink. No disrespect to any of you, your country’s great, but right now, I wouldn’t move to the U.S. no matter what you paid me.
RonB
Really, though, who wants to chop up the chicken and pick the fruit? The forces that led us to outsource port management are similar to the ones at work in agriculture and food production. We’re just not in the business anymore. Americans want service/technical jobs, and expect to be paid well for them. It is not particularly fair to use desperate Mexicans to fill the gap and pay them a pittance far better than the zero they had, but that’s where we are at. If we feel a need to stop the absorption of Mexico’s poor because it is becoming overwhelmingly difficult to integrate the numbers and there is no need for more unskilled workers, so be it, and let’s get to work paying these people already here a wage they can live on to help them help us. Hell, I’ve even discussed the idea of spanish speaking military units with other Latino soldiers- our bilingual resources already in the service are vast, and in disuse. Shit, it’d be far fuckin’ easier to train them than it currently is to train Arabic speakers. It’s a stretch of an idea and Im sure I haven’t considered the negative ramifications, but they wouldnt be the first people trying to gain citizenship by serving.
11 million people is a lotta folks, the problem is already out of hand but the humane and sensible thing to do is try to bring them into the fold. I suspect PPGaz is right, though, things will proceed as they have. The only other option is to direct investment into Mexico instead of our strategic competitor China.
Perry Como
Because the sharing of information is not the same as a biometric database run by the Federal government. You are, once again, advocating for the massive increase of the scope of Federal power.
Do you think there should be a Federal gun registry?
Gratefulcub
Should the government be able to collect a database of our personal information, including fingerprints, DNA, bank records, and phone records?
Should the NSA be able to conduct surveillance on American citizens? Without a warrant or judicial oversight?
Should journalist be prosecuted for printing leaks of state secrets?
Should the president be allowed to declare an American citizen an enemy combatant and disappear him without charges or any legal recourse for the accused?
Darrell
Here are the facts. Looks like a LOT of Indians entering the US through family unification. Of course Mexico leads all other countries by far. I don’t think it’s smart or fair to allow 1 country, Mexico, to so dominate our immigration.
Darrell
You’re changing the subject away from national ID cards. When you’re ready to discuss that, let us know
DougJ
As long as we’re at it with a National ID card, how about a National Hall Pass? That way, when you’re at work you can go to and from the bathroom without being harassed by FBI agents. If you display the pass, that is.
What do you think? Are the people here ready to get behind this effort?
D. Mason
Yes, of course I do. And as an intelligent and rational person I have the sense to know that I must not always display intelligence or rationality, especially when dealing with a loyalist government shill. It’s a waste of time to try to rationalize with spitting morons.
It is a tenet of fascism. Along with such other gems as government controlled press, domestic spy networks, secret prisons, and of course torture. Get it? No of course you don’t because you’re too busy fawning over our dictator.
Darrell
How does a biometric” database (fingerprints), compared to one with your photo, physical description and address, in any way equal to a “massive increase” in the scope of Federal power?
You can’t give a good answer to that question, because there is no rational justification for making the claim that adding fingerprint data somehow signifies a “massive increase” in Federal power. The Feds already have access to our drivers license data with photo and address.
Gratefulcub
Fine.
Sorry to repeat what has already been said, but…
When the hell did the Republicans, while claiming to be conservative, decide that the expansion of the federal government is the key to everything.
National ID cards with biometric fingerprints, with scanners set up for every business? Where else do you want us to use these cards?
I am scared shitless. I thought our democracy could withstand anything. Turns out, it might not be able to handle 19 hijackers and one power hungry administration. It is depressing.
Extraordinary rendition, enemy combatants refused their 4th rights, NSA hijinx (we haven’t seen the tip of the iceburg yet), one party trying to turn the other into traitors and terrorist sympathizers.
And all of this is supposedly ‘conservative’?
Conservatives report on the journalists.
tBone
I think that’s going too far. FBI agents shouldn’t be allowed to arrest you if you have a pass, but they should still be able to harass you. After all, you’re using the bathroom on company time, you slacker.
Darrell
I wasn’t aware there was any US military shortage of Spanish/English bilingual soldiers. I understood the main problem was finding enough arabic speakers. What is your point?
I believe the military has a program in place for decades now, that if you served in our military, you gain residency and American citizenship.
Perry Como
The Feds only have access to that information if there is a valid reason for them to gain access to it (like a passport). You are changing the default state, which is States control the method and procedures for issuing drivers licenses, to a new way that says the Federal government controls the method and procedures for issuing drivers licenses. And you are suggesting that a new component be added: biometric data. Face it, you are a proponent of a massive increase in the scope of Federal power.
Now, would you support a Federal gun registry if it would help fight the War on Terror?
D. Mason
May 11, 2005
I have a comment in moderation(too many links I guess) as a reply to you darrell, feel free to wait for it, or not.
Mr Furious
Flimsy paper indeed. Mine is like an old business card after it went through the wash. That, and the fact that I “signed” it when I was probably fourteen, and that “signature” bears no resemblence to my current legal signature , nor does it even use my complete name.
I suppose its authentic worn-outness means it couldn’t possibly be newly forged…
Punchy
I think if this keeps up, the only problem the U.S. will have with our Maple Leafed Brethren is emigration. I see Canada erecting a wall to keep out Democrats long before we put up some half-assed fence to keep out Howie Mandel or the Barenaked Ladies….
Pb
Perry Como,
Well, it’d fit right in to the current slippery slope argument already at work here.
“You can’t give a good answer to that question, because there is no rational justification for making the claim that adding [gun] data somehow signifies a “massive increase” in Federal power. The Feds already have access to our drivers license data with photo and address.”
You know, you never know what you might find at a crime scene. How about a federal DNA registry? How about we require that national ID card to track all purchases? How about we put unique RFID tags in your underwear? Hey, they already have your photo and your address–what’s your problem? You must have something to hide!
Pb
Mr Furious,
Hahah, same here, except that I was even younger, and mine *has* been through the wash. It even caused the ink (in my signature) to bleed somewhat…
Darrell
Anyone else care to audition for the lead role as drama queen?
‘Scared shitless’? All because we have some ID verification on our Social security numbers to prevent the massive fraud which is currently taking place? I take it you are also scared shitless to carry a driver’s license with photo, address, driver’s record, and criminal record (if applicable) scans, which the Feds have full access to.. or having a social security number shared by the IRS, Social security, as well as local govt. in voter registration and property tax
Explain for us.. anybody, how having a National ID is a “massive” nanny state power grab compared to what we are required to carry and report now? Explain it
And if National ID is too scary, then how about just having fingerprint data on our Social security cards, which is the most pressing issue to crack down on illegal immigrants using fraudulent SS numbers?
tBone
Darrell in 20 years:
You lefties are so irrational. The government already has a database of our fingerprints, DNA, retinal scans, phone and Internet records, purchase history, video rental records, GPS location traces, and iPod playlists – how can you possibly claim that mandatory microchipping and barcoding of all citizens is a “massive increase” in Federal power?
D. Mason
I explained, in my moderated post, how National ID is a classic tenet of fascism. I guess you’ll just have to wait for it to make it to the thread to read the whole thing.
Perry Como
Some people seem to have forgotten that government power is inversely proportional to the rights of citizens :(
Gratefulcub
That’s funny, since if you actually read the post, you would have seen that I wasn’t really talking about ID cards at all.
I realize you have honed the GOP skill of cutting and pasting without context, but a hint: it works better if the original text isn’t on the same page.
LITBMueller
Well, how about Soviet-era tyranny? “Show me your papers! They are not in order!!!” Guess we shouldn’t be surprised at this, from the “red” states.
A little history lesson:
– Adolf Hitler, 1933, after passage of the Enabling Act, which gave him power as Chancellor to protect the homeland after the Reichstag fire.
Josef Goebbels remaked on the event:
Hey, we have one of those Deciders, too! (Sorry, Godwin.)
Orogeny
Can someone help me on this? I’m just trying to understand the vehement opposition to the national ID card.
From what I’ve been able to tell a national ID card sufficient to enable us to positively ID citizens/legal/illegal immigrants would need the following: name, birth date, sex, ID number, a digital photograph, address and fingerprints. Having served in the military and worked over the years as a police officer and a stockbroker, I know that the Feds already have this information on file for me.
So, what’s the big deal?
The Other Steve
I always liked this Heinlein quote:
Political tags – such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth – are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surely curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort.
I’d hate to live next to Darrell. Having him peaking in my windows all the time would be kind of creapy.
The Other Steve
It’s communist.
Darrell
No? Here is the sentence you wrote immediately preceding your “I’m scared shitless” comment:
Tell us again how I copied and pasted to take your quote out of context?
D. Mason
Orogeny the problem is with giving the government even more ways to keep tabs on us. I mean, what would be wrong with them having “security” cameras installed in all our homes? They could protect us from burglars that way and hey the patriot act already gives them “sneak and peek” powers right?
Tom
“What’s that smell?”
“We’ve hit the Bush = Hitler dead skunk in the road again…”
“Oh.”
Pb
Darrell,
My god man, I already gave you a link, and told you to educate yourself for once–are you illiterate, or just willfully ignorant? What part of “you’ll need a federally approved ID card to travel on an airplane, open a bank account, collect Social Security payments, or take advantage of nearly any government service” don’t you understand?
Further Reading
Perry Como
Here’s a hint Darrell. I don’t have a driver’s license. Haven’t had one since my CA license expired after I moved to a dense urban area of the East coast. I have no desire to get one either since I don’t own a car. If I decide I want to drive a car then I will apply for a license to do so with the state I live in. The Federal government has no business with my state license.
The Federal government also has no right to any of my biometric data unless I am petitioning the Federal government for some privilege or I have commited a crime.
The IRS is the only exception I can think of as far egregious Federal instrusion into our personal lives, but that battle was lost long ago. At least IRS records are not shared widely through the other Federal agencies unless a crime is commited.
