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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Open Thread

Open Thread

by Tim F|  May 17, 200610:46 am| 500 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads

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A hundred things are keeping me away from the computer today.

Gary Farber passed on a warning about signing away your work for syndication too readily. It is always cool when a publication wants to run your stuff (note to major periodicals – my email address is at the upper right) but make sure that you don’t sign away your rights.

I wanted to write more about government monitoring of journalists’ phone records but time hasn’t yet permitted. In the meantime Kevin Drum has useful commentary here and here. To sum up, the FBI uses PATRIOT Act-enhanced National Security Letters to secretly collect the confidential records of basically anybody they feel like, without the need to seek a judge’s authorization. Targets don’t have to have anything to do with national security or terrorism (making the NSL acronym somewhat of a misnomer) and don’t have to be the actual target of an investigation. In other words if the FBI wants your records it can have them, without having to give any reason and independent of that annoying oversight stuff. Don’t you feel safer?

Bush defenders will triumphantly announce that the whole thing may be legal and therefore perfectly ok. How do I know? Call me psychic. Folks who do so will demonstrate once again that conservatism is long since dead and buried.

In other news, my crystal ball predicts that Ronald Ramon will make the Mountaineers look like a high-school squad.

Chat about whatever.

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Next Post: The Real Da Vinci Code »

Reader Interactions

500Comments

  1. 1.

    Mr Furious

    May 17, 2006 at 10:54 am

    Since nobody is going to wander by and enter the discussion at my place, how ’bout I bring it over here…

    —

    New White House mouthpiece Tony Snow had his first briefing yesterday. He was rolling along fine with the usual spin (ie: good polls matter, bad ones don’t) when Snow stepped in it…

    A reporter asked Snow about why the White House was reluctant to talk about the NSA’s phone-record database program. Snow said:

    SNOW: Having said that, I don’t want to hug the tar baby of trying to comment on the program, the alleged program, the existence of which I can neither confirm nor deny.

    Um, excuse me, Tony?

    We all know what Snow meant, and there was no racist intent or context going on there. But, you would think any seasoned journalist and TV personality would, in effect, have scrubbed that phrase from their vocabulary…

    Maybe Tony should consider having this play in the background during his briefings from now on if he’s going to be busting out the folklore…

    It might just be because I first heard the phrase tarbaby in its derogatory context, but I always find it jarring when I hear it used like this.

    It also makes me question the mindset of a person who would use the phrase. Clearly Snow is technically correct in his usage, but when experienced speakers like Snow choose to use a touchy phrase like that, there is a reason—even if subconscious—in my opinion. Especially when you consider he’s fresh from FOX.

    This usage strikes me as a deliberate use of a politically incorrect phrase in a situation where the speaker can then defend himself for being correct, innocent, and beyond reproach, while accusing his attackers of being “overly politically correct.” It’s not really about race, it’s about scoring points on “sensitive” liberals and others that will be tweaked by this. Limbaugh has made a nice living doing exactly this.

    Unless you are telling the story of Brer Rabbit, one should avoid “hugging the tar baby” of hugging the tar baby, but no tough FOX manly-man is going to follow those rules… Can’t you just picture Hannity or O’Reilly getting all indignant and try to project over something like this? “I used the term correctly. Maybe you have a problem and that’s why you heard it a different way…”

    Problem is, Snow doesn’t work at FOX anymore.

    Good. His blood is already in the water as far as I’m concerned…

    [h/t The Carpetbagger Report]

    UPDATE: It hasn’t been that long since a much less-public figure than the White House Spokesman used this phrase and had to apologize for it [link]. How ’bout it Brer Tony?

    Hmm. I like that. From now on, I think I’ll refer to Snow as Brer Tony, and maybe throw that old timey fiddle in as a hotlink too…

  2. 2.

    Mr Furious

    May 17, 2006 at 10:56 am

    What’s with the “awaiting moderation?”

  3. 3.

    Tim F.

    May 17, 2006 at 10:59 am

    As always, three or more links in a comment automatically kicks it into the moderation queue. It may be annoying but I’ve seen blogs with weaker antispam measures (Kevin Drum comes to mind) and overall it’s a major plus.

  4. 4.

    Tird Hand

    May 17, 2006 at 10:59 am

    Sign up for one of the license agreements. Mine allows limited circulation.

  5. 5.

    Mr Furious

    May 17, 2006 at 11:03 am

    Ahh. Just wondering…

    Anyway. Not trying to make a mountain out of this Snow story, just thought it was interesting. Anybody else?

  6. 6.

    Gold Star for Robot Boy

    May 17, 2006 at 11:04 am

    That Farber link is 404.

  7. 7.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 11:05 am

    I went to see Mission Impossible III last night. Actually probably the best of the three. Although I gotta say the Tom Cruise, Katie Holmes lovey dovey stuff was kind of sickening.

    I have yet to see Thank You for Smoking. I might go to that tonight.(I’m in a movie watching mood)

    I bought Munich on DVD last week when it came out. Saw that in the theatres, but thought it was damn good.

    I’m looking forward to the Davinci Code.

  8. 8.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 11:06 am

    Don’t you feel safer?

    No.

  9. 9.

    Punchy

    May 17, 2006 at 11:07 am

    In other news, my crystal ball predicts that Ronald Ramon will make the Mountaineers look like a high-school squad.

    Can you throw us a frickin’ bone? I’m assuming this is some QB from an ACC team that is going to destroy a Vick-less West Virginia Meth-aneers team, but some clarification would be nice. Gracious

  10. 10.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 11:07 am

    Not trying to make a mountain out of this Snow story

    I am glad that Snow reads Uncle Remus.

  11. 11.

    Gratefulcub

    May 17, 2006 at 11:08 am

    Mr. Furious,

    I can’t disagree with you more. I understand that the phrase has racial undertones, but only because I was told that it does.

    I don’t believe it was some sort of code to Bush’s racist base, I think it was said innocently.

    This administration has so many legitimate problems that we don’t have to create new ones.

    IMO, Tony Snow will get into trouble by being too good at what he does. He is very witty and funny. In the frustration of that position, some of that wit will come across as abrasive and disrespectful. I can’t wait.

  12. 12.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 11:09 am

    Mr. Furious – I saw the bullshit when it happened in Minnesota. Everybody with any intellect knows that the phrase “Tar Baby” refers to an object in the Brer Rabbit stories by Uncle Remus. To suggest it has any racial overtones only shows you’ve got way too much fucking time on your hands and ought to get a fucking job.

    Your criticism is uncalled for, petty and stupid.

    I hope I made myself clear.

  13. 13.

    Faux News

    May 17, 2006 at 11:10 am

    No.

    ppGaz: We have just called Tony Snow. He is going to call you and ask you “why you hate freedom and love terrorism?”.

    Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

    Signed,

    Jeff Gannon
    Faux News

  14. 14.

    NeoDude

    May 17, 2006 at 11:11 am

    Redstate defends slavery!:
    http://www.redstate.com/story/2006/5/17/81241/1399

    What is up with that!

  15. 15.

    Gratefulcub

    May 17, 2006 at 11:12 am

    Punchy,

    Va Tech: Vickless
    West Virginia Mountaineers never had a Vick

    I am assuming that Tim is boasting about some QB at Pitt. Best of luck with that Tim.

    The Big East belongs to the Cardinals this year. Brohm will be healthy, the wide recievers are as good as any squad in the country, and we have the best Bush still in school. Defense will be improved due to more experience.

    most importantly, the overconfidence is gone. Everyone was talking undefeated last year before spring practice and the team bought into their own hype.

    We welcome the ‘Eers to town.

  16. 16.

    Tom

    May 17, 2006 at 11:12 am

    I am glad that Snow reads Uncle Remus.

    or Toni Morrison

  17. 17.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 11:13 am

    Steve, sorry, I already had dibs on the Uncle Remus connection.

    However, I think that the Amos N Andy card is still available for playing.

  18. 18.

    Mr Furious

    May 17, 2006 at 11:14 am

    I know Snow wasn’t being racist, and I don’t even think it was a wink to the base, I just wonder what the motivation is for someone to use that phrase from a podium in the White House.

    Poor choice of words, pure and simple. No calls for his ass from me, I don;t think he needs to address the comment or necessarily even apologize for it. I’m just making an observation about the mindset of a person who would use the phrase.

    It certianly shouldn’ overshadow the actual topic to which he was speaking.

  19. 19.

    Mr Furious

    May 17, 2006 at 11:16 am

    How about this then?

    A prominent Republican on Capitol Hill has prepared legislation that would rewrite Internet privacy rules by requiring that logs of Americans’ online activities be stored….

    The proposal comes just weeks after Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said Internet service providers should retain records of user activities for a “reasonable amount of time,” a move that represented a dramatic shift in the Bush administration’s views on privacy. The legislation would create a federal felony targeted at bloggers, search engines, e-mail service providers and many other Web sites that might “facilitate” access to unlawful pornography.

    Wisconsin Rep. F. James Sensenbrenner, the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, is proposing that ISPs be required to record information about Americans’ online activities so that police can more easily “conduct criminal investigations.”

  20. 20.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 11:16 am

    ppGaz: We have just called Tony Snow. He is going to call you and ask you “why you hate freedom and love terrorism?”.

    Well, I have an answer. 911 changed everything.

    In my case, it made me realize that terrorism wasn’t nearly as scary as an American government run amok.

    Now we know. Thanks, Tony, for asking!

  21. 21.

    Gratefulcub

    May 17, 2006 at 11:17 am

    I’m just making an observation about the mindset of a person who would use the phrase.

    I’ve used the phrase before. Maybe during the runup to war, “Don’t punch the F#@$ing Tar Baby you dumbass SOB”

    Does that say something about my racist mindset?

  22. 22.

    demimondian

    May 17, 2006 at 11:19 am

    Yah, Mr. F — that bugs me. Not only is it a clearly unconstitutional requirement, it’s totally impractical. In an IPv6 world, the packets are going to be encrypted, for Heaven’s sake! (Not to mention that there’s a whole indutry of zero-knowledge proxies out there aimed at defeating this kind of nonsense.)

  23. 23.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 11:21 am

    I know Snow wasn’t being racist, and I don’t even think it was a wink to the base, I just wonder what the motivation is for someone to use that phrase from a podium in the White House.

    “Tar Baby” is very common and part of American culture. Just like the phrase “Being thrown in the briar patch”.

    Poor choice of words, pure and simple.

    Nope. He was 100% correct in the usage of the phrase.

    The idiots here are the ones trying to claim there is some racial meaning.

  24. 24.

    Gratefulcub

    May 17, 2006 at 11:21 am

    Why does the internet scare them so much? Is it because it is the one place that speech really is free? It is unregulated speech that can go out to the masses. That is scarier than JJs nipple.

  25. 25.

    Punchy

    May 17, 2006 at 11:21 am

    Va Tech: Vickless
    West Virginia Mountaineers never had a Vick

    I stand corrected. Knew VaTech was in Blacksburg…had a mental lapse. WVU has the outstanding running game…whooped up on their bowl opponent being a 7 point dog…That would make this Ramon guy a Big East guy. And if he’s at Pitt…well, good luck. Aside from Marino and Fitz, the quality of ballers from Pitt has been questionable…

    Speaking of…how DOES Louisville end up with so many fat white ball chuckers? Is it a Big Mac for every completion?

  26. 26.

    Buck

    May 17, 2006 at 11:24 am

    Ronald Ramon

    Class: Sophomore

    Hometown: Bronx, N.Y.

    High School: All Hallows H.S.

    Height 6-1 / Weight: 180
    Position: Guard (Basketball) / Pittsburgh Panthers

    Thank God for google.

    I miss football too.

  27. 27.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 11:25 am

    The proposal comes just weeks after Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said Internet service providers should retain records of user activities for a “reasonable amount of time,” a move that represented a dramatic shift in the Bush administration’s views on privacy.

    Internet service providers don’t retain records of user activities at all. The only thing an ISP tracks is bandwidth usage. Unless your on dialup, then they might track connections to the ISP. But beyond that, what you do on the net isn’t tracked by the ISP. A website might track visitors, but that’s not the same thing… that’s a content provider, not a service provider.

    I’m tired of technically incompetent morons writing legislation.

  28. 28.

    Gratefulcub

    May 17, 2006 at 11:25 am

    Speaking of…how DOES Louisville end up with so many fat white ball chuckers? Is it a Big Mac for every completion?

    I think you are talking about University of Kentucky. Jared Lorenzen was the 280 QB.

    UL’s QBs are skinny white boys.

  29. 29.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 11:25 am

    The idiots here are the ones trying to claim there is some racial meaning.

    Hmm mmm mmm mmm. Mmm!

    Anyway, what nickname do you call the little pickaninnies?

  30. 30.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 11:27 am

    Anyway, what nickname do you call the little pickaninnies?

    Thank you for demonstrating your own racism, ppGaz.

  31. 31.

    Gratefulcub

    May 17, 2006 at 11:29 am

    Anyone have thoughts on the shitstorm in Basra?

    That was supposedly the ‘peaceful’ region. It appears to be a free fire war zone between the various militias that the Brits turned the region over to. Sorry, I meant Iraqi Forces, not militias.

    I also read a report of the Iranians fighting with their kurds, and the Turks are heading in the same direction. That was always one of the forgotten issues. An autonomous Kurdistan is seen as a threat to Iran, Syria, and Turkey.

  32. 32.

    Faux News

    May 17, 2006 at 11:29 am

    Well, I have an answer. 911 changed everything.

    In my case, it made me realize that terrorism wasn’t nearly as scary as an American government run amok.

    Now we know. Thanks, Tony, for asking!

    Hmmm. Good answer, but the RedState.com folks would like you to change “American Government” to “Liberal Democrats”. Thanks for your spin.

    On a personal note, are you a Top, Versatile, or Bottom? Just curious.

    Jeff Gannon
    Faux News

    PS: I can get you a White House tour if you play your cards right (wink)

  33. 33.

    Krista

    May 17, 2006 at 11:29 am

    And yet another open thread turns into a shitstorm of accusations….yay.

  34. 34.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 11:30 am

    Thank you for demonstrating your own racism, ppGaz.

    Whaw, I do b’lieve you got some colored blood in you, Steve. Yo’ is so skeered o’ da way we talks!

    Hmmm, mmm mmm.

  35. 35.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 11:32 am

    On a personal note, are you a Top, Versatile, or Bottom? Just curious.

    Jus’ like you, I am Just Curious.

  36. 36.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 11:34 am

    And yet another open thread turns into a shitstorm of accusations….yay.

    Irony is dead. The Dirty Sanchez girl lectures on thread decorum, and TOS lectures on racism.

    Next, Darrell will lecture on Civil Liberties.

  37. 37.

    Tim F.

    May 17, 2006 at 11:34 am

    If Tony Snow misspoke then I’m screwed. Heh.

    Honestly, the comments in that thread were the first time I heard that tar baby has racist connotations. If it really does then I wish that we could exorcise them somehow because it makes for a great allegory.

  38. 38.

    Faux News

    May 17, 2006 at 11:34 am

    Jus’ like you, I am Just Curious.

    Hmm. Playing “hard to get” huh? I had Brian at “hello”. Guess I need to up the ante.

    How about a hotel suite at the Hookergate, I mean Watergate hotel?

    Jeff Gannon

  39. 39.

    Punchy

    May 17, 2006 at 11:36 am

    I think you are talking about University of Kentucky. Jared Lorenzen was the 280 QB

    I’m having serious Big East/SEC/ACC confusion going on. You’re right…the Round Mound of Touchdown (Pillsbury Throwboy? How great was that name!) was that meathead from UK. And to think that I usually pride myself on general colly f-ball knowledge…

    I’m just going to shut my hole for awhile.

  40. 40.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 11:36 am

    I had Brian at “hello”.

    Yes, but he’s bilingual.

  41. 41.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 11:42 am

    Whaw, I do b’lieve you got some colored blood in you, Steve. Yo’ is so skeered o’ da way we talks!

    Keep it up. Pretty soon you’ll be using the n-word like the idiots at dKos.

  42. 42.

    demimondian

    May 17, 2006 at 11:42 am

    Actually, the whole tar baby story is interesting. On the one hand, I don’t think that anyone can read Uncle Remus without being aware of the essentially racist sterotypes in the language (“Don’ trow me in dat dere briar patch!”?) On the other hand, Brer Rabbit, who stands for the slave, *always gets away*. The slave is the hero of the story, portrayed as admirable for being clever and cunning. Isn’t that one of the great American virtues? (Seriously, look at folk tales throughout the country: the Arkansas Traveller, the Old Vermonter, the Yankee trader. Our culture is full of archetypes who aren’t the strongest, or the meanest…but, by God, they’re the most cunning!)

    So is there a place in our folklore for “color-aware stories”? Or do we need to put them on the shelf for our grandkids? I don’t know. WHat do you al lthink?

  43. 43.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 11:44 am

    I b’lieve yo’ has hugged the tar baby, Steve!

    Yes, yo’ surely has!

  44. 44.

    canuckistani

    May 17, 2006 at 11:46 am

    Crap. I live in isolation. I’ve used “tar baby” as a metaphor for Iraq for years now, and never realized it was a racist thing to say, having never heard it used in a derogatory way.
    Is this a legitimate complaint, or (if the feminists will pardon the example) manufactured outrage like trying to rename manholes “personholes”?

  45. 45.

    Krista

    May 17, 2006 at 11:46 am

    The Dirty Sanchez girl lectures on thread decorum, and TOS lectures on racism.

    It was more of a rueful observation than a lecture, actually. Jeez…who pissed on your Corn Flakes this morning?

  46. 46.

    Faux News

    May 17, 2006 at 11:47 am

    Yes, but he’s bilingual.

    Ok I know when to submit, I mean give in. This ain’t going nowhere.

    I guess you want to work on the campaign for the former porn star (Melody Damayo) who is trying to run as a Republican for the Governor of Nevada:

    Embed your links – Ed.

  47. 47.

    Krista

    May 17, 2006 at 11:48 am

    Is this a legitimate complaint, or (if the feminists will pardon the example) manufactured outrage like trying to rename manholes “personholes”?

    Are you serious? I’ve never heard of that in my life. Don’t we women have bigger battles to fight, like equal pay and reproductive rights?

  48. 48.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 11:49 am

    who pissed on your Corn Flakes this morning?

    Any time Steve uses the word “racism” in a post, you can be sure that we are about to have a bad day.

    Either his views are totally dysfunctional on the subject, or else he is into some really twisted snarky sarcasm on the subject. I can’t tell which, and don’t care. I’m just going to beat him like a broken down mule whenever he starts that crap.

  49. 49.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 11:51 am

    PS — Sorry you got in the crossfire. Please consider my Sanchez remark withdrawn. It’s the only Sanchez remark I ever made, so I think I get one do-over.

  50. 50.

    D. Mason

    May 17, 2006 at 11:53 am

    Personally I think more people in government should use the term tar baby. It eloquently describes the Iraq war for example. The medicare drug plan thingy too. Some might say the term describes the tax cuts even. Certainly this immigration debacle could be described as a tar baby of sorts. Hell Tar Baby could probably describe just about every piece of policy this administration has pursued. We could call it the tar baby administration. I like it.

  51. 51.

    Krista

    May 17, 2006 at 11:54 am

    No worries. I was just startled at you lumping me in with Darrell. I already got a hard enough time about that comment from Brian, so I was having an “Et tu, ppGaz” moment.

  52. 52.

    Punchy

    May 17, 2006 at 11:54 am

    Pretty soon you’ll be using the n-word like the idiots at dKos.

    Got a link to prove this?

  53. 53.

    Tim F.

    May 17, 2006 at 11:55 am

    Our culture is full of archetypes who aren’t the strongest, or the meanest…but, by God, they’re the most cunning!)

    Bugs Bunny.

  54. 54.

    Krista

    May 17, 2006 at 11:55 am

    We could call it the tar baby administration. I like it.

    The “clusterfuck” administration would probably serve nicely too.

  55. 55.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 11:56 am

    I was just startled at you lumping me in with Darrell.

    Look, it’s not easy being the only certified professional asshole here, and being right all the time. Even I can have an off day.

    Anyway, I’m waiting to see whether Steve is going to be foolish enough to dig that racism hole of his another two or three layers of the earth’s crust toward China today, or if he is smart enough to walk away now.

    Shh. I’m going back into my blind to wait for him.

  56. 56.

    demimondian

    May 17, 2006 at 11:56 am

    We could call it the tar baby administration. I like it.

    What would you say if the President ate a tar baby, though?

    You know, Tar Baby Administration (TBA) has real potential. We traded Gore and Clinton for Diebold and a draft TBA…yeah, I like it.

  57. 57.

    tBone

    May 17, 2006 at 11:56 am

    Internet service providers don’t retain records of user activities at all. The only thing an ISP tracks is bandwidth usage.

    Huh? I thought it was a fairly common practice for ISPs to keep at least short-term (~30 days) logs of user activity, including what IPs they visit, etc.

    The RIAA, for instance, has been pretty subpoena-happy when it comes to ISP logs.

  58. 58.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 11:58 am

    Actually, the whole tar baby story is interesting. On the one hand, I don’t think that anyone can read Uncle Remus without being aware of the essentially racist sterotypes in the language (“Don’ trow me in dat dere briar patch!”?)

    Maybe we could rewrite the stories and use the Queen’s English. Brer Rabbit could say “Please kind sir, do not throw me into that patch of briar. I do beg of you.”

    And they could be told by Lord Remus, instead of Uncle Remus. That way we shall have completely purged our culture of anything with character. Then we can be bland and boring, as God intended us to be.

    Instead of ‘Tar Baby’ we could use “Bituminous Baby”. I thought about maybe Pitch, but clearly the phrase “Pitch Dark” is racist, as is “Black as Pitch”.

    Actually we should probably just remove the phrase Black from our whole lexicon. From now on it will be known as the color that shall not be named

    And to be perfectly Politically Correct. We must boycot Negra Modelo beer. Sure, it’s a dark beer, but that’s no reason to use a racist word to describe it. How do you say “Color that shall not be named” in Spanish?

  59. 59.

    D. Mason

    May 17, 2006 at 12:00 pm

    What would you say if the President ate a tar baby, though?

    Good. I hope someone slipped a pretzel inside and he had to choke it all down with a big tall glass of drano.

  60. 60.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 12:01 pm

    Huh? I thought it was a fairly common practice for ISPs to keep at least short-term (~30 days) logs of user activity, including what IPs they visit, etc.

    Why would they want to devote the storage, time and effort to such a thing?

    The RIAA, for instance, has been pretty subpoena-happy when it comes to ISP logs.

    What the RIAA is looking for is who the IP address belongs to. So they have a name to tie to the lawsuit.

    They don’t go after people downloading content, just those distributing it.

  61. 61.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 12:03 pm

    Is this a legitimate complaint, or (if the feminists will pardon the example) manufactured outrage like trying to rename manholes “personholes”?

    It’s manufactured outrage.

  62. 62.

    Gary Farber

    May 17, 2006 at 12:07 pm

    “That Farber link is 404.”

    Not even slightly.

  63. 63.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 12:08 pm

    Pretty soon you’ll be using the n-word like the idiots at dKos.

    Got a link to prove this?

    Well this was the diary that pretty much destroyed my faith in dKos. You’ll note many of us were troll rated in the comments for complaining about the title. That isn’t some fringe, that diary has over 600 comments and sat on the recommended list for a whole day. To be fair, I did email Armando and he agreed that the title was wrong, but didn’t want to do anything about it for fear of a shitstorm.

    But if you want some more links, just run this search. It’s become a pretty common word used by people to bring attention to their diaries. :-(

  64. 64.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 12:10 pm

    Anyway, I’m waiting to see whether Steve is going to be foolish enough to dig that racism hole of his another two or three layers of the earth’s crust toward China today, or if he is smart enough to walk away now.

    Uhh, dude. You’re the one who has defended “Chocolate City”, and lamely tries to ridicule people by using racial epithets or talking in white-boy slang.

    Of course, maybe you’re just a troll, or a spoof. Either one is likely. If you’re for real, all you serve in doing is harming whatever cause you think you are fighting for.

  65. 65.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 12:13 pm

    Uhh, dude. You’re the one

    Look, we’ve gone around in the dirt on two different occasions on this subject, do you really want to go for a third?

    Because I’ll kick your ass all the way downtown, again, if you want to go that route. Or you could just drop it.

    It’s entirely up to you. Seriously, you can’t win this argument with me, and I while I have other things to do today than prove it to yo again, I will if I have to.

  66. 66.

    Ralph

    May 17, 2006 at 12:13 pm

    It’s manufactured outrage.

    I believe you mean personfactured outrage.

  67. 67.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 12:16 pm

    Oh, Steve? Just to be clear, I’ll whip your ass on this topic again, whether you come alone or with your girlfriend.

    Get it?

  68. 68.

    Darrell

    May 17, 2006 at 12:17 pm

    To sum up, the FBI uses PATRIOT Act-enhanced National Security Letters to secretly collect the confidential records of basically anybody they feel like, without the need to seek a judge’s authorization.

    To sum up, this is a blog reported rumor involving some anonymous leaker and few details.. a story which to my knowledge has not been substantiated or reported as a ‘news’ story by any reputable source, including ABC News which runs the blog. Please correct me if I’m mistaken, but I can’t find anybody reporting this as a ‘news’ story

    Tim F. keeps reporting this as if it’s fact, rather than unsubstantiated blog conjecture

  69. 69.

    DougJ

    May 17, 2006 at 12:17 pm

    What would you say if the President ate a tar baby, though?

    What about all the tar babies Clinton ate? When he and Gore did that bus tour, he’d stop every hour or two just to pick one off the side of the road and wolf it down? But I guess when Chimpy McHitlerburton does it, it’s a big problem.

  70. 70.

    DougJ

    May 17, 2006 at 12:18 pm

    Anyway, he had a National Security Letter that authorized him to eat the baby.

  71. 71.

    Darrell

    May 17, 2006 at 12:18 pm

    I went to see Mission Impossible III last night. Actually probably the best of the three. Although I gotta say the

    Tom Cruise, Katie Holmes lovey dovey stuff was kind of sickening.

    I have yet to see Thank You for Smoking. I might go to that tonight.(I’m in a movie watching mood)

    I bought Munich on DVD last week when it came out. Saw that in the theatres, but thought it was damn good.

    You’ve got good taste in movies. If you haven’t seen Match Point yet, see it.. it’s great. Another sleeper is Asylum

  72. 72.

    Darrell

    May 17, 2006 at 12:21 pm

    forgot to include the rest of Other Steve’s quote in the block “I went to see Mission Impossible III last night. Actually probably the best of the three. Although I gotta say..”

  73. 73.

    Perry Como

    May 17, 2006 at 12:21 pm

    The “clusterfuck” administration would probably serve nicely too.

    But that might offend all of the people that enjoy group sex.

  74. 74.

    DougJ

    May 17, 2006 at 12:23 pm

    Brother, we’ve got a disconnet. The president was elected, and that tar baby was selected.

  75. 75.

    Gratefulcub

    May 17, 2006 at 12:33 pm

    Let’s wait around until the government confesses to using NSLs to obtain journalists’ phone records.

    The administration is using NSLs to get phone records to stop leaks of the administration using NSLs to get phone records to stop leaks.

  76. 76.

    demimondian

    May 17, 2006 at 12:35 pm

    The “clusterfuck” administration would probably serve nicely too.

    But that might offend all of the people that enjoy group sex.

    Besides, I like to reserve the term “clusterfuck” for a certain competitor’s products.

  77. 77.

    Darrell

    May 17, 2006 at 12:37 pm

    The administration is using NSLs to get phone records to stop leaks of the administration using NSLs to get phone records to stop leaks.

    It would be nice if we had.. you know, some facts and details surrounding this

  78. 78.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 12:40 pm

    this is a blog reported rumor involving some anonymous leaker and few details..

