It looks like there is no such thing as Fitzmas:
The prosecutor in the C.I.A. leak case on Monday advised Karl Rove, the senior White House adviser, that he would not be charged with any wrongdoing, effectively ending the nearly three-year criminal investigation that had at times focused intensely on Mr. Rove.
The decision by the prosecutor, Patrick J. Fitzgerald, announced in a letter to Mr. Rove’s lawyer, Robert D. Luskin, lifted a pall that had hung over Mr. Rove who testified on five occasions to a federal grand jury about his involvement in the disclosure of an intelligence officer’s identity.
In a statement, Mr. Luskin said, “On June 12, 2006, Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald formally advised us that he does not anticipate seeking charges against Karl Rove.”
I am sure we will spend the next two weeks debating that Rove is guilty- Fitzgerald just can’t prove it, butthat seems to me to be a pointless endeavor. As much as I despise Rove, if three years of intense investigation isn’t enough time to find evidence of wrongdoing, it is over.
More here from Tom Maguire, and for those of you who choose to pretend that Rove is still going to be indicted, there is always truthout.
moflicky
I love the smell of exploding minds in the morning…
Lee
A question for the Administration’s cheering section:
So since no charges were brought against Rove, he did nothing wrong…correct?
So that means for all the things that Clinton/Gore did that were wrong and no charges were ever filed against them, they did no wrong either…right? (e.g. the campaign money from the Buddist Temple issue).
jaime
We’ve gone from “Karl Rove had absolutely nothing to do with anything.” to “Karl Rove named Official A” in Libby indictment to “Karl Rove escaping indictment”. I’m just counting down for the wing nuts popping in here claiming some sort of victory.
Fitzgerald only had 4 prosecutors on his team and spent less than a million dollars on what basically was a part time job. Rove threw everything but the kitchen sink at him and I believe he ultimately decided he(fitzgerald) had his plate full, what with what is going to be the trial of the century in the Libby case (to which Rove will be a witness). I think Fitz is a straight shooter and felt the need to devote the time to the case he’s actually going to prosecute instead of pinning down Rove.
Besides, I can’t wait to see what the civil trial looks like.
OK now to innoculate myself against wingnut idiots:
FUTURE DARRELL:
“Eat it Moonbats. Karl ROve is INNOCENT. You should apologize for your rush to judgment Now wonder why you can’t win elections. Next, Fitz will indict the REAL TRAITORS Joe and Valerie Wilson”
Keith
There’s also the possibility that Rove is cooperating in the Libby case, hence the lack of an indictment.
Ancient Purple
Two things:
1. Notice what Luskin says:
“does not anticipate” is not the same thing as “will not be indicting.”
2. I would like to see a copy of this “letter” that Luskin refers to. Just as I was waiting to see if the claims by Leopold held true, I want to see the letter from Luskin.
Where would be the harm in that?
D. Mason
Yeah, if Rove cut a deal that makes him a snitch on top of being almost certainly guilty. Still, it’s pure speculation.
TTT
As much as I despise Rove, if three years of intense investigation isn’t enough time to find evidence of wrongdoing, it is over.
The glove didn’t fit. I guess we must acquit.
fwiffo
Never knew you to be one for euphamisms there John. I agree that we shouldn’t waste anymore time on butthat.
Punchy
Leopold just deep-sixed all 3 of his inside informants, lying in a pile right next to his reputation, his resume, and his journalism diploma.
Hey Jay…Wendy’s is hiring!
chopper
i smell a deal.
Cromagnon
Sure was fun watching Rover squirm though… Ah well, all good things must come to an end
moflicky
Rove has said all along that he’s cooperating with the investigation. seems to me that his cooperation would stand him in good stead with Fitz. Or are you suggesting he rolled on other administration officials, or is turning evidence against libby? hmmmm.
pretty far fetched if you ask me – riddle me this: who would be the bigger fish to land? Rove or Libby?
and as to “he did nothing wrong”, depends on the meaning of “wrong” doesn’t it? after a year and a half long investigation, we know who precicely who outed plame – we’ve got at least three admininstration officials who’ve admitted it to Fitz. If that were a crime, there would have been indictments for that charge, no?
but back to the question – was it wrong? maybe. but so was Wilson wrong for lying about the genesis, substance and aftermath of his trip to Niger.
oh well, there’s always Cheney’s impending testimony to look forward too.
Blue Neponset
So true, both Wilson and Rove should not allowed to keep working at the White House.
Mac Buckets
Go F(rogmarch) Yourselves, Leopoldians!
Between all the garment-rending about Rove and the deathwishes against Bush in Iraq, the lefties are really showing their moral superiority today! Or is that Bush Derangement Syndrome?
The Other Steve
I forget. When did the Republicans stop bashing Clinton?
I really could care less about Rove. Scooter Libby is still hanging out to dry, and we haven’t gotten to the heart of who ordered the Code Red.
Nice attemptat claiming this whole thing was all about Rove, but it’s not.
The Other Steve
LOL!
Mac Buckets claims Bush is the Greatest President Ever, and anybody who says differently is deranged.
Zifnab
Usually, it’s the little fish that cooperates to catch the big fish. Using Rove to indite Libby would be like using John Gotti to indite Sammy the Bull.
That said, it’s always nice to see MacBuckets play true to the home team. Shacking a fist at the teflon political coordinator is the classic plung into moral depravity. And everyone who hates Bush does it because of a mental disorder.
And people wonder why no one takes the right-wing seriously anymore.
Tulkinghorn
Rove was never more than a bonus in this case. It would have been nice, but never relied upon.
Since we now have Cheney’s marginal notes that pretty much prove he directed the leak, Rove really is not that important.
What is important is to impeach Cheney first, Bush second. Then we might actually get a relatively honest man like Gerald Ford for president.
Tulkinghorn
Or do we just get stuck with Hastert? Inquiring minds don’t really want to think about it too much.
Mac Buckets
Or they are unable to read, as in your case, TOSser.
slickdpdx
What’s a butthat, how does one wear it and where can I get one?
Mac Buckets
*Diet Coke through the nose*
POtD! It’s over!
tBone
My prediction? Nothing good will come of this thread. I realize I may be going out on a limb here.
Paul Wartenberg
Is the investigation really over? Or is it just the investigation into Rove’s involvement?
There’s still questions about Cheney’s role in all of this that I don’t think Fitzgerald has fully gotten to.
I just see too many loose ends for this to be all wrapped up. All I see is that one of the most hated figures in this, Rove, isn’t going to get punished like people were hoping he would.
Pooh
I dunno, ppGaz has yet to show up and call everyone a spoof. That’ll be fun.
Mac, you should be happy that Rove can now resume his full duties of bashing teh gay in time for november. Our long national nightmare is over…
The Other Steve
Mac Buckets claims Bush is the Greatest President Ever, and anybody who says differently is deranged.
I think this was such an important point, it needed to be posted twice. I mean, seriously. How could anyone who isn’t insane defend Bush as the Greatest President Ever?
nyrev
If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit!
Mac Buckets
Wait, I thought Rove WAS teh gay!
Mac Buckets
You’re obviously the only one. The rest of the people on this thread can read.
The Other Steve
You know what the real threat is to the United States?
Immigrant Gay Circus Midgets! They’re infiltrating our society, taking jobs and refusing to learn the English language!
The Other Steve
I can read just fine. You claimed anybody who doesn’t think Bush is the Greatest President Ever is deranged.
Why are you back pedaling now?
Sojourner
Sure I’m disappointed that Rove escaped being held account yet again.
On the other hand, this administration is done. The majority of Americans don’t believe them anymore and Repubs running for re-election are heading for the hills.
Keep cheering for your loser POTUS, Mac. And let us know when you decide to care about good governing.
Krista
Everybody, please make sure you wear a full-face helmet when you backpedal.
Mac Buckets
In the black and white world of the nuance-less lefty, either you want Republicans to be indicted regardless of evidence and you want the President killed in Iraq, or you’re a cheerleader who thinks Bush is the greatest person in history.