Some of us still believe the Constitution limits the power of the Federal government. Others, like you and the rest of the nannystatists, think that the Federal government can solve all of our problems.
I’ll ask a third time, would you support a Federal gun registry?
SeesThroughIt
Mine’s in the glove compartment of my Lamborghini.
Wait a minute…that’s not my Lamborghini!
Darrell
You could use that same “argument” against driver’s license info.
“Once you have our photo, name, address, and SS # on an ID, the next step is the gulags”. Please, get a grip
John S.
That’s provided Darrell makes it on this Earth another 20 years. If he’s as charmng in person as he is on this board, my money is on someone who is the object of so much of his ‘affection’ (homosexual, liberal, minority…) having stuck a shank in him before he makes it that far.
LITBMueller
You’re right. The information contained within is not a big deal. The problem becomes having them in your wallet. How often will you be required to show you card? Under what circumstances? For what purposes? Will they used as a means of identifying and discrimination against people in means not originally intended? Will police be allowed to stop people without even reasonable suspicion in order to check papers?
History is replete with tales of dictatorial regimes, under the ruse of “security,” requiring “identification papers” to be carried at all times. This is the sort of slippery slope that our country has refused to go down for centuries, even in the coldest days of the Cold War. Why are national ID’s more necessary now? Can we really trust an administration as oversight-adverse as this one to control such an ID system?
So, in the end, the question is not so much “what’s the big deal.” Its, “WHY DO YOU REALLY WANT THEM, AND HOW CAN WE BE SURE?”
RonB
I think I said:
(shaking head)You seem to be repeating exactly what I’m saying. What I was suggesting is the possibility of spanish speaking military units as a way to help physically able, of recrutable age immigrants to gain citizenship. English will be part of their training, given by the huge bilingual pool we already have to draw from already serving. That was my point. Feel free to poke holes in it, it’s merely an idea that resonated with a few people.
Gratefulcub
And here is what followed, I don’t find it confusing:
We don’t have ID cards. We do have the other stuff that does in fact scare the hell out of me. I thought we were better than that, but we aren’t. At least not right now.
Pooh
Once again, the mistake everyone is making (well the second mistake, the first is continuing on once the thread has been ‘Darrelled’) is assuming a coherent ideology from the Senator. Despite the massive anti-federalist movement he seems to support, he probably thinks States’ Rights are a good thing too. And doesn’t see the conflict. Seriously, it’s not worth your time explaining why a national ID is a bad idea from a federalist perspective, he won’t get it.
RonB
When is enough?
Darrell
False analogy. Federal gun registries have been used recently (last several years) in federal efforts to confiscate guns in Australia and Canada, and I believe England too.
What then, is the analagous risk from the federal govt having your name, address, and social security number, associated with a photo and fingerprint to prevent fraud? The govt can and has taken guns away with a federal registry.
What are you suggesting the govt would do with an ID containing your name, address, and SS number? You have no good answer because your position is irrational
Orogeny
Other Steve: I thought it was fascist?
D. Mason: I still don’t see the real difference between a national id card and out present system of driver’s licenses, ssi cards, etc. If a Fed wants your driver’s license info it is easily obtainable…NCIC and, in my state, ACJIS have all that info and more. All that a national ID card would require would be one piece of absolutely unique information about you in a format that would be very difficult to counterfeit.
It seems that the arguments you’re presenting could be applied to virtually any type of ID…drivers licenses, draft cards, et al.
r4d20
NO, its definitely there and pretty easy to see.
Orogeny
On the other question. I don’t see any difference between registering my car and registering my gun. Don;t have a problem with either one.
Darrell
I love how Pooh is so above it all, never arguing a point, loftily taking shots as if the truth is on his side.
Gratefulcub
I live in the south, almost. Louisville isn’t actually southern. My favorite response I hear from people that ‘aren’t racist’ besides “They need to speak English” is, “If they want to be Americans, why do they have a Mexican flag?”
i only find this funny because my response is that they see the Mexican flag as a cultural symbol, and they are proud of their culture. This response doesn’t exactly resonate.
Then that same person gets into their truck with a Confederate Flag for a tailgate, because he is ‘proud of his culture.’
Maybe it is just me, but I get a chuckle.
D. Mason
Orogeny I guess that’s just the difference between you and me. You seem to be coming from a position of default trust in the government. I only the other hand do not trust them in the slightest because I believe that if you give them an inch they will take a mile(at gunpoint).
JoeTx
Bush has a plan???
As usual, Bush has a POLITICAL PLAN ONLY, NO CONCRETE POLICY for dealing with an issue..
This pretty much tells you everything you need to know, from TPMMuckraker..
I guess Karl Rove hasn’t given Chertoff his
talking pointsorders yet!Gratefulcub
not true, at all. Pooh argues points, i have argued with him myself. He just doesn’t argue with YOU.
Darrell
That’s a fair point. The only argument which might be made is that gun ownership is specifically protected under the Bill of rights.
D. Mason
Well, unfortunately it’s NOT a cultural symbol, it’s a NATIONAL symbol, of a foriegn nation. Either they want to be a part of America(and accept all that comes with it) or they don’t. It’s pretty fucking simple to me.
Darrell
Well, Orogeny has cogently made pretty much the same point as I’ve been making. But Pooh dishonestly pretends I’m the only one taking that position.
Gratefulcub
Only if you are in a militia
Orogeny
Beat me to it, Gratefulcub.
Darrell
How about approaching it from a standpoint of balance? Certain pieces of information which are not particularly intrusive, fingerprint for example, are needed for identification to prevent fraud. Is that really so unreasonable? Is it really analogous to govt security cams in our homes as you have suggested?
Perry Como
How many governments in the past 100 years have oppressed their populace? The nature of government is to gain power and the nature of humans is to abuse it. Our government is taking small steps in gaining power and you seem perfectly fine with that. I prefer to reign in the power grabs whenever possible and a national ID is a good place to fight.
Mandatory ID checks when a government agent asks, even if you are not doing anything illegal (we’ve already lost that fight too, I fear). The need to scan your papers when you make a financial transaction. The room for abuse is huge. Of course, you’re position is that until an abuse occurs, it’s a-okay. I’d argue that by the time the abuses start, it’s already too late.
My position is very rational when you look at it from a historical context. Government is not meant to be trusted. In fact it is out duty as Americans to distrust government. All governments are prone to abuse if history is our guide.
But when a national ID is looked at through the nanystatist lens, the idea that government is here to help and can solve all of our problems, of course my position seems irrational. Until another J. Edgar Hoover comes along and starts collecting FBI files on political enemies. Or another COINTELPRO is exposed.
Papiere Biette.
Darrell
False. The 2nd amemdment says “the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”
An impromptu militia may be needed to be assembled, made up of those who never before belonged to one.
rayabacus
I don’t see the Feds making a serious attempt to alleviate the illegal workers problem. As some have said they could easily force self-deportation by enforcing existing laws and perhaps adding some significant penalties.
For example if employers were fined $10,000 per illegal worker and double the wages paid to each illegal worker, there would be no incentive for illegal immigration. Provided these were enforced. Perhaps a 2nd and subsequent violations would result in jail time. With jobs drying up, illegals would, in most cases, opt for a return to their homeland.
In the state of Missouri you must now produce either a birth certificate, a US passport, or a green card and a valid passport from your country of origin (with a valid entry notation) in order to get or renew a driver’s license. You must also produce these documents to obtain public assistance. You must provide birth certificates to enroll your children in public schools (including Secondary education). So this state is tackling the illegal worker problem itself, without assistance from the Feds.
Since you must have proof of insurance to obtain plates for a vehicle and you must have a driver’s license to obtain insurance, you must be legal to own and operate a vehicle in this state. It will take some time but Missouri will gradually see a decline in illegal workers as they will migrate to states that have less restrictions on documentation. States where their status will be less questioned, where it will be easier to obtain public assistance.
It is easy to obtain a SS card. It is extremely difficult to obtain a US birth certificate or US passport. I think that the change will be so gradual that there will be no noticable impact on the economy.
Or…I could be wrong. But this is a solution that needs to be tried.
Darrell
Once the govt starts using fingerprint data to round up and/or blackmail citizens, let me know
Sstarr
I’ve a Welsh flag. Which is not really a symbol of a nation. So that’s safe, I suppose. However, my wife has several small representations of the Israeli flag. That’s a symbol of a nation, a culture AND a religion.
Is she as bad bad bad as those bad Mexicans?
D. Mason
My point, and most reasonable people could have gotten it, is that tyranny comes incrementally. One can argue anything as reasonable if theyre willing to perform enough mental gymnastics, but if you look at things like The Real ID Act as part of a larger puzzle It becomes clear that it’s just one more link in a long chain.
A national ID might not be so bad if they didnt already have so many other ways to keep tabs on us, at a point it becomes another inch towards opression. Maybe the information is already there but if they have to actually inconvienience themselves to get my whole profile instead of just demanding my papers the inconvienience will be a deterant from harassment unless they really have something on me.
Darrell
Yes, but you seem to have long crossed the line between healthy skepticism, and irrational fear. An ID card with name, address, ss # and fingerprint data is no massive government overreach as you and others have suggested. That is the point
Tsulagi
Didn’t Assrocket once say he was in awe “of the genius that is George Bush”? Guess he was shocked now. Awwww. Gee, that might mean he’ll pout refusing to swap spit with W for maybe a whole week.
ppGaz
Let’s take a poll:
1) Vote AYE if you think Darrell actually has in his head a set of plans or ideas that “solves” the immigration problem
2) Vote NAY if you think that Darrell actually has in his head only a vauguely anti-lefty string of talking points and talk radio positions that don’t add up to any coherent strategy for anything at all.
My vote is NAY.
John S.
False. Of course, we know if it comes from Darrell then that’s a given. The unedited Second Amendment:
Of course, the context of the militia and the right of the people to bear arms for the purpose of the security of the state completely goes over petzeldunce’s head.
Gratefulcub
No, because us drama queen lefty communist will protect your civil liberties.