    Uh no, Official Horse’s Ass of the Blogsite, it isn’t.

    FBI Acknowledges Use of NS Letters

    ABC News reports that the FBI has acknowledged that it was seeking reporters’ phone records to investigate leaks about secret prisons in Europe and warrantless wiretapping

    .

    “It used to be very hard and complicated to do this, but it no longer is in the Bush administration,” a senior federal official told ABC News “The Blotter” news blog.

    ABC News explained that a National Security Letter (NSL) is “a version of an administrative subpoena and are not signed by a judge. Under the law, a phone company receiving a NSL for phone records must provide them and may not divulge to the customer that the records have been given to the government.”

    Try to keep up Darrell.

  79. 79.

    Perry Como

    May 17, 2006 at 12:40 pm

    It would be nice if we had.. you know, some facts and details surrounding this

    Those are top secret and the terrorists would win if the details came out. The DoJ was going to investigate the allegations, but they couldn’t get the proper security clearances.

    As long as it’s in the name of nannystatism, every thing will be fine.

  80. 80.

    Gratefulcub

    May 17, 2006 at 12:40 pm

    It would be nice if we had.. you know, some facts and details surrounding this

    It would be nice to have an investigation on anything, but they are all blocked. Or Spectered.

  81. 81.

    Darrell

    May 17, 2006 at 12:45 pm

    Uh no, Official Horse’s Ass of the Blogsite, it isn’t.

    FBI Acknowledges Use of NS Letters

    ppgaz, read your own link. That Christian Monitor story you linked cites the ABC blog as its source

  82. 82.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 12:48 pm

    That Christian Monitor story you linked cites the ABC blog as its source

    Read the story, Darrell. The FBI response is from ABC News.

    Not a blog.

    “Brian Ross and Richard Esposito Report”

    Ross is Chief Investigative Correspondent for ABC News.

    Like I said, try to keep up, Darrell. You are always full of shit.

  83. 83.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 12:49 pm

    Oh, Steve? Just to be clear, I’ll whip your ass on this topic again, whether you come alone or with your girlfriend.

    Get it?

    ppGaz, I hate to break it to you, but you are the classic definition of a troll.

    Don’t take this the wrong way. I’m not ignoring you out of fear, I just don’t feel I should waste my time on your delusional rants.

  84. 84.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 12:52 pm

    ppgaz, read your own link. That Christian Monitor story you linked cites the ABC blog as its source

    Darrell is correct. The source thus far is a blog run by an ABC reporter. Perhaps it’s an example of Open Source journalism, where he reveals what he knows along the way as he develops the story.

  85. 85.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 12:52 pm

    Will you fucking learn how to use Google, Darrell?

    This story moved about a day ago. I posted a reference to it yesterday. Can you keep up?

  86. 86.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 12:54 pm

    The source thus far is a blog run by an ABC reporter

    The story is by two front line ABC News reporters, and is sourced widely as being from ABC News. Darrell is wrong, he was wrong yesterday, and he is wrong today.

    And so are you. Brian Ross is not a “blogger.” He’s ABC News’ top man on this type of story. It just so happens that they broke the story on the blog page. That doesn’t make the story some concoction of an “anonymous blogger.”

  87. 87.

    Darrell

    May 17, 2006 at 12:55 pm

    Will you fucking learn how to use Google, Darrell?

    Every link I checked on that list cited the same ABC blog as the source.

  88. 88.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 12:57 pm

    Don’t take this the wrong way. I’m not ignoring you out of fear, I just don’t feel I should waste my time on your delusional rants.

    Oh trust me, I am not taking anything the wrong way.

    You were full of shit the first time on this topic, and the second. Your views on the subject of racism are about as dysfunctional as anything I have ever seen in here, and I would be more than happy to rub your nose in it again.

    I said this to you the first time (some … 90 days or so ago?): You wouldn’t know real racism if it bit you in the ass. Which, judging by your attitude about it, it has.

  89. 89.

    Darrell

    May 17, 2006 at 12:57 pm

    Perhaps it’s an example of Open Source journalism, where he reveals what he knows along the way as he develops the story.

    You’re probably right.

  90. 90.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 1:02 pm

    Every link I checked

    So you are saying that Brian Ross, ABC News’ top investigative reporter, has not gone with a story that the FBI acknowledged the use of NS Letters as described over the weekend?

    And that the news wires are sourcing Ross’ story as being from “ABC News?”

    And that the FBI has NOT acknowledged the use of the NS Letters as described in the story?

    That all of this just rests on the word of some “anonymous leaker?”

    That’s your contribution here today, Darrell?

  91. 91.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 1:05 pm

    Other interesting story.

    Pennsylvania kicked out 14 sitting legislators, including the Republican leaders in the legislator, for voting themselves a pay raise.

    I must say, that’s good organizing, to be able to carry a grudge that long and be willing and able to act upon it. Although other reports I’ve seen show low turnout maybe the reason it was so easy.

    Bob Casey got the nod against insane Santorum.

    And Joe Sestak got the nod against radical Weldon.

  92. 92.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 1:06 pm

    The unfortunate thing about blogs is that unlike usenet you can’t plonk the trolls.

  93. 93.

    canuckistani

    May 17, 2006 at 1:12 pm

    Is this a legitimate complaint, or (if the feminists will pardon the example) manufactured outrage like trying to rename manholes “personholes”?

    Are you serious? I’ve never heard of that in my life. Don’t we women have bigger battles to fight, like equal pay and reproductive rights?

    It was the point at which the Political Correctness movement jumped the shark. You can google for it. And yes, it trivializes serious issues. And no, i don’t want to have a PC/unPC argument with anyone.
    I am curious to know if anyone was actually offended by the use of the tar-baby metaphor, or just upset because “people might be offended”. I don’t forgive the Bush administration much, but even I don’t believe there was anything sinister in Snow’s comment, other than possible ignorance.

  94. 94.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 1:14 pm

    The unfortunate thing about blogs is that unlike usenet you can’t plonk the trolls.

    Yeah, guys like you are a dime a dozen on Usenet. You talk plonk all the time but never actually do it.

    It’s a fucking cop out. You have no argument, so you will stir up churn and then start talking Plonk.

    C’mon, no lectures from you today on the subject of what is and what is not racism? Grab that tar baby and hug it all day, Steve …. what are you waiting for? You know you are dying to get it on.

  95. 95.

    jaime

    May 17, 2006 at 1:23 pm

    That’s odd. I grew up thinking Tar Baby was on par with pickanniny or coon or porch monkey. Just a little less offensive than nigger.

    I think it is strange that TOS is defending the use of Tar baby because he, as a white guy, doesn’t find it offensive and doesn’t know why blacks should find it offensive either. After all it does harken back to the quaint ole timey days when slaves were sometimes more clever than their cruel but colorful massas.

    I understand ppGaz’s point and I do understand to a certain point where TOS is coming from. But to be outraged that anyone, especially blacks, would find “Tar Baby” offenisve is itself ridiculous.

  96. 96.

    Mr Furious

    May 17, 2006 at 1:27 pm

    Hey Other Steve, kiss my ass. All of a sudden I’m an idiot and I need to get a fucking job?

    You might want to actually READ what I wrote instead of merely (over)reacting. I was clear that Snow had no racist intent. In fact, I don’t even allude to his mindset or subconscious motivation as being racist. I’m just wondering what kind of jackass public speaker steps up to a mic at the White House and says “tar baby.” Twice.

    Tim F can feel free to use it on his blog, and in conversation and in his next speech. So can you or anyone else. Even Snow if he wants to, but he should be ready to face a bit of questioning as to the wisdom of using that phrase when it might be offensive to some.

    I’m not trying to be the PC police here, so back the fuck off.

  97. 97.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 1:40 pm

    That’s odd. I grew up thinking Tar Baby was on par with pickanniny or coon or porch monkey. Just a little less offensive than nigger.

    Where do you live? I’ve never heard this word used in any manner other than to refer to the Brer Rabbit story.

  98. 98.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 1:42 pm

    That’s odd. I grew up thinking Tar Baby was on par with pickanniny or coon or porch monkey. Just a little less offensive than nigger.

    I wouldn’t say so. “Tar baby” in the Snow context is a metaphor for “can of worms” or something that once you touch it, you can’t free yourself from it.

    “Hug the tar baby” means to get into something from which you will not be able to extricate yourself.

    A good example here at BJ is Darrell and the Gay Scout Caballero subject. Darrell has “hugged the tar baby” by lining himself up with essentially baseless bigotry about gay people. Why he chose to do this, I have no idea. Of course, the joke is on him, since the Boy Scouts didn’t move to exclude gays out of fear of child abuse .. at least in their official position. They did it because they claim that gays hold “values” and “beliefs” that are not compatible with the Scouts’ values. Exactly what that means, you are left to figure out for yourself. And it’s probably perfectly legal for them to do it.

    But Darrell foolishly hugged the “most parents would not be happy that their kid went camping with a gay scout leader” thing and now he is, to coin a phrase, stuck with that assertion. I am quite happy to make sure it is stuck firmly to him at any time, day or night.

  99. 99.

    Perry Como

    May 17, 2006 at 1:44 pm

    Where we are headed thanks to the nannystatists:

    Previously I noted that because of the changing nature of warfare and the digital revolution, the United States is rapidly moving toward a National Surveillance State. Whichever party is in power will work toward the creation of such a state, the only difference is how they will negotiate the risks to civil liberties and the concentration of power in the Executive.

    The National Surveillance State poses two distinct dangers. The first is that the executive’s power to conduct war will displace the area previously assumed to fall within the criminal justice system. Hence the Executive increasingly has the choice to treat dangers within the United States as matters of war and national security rather than as matters of crime and criminal justice. The latter, but not the former, come with a series of traditional civil liberties protections that constrain and check the Executive. If the government can create a parallel law enforcement structure that routes around the traditional criminal justice system, and which is not subject to the oversight and restrictions of the criminal justice system, it may be increasingly tempted to make use of that parallel system for more and more things.

  100. 100.

    Mr Furious

    May 17, 2006 at 1:45 pm

    Where do you live? I’ve never heard this word used in any manner other than to refer to the Brer Rabbit story.

    Where do YOU live, TOS, I’d like to come there and raise my daughter…

  101. 101.

    danelectro

    May 17, 2006 at 1:47 pm

    And to be perfectly Politically Correct. We must boycot Negra Modelo beer.

    those are fighting words.

  102. 102.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 1:47 pm

    Hey Other Steve, kiss my ass. All of a sudden I’m an idiot and I need to get a fucking job?

    No, you can kiss my ass. I would have saw the speech and thought nothing of it. You decided to suddenly be outraged. Talk about overreacting.

    Even Snow if he wants to, but he should be ready to face a bit of questioning as to the wisdom of using that phrase when it might be offensive to some.

    And you should be ready to be called a Politically Correct Ninny who has way to much fucking time on his hands when you complain or question it.

    I’m so fucking tired of political correctness. It’s one thing to be clearly racist, but it’s quite another to start manufacturing outrage over something which quite clearly has no negative connotation.

  103. 103.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 1:49 pm

    Where do YOU live, TOS, I’d like to come there and raise my daughter…

    Midwest. Specifically Minnesota, but I’ve done time in Iowa and Illinois as well.

  104. 104.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 1:49 pm

    TOS belongs to the John Cole school of political and social theory … that symbols and words are real, and behavior and attitudes are less important.

    Thus the name of the blog, and its metaphor. Here, the Hot Air that describes a thing is more important than the thing itself. Here in the blahsphere, we are “sending messages” when we do and say things. And if the message that is heard is a bad message, then the sender must be blamed.

    Thus we are in the upside down world of the blahsphere.

    It’s a little like Iran, only with better food.

  105. 105.

    Mr Furious

    May 17, 2006 at 1:53 pm

    Unlike the stories I linked to and read on this topic, I took for granted that people were familiar with both connotations of the “tar baby” phrase. That seems not to be true for TOS, and conversly for some, it might ONLY be a slur…

    I cannot remember ever really hearing anyone seriously use the term “tar baby” to refer to a person, but I knew what it meant. Somehow.

    I am also pretty sure can recall that I learned that derogatory/racsit meaning before learning the “inextricable situation” version.

    If you are willing to recognize that the term in one connotation or another is racist or derogatory, it behooves a public speaker (esp. a WH spokeman) to be very careful about using it or avoid it to be safe.

    THAT is what I meant by poor choice of words. Snow chose the right words, but it wa poor judgement to do so.

    Just my opinion.

  106. 106.

    demimondian

    May 17, 2006 at 1:55 pm

    Actually, TOS, if you run (ick) Firefox, then Perry Como has a greasemonkey script for plonking trolls.

  107. 107.

    D. Mason

    May 17, 2006 at 1:57 pm

    It’s a little like Iran, only with better food.

    That is racist sir, you are a racist. To imply that Iranians have bad food is to say that they are culinarily inferior. For shame.

  108. 108.

    Mr Furious

    May 17, 2006 at 1:57 pm

    I’m in Michigan, so you don’t have to come far to kiss my ass, Steve. After you swim across the lake, be sure to towel off. Otherwise I could call you a wetback, and I’d be technically correct…

  109. 109.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 1:59 pm

    That is racist sir, you are a racist.

    Chuckle.

    Everyone is a racist, at BJ. We all wallow in our racistiness.

  110. 110.

    Mr Furious

    May 17, 2006 at 1:59 pm

    Oh, and Steve, I know you can’t actually see me, but trust me when I say I was not outraged by any part of this story. I merely found it interesting.

    You can usually tell when I’m actually pissed off.

  111. 111.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 2:00 pm

    You can usually tell when I’m actually pissed off.

    Yep, your url gets a little reddish.

  112. 112.

    Darrell

    May 17, 2006 at 2:03 pm

    If you are willing to recognize that the term in one connotation or another is racist or derogatory, it behooves a public speaker (esp. a WH spokeman) to be very careful about using it or avoid it to be safe.

    Like use of the word niggardly

  113. 113.

    Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 2:05 pm

    It’s funny in a way that there are certain terms that have very strong connotations in a certain region of the country, but not elsewhere. So what happens is, you have people who grew up understanding that a certain term is racist and they are OUTRAGED that anyone could be insensitive enough to use it, and there are people who grew up thinking it’s a perfectly normal thing to say and they are OUTRAGED that anyone could think it’s a racist thing to say.

    There’s no real point except that people should probably calm down just a bit.

  114. 114.

    Perry Como

    May 17, 2006 at 2:06 pm

    if you run (ick) Firefox

    Your Microsoft is showing.

  115. 115.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 2:12 pm

    “Terms” are not racist. Terms are just terms. People are racist. Behavior can be racist. Speech can be motivated by racism. But words are just words.

    Only in a blahsphere where words are worshipped and “sending messages” is a nutty idea attached to everything that moves or speaks, can words be thought of as being “racist.” If you think words are where racism lives, then you probably worry about things like blasphemy.

    What do you think Political Correctness is? It’s an inappropriate focus on words as if words contained the evil spirits.

    There are evil spirits, and there are words used by people who are possessed by the evil spirits, but the words are not the evil spirits.

    Okay, folks? Let words just be words, otherwise, you are giving the manipulators and the demagogues the instruments they need to fuck you over.

  116. 116.

    Perry Como

    May 17, 2006 at 2:13 pm

    Like use of the word niggardly

    Actually, it’s not. I grew up in the midwest and I’ve heard the term tar baby used as a racial epithet. It does have a dual meaning depending on the context. People that were outraged about the use of the word niggardly were just morons. There’s no dual meaning to the word.

    The Tony Snow flap over tar baby is moronic too. Tony Snow is a tool. He will do toolish things. There are more important things to be concerned about.

    We have a government that is spying on its citizens and Negroponte is providing cover for companys so they can lie about their involvement in spying on law abiding citizens.

  117. 117.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 2:15 pm

    There are more important things to be concerned about.

    Heh. How dare you come into the heart of Wordland and dis the words?

  118. 118.

    Mr Furious

    May 17, 2006 at 2:19 pm

    We have a government that is spying on its citizens and Negroponte is providing cover for companys so they can lie about their involvement in spying on law abiding citizens.

    I’d like you to start calling him African-Americanponte from now on. Got a problem with that Other Steve?

    :-)

  119. 119.

    Catsy

    May 17, 2006 at 2:19 pm

    Before people started posting about Snow’s “tar baby” comment, I had never–not even once–heard of it being a racial slur, or having racist etymology. I’d always understood it to be used precisely how Snow used it, and knew it came from the same stories as everyone else.

    This is a tempest in a teapot. I understand why Mr Furious brought it up, because once you know it has those connotations to some people, it’s a valid point that what is acceptable language for a regular person might be something to avoid when speaking in Snow’s capacity. But in the grand scheme of things, I’d rather vent my spleen about the fact that he fucking lies than about his choice of folk metaphors.

  120. 120.

    Santa Claus

    May 17, 2006 at 2:19 pm

    Settle down, people! Don’t you know it’s Christmas?

  121. 121.

    Perry Como

    May 17, 2006 at 2:19 pm

    I’d like you to start calling him African-Americanponte from now on. Got a problem with that Other Steve?

    :spit:

    PotD.

  122. 122.

    g-rant

    May 17, 2006 at 2:20 pm

    Actually, it’s not. I grew up in the midwest and I’ve heard the term tar baby used as a racial epithet. It does have a dual meaning depending on the context. People that were outraged about the use of the word niggardly were just morons. There’s no dual meaning to the word.

    I’m going to disagree on that one. “Niggard(ly)” sounds way too much like the n-word. Yes, it is not related to it, but it’s pretty common for languages to lose words that are a little too close taboo words. Check out the history of f-{vowel}-k words in English and the word “coney/cunny”. Or relatedly, why we don’t call “cut-splices” “cunt-splices” anymore.

    I’d guess that the vast majority of Americans will think “nigger” when they hear “niggard”, even if they know better.

  123. 123.

    D. Mason

    May 17, 2006 at 2:26 pm

    I’d guess that the vast majority of Americans will think “nigger” when they hear “niggard”, even if they know better.

    Why do you think that is? Could it be that political correctness has been pounded into our skulls since we were children? Nah of course not.

  124. 124.

    Darrell

    May 17, 2006 at 2:29 pm

    “Niggard(ly)” sounds way too much like the n-word….. I’d guess that the vast majority of Americans will think “nigger” when they hear “niggard”, even if they know better.

    Puss, Pussy cat.. Sheet, shit.. Beach, bitch, etc

    Where is Pooh > Poo > Poop today?

  125. 125.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 2:31 pm

    Puss, Pussy cat.. Sheet, shit.. Beach, bitch, etc

    Let it all out, man.

  126. 126.

    Krista

    May 17, 2006 at 2:32 pm

    D. Mason – or, it could just be that the two words sound very, very much alike, to the point where it would be easy to mistake the latter for the former.

    It comes down to knowing your audience. If someone is in a group of people who he or she knows well, he or she can loosen up the language, because there is a common assumption that the audience will already know the speaker’s motivation and intent. When one is speaking to a large, unknown audience (such as the entire frackin’ country), one has to be much more cautious. It may suck. It may be a sign of a society that is overly politically correct. But no matter which way you slice it, when you’re a spokesthingie, every word that comes out of your mouth has to be very carefully chosen and considered. Because as soon as people focus on a careless turn of phrase, they’re no longer focusing on your message, and you’ve failed in your job.

  127. 127.

    Perry Como

    May 17, 2006 at 2:32 pm

    I’d guess that the vast majority of Americans will think “nigger” when they hear “niggard”, even if they know better.

    But first you have to ask, is our children learning? I prefer not to subscribe to the lowest common denominator method of communication. That’s why I avoid Fox News.

  128. 128.

    Mr Furious

    May 17, 2006 at 2:33 pm

    PotD.

    I’m happy something good could come out of this whole fiasco.

    Catsy, you are spot on. The outrage is that he either lied or refused to answer questions about the Administration’s outrageous behavior, not how he chose to do it.

    Though at this rate, Snow will be forced to be deliberately offensive and start telling people to “Fuck off” as a diversion, because the lies wiull have worn thin…

    I’m with you on that one too g-rant. Sorry to those linguistic purists who feel the need to cling to all the similar-sounding and thereby insulting words of yore.

  129. 129.

    Zifnab

    May 17, 2006 at 2:34 pm

    Darrell’s got the terets.

  130. 130.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 2:35 pm

    I’d like you to start calling him African-Americanponte from now on. Got a problem with that Other Steve?

    I was just going to suggest the Politically Correct Ninny’s would probably be demanding that.

    Although shouldn’t it be “Coloree Que No será nombrado Ponte”?

    The one I found fascinating was when the newspapers started referring to blacks in South Africa as African-Americans, because they wanted to be politically correct.

  131. 131.

    Mr Furious

    May 17, 2006 at 2:35 pm

    Because as soon as people focus on a careless turn of phrase, they’re no longer focusing on your message, and you’ve failed in your job.

    Or in the case of a Bush spokesperson, you’ve performed splendidly!

  132. 132.

    tBone

    May 17, 2006 at 2:36 pm

    Check out the history of f-{vowel}-k words in English

    So that’s why I take so much flack for using a fork.

    Re: tar baby, I also grew up in the Midwest and I’ve always been aware of the racial connotation. I don’t think Snow meant anything by it, but as a professional communicator he probably could have chosen a better phrase to illustrate his point.

  133. 133.

    Mr Furious

    May 17, 2006 at 2:37 pm

    “… referring to blacks in South Africa as African-Americans…”

    Ha! Now THAT is hilarious!

  134. 134.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 2:38 pm

    The one I found fascinating was when the newspapers started referring to blacks in South Africa as African-Americans, because they wanted to be politically correct.

    You probably think that Coco Chanel was black.

  135. 135.

    Darrell

    May 17, 2006 at 2:41 pm

    The one I found fascinating was when the newspapers started referring to blacks in South Africa as African-Americans, because they wanted to be politically correct.

    Good point. You never read about Canadians referring to their black citizens as ‘African-Canadians’, or Panamanians referring to theirs as ‘African-Panamanians’, etc. Our culture is saturated with political correctness

  136. 136.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 2:42 pm

    Why do you think that is? Could it be that political correctness has been pounded into our skulls since we were children? Nah of course not.

    That’s the problem here.

    The phrase ‘Tar Baby’ did not have a negative connotation until the PC Ninny’s made it up. Much like the word Squaw. Or the example of niggardly that Darrell linked to.

    And just to be clear, this PC bullshit is bipartisan. The Republican whinos complaining about X-mas, not realizing that the X is a shorthand for Xristos, the greek word for Christ. In fact all throughout the original Greek versions of the gosples there is great use of shorthand… considering they were hand copied it’s understandable.

  137. 137.

    Krista

    May 17, 2006 at 2:49 pm

    Good point. You never read about Canadians referring to their black citizens as ‘African-Canadians’, or Panamanians referring to theirs as ‘African-Panamanians’, etc. Our culture is saturated with political correctness

    Actually, Darrell, I have to correct you on that. The term African-Canadian is used here. It isn’t used as much in the everyday vernacular, but the term does exist and it is used.

  138. 138.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 2:49 pm

    Good point. You never read about Canadians referring to their black citizens as ‘African-Canadians’, or Panamanians referring to theirs as ‘African-Panamanians’, etc. Our culture is saturated with political correctness

    But there are French-Canadians.

    I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing in America, as it helps groups to self-identify with each other on cultural grounds, but it’s ridiculous in the context of Africa.

    The problem in Europe is the opposite. There are no African-French, because they can’t be French. They’re Africans, and always will be. So in that regard, the multiculturalism as practiced in America is a great step forward. Our concept of the melting pot, as exemplified by our multicultural history is a good thing. We now have so many words, foods, customs, etc. from all over the world which are now part of the American experience.

  139. 139.

    Perry Como

    May 17, 2006 at 2:50 pm

    The phrase ‘Tar Baby’ did not have a negative connotation until the PC Ninny’s made it up.

    Er, it did have a negative connotation before the whole PC crap came about. Still, it’s a contextual thing. Maybe Bush should send the National Guard out to check on this entire tar baby dust up. With hurricane season coming up, they don’t have anything else to do.

  140. 140.

    Catsy

    May 17, 2006 at 2:50 pm

    Funny thing is, I grew up in Virginia, where the curriculum is steeped in early American and Southern history. In my junior high school class there was a boy who wore Confederate flags every day and had them on his notebook, he was like a walking caricature. And I still never heard of that connotation.

    Weird.

  141. 141.

    Mr Furious

    May 17, 2006 at 2:51 pm

    Good point. You never read about Canadians referring to their black citizens as ‘African-Canadians’, or Panamanians referring to theirs as ‘African-Panamanians’, etc. Our culture is saturated with political correctness

    I disagree. They should be referred to as African-Africans.

    [/snark]

    Our culture is saturated with political correctness

    Well, perhaps deservedly so. We are not all that far from a pretty ugly past. I heard an ineresting story today on NPR about Nat King Cole and how on his television show, he was allowed to dance and flirt with Eartha Kitt or Ella Fitzgerald, but if Dinah Shore or Peggy Lee were a guest, they were separated by a strategically-placed piano.

    Political correctness once in a while now seems like a small price to pay in my opinion. Does it get over the top at times? Sure. Does it result in a double-standard for white public figures or sportscasters? Yeah. I can live with it.

    In very few cases does the offending party get to tell the offended party whether they should be offended or not. It’s that simple.

  142. 142.

    Perry Como

    May 17, 2006 at 2:57 pm

    There are 3,501 terrorists operating in the US. Oh, nevermind. It’s just some blogger, not a real reporter.

  143. 143.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 2:58 pm

    Er, it did have a negative connotation before the whole PC crap came about.

    Nope.

    Look it up in the dictionary.

    Main Entry: tar baby
    Function: noun
    Etymology: from the tar baby that trapped Brer Rabbit in an Uncle Remus story by Joel Chandler Harris
    : something from which it is nearly impossible to extricate oneself

    You’ve got to really work hard to find a definition which is deragatory, because in common usage it refers to the Brer Rabbit story.

  144. 144.

    Darrell

    May 17, 2006 at 2:58 pm

    Political correctness once in a while now seems like a small price to pay in my opinion. Does it get over the top at times? Sure. Does it result in a double-standard for white public figures or sportscasters? Yeah. I can live with it.

    Why are you so fast to surrender your freedom of speech? [/drama queen hyperbole]

  145. 145.

    Darrell

    May 17, 2006 at 3:03 pm

    But there are French-Canadians.

    I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing in America, as it helps groups to self-identify with each other on cultural grounds, but it’s ridiculous in the context of Africa.

    I agree with you about the Africa-Africans bit, but to refer to our black citizens as African-American even if they came from Jamaica or Colombia? that seems nonsensical

  146. 146.

    Perry Como

    May 17, 2006 at 3:04 pm

    You’ve got to really work hard to find a definition which is deragatory, because in common usage it refers to the Brer Rabbit story.

    In colloquial usage amongst people that bandy about racial epithets, it is deragatory. In my personal experience, growing up, I’ve heard black people referred to as tar babies. And the people using that term were not referring to “something from which it is nearly impossible to extricate oneself”.

  147. 147.

    tBone

    May 17, 2006 at 3:07 pm

    In colloquial usage amongst people that bandy about racial epithets, it is deragatory.

    I second Perry Como. I’ve known it had a derogatory connotation ever since I was a kid, years before the PC explosion.

  148. 148.

    John S.

    May 17, 2006 at 3:08 pm

    The phrase ‘Tar Baby’ did not have a negative connotation until the PC Ninny’s made it up.