That’s some real deep thinking, fellas.
Mike in SLO
This just makes me appreciate Fitzgerald all the more. Any other prosecutor ( a la Ken Starr) would proceed with the case whether or not they could win. This just proves that Fitzgerald is really the guy we’ve made him out to be—non political, capabale and dedicated to the law. In other words, one of a vanishing species, a fair American. It’s been a while since one of those has made an appearance!
Steve
Heh, if Darrell can still pretend that Clinton non-scandals like Filegate had merit, I’m sure the moonbatty left has not sung its last note on Rove. Maybe 10 years from now, we’ll still be hearing about how Rove was guilty, just like we’re still hearing about Whitewater.
Or maybe not.
Sojourner
Well, no. Actually, we figured out this POTUS was a loser in advance of the majority of the American people. It’s your team that takes the “you’re either for us or against us” world view.
Perhaps you might come to terms with reality if you recognized that supporting your country is more important than supporting your team.
LITBMueller
Judging from the wording of the Luskin’s statement, it is just as likely that Rove has worked out an immunity deal. Also, Fitz’s office is still remaining silent on the whole issue, neither confirming or denying the letter.
Fact is, there is little reason for gloating by the Apologists. Its just as likely that Rove has turned stool pigeon and that Fitz has his sights set on Cheney.
Until Fitz announces he’s shutting down the grand jury, this thing ain’t over.
Mac Buckets
Oh, please. Are you really this naive? Stop pretending that there’s exactly the same partisanship, if not more, on “your team.” (By the way, when you use terms like “team,” it’s a dead giveaway!)
You accused me of “cheering” when all I did was deride those who are publishing death-wishes to him in Iraq. I’ll let you figure that one out.
scs
Na na na na Nah. Sorry couldn’t resist. I knew Rove would never get charged. The Libs exaggerated this to no end with wild eyed dreams of waves of indictments. It was silly. And Libby will get off too I predict. If you actually examine the case, it is weak at best, and very hard to prove. The case comes down to the way Libby and Rove “phrased” their words, such as the statements that “everyone knew it” and they “weren’t ‘sure’ ” if Plame worked for the CIA. even though they admitted the greater facts, such as a discussion with reporters in which Plame was discussed. It’s a ‘he said, they said’, and not particurlarly material, since again the conversations were admitted to.
Libs can take comfort in that the whole thing, while legally irrelevant, did do political damage to the Pres, especially when he said that he would bring anyone leaking secrets to account, and he probably knew the whole time it was Libby and Rove, so it damamged his credibility, and is probably one big chunk of his low poll ratings.
D. Mason
Mike in SLO haven’t you heard? Fitz is nothing but a partisan headhunter. Get with the program man.
John D.
I’m a bit confused.
The Times seems to be drawing a conclusion that isn’t warranted even from Luskin’s statements. I’d really like to see the text of the letter Fitzgerald sent before drawing any conclusion.
“…does not anticipate seeking charges…” is certainly not “cleared of wrongdoing”. While it may be that there is no evidence of Rove doing anything wrong, appearing five times before a grand jury makes it hard for me to believe that. It seems far likelier that Rove has cut a deal with the prosecutor, and his not being charged is contingent upon his continuing to assist the investigation.
Also, the Times wording in the quoted passage is singularly inelegant.
Did I miss the indictment of Libby being withdrawn? Did I miss the recall of Fitzgerald? The investigation, as far as I am aware, is continuing.
Like I said above, I’d really like to see the text of the letter, or a statement from Fitzgerald about this, before I draw any conclusions. I prefer hard data to spin. :)
tBone
Wait wait wait. I thought the problem with lefties is that they are TOO enamored of nuance, and don’t see things in black and white. I’m so confused . . .
scs
And by the way, Anne Coulter is stealing my lines. I have written several times on here how Liberals worship the earth like Pagans, and that this earth worship is like a religion to them. Maybe she reads this blog.
I think that Christianity is dying if not dead in Europe and to wanna-be Europhiles here, and that Europeans are reverting back to their original Paganism and the worship of the earth gods. To them, the environment is holy, and conservation and global warming. Those are the gods to worship. I guess the Holy Roman Empire tried their best to impose Christianity on the Pagans of Europe, and they had a good run for a thousand years or so, but eventually people will return back to their natural state.
Krista
Feh. I certainly don’t need to see an indictment to know that Rove is a slimy excuse for a human being. And somehow, I don’t think that the history books will be kind to him, just because he wasn’t indicted.
LITBMueller
Heh. Obviously, you have NOT read the Libby indictment. It is full of very concrete and verifiable dates and facts, contrasted with shifting and misleading statements by Libby in response to FBI questioning. That’s a pretty cut-and-dry perjury/obstruction case. Libby’s fucked, and he knows it. That’s why the delay until Jan. 2007 was so important – so a criminal ass-kicking that would result in political damage did not occur right during the Congressional elections.
LITBMueller
Yeah! Damn those libs, being so concerned about stuff like oxygen and water!!! The Earth is just overrated! We don’t need water and air! We just need oil!!! ;)
ppGaz
In case there was any shred of doubt as to whether anything this idiot says should ever be taken seriously, that shred of doubt can now be removed. scs “knew” it.
So today’s big news is that this despicable pig of a man, who designs campaigns of division around the deepest beliefs and fears of the American people, who views destruction of “adversaries” as a blood sport, who clearly puts party ahead of country and common good, a political dirty trickster who made his way to the highest offices in the land and became the dirty tricks advisor to this president, is apparently, for now, not going to be charged with a crime …. and this is the pinnacle of righty chest-thumping celebration throughout the land.
What a great, great day for America, and for freedom, God’s Gift to Mankind. How proud you all must be. How satisfying! Rove, not indicted! Now his entire career of trash and dishonesty is swept clean and he is vindicated! Permanent war as a matter of policy is ratified forever!
scs
I HAVE read the indictment, very carefully, and again, it comes down to the wording of what Libby said he said, not the larger facts. It’s up to a jury to decide who to believe in the he said they said, and most juries won’t convict for that. He won’t be found guilty, mark my words.
Perry Como
I’m glad that Rove can get back to his important policy position in the administration. Now we can take care of the serious issues that are facing this nation, like gay marriage, flag burning and the estate tax…hey wait a minute!
In other news, why do administration officials always make “surprise visits” to Iraq? I thought things were going well. Why the need for the surprise? Being the nation that freed all of the happy Iraqis we should set up some scheduled visits so the Iraqis can have a ticker tape parade for our visionary leaders.
Anonymous
They should indict Plame next.
ppGaz
Right, that’s what we’re here to do, write down your words, and then wait to see if your predictions come true.
In fact, the whole blog is here just to serve as a repository for your prescient elocutions.
scs
Yes we should be proud that people cannot be legally prosecuted, as much as certain people dislike someone, for no good reason at all. Sorry, but we can’t just put some guy in jail because he wins elections and you don’t like how he does it. You actually have to PROVE he did something wrong in a court of law. I know that concept must be upsetting to you.
Perry Como
:cough:
Ancient Purple
Consider the source, ppG. scs “knew” that Mesa, AZ was a liberal haven.
/snicker
scs
Obviously we need to be concerned about the earth, but to be Buddhist here, all things in the middle. You can take a good thing too far. We don’t need to be obssesed about it all to the exclusion of all other human concerns. Many greenie Libs make earth worship seems like their reason for living. It is their “religion”.
Jim Allen
They may have our jobs, but they won’t get our cheese steaks!
jaime
Fuck you. Lets see a source on that, scumbag.
WTF? Now who’s nuts? Libby invented a whole other story. Not just some words. He claimed the Plame affair was so minor and incosequential he just forgot about it, when in fact (as Fitzgerald claims), he met several times with his boss Cheney regarding this specific matter.