I am not talking about National ID cards, it is about everything else I have seen you defend. No confusion about what I am talking about this time is there?
Orogeny
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.
Damn those founding fathers! Why couldn’t they have written this one a bit more clearly. I think both sides can make a good case. I just choose to be on the side that says that a certain amount of gun control is not only acceptable but necessary.
Perry Como
This is a fundamental misunderstanding that infuriates me to no end. All rights belong to the People and are endowed by our Creator. The Constitution tells the Federal government what powers it has in relation to the rights of the People. Some rights of the People are enumerated, but just because a right isn’t listed doesn’t mean we don’t have it. Check the 9th Amendment for further clarification.
Gratefulcub
Well, what about:
Should the government be able to collect a database of our personal information, including fingerprints, DNA, bank records, and phone records?
Should the NSA be able to conduct surveillance on American citizens? Without a warrant or judicial oversight?
Should journalist be prosecuted for printing leaks of state secrets?
Should the president be allowed to declare an American citizen an enemy combatant and disappear him without charges or any legal recourse for the accused?
Orogeny
Gratefulcub:
Personal info, fingerprints- yes (they already do); No to the rest
NO!
Possibly, depending on the circumstances.
NO!
Perry Como
I’ll take Darrell’s side on this one. Those are two separate clauses. The comma between them is not an accident. And the next argument someone will bring up (“the people” refers to society as a whole) is bogus too. There is no other amendment in the Bill of Rights that refers to a collective right. All of the Amendments refer to the rights of individuals. The 2nd Amendment included.
Darrell
You lefties defended and excused communism, the most murderous ideology in modern history. I bring this up, because you’re trying again to pretend the left is historically more ‘right’, more noble. They’re not
Gratefulcub
Sorry everyone, I only posted that for the reaction it would receive from a certain somebody
Classic. Did you think that no one knew what the 2nd actually states? But you never play with context do you?
Katablog.com
You may think it’s impossible, but if you start cutting off all the free medical and education and close up the possibility of work for illegals it sure will have some running for the border in the right direction. Make it uncomfortable and there will be no reason to come and certainly no reason to stay.
Next, at the next “rally for illegals” show up with trucks and start hauling illegals to the border. What a slap in the face to have millions who illegally entered this country stand in front of us and demand amnesty, threaten us and sing our Star Spangle Banner in their new Spanish version.
D. Mason
I dunno, did she sneak across our borders and is she here illegally? Is she working through the use of forged documents? Does she refuse to learn English? Does she drive down wages for American workers? You see it’s not a simple issue of a silly flag, the flag is a symbol of a nation as well as refusal to assimilate or as some people call it – segregation. In other words does she use her flag to celebrate her membership in a group that spits on American laws and the American way of life? if so then yes she is as bad as the millions of criminal Mexicans that are invading our country.
Darrell
I wasnt’ playing with context, just as you falsely accused me of quoting you out of context above until I posted your verbatim quote in sequence. You’re big on making accusations until someone points out you really are full of it
RonB
Whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on. The idea of militia is long dead. The whole sentiment needs to be taken in, not an independent clause. Standing army is the norm, we have gotten quite far away from the idea of regulated militia quelling insurrections and defending frontiers against attacks from Indians. The second amendment is a bit on the crusty side and is probably in need of clarification if we truly assert that everyone has a right to arms- a right which at that time was in place to avoid a regular standing federal army doing the feared monarch’s business. Miles away from where we are now, international realities encroaching constantly upon us as they have.
It’s an interesting quandary that modern times places us in regarding guns and the second. I think there is no need to refer to the second when we talk about gun ownership.
As we spin off on this tangent…
Orogeny
Perry Como:
Doesn’t that interpretation mean that NO regulation of arms can be constitutional? Ownership of machine guns, grenade launchers, laser-based satellite weapons all must be constitutionally protected, since I’ve never seen “arms” defined to specifically mean only handguns, rifles and shotguns.
Gratefulcub
Darrell,
So you really believe that I support the communist regimes of the 20’s? Come on. Do you really think I base my thoughts on the writings of ‘the left’ of the 1920’s. Do you think I believe in Mao?
You lefties excused communism? Not in my lifetime, not me.
At the same time, you are confusing communism with Maoism, and Leninism, and Stalinism, and other isms.
If I say that I believe in universal healthcare, you will call it socialist, which is communist, which is stalinist, which involved terrorize the populace to maintain power.
Univerasl healthcare = killing Kirov to start the purge
Gratefulcub
Again, my apologies
crg
The 10th amendment does.
The big problem is that the 2nd amendment isn’t grammatically correct. You could maybe finesse it if there wasn’t that comma between “bear arms” and “shall not”.
RonB
We what? Huh? Us? These “lefties” here? I think you’re letting this lefty label run a little wild.
Darrell
Russia under Lenin was communist. Russia under Stalin was communist. China under Mao was communist. Look it up and get back to us when you’re done making excuses, claiming it really wasn’t ‘true’ communism.
Gratefulcub
Didn’t you see Reds? That’s proof.
D. Mason
Yeah you gotta make sure to dismiss the second amendment before you can talk about the right to bear arms. Makes perfect sense.
Normally I swing to the left or right depending on what issue, so I find myself agreeing with all kinds of different people on this blog, but Jesus tittyfucking Christ what’s going on that someone besides darrell will flipantly dismiss constitutional rights? The People have a right to bear arms BECAUSE the founders were distrustful of powerful governments AND standing armies, both of which are firmly in place right now. I can’t think of a more important time to look at the context of the second amendment and reflect on it’s original meaning.
RonB
I dunno, sure looks like a punctuation clusterfuck to me. Far too easy to use a period to convey separate ideas. I’m pretty sure the Federalist Papers will bear this out but Im not near my copy. I’ll see if I can cough it up with a search.
Gratefulcub
this is not a defense of communism, but none of those situations had much to do with communism. I am not a communist, I don’t hold communist ideology.
The point is that the victims of communism were not the victims of communism. They were victims of Lenin, Stalin, and Mao.
Each state was a dictatorship. The purges, the surveillance, the oppression……it was all a result of dictators retaining power.
They did so under the guise of ‘communism’ just as the Iranians and Saudis use the guise of ‘islam’.
Socialism is an economic model, it isn’t evil. It doesn’t work all that well, but the evil comes from the peole implementing it as they try to hold onto power.
Joey
Comparing the “left” to muderous regimes is borderline stupid. While economically, those regimes were “left”, they were all totalitarian. Economic policy and political policy (ie, how much power a government has) are two different things. A regime can be capitalist, yet totalitarian in regards to personal freedoms. A regime can socialist or communist, yet not be totalitarian. Bringing up Mao, Stalin, Lenin, etc. isn’t an indictment of the left. It’s an indictment of totalitarianism. We really need to start using the political compass more. Up and down refer to how people feel about political freedom and state control. Left and right refer to economic beliefs. It’s a much better, and more clear sytem than simply referring to the left and right.
Perry Como
Actually, I don’t know that I have a logically consistent answer for that. The guys that wrote the Constitution had a healthy distrust of government. They knew that an armed populace was the best way to stop an oppressive government. The 2nd had as much to do with defending foreign threats as it did with defending against an oppressive government.
While I think the idea of allowing an individual to own a nuclear warhead is incredibly stupid, I don’t really see a problem with a person owning a machine gun. Personally I’d like to own GAU-17. Those full auto shoots look like a blast ;)
I think there is a balance that can be reached between the rights of the individual versus the interests of society, much like the limitation on the 1st Amendment where a person doesn’t have the right to yell “Fire!” in a crowded theater.
But as Darrell said, Federal firearm registries have been used in the past to confiscate the weapons of citizens. It happened in the US 8 months ago when LEOs in New Orleans were confiscating the legally registered weapons of residents after Katrina. Give them an inch, they’ll take a mile…
JoeTx
I’ll clue you into a little secret… Darrell starts cussin’ and labeling people when he is losing an argument, which pretty much happened out of the gate today on this thread!
Joey
Ah, gratefulclub beat me to it.
Joey
I mean gratefulcub. Sorry grateful.
Darrell
Has there ever been 1 communist regime which wasn’t murderous and oppressive?
Communism requires the suppression of the basic human desire to do better for oneself and one’s family. That desire cannot be held back without oppression. But don’t dare blame communism the ideology for that, right?
And the left throughout the cold war, defended, excused, and in some cases even glorified communism
Gratefulcub
That’s Cubbie to you.
After losing 12 of 13 I ain’t feelin so goddamn grateful.
Perry Como
crg Says:
It’s still a reference to “the people” as in “all of these individuals”.
Are there any other places in the Constitution that an error was made? Or just in the 2nd Amendment?
demimondian
Ron B, D. Mason…hey, guys, welcome to the left. Sit down, make yourself comfortable.
We’re planning a new war on christmas (no capitals for us!). You in?
JoeTx
Taking Darrells argument further, we can now say Democracy under George Bush is an oppressive idealogy, that steals from the governed and gives to the governors and friends of said governors, starts preemptive wars, etc. etc. etc.
RonB
I think I did upthread-it doesn’t really have diddly to do with your ability to overthrow the government by armed force, something which is fucking impossible at this point in time anyway so it’s hardly worth discussing. The amendment speaks to a system of defense that is outmoded. If you wanna go thinking you can be Daniel Shays with your little rifles and handguns, the army won’t bring a knife and there won’t be a goddamn thing you can do about it. Thanks, but I think I’ll try the right to peaceably assemble and speak before I go charging at the infantry.
Gratefulcub
Bullshit.
Some people from the left defended communism and Stalin and Mao. SOME PEOPLE FROM THE LEFT. SOME. A FEW. THEY EXISTED, BUT IT WASN’T THE GOD DAMNED LEFT. IT WAS A MINORITY OF THE LEFT.
Obviosly you don’t believe in a woman’s right to contraception because THE RIGHT doesn’t believe in it.
I can’t believe you support murdering abortion providers.
