Apparently another Republican stalwart has caught the Specter bug:
WASHINGTON, July 8 — In a sharply worded letter to President Bush in May, an important Congressional ally charged that the administration might have violated the law by failing to inform Congress of some secret intelligence programs and risked losing Republican support on national security matters.
The letter from Representative Peter Hoekstra of Michigan, the Republican chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, did not specify the intelligence activities that he believed had been hidden from Congress.
But Mr. Hoekstra, who was briefed on and supported the National Security Agency’s domestic surveillance program and the Treasury Department’s tracking of international banking transactions, clearly was referring to programs that have not been publicly revealed….
Some folks have expressed surprise, I take a more jaded view. Let’s look at Bush’s approval spread in Michigan, as of June 2006 (SUSA): 32/66 approve/disapprove, compared with 37/61 overall. People don’t like George Bush in general and in a safely blue state like Michigan they really don’t like him.
For the Republicans this won’t be a pretty race by any measure. You have authortarian crap like Schiavo for which the proprietor of this blog is an excellent bellweather. The returning spectre of Social Security phase-out to energize pretty much everybody who uses or plans to use that program. Got medicare? Maybe you’re getting close to that “donut hole” where the government won’t offer a single penny for drugs for a couple of months. Lucky you. Pretty much everywhere the president has become a pure liability, even more so in blue states like Michigan. Hence the race is on to see who can punch their ‘independent’ card first. Timing matters here becuase whoever bails (or at least appears to bail) first will get the most benefit-of-the-doubt. Even Joe Lieberman, embarrassingly, wants to get in on the act.
So, Peter Hoekstra has discovered that Congress exists. No doubt any number of nervous incumbents will follow his lead. Just don’t hold your breath for anything to actually, you know, happen. Just like the script demands, big public displays like Hoekstra’s will last about as long as it takes to pack up the Klieg lights. If I wanted to coin a verb I would call it ‘spectering.’
Emptywheel takes an informed look at the same question and comes up with a different answer – Hoekstra’s problem is that Bush wants to leave him out of the wackjobbery.
This is Hoekstra suggesting that he will play hardball with the Administration if he, Hoekstra, continues to lose power. It’s not so much that he minds Bush’s illegal spying programs (on the contrary, Hoekstra emphasizes his support for Bush’s illegal spying). But he knows he can use those programs to threaten Bush.
I don’t know that Michigan is “safely blue;” Bush’s troubles certainly aren’t helping the Democratic governor any.
That said, it probably is significant that Hoekstra is backing away from the president, since his district is easily the most conservative in the state.
Tim, I think you are way off here –
As everyone knows only Democrats pay attention to opinion polls and pander to the base while Republicans lead based on time-honored traditions and values.
This is the reason for the major push back against the NYT. The tip of the iceberg isn’t even showing yet.
What’s most surprising is he is from the republican part of the state.
Michigan is blue, but he is from the Gerald Ford part of Michigan (Western Michigan, North of Grand Rapids).
“Spectering.” I like it. Especially since it implies the lack of substance behind such noises.
Wasn’t Hoekstra part of the news conference with Santorum telling us that Iraq has WMD’s. I bet there over there now with pail and shovel looking those “scary WMD”. What will he stand up against next week, maybe flourine in our water”.
This might not be entirely for his benefit as it is for his fellow Michigan Republicans. If Hoekstra is pegged as a Rubber Stamp Bushite, then his like-minded fellow Republicans can pick up the same brand. The last thing Michigan Republicans would want is to turn this into a referendum on the President.
So let the biggest (R) in your party take a liberal step back from Dear Leader, at least until November. Hopefully, the wave of pitch-folk waving, torch tooting America Haters will pass you by in the night. Because, lets face it, Republicans just don’t have the balls to stand by their man anymore.
Be interesting to see what happens if the Specter Metavirus spreads, since both Rove and Mehlman are still trying to make ’06 a referendum on loyalty to Bush.
But it’s only cosmetic. GOP candidates want to distance themselves from Bush the Loathed only because he’s a political liability, not because they actually give a shit about governance, accountability or the nation’s welfare. They just want to keep the privileges single Party rule has gained them; that is, Bushism without Bush.
Whoever gets the Presidential nomination in ’08 will, as a condition of getting it, have to assure the GOP that Bushism will continue under the new brand name. McCain’s already shown he’s able to mimic being a reformist without actually being one; Allen is another Bush; Newt was a Bushist before there even was Bushism; and Jeb is, of course, an actual Bush … all in all, I don’t see any likely GOP nominee in 2008 who won’t be another Bush in terms of what really matters.
And once the hurdles of the ’06 and ’08 elections are past, if the GOP is still in power, it’ll promptly resume its rubberstamp ways.
Yes, that was real authoritarian crap alright, to try and give a women the respect to have her legal death sentence reviewed before she was put to death by the courts. So terrible to go against the wish of her husband who was happy to let his wife go to her death without at least an examination first by the latest medical technology that had changed SO much for the better since her 1997 trial. Awful, when we knew that medical personnel clinically misdiagnose PVS/minimally consciousness about somewhere 40% of the time and so these patients need the newer medical tests to get the most accurate diagnosis and most complete picture. Terrible! Almost demonic to want Terri to get up-to-date tests before we let her die! Shame on Congress! And congrats to the Libs. Please don’t let me get the newest medical tests before I’m allowed to die. That would be horrible!
By the way, for every person like John Cole, there are also people like myself who went the other way thanks in part to the Schiavo debate. Many like me are perhaps a silent segment because the media was so misinformed and strident on this debate that they fooled people like John Cole, who were sadly lacking in scientific knowledge on this subject, and turned the tide of popular opinion in their favour, that many who think like me are timid to speak out on what they feel about it.
It’s sad that with all we know about PVS, and all I’ve tried to educate you all with here, you would still happily support putting a women to death without legally requiring she be given the latest, and increasingly standard, medical tests first. Sorry, but an autospy to diagnose someone’s condition is a little too late. Why not diagnose someone BEFORE we let them die? A radical Republican idea, I guess.
And before some joker comes on here again and says “what good would tests have done? We knew she was in PVS!”, I will quickly recap. Terri could have been given a brain test, such as a PET scan (no, the implants in her head wouldn’t have effected a PET scan) and they could have done some cognition tests on her, i.e. see if there was some noticeable patterns of recognition on the scans upon sounds from loved ones, pain feelings, etc. If ANY patterns would have been found on this test, that would by definition make her ‘minimally conscious’, and thus illegal to allow her to die. One test could have potentially changed the whole argument. And that is why Michael fought tooth and nail to keep Terri from having that test. And the courts, ruling from 1997 medical knowledge, allowed him to get away with it. The whole thing is sad.
The good news is that this is unlikely to repeat again, as this only applies to court rulings before around 2001, before the term ‘minimally conscious’ was adopted, so as each year goes by, cases from before the brain-scan dark ages, are likely to fade away.
Oh my God. Please, just stop.
No one in their right mind believes that any conceivable test could have been performed, no matter how negative the results, that would have caused Terri Schiavo’s parents to say “Ok, that’s enough, you can carry out her wishes now.” Keep telling yourself that if you like, but the rest of us all know that all the demands for more tests, more hearings, more appeals were all nothing but stalling tactics.
You sure put alot of faith in science to prove your theories. Or not, depending on what the outcome was.
Maybe. Maybe not. But what her parents thought was not really the point. The point was, would it have satisfied a rational person that all reasonable efforts were made to diagnose Terri before we allowed her to die. The standards of “rational” and “reasonable” are written into many laws, such as “beyond a reasonable doubt”, not beyond “all” doubt. Any one of the standard brain scans would have been at least ONE look into the workings of her brain, so that we could be more sure about what we were dealing with with Terri, and would have gone a long way to reassure her family and the public before we let her die. In other words, it’s the test that any “reasonable” personal would give a PVS patient about to die in modern times, so that we know we are not “negligent” in her diagnosis.