Last year when Libby was indicted the spin was that no one knew or cared of this ‘Scooter Libby’ and this was all inside politics that Middle America didn’t pay attention to. Now it’s a liberal conspiracy against Bush’s obvious honesty?
scs
Man you are stuck on small things. I looked on a map and saw that Mesa was smack next to Arizona State, it seemed less than a mile. I “surmised” it was liberal due to the fact that I thought it was a college town. I wrote my reasoning down for all to see and never claimed to “know” it was liberal, having admitted to never having been there.
See, one can be wrong as long as one can show their reasoning, and as long as it is reasonable and done in good faith, there’s nothing wrong with that. However what you wrote above was done is bad faith, and there is something wrong with that.
LITBMueller
As opposed top Bush worshipping, which is completely rational.
jaime
Folks…I think we have a Cylon in our presence. The worship the one true God and take the form or human beings. They bleed, feel pain, sweat, and vote robotically for Republicans.
Perry Como
:ahem:
Pb
You know, the only person I trust less than Leopold in this whole stupid case is Luskin. And didn’t the judge already cut off his mike? Shut up, Luskin, just SHUT UP–you had your thirty-five minutes!
</O’Reilly>
Sojourner
You’re absolutely right. There isn’t much support for POTUS from the left. It’s amazing. POTUS’s policy is to split the country in half and guess what, we took him at his word.
Tom
Libs wanted a frog march but only got a ribbit.
>ribbit
ppGaz
I have never said otherwise, nor have I done much but counsel others to avoid the temptation to speculate about things over which one has no control, and about which one does not have all the facts. In fact, I am on the official Lefty Asshole List … the one maintained by lefties … for being a super-hard-liner on that subject in more than one context over the last year.
But more to the point, the people who should decry what Rove does are the righties. Basically, what he does suggests that righty government is only possible when you play dirty to get it. If it was such a good idea, why does it need gay-bashing, Terri-saving, Xtian-victimizing, Swift-Boating and all the other GOP tricks in order to eke out a victory? If it’s a good idea, then it’s a good idea that rests on a foundation of bullshit and dirty tricks played by people who think ends justify means.
In short, it rests on people like you.
jg
Because this country is too diverse and elections are too important to leave to chance.
John S.
The perfect encapsulation of the GOP mindset.
See, they can derive conclusions based on their ‘feelings’ and without drawing upon actual evidence. As long as they use this flawed deductive reasoning in ‘good faith’, then it’s perfectly ok for them to be wrong and not accept responsibility for their error, because they are being ‘reasonable’.
It’s bad enough that regular people try to pass off this bullshit as sound logic, let alone those in charge of our government.
Keith
I don’t believe that if Rove worked out an immunity deal (again, I just said it’s a possibility, but I’m out of the prediction business), it would have to be for a bigger fish (Cheney) or several smaller fish. As tantalizing as a VP-level scandal would be, it just doesn’t seem like that is what is going on, as taking down Cheney would severely damage Bush, but both Rove and Cheney are still in W’s graces right now (and W would have to know what deal Rove made if one was, in fact, made). In a scenario where Rove rolls over on Cheney, either Bush sticks it to Cheney to get some distance or he sends Rove to the glue factory for disloyalty.
Mac Buckets
Fuck me, jaime? I’m the messanger. Fuck the idiots like the DU’er who wrote:
I can’t believe you’re so naive that you think some wacko libs aren’t posting deathwishes today. First day on the intertrons?
jaime
This could be the White House’s official “Throwing Libby Under the Bus” moment.
jg
You’re quoting whackos? What’s your point? That there are whackos? Or are you kniotting up a composition fallacy blanket to wrap yourself in.
jg
For those who don’t know, kniotting is the gangsta way of saying knitting, think beyotch. :)
ppGaz
So, you are talking full responsibility for the insane rants of Anne Coulter, starting today?
Or, WTF?
jaime
You weren’t assigning that to a couple of kooks, but on “lefties” in general, asshole.
Maybe the debate about Bush is “whether we should impeach or assassinate”?
Perry Como
Republican loyalists have over 8 trillion reasons to deflect attention from the actual governing of this all Republican government. Would you want to claim this national clusterfuck as the result of your party being in charge? Debating a flag burning amendment?
Bwahahaha!
Ancient Purple
Usually someone that “surmises” doesn’t go to the lengths you did to prove that you were correct.
Of course, you could always go back to your grand knowledge that the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America is home to large gatherings of Fundamentalists.
Here’s a clue for you, scs: Google and research are your friends.
Oh, the irony of someone of your ilk claiming “bad faith.”
Again…
/snicker
The Other Steve
That’s amazing. So apparently if we think a President pulling national security secrets out of his ass to counter act a political problem he is having is wrong… we’re like some sort of deranged moonie cult.
Talk about lack of nuance.
I never cared if Rove was indicted, unless he’s guilty of orchestrating this thing. If it’s Cheney, then so be it. But whoever did it needs to go down, and down hard.
Party politics should not trump Duty, Honor and Country.
jaime
Mac, when random DU poster#1 is invited on Fox News, or to speak at major Democratic party functions then you’ll have a point.
The Other Steve
Mac Buckets
Oh, and BTW. I want a source that I said I would like to see Bush killed in Iraq.
Until you find that source, go fuck yourself with a blunt screwdriver.
The Other Steve
Not even that.
I want a direct quote from myself that I agreed with the sentiment. No indirect agreement, no implicit agreement.
No sir, I want a DIRECT QUOTE stating my support and agreement.
You don’t fucking joke about assassinating the President. You don’t fucking accuse people falsely of wanting to assassinate the President.
I’m surprised I didn’t catch that one earlier. That’s so way over the top it’s not even funny.
Perry Como
No, he would still just have partisan asshatery.
Blue Neponset
Mac,
I have to agree with Jaime. Fuck you. If you want to paint with such a broad brush don’t do it when you are talking about assassinating the President.
jaime
It won’t be happening on this trip. Apparently he’s in Baghdad for less than 5 hours. He got a great view of the inside of a military base, armored personnel carrier, and the safest parts of the Green Zone. He even bought al-Maliki a fake turkey as a gift.
Pb
Actually, taking down Cheney–if done right–could be one of those ‘brilliant Rovian strategies’ we hear so much about. Get rid of Cheney, blame him for Iraq, (and, really, he deserves much of the blame) get someone new in there as VP, and then have him (yes, not Condi…) run for President in 2008!
jaime
I think the irony of the right wing using the hated New York Times as a source is delicious.
Mac Buckets
I painted no one with anything — show where I did. I only noted that some lefty kooks are posting deathwishes today (and strangely, I haven’t seen any other lefties at DU or Yahoo rebuking them for it!), and at some guy’s request, I posted an example. If anyone has a problem with that, they have a problem with reality.
jaime
Show me where in this post, your original post, you singled out individual kooks. You can’t go back and weasel out of your broad brush strokes by changing your intent.
Blue Neponset
Here you go:
Mac Buckets
Show me anyone moronic enough to interpret that as “all lefties are posting deathwishes.” Untwist your panties, victim.
jaime
So whenever you use “Democrats” or “The Left” or “Lefties” you are speaking specifically of specific individuals and not on the non Right wing as a whole? Liar.
I’m not as much a victim as an Evangelical Christian Republicans. They have it the worst.
The Other Steve
This isn’t an apology, fucktard.
Either is this.
You falsely accuse a group of people of wanting to assassinate the President, you better be ready to apologize.
jaime
The original quote wasn;’t:
it was this
You’re a fucking weasel Mac.
LITBMueller
I had the same exact thought, Pb: a Rovian Cheney-Is-Outta Here October Surprise. This is Rove we’re talking about – the same guy who planted a bug in his own office and blamed it on the other guys in ’86.
Krista
And then we have…
No, sorry Mac. Darrell tried pulling that kind of crap with me last week. It’s not going to fly. Your two statements that I quoted above are very generalized in regards to “lefties”, and make no mention that this sentiment was uttered by some random lefty with a few screws loose. You only mentioned THAT, once everybody called you on it.
jaime
This is also the same guy who got fired from Bush the elder’s campaign staff because he leaked sensitive information to Robert Novak.