I can’t believe you support legislation to prevent the races from intermarrying, just like THE RIGHT did at the turn of the century while I was defending Lenin.
Perry Como
I keep hearing people say things like this, but have you looked at Iraq lately? The world’s most powerful military can’t seem to control a 3rd world nation. I’m not advocating the overthrow of government, I’m just saying all options should be on the table.
Gratefulcub
What argument?
The one where anyone that disagrees with his worldview supports the starvation of the ukrainians under Staling.
Or the one where all gay men want to molest young boys.
Please, don’t take any of his arguments any further, for the love of God……
Pooh
If we look just above, we see this
Of course very few (and even fewer credible authorities) take an absolutist position with regards to any of those enumerated rated rights – we have, for example, Time, Place and Manner restrictions on speech. And I think we are all fine with that (the degree of fineness is relative I suppose, McCain-Feingold, etc…)
It always strikes me as odd that the same people who take absolutist positions re: 2nd Amend tend to be much more flexible with #’s 1, 4, 5, 6, and 14. But that’s just me.
Steve
Comparing Bush to Hitler is crazy moonbat stuff… but blaming “you lefties” for excusing Communism is part of a normal, rational argument.
Darrell, self-appointed leader of the Overblown Rhetoric Police, lets out with “you lefties defended and excused Communism”? Nice. May I just add, “you righties” didn’t even want to fight Hitler!
Gratefulcub
allende wasn’t so bad. Pinochet was. I guess it was Pinochet’s free market pro-US mentality that was to blame.
Free market believers = murderous thugs
Darrell
The hell it was. It was MOST of the left which defended, excused, and sometimes glorified communism during the cold war. One of the most famous leftist economists of that era recently died, John Kenneth Galbraith.. who as recently as the mid 1980’s after having just visited the soviet union, was making excuses for the communists, talking about how well they were doing, at a time when there were severe food shortages and people there were starving to death.
Gratefulcub
Pooh,
Stop making a point. Didn’t you hear, you don’t do that.
Gratefulcub
How big is this LEFT you are speaking of? 45% of the country?
Perry Como
Why does the 3rd never get any love? Can I get a w00t w00t for the 3rd Amendment anyone?
Gratefulcub
Woot Woot
RonB
I’ll have to respectfully disagree, I just can’t seem to recall this popping up as a reason for the second in any constitutional pamphlet, which is pretty much where I go for all original intent related to the constitution. Federalist 29 pretty much lays out that the reason for the militia idea- that no large force like a national army could come against the citizenry. But nowhere does it say that said militias could overthrow the government and therefore a reason for everyone to have a weapon.
Insurrections were part of the very reason that the Confederacy was dissolved-why would the Federalists encourage or enshrine that same behavior?
D. Mason
Well I guess since we’re already licked we may aswell bend down and start kissing some asses huh? Maybe it would make me personally feel better to know that moments before they pumped me full of rounds from a M-16 I managed to put a bullet in one of them. Is that ok with you? That’s the point of the second amendment, it’s not just the right to own a gun, it’s the right to fight back, if you so choose, even against staggering odds. Kind of like when we beat the British through shenanigans and moxy. Maybe it’s stupid but since I watched a despot rise to power in ’00 and have watched the results for 5 years I will not go tossing away my ability to shoot one of them in the face if they try to abuse their power against me.
All of you can think whatever you will of me. I don’t believe in poopooing my own rights, especially when it is just to make some fringe left wack job feel better.
Darrell
Under Allende there were severe food shortages (look up the women banging pots marches), 500%+ inflation.. Allende sent his thugs to forcibly take (steal) private factories and ranches… But things weren’t “so bad”, right? Of course, a socialist paradise
Steve
I considered writing my law review note on the Third Amendment, but those law review people have no sense of humor.
Since I’m all about bipartisan compromise, let me just point out: if you want to have a universal health care system, you’re probably going to want a national ID card to go with it! Come on, let’s all get along.
RonB
Id like to re-remind everyone that GratefulCub has caused whatever resultant dustups between similarly politically aligned people that transpires forthwith.
:)
Gratefulcub
Darrell,
How is that fight against contraceptives coming?
chopper
And the left throughout the cold war, defended, excused, and in some cases even glorified communism
and apparently you were high on some really good sh1t through the whole thing. man, you and your broad brush. i’ll bet you have mccarthy’s picture in your wallet, don’t you.
RonB
Join the Easter Bunny’s militia. Best chances we’ve got against that fat fuck.
Perry Como
Militias were one reason for the 2nd Amendment. The other was to have an armed populace. We’re back to the “mistaken” comma in the 2nd.
“That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government”
Gratefulcub
Again, my most sincere apologies.
On another note, I am a big fan of Center Face. Quality over quantity.
Unlike my posting 30% of this thread all because I am not as strong as Pooh.
RonB
Al Maviva was doing this in the ABC/NSA thread, establishing some sort of political heritage from the radical left of the 40s to todays progressives.
Darrell
You bring up Allende, then when confronted with facts of his miserable rule, you change the subject. How honest of you.
Gratefulcub
the founding fathers had no idea what 2006 would be like. do we really need to know what their thoughts were on gun control. I mean, “You can’t expect a man to wear a boy’s clothes.”
Perry Como
btw Ron, check Federalist #46:
Gratefulcub
Fine. I threw out Allende because it was better than Pinochet’s free market. Allende wasn’t a dictator. Abuses occured, just like they do in any 3rd world nation. He was no saint. Pinochet was worse. Just saying that communism wasn’t the problem, as Pinochet proved.
Anyway, how is that fight against contraception and women having jobs?
RonB
They have much better stashes of C4 than we do, but point taken.
Darrell
“Better” in what sense? Since you bring up free markets, presumably you are unaware that Allende had driven the economy into the ground by any metric, and Pinochet (brutal thug that he was) resurrected it significantly.
Given the disastrous state of the economy in Chile under Allende’s communism, how do justify your position that “communism wasn’t the problem”? You don’t have a clue, do you?
RonB
(further illustrating my point that some amendments are pretty much banished to antiquity)I mean, woot woot!
Pooh
Indeed. I personally think some form of national ID is a Good Thing in any event (SSN’s are used for way too many purposes to be truely useful as an identifier) – when we start adding in biometrics and databases, well then certain bells and/or whistles start to go off. I’m not per se opposed on those grounds, but it’s something that needs to be fully thought through.
demimondian
Hey, lawyers…what *does* the 3rd say?
John S.
Well, placed in that context, Bush is doing a heckuva job.
RonB
This does not specify that this has to be done with bullets. If we have to solve it with bullets, how truly fucked are we that we have no recourse but this? I’m not exactly sure its gotten that bad.
“They got the guns, but we got the numbers”-The Doors
RonB
Thanks, Cubbie, I’ve got miles to go but far far from where you found me.
ppGaz
Unless you can produce the posts in which I either “defended” or “supported” communism, you have once again stuck your foot into your mouth up to the kneecap.
Do you even care any more, Darrell? Are you so out of touch that you’ll just post any horseshit now and never mind what the facts are?
Your presence on this thread now is based on your opposition to “the left” because it supported communism?
Are ya just out to turn yourself into a spoof at this point? The maniacs at Scrutator make more sense than you do at this point.
Pooh
Demi, 3rd amendment is the one about quartering soldiers. Pretty relevant today, huh?
The Easter Bunny
I’m glad someone here knows where the real threat is. I don’t care if you’re a Godless commie, a gun nut, or a nanny-tit-sucker like Darrell: the Easter Army needs you.
You’ll get three squares a day, a cot, your own set of bunny ears, and all the Peeps you can eat.
Peeps, bitches!
RonB
And Jefferson warned exactly that. Our constitution should have more strike marks and edits in it than a high school term paper.
ppGaz
Well, I think that’s basically why the British drew a squiggly line around Mesopotamia, called it Iraq, and said, we’re done, take your stupid squabbles and run your stupid country into the ground, we quit.
Nothing has really changed since, has it?
D. Mason
I believe the point was that it also didn’t rule out bullets. It’s open ended, I believe to state that any means is acceptable when the need is dire enough.
demimondian
Uh, yeah. Let’s have a W0ot Wo0t for the Third Amendment…
Hey, does the Easter Bunny Militia have to compensate me when it quarters rabbits in my house? If so, can I have some of the meat in lieu of peeps?
RonB
I think all us Constitutional Skollers took all the attention away from him and he’d like it back, thank you.
ppGaz
Fight back as a well regulated militia, wouldn’t you say? Not as a wild-eyed maniac shooting out the front door of his cabin.
And this right to “fight back” isn’t defined. Against whom, and to what extent? To take over the government, or to stop the government at the gates?
For example, could the people of Colorado City, AZ, so intent on preserving their bigamist lifestyle, throw up a militia and stop the government from coming in and prosecuting the bigamists for child abuse?
Why or why not?
Tim F.
There’s a composition fallacy, followed by a division fallacy, that should go down in the record books. Well done, chum.
The Easter Bunny
You cut on any of my boys and you’re gonna have a lucky foot so far up your ass, you’ll be tasting Easter grass. It’s an honor and a privilege to quarter my brave lads, punk, and don’t forget it. You’ll be thanking me come December 25th, when yours is the only house on the block that doesn’t have a yard full of reindeer shit.
RonB
Look, Private Demi-whatever your damn name is, son, you’ll eat the fuckin’ PREs(Peeps Ready To Eat)you’re given, and you’re gonna show us how much you like ’em by smilin’ at us through that yellow marshmallow wad!
Perry Como
RonB Says:
Agreed that things would have to be truly fucked for it to get that bad. We are a long way off from that too. But when all else fails, it should be an option.
Pooh says:
For us, not so much. For people in the USSR in the 80s, yeah, it would have been relevant. I used to work with a guy that grew up in the 80s in the Ukraine(?). He told stories about how his family had to provide room and board for Soviet soldiers on their way to and from Afghanistan. No choice in the matter, had to do it.
demimondian
Yes, Sergeant. I’m all over these PREs, sir…I mean, Sergeant. It’s just that the quartered bunnies make such a mess, and the leavings…disgusting.