And then I always see the line, “well how many tests did we need to give her?” So what if we would have given her ALL the latest tests. My god, is that really such a horrible thing to do before we let someone die, legally require them to get “all” the tests? I think there are really only a handful of brain scans anyway- MRI, PET and maybe a new one dealing with water molecules that I just read about, but the name I forgot. So, maybe two brain scans given to Terri before she dies- oh my god, how cruel -Republicans are EVIL for wanting that to have happened!
By the way, that new brain scan is this:
scs, do you have any idea what this thread is about? No? Well then, shut up. Stay part of the “silent segment” unless you have something to add.
So apparently this letter was supposed to be private. Am I supposed to believe this was leaked against his wishes? Oh no, the terrorists win again!
Sorry, but when Dems stick in Terri Schiavo in practically every post they make as some example of the evilness of Republicans, who, horrors of horrors, dare to interfere legally to make sure people are properly medically tested before they are killed, I have to speak up and point out the ‘liberal’ ignorance and propaganda on this point.
So why then, are they not interfering via legislation, to save as many as 18,000 people who die prematurely every year due to lack of health coverage?
Uninsured newborns are one-and-a-half times more likely to die than infants with insurance. Why isn’t your president cutting short his vacations to write in legislation to save them?
The uninsured are less likely to receive routine preventive screening and testing that can lead to early detection of serious, life-threatening illnesses such as cancer, heart disease and diabetes. And if diagnosed, they’re much less likely to be able to afford treatment. Why aren’t the “culture of life” Republicans trying to save them?
So before you choke on your own piety and self-righteousness, thinking that the Republicans were only trying to save a woman from “being killed”, stop and think how much blood is already on their hands because of their domestic healthcare policies. Stop and think about the scores of people in your country who cannot afford the type of healthcare that Terri Schiavo had.
The people that you are so vehemently defending do not give a tinker’s damn about any of them. And if you were uninsured, they would not give a damn about you, either.
The Schiavo BS was not about Tery Schiavo, it was about pandering to the Religous Right. Look into the backrounds of Randall Terry and others. These people interfered in a similar situation in Virginia and used the Republican party. Another scam artist was Dr. Hammesfahr, a snake oil fraud looking to promote himself at the bedside of a woman unresponsive for years. About all I can say about Hoekstra is he didn’t pander like Santorum in Florida. But these two idiots will help us find WMD’s in Iraq – LOL.
Why are guys talking to that fucking worthless troll?
You also have to consider that among the social conservatives over here in W. Mich., there’s also a very strong libertarian streak as well (the Michigan Militia put a name to that face back in the mid 90s). Hoekstra may indeed have found that excessive presidential nuthugging has had a downside, and this might be his way of demonstrating a little love for the Black Helicopter crowd.
Granholm’s weakness is her day-late-and-dollar-short approach to Michigan’s economic woes. Bush could get impeached, and it likely wouldn’t help Granholm one bit. Fortunately for her, the Repubican candidate has a previous history with heading up the Amway pyramid scheme, and was also directly responsible for some rather massive outsourcing of jobs when he headed up that company.
Can’t we get scs medically declared pvs?
How the hell can anyone say with any degree of certainty who died “prematurely” as a result of lack of health coverage? Of course that doesn’t stop you from throwing out such bullshit “facts”. One thing we do know Krista is that many in Canada die waiting for surgery, many others die because your country lacks drugs MRI’s and other scan technologies and treatments which are widely available in the US under the “heartless” Republican administration.
I have viewed her posts for five minutes…Dr. Capelza can assert that she is indeed pvs.
If Krista gave a rat’s ass about real suffering, about “blood on hands”, she would acknowledge the blood and suffering in Canada resulting from long waiting lists for treatment and lack of basic diagnostic equipment and drugs. But she’s too dishonest and full of shit to acknowledge that reality.. and it is most definitely a reality in social healthcare ‘heaven’ in Canada
Exactly right.. those jackasses bring up Terri Schiavo with regularity and then scream like whining little bitches when someone dares to respond. Liberal aholes
He did drop about 6 posts (half the banter that ensued after Casey) so he was kinda hard to ignore. And the Shavio/scs issue does raise one other interesting point – that some in this country are unsatisfied with Bush because he isn’t radical enough. Take Holier than Thou Sam Brownback, the Godly candidate from Kansas:
There are people in this world worse than Bush. Much worse.
This post of Tim’s is as overwrought as the stories in the Times and the WaPo. Here is a Link to the full text of Hoekstra’s letter. Very clearly what has him most upset are the looming nominations to the two top positions in the CIA, particularly that of Steve Kappes as deputy Director. Hoekstra, as well as many other Republicans, view Kappes as one of the principal leakers of information damaging to national security and to the Administration.
Let’s not overlook this part of Peter Hoekstra’s letter.
In fact, I have long been convinced that a strong and well-positioned group within the Agency intentionally undermined the Administration and its policies. This argument is supported by the Ambassador Wilson/Valerie Plame events, as well as by the string of unauthorized disclosures from an organization that prides itself with being able to keep secrets.
Wilson/Plame a putup job by a rogue group in the CIA ?
The Other Steve
Looks like Michelle Malkin’s attack tactics have taken a life.
Not that she cares or shows any remorse.
The Other Steve
Naw, we bring it up because a bunch of bleeding hearts decided that they knew better than the will of God.
Darrell of course is right here to queer yet another thread on a subject he knows nothing about.
1. Around 50 million people, including millions of middle class people with jobs, have no health insurance in this country.
2. The US spends more per person and gets less for it than any country on earth. A dysfunctional model which is designed and built for and by corporations leaves Americans basically screwed, in order that the people serve their political masters.
3. Millions of people and families in this country are one sudden illness or one accident away from financial ruin. In 72 hours, you can incur six figure medical bills rather easily. I have the invoices in a drawer over here to prove it.
There is no defense for the hideous mess that is our healthcare system in this country. But there is Darrell, here to queer the discussion at the drop of a hat, spamming it with his standard verbal abuse and dishonest methods.
Darrell, scs and Mac Buckets …. the keepers of the flame of freedom of speech at Balloon-Juice. Just pick a topic, any topic, and any or all of these three can completely fuck it up and turn it into shit.
Who has more effect, at the end of the day, over the traffic here? John and Tim? Or Darrell?
The fact that you even have to think about the question proves my point. John and Tim can create a thread. Darrell can destroy it.
Wow, Darrell is really fucking stupid, isn’t he?
What if it was a pedophile boy scout leader in PVS? Who do you save, Darrell, the brain dead molester or all of those innocent children who he will rape if you save him?
WHO DO YOU SAVE?
See, we now have conclusive proof that Darrell is objectively pro-boy scout rape OR wants to kill people in PVS.
The Other Steve
Oh, and actually the reason why the Republicans are receiving such shit for the Schiavo thing.
Was a little memo they sent out to the party members in Congress telling them to play it up, because it could work for them politically.
TO Steve —
I’m hoping you meant “[the tactics have] take[n on] a life [of their own]” but something makes me think I’m wrong.
Do you have a link?
TOS, you mean, like the Swift financial monitoring thing and the attack on NYT?
Or for that matter, 911 and the Iraq war?
Can you name any topic or issue in the last five years that hasn’t been fodder for the GOP political machine?
I believe it was a low level yahoo staffer who floated that idea in the memo.. it was never accepted or agreed upon, but don’t let that minor detail stop you asserting ‘Republicans’ were using it for political gain. I guess Ward Churchill speaks for all Dems then, following TOS’s ‘logic’
The Other Steve suggests that:
If he’s referring to the recent suicide of Denice Denton, about whom Malkin had written, he’s full of crap. The local Mercury News story noted the following relative to Professor Denton:
Denice Denton was a very troubled person according to her friends, and had been so for many years.
Pat R..did that article also mention the protests and harrassment on her house, including a metal pole being hurled through a window?
I can’t make a connection out of Malkin’s material and Denton’s fate, either.
University chancellorship is a political hotseat, and as they say, if you can’t stand the heat …..