Of course where would anyone get the notion that Karl Rove is anything but a straight shooter? Must be godless lefties who want to see Bush assassinated.
John S.
Ouch!
No love for EZ Mac and his cheese on this thread…
John S.
Wait just a minute!
In 2004, the Republicans kept telling us that all liberals knew was nuance. Our views were nuanced, our words were nuanced and our presidential candidate was the king of nuance. Now, less than two years later, the left is nuance free?
FLIP FLOPPER!
Pb
What, you mean I only need to find *one* hateful rightie bigot to smear them *all* (incuding Mac) as crazy hatemongering fearmongering knuckle-dragging morons who want to round up all the liberals for treason and either deport them, or put them into camps, or melt them down for oil or something? Mission accomplished! Enjoy your (new?) status as one of tens of millions of the biggest assholes on the planet, Mac!
ppGaz
So, that means you should drag it over here and make us weep for your phony outrage?
Go complain to the author of the thing you don’t like.
jaime
He learns well from his Rovian buddie.
Bush never specifically said Saddam Hussein specifically had anything to do specifically with the attacks on 9/11, either, but we know what his intentions and designs were.
moflicky
this is a butthat.
ppGaz
That will be his legacy.
He never specifically laid out a Social Security plan, either, but he supposedly wants to “reform” the system.
He never specifically said “Mission Accomplished,” either. In fact, according to Laura, the slogan only referred to the boat he was standing on, not to something larger, as was the widely held interpretation for three fucking years until the missus cleared it up.
See, when you’re president, you don’t have to specifically say, mean, or do anything. You just have ….uh … an agen …da. And that reson ….ates with the voters. Some Say that Bush lied to start the war, but did you hear him actually tell a Known Lie with Actualy Lyiness in it?
Some On The Left just Hate Bush for his Faith and His Love of Freedom.
moflicky
the genesis of a word.
(or, when everything you know is wrong)
There’s probably a 12 step program out there for this affliction.
You believe, with all your heart, soul, mind and body that a story is correct. You base your belief, not on evidence, logic or reason, but simply because you want to believe so badly, the thought of it being wrong invalidates your very existence and that makes your head hurt.
When the story is shown to be wrong:
First comes denial. Incredulity is your watchword. “Luskin Lies!”
Next comes blame. “Jason Leopold Lies!”
Then, shifting blame. RRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE!!!!! YOU BASTARD, YOU SET US UP!!!!!!!
And here we are back at square one. The object of your hatred now becomes the source again of your current pain.
A new word is coined, and “Rovian” replaces “Machiavellian” in the lexicon.
So devious, so manipulative, so evil, so, so, damned Rovian is he, that he is capable of duping even the smartest of the smart, the skeptic’s skeptic, the country’s watchdogs who question authority, speak truth to power, suspect everyone and suffer no fools – the American fringe left.
I am simply in awe. My inestimable respect for his powers grows by the minute.
Is there ANYTHING Karl Rove can’t do?
John S.
Don’t worry, scs has your back:
See how that works? Bush only based his war on false intelligence and flawed reasoning – but he did it in good faith, so there’s nothing wrong with what he did at all.
John S.
Replace? No. They are merely synonymous:
Ma·chi·a·vel·li·an adj.
1. Of or relating to Machiavelli or Machiavellianism.
2. Suggestive of or characterized by expediency, deceit, and cunning.
If you don’t think either of those two definitions fit Rove, then we have already arrived at an impasse.
jaime
Mo…
Karl Rove is “official A” in the indictment. He’s involved up to his eyeballs. The letter letting him know that they aren’t going to indict him at this time doesn’t change that fact.
I never wrote ANY of those things neither has anyone on this thread. Rove escaped indictment because of a) furious last minute weaseling by Luskin and b) an understaffed prosecutor with too much on his plate already.
No…more like bugging his own office and succesfully blaming his opponent, or making a draft dodging alcoholic seem more like a war hero than an actual war hero. That’s Rovian.
Pb
ppGaz,
It depends on what the definition of ‘actually says’ is. Bush actually said he was going to have Abu Ghraib demolished too. They were going to close it in June of 2004. Heh.
jaime
Don’t judge Bush by what he actually says, but what Fox News and Rush Limbaugh says he says. Therein lies the truthiness.
Perry Como
It’s not rape, it’s surprise sex.
slickdpdx
Moflicky:
Thanks! I thought that was a tramp stamp.
Maybe a butthat is what a guy would get?
moflicky
also from the urban dictionary:
Butt Hat
I hope not. as trendy as I like to be [cough, cough] I’d hate to have to go out and get one done.
Sojourner
1. Be honest
2. Play by the rules
3. Put his country ahead of his own political aspirations.
Actually, there are quite a few things Rove can’t do.
Mac Buckets
Fixed
John S.
Suggestive of expediency, deceit, and cunning. That’s Machiavellian, all right.
John S.
What do Bushites like Mac do when they are caught being full of shit?
Why, make more shit up, of course.
Behold! A pale jackalope…
moflicky
no, you didn’t. but nearly all of the lefty blogs are saying these things. I’m just the reporter. Although I do have to admit, as flaming lefties go, you guys don’t truck with the usual conspiracy theories as much here as some other spots on the left side of the web.
heh. I take back that last remark.
really now, understaffed prosecutor? Are you saying he’s asked for more money and been denied? Are you really trying to intimate that his investigation has been budgeted to death?
No…more like bugging his own office and succesfully blaming his opponent, or making a draft dodging alcoholic seem more like a war hero than an actual war hero. That’s Rovian.
do you hate him because he’s devious, or do you hate him because he wins?
slickdpdx
I reread the posts above where MacB accused anyone of wanting to assassinate anybody. I couldn’t find it. MacB’s reference to some who would do so (supported by citations) hardly seems to warrant the offense TOS and others are taking. It seems hysterical at the least and even dishonest to pretend like MacB accused any of YOU of any such thing. But maybe you are all MacB’s spoofs of you!
Pooh
As well as Anchorage, Alaska! We have art galleries! QED!
Pb
Heh, nice old Mission Accomplished canard, too bad it was thoroughly and hilariously debunked a while back. Thanks for playing!
jaime
No. I’m suggesting his prosecution team had full time jobs besides the Plame investigation and only consisted of four prosecutors. That’s understaffed. If you want to take on an investigation of this size If you wanted to go on an indictment crazy rampage, you need at least 40 million dollars and a full time zealot…like say…during Whitewater.
IOW just take being bombarded with accusations that “the left” and “lefties” hate God and America, and our troops and want to assassinate the president. To make a blanket statement like Assbuckets did and then alter the specifics when pushed won’t work. It stops here. You’re not going to get away with finessing this shit anymore.
Par R
ppGaz destroys Sidney Blumenthal with these words:
At least, that description sure sounds like Sid’s job description in the Clinton White House.
Pooh
Slick, remove your head from the sand forthwith. Admittedly, Mac is a fairly obvious troll, and TOS et al’s outrage is only throwing meat under his bridge (read the sign kids, do not feed the trolls), how can you say that this is not suggesting that the “lefties” here support that kind of rhetoric. This in particular:
Perry Como
Between all the cheering about Rove and the raping of children, the righties are really showing their moral superiority today!
jaime
You are never allowed to use Clinton in any discussion involving this White House unless a Clinton is directly involved.
slickdpdx
Pooh, I read that as applying to the nuanceless lefty. Most of the lefties here are full of nuance so I don’t know how anyone could make that mistake!
I undertand that bringing up examples of the totally unhinged on any side of a question is a waste of time, but for Jaime or TOS to to pretend in earnest like MacB accused them of a capital crime is also a waste of time and even further off the topic.
Best point on the thread was Lee’s all the way up at #2. The rest is chatter.
moflicky
when did UN peacekeepers in Africa get into the conversation. oh yeah, you couldn’t have meant that. they don’t rape them, they only sell children into prostitution for food. That’s not rape, they pay them for goodness sakes.