    While the accepted definition of the term is a situation or problem from which it is virtually impossible to disentangle oneself, the term can also be found on lists of ethnic slurs. To imply otherwise is sheer stupidity, as this excerpt illustrates:

    The Tar Baby story is, of course, one of the Uncle Remus tales as presented by Joel Chandler Harris. Delivered in the proper dialect, it becomes a caricature of how blacks expressed themselves in the South. Although the overall nature of the Uncle Remus oeuvre is debatable as to whether it disparages blacks or gives them a moral authority not found in other pieces of literature of the time, what is less debatable is the negative connotations of the term “tar baby”. According to R. Bruce Bickley Jr., an English professor at Florida State University and biographer of Joel Chandler Harris: “The trouble with the term ‘tar baby’ is people associate it with the ‘N-word,’ … During Harris’ time and the ’20s and ’30s as well, the Tar Baby is associated with any black person or figure.”

    Perhaps a person may be unaware that the term has negative connotations, but to insist that such a thing is a recent phenomenon is preposterous.

  149. 149.

    Mr Furious

    May 17, 2006 at 3:13 pm

    You’ve got to really work hard to find a definition which is deragatory, because in common usage it refers to the Brer Rabbit story.

    Sorry Steve. It’s right there on wikipedia (you know, a resource actually impacted by common usage):

    Tar Baby
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    “The tar baby is a form of a character widespread in African folklore. In various folktales, gum, wax, or other sticky material is used to trap a person.”
    In Southern black speech in the 19th century, the word “baby” referred to both a baby and a child’s “doll.” Thus, the expression “tar baby” meant a tar doll or tar mannequin. For an example of such a character in popular American culture see Br’er Rabbit.

    The term also has a negative connotation. Again, according to [1]:
    “The expression tar baby is also used occasionally as a derogatory term for black people (in the U.S. it refers to African-Americans; in New Zealand it refers to Maoris), or among blacks as a term for a particularly dark-skinned person.”

    The dual connotations associated with the term have resulted in many issues for public figures that attempt to make use of the term to refer to a sticky situation. [2] [3]

    Merriam-Webster’s choice not to include an offensive slang entry does not render the final word on common usage. As many upthread have noted, use of this phrase as derogatory is common knowledge.

  150. 150.

    g-rant

    May 17, 2006 at 3:13 pm

    Why do you think that is? Could it be that political correctness has been pounded into our skulls since we were children? Nah of course not.

    No, it’s a common happening when a word sounds way too much like a taboo word. Another good English example I mentioned is “coney”, which used to mean “bunny/rabbit” and rhymed with “honey”. Well, it sounded a bit too much like a certain other word, so the pronunciation became the same as the “island” in Brooklyn with the good hot dogs. And now we don’t even use it anymore.

    You know “niggardly” means “miserly”, but the connection is easy to make with “nigger”. There’s a related phenomenon called folk etymology where people try and make sense of a words meaning, such as people pronouncing Alzheimer’s as “Old Timers”, asparagus as “sparrow grass”, etc.

    Yeah, it’s stupid to fire or chastise someone for using “niggardly” innocently, but it’s pretty much a dead word.

  151. 151.

    g-rant

    May 17, 2006 at 3:18 pm

    You could probably also throw “tar baby” into the folk etymology mix. I am in my late twenties, educated, and not very familiar with the Brer Rabbit folk stories. I would guess that many of my generation are also unfamiliar with the stories. So if you don’t know where tar baby comes from, it’s easy to make the leap to the derogatory meaning.

  152. 152.

    Pb

    May 17, 2006 at 3:21 pm

    What, some people are offended by “tar baby“? Who knew? Next you’ll be telling me that some people are offended by Huckleberry Finn, or that Aunt Jemima isn’t just a pancake syrup…

  153. 153.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 3:21 pm

    I agree with you about the Africa-Africans bit, but to refer to our black citizens as African-American even if they came from Jamaica or Colombia? that seems nonsensical

    Maybe, but at some point their family came from Africa. It might have been 400 years ago, but then my family came here from England about the same time, and I think of myself as English along with my German background.

    We have Norwegian and Swedish festivals around here to remember their heritage. I see nothing wrong with any of that.

  154. 154.

    Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 3:24 pm

    Another good English example I mentioned is “coney”, which used to mean “bunny/rabbit” and rhymed with “honey”. Well, it sounded a bit too much like a certain other word, so the pronunciation became the same as the “island” in Brooklyn with the good hot dogs. And now we don’t even use it anymore.

    I feel compelled to point out that Coney Island is, in fact, named after rabbits, so the English probably rhymed it with “honey” back in the day as well.

  155. 155.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 3:27 pm

    Sorry Steve. It’s right there on wikipedia (you know, a resource actually impacted by common usage):

    I could edit wikipedia to say anything.

  156. 156.

    Darrell

    May 17, 2006 at 3:30 pm

    Maybe, but at some point their family came from Africa. It might have been 400 years ago, but then my family came here from England about the same time, and I think of myself as English along with my German background.

    Yeah, but before that they may have come from Rome..How far back do you want to go? Same thing with referring to a black American as ‘African American’, whose family immigrated generations back from Trinidad. I usually don’t have a big problem with ethnic identifiers except when they’re used to divide people.

    We have Norwegian and Swedish festivals around here to remember their heritage. I see nothing wrong with any of that.

    Me either.. sounds like a good time. Yai liker Norway

  157. 157.

    Andrew

    May 17, 2006 at 3:31 pm

    Oooohhh. Bill Bennett just said “inside baseball” on CNN.

    Maybe he’s spoofing himself.

  158. 158.

    neil

    May 17, 2006 at 3:31 pm

    I could edit wikipedia to say anything.

    It wouldn’t last.

  159. 159.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 3:32 pm

    You could probably also throw “tar baby” into the folk etymology mix. I am in my late twenties, educated, and not very familiar with the Brer Rabbit folk stories. I would guess that many of my generation are also unfamiliar with the stories. So if you don’t know where tar baby comes from, it’s easy to make the leap to the derogatory meaning.

    I think you may be right.

    The Brer Rabbit books were probably banned from the schools, just like Tom Sawyer and other 19th century American literature because of the way they dealt with racial issues.

    So we’ve lost part of our heritage as a result of PC Ninny’s… just like we can no longer watch Bugs Bunny and Road Runner cartoons without censoring.

  160. 160.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 3:35 pm

    I could edit wikipedia to say anything.

    It wouldn’t last.

    Sure it would. You just need to know how to properly play the game.

  161. 161.

    W.B. Reeves

    May 17, 2006 at 3:36 pm

    You’ve got to really work hard to find a definition which is deragatory, because in common usage it refers to the Brer Rabbit story

    Oh please. As if a dictionary is going to lead off with a derogatory slang meaning as a definition. Tar baby and the story that goes along with it have always had a double meaning attached them. The secondary one being that it was Joel Chandler Harris’, who used to live about three miles from my current residence, metaphor for white racial paranoia in the South. While Harris’ “Uncle Remus” stories are hardly frothing with negrophobia, the same can’t be said of the editorials he wrote in support of Jim Crow laws and the disenfranchisement of black voters.

    I’m not surprised that people outside of the South would be ignorant of this history but I’m delighted to hear that Catsy never learned of it’s double meaning during her Virginia school days. I suspect this indicates that she came of age after the collapse of de jure racial segregation.

  162. 162.

    Pb

    May 17, 2006 at 3:37 pm

    The Other Steve,

    The Brer Rabbit books were probably banned from the schools, just like Tom Sawyer and other 19th century American literature because of the way they dealt with racial issues.

    I don’t know about Tom Sawyer being banned as well, but as far as Uncle Remus goes, if they hear them at all, maybe kids only grow up with the sanitized versions, as opposed to the originals:

    “Didn’t the fox never catch the rabbit, Uncle Remus?” asked the little boy the next evening.

    “He come mighty nigh it, honey, sho’s you born–Brer Fox did. One day atter Brer Rabbit fool ‘im wid dat calamus root, Brer Fox went ter wuk en got ‘im some tar, en mix it wid some turkentime, en fix up a contrapshun w’at he call a Tar-Baby, en he tuck dish yer Tar-Baby en he sot ‘er in de big road, en den he lay off in de bushes fer to see what de news wuz gwine ter be. En he didn’t hatter wait long, nudder, kaze bimeby here come Brer Rabbit pacin’ down de road–lippity-clippity, clippity -lippity–dez ez sassy ez a jay-bird. Brer Fox, he lay low. Brer Rabbit come prancin’ ‘long twel he spy de Tar-Baby, en den he fotch up on his behime legs like he wuz ‘stonished. De Tar Baby, she sot dar, she did, en Brer Fox, he lay low.

  163. 163.

    Darrell

    May 17, 2006 at 3:37 pm

    Sure it would. You just need to know how to properly play the game.

    Especially on a topic dealing with subjective opinion. Some say that…

  164. 164.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 3:37 pm

    Yeah, but before that they may have come from Rome..How far back do you want to go? Same thing with referring to a black American as ‘African American’, whose family immigrated generations back from Trinidad. I usually don’t have a big problem with ethnic identifiers except when they’re used to divide people.

    I don’t think African-American was created in order to divide people. They were just tired of being called negros, and wanted something different.

    In a generations time, the word will die out as the need is no longer necessary.

  165. 165.

    Pb

    May 17, 2006 at 3:43 pm

    As for Merrie Melodies… yeah, some things they just don’t show anymore. It’s the same with Disney, really.

  166. 166.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 3:44 pm

    Especially on a topic dealing with subjective opinion. Some say that…

    You’ll note in the history of of that page, that the Negative connotations were written on 16 May 2006.

    We have nothing dating back to say 1890 when the Brer Rabbit stories were contemporary showing that the term is negative. I’ve looked, and I simply can find no reference.

    It’s all recent, which supports my claim that the word did not have negative meaning until the PC Ninny’s decided to fabricate it as such. Much like the word Squaw.

  167. 167.

    Pb

    May 17, 2006 at 3:47 pm

    I’ve got to say, African-American, although perhaps confusing or inaccurate, is still way better than ‘negroid’, at least. And, for that matter, ‘white’ (or–god forbid–European-American) is way better than caucasoid…

  168. 168.

    Pb

    May 17, 2006 at 3:51 pm

    The Other Steve,

    How recent are we talking about here?

  169. 169.

    tBone

    May 17, 2006 at 3:53 pm

    Other Steve – did you miss John S’s post?

    According to R. Bruce Bickley Jr., an English professor at Florida State University and biographer of Joel Chandler Harris: “The trouble with the term ‘tar baby’ is people associate it with the ‘N-word,’ … During Harris’ time and the ‘20s and ‘30s as well, the Tar Baby is associated with any black person or figure.”

    I hate to say it, but you’re demonstrating an almost Darrell-like ability to ignore information that contradicts your point.

  170. 170.

    Pooh

    May 17, 2006 at 3:55 pm

    This is quite possibly the stupidest thread on this site since I’ve been here. (With the exception of “African-AmericanPonte” which was genius)

    Poop.

    Actually, TOS, if you run (ick) Firefox, then Perry Como has a greasemonkey script for plonking trolls.

    Works like a charm, I might add…

  171. 171.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 3:59 pm

    This is quite possibly the stupidest thread on this site since I’ve been here.

    Uh no, not even close. Not even in the ballpark.

    Cindy Sheehan. I rest my case.

  172. 172.

    Pooh

    May 17, 2006 at 4:02 pm

    Cindy Sheehan. I rest my case.

    I missed the Sheehan stuff by a month or so. Case dismissed, biyatch!

  173. 173.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 4:02 pm

    Doh!

  174. 174.

    LITBMueller

    May 17, 2006 at 4:03 pm

    Darrell, read this article from 2005 concerning the exponential increase in the use of National Security Letters by the FBI:

    The FBI now issues more than 30,000 national security letters a year, according to government sources, a hundredfold increase over historic norms.
    …
    Issued by FBI field supervisors, national security letters do not need the imprimatur of a prosecutor, grand jury or judge. They receive no review after the fact by the Justice Department or Congress. The executive branch maintains only statistics, which are incomplete and confined to classified reports. The Bush administration defeated legislation and a lawsuit to require a public accounting, and has offered no example in which the use of a national security letter helped disrupt a terrorist plot.

    The burgeoning use of national security letters coincides with an unannounced decision to deposit all the information they yield into government data banks — and to share those private records widely, in the federal government and beyond. In late 2003, the Bush administration reversed a long-standing policy requiring agents to destroy their files on innocent American citizens, companies and residents when investigations closed. Late last month, President Bush signed Executive Order 13388, expanding access to those files for “state, local and tribal” governments and for “appropriate private sector entities,” which are not defined.
    …
    A national security letter cannot be used to authorize eavesdropping or to read the contents of e-mail. But it does permit investigators to trace revealing paths through the private affairs of a modern digital citizen. The records it yields describe where a person makes and spends money, with whom he lives and lived before, how much he gambles, what he buys online, what he pawns and borrows, where he travels, how he invests, what he searches for and reads on the Web, and who telephones or e-mails him at home and at work.
    …
    As the Justice Department prepared congressional testimony this year, FBI headquarters searched for examples that would show how expanded surveillance powers made a difference. Michael Mason, who runs the Washington field office and has the rank of assistant FBI director, found no ready answer.

    “I’d love to have a made-for-Hollywood story, but I don’t have one,” Mason said. “I am not even sure such an example exists.”
    …
    “As a conservative,” he [former Congressman Bob Barr] said, “I really resent an administration that calls itself conservative taking the position that the burden is on the citizen to show the government has abused power, and otherwise shut up and comply.”

    I love that line.

    Great article. Read the whole thing.

  175. 175.

    Darrell

    May 17, 2006 at 4:04 pm

    I hate to say it, but you’re demonstrating an almost Darrell-like ability to ignore information that contradicts your point.

    His point was spot on.. that PC freaks whose claims you appear to support, have made it such that you can’t say a number of innocent phrases without being smeared as a racist. Washington ‘Redskins’ is a “racist” insult to native americans, tar baby etc

  176. 176.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 4:07 pm

    May 17, 2006
    SPINNING IMMIGRATION….Matt Yglesias puts poison pen to virtual paper and writes:

    Robert Samuelson earns his bones today as one of those white pundits, employed by white editors, writing for an audience of white people, who has the courage to speak uncomfortable “truths” about how non-white people are bad.
    I gave up reading Samuelson a while ago because his selective misuse of numbers was so bad that it just wasn’t worth the time. His columns aren’t quite in NRO territory, but they’re close.

    In today’s column, he quotes figures that aren’t even related to assimilation to prove that Hispanic immigrants don’t assimilate. But they do. He says that immigrants depress the wages of unskilled natives, which is at best only barely true, and goes on to say that immigrants also have a negative effect on the economy as a whole, which is not true at all. Then he quotes an email to imply that immigrants don’t learn English, which is also untrue.

    Finally, to top it off, he makes the bizarre argument that the real problem is the combination of more immigrants and more old people. But our demographic problems will be worse if we don’t encourage immigration, not better. We’re going to have the same number of old people in 20 years no matter what we do, and an increase in immigration spreads the tax burden of supporting them to a bigger base of people.

    No immigration policy is perfect. If we let in more legal immigrants, they’ll probably exert a small downward effect on unskilled wages. And we probably ought to figure out a better way to teach their kids English, especially since this is such a hot button among some natives. But those are fairly minor problems, really, especially compared to the benefits of a sensible immigration policy: increased wages (legal immigrants are generally paid more than illegals), less worker abuse, less crime, a growing population, and a small but real positive impact on the economy. What’s not to like?

    That’s Kevin Drum at WaMo, and maybe the best blurbs on this topic in recent days. See the original for all the links he embeds to show the sources for his assertions.

  177. 177.

    Pb

    May 17, 2006 at 4:09 pm

    Darrell,

    His point was spot on

    Whoops.

    that PC freaks whose claims you appear to support, have made it such that you can’t say a number of innocent phrases without being smeared as a racist.

    Yeah, well, they should have thought of that before they used ‘tar baby’ the way they did in the 1940’s and before…

  178. 178.

    tBone

    May 17, 2006 at 4:10 pm

    His point was spot on.. that PC freaks whose claims you appear to support, have made it such that you can’t say a number of innocent phrases without being smeared as a racist. Washington ‘Redskins’ is a “racist” insult to native americans, tar baby etc

    I was responding to his claim that “tar baby” didn’t have a racial connotation until “PC ninnies” gave it one. He’s wrong.

    For what it’s worth, I have no use for “PC freaks.” So piss off, Wingnut-American.

  179. 179.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 4:10 pm

    that PC freaks whose claims you appear to support, have made it such that you can’t say a number of innocent phrases

    On that point, you are right.

    But aren’t you just trying to buy cover for your “don’t send your kids camping with queers” gaffe?

    All this time, and we still don’t know whether you actually think it is dangerous to send kids camping with a gay scout leader. Not whether you think other people think so … but whether YOU think so. And either way, yes or no …. why.

    I showed this week that I can answer that question in three short paragraphs in about three minutes. So we know that it can be done.

    What did you say your view was again, and why?

  180. 180.

    John S.

    May 17, 2006 at 4:12 pm

    We have nothing dating back to say 1890 when the Brer Rabbit stories were contemporary showing that the term is negative. I’ve looked, and I simply can find no reference.

    TOS, I provided a quote upthread that said as much:

    According to R. Bruce Bickley Jr., an English professor at Florida State University and biographer of Joel Chandler Harris: “The trouble with the term ‘tar baby’ is people associate it with the ‘N-word,’ … During Harris’ time and the ‘20s and ‘30s as well, the Tar Baby is associated with any black person or figure.”

    Also, according to Florence King, in her book Southern Ladies and Gentlemen, there used to be licorice candies shaped like babies. White people called them “nigger babies” in private and “tar babies” in public.

    I’m sure there are many other examples of the term being used as a racial slur dating back to the nineteenth century, but since you have proclaimed that they don’t exist I’m sure you’ll be reluctant to seek them out.

  181. 181.

    Darrell

    May 17, 2006 at 4:16 pm

    So piss off, Wingnut-American.

    Now that is funny

  182. 182.

    Davebo

    May 17, 2006 at 4:17 pm

    Geez, did I browse to Balloon Juice or am I really seing reruns of The Waltons eat their young???

  183. 183.

    John S.

    May 17, 2006 at 4:17 pm

    His point was spot on.. that PC freaks whose claims you appear to support, have made it such that you can’t say a number of innocent phrases without being smeared as a racist.

    Reading comprehension – it’s not just for the SAT!

    TOS’s point wasn’t even remotely the drivel you just spewed out. Rather, he has been arguing that the negative connotation of the term ‘tar baby’ is a recent fabrication by the PC crowd and that it did not exist during Joel Chandler Harris’ time.

    It had nothing to do with being smeared as a racist.

  184. 184.

    W.B. Reeves

    May 17, 2006 at 4:21 pm

    I’m sure there are many other examples of the term being used as a racial slur dating back to the nineteenth century, but since you have proclaimed that they don’t exist I’m sure you’ll be reluctant to seek them out.

    Not to mention that I was personally aware of it’s derogatory connotation as a child over 40 years ago. Exactly when do you date the onset of the PC tyranny Steve?

  185. 185.

    Darrell

    May 17, 2006 at 4:22 pm

    It had nothing to do with being smeared as a racist.

    No? TOS can speak for himself, but here is what he had to say upthread

    Everybody with any intellect knows that the phrase “Tar Baby” refers to an object in the Brer Rabbit stories by Uncle Remus. To suggest it has any racial overtones only shows you’ve got way too much fucking time on your hands and ought to get a fucking job.

    Your criticism is uncalled for, petty and stupid.

  186. 186.

    Mr Furious

    May 17, 2006 at 4:23 pm

    So piss off, Wingnut-American

    LOL!

    Other Steve, hopefully you can find the comfort you seek in Darrell’s arms (just as long as you’re not camping…).

    And with that, this Ninny-American bids this thread adieu.

  187. 187.

    JWeidner

    May 17, 2006 at 4:25 pm

    The phrase ‘Tar Baby’ did not have a negative connotation until the PC Ninny’s made it up.

    Uh. I’m a bit late to the party, but ToS, I gotta disagree with you. The phrase took on a negative connotation the first time anyone used it to refer to an African American. “PC Ninnys” didn’t suddenly make up the outrage – they only reacted because whites were using the phrase in a derogatory way.

    I’ve lived most of my life in California, and part of it in Illinois. I’ve been aware of the double meaning of the phrase almost as long as I can remember (and I can remember seeing Song of the South in the theater – not the 1946 original release, but still – we’re talking quite a while here). Simply claiming the double meaning doesn’t exist doesn’t make it so.

  188. 188.

    Mr Furious

    May 17, 2006 at 4:27 pm

    Crap. Forgot to close the blockquote…

  189. 189.

    John S.

    May 17, 2006 at 4:27 pm

    Thanks for that quote, Darrell. It just needs some minor modifications:

    To suggest it has any racial overtones only shows you’ve got way too much fucking time on your hands and ought to get a fucking job you understand the origins of the term beyond its inclusion in an Uncle Remus story.

    That’s much better.

  190. 190.

    W.B. Reeves

    May 17, 2006 at 4:28 pm

    Rather, he has been arguing that the negative connotation of the term ‘tar baby’ is a recent fabrication by the PC crowd and that it did not exist during Joel Chandler Harris’ time.

    Excuse me but he claimed that the derogative connotation was created out whole cloth by “PC Freaks”. One need not go back to the 19th century to disprove that contention. Unless, of course, you wish to argue that we’ve labored under a “PC tyranny” since 1900.

  191. 191.

    Darrell

    May 17, 2006 at 4:33 pm

    “PC Ninnys” didn’t suddenly make up the outrage – they only reacted because whites were using the phrase in a derogatory way.

    Yeah, and because some whites may have referred derogatorily to native Americans as “Chiefs”, then Kansas City’s football team has a racist connotation

  192. 192.

    Darrell

    May 17, 2006 at 4:36 pm

    And with that, this Ninny-American bids this thread adieu.

    For the record, Mr. Furious has claimed on a previous BJ thread that by making the phrase “Mexicans make the best margaritas” is in and of itself a racist statement. He (and others here?) actually believes that sort of nonsense.. just as he and others on this thread are bent out of shape over Tony Snow’s innocent use of the phrase ‘tar baby’

  193. 193.

    jg

    May 17, 2006 at 4:37 pm

    Darrell Says:

    “PC Ninnys” didn’t suddenly make up the outrage – they only reacted because whites were using the phrase in a derogatory way.

    Yeah, and because some whites may have referred derogatorily to native Americans as “Chiefs”, then Kansas City’s football team has a racist connotation

    Do you seriously believe this furthers any point you’re making?

  194. 194.

    W.B. Reeves

    May 17, 2006 at 4:39 pm

    Yeah, and because some whites may have referred derogatorily to native Americans as “Chiefs”, then Kansas City’s football team has a racist connotation

    A lot of native Americans would agree. In my own experience it was they and not “PC ninnys” who raised cane over the Atlanta Braves and the Tomahawk chop.

  195. 195.

    John S.

    May 17, 2006 at 5:01 pm

    just as he and others on this thread are bent out of shape over Tony Snow’s innocent use of the phrase ‘tar baby’

    Darrell you ignorant slut.

    NOBODY on this thread is bent out of shape over Tony Snow’s remarks – not even Mr. Furious who brought it up in the first place. The general consensus here has been that Mr. Snow as a seasoned communications veteran should have chosen a less loaded phrase.

    The majority of the “outrage” has been over you and TOS making ridiculous claims (what a surprise!), like that tar baby has no negative racial connotation, other than that cooked up by ‘politically correct’ evildoers.

  196. 196.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 5:22 pm

    NOBODY on this thread is bent out of shape over Tony Snow’s remarks

    Oprah Winfrey called and said that Toni Morrison was really ticked.

    Oh, and also that Darrell is gay.

  197. 197.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 5:39 pm

    Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

  198. 198.

    jg

    May 17, 2006 at 5:42 pm

    Oh, and also that Darrell is gay.

    Was he fired as a scout leader? Is that why he knows what the majority of people think?

  199. 199.

    Otto Man

    May 17, 2006 at 6:14 pm

    Yeah, and because some whites may have referred derogatorily to native Americans as “Chiefs”, then Kansas City’s football team has a racist connotation

    Why can’t they pick an unoffensive name like the Washington Redskins?

  200. 200.

    lard lad

    May 17, 2006 at 6:34 pm

    Where do you live? I’ve never heard this word used in any manner other than to refer to the Brer Rabbit story.

    I’m a bit late to the tar-slangin’ fest, but as a former native Alabaman (until the age of 24), I can attest that the racist connotations of the expression “tar baby” do exist, and have for many years.

    I asked my 73-year-old pappy, who still lives there, and he remembered the word as a slur from his youth. (Probably used it a few times himself, I’m sorry to say.)

    Of course, Tony Snow wasn’t being racist himself… but it sure speaks of carelessness on his part. I don’t think it’s incorrect to say that he stepped in a big ol’ semantical bear trap, and I say that as a fervent lefty with zero tolerance for political correctness.

    Anyhow, maybe this will get folks reading the Uncle Remus stories again, and that’s not a bad thing at all. They’s good.

  201. 201.

    lard lad

    May 17, 2006 at 6:42 pm

    Speaking of big politically incorrect PR disasters, does anyone here remember Sambo’s, the family restaurant chain that had about a thousand locations in the Seventies? Their menus and walls were decorated after the famous/notorious children’s book Little Black Sambo.

    Naturally, Sambo’s was eventually blitzed by a slow-building shitstorm of bad publicity that brought them to their knees. They eventually got bought out by Denny’s, as I recall…

  202. 202.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 6:42 pm

    I’ve lived most of my life in California, and part of it in Illinois. I’ve been aware of the double meaning of the phrase almost as long as I can remember (and I can remember seeing Song of the South in the theater – not the 1946 original release, but still – we’re talking quite a while here). Simply claiming the double meaning doesn’t exist doesn’t make it so.

    I really don’t care how you feel about it. The phrase is not negative, was not used in a negative way, and has no negative connotation in the context being discussed here. So why aren’t we allowed to use it?

    Here’s the problem I have with the fucking PC Ninny’s…

    I, and millions of other of my fellow Americans have been using the phrase “Tar Baby” to refer to a sticky situation for a hundred years.

    The majority of us have never heard of it being used to refer to anybody in a negative way.

    Yet you are all insisting that we are all racists whenever we use this phrase in a non-negative way. How do you think that makes us feel? You’re accusing people of being racist who are not racist.

    Does that make you feel superior? What? What do you gain by it?

    Honestly, this is the most pathetic argument I’ve heard in years. I don’t know where it started, but that poor guy up in St. Cloud who was called a racist this past year because he used the phrase Tar Baby in a non deragatory way during a county meeting… he was a victim.

    This PC Ninny shit has got to stop.

  203. 203.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 6:43 pm

    Jim Carney (Hardball, today): Dems who want to run for president in 2008 don’t want their party to take back the House in 2006. They calculate that the worse mess the GOP has created by then, the better off they are.

    1) I have to kick myself for not seeing this sooner, and wondering why the Bidens and Clintons are not working harder to get a Dem groove going to take the House this year …. and …

    2) I wonder if there are any politicians left who actually put the country ahead of their own fortunes. In either party. Ever. Even for five frigging minutes.

  204. 204.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 6:44 pm

    This PC Ninny shit has got to stop.

    That is so gay.

  205. 205.

    jaime

    May 17, 2006 at 6:44 pm

    I love the wingnuts who vanish into thin air when they are proven dead wrong.

    TOS? Where’d ya go buddy?

    Absence does not equal retraction.

  206. 206.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 6:47 pm

    The majority of the “outrage” has been over you and TOS making ridiculous claims (what a surprise!), like that tar baby has no negative racial connotation, other than that cooked up by ‘politically correct’ evildoers.

    How are they ridiculous? No, I’m sorry. Well over half the people in this thread have maintained the point that the first they ever heard the word was used in a negative way was when the PC Ninny’s brought it up.

    It’s the PC Ninny’s who reinforce this negative crap. They can’t just leave well enough alone, they want to make sure the whole world knows that they are evil, even if they are not.

    This isn’t an argument you have any chance of winning, because your position is entirely negative and pessimistic.