The Other Steve
Link please.
I rather doubt it. In his latter years, Galbraith pointed out that the failures of Communism could also apply to Capitalism. He argued that large Corporations in effect create a planned economy, and that we need smaller companies to truly have a market economy.
Me thinks you’ve fallen into the classic right-wing claptrap. That is, because Galbraith attacked some of your preconceived notions of how things work, you have decided to think that he was a communist sympathizer.
Again, I repeat. The Republican party has never stood for Capitalism in the Free Market sense.
The Other Steve
Link please.
I rather doubt it. In his latter years, Galbraith pointed out that the failures of Communism could also apply to Capitalism. He argued that large Corporations in effect create a planned economy, and that we need smaller companies to truly have a market economy.
Me thinks you’ve fallen into the classic right-wing claptrap. That is, because Galbraith attacked some of your preconceived notions of how things work, you have decided to think that he was a communist sympathizer.
Again, I repeat. The Republican party has never stood for Capitalism in the Free Market sense.
cannukian
DougJ Says:
I just got back from Starbucks and people were throwing around the v-word and the s-word like it was nothing. What is the world coming to?
^^^ been away a few months … has dougj been outed as a libral?
JWeidner
Darrell,
After reading through the many posts on this topic (and others), I am genuinely curious. Where is “the line” for you when it comes to government, specifically government information control?
In other words, at what point (if any) do you stand up and say, “That’s it, NOW the government wants too much of my personal/private information”?
RonB
Yeah, but they’ve got the whole thing locked down.
TIA. We can organize, but a shooting match is pointless. All this hotshot talk about armed insurrection is kinda headin towards Timothy McVeigh land, don’t you think?
Darrell
Steve, only a small minority of big businesses hire illegals.. at least to any significant extent.
The immigration issue may divide the base, but that portion of the Repub base which defends the hiring of illegals, needs to be divided out of the party. This is a big issue, and they’re on the wrong side of it, morally and politically
D. Mason
They could try, and if enough people agreed with them they could succede. That’s called tyranny of the majority of course but tyranny of the majority might be preferable in some cases to tyranny of the elite minority so take that term for whatever you will. I love how you try to insinuate that my stance is somehow supportive of child molestation, very darrellish of you. As for the bigamy I couldn’t possibly care any less how many women, men, or cattle those people marry. People have a right to defend themselves from tyranny of any sort and I believe that’s the spirit behind the second ammendment. If you would toss that out then you may aswell sell yourself into slavery. That’s my point and you can intentionally miss it however much you like and I will still not give a fuck.
Hey Tim F. since you’re clearly paying attention could you let my 3:25 comment out of moderation? Not that anyone will bother to read it now but still, would be nice.
Darrell
I’ll answer, and I’d like you to do the same. That is, do you think it’s “over the line” for the govt to require a photo driver’s license, for example?
As at least two others on this thread have pointed out, the info we’ve discussed on a National ID card: name, address, ss #, fingerprint data, photo.. This doesn’t strike me as unreasonable. In fact, I think it would go a long way to prevent ID fraud, a real problem.
Now where do you draw the line?
Tim F.
More like skimming on the way from emergency 1 to emergency 2. If you want to avoid comment purgatory, keep in mind that three or more links in a post automatically get held for approval.
RonB
You’ll be singing a different tune when you have to wait three hours at the Department of Identity to change your address.
D. Mason
Darrell, you said you would answer the question, but your answer was only about where you will not draw the line. No mention of where you WILL draw it. Just sayin.
D. Mason
Tim, np but sometimes when refuting darrels bullshit it just takes more than three ya know.
Perry Como
Well, TIA was formally scuttled, but all the bits were just moved around under the cover of night. The apprehension towards the programs in TIA came from both sides, and rightly so.
Er, I think the tangent has gotten too far off the original point. No one is calling for armed insurrection. The original context was “at what point has the government gone too far?” Then it spiraled out of control, as often happens, when the 2nd Amendment is brought up.
It seems some self-described conservatives find firearms to be sacrosanct. Something like a Federal firearms registry is prone to abuse, and indeed has been abused in the recent past. Yet those same “conservatives” have no problem with massive data collection efforts and biometric databases by the same Federal government they fear will take their guns.
And I’m considered “irrational”…
The Other Steve
I don’t get this. How could anyone fucking defend Pinochet?
There wasn’t much of a difference between Pinochet and Stalin, except perhaps in the enormity of their crimes.
Operation Condor and our support for Pinochet are a big fucking reason why we have such a problem with anti-American attitudes in South America.
Darrell
More so then changing address on your driver’s license and voter’s registration now? you may be right on the hassle factor, but I still say such info on an ID is nothing to get so worked up about.
My biggest concern is the need to have a system which instantaneously (or near-instantanous) validates the authenticity of Social security numbers, and use that system to crack down on employers of illegal aliens using fraudulent SS #’s. The system we have now ain’t working
RonB
Like Pooh said, we have our pet amendments.
And the 3rd.
The Other Steve
Yeah, I’m all for that.
But recent articles pointing out that most illegals don’t work for companies, but rather do independent service work. i.e. lawn care, house cleaning, repairs, etc.
I don’t see this happening.
As I’ve noted before, I know many in the Russian community. Quite a few do house cleaning and other odd jobs.
How many of them do you think report this as income on their taxes? I’ll give you a hint… Russians hate taxes more than Republicans.
RonB
Im just kidding, I haven’t got a horse in the ID debate. Aside from its general creepiness, it does have the advantage of making my wallet slimmer…
I bet I know where you draw the line. Microchips.
The Other Steve
In all honesty, I’m not sure I have a big problem with national ID cards. I think we already use the SSN in that manner now.
Besides, it would create a lot of work for me. We’d have to retrofit all of our databases to implement the national ID code in replace of the SSN as the primary key.
RonB
Why does this make me feel like I’m being tagged like a fucking migratory animal?
ppGaz
No, you are doing the insinuating. I picked a grotesque example, because you are making a grotesque assertion.
My example simply puts your grotesque example in the proper light. The Constitution doesn’t say anything about “fighting back.” And if you are going to allow citizens to fight back, then you are going to have to defend some pretty shitty people out there who will want to “fight back” for reasons you don’t find attractive.
So, enforcement of the law is “tyranny?”
The Other Steve
We need a Da Vinci Code movie discussion. The right-wing is all up in arms over this movie.
JWeidner
I don’t think you’ve answered my question – that is, you haven’t provided any indication of an all-important boundary (to you personally). I think I gathered from your posts that you’re in favor of a national ID to help control immigration. I’m more curious to know where you go from that point.
It seems a small step from a national ID, to having that national ID become a de facto ID, passport, driver’s license, etc. Right now, to you, it’s a reasonable step to have a National ID in order to control immigration. Are you subsequently in favor of using that ID to control inner/interstate travel (driver’s license)? What about using that same ID to control intercontinental passage (passport)? In fact, I’m not interested at all on your position of a National ID. I’m more interested to know where you say “Stop” to the government.
As for me, personally, I’ll answer your question. I think we’ve already passed a point where I’m comfortable with the information that is out there and collected about me. I don’t really want to allow the government to collate all that info into a single ID because I don’t trust them to do the right things WITH that info. God knows that it’s a short step between a National ID for the purposes of controlling who gets a job and who doesn’t, to a National ID that controlls who gets to travel and who doesn’t, who gets a bank account and who doesn’t, who gets to drive a car and who doesn’t, etc. etc. etc. That is a profoundly uncomfortable thought to me.
As to your specific question
I absolutely think that’s over the line. States already require this to obtain driving privledges. Why should we turn that “gateway” over to the federal government? In fact, most state DMVs are already notoriously inefficient. Why would I want the federal government to take over? If one state can’t handle the responsibility efficiently, why would one government agency in charge of 50 states be able to do so?
Why on earth would you assume that a federally run database containing this information would be any more secure against hackers than any privately run data collection agency? Most companies that SHOULD be protecting your data already cannot do so. Credit Card companies, mortgage companies, credit rating agencies – all those and more have had publicly reported security issues where personally identifiable records were stolen by hackers. In fact, a federal database that placed all that information in one place is (IMO) simply too tempting to hackers to pass up. Our government can’t do much if some hacker in China decides to give the security of such a database a test.
Perhaps it is all an issue of trust. I don’t trust the government (whether it is run by Repubs or Dems) to do the right thing with my information. Maybe you do.
The Other Steve
In can be.
For what it’s worth, I used to be ambivalent about the 2nd amendment. After seeing Bush take office, and the actions and policies he has put in place, I am fully in support of it.
Darrell
If you read my posts, I believe I referred to him as a “ruthless thug”. That doesn’t change the fact that Allende had driven the economy into the ground.. and that things were much better (ecomomically) under Pinochet.
I don’t believe it’s accurate to say we “supported” operation Condor, or Pinochet to any significant extent, although you’re right that perceptions matter. Allende had run his country into the ground economically, undermined the judiciary with his own extra-constitutional parallel judiciary, and was using armed thugs to steal private factories and ranches. As for Operation Condor, it was made up of South American-only members, not the US
Allende was not thrown out of power by the US for his abuses, but by the Chilean Congress, backed by the Chilean supreme court and the Chilean people. Declassified CIA records show the CIA was surprised when Pinochet took power there
I don’t doubt that we turned a blind eye to the abuses of Pinochet or operation Condor at that time, but that was in the context of fighting aggressive Cuban and Soviet communism which was trying to expand iinto C. and South America at that time.
I’ve travelled a bit within S. America.. there is some anti-Americanism there, no doubt, but there’s also a lot of pro-Americans.
ppGaz
When it’s government by Democrats.