You guys think to fast for my limited intellect. I’m just a stupid corn fed redneck racist red-stater who wouldn’t understand subtle references to raping children unless I saw it on fox news.
If I were any smarter, I might think you hated our troops.
Good think i’m not too smart.
jaime
Speaking of nuanceless: you have it bassackwards my friend. I accused Mac of using broad brush strokes and blanket statements against the entire left akin to “liberals are godless and unpatriotic”. I take offense to that and it stops now.
Bruce Moomaw
If Rove isn’t indicted, it’s hardly a shock in any case — as Fitzgerald flatly stated in his press conference when he indicted Libby, there had clearly been a massive and highly successful effort by the Bushites to cover up the identity of the leaker (in which Libby was apparently provably involveed, which is why Fitzgerald indicted him).
In any case, the Dems should grateful that the Genius is still in business, judging from his speech to NH Republicans last night as reported on the New Republic’s blogsite:
“They [Democrats] are ready to give the green light to go to war, but when it gets tough, and when it gets difficult, they fall back on that party’s old pattern of cutting and running. They may be with you at the first shots, but they are not going to be with you for the last, tough battles.
“If Murtha had his way, American troops would have been gone by the end of April, and we wouldn’t have gotten Zarqawi.”
Given that the polls (Gallup, Rasmussen and Zogby) all show that Bush picked up little or no gain from our getting Zarqawi, if Rove wants to try to boost Bush’s vote by spending all his time yelling about that, it’s extremely good news for the Dems. But then — to quote a note of mine that Andrew Sullivan reprinted — Rove’s reputation as an Evil Genius is seriously overstated. Evil, yes (quite apart from his willingness to smear opponents as pederasts, he was Jeb Magruder’s right-hand man during the Nixon Dirty Tricks campaign and almost got indicted along with him). Genius, hardly. His biggest political achievement for Bush so far has been to come within a hair of blowing the “unlosable” 2000 race by deciding the week before the election that Bush was a shoo-in and urging him to spend all of his last few days campaigning to add California and New Jersey to his list of states — both of which he lost by a landslide.
The Other Steve
So what was the point of Mac’s drivel?
It’s interesting. It’s been hours now since he dug himself a hole, and he still hasn’t apologized. This is evidence that all righties don’t know the difference between right and wrong.
jaime
Or maybe to Tom Delay’s pet project in the Mariana Islands sweatshops.
The Other Steve
What are you talking about?
Mac Buckets bravely ran away when confronted by my outrage.
Frankly, I don’t think we have enough outrage on the left towards these broad brush strokes. Instead of calling Mac what he is, a fucktard, we argue against their points as if somehow they’re legitimate. It’s that arguing that gives them credibility.
It’s better to just call them a fucktard and demand they apologize.
The Other Steve
I think Bush needs to start biting the heads of off kittens to prove that he’s tough. That’s the only way his polling is going to improve.
Bruce Moomaw
Postscript: Reuters tells us what that meeting last night at which Rove gave the stirring speech on Democrats’ lack of patriotism was actually for.
“MANCHESTER, New Hampshire, June 12 (Reuters) – Republicans should campaign on U.S. economic strength and the war in Iraq as they gear up for the November election, President George W. Bush’s political adviser Karl Rove urged on Monday.
” ‘We have the strongest economy of any major industrialized country in the world,’ Rove told about 400 Republicans at a fund-raising dinner in New Hampshire…
“Party officials estimate the fundraiser brought in $60,000. expected to help pay legal bills for a Republican scandal over a phone-jamming scheme designed to keep New Hampshire Democrats from voting in a 2002 election.
“The case led to the conviction of three Republican party officials and seriously squeezed the state party’s finances….
“Political consultant Rich Killion…paid $250 to meet Rove…People who attended just to listen to Rove paid $100 each.”
Definitely a case of the Man meeting his Moment.
John S.
He was not scared to have his arguments mashed into a pulp
Or to have his words gouged out and his rhetoric broken
To have his posts split and his musings burned away
And his sentences all hacked and mangled, brave Mac Buckets
Brave Mac Buckets ran away
Bravely ran away, away…
When logic reared its ugly head
He bravely turned his tail and fled
Yes, brave Mac Buckets turned about
And gallantly he chickened out
Bravely taking to his feet
He beat a very brave retreat
Bravest of the brave, brave Mac Buckets
moflicky
ah, more comparisons. I just got shot down for a “Clinton did it” comparison, but hey, fair’s fair, right?
but I have to ask. Is Delay raping any children, has he pimped any for food?
If it’s as bad as you say, I’d like to see you travel to the Marianas and try to take those jobs away from them.
jaime
Yes. “Clinton did it” is stale and doesn’t have much bearings on today’s goings on. People still work in sweatshops on the Mariana Islands.
I’d rather pay them like Americans their sweatshop products claim they are.
Wow. So unless he’s actually raping someone, his horrendously corrupt labor policies toward Saipan are O.K. BTW. Raping did indeed occur on the islands.
moflicky
hey, it’s your comparison not mine. i don’t make this stuff up, I just comment on what what I read.
perry como accuses our military of raping children (at least I assume it’s our military, since this thread is about the evil and corrupt karl rove and the chimpy mchitlerburton’s administration and the illegal war for oil) – when there isn’t a single credible allegation of anything like this happening, and I point out that there IS credible evidence of the UN pimping children in Africa for thier food.
I would say that’s an apt comparison. wouldn’t you? I think it’s a very good point to make that on one side you have allegation without evidence and on the other you have documented evidence of attrocity.
but then, all of a sudden, we’re in the marianas, talking about sweat shops run by tom delay. I’m pretty sure that they don’t have little children working 12 hour days there, let alone being pimped for lunch money. I could be wrong on this, so I’m sure you’ll correct me if I am.
In conclusion, I really didn’t think Tom was part of this discussion, but i’ll play along.
he’s gone. resigned. see ya. toast. good riddance.
now, you were saying again? just what was your comparison again?
Perry Como
I never mentioned the military—show where I did. I only noted that some righty kooks rape children. I haven’t seen any other righties rebuking them for it! If anyone has a problem with that, they have a problem with reality.
moflicky
I just caught your link. you really want me read through a 35 page pdf with no text search?
jaime
What? My God, you are dense.
This is Mac’s earlier ridiculous statement:
and this is Perry’s mocking statement
Perry isn’t blaming ANYONE for raping children. I shouldn’t have to explain it to you. Pay attention or keep out of the thread.
You are. Read the link.
jaime
I’d direct you to a website, but its one of those biased liberal ones. I’d direct you to a conservative one, but there aren’t many too interested in stopping sweatshop labor.
moflicky
oh, I see. well first of all, if you read carefully, I gave a caveat. but that’s of no concern at this point. i’ll grant you that you never said military.
you also never said “righty kooks”.
now, show me the documentation that only, or even the majority of child rapists are “righty kooks” and I’ll concede the point.
oh, this is rich. putting out the argument so I have to prove a negative. very mature.
let’s forget the fact that it is the “rightys” who are constantly pushing for tougher laws against pedophilia and rape.
forget that it is liberal politicians who block this effort, continually wanting to blame everyone EXCEPT the pedophile for his sickness.
set aside the fact that it is liberal judges who bypass sentencing standards to let them off easy.
forget all that.
I have never heard a single “righty” ever defend child rapists either.
so, what was your point again?
Perry Como
jaime, you’re ruining my fun. There are still plenty of MB posts I can paraphrase in this thread.
moflicky
go ahead, direct away. I’m not afraid of reading liberal blogs.
I’m here aren’t I?
I’m just curious how we got on tom delay. help me out there.
The Other Steve
Digressing a bit…
Caught this article from the torygraph which has a pretty depressing opinion of the state of US economy.