    If a word is not used in a negative way, what’s your fucking beef with it?

  207. 207.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 6:48 pm

    Absence does not equal retraction.

    If you are Darrell, absence equals refutation.

  208. 208.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 6:49 pm

    If a word is not used in a negative way, what’s your fucking beef chocolate with it?

    Fixed.

  209. 209.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 6:52 pm

    I love the wingnuts who vanish into thin air when they are proven dead wrong.

    TOS? Where’d ya go buddy?

    Two things:

    – I’ve got a fucking life. I don’t sit around all day like ppGaz waiting by the computer to troll blogs.

    – Calling me a wingnut has got to be the stupidest thing yet said in this thread.

  210. 210.

    DougJ

    May 17, 2006 at 6:56 pm

    Dems who want to run for president in 2008 don’t want their party to take back the House in 2006. They calculate that the worse mess the GOP has created by then, the better off they are.

    I’m sure that’s true of Biden and Hillary. I think it’s not necessarily true of Mark Warner, Wes Clark, and the others. If the Dems win in November, under the leadership of a more nets-friendly, grassroots-oriented DNC, it will be a slap in the face to the DLC crowd. That’s got to help everyone who isn’t Joe Biden or Hillary Clinton.

    God only knows what shape we’ll be in in two years. I’m with Kevin Phillips (per his new Huffpost piece) — we need to get rid of BushCheney and replace it with a functioning presidency, say James Baker and Bob Dole (I’d prefer Chuck Hagel and Jack Kemp) so the country doesn’t run into the ground over the next few years. Once the investigations start under a Democratic congress, I think it is only a matter of time until something like that happens.

    And, in my opinion, that would be the best political outcome for Republicans. And the Republicans deserve worst. But the good of the country comes first, even before the punishment of the Rubberstamp Republicans.

  211. 211.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 6:56 pm

    Sheesh, what have you got against Beef?

    Not only do we have to deal with the PC Ninny’s, but now we’ve got angry vegetarians too?

  212. 212.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 6:57 pm

    I don’t sit around all day like ppGaz waiting by the computer to troll blogs.

    I am surrounded by computers all day, Steve. They just seem to want to come and sit by me.

    If you were nicer to them, maybe they’d like you better?

    Now enough of your crass racist remarks. If I weren’t black, you wouldn’t pull that shit with me.

    Take your white Honky ass outta here.

  213. 213.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 6:58 pm

    I dunno … which is more racist?

    White chocolate, or dark chocolate?

  214. 214.

    Krista

    May 17, 2006 at 6:58 pm

    Yet you are all insisting that we are all racists whenever we use this phrase in a non-negative way. How do you think that makes us feel? You’re accusing people of being racist who are not racist.

    Might as well wade on in…

    TOS, from the comments that I’ve seen here, it seems to me that most of the people here are not saying that using the phrase makes one racist. They are saying that the phrase can and does have negative connotations for many people, and that if one is a public figure or a spokesthingie, one should know better than to use phrases like that, even if the intent is not to be racist.

    As well, for people who are NOT public figures or spokesthingies, I think it is worthwhile to know that a certain phrase could be considered offensive. We shouldn’t be completely ignorant of the effects that our words may have on others. It’s not being controlled by political correctness — it’s just knowing the situation, and if one still chooses to use certain phrases, that’s their prerogative. But they should at least know what some people might make of their turn of phrase. If I were using a term or phrase that was completely innocuous up here, but was deeply offensive in the U.S., I would hope that someone would be kind enough to let me know before I make a complete jackass out of myself.

    For what it’s worth, I don’t think Snow was being racist. I do, however, think he was being a piss-poor mouthpiece, because he used terminology that detracts from his message.

  215. 215.

    DougJ

    May 17, 2006 at 7:03 pm

    I feel like I’m on an episode of the Real World here, what with everyone calling each other a racist. I guess I should be grateful none of you are “hooking up”.

  216. 216.

    JWeidner

    May 17, 2006 at 7:05 pm

    First of all ToS, I’m not calling you or anyone else racist. Please point out in my post where I do so.

    What I’m debating (or rather, attempting to debate) is your point that there’s no negative connotation (and has never been) to the phrase “tar baby”. There quite clearly has been, for longer than you or I have been alive. You saying there isn’t doesn’t make it so.

    You obviously are so damned oblivious to the negative connotation of “tar baby” that it has turned slightly ridiculous. And attacking me personally over your own pent up feelings on political correctness isn’t really going to help your case at all.

    I’m merely pointing out that no matter what you or Darrell say, you CAN NOT claim that there has never been a racist aspect to the phrase. If African Americans get offended at the usage, it is because there is a legitimate reason for that.

    To put it another way, would you walk into a conference hall full of African Americans and use the phrase “tar baby”, even in its correct context? If so, I feel for you, I have a feeling you would have a tough time walking out of that hall in one piece. If not, then maybe you really DO understand the problems that the phrase creates.

  217. 217.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 7:06 pm

    For what it’s worth, I don’t think Snow was being racist. I do, however, think he was being a piss-poor mouthpiece, because he used terminology that detracts from his message.

    I think that’s a reasonable view. But in the world of Snarkapalooza, where all is politics and politics is truth, where “sending messages” is taken seriously instead of hysterically laughed off the stage, where everything is a message to somebody else and you, the sender, are responsible for any message somebody else says you sent, then ….. what must we say about Snow? Or Bennett? Or for that matter, Cole? Or anyone?

    Here we are amongst correspondents who will argue with a straight face that doing a practical, sensible thing like creating a path to legal status for people who live in this country and pay taxes and take care of their families is wrong because it sends a wrong message.

    Do you see the wonderfulness of it? Doing something good is bad if it sends a bad message. Good becomes bad, and votes can be carved up!

  218. 218.

    DougJ

    May 17, 2006 at 7:07 pm

    Isn’t “Snow” a racist name, when you really get right down to it? Couldn’t he change it to a more color neutral name?

  219. 219.

    Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 7:11 pm

    Who are the people in this thread who say that you’re racist if you say “tar baby,” even if you have no idea about the racial connotation? There’s a lot of comments so please, just help me find who those people are.

  220. 220.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 7:12 pm

    TOS, from the comments that I’ve seen here, it seems to me that most of the people here are not saying that using the phrase makes one racist. They are saying that the phrase can and does have negative connotations for many people, and that if one is a public figure or a spokesthingie, one should know better than to use phrases like that, even if the intent is not to be racist.

    I think you’re all missing the point.

    I don’t care.

    If I’m not using the phrase in a negative way, and Tony Snow isn’t, and most of America isn’t. The phrase isn’t negative. If you want to be offended, because you’re looking for a reason to be offended, that’s not my problem.

  221. 221.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 7:14 pm

    Who are the people in this thread who say that you’re racist if you say “tar baby,” even if you have no idea about the racial connotation? There’s a lot of comments so please, just help me find who those people are.

    About every other post. They’re the ones who make the argument you shouldn’t use the word because someone might be offended by it.

  222. 222.

    Perry Como

    May 17, 2006 at 7:15 pm

    He could change it to Tony Blow, but that would be too descriptive and offensive to Colombian-Americans.

  223. 223.

    DougJ

    May 17, 2006 at 7:19 pm

    Tony Blow would be a great name. If the White House hired Quentin Tarantion to oversee operations (which might not be a bad idea at this point), that’s the name he’d give the press sec.

    Or maybe he’d turn the job over to Sam Jackson: “Did I not say I will not comment during an impending investigation, motherfuckers? Next question. You, Ringo, shoot.”

  224. 224.

    demimondian

    May 17, 2006 at 7:20 pm

    Wow! A man goes to work, and comes back to find 220 posts about who said what to whom, and whether they should be offended.

    Hey, DougJ — we need snark here. Serious snark. Where’s today best SampleOfRealWingnuttiGoodness(TM)? (No, ppG, ToS doesn’t count. Neither do you. Good try, though.)

  225. 225.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 7:20 pm

    you shouldn’t use the word because someone might be offended by it.

    What about the Darrell Rule, which says that you can say anything as long as Most People* agree with it?

    *Most People may, in fact, mean “two of Darrell’s neighbors” but we aren’t sure.

  226. 226.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 7:22 pm

    Not even a raised eyebrow about my revelation that I’m black?

    Wow, this is a cynical crowd.

  227. 227.

    Krista

    May 17, 2006 at 7:22 pm

    Isn’t “Snow” a racist name, when you really get right down to it? Couldn’t he change it to a more color neutral name?

    It IS neutral. I’ve seen white, gray, brown and yellow snow. I’ve even seen snow that’s a bit reddish, if there’s enough clay content in the surrounding dirt. It’s the “Tony” that strikes me as not being inclusive. “Toe” – “knee” — is the White House spokesthingie biased against those with lower-limb amputations? Hmmm?

  228. 228.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 7:23 pm

    For what it’s worth, I don’t think Snow was being racist. I do, however, think he was being a piss-poor mouthpiece, because he used terminology that detracts from his message.

    It may have been planned. This thing with the county commissioner using the phrase occured only a few months ago. So it’s fairly fresh in the news.

    Tony Snow most likely made the comment intetionally, which is why he did it twice… specifically to set off the PC Ninny brigade. Because the PC Ninny’s being their usual narcisistic selves are sure to make a big deal about it… exactly as you say, distracting from the issues at hand and changing the topic…

    It’s about the 10% of the population who are PC Ninny’s, and the remaining 90% smacking their foreheads and shouting “OH SHUT UP ALREADY!”.

    It’s part of an electoral strategy. The Republicans know how to set off Democrats and make them look like fools. In other words, they know how to get Dems to kick the tar baby.

  229. 229.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 7:29 pm

    Jim Carney (Hardball, today): Dems who want to run for president in 2008 don’t want their party to take back the House in 2006. They calculate that the worse mess the GOP has created by then, the better off they are.

    Are these the Republican talking points of the day?

    And it’s incredible how willingly Democrats are willing to pick them up and run with them.

  230. 230.

    Perry Como

    May 17, 2006 at 7:31 pm

    turn the job over to Sam Jackson

    “Get these motherfuckin’ leaks out about this motherfuckin’ Plame.”

  231. 231.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 7:31 pm

    First of all ToS, I’m not calling you or anyone else racist.

    All right then. Then we really have no argument here.

    I assume this means you think there is nothing wrong with the phrase ‘tar baby’ as used in the context Tony Snow used it, and we can all continue to happily use the phrase.

  232. 232.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 7:32 pm

    Who’s the ignorant slut who scoffed when I said Arizona was Ground Zero in the illegal immigration war?

  233. 233.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 7:33 pm

    I assume this means you think there is nothing wrong with the phrase ‘tar baby’ as used in the context Tony Snow used it, and we can all continue to happily use the phrase.

    Kiss my black bottom, you tar baby.

  234. 234.

    DougJ

    May 17, 2006 at 7:33 pm

    Here’s my favorite right-wing nuttiness of the day — from Instapundit (he didn’t write it but he linked to it).

    The Roman Legion was organized to fight in lines, averaging maybe 6 to 8 men deep. In battle the man at the front would fight for about 8 minutes, then move to the back of the line and the person behind him would take his place at the front. After another interval he too would then move to the back and the person behind him would take the front position. Organized in this way each man fought for about 8 minutes out of every 48 to 64. The enemies of the Romans often succomed to fatigue long before the Legionaires did.
    It’s ok to get fatigued, and it’s ok to take a step back. There is a person behind you who will fill the gap. And when you are refreshed you can rejoin the battle.

    Why is this such a great quote? He’s talking about blogging.

  235. 235.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 7:36 pm

    Frostbite Falls, Minnesota is Ground Zero in the illegal Canadian immigration war

  236. 236.

    Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 7:39 pm

    About every other post. They’re the ones who make the argument you shouldn’t use the word because someone might be offended by it.

    Uh, that’s completely different from saying that you’re racist if you use the word, but thanks!

  237. 237.

    Krista

    May 17, 2006 at 7:43 pm

    TOS

    On Tuesday nights in the winter, dozens of International Falls curlers cross the border to the area’s only curling rink in Fort Frances.

    Can’t blame them. Fine sport, that.

  238. 238.

    Perry Como

    May 17, 2006 at 7:44 pm

    Why is this such a great quote? He’s talking about blogging.

    I’m still up in the air on which one is funnier, so maybe we should do a poll:

    1) 101st Fighting Keayboardists
    2) 82nd Chairborne

    I’m leaning towards #2.

  239. 239.

    Tulkinghorn

    May 17, 2006 at 7:49 pm

    If a spokesman must be niggardly in his use of idioms, did not Snow’s use of ‘tar baby’ effectively have him thrown into the briar patch, his being born and bread in said briar patch?

    This is to say that anytime Snow can create a kerfuffle that detracts from the absurd and pernicious nonsense coming out of the White House he is doing his job quite well. His job is not to communicate, but to obfuscate, and to protect the president.

  240. 240.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 7:49 pm

    82nd Chairborne, clearly.

  241. 241.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 7:50 pm

    Uh, that’s completely different from saying that you’re racist if you use the word, but thanks!

    I hope so, for it means my foes have conceded the argument and I win.

  242. 242.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 7:51 pm

    Tulkinghorn – Post of the Day!

    Now I must go install my new WinTV card in my Windows Media PC and see if it works.

  243. 243.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 8:03 pm

    Frostbite Falls, Minnesota is Ground Zero in the illegal Canadian immigration war

    Ms. Mason, Mayor of International Falls, is quite the attractive woman.

    Would she call I.F. a White Chocolate City, do you think?

  244. 244.

    demimondian

    May 17, 2006 at 8:06 pm

    Me, I’m thinking that “White Christmas” should be renamed “European-American-appearing Christmas”, just to mess with the ordinaries.

    By the way, I’m voting for the 82nd Chairborne. I have this image of Hindrocket being carried around in a sedan chair…

  245. 245.

    jg

    May 17, 2006 at 8:13 pm

    It’s about the 10% of the population who are PC Ninny’s, and the remaining 90% smacking their foreheads and shouting “OH SHUT UP ALREADY!”.

    I bet 88.3% of the commenters here would say you’re making up numbers.

    TOS honestly if you don’t think tar baby is a polite way of saying nigger I don’t know what to say. Just as a swatika can no longer be seen as anything but a nazi symbol the actual meaning of the term tar baby is no longer relevant. Pesonally I think Snow said it to piss off the PC crowd. To look like a hero in the eyes of some for standing up for real american vocabulary skills.

  246. 246.

    Pooh

    May 17, 2006 at 8:15 pm

    Why is this such a great quote? He’s talking about blogging

    (As I channel Allen Iverson)

    I’m supposed to be the soldier, and we’re in here talking about blogging. I mean listen, we’re talking about blogging. Not a war . . . We’re talking about blogging. Not a battle . . . that I go out there and die for, and fight every battle like it’s my last. Not the war. We’re talking about blogging, man. I mean, how silly is that? We’re talking about blogging. I know I’m supposed to be there. I know I’m supposed to lead by example . . . I know it’s important . . . I honestly do. But we’re talking about blogging, man. What are we talking about? blogging? We’re talking about blogging, man . . . We’re talking about blogging. We’re talking about blogging. We ain’t talking about the war, we’re talking about blogging, man. When you come into the Middle East, and you see me fight . . . you see me give everything I got, right? But we’re talking about blogging right now. We’re talking about blogging . . . We’re not even talking about the war, the actual battles, when it matters. We’re talking about blogging.

  247. 247.

    demimondian

    May 17, 2006 at 8:30 pm

    I see a crowd of rightwingnut bloggers forming the square, chanting “Gladii, vaginae, puellae pulchae…Gladii, vaginae, puellae pulchrae” in order to show off their mastery of Latin.

  248. 248.

    Punchy

    May 17, 2006 at 8:45 pm

    82nd Chairborne, clearly.

    Brilliant. I’m gunna steal that, with your permission. Or without. I’m a box turtle, or at least I allude them on occasion.

  249. 249.

    tBone

    May 17, 2006 at 9:22 pm

    Yet you are all insisting that we are all racists whenever we use this phrase in a non-negative way. How do you think that makes us feel? You’re accusing people of being racist who are not racist.

    I’ve never seen a strawman riding a jackalope before. Nice work, ToS.

    I guess I should be grateful none of you are “hooking up”.

    I dunno . . . I saw Darrell and ppGaz buying camping supplies at WalMart.

  250. 250.

    Mr Furious

    May 17, 2006 at 9:33 pm

    The Other Steve says:

    It may have been planned. This thing with the county commissioner using the phrase occured only a few months ago. So it’s fairly fresh in the news.

    Tony Snow most likely made the comment intetionally, which is why he did it twice… specifically to set off the PC Ninny brigade…

    Really Steve? Did you come up with that one all by yourself? And it only took you ten hours and 240+ comments? Because I think someone said pretty much the same thing in the first post of the thread:

    This usage strikes me as a deliberate use of a politically incorrect phrase in a situation where the speaker can then defend himself for being correct, innocent, and beyond reproach, while accusing his attackers of being “overly politically correct.” It’s not really about race, it’s about scoring points on “sensitive” liberals and others that will be tweaked by this. Limbaugh has made a nice living doing exactly this.

    Gee and that also neatly clears up your accusation of me smearing people as racists too.

    it means my foes have conceded the argument and I win.

    Not so sure about that one.

  251. 251.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 9:46 pm

    I saw Darrell and ppGaz buying camping supplies at WalMart.

    NOT THAT THERE’S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT!

  252. 252.

    Punchy

    May 17, 2006 at 9:52 pm

    This can’t be good. Wow. If they’re this high-strung that they’re now capping children….wow-zers…

    And this admission:

    Military officials told NBC News that the Marine Corps’ own evidence appears to show Murtha is right.

    How fast until the military does an about-face on this comment? I’m guessing sometime tomorrow, 8 am or so…right after that evidence is suddenly “lost” and/or “classified”…

  253. 253.

    demimondian

    May 17, 2006 at 10:00 pm

    Hey, this president has made “no child left behind” a policy goal. What did you *think* he meant by it?

  254. 254.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 10:13 pm

    Hey, this president has made “no child left behind” a policy goal. What did you think he meant by it?

    Great snark. But somehow, on this story, I ain’t laughing.

    I hope the story is wrong.

  255. 255.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 10:27 pm

    TOS honestly if you don’t think tar baby is a polite way of saying nigger I don’t know what to say.

    Yeah, that’s what I’ve been saying.

    *smacks forhead*

  256. 256.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 10:29 pm

    Really Steve? Did you come up with that one all by yourself? And it only took you ten hours and 240+ comments? Because I think someone said pretty much the same thing in the first post of the thread:

    ten hours and 240 comments proving the point.

    You’re welcome.

  257. 257.

    The Other Steve

    May 17, 2006 at 10:31 pm

    Punchy,

    How fast until the military does an about-face on this comment? I’m guessing sometime tomorrow, 8 am or so…right after that evidence is suddenly “lost” and/or “classified”…

    This is clearly Murtha’s fault for bringing this to the attention of the public. This was a private Marine Corps matter, and if he’d had any courage he would have kept his mouth shut.

  258. 258.

    Mr Furious

    May 17, 2006 at 10:32 pm

    Ah, touché. It was fun while it lasted, eh?

  259. 259.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 10:52 pm

    Just another day at the BJ office, fellas.

    Grab your lunch pail, and go home.

  260. 260.

    Ancient Purple

    May 17, 2006 at 10:56 pm

    Just another day at the BJ office, fellas.

    Grab your lunch pail, and go home.

    But… but… but…

    What about the prison shower scene?????

  261. 261.

    Pb

    May 17, 2006 at 10:59 pm

    The Other Steve,

    I really don’t care how you feel about it. The phrase is not negative, was not used in a negative way, and has no negative connotation in the context being discussed here. So why aren’t we allowed to use it?

    Beats me, nigga.

    The majority of us have never heard of it being used to refer to anybody in a negative way.

    Whereas, a minority has heard it used to refer to them in a negative way. But hey, there’s no reason why you would necessarily be expected to know that–until now, that is. Then again, you aren’t the White House Press Secretary, and you weren’t addressing the entire nation, and therefore you can afford to be a bit less concerned about it.

    Yet you are all insisting that we are all racists whenever we use this phrase in a non-negative way. How do you think that makes us feel? You’re accusing people of being racist who are not racist.

    Aha, it sounds like you feel that you are being faced with the horribly oppressive problem of White Guilt (even if no one here is actually facing you with it). Good luck with that!

  262. 262.

    demimondian

    May 17, 2006 at 11:09 pm

    Sorry, errr…age-enhanced one whose color may not be mentioned, in these PC days, no shower scenes tonight.

  263. 263.

    ppGaz

    May 17, 2006 at 11:09 pm

    What about the prison shower scene?????

    Are there women in it? I’m there ….

  264. 264.

    demimondian

    May 17, 2006 at 11:11 pm

    Oh, venerable one whose color may not be mentioned, but who is of a shade like that of the lavender flower…sorry, dude, no shower scenes tonight.

  265. 265.

    Ancient Purple

    May 17, 2006 at 11:41 pm

    sorry, dude, no shower scenes tonight.

    I will settle for male, female or mixed. Don’t care at this point.

  266. 266.

    The Disenfranchised Voter

    May 18, 2006 at 3:18 am

    LOL.

    The end is near. Like Tim pointed out…

    The Republicans have ass-fucked themselves this race. Ha!

  267. 267.

    SortaLikeJake

    May 18, 2006 at 3:57 am

    Snow most likely didn’t mean any harm using “tar baby”, but that just goes to show you who his audience was. I’m almost fairly certain that had his audience been a group of african-americans he would have had…problems. I’ve learned that tar baby was negative ever since I was called one, among other names. You almost have to be living under a rock or in an area not populated with many black people to not know that. Don’t believe that it’s really that bad? Go to, just for example, a black church and use “tar baby” in any sentence, no matter how innocuous, and report back with the observed reactions.

  268. 268.

    John S.

    May 18, 2006 at 6:10 am

    I really don’t care how you feel about it. The phrase is not negative, was not used in a negative way, and has no negative connotation in the context being discussed here.

    You’re a fucking twit, TOS.

    The phrase does have negative connotation, though Snow did not use it in that manner.

    Snow somehow being a racist is a red herring. Nobody thinks that, and nobody has seriously put forth that argument from what I’ve seen here. Your refusal to grasp that concept is almost as annoying as your obtuseness regarding the origin of the term as an ethnic slur and the almost universal understanding of it as thus.

    Tell you what, next time you’re out on the street and walk past a group of African Americans say in an audible volume, “Man, my job has been a disaster – like putting my fist in a tar baby!” and see what happens. I’m sure they’ll beat you less severely once you explain to that that PC ninnies made up the whole thing and that you were merely referring to Uncle Remus.

    I’ll be sure to look for your post about the incident after you can type again.

  269. 269.

    Sherard

    May 18, 2006 at 6:31 am

    Pathetic and predictable. As usual. Holy Christ, they’re bashing innocent people over the head with the PATRIOT ACT!!!! Run for your lives. The “National Security” part of the NSL is meaningless, get out now while you still can.

    Right. So finding the sources of CIA leaks doesn’t involve National Security?? That’s just laughably stupid.

  270. 270.

    Lee

    May 18, 2006 at 7:13 am

    I think Crooks and Liars got either hacked or its DNS entry got screwed up.

    Check out the new site lol

    Crooks and Liars

  271. 271.

    CT Yankee

    May 18, 2006 at 8:03 am

    I, and millions of other of my fellow Americans have been using the phrase “Tar Baby” to refer to a sticky situation for a hundred years.

    I’m 46 years old, born and raised in southern New England. I have never once heard someone use the word “tar baby” to refer to a “sticky situation”. Actually never heard “tar baby” used at all for anything. But then again I did not live, nor do I live, in the fantasy world of the Other Steve or Darrell.

  272. 272.

    DougJ

    May 18, 2006 at 8:43 am

    You’re me, aren’t you Sherad? Well, you’re not fooling anyone.

  273. 273.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 8:48 am

    MSNBC

    WASHINGTON – A Pentagon probe into the death of Iraqi civilians last November in the Iraqi city of Haditha will show that U.S. Marines “killed innocent civilians in cold blood,” a U.S. lawmaker said Wednesday.

    From the beginning, Iraqis in the town of Haditha said U.S. Marines deliberately killed 15 unarmed Iraqi civilians, including seven women and three children.

    One young Iraqi girl said the Marines killed six members of her family, including her parents. “The Americans came into the room where my father was praying,” she said, “and shot him.”

    Murtha, a vocal opponent of the war in Iraq, said at a news conference Wednesday that sources within the military have told him that an internal investigation will show that “there was no firefight, there was no IED (improvised explosive device) that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood.”

    Military officials say Marine Corp photos taken immediately after the incident show many of the victims were shot at close range, in the head and chest, execution-style. One photo shows a mother and young child bent over on the floor as if in prayer, shot dead, said the officials, who spoke to NBC News on condition of anonymity because the investigation hasn’t been completed.

    One military official says it appears the civilians were deliberately killed by the Marines, who were outraged at the death of their fellow Marine.

    “This one is ugly,” one official told NBC News.

    Three Marine officers — commanders in Haditha — have been relieved of duty, and at least 12 Marines in all are under investigation for what would be the worst single incident involving the deliberate killing of civilians by U.S. military in Iraq.

  274. 274.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 9:03 am

    Reuters

    Even if the Iraqi Kurds are ‘fabricating’ these stories, it is still an indication of heightened tensions in the Kurdish regions of Iraq, Iran, and Turkey. Still an undiscussed and ignored aspect of this war.

    SULAIMANIYA, Iraq, May 17 (Reuters) – The government of Iraq’s autonomous Kurdistan region accused Turkish forces of shelling an area inside northern Iraq on Wednesday.

    A Turkish government official dismissed the accusation as “total fabrication.”

    Ankara traditionally launches a spring offensive against Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) guerrillas in southeastern Turkey, an area which borders Iraq.

    Earlier this month, villagers in Iraq’s Kurdistan accused neighbouring Iran of hitting targets inside Iraq, a charge Tehran denied.

    Khaled Salih, a senior official of the Kurdish regional government in Arbil, said by telephone that no one was hurt when three shells slammed into a mountainous area close to the town of Kani Masi a few km (miles) inside Iraq.

    “A village … has been bombarded from the Turkish side. There were no casualties, but there was material damage,” Salih told Reuters. “This is the second time in a week villages have been bombarded in the north.”

    “We will report this to the government in Baghdad so that they can contact the Turkish government and ask for an explanation,” he said.

    Salih said there were no PKK fighters in the area where the shells landed. NATO member Turkey has stationed some 1,500 troops stationed inside northern Iraq since the late 1990s when it launched regular raids into the region to hunt PKK fighters.

    In Turkey, a government official told Reuters: “This is not true … All the measures are on our side of the border.”

    Turkey has sent 40,000 troops to its own Kurdish areas to reinforce the 220,000 already there, the biggest build-up in years after an increase in PKK attacks.

    The PKK, seeking a Kurdish homeland including southeastern Turkey, accuses Ankara and Tehran of mounting coordinated operations against the group and its Iranian wing, PJAK.

  275. 275.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 9:10 am

    Juan Cole on the peaceful South:

    Al-Zaman reports that [Ar.] hundreds of Iraqis are fleeing Basra for Baghdad every day because security is even worse in the southern port city than in the capital. The armed gangs that dominate the city are also interfering with oil exports. The paper’s sources say that thousands of Iraqis once resident in Basra are living with relatives in Baghdad, waiting for the security situation to improve in the southern port city. Wealthier Basrawis, fearful of being assassinated or kidnapped by the gangs, have come up to Baghdad and rented homes for their families.