Fledermaus
When you get right down to brass tacks, I think Bush’s real failure here was not validating his dwindling supporters cartoonish thinking on the issue.
tBone
Nah, not a migratory animal. More like an eartag for cattle.
tBone
I can’t wait for the next time Darrell brings up the old “you lefties think Iraq was better off under Saddam” line . . .
demimondian
You private, or public? If you’re private, and if you use SSN’s as db keys, then you’re asking somebody to steal your db. Bad, bad.
If you’re public, and you aren’t the SSA, you’re just on the wrong side of the law…
SeesThroughIt
This post and all others pursuant to it combine to form one big ol’ PotD.
D. Mason
It also doesn’t say anything about a right to privacy but I believe anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together can read between the lines and figure that one out, just like common sense will dictate that the right to bear arms is atleast partly to defend yourself or as some might say “fight back”.
The answer to that disingenious question is not simple. It depends on what the law is, who is trying to enforce it and how, who made it and why. If the law in questions is “don’t murder people” then no, enforcement isn’t tyranny, but if the law is “don’t speak out against the presidents policies” then yeah enforcement is tyranny. Is that too complex? I hope not.
DougJ
If you read my posts, I believe I referred to him as a “ruthless thug”.
Coming from you, that’s probably compliment. Better a ruthless thug than a terrorist-coddling Democrat in your mind, I’m sure.
RonB
D. Mason, with you in spirit but your reading of the 2nd is extreme and not supported by its authors.
Perry Como
Funny you should mention that. Republicans are once again looking out for the little guy:
RonB
I think this is Mac Buckets’ stock in trade, whereupon he will proceed to hold up a poll taken from people who once voted 99.5% to keep Saddam president…
orogeny
In general, the government seems to do pretty well with data security…the IRS, SSA and others handle huge amounts of very sensitive data without any egregious breaches. I don’t know, maybe I’m just naive, but while I’ve got some real problems with the present regime, in general I have a fair amount of faith in the government. Bush and his minions are pushing the government in the direction of authoritarianism right now, but I believe that the pendulum is ready to start swinging back. The Dems are going to take the House and maybe the Senate and a lot of Bush’s programs are going to be rolled back.
RonB
ouch
DougJ
I’m getting out of here.
If you need me, I’ll be in my basement, with my guns, my National ID card, and my tapped phone, waiting for the terrorists.
Pooh
I think a better definition of tyranny is where those charged with enforcing the law are not subject to the law…le what c’est who?
jg
This is starting to look like a democrat issue put out there to make the republicans look like idiots. Oppostion politics?
D. Mason
Ron, what part of my reading is it that you disagree with? The reason I ask is because my reading is based on a fairly extensive understanding of the views of the “anti-federalists”. They were the folks who brought us the bill of rights by oposing the constitution based on it’s lack of enumerated rights. They had a pretty deep distrust of government and standing armies. Based on their exhaustive writings about the subject of God given rights I would say it’s safe to assume they would provide some mechanism for protection of those rights. The second amendment seems like a reasonable candidate for their attempt at doing just that.
RonB
Dammit, Doug, people are going to keep looking at me funny at the desk if I keep laughing like this.
Steve
In the last couple years, I’ve seen many of the private companies that use SSN’s as identifiers (such as mutual fund companies) change their practices, and of course the feds have long since put limits on what an SSN can be used for.
What could go wrong with a universal federal database? In the real world, we have problems like hackers, identity theft, lost ID cards, people with no hands who can’t be fingerprinted…
The more importance you place on a federal database, the greater the consequences of any error in that database will be. Is everyone who has opposed a national ID card, down through the years, just some kind of crazy privacy freak? These are real issues, and it’s quite a step to take just to try and solve the problem of illegal immigrants getting jobs with fake SSNs.
ppGaz
No, of course not. From you, it is always going to be too simple to be valid.
In the case of Colorado City, the people there believe that the government has no right to interfere with their reglious practice.
Should they form a militia, and fight back?
RonB
The reason I ask is because my reading is based on a fairly extensive understanding of the views of the “anti-federalists”.
The sequel is in the reading pile!
D. Mason
Well, honestly I don’t know enough about what happened there to answer that question. If their beliefs are important enough to them to fight for then yes they should form a militia and fight because in the end it doesn’t matter if you’re right or wrong – just whether or not you have conviction about your beliefs. Now if you’re asking me if I would join them then of course the answer is no. I don’t know what their beliefs are but since they’re religious I am sure I don’t share them. However, if someone were attacking my beliefs, no matter how abhorent they might be, then I should fight for them. If your personal beliefs aren’t worth fighting for then what is?
D. Mason
RonB if you liked the federalist papers you will LOVE the anti-federalist papers. Honestly. If you thought the federalists got worked up about freedom you will think the anti-federalists were freedom extremists.
ppGaz
So you are claiming that the 2nd Amendment gives “the right to fight back” to people who think that their “personal beliefs” are at odds with the government?
What exactly is the nature of that right? When has it been rightfully exercised? What common law or case law supports your view? Are citizens empowered by your “right” to take up arms against the government? Under what circumstances? To what extent? With what result? Does the government have the right to fight back? Where are these details spelled out in the literature?
Paul Wartenberg
Actually I would have snarked about him being a “toothless rug.”
Okay, got my snark out of the way. Now, is there any chance we can get back to the topics of immigration reform, fair wage increases and improvements to our school infrstructures? (hopeful grin)
Dave
Anyone that thinks this whole speech was anything more than Bush trying to raise his poll numbers is insane.
Immigration was supposed to be this year’s “gay marriage” however it’s backfiring in a bad way.
D. Mason
No, I’m saying that, among other things, the second amendment gives people the right to fight back against tyranny. It is up to each individual to decide when tyranny is present and when he should begin his battle. The individual is compelled to choose wisely by the dangers of making a wrong choice. It is my opinion that ones personal beliefs are important, for many reasons but mostly because if we don’t believe in anything then we are lost. So logically, when the government infringes on ones belifs that is a logical time to fight back. There are of course many mechanisms through which to fight back, the right to bear arms being one of them(hopefully the last resort).
As with all other enumerated rights the answer is somewhat vague.
The American Revolution, maybe you’ve heard of it?
I don’t get much into case law but as for common law, the cornerstone of common law, property ownership supports my view in every possible way. Afterall what is ownership without the ability to defend ones property?
Of course. Atleast according to the declaration of independance.
When a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism.
To whatever extent is necessary.
In order to properly answer that I would need to be a fortunr teller but I will simply say that revolutionaries ocasionally let the chips fall where they may.
Rights are for individuals not entities. Governments, like corporations, have no rights.
In what literature? They’re all over the place in the declaration of independance.
From now on maybe you can resist the urge to treat me as if I were Darrell. I’m not and I don’t appreciate your condescending bullshit.
demimondian
You’re joking, right?
The rest of us are, after all…
Perry Como
Key West seceeded at one point, but I don’t know if they formed a militia. Long live the Conch Republic!
Krista
I’m in. If I get promoted, can I upgrade to Cadbury Mini Eggs?
ppGaz
Uh, Mason, thanks for coming in. We’ll call you.
The government has no rights. Mmm mmm mmm.
So if any three of you out there want a nice white house to live in, just form a militia and take it … the folks in there now, on Pennsylvania Avenue, will let you in if you point your muskets at them.
Or something.
Seriously, Mason, the nuttiest fucking collection of dumbass assertions I think I have seen on the blogs in quite a while.
Your claim is that the 2nd Amendment gives citizens the right to “fight back” against the government, which, itself, “(has) no rights”.
Welp, sorry Tim and John, but if you are going to let crazy people post here, your blog just becomes another version of Scrutator.
Yeah, yeah, I know, you don’t control who posts here.
Heard it already.
D. Mason
yeah, there you go
DarrellppGaz, don’t refute any of my “dumbass assertions” just call me crazy and move along. Why not call me a racist too, just to you know, assert your leftiness?demimondian
So, Krista, which are you, Godless Commie, gun lover, or Darrell clone?
ppGaz
Well, I have no reason to right now, but if you give me one, I certainly will.
D. Mason
I thought the combination of you being a left wing extremist and me disagreeing with you was plenty of a reason. My bad.
capelza
Does a conga line count as a militia?
ppGaz
No problemo.
ppGaz
I did: They’re nuts.
The Constitution gives you no right to take up arms against the government. And if you do so, you will see the rightness of my view demonstrated rather dramatically. Bend over, and kiss your ass goodbye.
D. Mason
So you follow the assertion that might makes right?
demimondian
If you want independence, though, remember that Howard Dean was the Governor of a state which not only borders *Canada*, but was also independent of the rest of the United states for fourteen years. Surely I need not elaborate on the the numerological significance of Dean and fourteen, together, particular in the view of the significance of FOURTEEN to contitushunull skolars?
demimondian
Oh, fooey, DMason. There’s no right to insurrection; any claim to the contrary was demolished by the pursuit of the Civil War. The secessionist states were forcibly returned to the Union, and their rights were formally restricted until they acknowledged their subservience to the Federal power.
ppGaz
That’s for you to decide as you mount your assault on the government, and realize that you are about to perish. As you bend over to kiss your ass goodbye, write and tell us what you decided.
{ hint: take your Blackberry with you }
Sirkowski
Uh, no you don’t. You get paid under the table and that’s it.
ppGaz
Yes, in Margaritaville.
The Easter Bunny
This ain’t prep school, maggot. You’ll take what the Army gives and you’ll like it.
D Mason, you’re my kind of mammal. Join me and we will liberate this great nation from the tyranny of the Fat Red One. (If you have an elephant gun in your collection, bring it.)
D. Mason
ppgaz I see what your problem is. You are of the erroneous impression that I advocate armed insurection, nothing could be further from the truth. I simply acknowledge that everyone has a right to toss off the bonds of tyranny through any means necessary. Unfortunately sometimes, rarely, but sometimes, armed insurection is the only remaining recourse against opression. That’s an unfortunate fact of life. It’s also a right that peoples have asserted throughout history. Some might even say that human nature dictates that we will seek escape from opression instinctively and viciously. I just happen to think that’s how it should be.