If it were me and Malkin attacked me, I’d consider it a badge of honor. Especially in uber-liberal Santa Cruz.
“Malkin attacked me” gets you a deluxe parking space anywhere in Santa Cruz, I’d reckon.
Yeah, but the remedy is to fight back, or resign. Not to throw yourself out a 10th story window.
So, you’re going to argue with a straight face that the Schiavo “intervention” was not entirely politically motivated?
What will you tell us next, that Frist could have saved her if he had been her doctor?
I’m getting worried again…Nutcutter is making sense today.
Maybe you should stay off the crack pipe more often.
I belive it was the legal counsel to Florida Sen. Mel Martinez, who was the Senate GOP point man on the issue.
That may be true. On the other hand, they don’t vote on these things, they act on them.
The denial began when the memo was given by Martinez to Sen. Harkin (D-Iowa); Harkin started asking questions and the legal counsel was forced to fall on his sword and resign like a good soldier.
Yes I am.. Most definitely there were many, many people sincerely concerned for her welfare and the disturbing details surrounding her situation. Her husband was a husband by technicality only, and the details of her expression of her final wishes was highly dubious (Michael ‘remembered’ it many years later, and the only witness was his relatives). Much to be sincerely concerned about with Terri Schiavo’s case.
I hope you liberals shout to the rooftops how you really feel.. that EVERYONE who had concerns about the Schiavo case.. that anyone who was concerned about it is/was an insincere political hack. Scream it till snot comes out of your noses. It is, after all, how you really feel. Get to it..I can’t hear you!
But, the matter was none of their business. Medicine and the law are well experienced and equipped by virtue of many years and many tens of thousands of cases to handle these situations.
The fact that these people you are talking about saw this shit on tv and thought it was about them doesn’t make it their business. The territory of medical ethics and the law surrounding those ethics are not the purview of the mob.
The Republicans took it upon themselves to pander to these misguided assholes and take unprecedented steps to insert their own political power directly into a situation in which they had no business …. a point of view supported by a clear majority of Americans, to this day.
You, the scumbag asshole who argues that it’s okay to treat gays as second class citizens because “most people” (your term) go along with it, are now going to argue that “most people” can’t figure out that the Schiavo intervention was nothing but crass politics and pandering at the most disgusting level?
Fuck you, Darrell, you are a piece of shit. You’re a liar.
Yeah, Hoekstra is being a real tough independent maverick just like Specter. Like Specter, how long before he asks Cheney’s forgiveness, spades himself, and once again takes his place in the circle-jerk ditto chamber?
Well I read some of the responses. Krista, in regards to health insurance, I agree with you, there should be more coverage. I kind of like the stategy I heard about in Massachusetts by Gov Mitt Romney, where they have state coverage mandatory (just catastrophic) if you don’t have private coverage, rather than the nationalized strategy. (So far, he sounds like a good candidate for President to me.) I don’t believe the two issues of Terri and health care should cancel each other out however- you can be outraged by both.
Darrel, I agree with you as usual, on the stats. I doubt that many babies have died as a result of no health care because it is the law that any acute care is provided. Plus the poor have Medicare and WIC programs to cover child birth and infant issues so I don’t really think that is the main source of the health care problems. The people who are most affected are probably lower middle class adults, not poor pregnant mothers and infants.
As for the political component, there will always be pols who use anything for political gain. Since you can’t change that, that shouldn’t have any bearing or take anything away from the important underlying issue.
Being “concerned” about something does not make it your business.
The case was none of your business. That’s what I said the first days I came here to this blog, having come here for that very reason, and that’s what is still true today.
It was NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS. Not then, not now.
You were wrong a year ago, and you are still wrong. And “most people”, the group you use as a cover any time it suits your purposes so as to hide your crass bigotry and ignorance, agree with me, not you.
Damn ppgaz, you were doing so well on that last post, actually making a logical argument free of insults, until you got to the LAST line.
I guess you couldn’t resist.
Oh I agree, but every time I have seen a Bush apologist excerpt an article about her, because these seem to pop up in reference to the Malkin bullshit, they focus on the money stuff, but ALWAYS leave out the part about her being under literal attack.
I think she was definitely a very troubled woman. That wasn’t my point.
Bob Fertik coined “Specterism” back in April.
I hope you liberals shout to the rooftops how you really feel.. that EVERYONE who had concerns about the Schiavo case.. that anyone who was concerned about it is/was an insincere political hack. Scream it till snot comes out of your noses. It is, after all, how you really feel. Get to it..I can’t hear you!
I have a better idea. You could shut up.
Technically, you’re either single, married, separated or divorced — what technicality are you pointing to here?
More to the point, he was right, contra Dr. Frist’s “diagnosis”.
On this I agree 100%. Anybody should be able to look at that mess and realize their interests in getting some kind of a detailed and specific living will/termination of support document drawn up. I’d rather not have other people messing with my death any more than I’d want them messing with my life.
So, from the standard template for the ending paragraph to one of your comments, all we need to do is switch [framing statement] from “insincere political hack” to “concerned about person’s ability to control the process of the end of their life” or “concerned about political interference in the judicial process” — then point out that the opposition was neither of these — and I think it’ll be a real good platform to run on.
And believ me, nobody despises Malkin more than I do. But the connection to this death is gratuitous and a cheap shot.
Now, I am not discounting the fact that the right is now officially in the business of condoning direct personal attacks, physical attacks, on their enemies. They have winked at abortion clinic bombings, the assassination of abortion doctors, they have winked at … and even called for .. . direct attacks on liberal judges. This will only get worse until the people have had enough and step in to protect all public people from this kind of crap. The right has no intention of stopping this trend on their own, they’ll look away from it while using it to their benefit as long as they can.
Yeah and I bet about 95% of that 63% thought, like most of the posters on here before I educated them, that PVS was always total cortical death I bet most of those people had little clue that the category of ‘minally conscious’ was not even adopted until years after Terri’s trial and had little idea how often that condition is misdiagnosed. I bet that most of those people didn’t know that Terri could have been easily given a PET scan and wouldn’t have had to have her brain implants removed. I bet they also thought there was no chance that stem cells in the brain could regrow nerve connections after 20 years, and thought that if a patient is one way after one year, there is no chance that things could change even years down the road.
And you know why they thought all this? Because the media got their PVS 101 from Dr. Ronald Cranford and Michael Schiavo. That’s why 63% of the people ended up being fooled.
Nope. They weren’t fooled, because they weren’t duped into twisting the question into your version.
The only valid question is, whose business was it? and the only valid answer is, the family, the patient, the court, and the doctors involved. Nobody else.
No excuse, no pretense whatever, can change that simple fact. It was none of your business then, and is none now, any more than the thousands of other people suspended between life and death right now, are your business.
insert ROTFLMAO emoticon here.
Can we get back to the topic at hand now? Politicans distancing themselves from Bush.
Her husband had long since “moved on”, living with another woman and already had 2 children with the woman.. all this without divorcing Terri. He had not seen Terri but a handful of times in the previous several years. That’s what I meant by husband in technical sense only.
I understand the argument that he didn’t divorce her because he wanted to carry out her wishes, but I don’t buy it. I think he was an asshole who wanted to retain control over her to the very end. Here is one reason why I feel this way
Whatever. It is none of your damned business.
Shut up, you worthless turd. It is none of your fucking business.
Nobody cares you how feel. It was none of your fucking business.
Just as it won’t be my fucking business when you are the one with the feeding tube.
In general I would agree with you. However, Terri’s case fell into a weird crack where her trial was based on a particular set of knowledge in 1997, and then medical technology about her condition advanced soon after that. Although we are unlikely to see a similar case to Terrr’s about her issue in the future, as trials on this issue will be conducted after we gained the new knowledge, there may be other cases on other issues where the medical or scientific knowledge changes after a trial.