    Death squads are responsible for the 700 to 800 assassinations during the past month in Basra. President Jalal Talabani has asked Vice President Adil Abdul Mahdi (SCIRI) to take over the security file for Basra. Local police are helpless, the report says, in the face of tribal fueding and the sinister role played by the intelligence services of neighboring countries. Attempts had been made to mediate between the warring parties, by the representatives of Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani and other great clergymen and merchants, but those have come to nothing and a new framework is needed. The oil port is being guarded by patrols of the mainly British multinational force. The militiamen and armed gaings have begun setting up temporary checkpoints on most streets of Basra to check on the identitity of passers-by and the passengers in automobiles.

  276. 276.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 9:59 am

    CODENAME THINTHREAD….I don’t really know what to think of this. Siobhan Gorman has a lengthy story in the Baltimore Sun today about an NSA program called ThinThread that got killed sometime around 2001. It was similar to the call monitoring program that USA Today disclosed last week, but the idea was to make it scrupulously legal by encrypting all the phone number data before it got to analysts. They’d run their software on the encrypted data, and only if they found something worth following up would they get a warrant to decrypt the data. This supposedly ensured the privacy of the data they collected.

    So what happened? According to “four intelligence officials knowledgeable about the program,” it was abandoned in favor of Trailblazer, a program that was a favorite of NSA chief Michael Hayden:

    NSA managers did not want to adopt the data-sifting component of ThinThread out of fear that the Trailblazer program would be outperformed and “humiliated,” an intelligence official said.

    Without ThinThread’s data-sifting assets, the warrantless surveillance program was left with a sub-par tool for sniffing out information, and that has diminished the quality of its analysis, according to intelligence officials.

    Sources say the NSA’s existing system for data-sorting has produced a database clogged with corrupted and useless information.

    The story here is that (a) ThinThread was awesome but was killed in favor of Trailblazer, (b) Trailblazer was eventually killed too, (c) a similar program was put in place after 9/11, but without the privacy safeguards, and (d) the new program doesn’t work worth a damn.

    Is this true? Beats me. I do know that you haven’t seen a bureaucratic war until you’ve seen rival teams of programmers badmouthing each other’s projects, and that may be what’s going on here. Or, we may have a program that’s both illegal and crappy because nobody wanted to make the boss’s pet project look bad.

    Kevin Drum, Washington Monthly.

  277. 277.

    The Other Steve

    May 18, 2006 at 10:04 am

    You’re a fucking twit, TOS.

    The phrase does have negative connotation, though Snow did not use it in that manner.

    Then it is not negative. And don’t call me a fucking twit when you are the one acting obtusely.

    This discussion was over last night. Not a single person agreed that Snow meant the term in any negative way. You all agreed that there was nothing racist intended, implied, or even perceived. In fact not a single person actually found any offense to the term.

    So there’s no problem here.

    That is, unless you are a stupid PC Ninny who wants to control other people, in which case I have absolutely no respect for your argument and you can shut your fucking pie hole.

  278. 278.

    The Other Steve

    May 18, 2006 at 10:09 am

    I’ve listened a bit to the Hayden hearings, and some of the discussion outside. Honestly, I’m somewhat heartened.

    Hayden appears to be a career professional, and not just another partisan hack. This may be a first for Bushie, but I think his appointment will be a real improvement for the CIA.

    This is not to discount the concern about NSA call databases, etc. But I expect our spooks to want to push the boundaries of the laws. That’s why we have Congressional oversight to keep the whole process in check.

  279. 279.

    Pb

    May 18, 2006 at 10:10 am

    Also from the Baltimore Sun story:

    Once President Bush gave the go-ahead for the NSA to secretly gather and analyze domestic phone records — an authorization that carried no stipulations about identity protection — agency officials regarded the encryption as an unnecessary step and rejected it, according to two intelligence officials knowledgeable about ThinThread and the warrantless surveillance programs.

    “They basically just disabled the [privacy] safeguards,” said one intelligence official.

  280. 280.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 10:10 am

    I am not trying to make an overly emotional argument about the apparent murder of Iraqi citizens by Marines. I am not blaming it on Bush or Rumsfeld. Personally, I would expect this to happen. It is war, and in war, these things happen. That doesn’t excuse the acts in any way. It is just predictable and unavoidable.
    If the Koran story and the Mohammed cartoons caused demonstrations across the ME, what will be the result of this. The details are disturbing. Women and children. Men executed as they prayed. Close range shots to the head and chest.
    I don’t believe I am jumping the gun here. Murtha loves the Marines. He would not be making this story public if it wasn’t true, would he? The military, even though the sources are anonymous, seem to be backing it up. It appears that they were looking for the best way to release this story, and they came up with Murtha.
    I haven’t seen many stories and zero follow up. Am I wrong, or is this the biggest story to appear in quite some time. This is worse than Abu Ghraib, isn’t it?

  281. 281.

    Pb

    May 18, 2006 at 10:11 am

    The Other Steve,

    That’s why we have Congressional oversight to keep the whole process in check.

    That was snark, right?

  282. 282.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 10:18 am

    Hayden appears to be a career professional, and not just another partisan hack. This may be a first for Bushie, but I think his appointment will be a real improvement for the CIA.

    Agreed. He seems to be respected by both parties and, more importantly, by intel pros. Obviously this is an unqualified opinion: Kappes seems to be the right guy at the right time in the right position. That indicates to me that the administration has realized their mistakes with Goss, and are actively trying to restore some order to the CIA, instead of punish the agency. Grown up government is a good thing.
    Of course, the NSA spy stories bother me. I am willing to overlook them in Hayden’s case. He can’t answer questions about them this week, since they are classified. They probably shouldn’t be, but they are. So, we can’t base his confirmation on his answers about these programs.

  283. 283.

    Pb

    May 18, 2006 at 10:27 am

    Gratefulcub,

    Of course, the NSA spy stories bother me. I am willing to overlook them in Hayden’s case.

    I’m not.

    He can’t answer questions about them this week, since they are classified.

    No, he can, but only in closed session.

    So, we can’t base his confirmation on his answers about these programs.

    We can’t, but as far as I’m concerned, he’s said enough. Wake me up when he figures out what The Fourth Amendment actually says.

  284. 284.

    Punchy

    May 18, 2006 at 10:27 am

    Of course, the NSA spy stories bother me. I am willing to overlook them in Hayden’s case. He can’t answer questions about them this week, since they are classified.

    They’re so classified that the USAToday ran a whole story about them. The entire country knows about them, but shhhhh! we don’t want the tarr-rists to know!

    And nobody, to my recollection, has answered this question: who’s his boss? If he stays military, isn’t it Rumsfeld? Or is it Negroponte? Is it both? Which one MUST he take orders from? Which one can he ignore?

  285. 285.

    John S.

    May 18, 2006 at 10:27 am

    Then it is not negative. And don’t call me a fucking twit when you are the one acting obtusely.

    You are a fucking twit. This latest rant further proves it. I never said that the way SNOW used it was negative. But you have been maintaining that it has no negative meaning WHATSOEVER. And you are a wrong.

    That is, unless you are a stupid PC Ninny who wants to control other people, in which case I have absolutely no respect for your argument and you can shut your fucking pie hole.

    Spoken like a true twit. You have been bleating that ‘tar baby’ isn’t negative AT ALL – regardless of Snow’s usage. You then tried to claim that because you had never heard it used negatively, it must not have a negative connotation. Then you claimed that PC ninnies were responsible for giving it one. It’s not even an issue of control, it’s a matter of respect for others and adhering to facts of the matter – neither of which you seem capable of doing.

    Everything you have said on the subject is utter bullshit, and driven by your stupendous ignorance. I could give a shit if someone as uninformed as you respects my argument. If anything, I take your disdain for me as a compliment.

  286. 286.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 10:28 am

    This is worse than Abu Ghraib, isn’t it?

    I think in terms of its usefulness to our enemies in the Middle East, they’re about the same.

    It is war, and in war, these things happen. That doesn’t excuse the acts in any way. It is just predictable and unavoidable

    .

    That’s true. It’s also one of the reasons why some of us have been so dead set against the war in the first place. War is a tsunami of shit, and that’s why you don’t start one for anything less than the most compelling reasons … such as a clear and present unambiguous threat to this country. And the reason why you don’t try to fuck with that imperative is that the trust between government and citizens rests on assumptions that things like starting a war won’t be screwed around with by the government for its own purposes. See, I don’t CARE about the reasons and purposes the potatoheads had in mind. I only care about the iron-clad certainty I used to have that we’d not start a war unless it was the only way to prevent real and immediate danger to this country. Thanks to these assholes, we can’t assume that any more.

  287. 287.

    Steve

    May 18, 2006 at 10:41 am

    These allegations concerning the murder of Iraqi civilians are just terrible. All I can say is that we owe it to the Iraqis, as well as to our own American ideals, to investigate this in an appropriate manner and to give those responsible a fair trial. Despite those people who think that the only villains in the world are those who publicize bad news, the fact is that you don’t win any hearts and minds with a cover-up.

    I’ve seen this movie before and I know how rapidly it will devolve into an argument over (1) whether the liberals discussing this story are using appropriate language or whether they just “hate the troops”; and (2) whether war opponents are being silly to say that Bush and Rumsfeld have some responsibility for the bad things that occur when you send troops off to war.

    I don’t think it’s helpful to have the “is Bush to blame” discussion. I do think this incident further exposes the wrongness of the neocon position, in that it demonstrates how hard it is to use military strength as a “force for good” and a tool to win hearts and minds. The idea that war should be a last resort isn’t just a political slogan; there are good reasons for adopting that position, because military intervention doesn’t work out as neatly as moving pieces on a chessboard.

  288. 288.

    The Other Steve

    May 18, 2006 at 10:47 am

    That was snark, right?

    More like wishful thinking. We’ll see. But listening to the guy and the fact that some of the old guys are coming back, I think it’s a good move. This may be the first competent guy Bush has nominated for something.

  289. 289.

    Punchy

    May 18, 2006 at 10:53 am

    the fact is that you don’t win any hearts and minds with a cover-up.

    They’re LONG past caring about anyone’s cardiac or neurological health. If you did, you wouldn’t bust into a home and just start offing entire families (OT: how DOES a human being point a gun at a child and shoot? How does one perform this multiple times? Isn’t this how we define “moster” in common parlance?).

    Alas…they’ll be a coverup. Nobody’s seeing the cooler over this. Rumsfeld will deny, then obfuscate, then classify everything, then ignore any investigation. Just call him Don Donald.

  290. 290.

    The Other Steve

    May 18, 2006 at 10:58 am

    It’s not even an issue of control, it’s a matter of respect for others and adhering to facts of the matter – neither of which you seem capable of doing.

    It’s interesting. There was a test for you in my 10:09am message, and it appears you failed.

    It appears I was correct in my assessment that words only have negative meaning, when you reinforce the fear of a negative meaning. For you overlooked the other word, which is quite well known, and said nothing. As such, the real perpetrators of negativity here are the PC Ninny’s.

    And again, that’s because it is all about control. Not respect, but control.

  291. 291.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 11:00 am

    May 17, 2006 — LATE EDITION — WMR can report tonight on more details concerning the confusing reports regarding Karl Rove and Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald from last Friday. WMR can confirm that the appearance of Attorney General Alberto Gonzales before the Grand Jury at the US Federal Courthouse in Washington was a formality in which the jury informed the Attorney General of their decision to indict Karl Rove. That proceeding lasted for less than 30 minutes and took place shortly after noon. Gonzales’s personal security detachment was present in the courthouse during the Grand Jury briefing. From the courthouse, Gonzales’s motorcade proceeded directly down Constitution Avenue to the Department of Justice.

    According to sources within the Patton and Boggs law firm, Karl Rove was present at the law firm’s building on M Street. WMR was told by a credible source that a Patton and Boggs attorney confirmed that Fitzgerald paid a visit to the law firm to inform Rove attorney Robert Luskin and Rove that an indictment would be returned by the Grand Jury against Rove. Contrary to other reports, some of which may have emanated from the Rove camp in order to create diversions and smokescreens, the meetings at Patton and Boggs did not last 15 hours nor was a 24-hour notice of intent to indict delivered to Rove. In the Scooter Libby case last October, after the Grand Jury decided to indict Libby on Friday, October 21 and the Attorney General personally heard the decision the same day at a meeting with the jury, the actual indictment was issued the following Friday, October 28. Several sources have told WMR that an announcement concerning the indictment of Rove will be made on Friday, May 19 generally following the same scenario from October 28, 2005 — the posting of the indictment on the Special Prosecutor’s web site followed by a press conference at Main Justice.

    WMR was also told by a credible source that part of the reason for Fitzgerald’s visit to Patton and Boggs was to inform Rove attorney Luskin that he has moved into the category of a “subject” of the special prosecutor’s investigation as a result of a conversation with Time reporter Viveca Novak, in which Novak told Luskin that Rove was a source for Time’s Matt Cooper. The special prosecutor, who has prosecuted one defense attorney in the Hollinger case, is reportedly investigating whether Luskin, as an officer of the court, may have violated laws on obstruction of justice.

    WMR has also discovered that last year Rove, realizing he remained a lightning rod in the CIA Leakgate scandal, made preliminary plans to move into the private sector from the White House to take political heat off the Bush administration. However, as it became clear that he was in over his head legally and his legal bills piled up, Rove decided to remain at the White House.

    Wayne Madsen Report

  292. 292.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 11:35 am

    I do think this incident further exposes the wrongness of the neocon position, in that it demonstrates how hard it is to use military strength as a “force for good” and a tool to win hearts and minds.

    What! Military action that wasn’t perfect? Look, if you want to criticize the toppling of Saddam because it ‘wasn’t worth the cost’ or whatever other reason, go ahead. But this incident, which if proven true (still under investigation at this point) would be terrible, does not demonstrate the “wrongness” of the neocon position, anymore than US military atrocities against civilians during WW II demonstrated the wrongness of fighting Hitler.

    But thanks for trying!

  293. 293.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 11:40 am

    I am not trying to make an overly emotional argument about the apparent murder of Iraqi citizens by Marines. I am not blaming it on Bush or Rumsfeld. Personally, I would expect this to happen. It is war, and in war, these things happen. That doesn’t excuse the acts in any way. It is just predictable and unavoidable

    You’re not? then why did you write

    The details are disturbing. Women and children. Men executed as they prayed. Close range shots to the head and chest.

    when the actual details are not known. I mean, if you’re really trying to be sincere, rather than throwing out unsubstantiated emotional arguments, why not wait for more.. you know, facts and details to come in before leaping to conclusions which, if not true, would be damaging?

  294. 294.

    Tom

    May 18, 2006 at 11:44 am

    I thought Rove was indicted last Friday.

  295. 295.

    Steve

    May 18, 2006 at 11:51 am

    But this incident, which if proven true (still under investigation at this point) would be terrible, does not demonstrate the “wrongness” of the neocon position, anymore than US military atrocities against civilians during WW II demonstrated the wrongness of fighting Hitler.

    Apples and oranges, friend.

    No one disputes that fighting Hitler was the right thing to do, but more importantly, no one disputes that we entered into WWII as a last resort. Indeed, many people believe we entered the war well past the point of last resort.

    The neocon position is that war should be pursued more aggressively. We can use military strength to positively transform the world, so we don’t need to wait until there’s an imminent threat to go to war. We can declare preemptive war against emerging threats, we can transform dictatorships into democracies that will help spread the message of freedom, and so forth.

    My view is that the inevitable consequences of war are so terrible that it’s simply out of bounds to consider war as a tool for winning “hearts and minds” or as anything other than a last resort. The memory of incidents like this one takes a long time to fade away, and these inevitable occurrences will undoubtedly be used in recruiting speeches by anti-American terrorists. The neocon position paints an idealistic picture of the transformative power of war, without taking into account all these negative externalities that we have seen over the course of the last three years.

  296. 296.

    Steve

    May 18, 2006 at 11:52 am

    Back to blockquoting 101 for me, it seems.

  297. 297.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 11:52 am

    when the actual details are not known.

    To whom? What “details” are you referring to?

    Are you saying that you doubt the veracity of the story?

    To what purpose? On what grounds?

  298. 298.

    Mr Furious

    May 18, 2006 at 12:04 pm

    “…But this incident […] does not demonstrate the “wrongness” of the neocon position, anymore than US military atrocities against civilians during WW II demonstrated the wrongness of fighting Hitler.”

    But this statement demonstrates the “wrongness of Darrell.” Both Steve and ppGaz are saying that War is not a cakewalk, video game, or surgical instrument. It is a powder keg, shitstorm and disaster waiting to happen.

    Saddam was not Hitler, and Iraq was not Poland, France, Britian, Russia, and everywhere else Germany attacked.

    Bush and his Merry Men sold a War based on lies (no clear and present danger or threat) and packaged it as not only necessary, but immediate, and most importantly, they said it would be easy.

    This War passed the point of being “worth it” before it ever got off the ground. Never mind the thousands dead and hundreds of billions spent.

  299. 299.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 12:04 pm

    I mean, if you’re really trying to be sincere, rather than throwing out unsubstantiated emotional arguments, why not wait for more.. you know, facts and details to come in before leaping to conclusions which, if not true, would be damaging?

    Why should anyone take this crap from you? You are never being sincere here. And why are you here trying to put a damper on discussion of this story?

    If you want to be treated as something other than an obnoxious obstructionist asshole around here, maybe you should start acting like something other than an obnoxious obstructionist asshole? Maybe you should answer simple direct question when they are put to you, and stand up to the challenges put to you and your loony assertions? Stop referring to anyone anywhere who disagrees with you as “The Left” and dismissing all arguments you don’t like out of hand?

    Fuck you, Darrell. Get out of here.

  300. 300.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 12:04 pm

    My view is that the inevitable consequences of war are so terrible that it’s simply out of bounds to consider war as a tool for winning “hearts and minds” or as anything other than a last resort

    You still have not demonstrated how that one particular incident, unproven at this time, in any way proves the “wrongness” of our actions.

    And waiting until ‘last resort’ time as you suggest, has historically cost many more lives, whether we’re talking about the countless number of lives lost waiting to stop Hitler, the innocent lives lost waiting to fight Serbs in the Balkans, the Hutus Rwanda, or the genocide in Sudan.. all those lives lost waiting until war is a ‘last resort’, right? Each wait came at horrific costs. Waiting for the last resort as you advocate, has in hindsight been disastrous. Incredible really, that you’re taking that position. I hope you and your side run with that point of view so that Americans can see exactly how you think

  301. 301.

    tBone

    May 18, 2006 at 12:05 pm

    It appears I was correct in my assessment that words only have negative meaning, when you reinforce the fear of a negative meaning. For you overlooked the other word, which is quite well known, and said nothing. As such, the real perpetrators of negativity here are the PC Ninny’s.

    ToS: if you’re going to beat a horse to death, use a stick, not a strawman. It’ll be faster.

  302. 302.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 12:06 pm

    You still have not demonstrated

    You have not demonstrated that anyone should pay any attention to you at all.

    And … Hitler? You are going to play the Hitler card, WRT to the war in Iraq?

    GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE Darrell, you’re a joke.

  303. 303.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 12:07 pm

    And why are you here trying to put a damper on discussion of this story?

    Uh, because, the investigation is still ongoing and the facts and details surrounding the incident are not known or confirmed?

  304. 304.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 12:10 pm

    Uh, because, the investigation is still ongoing

    Who are, the fucking White House press secretary?

    This is a blog, Darrell. We talk about things here.

    You are a gas station attendant in Bumfuck, Texas, whose brother in law lets you play with his computer. This is not the White House press room.

    GO AWAY.

  305. 305.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 12:24 pm

    Jesus Darrell. I was not trying to ramp up emotion, or blame bush or rumsfeld.

    I was simply referring to the consequences of this story. True or not, the details that we have so far are ugly. Women, children, and praying men were executed. I was just asking people their thoughts on what the reaction is going to be.

    As far as ‘we don’t know the facts yet’: I agree. We don’t KNOW the facts.

    But, this is coming from Murtha. I don’t take seriously any comments about this man’s patriotism or love for the Marines. He has long been the mouthpiece in congress for the military brass. Military officials are confirming his story to MSNBC. It seems that one of two things are happening:

    1) The military decided that the best way to make this story public was through Murtha
    2) The military fears a cover up and decided to make it public first, and they used Murtha for this.

    Jack Murtha is not a man that will tolerate the slander of his beloved Marine Corps, and he would never do so himself. If he is talking, there is good reason.

  306. 306.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 12:25 pm

    Uh, because, the investigation is still ongoing and the facts and details surrounding the incident are not known or confirmed?

    But Mary McCarthy should be hung.

  307. 307.

    John S.

    May 18, 2006 at 12:26 pm

    The Other Steve Says:

    I’m done with you. I guess what appeared to be overblown ppGaz rhetoric in regards to you was right on the money.

  308. 308.

    Perry Como

    May 18, 2006 at 12:27 pm

    Uh, because, the investigation is still ongoing and the facts and details surrounding the incident are not known or confirmed?

    Apparently a well respected Congressman has seen the report and he has presented the facts. Of course he’s a Democrat so he must hate the troops (truthy!).

    “There was no firefight. There was no IED (improvised explosive device) that killed those innocent people,” Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., said during a news conference on Iraq. “Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them. And they killed innocent civilians in cold blood. That is what the report is going to tell.”

    War is hell. This is the kind of shit that happens when you make human beings kill each other. Congrats to you and every other fuckwit that supported this war. Innocent blood is on your hands. Hopefully it doesn’t ruin your keyboard as you type out your support for Dear Leader.

  309. 309.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 12:28 pm

    You are a gas station attendant in Bumfuck, Texas, whose brother in law lets you play with his computer.

    Ah yes, the leftist elites’ contempt for the common working man emerges, holding up your nose at lowly gas station attendants. I’ll make sure your windows are cleaned real well next time you drop by for a fillup ppg.

  310. 310.

    Steve

    May 18, 2006 at 12:31 pm

    You still have not demonstrated how that one particular incident, unproven at this time, in any way proves the “wrongness” of our actions.

    Well, I already explained once that I wasn’t arguing that this one incident proves the Iraq war was wrong, so I don’t know how many times you want me to go over it. I explained, in measured language, why I believe the neocon philosophy is wrong, and why this incident serves as an illustration of my point.

    And waiting until ‘last resort’ time as you suggest, has historically cost many more lives… Incredible really, that you’re taking that position. I hope you and your side run with that point of view so that Americans can see exactly how you think

    I’m not really a ROFL guy but this was an ROFL moment you provided.

    “And, as a last resort, we must be willing to use military force. We are doing everything we can to avoid war in Iraq.” –George W. Bush

    “I think there is universal agreement that force is a last resort. That is absolutely valid for the United States.” –Ari Fleischer

    “Force should always be a last resort.” –Colin Powell

    “The President continues to seek a peaceful resolution. War is a last resort.” –Scott McClellan

    “And in this case, as the president said the other night, we are trying to see war as a last resort.” –Colin Powell

    “The President views the use of military force as a last resort, which he hopes can be avoided.” –Ari Fleischer

    Yes, I really hope the Dems campaign on that loser position that war should only be a “last resort”! ROFL.

  311. 311.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 12:31 pm

    Hopefully it doesn’t ruin your keyboard as you type out your support for Dear Leader.

    Do you lefties go to some sort of school to learn how to parrot these talking points? “Dear Leader”, “clap harder”, “truth to power”, “party before country” etc. But you consider yourselves ‘independent’ thinkers, right?

  312. 312.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 12:31 pm

    I actually agree with Darrell on something here. This incident does not show anything about the rightness or wrongness of the war, neocons, Bush, or Rumsfeld.

    As I said, this is what happens in a war. Americans are no more righteous than any other group of people. Nor are Christians, or Muslims. We are as prone to bigotry as anyone else. The bigotry that I speak of is the natural tendency to associate a group of people together when some of them are shooting at you daily. There has never been an occupation without these types of events.

    This only reflects on the administration because they didn’t foresee these events. They thought we could win hearts and minds as liberators. Liberation and nation building involves occupation and guerilla war, it isn’t an either or situation. Occupation, torture, and abuses cannot be separated, they always come together. They don’t win hearts and minds

  313. 313.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 12:37 pm

    Steve, I guess it depends on the meaning of “last resort”. I don’t see how fighting Serbs in the Balkans was a “last resort”, as they presented no immediate threat to us… our back was not against the wall. Did you support that one? Are you proud of our military inaction in Rwanda and Sudan? just curious as to how inconsistent you really are

  314. 314.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 12:39 pm

    They thought we could win hearts and minds as liberators. Liberation and nation building involves occupation and guerilla war, it isn’t an either or situation.

    Cub, do you think we are winning or losing the war in Iraq?

  315. 315.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 12:39 pm

    Ah yes, the leftist elites’ contempt for the common working man emerges, holding up your nose at lowly gas station attendants

    Where’s the GOP concern for the ever widening gap in wealth distribution? Universal healthcare? Day Care for single Mothers? Minimum wage increase? Pre-natal care for the poor?

    You have us there. The Republicans are truly the friend of the working man, the dems are supporting Unions because we are elitists.

    I remember now……trickle down bullshit. That’s how the GOP cares for the working man. If the rich get richer, they will drop a little and the rest of us can fight over it.

    Son of a mill worker and hair stylist here. Feel free to take one person’s post about you being a gas station attendant and stereotype everyone you feel is on the LEFT.

    How is that fight against contraception going for ya?

  316. 316.

    Perry Como

    May 18, 2006 at 12:42 pm

    Do you lefties go to some sort of school to learn how to parrot these talking points?

    Well, some of us independents despise people that think the government can do no wrong and is here to solve all of our problems. We hate seeing the National Guard being sent to foreign lands to fight wars of choice. We dislike the idea of the government spying on us. But nannystatist fuckholes like you have no problem with the $10 trillion debt ceiling that’s being used to support all of your big government ideas.

    I’ll keep using the lefty terms as long as they are accurate in descrbing the cult of personality crap that you self-described conservatives worship. btw, George Will called. He said you’re an asshat. And you aren’t a conservative.

  317. 317.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 12:42 pm

    Cub, do you think we are winning or losing the war in Iraq?

    Are we winning or losing……..

    That is the world’s most loaded and complex question.

    What is the definition of winning?

    Removing Saddam and ridding Iraq of WMD? Winning

    Leaving behind a democratic state to spread democracy through the region? Losing

    Tell me the definition of winning, and I will most definitely answer your question.

  318. 318.

    Mr Furious

    May 18, 2006 at 12:43 pm

    Refresh us, Darrell. How many U.S. troops were killed in the Balkans? How much did that War cost us?

    And, no, I am not proud of the inaction in Rwanda or Sudan.

    But all three of those cases are worlds apart from premeptive invasion of a sovereign nation.

    Anything else?

  319. 319.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 12:44 pm

    The Republicans are truly the friend of the working man, the dems are supporting Unions because we are elitists.

    The working man has his wages depressed by an out-of-control illegal immigration problem. Last I checked, it was pretty much all Dems who voted against the wall along the border, and it’s almost always Dems (though not all) who scream how immigration control is ‘racist’. All out of support for working Americans no doubt

  320. 320.

    The Other Steve

    May 18, 2006 at 12:44 pm

    I’m done with you. I guess what appeared to be overblown ppGaz rhetoric in regards to you was right on the money.

    LOL! Whatever. I thought it was fun. A couple things you need to realize:

    – I ALWAYS argue the contrarion point of view. Now that it’s only Darrell left, what would be the point of the rest of us all sitting around slapping each other on the back and claiming how clever we are?

    – I ALWAYS question preconceived notions, especially when they are put forth by people who can’t back them up.

    Nothing wrong with a little heated debate, you just need to go into it with an open mind and recognize when you aren’t making good points, and adapt with the flow.

  321. 321.

    Mr Furious

    May 18, 2006 at 12:45 pm

    Is Gratefulcub really John Edwards?

  322. 322.

    The Other Steve

    May 18, 2006 at 12:46 pm

    The working man has his wages depressed by an out-of-control illegal immigration problem. Last I checked, it was pretty much all Dems who voted against the wall along the border, and it’s almost always Dems (though not all) who scream how immigration control is ‘racist’. All out of support for working Americans no doubt

    Technically this is because the definition of “working man” has changed. It just hasn’t been realized within the political discourse yet.