You assume that government has some inherent right to rule over us as they see fit and I guess you hope they are benevolent. That’s sad becuase people who seek out power are rarely benevolent in their wielding of such.
You really should read up on the founding fathers, I believe you would be surprised at how radical they were. Maybe you think they were too radical, maybe you think they were crazy like I am. That is of course your right. But I honestly believe you would atleast find it entertaining.
D. Mason
Hmmmm peeps or christmas ham…. decisions decisions.
Perry Como
The Constitution gives no rights to the people. The right to rise up and form a government is a natural right:
Once you get that, you’ll get what D. Mason is saying.
hth
hand
CaseyL
The right to rebel is implicit in the Declaration of Independence. Also, the notion of “inalienable rights” carries its own implicit right to rebel against a government that consistently violates those inalienable rights.
The Constitution mandates other ways to correct nascent tyranny, and we’ve built an entire body of laws and mechanisms to force the government to redress grievances without resorting to armed rebellion.
But that every human being has the intrinsic right to rebel against tyranny is not only the foundation of our own revolution, it’s the foundation of all governing philosophy that doesn’t uphold the divine right of monarchs.
Now, the trick is that the right to revolt can’t be asserted until after it’s been successfully exerted. Which is a fancy way of saying that failed revolutions are insurrections, and failed rebels are traitors.
That doesn’t mean you have no right to try. It just means you’d better choose your battles, and your comrades, carefully.
Perry Como
btw, the Conch Republic won a war game against the US Army:
Fear the conga lines…
ppGaz
No, I am under the impression that you said that the 2nd Amendment provides the right to “fight back” against … something or other.
It doesn’t. Especially if you think you are going to “fight back” against the government.
I don’t really know what the hell you think you meant, but I am taking solace from knowing that you have no idea either.
Steve
I assume the Founding Fathers believed that the right to bear arms would help ensure that an actual rebellion would never be necessary.
Perry Como
More freedom loving from the nannystate Republicans:
D. Mason
Clearly.
Otto Man
Wait ’til the 82nd Chairborne hears about this proposal. They spend 24/7 on the internets, but it’s not all spent on wargasms.
Pb
“Snakes on a plane!” — Jon Stewart, 5/16/06
Tractarian
You presumably already have a SSN, right? Guess what, you’re already tagged.
This reactionary opposition to the REAL ID act is silly, IMO. The feds already have everyone’s SSNs, and the state governments already have the rest of your personal info. I suppose I would have a problem with RFID tags being put in the cards – too much room for mischief there. But I have no problem with making it more difficult for potential evildoers (wow, I feel like kicking my own ass for using that word) to counterfeit ID cards.
As for the guns, I think the 2nd speaks for itself. The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. That’s right – not only can’t the government hamper in any way your ability to own weapons, but they can’t even hamper in any way your ability to brandish those weapons. But that’s not all – we also need to be “well regulated.” So, to sum up – everyone can carry machine guns and RPGs wherever they please, but they all need to be registered and fitted with GPS devices and RFID tags so that the government can track your every move. Those founders sure were brilliant!
D. Mason
RFID or a comparable equivalent is part of the Real ID act, that’s why it’s so troublesome to most. Another problem is the cost – early estimates ranged from $100 million to $750 million Pennsylvania says they expect to spend $85 million. Is the juice really worth the squeeze?
t. jasper parnell
Feh and Meh.
The Nanny State gets a bad rep because it seeks to limit danger. The gradual expansion of state power gets a bad name because it seeks to limit personal choices and individuals’ control over themselves. The former offfers protection from crooks selling snake oil disguised as curatives, starvation because of booom and bust, and other realated misery; the latter seeks to grant the state the right to, you know, require papers, loyalty oaths and other associated whatnot. Of the two, I’ll take Mary POppins and tell the mother fuckers in leather coats to go jump in some sort of a lake. National ids are, I would argue, an example of the use of state power by a specific government to control citizens.
Republicans have for the longest time rejected the right of state to protect individuals from misery while inisting that both the state and this or that government has the right to limit personal liberty. President Bush represents the avatar of Republican hatred of personal freedom and its embrace of state power in the pursuit of the untrammeled power to restrict freedom, not the freedom to make a profit but rather the freedom to engage in behavior that Mrs. Grundy and her ilk find shockingly amoral.
Once you accept this division: liberals from Adam Smith to the present sought and seek to expand freedom of action and conservative seek to limit it, all arguments make sense. Darrel and his ilkery hate substantive freedom, the freedom God gave, so we are told, Adam and Eve, or is it Adam and Steve, my Greek fails me, to chose. But they accept formal freedom, the right to buy a S & W or a Sig-Sauer.
Whathisname, that british boyo oh god, positive and negative freedom, hedgehogs and foxes, you know some guy with a biblical first name and central European capital for a last, made this point any number of times and, whatismore, with footnotes.
yrs in generalized disgust
t. jasper parnell
positive and negative libety, meant I.
W.B. Reeves
I think Darrell has made it very clear where he draws the line on illigitimate State Power:
Elected left wing governments that nationalize industries and re-distribute land through expropriation = bad.
Rightwing dictatorships established by military coup that massacre their political opponents = not so bad.
Little wonder he approves the idea of national Id cards.
Ancient Purple
This is a gratuitous reminder that we need more prison shower scenes.
ppGaz
Again we talk about women’s prison shower scenes, but where are they?
How long must we wait?
W.B. Reeves
A brief aside on the 2nd Amendment. Opponents of gun control have been so certain of their interpretation of this Amendment that they’ve never troubled to test it in court. Wonder why?
canuckistani
We’re all Godless Commies up here.
ppGaz
I’m a godless gun lover, myself.
demimondian
Uhhh…because the precedents have already been established for some time?
Do I get a cookie?
Santa Claus
So the moonbats think they can form an army and take me down if they’re led by the Prime Peep-pooper himself, eh? Well, you’re not taking me down without a fight, you pansies! The Eskimos have tried for centuries, and my polar bear levies take them down before they get within 300 miles of my toy shop. The Canucks and the other anti-O’Reillyites have been at it for almost 3 years now, and the trenches at the frontline haven’t budged. You think you peepheads have what it takes to break the stalemate? You think a creeping barrage of Cadbury eggs and rabbit turds is going to break the seasoned ranks of hardened Elven conscripts? Has any of you fuckers even RENTED a Lord of the Rings movie? Those guys, the ones with the pointy ears? They’re my soldiers, suckers. I lent them to Peter Jackson so he could make the movies. That means Orlando Bloom is on my side too, bitches. And THAT means one of your own moonbat buddies, Johnny Depp, is an honorary auxiliary in Santa’s Holy Army of Polar Death.
Ho ho ho, bitches. Don’t sleep too tightly on December 25, because Legolas and Elrond and may sneak into your house with me to help me coal your asses.
And if THAT fails, I’m holing up in northern Montana with a shitload of guns and whiskey. Let’s see you Peep your way into my compound, Rabbit-riders!
Pooh
OT: but check this out re: PoliPundit meltdown:
Something tells me that John wielding his Red Pen of Profesorial Anger over these comments would make for an entertaining day…
Ancient Purple
God-worshiping, gun-toting, prison shower scene lover here.
Oh, and a traitor because I want President W to get kicked in the nuts.
Perry Como
When do we get to see women in a prison shower scene on their knees firing guns?
vetiver
ATTENTION, PLEASE! The armed-to-the-teeth constitutional scholars posting here have bloviated right past CaseyL’s cogent analysis of our de facto 2nd Amendment rights. I repost said analysis here, in lieu of a collective dope-slap.
Discuss.
ppGaz
That will come in handy on the day that the Declaration is held to be law.
Perry Como
CaseyL presented it much more succinctly than the bloviating masses that wander this board, and added the twist of “the winner writes history”, but it wasn’t ignored. Even this non-armed-to-the-teeth non-scholar thinks it’s a good summary.
D. Mason
It is a brilliant summary CaseyL, articulate and on the mark, bravo!
RonB
Weeeell, the Bill of Rights does, and for that reason was left out of the consitution until 1789, because Hamilton felt the big difference in the Constitution was that it was a document that gave rights to the government. The people already retained everything else, he argued.
Enumerating some of the more basic natural rights was a good idea on balance, its the basis for our value system but his point does stand that the Bill of Rights became yet another dispensation from our government, more a characteristic of a monarchy with a right to rule than a people with the inalienable right to govern and represent themselves.
The Other Steve
demi wrote:
Ever tried to pull credit?
The SSN is the only thing that uniquely identifies John Smith from John Smith. You can’t use address as people move. I suppose we could use your parents names, and their parents names… Go back to being John son of Sam son of Fred.
Like it or not, but our entire financial system in this country tracks you by your SSN. Banks, Mortgages, Credit Cards, everything.
The only way around it would be a different ID, aka the National ID.
W.B. Reeves
It is a brilliant summary CaseyL, articulate and on the mark, bravo!
Except, as ppgaz pointed out, he begins by citing the Declaration of Independence which has no legal standing. It seems a bit odd to try and argue a point of Constitutional Law by citing and extra-constitutional authority which, its profoundly stirring rhetoric not withstanding, is in fact no authority at all.
Now if you want to make the Declaration the touchstone of your political thinking well and good. However, if you do choose to do so, you should discard the arguments about the meaning of the 2nd Amendment. If you don’t accept the supremacy of the Constitution, the interpretation of particular Amendments is irrelevant.
One need only examine the founders’ reactions to Shay’s Rebellion and the Whiskey rebellion to gauge their true attitude towards the citizen’s right to rebel.
RonB
Cigar to the man right here. A few funny things happened on the way from 1776 to 1787 and the difference needs to be acknowledged.
Perry Como
RonB, I think we may be talking past each other at this point. According to the founding fathers, and the political philosophers they based our government on, a government never gives rights. The government can only take rights away. Some of the most important of those right were codified in the Bill of Rights, based on the time the constitution was written.
Personally, I like all ten of the original amendments to the constitution. Even the 3rd.