What legal system do we have that takes the idea of changing medical technology into account? As most appeals are pretty much by law and definition based on appeallable issues that occurred during the original trial, where is there a place for NEW medical information in the legal appeal system? It doesn’t seem that there is. That is why Congress had to get involved in this case. And hopefully they will get involved in future medical cases that fall between the cracks if the court systems are not flexible enough to deal with them.
CAT scan, Terri Schiavo’s brain, taken 2002.
longer article, source for above.
You are aware, of course, that many of the people who claimed to be so concerned to TS’s “right to life” in a PV state are the same people who are opposed to doing the research into stem cells that could (in your hypothesis) have changed that state?
The most adjudicated case of its type in history. There was no crack, and the process worked. Whether you like the outcome or not is not on the table because it was NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.
Nor will it ever be your business. Your life and death will never be submitted to the whims of politics and the feelings of the mob. That’s a protection you get by being an American. You can live or die without worrying about whether I will vote to pull your feeding tube. Because in that case it will be NONE OF MY FUCKING BUSINESS.
There is no argument against that simple fact, so shut the fuck up.
Probably. But not me. What opinions others hold has no bearing to me. This is not group think.
You FUCKING IDIOT. Your entire act here is nothing but an exercise in group think. You just want to be sure that it’s the group you agree with.
The whole point of Schiavo was to keep the case away from the mob and away from group think. It was private.
THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT. Your failure to see that is why you are despised here.
Well I noticed that is your general philosophy. You are constantly telling people who speak up after you verbally abuse me that “it’s none of their business” and to “shut the fuck up” implying that it is your right to abuse me at your will. However, most people do think it is their business to speak up for what they believe is right, even if it is not involving their family. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on that.
Thanks, scs. That made me giggle.
The Other Steve
I hope you aren’t relying upon the anti-Schiavo forces for this information.
They have something of a reputation for lying their asses off in order to support their argument.
Oh God…please, please…scs has started the “verbally abuse me” thing again. Stop, stop, stop. You have hijacked this thread…stop. Terri Schiavo is dead, your talking points are so discredited, particularily in hindsight. Me, Me, me…
Tim F, I agree about the jaded part.
But I find this intersting. I really want to know what has him distancing himself so far.
But Mr. Hoekstra, who was briefed on and supported the National Security Agency’s domestic surveillance program and the Treasury Department’s tracking of international banking transactions, clearly was referring to programs that have not been publicly revealed….
Darrell, some of this comes down to a matter of belief. I don’t find anything objectionable in that graphic. “I kept my promise”? He claimed throughout that he was trying to honor a promise he had made to her. “Departed this earth 1990″/”At peace 2005”? Again, it seems consistent. If he’s editorializing there against the people who were trying to prolong her life indefinitely (with no plan to make it any better than it was), well, he paid the price for that privilege. Paid for the headstone too, no doubt.
Myself, if I ever have the misfortune to end up in a situation like that I hope the someone who loves me — or even someone who doesn’t! — will do to me what he did for her, and sooner rather than later.
The Other Steve
WOW! You just can’t help spewing bullshit can you?
There is no medical technology that can regrow brains. Sometimes if a small area of the brain fails, the other parts of the brain can take over functions. But not when the vast majority of the brain is gone.
The Other Steve
Cheap shot or not, it’s what happened.
There was a guy I used to argue with on the internet who committed suicide. He was a conservative fruitcake, certainly. But I at least had the decency to feel bad about it.
And it wasn’t like I physically harassed the guy. I just argued with him.
Malkin is scum.
Uh no, it is the underlying principle at work here in both law and medicine. It is the foundation of the whole concept.
You cannot make the thing a matter of public concern, that is the whole point. That was the point ten years ago.
And that’s exactly WHY what the Congress did was wrong, and that’s WHY the polls show that the people know it was wrong. BECAUSE IT WAS WRONG. YOU FUCKING MORON.
The Other Steve
Darrell is projecting.
The truth is, Terri’s family didn’t give a shit about her until Schiavo sued the doctors for malpractice and got some money. Then suddenly they wanted their hands on the money.
You even heard this debate last year, that they were pissed off he’d spent all the money already.
That’s what the whole fucking thing was about.
Really Dr. O Steve? What percent of a brain has to be intact before it is possible for a person to be in minimal consciousness? 80%, 50% 30%? Do you know? Well if you do, please email your medical research to the New England Journal of Medicine and let them know, because as of now such knowledge is not determined yet by the medical community.
OK, OK. You’re right, and I’m contributing to the problem. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa…
Last week Hoekstra and Santorum had “found the WMD’s” — until they found that even the Pentagon didn’t have their back. Now this. I can’t even accept the premise that he’s “distancing” himself from anything until I know from what, and how far.
The Other Steve
You tell me, considering you are such an expert that you can speak for the medical community.
But I’m going to rely on the hundreds of medical experts who looked at the evidence and came to the conclusion that there was nothing they could do for Terri.
The only people claiming otherwise were generally Quacks, who wanted to sell you something. They had no history of success, they just had a history of taking money.
What’s your address scs, I’ll send you a few Nigerian scams since you are so gullible.
And the fact that Michael swore that he would take care of Terri for the rest of her life and so needed a lot of money to hlep him do that- and as soon as the trial was over and he got the money, he wanted to let her die, did not mean Michael was after the money. Right?
Fine as far as it goes, but still missing the central point: It isn’t about prolonging, or shortening, or widening or narrowing. It’s about privacy. The matter is not public, and is not the concern of “concerned” people.
The right to die is not granted by public acclamation. It’s God-given, or wherever you think rights come from.
The right to have privacy in matters of your own life and death, your family’s right to have its private medical decisions be private, are not the concern of the public, no matter how “concerned” the whiny fucks appear to be, or how their arguments tear at your heartstrings. It is always NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS. Period.
The Other Steve
Maybe it’s as simple as trying to change the subject.
That’s how scs and darrell operate when trapped in a corner, so it’s part of the republican mindset.
None of your fucking business.
Hundreds? Try a few. Terri’s medical records were private, held by Michael. The only ones who saw it were the ones Michael allowed to see it.
The Other Steve
Huh? The money he received back in the early 1990s he used for her care. He even went to school to become a nurse so he could help care for her.
He only allowed her to die when it had become clear after 10 years that there was nothing that anyone could do to bring her back.
What the fuck are you babbling about?
The Other Steve
Here’s an idea Darrell and scs.
Why don’t you stick to the facts of the Schiavo case, instead of making up bullshit. The problem when you make up bullshit just to fuel your outrage, is that you look like a raving lunatic.
The Other Steve
As I was saying… making up bullshit to support your raving lunacy.
If I recall correctly, he gave her first do not resucitate order and order not to treat her for a potentially serious UTI about one year after he swore to take care of her for the rest of her life. I guess he learned a whole lot of new medical knowledge AFTER all the thorough evidence presented AT the trial somehow that changed his mind.
So O Steve, please list these “hundreds” of doctors that had access to Terri’s medical records. I know YOU wouldn’t make up bullshit.
Hey, Frist got to see a full hour of medical footage from Terri’s bedside. With an hour of medical footage, every doctor in the continental US should have been able to make an accurate diagnosis… right?
The Other Steve
Why do you think spewing bullshit helps your argument?
Does it just make you feel better? Knowing that you are a raving lunatic, you can feel better about yourself to project your own evil feelings onto others?
The Other Steve
They were released publicly, along with autopsy findings. Every claim that was made by the anti-Terri forces turned out to be FALSE.
I can’t believe your still spewing this nonsense.
You know I am tired of hearing about that video disgnosis. If you are told someone is dead, and then you see that supposedly dead person in a videotape get up from their hospital bed and do a jig, you can probably say with medical certainty from the videotape that that person isn’t dead.
If a patient can follow an object with their eyes, than a normal person would say that the patient appears to be minimally conscious, as that is one of the defining characteristics of minimally conscious. So for Frist to make that statement based on what he saw, is not that ludicrous. Since Michael did not let anyone with any sway see Terri personally, and guarded her bedside like a concentration camp victim, smuggled video was all the public had to understand the situation.