Basically the article is saying what I’ve known for a while… the US economic recovery since 2001 has been built on the back of the mortgage industry.
jaime
Sorry Perry. I bet he still doesn’t get it, though.
The Other Steve
moflicky – Are you here to apologize on behalf of Mac Buckets?
Perry Como
Show me anyone moronic enough to interpret that as “only, or even the majority of child rapists are “righty kooks”.” Untwist your panties, victim.
Pb
The Other Steve,
I’m fresh out of outrage–it’s like calling water wet. Yeah, Mac Buckets is a fucktard. Yeah, if he had any decency, then he’d be ashamed of himself and therefore he’d apologize. But he doesn’t. So instead he’ll just try to spin and weasel his way out of it like the lying slimy hypocrite asshole fucktard that he is. As he’s been doing forever. Yawn.
Steve
This strategy of trolling the trolls could be a winner.
Perry Como
Or at least very meta.
moflicky
uh huh. seems you pay more attention to Mac’s posts than I do.
ah, so I’m supposed to connect the dots between those two posts, without blockqoutes. Yup.
I tried to count the number of posts between them, and I quit counting around 60. public education, doncha know.
so, all I get is perry’s ridiculous ‘mocking’, and i’m supposed to make the connection?
you guys take this blogging thing too seriously. what would you all do if Mac and the other 2 or 3 “righty kook” commenters quit posting?
the echo in here would be deafening.
Pooh
Slick, all I can say is that you are much more generous in spirit towards your fellow man than am I. I suppose yours is a plausible reading, just in the context of the particular author’s oevre, not the one which I buy. Fair enough?
ppGaz
There are no laws against pedophilia. Pedophilia is a preference, not an activity.
Child molestation is an activity. There are laws against it.
Some pedophiles are child molesters, and break the law. Most likely, most pedophiles never molest and break no laws. There aren’t easily available and good stats on the latter, but I know of no stats to the contrary.
If you are going to shoot your mouth off about the subject, though, you should at least know the basics.
Pedophilia is not a crime, unless you have invented the thought police. Oh, you’re a Republican? Then you probably have invented the thought police.
ppGaz
I’m only pushing 60, but I have never seen or heard anyone blaming anything or anyone for someone else’s pedophilia.
Ever. Not in literature, not in conversation.
Have any references?
Perry Como
It was a simple illustration of how absurd Mac’s original statement was. There are some “righties” that have raped children. But that doesn’t mean all “righties” agree with that activity. And unlike Mac’s original example of some random commenter on DU, I can point out actual Republicans that had political power while they raped children. Still, it’s an unfair thing to say.
Not really.
Start talking about gun control or smoking bans. Those topics are tons of fun with the left of center types.
Par R
ppGaz proposes new slogan for Democrats:
Could be a winner in certain precincts in California, New York and other “blue state” locations.
Perry Como
Par R, you’ll like this (WMV).
lard lad
At least we have the verdict of history to look forward to, years down the line. I only hope I live long enough to see Rove firmly ensconced in the books as the amoral piece of shit he is.
jaime
I don’t know, be able to discuss things with intellectually honest people who are actually the conservatives they say they are.
moflicky
ppGaz,
Oh gosh. excuse me for ever suggesting that pedophiles are child molesters. I’ll NEVER make that mistake again.
a simple google search would have cleared that up.
lots of esplainin’ there luuuucy.
And then, there’s those on the left who want to normalize pedophilia – dating clear back to Kinsey’s work.
anyway, you did hear about the judge who sentenced the pedophile – oh, sorry, child molester – to a year’s home detention because “he was too short to go to jail” a couple of months ago, didn’t you?
I’m betting this wasn’t a “right-wing activist” judge, knowwhattamean?
ppGaz
You pretty much suggested that they are the same thing, which is pretty obviously not true. And you suggested that there might be, or should be, laws “against pedophilia” which is pretty obviously provably not true.
I said nothing about “normalizing” anything. What I said, in a way which I think was clear to everyone, is that you don’t know a goddam thing about the subject …. yet you bloviate about it. Why is that? Why would you choose to go on about a subject you know nothing about? For its supposed rhetorical value?
As for you googled nonsense, that’s what it is. The appearance of some bullshit in a google return set doesn’t make it so, or make it mean anything.
I don’t know of anyone who blames person A for person B’s pedophilia. And it’s quite clear to me that anyone who does so, like you, has no idea what they’re talking about.
Also, I don’t know of any connection between pedophilia and homosexuality, as exclusive from pedophilia and heterosexuality. Do more men crave young girls, or young boys? I have no idea. But the point is, neither do you.
jaime
Jeez. Kinsey? You’re going back THAT far? To invent some left wing conspiracy to normalize kiddie touching? You are a severely repressed individual.
ppGaz
Can you point to a law or proposed law “against pedophilia?”
Take your time.
slickdpdx
MacB construed the lack of disagreement as confirming a sentiment on DU or wherever that the kooky statement appeared wasn’t regarded as kooky. You certainly dispelled the idea that you would react the same way. Good for you.
9 times out of 10 “intellectually honest” means “agrees with me.” To me, being intellectually honest means looking at the other person’s argument as charitably as you can, not screaming “assassin”, “child molester”, “straw man” etc. Its not much more of a victory to tear down a straw man than to set one up. Why waste your time with bad arguments? Take the argument in its strongest form and deal with it. The conversation will be more rewarding and almost as fun to read.
Steve
That was, in fact, a conservative judge who made that bizarre ruling, which I believe he later changed.
But oh no, that judge “must” be a liberal, right, because he fits into your stereotype of how liberals behave, right? Conservatives aren’t soft on crime, so this judge must be a liberal, and thus this ruling proves liberals are soft on child molesters!
tBone
Obviously you haven’t seen one of the epic flamewars starring ppGaz.
Perry Como
We could bring up the relationship between music and math again…
The Other Steve
Really? How do you know? Do you speak for MacB?
If you are, are you going to apologize for the fucktard accusing us all of wishing the President ill will?
If not, then I really don’t see what business you have posting. Trying to explain away MacB’s incredibly fucktardish behavior just makes you appear intellectually dishonest. I mean, maybe you assholes think it’s funny to threaten the President’s life, I don’t know. You sure did enough of it when Clinton was in office.
tBone
Quadratic equations and sharpened cymbals at 10 paces, pardner.
Ancient Purple
Nope. Never gonna happen. Why?
Because GWB is the Greatest President the United States has ever known. In fact, he’s better than Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Lincoln and FDR all rolled into one. And since he is that great, he wouldn’t hire anyone other than the best the world has to offer.
Therefore, Rove, Rumsfeld, Chertoff, etc., are all the best America has to offer and serve at the behest of the Greatest American Hero and President ever to grace the White House. Why his passing of gas is a blessing to the Queen Anne chair he sits upon in the Oval Office.
(This ends my MacBuckets impersonation for the day.)
ppGaz
I’m more interested in the relationship between math and pedophilia. I think there’s the real threat to marriage.
ppGaz
QED, as they say!
ppGaz
Which law did he break? The one “against pedophilia”?
Look it up for us, would you?
Thanks.
Bruce Moomaw
Actually, George Will wrote a Washington Post column a few years ago pointing out not only that pedophilia isn’t actual child molestation, but even defending a 22-year-old who had been indicted in Ohio for writing fantasies about sadistic child molestation (which someone then discovered by accident) that didn’t involve the actual photography of kiddie porn. As he said, sexual tastes and private fantasies about them, however loathsome they are, are not the same thing as actually harming someone else by acting them out.
moflicky
no, really I was suggesting that it was a slip of the tongue that only a pedantic ninny would take such an issue with.
For the record, I apologize for insulting all the non-child-molesting-pedophiles who might be reading this thread.
you’ve never heard of blaming a domineering or child-molester father for steering anyone towards that predilection? I certainly have. It’s a common excuse. isn’t it liberals who emphasize fixing the root causes of anti-social behaviour rather than punishment?
maybe he used to be conservative, but he’s had a change of heart.