Le Tooth Faerie
Oooh, big talk from the sweaty fat man! “Coal your asses”? Sad. Pitiful. Sad and pitiful. You stole that off last season’s Pimp My Ride, you lame-ass ho-cake. And you’ll last in Montana for about three minutes, until you realize you’re 178 miles away from the nearest Dunkin Donuts Boston Kreme and start hauling your flanneled ass down the road to the nearest bus station. Unless “hole up in Montana” is some kinda code, in which case just keep it in your tackle box, okay?
And Cotton-Ass Peep-Pimp, you take your “three hots and a cot, peeps til you sleep” and beat it right up and down the avenue and see how many takers you get.
Here in the Gumberland Gap, we don’t hold with this socialismic one-day-a-year work schedule. We bring in the enamel 24/7/365. Lately it’s been a growth industry, what with all the sugary crap kids stuff in their slobbery gobs. Even better, the post-1979 contract relieves parents from the burden of carrying and disbursing under-the-pillow cash, in exchange for a reasonable transaction fee, adjustable to market rates. And access to their credit cards and bank accounts.
So bring it, sock-buckers. Bunnies, reindeers, elves, whatever — it’s a rag-tag workforce, hopped up on jelly beans and candy canes for one week out of the year, useless and indolent for the next 51.
We’re not only well-disciplined, we’re well-financed.
Fear us.
Perry Como
The Other Steve, SSN as a db key? Come on. As a data point to correlate information, sure. But hey, the SSN would never be used for that (as our grandparents were told).
The SSN is a perfect example of mission creep for anything the Federal government does.
Perry Como
History is written by the winner.
Andrew
I think the notions of legality and constitutionality are rather moot when you’re engaged in insurrection or war against the government.
CaseyL’s statement has as its basis the same fundamental moral principles that are expressed in the Declaration. These prinicples and rights exist regardless of the existence of the Constitution or the government or green cheese.
Paul Wartenberg
Cases before the Supreme Court involving the Second Amendment:
Presser v. Illinois (1886)
US v Cruikshank (1875)
United States v. Miller (1939): Miller is the Supreme Court’s fullest discussion of the Second Amendment.
The rulings in all three cases established that individual use of arms can be restricted, although Miller still left enough wriggle room about militias under the Second Amendment to let both the control nuts and the gun nuts to claim victory.
The Supreme Court has not allowed to hear a case related to the Second Amendment since Miller. All subsequent decisions have been resolved at the appellate level. The question shouldn’t be why gun control advocates haven’t challenged the Second Amendment recently (they continue to do so), the question should be why hasn’t the Supreme Court allowed any such cases to reach their level (why is the Court avoiding the issue)?
Krista
Godless mercenary for hire in the war between Santa and the Easter Bunny.
Krista
True. I used to work for one of the major credit reporting agencies, and had a startling number of cases where you’d have John Smith Jr. and John Smith Sr., living at the same address, and sometimes, with the same date of birth. I’d love to give a sound smack to any and all people who name their children after them. No easier way to royally screw up your credit file.
The Easter Bunny
Yeah, we’re real scared of your pointy-eared drama queens. What are they going to do, shower us with facial moisturizer and tips on avoiding split ends?
Here’s a little clue for you, fatass: we’re rodents. We can get in ANYWHERE, no matter how well defended. So sit there and trade body waxing tips with your elves; we’re coming for you, tubby. Your ground troops and air superiority mean nothing against our tunneling prowess. From beneath you, it devours, bitch.
One morning, someday soon, you will wake up next to a reindeer head. And then you will taste true fear.
The Easter Bunny
Look, babe: I already told you I was sorry about last time. I told you I couldn’t stay over, and you knew I had to work early the next morning. We still had a good time, didn’t we? I bet your neighbors think so.
If you’re needing some bunny-love, you know where my warren is. No need to pull out the crazy-French-chick-card in a public forum to get me to pay attention to you.
Amour fou, bitches!
BJ PC moment
*cough* The correct term is “Inuit” as in “The People” *cough*
demimondian
TOS — I didn’t say “don’t keep SSN’s”, I said “don’t use them as a key”. Best practices are to use a UUID as a key, and keep the UUID-to-SSN table in a separate instance.
VidaLoca
With regard to the discussion you all were having yesterday concerning identity cards, it will probably come as no surprise that they can’t get that right either:
(more, plus discussion, at Obsidian Wings if you’re interested).
demimondian
OK, let see. The Easter Bunny and the Tooth Faery were once…close. They’ve since had a falling out, but they form a natural bloc against Santa Clause and his effete minions. Santa’s fat and dumb, and TEB and TTF are underhanded and vile. Who to help, here? Hmmm…
Hey, Santa? You know, I’m not utterly committed to this war on christmas stuff.
In fact, you know what I want for Christmas? If you’d bring me that Gas Centrifuge plant we talked about…you know, the last time you had those “unexpected” problems with your network…maybe we could work something out.
The Other Steve
Ahh, well they aren’t a primary key as not everyone has one. But they are certainly used to query the data. That was my point.
The Easter Bunny
You know, lil’ Demi, on your next Easter egg hunt? I’d watch out for Improvised Easter Decorations, mofo. I’m just sayin’.
Jim Allen
February 9, 2005:
Bush budget scraps 9,790 border patrol agents
President uses law’s escape clause to drop funding for new homeland security force
The Other Steve
HOLY CRAP!
This Vox Day idiot is from Minnesota.
The freaking Nazi lover is probably the guy srv ran into at MSP using all those bad words.
demimondian
You know, TEB, I’m feeling this deeply.
(Hey, thanks for the Glowing Toyz for Growing Boys Gas Centrifuge, Santa! Playing with it has been, like, a total BLAST. It is the BOMB, man.)
TEB, I forgot to mention how nice it was to visit your warren last week. Sure is a nice neighborhood you live in. That’s an impressive bunker in your basement…pity it you couldn’t afford to have it hardened to a full two atmospheres overpressure.
Halffasthero
I really wish I didn’t know that. Now I am depressed.
Vox Day’s contention regarding moving that many people, however, glosses over one EXTREMELY UGLY fact: The Jews were packed like sardines with no regard to their safety or comfort. Shipped hundreds of miles. As often as not they died while being transported but the dead bodies were left in the train for the entire trip. Sometimes they were packed so tightly that they were still standing while dead before the doors were finally opened.
And, in the end, they were sent to these camps to be exterminated anyway.
That Vox Day would even try to make this comparison is a little more than frightening.
ppGaz
Okay, the Tooth Fairy was involved in a falling out?
Spoof is dead.
Andrew
Wow, thanks for clearing that up. I was under the impression that Auschwitz was more of a golfing resort and the Jews were just on vacation.
Santa Claus
Hey, fuck you, punk. I live in the Arctic. Do you have any idea how far away that is from the nearest Krispy Kreme? Where’s your ass headquartered anyway, some dentist’s office in Cleveland? Fucking puss.
I think we have a common enemy here, Choco-bunny. What do you say we team up and take his ass out? The Tooth Fairy’s a crazy motherfucker, there’s no two ways about it. Do you have any idea how many times that guy’s been shot? Well, you must have, since you’ve slept with him and all. But put that love triangle crap aside- he’s gunning for your job now, and your ass. We should join together, not fight over kids and candy!
As a gesture of good faith, I’ll even overlook this bullshit:
You think a gopher can beat an elf? That’s completely laughable. What are you going to do, keep feeding them Peeps until they’re too fat to fight you? But anyway, I’ll overlook that. We have common interests, and a common enemy. Think about it. You can’t stand against the tooth fairy alone, he mauls mouths for fun. The guy’s a fucking psychopath.
Demimondian: you want weapons labs, you’ve got weapons labs. I did things for Saddam in the 80s, I can pull some strings for you. This is Santa talking, baby!
Santa Claus
Sorry about that cough you have there. Maybe a good Christmas present for you would be a nice bucket of coal to help keep you warm next winter.
Santa Claus
Long live spoof!
Dada uber alles.
Halffasthero
I never suggested you didn’t know. As you had to have read, Germany’s “efficiency” was the point of my post. A little reading comprehension would go a long way towards being able to debate intelligently. No offense.
The Easter Bunny
Jesus wept. How many times do we have to go over this, Tons-a-Fun? That “fairy” you met online: NOT the Tooth Fairy. If there were teeth involved in there somewhere, well, that’s your own fault for not getting a No-Scrape guarantee before you dropped those tent-like red pants of yours.
This is at least the fifth time I’ve explained this to you. I think the lard in your ass must be seeping into your skull and putting pressure on your brain.
By the way, if you think I’m going to fall for that “we have a common enemy” thing again, you’re even dumber than I thought. I haven’t forgotten the Pumpkin Offensive from ’02, you traitorous tub of guts.
demimondian
Who said anything about weapons labs, Santa, baby? We don’t do weapons work here at Bohemian Paris central, just peaceful research to further our scientific knowledge. Of course, we’re always glad to share our results; knowledge disseminated is knowledge multiplied.
By the way, did you get the paper on fast-acting anti-levitation reagents for arcitc herbivores? TEB has been really interested in it. Do you have a problem with me passing it on to him?
Santa Claus
Okay, asshole. But when a crazy-man in a pink tutu with a plastic wand and a bag of money shows up in your warren and starts leaving money under your childrens’ heads, don’t come cryin’ to me. I’ll be fortifying my cabin in Montana, cornholing everything in sight. Or, I’ll be in my toyshop, cornholing everything in sight. Or my time share in Florida, corn- well, you get the idea.
As long as I still have the strength in my body to deliver toys, drink whiskey, sing the praises of the throne of England, and cornhole, nothing else matters; I am a ripe jolly old elf.
Santa Claus
Whatever floats your boat. I just drop the toys out, I don’t wait around to see if a kid loses an eye with them.
As long as I have a list of the carcinogenic ingredients in Peeps, nothing that hippity-hoppity hophead Hippie can really bother me too much.