The Other Steve
And, scs, you still haven’t given me your address.
I think you are a plum candidate for some scams, since you’ll fall for anything.
I mean before we killed her dumb ass. Please give me a link to see the list of these hundreds of doctors who reviewd Terri’s records before she died.
The Other Steve
That’s ok, we’re not tired of pointing out the bullshit lengths to which the anti-Terri forces would go to try to gain power.
All of it, none of your fucking business.
Shut the fuck up.
The Other Steve
Her medical records from before she died in 1990? What use would those serve? Maybe to understand what exactly happened to her, I guess. But it’s not pertinent to the argument today.
“We” didn’t kill her, and none of it is your fucking business.
Wow, I haven’t had enough coffee yet. I forgot he was THAT Hoekstra. Maybe he’s distancing himself from Santorum?
TOS is too fucking stupid to know that Michael Schiavo REALLY DID refuse to treat Terri for a UTI and he REALLY DID give a do not resucitate order, both of which approx. 1 year after he got the money from the court settlement. Wikipedia timeline
If TOS wasn’t such an ignorant jackass himself, he’d have the decency to be ashamed of his comments toward others who actually have a clue. Yes TOS, you really are that fucking stupid.. you just haven’t realized it.
Yeah, what Darrell said.
The Other Steve
Hey, I’m not the one spewing bullshit to try to win an argument.
It is none of your fucking business.
The Other Steve
One last thing, because I have to go seal grout now.
Why can’t you guys just let terri rest in peace? I mean, seriously why must you continue this anti-terri argument?
You lost. I mean you lost the whole battle of placing government in the way of the courts and the decisions of the families in regards to matters of privacy.
Not only did you not get your way, but the polling following your political stunt showed that a substantial portion of America thought you were faving lunatics.
Your continued arguing here just further demonstrated you are fucking lunatics.
nutcutter is right
IT WAS NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS.
The Other Steve
74% of Americans believe the President and the Congress were motivated by politics rather than concern for Schiavo
Doesn’t get any clearer than that.
Because they are still trying to squeeze political juice out of it.
Nothing has changed, they don’t get this any better today than they did in March 2005 when we started this.
Because an injustice is an injustice forever. And that’s it for me, becauseI have to go seal grout too, or something like that.
Yes, scs was, according to you a “raving lunatic” projecting her “evil feelings” etc.. but it turns out she was 100% correct and you were completely wrong about the facts you disputed. See the timeline shit for brains.. and let us know when you recover from being beaten with a clue stick.
There’s no injustice, and it is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.
The Other Steve
The only injustice here was you trying to use her dead body for political gain.
I invite all the lurkers to go back and read BJ from March 2005.
It will put today’s outburst in the proper perspective.
YOU INSENSITIVE BASTARD! HOW CAN YOU SEAL GROUT WHILE TERRI LIES AMOULDERING IN HER GRAVE?
Oh, and Darrell? You asked who the hell could say with any certainty who died prematurely as a result of lack of health insurance?
I believe it would be the Institute of Medicine.
I’ll trust their judgement over yours. No offense.
Oh, and I’ve quoted studies to you before and repeatedly, which have found very conclusively that overall, the level of healthcare here is STILL better, and that only a very small percentage of people have to wait. It’s a boogeyman that is commonly trotted out to avoid actually looking at how to offer universal healthcare in one of the richest countries in the world.
In other words, you’re being fleeced, Darrell.
Please scs and Darrell keep screaming to America that you support inserting the government and yourselves into private family decisions. Scream it from the rooftops so people understand what Republicans of your type are really like.
Just please do it somewhere else.
Oh, and it was none of your business.
It’s none of your business! LOL.
I’ve got a question: Why aren’t you guys clamoring to dig Terri back up and de-cremate her? I mean, that’s about as plausible of her brain ever functioning.
If your answer is “That would be stupid,” then please say that while looking into a mirror.
None taken. Except you didn’t cite their report as subjective “judgement”, you cited it as fact. I think it’s clear that the numbers you asserted previously are unknowable with any degree of certainty.
As to the “objectivity” of the IOM, from the link you provided they explicitly state that their top goal is universal health care. Again, those numbers you cited are subjective judgement by an organization with a decided bias.
I always picture them talking to the mirror:
“I am stupid, I am obnoxious, and nobody likes me. And that’s . . . fine.”
In the voice of Stuart Smalley.
Oh yeah, the “unknowable” argument. Similar to Mac’s “unanwerable” questions.
See, when people start to figure out they’ve been fucked over, they really “can’t know.”
What unadulaterated horseshit. The entire premise of America is that the people can know what is best. Not because they have all the secrets … but because they have the sense.
The people have spoken on Terri Schiavo, with a thunderous supermajority that accounts for everyone in the country who isn’t on an all-KoolAid diet.
As for healthcare, trust me, they are figuring that one out too. Watching the corporations, Pharma and HMOs, and the corrupt government fuck them over again and again is starting to sink in. And then observing that other countries have long ago solved these problems … that really hurts. America is a high-priced Third World country now in terms of healthcare for a large segment of citizens.
If you check the wiki timeline, you will notice that Terri had been in a coma for at least 4 years when Michael gave the DNR order.
I’ve never seen any such “conclusive” studies. As I recall, when I cited specific diabetes and AIDS treatment drugs not approved by certain Canadian provinces, you ended up agreeing that fewer effective drugs are available in Canada compared to the US. As for the “few” who have to wait, I call bullshit. and bullshit again
oh, and about the healthcare, check this out, note the little graph, it is quite informative.
Schiavo now huh. The Falwell asscrack division of the Republicans just can’t seem to get enough of that.
Every month, likely every week, brain-damaged soldiers quietly return home in comas on life support. Usually the result of some form of an IED explosion. Hundreds have returned home in that condition. Each month, likely every week, families have to make the agonizing, heartbreaking decision whether to continue life support for their loved ones or let them go.
C’mon asscrack brigrade, you know this is a decision they shouldn’t be allowed to quietly make themselves without your supreme wisdom. Scream for your representatives to resurrect the Schiavo legislation putting more teeth into it as a constitutional amendment. You like those. Show your support for the troops; they belong to you, right? Let no house in America be without your divine moral judgment as the final decider.
Just curious, when was the tipping point when the GOP in large measure became a party of spineless, sanctimonious, retarded assholes?
Average total hip replacement wait time almost a year in some parts of the Canadian health care ‘miracle’. And that was the first province I checked. Tell me again Krista which one of us has been “fleeced”?
Ok, two more things, Yes, there are wait lines in Canada, but unless you can provide some numbers about wait lines and resultant deaths, I’ll conclude that the US’s approx 30% higher infant mortality rate is a bigger problem.
And from the wiki timeline, 1994:
The ever so erudite leftist deep thinkers
Well, those devious bastards. How dare they want every American to have access to equal healthcare! We can’t trust those nefarious experts. :)
Snark aside, if you want me to find other sources, I’ll find other sources. However, I think you have your mind made up that universal healthcare is a bad thing, for some reason that I cannot fathom. As I said, I’ve provided studies for you before, and you have completely ignored or forgotten about them. So I can find other sources, but I have a feeling I’d be wasting my time.
I will ask this, however:
There are human beings right now, living in your country. The land of opportunity. The “greatest country in the world”, according to those who live there. Some of those human beings are dying right now, because they cannot afford care. And no, despite what you’ve said before, it can’t always be “worked out” with the provider. There are real cancer patients who have stopped chemo, because they can’t pay for it anymore. I ask you: why do you support that?
Well, you could make an inference by plotting average life expectancy in a population against the fraction of the population covered by some form of health-care guarantee, across a set of countries that you control for income distribution. At the end of the day you’d have only an inference, but statistical inferences are often the best you get in a lot of public health discussions.
By your logic, we can’t really “say with any degree of certainty” that smoking is bad for you, since all those dead smokers would have died of something else other than smoking eventually.