  323. 323.

    The Other Steve

    May 18, 2006 at 12:47 pm

    Well, some of us independents despise people that think the government can do no wrong and is here to solve all of our problems.

    Hello. I’m from the Government, and I’m here to help.

  324. 324.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 12:49 pm

    Refresh us, Darrell. How many U.S. troops were killed in the Balkans? How much did that War cost us?

    The point is Furious, Steve and others argue that we should only enter a war as a “last resort”. The Balkans was not a war of last resort by any meaningful definition, so it’s entirely fair for me to point out what I believe to be an inconsistent hypocritical postion as to when we should and should not enter wars.

    Also, does your emphasis on “sovereign” nation mean something special?.. As if Croatia isn’t/wasn’t a sovereign nation when we bombed it in the Balkans. As if Sudan isn’t a sovereign nation which is comitting genocide. What is your point in emphasizing sovereignty?

  325. 325.

    Steve

    May 18, 2006 at 12:52 pm

    Steve, I guess it depends on the meaning of “last resort”. I don’t see how fighting Serbs in the Balkans was a “last resort”, as they presented no immediate threat to us… our back was not against the wall. Did you support that one? Are you proud of our military inaction in Rwanda and Sudan? just curious as to how inconsistent you really are

    Could we have stopped the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo with something short of military action? Not that I know of. If you think it was worth stopping – and I do – then military intervention was the only option. “Last resort” doesn’t mean you can only get involved when the survival of your country is at stake. I supported the first Gulf War. I don’t think we should let people go around invading their neighbors.

    If you’re looking for “inconsistency,” try the Republican politicians who opposed the intervention in Kosovo just because it was Clinton’s idea. Ask them if they’re proud of the position they took.

  326. 326.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 12:53 pm

    The working man has his wages depressed by an out-of-control illegal immigration problem

    You pick one single issue, and try to use that to show that the GOP is for the working man.

    And no, it isn’t just Dems that keep your precious fence from being built. The GOP is in the pockets of big business, that wants illegals. The Dems want to legalize them so they won’t be slave labor. But, to many dems are getting their money from the same donors, so immigration policy won’t change.

    (I am not Democrat, I don’t really care for the party or many of it’s leaders. I don’t agree with all of their policy platforms, whatever they are. I am a liberal, and I don’t care that the word has been trashed by the Rush’s of the world)

    The right has no ability to assume the position that it supports the workers of this country, none.

    Is Gratefulcub really John Edwards?

    It sounded familiar when I typed it, and I realized what I had done about the time I hit send.

  327. 327.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 12:57 pm

    War as last resort is just rhetoric. Obviously, few people actually hold the position that we should only fight if our shores are going to be imminently attacked.

    I believe we should have stepped in during the Rwandan massacre. It was the last resort to prevent genocide. We tried diplomacy. We tried a show force of UN forces. The only way to stop it was to send in the Marines.

    (Rwanda was the fault of the UN. Their response was abysmal.)

    Iraq was not on the verge of genocide. They were not an immediate threat to the US. We had time to try other options. We had successfully kept him in his box. War was not the last resort.

  328. 328.

    Perry Como

    May 18, 2006 at 12:59 pm

    A videotape taken by an Iraqi showed the aftermath of the alleged attack: a blood-smeared bedroom floor and bits of what appear to be human flesh and bullet holes on the walls.

    The video, obtained by Time magazine, was broadcast a day after town residents told The Associated Press that American troops entered homes on Nov. 19 and shot dead 15 members of two families, including a 3-year-old girl, after a roadside bomb killed a U.S. Marine.

    Clap louder Darrell. A dead 3-year-old can’t hear you.

  329. 329.

    Steve

    May 18, 2006 at 12:59 pm

    I don’t want to get too far off the subject, but I wanted to bring up the recent bipartisan consensus on just how much illegal immigration hurts the “working man.”

    Immigration in recent decades of low-skilled workers may have lowered the wages of domestic low-skilled workers, but the effect is likely to be small, with estimates of wage reductions for high-school dropouts ranging from eight percent to as little as zero percent.

    Leading economists from the Bush and Clinton Administrations have already signed onto the full document. It’s worth a read if you think the viewpoint of economists is relevant.

  330. 330.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 1:00 pm

    If you’re looking for “inconsistency,” try the Republican politicians who opposed the intervention in Kosovo just because it was Clinton’s idea

    I remember that.. there were grumblings, but once Bob Dole stood up and said we need to do this, Republicans backed it. Compare those actions to Dems today screaming how “Bush lied”.

    And if you supported military action in the Balkans, as well as the first Gulf War, then how are those positions consistent with your statement above?

    My view is that the inevitable consequences of war are so terrible that it’s simply out of bounds to consider war as a tool for winning “hearts and minds” or as anything other than a last resort

    Truth is, those positions are inconsistent, as neither the Balkans or Gulf War I can be reasonably characterized as wars of “last resort”.

  331. 331.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 1:00 pm

    The working man has his wages depressed by an out-of-control illegal immigration problem.

    Complete and utter bullshit. Illegal immigration definitely depresses wages. But, that is one factor of thousands that depress wages.

  332. 332.

    Krista

    May 18, 2006 at 1:02 pm

    I believe we should have stepped in during the Rwandan massacre. It was the last resort to prevent genocide. We tried diplomacy. We tried a show force of UN forces. The only way to stop it was to send in the Marines.

    (Rwanda was the fault of the UN. Their response was abysmal.)

    The response everywhere was abysmal. It was pathetic that the entire world turned their backs on Rwanda and on the poor buggers who had been sent there by the UN to “observe”, but weren’t allowed to actually DO anything.

  333. 333.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 1:02 pm

    if you think the viewpoint of economists is relevant.

    Economists are too close to scientist, so they can be disregarded if i don’t like what they have to say.

  334. 334.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 1:05 pm

    Leading economists from the Bush and Clinton Administrations have already signed onto the full document

    Doesn’t make it right or accurate. Average wages for skilled carpenters here in Houston is under $14/hour according to BLS. Not beginning carpenters, but average carpenter wages, presumably with around 10 years experience to aspire to the $14/hour level. But illegals don’t depress wages right? or only depress them between 0% and 8%? Please

  335. 335.

    The Other Steve

    May 18, 2006 at 1:06 pm

    Compare those actions to Dems today screaming how “Bush lied”.

    But Bush did lie. So I’m not sure what you’re getting at.

  336. 336.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 1:06 pm

    The point is Furious, Steve and others argue that we should only enter a war as a “last resort”.

    You bottomless pit of morondom. George Bush, the little monkeyman president, said it’s a “last resort.”

    WTF does that phrase mean to you? Because the meaning of the phrase is key to the whole problem set.

    In the space of 5 minutes, you managed to (a) try to dispel the “last resort” nature of war, (b) compare Iraq to Hitler’s Germany, and (c) talk as if we shouldn’t discuss a moving story about the war because there’s an ongoing “investigation,” as if you were Scotty McClellan.

    Are you just trying to be a caricature of yourself today?

  337. 337.

    The Other Steve

    May 18, 2006 at 1:07 pm

    Average wages for skilled carpenters here in Houston is under $14/hour according to BLS

    Isn’t that a good thing?

    I mean you guys have been whining about the minimum wage now for years, so I’d think you’d like the fact that wages are being depressed.

  338. 338.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 1:07 pm

    It was pathetic that the entire world turned their backs on Rwanda and on the poor buggers who had been sent there by the UN to “observe”, but weren’t allowed to actually DO anything.

    Shake Hands with the Devil

    If you haven’t seen it, and get the chance, I recommend it. Actually, I don’t. I wouldn’t tell anyone that they should spend two hours like that. It chronicles the return of the Canadian General in charge of the ‘Observers’. He reflects on the genocide and walks you through how it unfolded. I have never seen so many bodies in my life.

    With almost a million killed by machetes, it is hard to feel for the white guy flying in on jet that made it out alive, but…… This is the most broken man I have ever seen. The fact that he is able to get out of bed each morning is amazing. (I do realize that the same should be said for everyone still alive in Rwanda)

  339. 339.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 1:08 pm

    Illegal immigration definitely depresses wages.

    Whose? For everyone on this blog, it increases real wages, because it decreases the costs of essential goods and services.

    Whose “wages” are being depressed? Facts, please?

  340. 340.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 1:10 pm

    skilled carpenters

    That would mean that a large group of unskilled laborers crossing the border are actually skilled carpenters.

  341. 341.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 1:12 pm

    How can one quantify with any degree of certainty, the impact illegal aliens have on wages? For example, I can’t ‘prove’ that illegals are a significant reason why carpenter wages in Houston are so low, but I know it’s true. They illegals who come here appear to be disproportionely uneducated and unskilled, so the lower end wage scale workers logically would take the brunt of the depressed wages, whereas doctors and lawyers would be much less affected.

  342. 342.

    Steve

    May 18, 2006 at 1:12 pm

    Truth is, those positions are inconsistent, as neither the Balkans or Gulf War I can be reasonably characterized as wars of “last resort”.

    How could we have stopped the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo without military action? How could we have expelled Saddam from Kuwait without military action?

    You seem to have adopted a strange definition of “last resort” that no one short of extreme pacifists believes in – namely, that we can only go to war when our very survival as a nation is threatened. That’s not what I mean by “last resort” and it’s not what anyone else of any seriousness means by it, either.

  343. 343.

    Mr Furious

    May 18, 2006 at 1:12 pm

    From wikipedia…

    The NATO bombing campaign
    NATO’s bombing campaign lasted from March 24 to June 10, 1999, involving up to 1,000 aircraft operating mainly from bases in Italy and aircraft carriers stationed in the Adriatic. Tomahawk cruise missiles were also extensively used, fired from aircraft, ships and submarines. The United States was, inevitably, the dominant member of the coalition against Serbia, although all of the NATO members were involved to some degree — even Greece, despite publicly opposing the war. Over the ten weeks of the conflict, NATO aircraft flew over 38,000 combat missions. For the German Air Force (Luftwaffe) it was the first time it had participated in a conflict since World War II. In addition to airpower, one battalion from the US Army’s 82nd Airborne Division was deployed to help combat missions. The battalion secured Apache Attack Helicopter refueling sites and a small team forward deployed to the Albania/Kosovo border to identify targets for Allied/NATO airstrikes.

    […]

    In June, after Milosevic accepted the conditions, the IEF (initial entry force) entered into the war-torn land of Kosovo. The IEF consisted of forces from the 2nd Battalion, 505th Parachute Infantry Regiment from Fort Bragg, N.C; the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit from Camp Lejeune, N.C.; the 1st Battalion, 26th Infantry Regiment from Schweinfurt Germany, Echo Troop, 4th Cavalry Regiment, also from Schweinfurt, Germany; and the 501st Mechanized Infantry Battalion from Greece. The battalion established its area of operation around the town of Urosevic, the future Camp Bondsteel, and spent four months establishing order in the south east sector of Kosovo. During that time the US soldiers were greeted by Albanians young and old cheering and throwing flowers as US Soldiers and KFOR rolled through their villages.

    Aftermath
    The most immediate problem — the refugees — was largely resolved very quickly: within three weeks, over 500,000 Albanian refugees had returned home. By November 1999, according to the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, 808,913 out of 848,100 had returned.

    Military effects
    Military casualties on the NATO side were remarkably light — the alliance suffered no fatalities as a result of combat operations. The alliance reported the loss of three helicopters, 32 unmanned air vehicles (UAVs) and five aircraft — all of them American, including the first stealth plane (a F-117 Fighter Bomber) shot down by enemy fire.

    Now I am not claiming that things were perfect. We DID accidently bomb the Chinese embassy and shoot apart a refugee convoy.

    But if you cannot draw the distinctions between that conflict and Iraq, I sure as hell am not going to be able to convince you.

  344. 344.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 1:12 pm

    Average wages for skilled carpenters here in Houston is under $14/hour

    Uh, no, we worked that line of bullshit here LAST YEAR and it’s bunk.

    It’s a myth that rests on some very dysfunctional assertions about what a “skilled carpenter” is. A skilled carpenter is not some guy who can swing a hammer and nail framing. A skilled carpenter is the guy who mentors and supervises the hammer-swingers, and he is not working for any $14 an hour in Houston. If he were, he’d be leaving Houston tomorrow and going somewhere else. No skilled carpenter worth his salt will stay and work for that pay.

    I’m talking about a guy who can add two or three rooms onto your house and have them be square and to code when he’s done, without having to do any parts over. That guy don’t work for $14 an hour.

  345. 345.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 1:13 pm

    but I know it’s true

    That’s what you said last year, and it turned out to be bullshit.

  346. 346.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 1:15 pm

    That would mean that a large group of unskilled laborers crossing the border are actually skilled carpenters.

    That, or they learn carpentry here. Either way, they are depressing the wages of working man which you Dems claim you care so much for.

    I love how gratefulcub in particular lectures on the Dems concerns for the working man, yet he defends his own family’s hiring of illegal aliens over working Americans. Like most Dems, “do as I say, not as I do”, as those rules should apply to ‘other’ people

  347. 347.

    Steve

    May 18, 2006 at 1:16 pm

    How can one quantify with any degree of certainty, the impact illegal aliens have on wages? For example, I can’t ‘prove’ that illegals are a significant reason why carpenter wages in Houston are so low, but I know it’s true.

    Stephen Colbert would be so proud of you, looking to your gut for answers rather than those annoying books. Not being an economist myself, I can’t explain to you how the Chairman of President Bush’s Council of Economic Advisors quantifies something like that, but I’m guessing it’s something a little more scientific than Googling the average wage of carpenters in Houston and saying “gee, that looks way too low.” I could be wrong, though.

  348. 348.

    Mr Furious

    May 18, 2006 at 1:18 pm

    I remember that.. there were grumblings, but once Bob Dole stood up and said we need to do this, Republicans backed it. Compare those actions to Dems today screaming how “Bush lied”.

    Sweet Jesus, Darrell. Do you recall a certain Rose Garden ceremony with prominant Dems all lined up with the President to authorize force? There was plenty of Dem support for the invasion (too much in my opinion, and misguided as well) and no Dem of significance was screaming “Bush lied!!” leading up to the War.

    I’m not even sure today that I’d characterize the official Dem position as screaming “He Lied!!!” Even though he did, and they should.

  349. 349.

    Steve

    May 18, 2006 at 1:19 pm

    We DID accidently bomb the Chinese embassy and shoot apart a refugee convoy.

    By the way, it’s pretty much an unquestioned truth where I come from that we bombed the Chinese embassy by accident because we had outdated maps, but my impression from snooping around the Internet is that we seem to be the only country left who actually believes that story. I’m not saying it’s a lie, mind you, I just find it interesting.

  350. 350.

    Mr Furious

    May 18, 2006 at 1:20 pm

    Why does three exclamation points in a row (perhaps my favorite punctuation) turn into some “missing graphic question mark”?

  351. 351.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 1:22 pm

    yet he defends his own family’s hiring of illegal aliens over working Americans.

    Go back and read again. No Locals will do the jobs, so they bring in ‘guest workers’ which go back to Mexico at the end of the season.

    That was a bit too personal of an attack D.

  352. 352.

    Mr Furious

    May 18, 2006 at 1:23 pm

    From the wikipedia article:

    On May 7, NATO bombs hit the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, killing three Chinese journalists and outraging Chinese public opinion. The United States and NATO later apologized for the bombing, saying that it occurred because of an outdated map provided by the CIA. This was challenged by a joint report from The Observer (UK) and Politiken (Denmark) newspapers which claimed that NATO intentionally bombed the embassy because it was being used as a relay station for Yugoslav army radio signals. The bombing strained relations between China and NATO countries and provoked angry demonstrations outside Western embassies in Beijing. According to one news source, unnamed high ranking NATO sources confirmed in 2005 that the attack was in fact deliberate: “The NATO sources told Defense & Foreign Affairs that the attack was based on intelligence that then Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic was to have been in the Embassy at the time of the attack. The attack, then, was deliberately planned as a “decapitation” attack, intended to kill Milosevic.”

    I report, you decide.

  353. 353.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 1:24 pm

    Stephen Colbert would be so proud of you, looking to your gut for answers rather than those annoying books.

    Given economists’ abysmal track record in predicting economic turns and effects of this and that ‘tweaking’ of the economy, smart money would be on my anecdotal observations which are backed by the BLS.. observations which I feel confident are consistent with most other Americans who live in areas highly populated with illegal aliens.

  354. 354.

    Perry Como

    May 18, 2006 at 1:24 pm

    I wonder what having every American owe $50,000 to the Federal government does to wages? How does a $10 trillion debt ceiling affect wages? How does a government run by “conservatives” that lowers taxes while handing out our tax money to K Street clients affect wages? How does a $1 trillion war affect wages?

  355. 355.

    tBone

    May 18, 2006 at 1:25 pm

    For example, I can’t ‘prove’ that illegals are a significant reason why carpenter wages in Houston are so low, but I know it’s true.

    Because you ‘feel’ it must be true, right? You can’t help it, it’s just who you are . . . a member of the ‘reality-based’ community

  356. 356.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 1:26 pm

    Go back and read again. No Locals will do the jobs, so they bring in ‘guest workers’ which go back to Mexico at the end of the season.

    Correction – no American workers will do the jobs FOR THE WAGES YOUR FAMILY IS WILLING TO PAY. Is there a legal guest worker plan in effect with respect to those sorts of jobs?

  357. 357.

    demimondian

    May 18, 2006 at 1:27 pm

    I’m talking about a guy who can add two or three rooms onto your house and have them be square and to code when he’s done, without having to do any parts over. That guy don’t work for $14 an hour.

    No joke.

    The demi-mansion is currently being extended, and we pay a lot more than $14/hour for the head of our framing crew.

  358. 358.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 1:27 pm

    That, or they learn carpentry here.

    Not beginning carpenters, but average carpenter wages, presumably with around 10 years experience

    Unskilled Labor comes in without carpentry skills.

    They don’t have an education, and they don’t speak English.

    After they get here, they learn carpentry so quickly that they depress the wages of skilled carpenters with 10 years experience.

  359. 359.

    The Other Steve

    May 18, 2006 at 1:28 pm

    I believe we should have stepped in during the Rwandan massacre. It was the last resort to prevent genocide. We tried diplomacy. We tried a show force of UN forces. The only way to stop it was to send in the Marines.

    (Rwanda was the fault of the UN. Their response was abysmal.)

    Rwanda was the fault of the Rwandans who went around and killed people.

    I’m not so in favor of sending in the marines. What we need to do is send in food, medical supplies and guns. Train a guy to fight for himself. Granted, we can always provide some air support and maybe support on the flanks. Nothing demoralizes an enemy more than getting beat up on two sides. But the problem with doing something for someone else, is that they’ll be reliant upon you in the future. The old saying… give a man fish he’ll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he’ll eat for a lifetime. (example, see French aid to Colonies during American War of Aggression Against British Rule)

    In fact, in one of the interviews I saw with the author of Hotel Rwanda, he said that things got better after the UN troops left. Because then the people realized the only hope they had was if they stood up themselves.

    Obviously the issue is complicated. But I prefer promoting self-reliance in the world.

  360. 360.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 1:28 pm

    Mr. Furious, because we fought the Serbs from the air, many innocent civilians were killed by bombs dropped by our planes. It was not as clean a war as you are suggesting. Read up some more and get back to us

  361. 361.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 1:29 pm

    Either way, they are depressing the wages of working man which you Dems claim you care so much for.

    Nope, not so. I am in Phoenix, at the very center of both legal and illegal immigration from Mexico. Skilled carpenters here are getting $30-40 an hour, depending on what “skilled” means in any given situation, and are in considerable demand. Hammer swingers can get $15, and landscapers here are getting $12-14. That’s fresh from a small contractor who builds and sells his own houses, as we speak.

    Las Vegas, same thing. Southern California, same thing, only higher wages.

    No “skilled carpenter” who knows anything about the trade is working anywhere in this country where there is a viable construction industry for $14 an hour. A newbie hammer swinger can usually make that much or more on the first day.

    You are full of shit as usual.

  362. 362.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 1:31 pm

    They don’t have an education, and they don’t speak English.

    After they get here, they learn carpentry so quickly that they depress the wages of skilled carpenters with 10 years experience.

    Not only do they not speak English, they can’t even speak good Spanish. Not sure if there is such a big skill difference between a carpenter of 2-3 years and one with 10 years experience.

  363. 363.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 1:32 pm

    Correction – no American workers will do the jobs FOR THE WAGES YOUR FAMILY IS WILLING TO PAY. Is there a legal guest worker plan in effect with respect to those sorts of jobs?

    Asshole. Really, you can stop smearing my family any time. We are talking about a man that has been up by 5 a.m. and in the fields until dark, 6 days a week since he was a teenager.

    It has nothing to do with what they are WILLING to pay. Big Ag has depressed the wages of farm help by consolidation, and the use of cheap illegal labor.

    Small farms, and my family in particular, pay what they CAN pay. How long can they expect to hold on to the farm if they spend more than they make? Free market, american way, all that BS. They have to survive too. They can’t pay someone $14 an hour to pull plants and set tobacco. They can, but they will lose money, and then Cargill will buy their farm when the bank forcloses.

  364. 364.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 1:34 pm

    Not only do they not speak English, they can’t even speak good Spanish.

    without comment

  365. 365.

    The Other Steve

    May 18, 2006 at 1:38 pm

    By the way, it’s pretty much an unquestioned truth where I come from that we bombed the Chinese embassy by accident because we had outdated maps, but my impression from snooping around the Internet is that we seem to be the only country left who actually believes that story. I’m not saying it’s a lie, mind you, I just find it interesting.

    I think the story is accurate. There was no reason for NATO to purposefully bomb the Chinese embassy in Bosnia.

    If it’d been the Russian embassy, then maybe I could see a wilful accident… as Russia was supporting Milosevic. But not against China.

    And there had been a lot of churn with the mapping agencies in the 90’s as budgets were cut and then they were merged into NIMA.

  366. 366.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 1:39 pm

    Nope, not so. I am in Phoenix, at the very center of both legal and illegal immigration from Mexico. Skilled carpenters here are getting $30-40 an hour, depending on what “skilled” means in any given situation, and are in considerable demand.

    I guess you think using the word “depending” excuses you for lying your ass off. In Phoenix/Mesa, carpenters earn:

    Cabinetmakers and Bench Carpenters: median $11.28/hr

    Carpenter’s Helpers (hammer swingers?): median wage of $8.56/hr

    Carpenters: median wage $16.11/hr

    BLS figures

  367. 367.

    Perry Como

    May 18, 2006 at 1:39 pm

    Big Ag has depressed the wages of farm help by consolidation, and the use of cheap illegal labor.

    And now they want the small farmer to tag every single animal. The Republicans love small businesses.

  368. 368.

    Steve

    May 18, 2006 at 1:39 pm

    I’m not so in favor of sending in the marines. What we need to do is send in food, medical supplies and guns. Train a guy to fight for himself.

    We’re currently engaged in the process of trying to train a certain nation to fight for itself. Turns out it’s not all that easy… and that’s with the benefit of a huge American military presence to do the training!

  369. 369.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 1:42 pm

    Where’s your response Darrell? What about my family refusing to pay locals a decent wage, or using illegal aliens for cheap labor? Or is this another hit and run where you go over the top offensive, but instead of respond you just say something else ridiculous so that the original will be forgotten?

    What is your definition of ‘winning’ in Iraq? That has been on the table for what, an hour and half?

  370. 370.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 1:43 pm

    Asshole. Really, you can stop smearing my family any time.

    Your family is hiring illegal aliens insted of Americans to work their fields, and I’m the asshole? Like I said, with Dems so often they have the rules apply only to ‘other’ people

  371. 371.

    Perry Como

    May 18, 2006 at 1:45 pm

    What is your definition of ‘winning’ in Iraq? That has been on the table for what, an hour and half?

    He’s consulting with the dead 3-year-old Iraqi girl.

  372. 372.

    Steve

    May 18, 2006 at 1:45 pm

    Darrell has really crossed the line here. I’m out.

  373. 373.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 1:45 pm

    I’m not so in favor of sending in the marines. What we need to do is send in food, medical supplies and guns. Train a guy to fight for himself.

    I would usually agree, but Rwanda was a unique situation. Someone needed to step in to stop the slaughter.

    It may be true that things got better after the UN left, but things got much worse when the UN didn’t step in during the initial massacre. They realized that no one was going to stop them, but they assumed they had a limited amount of time before someone would step in.

  374. 374.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 1:48 pm

    Your family is hiring illegal aliens insted of Americans to work their fields

    no, i already explained it. I don’t know what the initials of the program is, but they get labor through a federal or state agency. At the end of the season, they go back to Mexico.

    He is my uncle. he is the most ethical man I know. He only uses american made tractors, combines, trucks, etc. He still refers to our Toyota as a rice burner, but only in jest.

    He’s Republican.

    Not illegals. Do I need to say it a third time?

  375. 375.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 1:49 pm

    initials of the program is

    Are, not is:)

  376. 376.

    Krista

    May 18, 2006 at 1:50 pm

    Shake Hands with the Devil

    If you haven’t seen it, and get the chance, I recommend it. Actually, I don’t. I wouldn’t tell anyone that they should spend two hours like that. It chronicles the return of the Canadian General in charge of the ‘Observers’. He reflects on the genocide and walks you through how it unfolded. I have never seen so many bodies in my life.

    With almost a million killed by machetes, it is hard to feel for the white guy flying in on jet that made it out alive, but…… This is the most broken man I have ever seen. The fact that he is able to get out of bed each morning is amazing. (I do realize that the same should be said for everyone still alive in Rwanda)

    Saw it. Bought the book. Am meeting the man this summer. I’ll shake his hand for you. :)

  377. 377.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 1:53 pm

    Steve Says:

    Darrell has really crossed the line here. I’m out.

    What line is that?

  378. 378.

    Pb

    May 18, 2006 at 1:55 pm

    Ok, so are we talking about average pay or median pay here? Note the difference, because the working man has his wages depressed by an out-of-control corporate greed problem, which has only been getting worse…

  379. 379.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 1:55 pm

    Krista, our Canadian neighbor. You aren’t going to sneak into Detroit for some carpentry training are you? 

    I have a documentary channel and a Tivo. So, I flip through the guide every now and then and set several to record in the middle of the night. So, I got that one. Good thing too, because it honestly took me three sittings to make it through the whole thing.

    In what type of setting are you getting to meet him.

  380. 380.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 1:55 pm

    Your family is hiring illegal aliens insted of Americans to work their fields

    Where are American citizens working in fields, and for what wages?

    Remember, I’m in Arizona, where almost all of the winter table salad vegetables in this country come from, so I am not likely to be fooled by your bullshit.

  381. 381.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 1:57 pm

    Not illegals. Do I need to say it a third time?

    I asked above whether there was a legal guest worker program for farm workers from south of the border. Because if there’s not, those workers would be working here illegally

  382. 382.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 1:57 pm

    What line is that?

    I know what it was for me.

    Your family is hiring illegal aliens insted of Americans to work their fields

    Where’s your response Darrell? What about my family refusing to pay locals a decent wage, or using illegal aliens for cheap labor? Or is this another hit and run where you go over the top offensive, but instead of respond you just say something else ridiculous so that the original will be forgotten?

    What is your definition of ‘winning’ in Iraq? That has been on the table for what, an hour and half?

  383. 383.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 1:59 pm

    Ok, so are we talking about average pay or median pay here?

    The BLS report I cited had both, and there wasn’t much difference between median and mean wages for the carpenter jobs.

  384. 384.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 1:59 pm

    Asked:

    I asked above whether there was a legal guest worker program for farm workers from south of the border. Because if there’s not, those workers would be working here illegally

    And Answered:

    I don’t know what the initials of the program are, but they get labor through a federal or state agency. At the end of the season, they go back to Mexico.