These quotes don’t at all sound conservative to me.
link
ppGaz
Of course, but you are talking about child molestation … now that I pointed out to you that that’s what you were talking about.
Before, you were talking about pedophilia, which is quite a different thing. I have never heard anyone blame anyone for somebody’s pedophilia. In fact, I have never seen anyone make any substantiated claim about the origins of pedophilia. Have you?
moflicky
for the record, I think dubya is pretty much an idiot. there are only a couple of issues I agree with him on.
I just find it really ridiculous the visceral hatred from the left. it’s unhealthy and counter productive. to unfailingly attribute every single thing the man does (nothing escapes the criticism – NOTHING) to nefarious motives is simply absurd.
especially silly are the charges that we’ve become a fascist state. I’m just going to need a little more to go on before I believe it. something like closing newspapers, shutting down blogs like this one or suspension of elections.
when that happens, i’ll eat my words and share my guns with the biggest anarchist lefty bush haters out there to keep it from happening.
until then, I’ll keep my eyes peeled for the coming government crackdown and keep my powder dry.
ppGaz
“No longer believes in punishment” is grossly general and appears to have nothing to do with child molestation or pedophilia … or for that matter, parking tickets, or anything in particular. Sounds like he is just a little goofy. A judge in criminal court who doesn’t believe in punishment? Well, that’s unorthodox, to say the least.
ppGaz
Same here.
moflicky
again with the semantics. I of course I originally meant child molestation. now, can we continue, or do you wish to flog me some more for my dreadful mistake?
ppGaz
I’m not flogging you for a mistake. I’m flogging you for talking about something you know nothing about, and trying to use it to fling gratuitous poo. For some reason you seemed intent on smearing liberals with pedophile poo.
If you will concede that this was a gross error of judgment on your part, unnecessary, disgusting, un-American, unpatriotic, and otherwise despicable, I will drop the matter and declare you to be a fine example of wholesome Americanism and a friend to every right thinking person.
Bruce Moomaw
Getting back to Rove (isn’t it amazing where these threads can end up?), Pete Yost of the AP has a VERY useful review of the situation tonght on NBC’s blogsite:
” The decision not to charge Karl Rove shows there often are no consequences for misleading the public.
“In 2003, while Rove allowed the White House to tell the news media that he had no role in leaking Valerie Plame’s CIA identity, the presidential aide was secretly telling the FBI the truth.
“It’s now known that Rove had discussed Plame’s CIA employment with conservative columnist Robert Novak, who exposed her identity less than a week later, citing two unidentified senior administration officials.
“Rove’s truth-telling to the FBI saved him from indictment. And by misleading reporters, the White House saved itself from a political liability during the 2004 presidential campaign.
“While the president and the vice president underwent questioning by Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald in 2004, Rove’s role never surfaced. The lone blip on the radar screen was a one-day flurry of news stories the month before Election Day when Rove was brought before a federal grand jury — one of his five grand jury appearances in the probe.
“The extent of Rove’s involvement didn’t become official until Oct. 28 of last year, when Vice President Dick Cheney’s chief of staff, I. Lewis Libby, was indicted on charges of perjury, obstruction and lying to the FBI about how he learned of Plame’s CIA identity and what he told reporters about it. The indictment recounted Rove’s conversation with Novak about the CIA officer, as Rove later related it to Libby.
“For nearly three years, the White House has refused to discuss the Plame investigation, citing the fact that it is still under way.
” ‘The ability of this White House to stiff the press is probably better than any previous administration,’ said presidential scholar Stephen Hess, a former speechwriter for President Eisenhower and an adviser to Presidents Ford and Carter. ‘Clearly if there are no leaks, there’s no damage.’
“Hess said Tuesday the Plame case is an example of the news media being complicit in the White House’s conduct. ‘I’m saying that there was a handshake and Bob Novak was honorable to the handshake’ by refusing to publicly identify his sources, said Hess. ‘It’s not quite a deal with the devil because these people are our elected and appointed officials, but it’s a question of how much you want to let them off the hook.’…
“Among the many unanswered questions in the Plame probe are what, if anything, Rove told President Bush about his conversation with Novak. Another question is whether Rove told Bush about his conversation with Time magazine reporter Matt Cooper.
“It was the Rove-Cooper conversation on July 11, 2003, that threw the investigation back on the front pages a year ago. Facing jail unless he cooperated with prosecutors, Cooper testified that Rove said Wilson’s wife worked at the ‘agency’ and that she was responsible for sending her husband on a CIA mission to Africa in 2002 to check out intelligence about Iraq.
” ‘I inferred that he obviously meant the CIA and not, say, the Environmental Protection Agency,’ Cooper wrote in Time, recounting his conversation with Rove.
“It was the Rove-Cooper conversation about Wilson’s wife that became the focus of Fitzgerald’s investigative interest in the president’s political adviser.
“Unlike the conversation with Novak, Rove didn’t reveal it to the FBI until more than a year into the criminal investigation of the Plame leak.
“Rove’s explanation for his belated disclosure of the conversation? He says he forgot about it.”
So: can we please cut the crap from the Right about Rove’s lack of an indictment making him (or the entire White house) morally blameless in the Plame affair? Pretty please? What it really proves — as Fitzgerald himself said in his Libby-indictment press conference — is that coverups of crimes frequently work, which is not exactly news.
Steve
moflicky
so you do want to flog me some more.
I’m smearing liberals with being lax on crime in general, and deviant sexual predilictions in particular. whatever you want to call it is fine with me. it’s the liberal mantra that it’s always more society’s fault than the criminal.
now argue that this isn’t the case, or don’t, but as I said, I meant child molestation, not pedophilia.
error? sure. gross? don’t think so. If I had said child molester instead of pedophile, would have still been unnecessary, disgusting, un-american, unpatriotic and otherwise despicable?
gosh, you’re strict! :)
moflicky
I’m sorry, I wanted to read the rest, I really did, but I just couldn’t get past that first line. I’m sure the rest of his analysis was just dandy and spot on, but is he suggesting that we raise “misleading” to a prosecutable offense?
that IS what he’s suggesting, isn’t it?
thanks, but no thanks.
ppGaz
Well then, my instincts were right the first time. You’re just Darrell with better writing. Another librul-basher who is just here to bust chops.
Fine. You will be treated with the lack of respect you deserve. Furthermore, a curse will be placed upon you which will cause your crotch to become inflamed with an oozing rash.
Sojourner
Oh bullshit. Can’t you make more interesting arguments than this nonsense? OMG you’re a bore.
moflicky
damning with faint praise? gosh, and I thought we were hitting it off. oh well, ever the bridesmaid.
oooh. you can do that? did you learn that trick from Karl Rove? He’s always braging about being able to do just that in his daily marching orders email. All of us in the global neo-con zionist conspiracy get the email, but few of us believed he was telling the truth.
maybe that explains why Al Gore walks the way he does, with kind of a “john wayne” shuffle.
ppGaz
Of course not. The universe is rigged in favor of my side. The necessary fleas will infest your nether regions and do the work.
Prepare to itch forever.
ppGaz
Unlike Wayne, he has both lungs. Our side understands the risks of pollution.
Ancient Purple
Link.
Republicans control the government.
Their watch. Their responsibility.
Ancient Purple
First, you do realize I was putting up a parody of MacBuckets, right?
Second, you assertion would have merit if you could tout the right side of the aisle as being so prim and proper and pure and innocent.
Unfortunately, while the left has denizens that will criticize Bush for anything he does, including his choice of bathroom tissue, there are plenty of denizens on your side that are more than happy to stipulate that Bush can do no wrong. Ever.
Here is a great example: Ann Coulter states that the 9/11 widows are harpies and were happy to see their husbands die so they could cut Kerry campaign commercials and cash in on their husbands deaths. Then, she said it was vile that they used their husbands’ deaths for political gain and purposes.
Here is a little exchange from a recent Hannity & Colmes.
Bush can do no wrong. Bush never does anything wrong. Bush is the Greatest President Ever.