I’m not that familair with the medical care in Canada. Is there still available private health care for those willing to pay for it?
It always seems like the socialized medicine argument comes down to those: 1.) who already have good health care provided by their companies, 2.) in lower paid jobs with minimal health care (with high payments or paying for additional coverage), 3.) people outside any funded care at all.
If you are in #1, anything else is not as good. If you are in #2 or #3, anything is better then what you have.
National health care will come and it will be demanded by business. They are getting stuck with the bills now and are dropping coverage as fast as they can get away with it.
You, and millions of Americans.
While you grab your tiny dick in one hand and nitpick about hip replacement wait times, the cost and availability of all healthcare goes further and further out of reach to more and more Americans and their families.
The model you cling to CANNOT solve that problem and IS NOT solving that problem. Families are screwed, employers are screwed, entire populations of retirees are screwed … all because we have a payer model that doesn’t work, and Republican governments have lied to us about it for twenty five years.
All your blathering about it in here makes no difference. The reality is what it is.
No health system is perfect. In Canada you have patients dying while waiting for surgery. Others suffering horribly during wait times, or because needed drugs were not available.
The question is, which health care system offers the best health care for the most people. I think the US model is definitely superior to Canada’s, with Canadian license plates found in droves on US border city health care facilities as evidence of this.
I do not think any government can do a better job than private industry in managing health care, any more than I believe the US postal service could ever match FedEX or UPS in reliability and efficiency of shipping packages. Canadians are suffering in droves as a result of their failed health care system imo.
Correct. You can go out there right now and look at people smoking and smiling and apparently doing just fine.
And if smoking were a Republican thing, then Darrell would be here telling you that he sees people smoking and you can’t prove that it is killing them.
Not a lot, no. There are a few private MRI clinics, but that’s about it. One thing, though, that a lot of people don’t realize, is that we ARE allowed to have private health insurance. Many people have it through their employers, or might buy it privately. The government plan would be first pay, with the private plan being co-pay. The private plan would pay for such things as medications, dental care, eyeglasses, and some medical equipment.
I’ll ask a quick question: I don’t have private insurance right now. I work for a small non-profit, and so neither my employer nor myself can afford to buy private health insurance. I had to go to the emergency room last year due to a kidney stone, and had x-rays, ultrasounds, morphine, and was in there for about 12 hours before I was released. My only expense was for the Dilaudid that I had to pick up at the pharmacy on the way home. I’m genuinely curious. All things being equal, if I lived in the U.S. and this had happened, how much would I likely have had to pay?
Here in the US, middle and lower income hispanics have the lowest infant mortality rates, lower than whites. I point this out because you are trying to draw cause and effect inferences where they should not exist. High rates of drug and alcohol abuse and obesity trump superiority of health care.. and you ignore those factors to make a political point because you are a hack
Nobody is talking about perfect, you stupid fucking nimrod.
We’re talking about whether a model works or not. You cannot sustain the current model. It sinks further and further into dysfucntion every year. More and more cost, less and less actual value to fewer and fewer people.
The number of people without coverage grows and grows, the costs grow and grow, and the system is hanging by a thread. Visit the ER of any large city hospital in the US and ask the people who work there, if you don’t believe me. Ask them how well this system works.
They know, and you don’t.
They are available in the US, it’s true — if you’re fortunate enough to have the money to pay for them out of pocket, or have health coverage sufficient to pay for you. The problem is that a growing number of people do not fall in either category. If you’re poor and living in Tennessee for example, you’re in a world of hurt.
You make that sound like universal health care is a bad thing — it seems to me that from a public health point of view, we all benefit from having as many people getting as much coverage as possible. Likewise, the current model of non-universal health care means that poor people who get sick (and the sick people who are poor) end up waiting until the last minute and going to emergency rooms which are not set up to deal with this size of population or range of compaints. End result: inefficient and expensive medical care.
Around $2,000, although if you don’t have insurance, you can usually negotiate better prices and payment terms
I don’t doubt for a second that there are people with money who go to the U.S. so as to be able to get their treatment more quickly, particularly for elective surgery or treatment for non-life-threatening conditions. I know some who have done so.
However, there are also busloads of people coming here from the U.S. to get treatments that they desperately need, but cannot afford at home.
That’s the big difference:
Our system doesn’t let people buy faster treatment.
Your system doesn’t let the poor get treated. At all.
Ok, Darrel explain the graph here
Compare US and Canada: Which country has the longer life expectancy? Lower infant mortality rate? Which country uses a higher % of its GDP to pay for health care? Is this an anomaly, or does every industrialized nation in the world have some form of universal healthcare, and healthier populations than the US?
Could I negotiate it down to $21.73?
‘Cause that’s what I paid.
The Other Steve
Except private industry in America has proven that they cannot manage healthcare.
This isn’t a question of US versus Canada. It’s a question of the US system being fundamentally broken, causing us to spend 50% more to get worse care than other nations.
I don’t know what the answer is, but the status quo ain’t it.
That’s a downside, I agree. I read that something like 1/3 of uninsured in the US earn over $50k a year. Our system, with all it’s problems is the best in the world. Krista doesn’t want to acknowledge the very real suffering and deaths as a result of the Canadian health care system problems.. hence her dismissal of the wait times as only for “a few” which is bullshit as I have already demonstrated with links above.. and there’s plenty more where those came from.
If you have an emergency situation, the US is superior to Canada, but Canadian wait times aren’t that bad. It’s in the diagnostic areas, the non-emergency treatment (like joint replacements), the slow developing cancers and in treatment drugs where the Canadian system is horrible compared to the US
Not entirely unfair. But I think you’re ignorant of how things work here. Also, do you have a cite for all the US people “coming by the busloads” into Canada for healthcare treatment, as that’s news to me and many others I’m sure?
Children get free vaccinations and every major city and country has free medical treatment with excellent (by Canadian standards) treatment, which is why I find your “busloads” claim questionable. Emergency rooms cannot turn away any serious case without being slapped with lawsuits, even if the person is poor as a churchmouse.
Have any kids? “First born” as a payment option is making a comeback.
The French health care model seems to be the best in the world that I have read about. Essentially an excellent Medicare equivalent for everyone with a private insurance option. They spend half of what we do per person and have significantly more healthy people.
The ONLY people opposed to such a system are the HMOs and middle-men getting rich from our disasterous commercial system ad those morons who have bought into the spin.
I went to a top-tier medical school commencement a few weeks ago and it was the most depressing event ever. The dean kept repeating that the medical system is in crisis and collapsing. Doctors now save lives in spite of the system, not because of it.
TOS I guess I didn’t realize just how clueless you were until this thread. The US system may be overpriced, but it’s the best in the world by far.
Care to source that? Because the WHO doesn’t seem to agree with you. (I’ll source it later – have to go fix supper.)
Oh no, that’s a lie. It might be the best equipped, dollar and hardware wise. But all of that stuff means nothing when you don’t have access to it.
To say that some people have access to a great system does not make the system great. It’s only great when everyone has access to it and can afford it.
Your assertion is a blad-faced lie, and a rather obvious one at that. When working middle class people shun regular care and go to emergency rooms when they are deathly sick, we don’t have the “best system.” We have the most unfair system, one that costs us a fortune but doesn’t deliver the goods to everyone who needs them.
Healthcare cannot continue to be a privilege of the fortunate. That’s not a “great system,” that’s a racket.
Darrell, let me put this a way nutcutter would understand:
YOU ARE FUCKING IDIOT.
Quality = (Best in the world * 5/6 of the population) + (3rd world quality * 1/6) = 5/6 of the best in the world
Then you normalize by the amount we spend and we’re not even half as cost effective as Canada, France, Japan, or any other advanced nation.
The Other Steve
No. It’s only the best for those who have coverage.
A SYSTEM implies 100% of the population, but healthcare in the US does not cover 100% of the population. So to those without coverage, you can hardly argue that it is the best.
The statistics back this claim up.
We have higher infant mortality than Cuba. Explain that one, Darrell. No, it doesn’t include abortions you twit.