    He is my uncle. he is the most ethical man I know. He only uses american made tractors, combines, trucks, etc. He still refers to our Toyota as a rice burner, but only in jest.

    He’s Republican.

    Not illegals. Do I need to say it a fourth time?

    Anyone else having a hard time following that answer? Anyone? If so, I will try to rephrase it.

  385. 385.

    The Other Steve

    May 18, 2006 at 2:00 pm

    It may be true that things got better after the UN left, but things got much worse when the UN didn’t step in during the initial massacre. They realized that no one was going to stop them, but they assumed they had a limited amount of time before someone would step in.

    Granted. It’s not an easy answer to everything.

    regardless, one of the reasons why I have respect for Israel is that they basically said “Enough of this shit. We’re not relying on anybody to protect us ever again.”

    And yes, I know we’re trying to train soldiers in Iraq, but I argue that one of the reasons why we have not been successful is that they do not see the urgency as the Americans are taking much of the fire.

  386. 386.

    Krista

    May 18, 2006 at 2:02 pm

    I’m not so in favor of sending in the marines. What we need to do is send in food, medical supplies and guns. …
    Obviously the issue is complicated. But I prefer promoting self-reliance in the world.

    More guns. That’s all that was needed – particularly for the children who were slaughtered.

    The problem comes down to one of the problems that has always plagued Africa — colonialism. Other nations, who think they know best, choosing the borders, the government, and everything else for them, with no consideration towards tribal histories and tribal politics.

    Sound familiar?

  387. 387.

    srv

    May 18, 2006 at 2:02 pm

    Like I said, with Dems so often they have the rules apply only to ‘other’ people

    No, I think you want to whine and blame Dems for policies that primarily benefit your base.

    Tell us, Darrell, how do you help the little guy? By shopping at WalMart? Buying products only made with union wages?

  388. 388.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 2:03 pm

    Or is this another hit and run where you go over the top offensive, but instead of respond you just say something else ridiculous so that the original will be forgotten?

    In the context of your posts declaring your deep concern for the common working man, it was entirely fair to point out that your ‘concern’ involves defending your family’s hiring of illegals (unless there is such thing as a legal guest worker program for field hands) over Americans.

  389. 389.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 2:06 pm

    Cabinetmakers and Bench Carpenters: median $11.28/hr

    These are people working on an assembly line, and those are 2-4 year old starting wages for inexperienced workers.

    Absolutely not related to your earlier bullshit.

    Carpenter’s Helpers (hammer swingers?): median wage of $8.56/hr

    No hammer swingers are working here for that wage. They can quit and be working the same day as common yardword landscaper trainees for more than that.

    No construction company would hire a “hammer swinger” here for eight bucks an hour. The experienced crew would quit in disgust, knowing that these totally uskilled people are going to get in their way.

    You might get a guy to do construction cleanup for eight bucks an hour. You might, but probably only if you hired him as casual labor, out of a Home Depot parking lot.

    You are full of shit, Darrell. Give it up.

  390. 390.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 2:08 pm

    In the context of your posts declaring your deep concern for the common working man, it was entirely fair to point out that your ‘concern’ involves defending your family’s hiring of illegals (unless there is such thing as a legal guest worker program for field hands) over Americans.

    I have been unequivocal that there are no illegal aliens working in the fields. That they try to hire locals. You have completely ignored that fact and still refer to ‘your family’s hiring of illegals.’

    You still haven’t addressed your comment that locals won’t work for WHAT MY FAMILY IS WILLING TO PAY.

    You still haven’t given me your definition of success, or winning as you like to call it like a football game, in Iraq.

  391. 391.

    Krista

    May 18, 2006 at 2:11 pm

    I have a documentary channel and a Tivo. So, I flip through the guide every now and then and set several to record in the middle of the night. So, I got that one. Good thing too, because it honestly took me three sittings to make it through the whole thing.

    In what type of setting are you getting to meet him.

    It was a very powerful documentary. It should be required watching for every member of the UN, IMHO.

    He’s the patron of our non-profit organization, and is coming for a dinner in July, where he’ll be guest speaking. You should come! I’ll try to introduce you.

  392. 392.

    srv

    May 18, 2006 at 2:13 pm

    You still haven’t given me your definition of success, or winning as you like to call it like a football game, in Iraq.

    Like all Republicans, it depends on what they believe at the current moment.

    All of you, please stop with your facts. They’re irrelevant. Darrell is making reality.

  393. 393.

    Perry Como

    May 18, 2006 at 2:13 pm

    You have completely ignored that fact and still refer to ‘your family’s hiring of illegals.’

    The Defender works at full efficiency when facts are ignored. Cronyism, big government handouts, and massive expansion of government at the behest of business has not had an effect on wages. Illegal immigration is the cause of all our ills. Hell, illegal immigrants probably gave The Decider the faulty intelligence that got us into Iraq.

    Never expect The Defender to own up to mistakes. The buck stops somewhere else.

  394. 394.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 2:14 pm

    What is your definition of ‘winning’ in Iraq?

    Good question. I haven’t heard a concise explanation, even from all the Dems who voted to go into Iraq. My opinion, victory would mean ensuring that we leave in place a democratic government including functioning democratic systems.. a govt which does not support terrorists, and which does not willingly provide a haven for terrorists.

  395. 395.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 2:16 pm

    Your family is hiring illegal aliens insted of Americans to work their fields, and I’m the asshole?

    OK. They are workers with H2A worker visas. The wages are set by the government. The employer has to provide housing, and pay taxes and worker’s comp. At the end of the season, they return to Mexico until the next summer.

    So yes, that makes you the asshole.

  396. 396.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 2:18 pm

    Cronyism, big government handouts, and massive expansion of government at the behest of business has not had an effect on wages

    What economic ‘cronyism’ are you referring to? And I certainly am not in favor of big govt handouts, especially the enormous Agriculture subsidies. But nice strawman, with bonus points for parroting the leftwingnut phrase “The Decider” once again.

  397. 397.

    Ryan S.

    May 18, 2006 at 2:20 pm

    The working man has his wages depressed by an out-of-control illegal immigration problem. Last I checked, it was pretty much all Dems who voted against the wall along the border, and it’s almost always Dems (though not all) who scream how immigration control is ‘racist’. All out of support for working Americans no doubt

    That is only a small side issue, the fact is the ‘working man’ wages are down because labor, in the world as a whole, is cheap.

  398. 398.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 2:21 pm

    My opinion, victory would mean ensuring that we leave in place a democratic government including functioning democratic systems.. a govt which does not support terrorists, and which does not willingly provide a haven for terrorists.

    This means nothing unless you have a stable liberal democracy in place, and that means a government that can defend itself against inurgencies.

    No such government has ever existed in an Arab country, unless you count Lebanon, and you can only count it in very recent history. Whether it succeeds or not remains to be seen. And you might want to examine the history of strife that it took to reach that point.

    There is no reason based on history to think that Iraq will end up with that stable liberal democracy. There was no reason to think so four years ago, either. All claims to the contrary are just like everything you say here … pure bullshit. Speculation, imagination, proof by assertion.

    The very things you jump all over if they support an argument counter to yours.

  399. 399.

    Perry Como

    May 18, 2006 at 2:21 pm

    AN APOLOGY FROM A BUSH VOTER

    Katrina, Harriet Myers, The Dubai Port Deal, skyrocketing gas prices, shrinking wages for working people, staggering debt, astronomical foreign debt, outsourcing, open borders, contempt for the opinion of the American people, the war on science, media manipulation, faith based initives, a cavalier attitude toward fundamental freedoms– this President has run the most arrogant and out-of-touch administration in my lifetime, perhaps, in any American’s lifetime.

    Doug McIntyre, not a Defender.

  400. 400.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 2:23 pm

    OK. They are workers with H2A worker visas

    Fair enough. I see now that there are H2A programs for agricultural workers from south of the border who come here.

    So then, in the context of your concern over the working man, your family (legally according to you) hires Mexican nationals instead of Americans to work their farm.

  401. 401.

    srv

    May 18, 2006 at 2:26 pm

    And I certainly am not in favor of big govt handouts, especially the enormous Agriculture subsidies.

    Your favor is reflected in your vote.

    bonus points for parroting the leftwingnut phrase “The Decider” once again.

    leftwingnut phrase? Or moonbat? Is that you DJ? I know the meme is now that Bush is a liberal, but I haven’t heard anyone call him a leftwingnut yet.

  402. 402.

    Perry Como

    May 18, 2006 at 2:27 pm

    leftwingnut phrase “The Decider” once again.

    Then I guess President Bush is a leftwing nut. Keep Defending and don’t let those pesky facts get in the way. Things like having the pharmaceutical industry write prescription legislation didn’t really happen. No, the Federal government hasn’t greatly expanded under your guy’s watch. Keep Defending.

  403. 403.

    Pb

    May 18, 2006 at 2:28 pm

    Darrell,

    Well, carpenters were doing a bit better as of Nov 2004’s BLS Survey–$16.90 median hourly wage, $18.39 mean hourly wage. Whereas all occupations were $13.62 median, $17.28 mean, and construction as a whole was $14.59 median, $15.63 mean.

  404. 404.

    Pb

    May 18, 2006 at 2:33 pm

    ppGaz,

    You got it….

    Helpers–Carpenters

    Help carpenters by performing duties of lesser skill. Duties include using, supplying or holding materials or tools, and cleaning work area and equipment.

    Oh, and… nowadays they generally make more than $10/hr, too, even according to the BLS…

  405. 405.

    demimondian

    May 18, 2006 at 2:37 pm

    You know what? I’m going out on a limb here.

    I’m in favor of immigrant amnesty.

    In twenty years, no matter what the United States does or does not do, the flow of immigrants from Mexico will slow, and, eventually, reverse, just as it has from Ireland. There’s nothing we can do to stop the flow before then, and no enforcement steps will even shorten the time until the flow slows.

    That’s not to say we can’t do things to slow the flow. We can, and they’re cheap and effective: help the Mexican government make the lives of women better by maintaining legal abortion and by making contraception more readily available there.

  406. 406.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 2:41 pm

    Good question. I haven’t heard a concise explanation, even from all the Dems who voted to go into Iraq. My opinion, victory would mean ensuring that we leave in place a democratic government including functioning democratic systems.. a govt which does not support terrorists, and which does not willingly provide a haven for terrorists.

    Dems? Heh.

    democratic government including functioning democratic systems

    Losing miserably. We will eventually blame this on the Iraqis.

    Democracy is not voting. Democracy is a system that respects voting, and has several peaceful transfers of power. If we leave a democratic government, we will have been there a generation, at least. You can’t build a democracy in a few short years, it takes generational change.

    There are few places on earth less prepared for democracy than Iraq.

    Basra has become the stomping ground for the Shiite militias that run the city. Wealthy Basranians are moving to Baghdad due to the violence. It resembles Taliban era Afghanistan.

    The Kurdish north is going to accept nothing less than full autonomy, and Kirkuk’s oil. That is a backburner issue right now because the region is calm. We will return to the Kurds momentarily.

    The Sunnis are the losers in a new democracy, and they have guns. And C4.

    a govt which does not support terrorists, and which does not willingly provide a haven for terrorists.

    It’s all about the terrorists isn’t it?

    There’s more to winning than a democratic government that doesn’t support terrorists.

    We also have to leave the region secure. Meaning:

    – Iraq must not dissolve into civil war, which it is on the verge of doing
    – Iran, Turkey, and Syria must not escalate tensions with their Kurdish minorities
    – We can’t be seen as the evil empire by the region

    Mainly, this can not turn into a destabilizing force throughout the ME. Iraqi on Iraqi fighting must cease for us to be successful. I don’t see how you think that is going to happen. We can’t stop it. We don’t even know who is fighting who.

    If we don’t rebuild the country, there will be terrorists from Iraq. There will be terrorists from Iraq regardless. We blew up their country. There are some people in Iraq that will not forgive us, ever. Radical influences have been unleashed into the country that were bottled up under Saddam. Scorpion’s Gate is an interesting read. One point he makes is that he met several groups on his first visit that were secular. When he spoke with them a year later they were on a jihad.

    We aren’t rebuilding. When we do, insurgents and terrorists blow it up.

  407. 407.

    John S.

    May 18, 2006 at 2:41 pm

    – I ALWAYS question preconceived notions, especially when they are put forth by people who can’t back them up.

    Too bad I backed up my point with several links and citations, a favor you are incapable of returning.

    Nothing wrong with a little heated debate, you just need to go into it with an open mind and recognize when you aren’t making good points, and adapt with the flow.

    Take your own advice.

    Or keep insisting that ‘tar baby’ doesn’t have any negative racial context other than that ginned up by PC nannies.

    The choice is entirely yours.

  408. 408.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 2:42 pm

    Well, carpenters were doing a bit better as of Nov 2004’s BLS Survey—$16.90 median hourly wage,

    Good point, they’re making $0.80/hour more now.

  409. 409.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 2:48 pm

    So then, in the context of your concern over the working man, your family (legally according to you) hires Mexican nationals instead of Americans to work their farm

    Yes, according to me (jackass), they go through the hassle of government paperwork, to hire H2A workers with government set wages and house them. They pay full taxes and worker’s comp.

    It is cheaper to hire and house these workers than to hire locals.

    That isn’t entirely true, because no locals want the jobs. Not even at $10+ an hour.

    I don’t think you realize how few people are willing to feed hogs at 5 a.m. Or to squat for 12 hours pulling plants. Or to climb into the top of a barn all day and hand up spikes of tobacco. Or to stand for 12 hours in a stripping room.

    They hire Mexicans because it is absolutely the only way they can find the number of farm hands they need to get through the season. They DO hire every local kid or young man willing to do the job, for more than they pay the Mexican workers.

  410. 410.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 2:50 pm

    Losing miserably. We will eventually blame this on the Iraqis.

    I think by most accounts, there has been a lot of progress in establishing a democratic govt. There are problems, and their is a long road ahead, but nothing to justify your chicken little characterizations. I believe it has made faster progress toward elections than either Japan or Germany after WWII. Afghanistan has similar tribal problems, but you support that one, right?

    It’s all about the terrorists isn’t it?

    There’s more to winning than a democratic government that doesn’t support terrorists

    I, and I think most other Americans, are most concerned that Iraq doesn’t turn into another terrorist haven situation like we had in Afghanistan

  411. 411.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 2:54 pm

    “Carpenter” is pretty loosely defined. It’s basically anybody who can put on a tool belt and knows which end of the hammer to hold onto.

    A “skilled carpenter” around here is a guy who can build you something, unsupervised, and have it pass inspection when he’s done. Those guys here are getting $25-45 an hour. And not only that, they are in considerable demand.

    The construction trades here are booming big time.

    Did I mention? I’m in the biggest city in the state with the most Border Patrol interdictions in the country.

  412. 412.

    The Other Steve

    May 18, 2006 at 2:57 pm

    I would like to go out on a limb here and state that I am for most Agricultural subsidies, as I believe they are important for the national defense.

    Now ideally, I would prefer it instead if we paid real cost of production prices through the supply chain. But given that we’re not doing that, we don’t have much of a choice… if the farmers go under we will become more reliant upon foreign food sources.

    It’s worse than being reliant upon foreign oil, especially when this country has the most productive farm land in the entire world.

    Also there is an environmental impact from moving from small farms to large corporate farms.

    And in the grand scheme of things, the farm handouts aren’t that big compared to what we hand out to other industries.

  413. 413.

    John S.

    May 18, 2006 at 2:58 pm

    I believe it has made faster progress toward elections than either Japan or Germany after WWII.

    Ooh, I like Darrell’s False Analogy Hyperbole ® game! Let me see if I can give it a whirl…

    I believe France made faster progress toward democracy than either Athens or Sparta after the Peloponnesian Wars.

    Anyone else want to play?

  414. 414.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 3:01 pm

    I, and I think most other Americans, are most concerned that Iraq doesn’t turn into another terrorist haven situation like we had in Afghanistan

    Including me. The point I made was that there is more to it than that. In fact, being a terrorist haven is a byproduct of everything else. If we rebuild the nation, leave a functioning government, build an army, build a police force, etc, there won’t be a terrorist haven. But, your goal can’t be to not leave a terrorist haven.

    I think by most accounts, there has been a lot of progress in establishing a democratic govt.

    There has been progress building a government. A democratic government takes a generation to take hold. It must survive several elections, followed by transfers or power, to be a democratic government. They must uphold their constitution to become a nation of laws. They must be faced with Constitutional issues, decide to abide by the constitution, and do so peacefully.

    You see my concerns as ‘chicken little’, but I see your belief that democracy is just around the corner as ‘pie in the sky.’

    To form a democracy, each segment of society has to see the government as legitimate. Sunnis have to accept living under Shia rule, or vice versa. The Sunni, Shia, and Kurds all have to see the solution of the Kurdish region as legitimate. There has been no solution offered as of yet, much less accepted.

    That is why I am saying that we must stay a generation to ensure a democratic future, and that isn’t feasible.

  415. 415.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 3:01 pm

    “Carpenter” is pretty loosely defined

    Well, the BLS says that average ‘carpenters’make $16/hr and change in the Phoenix area, considerably more than other carpentry professions in that same area such as “Bench carpenters” or helpers. That some carpenters may make more, means that others make a bit less. Carpenter’s helpers average under $9/hr in Phoenix according to the BLS

  416. 416.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 3:04 pm

    I would like to go out on a limb here and state that I am for most Agricultural subsidies

    I can’t say i am for or against across the board, but I am against them going disproportionately to corporate farms.

    Also there is an environmental impact from moving from small farms to large corporate farms.

    Amen.

  417. 417.

    Pb

    May 18, 2006 at 3:04 pm

    Darrell,

    they’re making $0.80/hour more now

    A 5% raise isn’t so bad, and that was only up until 2004. It’ll be interesting to see what effects Katrina had on their salaries. Well, that, and the temporary suspension of the Davis-Bacon act.

  418. 418.

    Mr Furious

    May 18, 2006 at 3:06 pm

    I, and I think most other Americans, are most concerned that Iraq doesn’t turn into another terrorist haven situation like we had in Afghanistan

    So, is more or less likely now? If that’s all you were worried about, we were better off with Saddam in power.

  419. 419.

    Mr Furious

    May 18, 2006 at 3:08 pm

    I can’t say i am for or against across the board, but I am against them going disproportionately to corporate farms.

    Me too.

  420. 420.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 3:08 pm

    There has been progress building a government. A democratic government takes a generation to take hold. It must survive several elections, followed by transfers or power, to be a democratic government. They must uphold their constitution to become a nation of laws. They must be faced with Constitutional issues, decide to abide by the constitution, and do so peacefully

    That was actually well written.. I agree entirely with that statement. Problem is, you were not arguing that Iraq’s democratic reforms are unproven, you pronounced them to be miserable failures. Can we agree that it’s too early to tell, but there are many hopeful signs?

    To form a democracy, each segment of society has to see the government as legitimate. Sunnis have to accept living under Shia rule, or vice versa

    Sunni vote turnout was significantly higher than in the first election, no? And that’s not a great sign?

    I don’t think we should stay in the numbers we’re there now, for an entire generation as you say we need to. But I’m not going to say you’re wrong about that requirement either.. Time will tell, but progress is being made

  421. 421.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 3:13 pm

    Can we agree that it’s too early to tell, but there are many hopeful signs?

    It is not too early to say that the outcome is probably going to be bad. Unfavorable to American interests, at best.

    There is no reason to think otherwise. The government there is nothing more than a few people meeting in a room. The government can’t take care of itself, its infrastructure, its defense. It can’t assume the loyalty or submission of its people. It is entirely dependent on the American presence. It exists in a bubble.

    Congressman Murtha accurately described the country, on Hardball this week: It’s chaos. Plain and simple.

  422. 422.

    McNulty

    May 18, 2006 at 3:16 pm

    I can’t believe I’m about to agree with ppGaz on something, and I’m heading right to the bar when i get done typing this to try and forget about the fact that i just did, but those hourly wages for carpenters seem unbelievably low.

    I have a friend who’s a union carpenter here in Philly, and the guy makes at least $35 an hour. I handle his personal insurance and investments, as well as doing his taxes, so i have a fairly good idea how he’s doing.

    I’m sure some non-union carpenters and contractors here make significantly less, but they don’t get much work since anyone who hires non-union labor in this town will probably have bricks thrown at them and their buildings.

  423. 423.

    John S.

    May 18, 2006 at 3:16 pm

    Can we agree that it’s too early to tell, but there are many hopeful signs?

    If we throw a man of the Empire State building, can we agree that it’s too early to tell what will happen to him?

    He could genetically mutate and grow wings on the way down or a flying saucer could fly under him and give him a lift. But we can’t say for sure that he will meet his demise at the bottom. We just don’t have enough information.

  424. 424.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 3:19 pm

    If that’s all you were worried about, we were better off with Saddam in power

    Saddam was working with Al Queda and was supporting other terrorist groups.

  425. 425.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 3:21 pm

    Darrell,

    I never said that there were no good signs. People turned out to vote, that was great. They did so at considerable risk to their lives. Many people in iraq, maybe even a large majority would be willing to create a multicultural government and get back to their daily lives in peace.

    Just because I point out the negative signs, doesn’t mean that I am saying that nothing good has happened. It has. But, here comes the but you knew was coming……..

    Only the Iraqis can form a democracy. We can’t do it for them. We definitely can’t force them to do it. Problem is that I don’t think they want it. Some do, most may, but that isn’t good enough.

    There are too many Sunnis with guns that won’t live under what they see as Shia rule. There are enough Shia that see their majority as a right to rule. Kurds won’t accept anything less than autonomy. Too many religious leaders insist on Sharia rule (Sunni or Shia).

    Sectarian violence is increasing, not decreasing. Islamic rule is increasing, not decreasing, and it was not a problem before the war.

    Assassination and torture is rampant. Bodies are found laid on the street every morning in several cities.

    The South has gone from the peaceful Shia area to a shithole. It is Talibanish at this point.

    Liquor stores are firebombed.

    The formation of a government is not going to change any of this. We seem to be under the belief that when the government forms, the violence will stop. The fighting has nothing to do with the political incompetence.

  426. 426.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 3:27 pm

    That some carpenters may make more, means that others make a bit less. Carpenter’s helpers average under $9/hr in Phoenix according to the BLS

    A carpenter’s helper need be nothing more than a kid who stacks the construction debris and coils up the extension cords. It’s basically the same thing as minimum wage unskilled labor at Burger King. The helper doesn’t need to bring any particular skills to the job. The work he does has little to do with carpentry and a lot to do with janitorial and common labor. Unloading lumber is not carpentry. Sweeping is not carpentry.

    A skilled carpenter is a worker who knows how to build, mostly without supervision. He can read plans and blueprints, and plan out a job of work and carry it out to code and to inspection. He can go to work today in Phoenix for over $20 an hour and within 90 days, if he proves himself, be making $30 an hour or more on twenty different jobsites here. There are jobs here that can’t get completed because the skilled carpenters are too scarce. Building with under $20 “skilled” workers is too risky even for the scofflaws. It costs a lot of money to take down half a building and do it over; it’s cheaper to pay the going rate for the skilled labor in the first place. You can’t build tract homes here with $14 an hour carpenters. You might have some of those on your site, but they are doing the stuff that the $25-$35/hr types don’t want to do or don’t need to be doing.

    $14 an hour is poverty wages for a breadwinner. No “skilled carpenters” are building in this country for poverty wages unless they choose to be for some reason.

  427. 427.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 3:28 pm

    I have a friend who’s a union carpenter here in Philly, and the guy makes at least $35 an hour. I handle his personal insurance and investments, as well as doing his taxes, so i have a fairly good idea how he’s doing

    In the context of a discussion on the wage effects of illegal immigration in which actual BLS wage data has been presented, exactly how does the wage of 1 carpenter in Philly, a union member in a town not experiencing the illegal immigration problem like Phoenix.. what does that have to do with anything?

  428. 428.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 3:29 pm

    never said that there were no good signs. People turned out to vote, that was great.

    Those people want a government. The problem is, they don’t have one.

    Big difference.

  429. 429.

    a guy called larry

    May 18, 2006 at 3:29 pm

    Anyone else want to play?

    I’m in. Iraq is making faster progress in developing functioning democratic systems than Cuba did after the Spanish-American War; after 108 years and counting, they still don’t have any.

  430. 430.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 3:32 pm

    Assassination and torture is rampant. Bodies are found laid on the street every morning in several cities.

    Is it still “rampant”? Because there have been instances of torture and assassination, does that mean it is still rampant? this is what I mean by your chicken little attitude. If you have numbers and facts to back it up, I’ll gladly eat crow. But I think you’re way far into chicken little-land with that kind of talk

  431. 431.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 3:35 pm

    what does that have to do with anything?

    Get out of your fucking day room and go out and visit some jobsites, Darrell, and get your big stupid head out of your ass.

    Skilled carpenters are not working for $14/hr in this country unless they want to, no matter what you say.

    Go out and look around and find out for yourself. You have no idea what you are talking about. You wouldn’t know a skilled carpenter if one fucked you in the ass.

  432. 432.

    McNulty

    May 18, 2006 at 3:35 pm

    Darrell, you’re one of the few sane people here, so get me started, but it’s not just one union carpenter. He’s been in the union seven years, so there are obviously people making far more than him.

    And, a recent Day Without an Immigrant rally in Philly turned out around 3,000 people at Independance Hall. Just because Philly is nowhere near the border, doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a huge influx of illegal immigrants and all the problems that go with it.

    There are huge Mexican neighborhoods in South Philly that used to be predominantly Italian.

  433. 433.

    Perry Como

    May 18, 2006 at 3:35 pm

    Saddam was working with Al Queda

    Bwahahahaha.

  434. 434.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 3:39 pm

    I believe it has made faster progress toward elections than either Japan or Germany after WWII.

    Elections, not democracy.

    Of course, the comparison of post-WWII Germany and Japan to Iraq is not useful.

    Germany and Japan were each single party states, there was no internal fighting going on. When the armies were defeated, the wars were over. When the governments were captured or surrended, the wars were over.

    Civil war was never an issue.

  435. 435.

    John S.

    May 18, 2006 at 3:39 pm

    Iraq is making faster progress in developing functioning democratic systems than Cuba did after the Spanish-American War; after 108 years and counting, they still don’t have any.

    Good one!

    Iraq is making faster progress towards a representative government following the removal of a dictator than Iran did following the toppling of the Shah.

  436. 436.

    Mr Furious

    May 18, 2006 at 3:40 pm

    Yeah, I set it on a tee for him…

  437. 437.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 3:41 pm

    McNulty Says:

    Darrell, you’re one of the few sane people here, so get me started, but it’s not just one union carpenter

    McNulty, first, I’m not sure if the unions pay “way more” in carpenter wages for someone with 7 years experience vs. 15, for example. More importantly, BLS has the actual wage data. I’m not saying there are no illegal immigrants in Philly. I am saying that it’s not nearly the problem, percentage wise, that we’re seeing in Texas, Arizona, or California.

    The BLS data averages in the (higher wage)union workers with non-union, and reports the mean and median numbers.

  438. 438.

    John S.

    May 18, 2006 at 3:41 pm

    Darrell, you’re one of the few sane people here

    That’s the best laugh I’ve had all day! Thanks, McNulty.

  439. 439.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 3:47 pm

    Germany and Japan were each single party states, there was no internal fighting going on. When the armies were defeated, the wars were over. When the governments were captured or surrended, the wars were over.

    Civil war was never an issue.

    Fair point. Ethnic and tribal violence is definitely a wild card issue which could blow up in our face. But from what I see, Sunnis are increasingly taking up their gripes through the political system. Also, there was an article I read recently about how some Sunni leaders are putting pressure on their followers not to attack American forces or Shia.. the logic being that they are worried about Iranian Shia influences, and they don’t want to give the Iranians another excuse (Sunnis murdering Shias) to interfere in their Iraqi affairs.