Perry Como
Is Dear Leader still verboten?
ppGaz
How about Dear Leader-Hoser?
It’s catchy, and apt. Plus I made it up so I think it’s funny.
The Other Steve
Let’s be fair here. As much as the left supposedly hates Bush, they will never compare to the right’s hatred of Bill Clinton.
The left’s complaints are simply about policy. The right… they hated Clinton personally. Even if they agreed with him on policy, they couldn’t bring themselves to say even one nice thing.
The Other Steve
BTW… was listening to some analysis out of Iraq.
Apparently Bush’s little visit to Iraq had the opposite effect he hoped. His not notifying the new Prime Minister Al-Maliki he was coming, pretty much just made the guy look like a puppet in the face of his people.
Ohwell. Remember, it’s all about politics back home. Whatever happens abroad, they’ll just blame the liberals if it goes wrong.
The Other Steve
Here’s a link
The Other Steve
Silly Rabbit. Republicans don’t believe in responsibility.
They believe in whining and blaming somebody else. Why? BEcause it’s good politics.
Sine.Qua.Non
I’m pretty abashed that you continue to link to Protein Wisdom. Sigh.
Pooh
Online Integrity For All!
moflicky
Ancient Purple,
yes, I knew you were parodying.
And do I even remotely resemble ann coulter? no. I’m much prettier and she’s more manly than I am. probably stronger too.
but as a case in point, there’s not a single denizen of the left side here who is even remotely willing to see dubya’s trip to Iraq yesterday as anything but a crass and expensive photo op, completely disregarding the huge lift it gave our troops and the new Iraqi government.
The Other Steve,
gosh, 3 quotes, one of them from an al-sadr sycophant? boy, the writer really has his finger on the pulse of the nation.
Krista
You now owe royalties to Bob & Doug MacKenzie, though…
As far as Bush goes, I don’t hate him. I don’t think he’s evil. I think he’s an ass, who’s way in over his head, and who has refused to ponder the consequences of his actions since the day he was born. He obviously has no empathy for those who do not have a world of options at their feet, judging from his social and domestic policies. He’s been very privileged in his life, and seems to operate on the belief that the only reason that other people aren’t as privileged is because it’s their own damn fault. I also think that he has absolutely no knowledge of world history or culture, which makes him very dangerous, regarding foreign policy. He’s playing Cowboys and Indians with the entire Middle East, and while there might be some good that comes out of it, I’m still quite certain that the net sum effect of his presidency will be very negative.
Shit. I’m late for work.
John S.
That’s just John exhibiting one of his own human frailties. It’s tough being friends with the loudmouth bully that nobody likes.
Ancient Purple
Isn’t that speculation? I haven’t seen a wholesale review of what the troops think of the CiC’s visit. Nor have I seen anything from the Iragi government that isn’t a press release of pleasantries.
But, to be fair, I will grant you that it could have indeed been a big morale booster for the troops and the Iraqi government.
Now, please work with me on this: the head of a nation is able to fly into another soverign state without anyone knowing about it including the head of that state. Everything is done on a fortified level. A front is created at home to give the leader cover so he can sneak into that soverign nation. He lands in what is essentially a giant bunker and does a quick visit, speech and then is whisked away as quickly as he arrived.
How soverign or democratic/free can Iraq be when the head of another nation can just waltz in without the government knowing about it? And, since Bush has continually listed the great cities of Iraq that are free and wonderful and safe and the like, why did he only visit the Green Zone?
Is democracy still “on the march”?
The Other Steve
Clap louder.
slickdpdx
Leader-Hoser is pretty funny. Someone should photoshop that!
Pb
See, this is the problem–if Bush doesn’t pay attention to polls, how will he know when his visits will be morale boosters? Inside the US, there are about three states left in total where a visit from Bush might have a slight net positive effect (Idaho, Utah, and Wyoming). And although I’ll concede that he *might* be able to cheer up some troops in his 5 hour layover in Iraq (his approval in the military seems to be somewhere in between Texas approval and Utah approval), I doubt he’ll get any sort of net positive from the Iraqi people–attacks on US-led forces got 47% approval ratings over there back in January.
ppGaz
That’s the best summary I’ve seen in five years.
All that’s missing is the photo of Bush and Prince Bandar with broomstick horses.
moflicky
alright then. I guess resignation and an appropriatly bloody suicide is his only alternatives now. He’s not allowed to try and win the war (and his visit there yesterday – whether you want to believe it or not – was designed to help in that effort, bolstering the Iraqi government and hopefully give them the legitimacy they need to succeed) and he’ll be blamed for it’s failure.
a literal no win situation, written in stone.
Mac Buckets
LOL at your pretend victimhood! I apologize for nothing. Can you read that correctly, Dexter Manley?
Pb
moflicky,
If you say so–is that a Hitler comparison or something?
You’re kidding, right? If that was his intent, then it failed miserably, but I can think of like 8 zillion other, better things he could have been doing to try to “win the war”. Are we even at war, anymore? Didn’t we declare victory, have some elections, form a government, just about everything but *leave Iraq* and stop pissing off Iraqis, in fact? But no, he’s going to “stay the course”, also known as “the wrong direction”.
You’re damned right he will be, and rightly so, too.
And, pray tell, whose bright idea was it to invade Iraq in the first place? It sure as hell wasn’t mine–if Bush had listened to me, or indeed most of the world, instead of going ahead full throttle and fucking things up, he wouldn’t be in this position. But no, he arrogantly ignored, dismissed, and marignalized us, as his staff demonized us, and made up whatever reasons sounded good at the time to play out his little pet fantasies and kill thousands upon thousands of people for his petty little geopolitical vendetta war-president squabbling bullshit.
ppGaz
Which war would that be? The Iraq Civil War? Because whatever else we’re doing over there has long ago been fucked up beyond redemption.
Can you recite the history of Arab-Muslim democracy for us? Hint: It’s a very short story. Two sentences would cover it.
Can you recite the litany of things that these dumfucks have done right in the Iraq war up to now? Start with the flowers, please. For that matter, start with the rhetorical descriptions of Iraq and its government coming from Washington DC since about 1985, and explain to me why any citizen who isn’t drunk or mentally ill would believe anything these motherfuckers said now? At what point, after 20 or 25 years of being ass-backwards wrong, does your government spur you to skepticism?
Pb
That’d be a very short list.
Now that’d be a very *long* list…
John S.
We know, Mac. You’re sort of a culpability nihilist. It’s your defining quality.
Pb
Heh, I so called that one.
ppGaz
Here’s what’s amazing to me:
This government acts like it wants to be the United States of Corporations. Well, fine. Let’s apply that test.
Suppose you went into the boardroom of any large stable corporation in the world, in 2002, and presented a plan to invade Iraq, based on the assumptions and quality of work done by this government in the runup to war at that time.
Does anyone here, familiar with corporate management, think that this insane scheme would have lasted one hour in that boardroom? Any competant management team would have shredded it and probably fired the idiots who brought it into the boardroom in the first place.
Yet ….. here we are.
You figure it out.
John S.
Well given his track record, you don’t really need to be Kreskin.
Why, just the other day Mac was informing us historically challenged libruls that the real reason the American public was sold the Iraq War was to oust Saddam and his Sons from power – because he was a horrible dictator afeter all, an we needed to liberate the Iraqi people.
All this WMD and imminent threat stuff was just made up by the liberal media to make Bush look bad.
Pb
ppGaz,
Are we talking about an energy company, or a defense contractor, or what?
Pb
John S.,
In the meantime, I hear North Korea is conducting some more ballistic missile tests… so we’d better invade Iran!
ppGaz
Pb, talking about Corporation X, ordinary garden variety Fortune 1000 Company.
John S.
Well, DUH.
Once we take care of Iran, we won’t have to worry about the threat posed by other countries starting with ‘I-r-a’.
The Other Steve
Ok, then. You’re a fucktard. We’re all in agreement I guess.