Yeah, that’s just a lie. The no-access model is now the only one available to millions of non-poor, working middle class people and their families.
The coverage that I get for $300 a month would cost me four to five time that much if I had to buy it on my own without an employer who picks up most of the tab.
How many of you can afford an extra $1500 a month bill to pay every month? But it’s worse than that … many people can’t get the coverage even if they can pay the huge premiums. The system is rigged to keep out “preexisting conditions” from coverage. In other words, you’d pay through the nose for coverage that didn’t include your illness.
That’s what Darrell calls the “greatest system,” which is actually one that people in other countries just laugh at.
The one time I’ve had to seek medical treatment while out of the country was when I was in Montreal about 5 years ago. I had a severe rash on my back which was itching like hell and getting progressively worse. I went to one clinic there in which the doctor misdiagnosed it as chicken pox (it looked like chicken pox), despite my informing him that I had chicken pox when I was 3. Suffering getting worse, I went back again in 2 days and saw another doctor who pulled out a book to try and figure out what it was, and he couldn’t do it either, suggesting some over the counter ineffective cream that didn’t do squat for me.
Thankfully I flew into buffalo, NY a couple of days later and went to a 24 hour doc in the box staffed by interns, and they immediately took care of it with a shot of anti-inflamatories and a couple of tests. In that case, the bottom tier of US treatment was better than what the Canadians could do. Think about it.. if you’re a competent doctor, why would you stay in Canada when you can make 3X more in the US?
I think any statistic coming from a government controlled by a murderous propagandist dictator like Fidel Castro can be trusted.. don’t you agree Andrew?
But this is important why? Seems to me if it’s true it helps your argument on the average.
Well, really what I was trying to do was argue against your “unknowable” position.
You raise a good point here. Any inferential study such as I was proposing would have to control for this.
But on the other hand, where does it leave you? “Our system, with all its problems, is the best in the world” — it’s just that the people it’s supposed to serve are so fat, drunk, and high that it doesn’t work so good?
The healtchare crisis isn’t about your rash, you fucking moron.
It’s about car accidents, work accidents, and sudden and unexpected illness, and chronic illness.
It’s about the $175k worth of medical invoices in my drawer from one 3-week span of time less than a year ago, which came to me thanks to a situation without warning. Could happen to anybody at any time. I spent exactly 3 nights in the hospital to rack up that pile of bills.
My wife had a car accident in 1995 that cost $300k in medical bills for two people.
Without great coverage which I was VERY LUCKY to have, believe me, that’s half a million dollars in ten years that would have been mine to pay without that golden coverage.
Great system? A lie. It’s a great system for the rich, for the corporations that live off it, for the Pharma stockholders, and the politicians that feed the lies to Darrell.
For the average American, it’s a disaster waiting to happen, or actually happening every day.
Okay, we can be done now; this guy obviously has absolutely no connection to reality. The US consistently scores at the bottom of morbidity and mortality indicators across industrialized nations. Our healthcare system, despite being much more expensive than anyone else’s, also suffers from far worse outcomes on average.
You’re right. Luckily this statistic is an estimate by the CIA in their annual World Fact Book. Maybe Valerie Plame did some creative editing to make Bush look bad with this one.
Other powerhouse countries with better child mortality rates include Slovenia, Malta, Cyprus, the Czech Republic and, oh shit, Canada. To say nothing of all of Western Europe.
Facts > Darrell.
Had to stick a little patch in there for you but, that said, I’d agree with you. Problem is, it’s a huge patch.
Health care rationing? Hey, it’s already here. The ration cards have pictures of dead presidents on them.
Yeah, 12,000 killed there a few years back because of a heat wave, in which facts came to light that many hospitals had neither airconditioning or ice for chrissakes. leftist delusions are too ingrained
Looks like many of the left disagree
Tell us Kimmit, which country(ies) have superior health care to the US? Hell, not one singe country in the world has more drug treatment options.. or the amount of diagnostic equipment per capita.
Yes, that is bad. Just like it was bad when hundreds of elderly died in Chicago from a heat wave. (USA! USA! Our heat kills fewer elderly! We’re #1!)
In spite of all these anecdotes, life expectancy in France is two years better than the US.
Well for one thing, none of the countries you list have the facilities to care for premature/underweight newborns, which they classify as ‘stillborn’ and doesn’t count against their infant mortality rate. The US OTOH, makes the effort and spends the money to keep these children alive.. only to be criticized for it by leftist halfwits
Those things, even if true, are meaningless.
Options and hardware are of no value when you can’t afford them.
That’s why I know that you have no understanding of this issue at all.
What is the value of a fancy MRI machine down at the hospital to a guy who is staring at $300k worth of medical bills he can’t pay?
That’s a classic example of your worldview at work. Dazzled by some shiny googaw, and convinced by manipulators who can apparently get you to believe anything, you think we have a “great system.”
To the millions who can’t afford the system, or who are stuck at jobs they cling to for the insurance, or who choose between groceries and medicines, or who wait until they are deathly sick before going to an emergency room and costing everyone several times more for care than it would have cost to treat or prevent illness earlier …. it’s not a great system. It’s a lie and a scam …. your specialties. Lying and scamming. No wonder you love it.
Sigh. Darrell, the morbidity and mortality give you a handle on the numbers that can’t afford it.
Well, never let it be said that the US can’t compete.
With our high rates of obesity, murder, suicide, and drug and alcohol abuse, I have no doubt there are areas of the world with little or no health care which have longer life expectencies. But that doesn’t change the fact that the US has the best health care system in the world bar none.
No neo-natal ICU’s in all of Western Europe? I find that hard to believe.
How are these measures of health?
The following countries have better life expectancies (you know, a measure of health) than the U.S. include France… aw crap, there are about 40 of them. Geez. So many!
I don’t think the Chicago heat wave disaster is even close to being near the same scale as the 12,000 who were killed in France.
What’s more, many hospitals in France didn’t even have air conditioning. Or ice. Let those facts sink in before comparing the two.
Another lie. We do not have the best system in the world. We have an excellent system for some people and a catastrophically bad one for others. A couple years’ life expectancy on a chart is a minor detail compared to the lie you are spreading. And are you going to claim that Eurpoean countries have “little or no health care?”
You stupid ignoramus. I sincerely hope that you have a fucking heart attack tomorrow and have no health insurance.
Then you’ll find out, in about three weeks when your bills come, how great your system really is.
Slovenia, Malta etc are not in Western Europe. Please read the specifics of what I was responding too. And yes Western Europe has neo-natal ICU’s. And no, they are not as good as ours.
Fucking Cuba has neonatal care units. Darrell just makes shit up and masturbates furiously while clicking refresh on his browser to see our responses. Facts make him hot.
I don’t believe any other nation outside the US attempts to treat a newborn infant under 300 grams who is not breathing. I need to look it up, but I believe that is the case. Again, leftist hypocrites point to our infant mortality rate to dishonestly criticize our system. There are legitimate areas of criticism, but I find their cause vs. effect use of statistics dishonest to the core for reasons I’ve already stated on this thread
Andrew, you are a fucking twit
to which you said
what am I missing? “All of western Europe” is a continent not a country?
Come to think of it — Canada doesn’t have neo-natal ICU’s either?
It took me 12 seconds to find that Malta in fact, has at least one Neonatal intensive care unit.
Then it took me 0 seconds to determine that Darrell is a liar.
Oh fuck, the Czech Republic not only has neonatal care units, it is THE SECOND BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD AT SAVING BABIES.
Darrel, read this and then get back to us about the whole stillborn thing.
Regarding Western european neo natal care standards, I found this
You leftist jackasses are dishonest to the core. You’ll shamelessly lie and distort statistics, even those provided by Fidel fucking Castro.
No, provided by the CIA world factbook. Damn, I hate those Castro lovers at the CIA, always sending him special cigars and whatnot.
So, you think that the capacity to produce heroic care in cases that represent the tiniest sub-slice of the care picture is proof of a “great system?”