  440. 440.

    McNulty

    May 18, 2006 at 3:48 pm

    No problem, John S. I knew that would get a reaction.

  441. 441.

    Gratefulcub

    May 18, 2006 at 3:53 pm

    does that mean it is still rampant?

    What do you consider rampant?

    To me, if there are daily body collections of assassinated bodies, that is rampant. We don’t hear about the vans being found filled with bodies anymore, but that is becuase it is old news. There is daily collection of bodies.

    7-800 a month are being assassinated in Basra.

    I know you don’t like Juan Cole, and i understand why. But, if you go to his site, and click through the links, you will get reports of daily violence from ME news agencies and Reuters.

  442. 442.

    McNulty

    May 18, 2006 at 3:53 pm

    http://philadelphiaweekly.com/view.php?id=11927

    Here’s a link for ya, Darrell. I always fuck up links on my laptop, and i’m not trying to sell Philly’s cred as an illegal immigration hotbed, but read this if you don’t think there are enough illegals here to have an effect on wages.

  443. 443.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 4:00 pm

    but read this if you don’t think there are enough illegals here to have an effect on wages.

    From the article:

    Today the undocumented Mexican community of South Philadelphia is about 12,000 strong.

    Out of a population of 2 million or so?

  444. 444.

    McNulty

    May 18, 2006 at 4:05 pm

    That’s just South Philly. That doesn’t take into account other neighborhoods in the city, no Camden, NJ, which also has a huge illegal population.

    I’m not arguing it’s the same here as California or Texas or Arizona.

  445. 445.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 4:05 pm

    7-800 a month are being assassinated in Basra.

    I’d like to see a link which supports those numbers… but it does seem that the American troops are much better than the Brits in controlling the violence.

  446. 446.

    McNulty

    May 18, 2006 at 4:06 pm

    Sorry, meant to also say that most illegals in Camden work in Philly.

  447. 447.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 4:09 pm

    Help Wanted, General Labor to $10/hr, right out of the Houston Chronicle.

    Have ya seen “general labor,” Darrell? Not exactly a high-skill position. If you are healthy, pass a piss test, and have transportation to the job, you’re hired.

    In other words, it’s like your job.

  448. 448.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 4:15 pm

    Help Wanted, General Labor to $10/hr, right out of the Houston Chronicle

    You had to dig to find that one. If anyone does a search at chron.com for ‘general labor’, the first page they get, there is only one ad displaying wages for general laborers, and that ad says $6-8/hr.

    I show BLS wage data. In rebuttal, ppg lies his ass off

  449. 449.

    chriskoz

    May 18, 2006 at 4:26 pm

    Saddam was working with Al Queda

    That is something that I thought only a jackass like Dick “head-shot” Cheney would be stupid enough to still claim is true.

    When someone claims something so verifiably wrong as that, I generally disregard anything else they have to say unless they can provide factual proof.

    And no, saying…

    But I know its true

    doesn’t count.

  450. 450.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 4:28 pm

    You had to dig to find that one

    Dig? I found it in one minute flat at chron.com

    Like I said, there are no “skilled carpenters” working for $14/hr in Houston unless they choose to for some reason.

    And you what else, Darrell? I’ll wager that not many of your “skilled carpenters” are undocumented immigrants.

    Probably close to zero. Skilled carpenters work a long time getting to that level, they are not getting that designation by taking day jobs at the Home Depot parking lot.

    Again you have no idea what you are talking about. Just like last year when you floated this same turd in here about immigrants and cheap Houston trade pay.

    It’s bullshit.

  451. 451.

    The Other Steve

    May 18, 2006 at 4:45 pm

    Probably close to zero. Skilled carpenters work a long time getting to that level, they are not getting that designation by taking day jobs at the Home Depot parking lot.

    That’s the thing I find disappointing about our Home Depot.

    There isn’t anybody waiting around looking for work.

    How am I possibly going to be able to profit from hiring illegals if we don’t have any?

  452. 452.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 5:29 pm

    There isn’t anybody waiting around looking for work.

    Duh, because they froze to death.

  453. 453.

    RonB

    May 18, 2006 at 5:37 pm

    Ethnic and tribal violence is definitely a wild card issue which could blow up in our face.

    Isn’t it a little late to warm up to this idea?

    Also, there was an article I read recently about how some Sunni leaders are putting pressure on their followers not to attack American forces or Shia.. the logic being that they are worried about Iranian Shia influences, and they don’t want to give the Iranians another excuse (Sunnis murdering Shias) to interfere in their Iraqi affairs.

    Keep living in that bubble. That kind of bullshit analysis is so easy even Victor Davis Hanson can get paid for it. Anyone can say something “logical”. Whether it describes reality correctly is another thing. What’s real is there has been vicious sectarian killings daily, and we are on our way to one of our bloodiest months of the occupation-losing an average of three soldiers a day. No appreciable change in the situation, man. How many times are you going to get fooled with these “ray of hope” analyses before you wake up?

  454. 454.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 5:42 pm

    For anyone { cough Darrell} who wants to play the Dr. Pangloss version of “Iraq the Beautiful”, this compendium of Friedmanisms over the years (Friedman, the eternal jackass optimist):

    YOu may want to swallow your food and beverage first, lest ye spit it all over your keyboard:

    On a recent episode of MSNBC’s Hardball (5/11/06), for example, Friedman boiled down the intricacies of the Iraq situation into a make-or-break deadline: “Well, I think that we’re going to find out, Chris, in the next year to six months—probably sooner—whether a decent outcome is possible there, and I think we’re going to have to just let this play out.”

    That confident prediction would seem a lot more insightful, however, if Friedman hadn’t been making essentially the same forecast almost since the beginning of the Iraq War. A review of Friedman’s punditry reveals a long series of similar do-or-die dates that never seem to get any closer.

    “The next six months in Iraq—which will determine the prospects for democracy-building there—are the most important six months in U.S. foreign policy in a long, long time.”
    (New York Times, 11/30/03)

    “What I absolutely don’t understand is just at the moment when we finally have a UN-approved Iraqi-caretaker government made up of—I know a lot of these guys—reasonably decent people and more than reasonably decent people, everyone wants to declare it’s over. I don’t get it. It might be over in a week, it might be over in a month, it might be over in six months, but what’s the rush? Can we let this play out, please?”
    (NPR’s Fresh Air, 6/3/04)

    “What we’re gonna find out, Bob, in the next six to nine months is whether we have liberated a country or uncorked a civil war.”
    (CBS’s Face the Nation, 10/3/04)

    “Improv time is over. This is crunch time. Iraq will be won or lost in the next few months. But it won’t be won with high rhetoric. It will be won on the ground in a war over the last mile.”
    (New York Times, 11/28/04)

    “I think we’re in the end game now…. I think we’re in a six-month window here where it’s going to become very clear and this is all going to pre-empt I think the next congressional election—that’s my own feeling— let alone the presidential one.”
    (NBC’s Meet the Press, 9/25/05)

    “Maybe the cynical Europeans were right. Maybe this neighborhood is just beyond transformation. That will become clear in the next few months as we see just what kind of minority the Sunnis in Iraq intend to be. If they come around, a decent outcome in Iraq is still possible, and we should stay to help build it. If they won’t, then we are wasting our time.”
    (New York Times, 9/28/05)

    “We’ve teed up this situation for Iraqis, and I think the next six months really are going to determine whether this country is going to collapse into three parts or more or whether it’s going to come together.”
    (CBS’s Face the Nation, 12/18/05)

    “We’re at the beginning of I think the decisive I would say six months in Iraq, OK, because I feel like this election—you know, I felt from the beginning Iraq was going to be ultimately, Charlie, what Iraqis make of it.”
    (PBS’s Charlie Rose Show, 12/20/05)

    “The only thing I am certain of is that in the wake of this election, Iraq will be what Iraqis make of it—and the next six months will tell us a lot. I remain guardedly hopeful.”
    (New York Times, 12/21/05)

    “I think that we’re going to know after six to nine months whether this project has any chance of succeeding. In which case, I think the American people as a whole will want to play it out or whether it really is a fool’s errand.”
    (Oprah Winfrey Show, 1/23/06)

    “I think we’re in the end game there, in the next three to six months, Bob. We’ve got for the first time an Iraqi government elected on the basis of an Iraqi constitution. Either they’re going to produce the kind of inclusive consensual government that we aspire to in the near term, in which case America will stick with it, or they’re not, in which case I think the bottom’s going to fall out.”
    (CBS, 1/31/06)

    “I think we are in the end game. The next six to nine months are going to tell whether we can produce a decent outcome in Iraq.”
    (NBC’s Today, 3/2/06)

    “Can Iraqis get this government together? If they do, I think the American public will continue to want to support the effort there to try to produce a decent, stable Iraq. But if they don’t, then I think the bottom is going to fall out of public support here for the whole Iraq endeavor. So one way or another, I think we’re in the end game in the sense it’s going to be decided in the next weeks or months whether there’s an Iraq there worth investing in. And that is something only Iraqis can tell us.”
    (CNN, 4/23/06)

    “Well, I think that we’re going to find out, Chris, in the next year to six months—probably sooner—whether a decent outcome is possible there, and I think we’re going to have to just let this play out.”
    (MSNBC’s Hardball, 5/11/06)

  455. 455.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 5:44 pm

    What’s real is there has been vicious sectarian killings daily, and we are on our way to one of our bloodiest months of the occupation-losing an average of three soldiers a day. No appreciable change in the situation, man. How many times are you going to get fooled with these “ray of hope” analyses before you wake up?

    The sky is falling! There are no signs of hope. No progress being made!

  456. 456.

    RonB

    May 18, 2006 at 5:51 pm

    Is it still “rampant”? Because there have been instances of torture and assassination, does that mean it is still rampant? this is what I mean by your chicken little attitude. If you have numbers and facts to back it up, I’ll gladly eat crow. But I think you’re way far into chicken little-land with that kind of talk

    Get a big fork for that crow, Darrell.

  457. 457.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 5:53 pm

    Sorry, I forgot: The Friedmanisms are from Eric Alterman, at MSNBC.

  458. 458.

    RonB

    May 18, 2006 at 5:54 pm

    No progress being made!

    Nope, not really, pal.

  459. 459.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 5:54 pm

    If Darrell actually ate crow every time he was wrong here, he’d be killing more poultry than the Bird Flu.

  460. 460.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 5:59 pm

    Get a big fork for that crow, Darrell.

    Nice link, but it shows 1 – 5 civilian death(s) for the month of May in the city of Basra, which sounds low btw. My quote which you highlighted was in response to this statement from gratefulcub

    7-800 a month are being assassinated in Basra.

    I’ll eat crow if you can show me that Basra is taking 700+ assassinations each month as cub claimed.

  461. 461.

    Perry Como

    May 18, 2006 at 5:59 pm

    If Darrell actually ate crow every time he was wrong here, he’d be killing more poultry than the Bird Flu.

    That was a fowl joke.

  462. 462.

    RonB

    May 18, 2006 at 5:59 pm

    PPGaz, excellent example of the “ray of hope” punditry I was talking about. See what I’m saying, Darrell? This opining is worthless.

  463. 463.

    RonB

    May 18, 2006 at 6:02 pm

    Sometimes I read the threads backwards, because Ive missed so much of it. I didn’t realize what you were responding to there, sorry about that. But honestly, you must admit the situation is grimmer than you are suggesting.

  464. 464.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 6:06 pm

    But honestly, you must admit the situation is grimmer than you are suggesting.

    But honestly, you must admit the situation is much better than you are suggesting. See how easy that is?

    Look you’re making these sweeping proclamations with no facts or argument to back it up, or honest acknowledgement on progress which has been made, then you demand that I “honestly” admit you’re right. Give me a break

  465. 465.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 6:06 pm

    I think we’ll find out in the next six-nine months whether Darrell will eat the crow, or not. We just have to let it play out.

  466. 466.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 6:09 pm

    See how easy that is?

    Sure. You do that crap every day here.

    We know it by heart.

  467. 467.

    RonB

    May 18, 2006 at 6:17 pm

    Look you’re making these sweeping proclamations with no facts or argument to back it up,

    I thought I just did, but Im beginning to get used to this from you. Youre like an endless looping program.

    or honest acknowledgement on progress which has been made

    Speak it, Darrell. Tell us what progress has been made. Try not to make a fool of yourself trying to talk about the “government”, ok?

  468. 468.

    RonB

    May 18, 2006 at 6:25 pm

    I understand, Darrell. You don’t hear anything we are saying because we are all leftists to you and we know how you feel about them. The message is instantly tainted just by virtue of the messenger’s identity.

    Your chosen messengers are spinning you like a top.

  469. 469.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 6:32 pm

    Tell us what progress has been made. Try not to make a fool of yourself trying to talk about the “government”, ok?

    One ‘small’ accomplishment is that Iraq no longer has a murderous sociopath running the country who invaded two neighbors and supported terrorists…

    I understand security for most of the country has been turned over to Iraqi forces w/coalition troops on an as-needed basis only. Two national elections with high voter turnout under threats of violence. Sunnis voting in significantly higher percentages indicating they also are willing to try and solve issues via a political route, rather than violence. The economy in Iraq is doing considerably better and the people have access to basic govt services that weren’t available to them under Saddam, reducing the frustration level for unrest

    Now tell us why the sky is falling in Iraq.. and try not to make a fool of yourself trying to quote Juan Cole

  470. 470.

    John S.

    May 18, 2006 at 6:33 pm

    Well, last year around this time, 800 a month was in fact the reported norm:

    Iraqi civilians and police officers caught up in insurgent attacks died at a rate of more than 800 a month from August through May, according to figures released in June by the Interior Ministry.

    Source

    Also, if one examines the chart provided at Iraq Body Count, the last full month of data listed is December 2005 with a toll of over 900. The average going back to 2004 is right around that, if not slightly higher.

    On their most recent updated database, their are a mere 120 deaths reported as a result of beheading, gunfire, execution or torture so far this month – and it’s already half over!

    I think Darrell is right. /wingnut

  471. 471.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 6:36 pm

    Your chosen messengers are spinning you like a top.

    Ron, is that you “speaking truth to power” or what? I’m not one endlessly repeating talking points fed to me by the spinmeisters.. “Clap louder”, “The Decider”, “Dear Leader”, etc, etc. Which side of the political spectrum is so enamored with such a barrage of mindless talking points? An honest answer to that question says it all, wouldn’t you agree?

  472. 472.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 6:43 pm

    I’m not one endlessly repeating talking points

    Amazing, isn’t he?

  473. 473.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 6:43 pm

    Speaking from London, Iraq Body Count cofounder John Sloboda said, “Today’s figures are an indictment of three years of occupation, which continues to make the lives of ordinary Iraqis worse, not better.

    Is this the ‘centrist’ source of information which you guys look to?

    Lives of ordinary Iraqis are worse now than under Saddam? How many of you stand by that sentiment?

  474. 474.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 6:59 pm

    Lives of ordinary Iraqis are worse now than under Saddam? How many of you stand by that sentiment?

    Well, saw figures (BBC) just the other day …. death rate among children in Basra now considerably higher than it was under the Hussein regime.

    Children dying in Iraq

    Local doctors quoted by SCW said the health situation had deteriorated markedly since the US-led invasion in 2003.

    “The mortality of children in Basra has increased by nearly 30% compared to the Saddam Hussein era,” said Dr Haydar Salah, a paediatrician at the Basra Children’s Hospital.

    “Children are dying daily, and no one is doing anything to help them.”

    For the past three years, the Maternity and Children’s’ hospital in Basra has not received any cancer drugs from the health ministry, Ms Fernandez said.

    When aid workers approach the government, they are told no funds are available, according to Iraqi NGO Keeping Children Alive.

    “They tell us we must wait for investment, which could take months,” said spokesman Khalid Alaa.

    A US military internal report has described the overall situation in Basra as “serious”.

  475. 475.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 7:02 pm

    Human rights abuses worse than under Saddam

    Human rights abuses in Iraq are now as bad as they were under Saddam Hussein and are even in danger of eclipsing his record, according to the country’s first Prime Minister after the fall of Saddam’s regime.
    ‘People are doing the same as [in] Saddam’s time and worse,’ Ayad Allawi told The Observer. ‘It is an appropriate comparison. People are remembering the days of Saddam. These were the precise reasons that we fought Saddam and now we are seeing the same things.’

    In a damning and wide-ranging indictment of Iraq’s escalating human rights catastrophe, Allawi accused fellow Shias in the government of being responsible for death squads and secret torture centres. The brutality of elements in the new security forces rivals that of Saddam’s secret police, he said.

    Allawi, who was a strong ally of the US-led coalition forces and was prime minister until this April, made his remarks as further hints emerged yesterday that President George Bush is planning to withdraw up to 40,000 US troops from the country next year, when Iraqi forces will be capable of taking over.

    Allawi’s bleak assessment is likely to undermine any attempt to suggest that conditions in Iraq are markedly improving.

  476. 476.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 7:09 pm

    Deep thoughts from the ever so pious left.

  477. 477.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 7:11 pm

    ppGaz Says:

    Human rights abuses worse than under Saddam

    You think so?

  478. 478.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 7:11 pm

    Let the record show that at 7:09 pm, Darrell retreated into “You lefties are all poppyheads” mode.

  479. 479.

    Perry Como

    May 18, 2006 at 7:12 pm

    Deep thoughts from the ever so pious left.

    Why do you hate religion?

  480. 480.

    John S.

    May 18, 2006 at 7:29 pm

    Deep thoughts from the ever so pious left.

    What have you brought to our attention, Darrell?

    People who are sorry that America was responsible for the death of thousands of Iraqis and want the bloodshed to end?

    OH THE HORROR!!!

    my eyes…damn my eyes…

  481. 481.

    John S.

    May 18, 2006 at 7:34 pm

    Darrell says:

    Lives of ordinary Iraqis are worse now than under Saddam? How many of you stand by that sentiment?

    Iraqi says:

    ‘People are doing the same as [in] Saddam’s time and worse,’ Ayad Allawi told The Observer. ‘It is an appropriate comparison. People are remembering the days of Saddam. These were the precise reasons that we fought Saddam and now we are seeing the same things.’

    Looks like Ayad Allawi just raised his hand, Darrell.

  482. 482.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 7:40 pm

    What have you brought to our attention, Darrell?

    People who are sorry that America was responsible for the death of thousands of Iraqis and want the bloodshed to end?

    Ah yes, the left’s long tradition of laying the blame on the US… in this case, blaming America rather than Saddam, Baathist murderers, or child killing terrorists.

  483. 483.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 7:45 pm

    Darrell isn’t listening, John.

    To him, this is all about something called “the left.”

    Iraq, gay bashing …it’s all a blur. The only thing that matters is The Left.

    It’s what Darrell is. It’s what he does.

  484. 484.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 7:49 pm

    Looks like Ayad Allawi just raised his hand, Darrell.

    Yes of course, and what did Allawi do about all this torture back when he was Prime Minister? What? You mean he never said a thing about it until he lost an election?

    Saddam butchered 10’s of thousands at a time. The comparison is absurd. But you don’t understand that you’re nothing a tool who parrots what he’s told without thinking why it makes no sense.

  485. 485.

    John S.

    May 18, 2006 at 8:06 pm

    Ah yes, the left’s long tradition of laying the blame on the US… in this case, blaming America rather than Saddam, Baathist murderers, or child killing terrorists.

    Ah yes, Darrell’s long tradition of preferring fiction to fact. Because none of the estimated 35161 – 39344 were deaths in Iraq that have resulted from the 2003 military intervention by the USA and its allies.

    You mean he never said a thing about it until he lost an election?

    Ah, so by your logic it must not be true. Interesting.

    Darrell says:

    The comparison is absurd.

    Ayad Allawi says:

    It is an appropriate comparison.

    I guess you know more about Iraq than the former Prime Minister does. Either that, or you’re nothing but a tool who parrots what he’s told without thinking why it makes no sense.

  486. 486.

    tBone

    May 18, 2006 at 8:07 pm

    But you don’t understand that you’re nothing a tool who parrots what he’s told without thinking why it makes no sense.

    Kettle: Jesus, I already know I’m black. Why does this guy keep calling me??

  487. 487.

    Darrell

    May 18, 2006 at 8:18 pm

    Kettle: Jesus, I already know I’m black. Why does this guy keep calling me??

    Clap harder tBone, clap harder for our Dear Leader!

  488. 488.

    tBone

    May 18, 2006 at 8:32 pm

    Clap harder tBone, clap harder for our Dear Leader!

    Unbelievable . . . you righties are kooks. Whatever you ‘feel’ must be true. It’s just who you are. I hope this information helps

    This is kind of fun.

  489. 489.

    Pb

    May 18, 2006 at 9:24 pm

    Darrell,

    But honestly, you must admit the situation is much better than you are suggesting. See how easy that is?

    Nope–no honesty involved there.

    Look you’re making these sweeping proclamations with no facts or argument to back it up

    Boy, that sounds familiar…

    then you demand that I “honestly” admit you’re right. Give me a break

    Yeah, I wouldn’t expect it from you either.

  490. 490.

    Pb

    May 18, 2006 at 9:41 pm

    And actually, Iraq Body Count’s estimates should only be used as an absolute lower bound, as they are all reported. Other estimates would put it in the low hundreds of thousands as of 2004 / 2005.

  491. 491.

    RonB

    May 18, 2006 at 9:53 pm

    Which side of the political spectrum is so enamored with such a barrage of mindless talking points?

    Um, both of them, Darrell?

  492. 492.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 9:56 pm

    This might be why Darrell suddenly stopped shooting off his mouth about this story today:

    CNN

    Thursday, May 18, 2006; Posted: 10:32 p.m. EDT (02:32 GMT)

    Rep. John Murtha says Marines went into homes and killed innocent Iraqi women and children.
    WASHINGTON (CNN) — A decorated Marine colonel turned anti-war congressman said Wednesday that Marines killed at least 30 innocent Iraqi civilians “in cold blood” in Haditha in November, suggesting the attack is twice as bad as originally reported.

    Rep. John Murtha, D-Pennsylvania, told reporters Wednesday that he got his information from U.S. commanders, who said the investigation will show that the Marines deliberately killed the civilians.

    The U.S. Marine Corps has declined to comment on the report, which initially stated that 15 were killed.

    “There was no firefight. There was no IED that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood,” Murtha said. (Watch Murtha level accusations against the Marines — 1:58)

    Murtha, who was decorated for his service in Vietnam, said the death toll may be more than twice as high as originally reported.

    “They actually went into the houses and killed women and children,” the congressman said.

    Citing an ongoing investigation, the Marine Corps said, “Any comment at this time would be inappropriate and could undermine the investigatory and possible legal process.”

    The Iraqi civilians were killed while troops from the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines were looking for insurgents who planted a roadside bomb that killed a member of their unit.

    At first, the Marines said the civilians were killed by a roadside bomb. Later, they suggested the victims may have been caught in a firefight.

    An Iraqi human rights group, Hammurabi Human Rights Association, caught the scene on video, which was obtained by Time magazine. A criminal investigation ensued.

    Time Warner is the parent company of Time magazine and CNN.

    Last month, the battalion commander and two company commanders were relieved of their commands and reassigned to staff jobs at Camp Pendleton in California.

    Sources close to the investigation said it is too soon to say whether anyone will face criminal charges, but key aspects of the original Marine account have not checked out.

    Murtha supported the invasion of Iraq in 2003, but last November, he distanced himself from the Bush administration and called for the withdrawal of U.S. troops because of what he called “a flawed policy wrapped in illusion.”

  493. 493.

    RonB

    May 18, 2006 at 10:08 pm

    I understand security for most of the country has been turned over to Iraqi forces w/coalition troops on an as-needed basis only.

    (sigh)the IA and the IP is infiltrated, and divided by sectaria hatred. We had to break up a clash between two IA units last week. Let me simplify that:

    THE IRAQ ARMY IS ATTACKING ITSELF. Police stations are being blown up daily.

    Two national elections with high voter turnout under threats of violence.

    Only because all traffic was banned in the cities. Let me simplfy that:

    WE HAD TO GET EVERYONE TO STOP DRIVING CARS TO HAVE NO INCIDENTS AT THE POLLS. And not only that, the voters elected en masse an Islamic Shia alliance that is allied with our new Great Satan, Iran.

    Sunnis voting in significantly higher percentages indicating they also are willing to try and solve issues via a political route, rather than violence.

    It doesnt indicate shit. There are tortured bodies found daily as a result of sectarian murders. I give a fuck what the vote indicates when the bodies are piling up.

    The economy in Iraq is doing considerably better and the people have access to basic govt services that weren’t available to them under Saddam

    Yeah, like lights and gasoline, right?(snicker)

    I don’t have to check Juan Cole. I read from multiple sources daily about this clusterfuck. You able to do the same?

  494. 494.

    Perry Como

    May 18, 2006 at 10:11 pm

    Well, Murtha is a well known military basher. Even worse, he’s a Liberal.

  495. 495.

    RonB

    May 18, 2006 at 10:11 pm

    PPGaz, now you know as well as I do that will not stop Darrell. Nothing has to date, why should this new fuckup?

  496. 496.

    ppGaz

    May 18, 2006 at 10:49 pm

    Nothing has to date, why should this new fuckup?

    No, you’re right, it won’t.

  497. 497.

    Darrell

    May 19, 2006 at 10:50 am

    THE IRAQ ARMY IS ATTACKING ITSELF

    So because there have been sectarian attacks, therefore the Iraqi army is imploding (without all caps). That’s a fair summary of your ‘logic’, is it not?.. And you consider yourself a ‘centrist’ right?

    Wouldn’t a more rational, fair-minded approach be to ask?: Are there more or less attacks on Iraqi police stations compared to 1 – 2 years ago? Is the Iraqi army more or less effective than it was just a year ago? Of course you don’t ask these questions, because truthful answers to those questions might interfere with your narrative of “all is lost” which you are pushing, facts be damned.

    Please don’t pretend you want to have an honest discussion.

  498. 498.

    John S.

    May 19, 2006 at 11:29 am

    Darrell-

    Are you still maintaining that you know more about the situation in Iraq than former Prime Minister Ayad Allawi?

    If so (which seems to be the case), please don’t pretend you want to have an honest discussion.

  499. 499.

    Darrell

    May 19, 2006 at 12:23 pm

    Darrell-

    Are you still maintaining that you know more about the situation in Iraq than former Prime Minister Ayad Allawi?

    As I pointed out above, how strange that Allawi suddenly makes a big deal out of abuses which went on WHILE HE WAS PRIME MINISTER. It’s entirely fair to question his timing and his credibility. Furthermore, he lost election after a number of allegations of corruption.

    I am not pretending to know more about Iraq than Allawi. But it’s clear he has some credibility problems.

    How honest of you, in the face of those questions, for you to frame the issue in terms of “who knows more, Darrell or former PM Allawi”.

    Do you see what a dishonest jackass you are? Seriously

  500. 500.

    John S.

    May 19, 2006 at 1:08 pm

    As I pointed out above, how strange that Allawi suddenly makes a big deal out of abuses which went on WHILE HE WAS PRIME MINISTER. It’s entirely fair to question his timing and his credibility.

    None of this is a basis to refute his claim. If anything, I’d be more inclined to believe that Allawi felt free to speak the truth once the American puppet strings wre cut.

    I am not pretending to know more about Iraq than Allawi.

    Sure you are. You are directly refuting Allawi’s statement, and can offer no further rationale than ‘he’s a lying politician’. Therefore, you are levelling an argument that Allawi is a dishonest liar whereas you are a pillar of truth.

    How honest of you in the face of the fact that you know nothing more about Iraq than what you are fed third hand by the media to question the former leader of that nation’s assessment of the situation in his own country. Particualrly when you have nothing but your ‘gut’ to back it up your claim.

    Do you see what a dishonest jackass you are? Seriously.

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