You have no idea what the fuck you are talking about, as always. You just sit here and pull crap out of your ass all day and pass it off as commentary.
Zillion dollar MRI machines and heroic care for the tiniest of newborns … great. Glad to hear it. Truly.
But a great system in general? That’s a bald-faced lie. Millions of people in this country are screwed, completely screwed. And you sit here and say, “Great system.”
What a fucking wanker you are.
God, Darrell, the day you come out as a gay, boy scout troop leading spoof will be awesome.
It’s certainly one example. More to the point, I was responding to those who were citing infant mortality rates as a way to dishonestly berate the quality of our health care system.
How the is it dishonest to use facts? Babies die at a higher rate in American than in Cuba. That notion that we can possibly save some 300 gram babies does not change the fact that BABIES DIE AT A HIGHER RATE IN AMERICA THAN CUBA.
Do you know why? Because we spend all of our money on level 3 NICUs for insured people’s babies and we spend fuck all for pre-natal care for millions of uninsured.
Reading these many comments suggests that some believe that the US has the best health care in the world, while a larger number argue that the US system of health care is among the worst because so many millions cannot afford access to the system. Accepting the latter point of view indicates that over time the US should achieve the best health care system in the world as all those millions who can’t currently afford to participate will die off. I guess this means that if one takes the long view, Darrell is right.
And I’m sure that both of those facts are vastly reassuring to the millions of uninsured Americans who cannot afford to pay for those treatments and diagnoses.
That’s a caste system, not a healthcare system.
Oops, now wait a minute. We started out investigating the following assertion:
So far there’s been evidence presented (by you and others) to suggest that Germany has 3 level-3 NICU facilities, Austria has 1, France Italy, Switzerland have none but an undefined number of lower level. Czech Republic has at least one. Malta has at least one, though its level is not stated. And the Cuba numbers come from the CIA.
Those damned leftist jackasses, always distorting their statistics. Shameless, shameless I tell you.
By all means, keep on repeating Fidel Castro’s propaganda. That sort of thing is in the left’s DNA. As you have already admitted, the CIA info was just a wild guess/estimate, as the Cuban govt controls health care records. I’ve read that the Cuban govt forces abortions on those who have a good chance of giving birth to babies with health problems. If that’s true, and it’s certainly consistent with Cuba’s human rights record, that would also affect infant mortality rates, no?
There are certain boilerplate stats that are widely used as a measure of the quality of a country’s health care. Infant mortality is one of them.
If the “greatest system” on earth can’t produce the greatest stats, and serve it citizens uniformly, then what is so “great” about it?
That is to say, three level-3 NICU facilities in a country of 80 million.
None in France, Switzerland, Italy and most other European nations. This, in the context of leftists lecturing me on the ‘superiority’ of other countries’ health care systems.
As opposed to you, proudly pointing to expensive machines that a large number of citizens can’t afford to use, and proclaiming what a “great system” we have here.
Here’s the ranking from that terrible, leftist, dishonest World Health Organization. We ranked 30th. The U.S. ranked 37th. France was first in the rankings.
So no, our system is not perfect. I never claimed it was.
But to claim that yours is the best in the world just plain wrong. It’s not the best. Yes, you have some great drugs, and some great equipment. But those do not a healthcare system make. Those resources have to be accessible to ALL citizens, not just those who are wealthy or insured.
We might not have the absolute top-of-the-line equipment in every single hospital, but at least we all have access to the equipment and resources that we DO have, because that’s the fair and humane way to do things.
Actually, from a purely casual correlation in Darrell’s examples, it appears that the more level-3 NICU’s that a country has, the more babies that die.
Because France, Switzerland, and Italy have much lower infant mortality rates.
Of course, I have a better change of explaining statistics to my cat than I do to Darrell.
No health care system can ‘fix’ the effects of free will.. alcoholism, obesity, drug addiction, tobacco, suicides, etc all affect the stats. That is my point.
You want the govt. to dictate whether or not you can have that extra enchilada?
No, I want (inexpensive) preventative health services provided to all citizens for free, because it will save society a lot of money and make people healthier and more productive.
WHO rankings are a joke. France is the country which lost 12,000 during a heat wave. Many hospitals didn’t even have ice. What kind of fucked up ranking system puts a country like that at #1. 12,000 dead in a heatwave, and at that time, Switzerland had hotter weather, but no deaths. Furthermore, as has already been shown, there is not a single level 3 NICU facility for newborns in the entire country.
We can certainly see the credibility of the WHO ranking system.
So the govt should pay for our gym memberships huh? As regular exercise is probably the #1 preventative health ‘service’ in existence. I don’t want to hear another lib complain about ‘nanny state’ govt after this.
Well, Darrell’s arguing that the mortality rates are lower because those countries define premature births as stillbirths since they don’t have the NICU support.
So, what if we controlled for that factor in an attempt to bring the statistics into line?
Yet Canada and the Nordic countries all have better infant mortality rates than the US. So the difference in reporting practices doesn’t account for all of the US’s dismal performance in this area.
If it’s true that the U.S. does just about as well as other wealthy countries in infant mortality, and we only do worse because other countries move count as stillborn cases that we count as an infant death, then that should show up in higher stillbirth rates for those countries than for the U.S.. This is something we can check; a World Health Organization report issued earlier this year (pdf link) gathered statistics for stillbirths. So lets look at the WHO stillbirth numbers next to the infant and newborn mortality statistics from the Save The Children report:
The graph includes the five countries Save The Children credited with the lowest newborn mortality rates, plus Canada and the USA. Including stillbirths does make the US look better, and is consistent with the claim that other countries may be count some infant deaths (by US standards) as stillbirths.
However, most of these countries are doing as well or better than the US in all categories, including stillbirths. That’s incompatible with the claim that the US’s infant mortality problem is a statistical illusion caused by different standards for categorizing stillbirths.
[citations are available by following the link above]
Tell it to those on your waiting lists, and those who don’t have any possibility of getting certain drugs for diabetes or AIDS treatment because the “humane” Canadian govt. doesn’t want to pay for them
That sounds sweet. Good idea, Darrell!
Of course, I was thinking (rationally) about things like vaccines and pre-natal checkups. But I would really like a tax credit for a set of Eleiko bumper plates and a nice whippy olympic bar.
Okay. I’ll do that. And while we’re at it, you go find the people in your country who can’t afford chemo treatment, or who had to declare bankruptcy because they were unfortunate enough to have a heart attack, or who haven’t a hope in hell of affording all of the newest and best treatments for AIDS or diabetes. Go tell them that your healthcare system is the best in the world, bar none.
And when they’re done beating the shit out of you, hopefully you’ll be able to afford your visit to the ER.
That statement is based on the false assumption that Canada, the Nordic countries and the US have the same standards for which premature infants are attempted to be saved. I would guess that the US is far more likely than any of those countries to try and save the smallest underweight babies and others born with severe health problems, whereas ‘humane’ Canada makes the decision not to even try.
As has already been noted, there is not a single top tier neo natal facility in any Scandinavian country. None. That fact alone tells me how wrong headed it is to lump Nordic countries in with the US in terms of reporting practices, wouldn’t you agree?
In a milder crisis in 1995, the Chicago health care system broke down too. I provided the link and a quote from the article above.
In a more severe crisis in August-September 2005 the New Orleans health care system broke down as well.
You’re trying to compare system response under catastrophic conditions to response under normal conditions.
Well, that settles that, then. The World Health Organization did a multi-pronged, extensive study, and ranked the U.S. 37th.
But they’re wrong.
They’re wrong because Darrell says that the U.S. healthcare system is the best in the world. Did he do a study? No. Is he a medical expert? God, we hope not. Has he cited any sort of reputable source that claims unequivocally that the U.S. healthcare system is the best in the world? No-diddly-do. He says it’s the best, and gosh darn it, that’s good enough for us. What the hell were we thinking to believe the World Health Organization over a brilliant mind like Darrell? We ought to be ashamed. Our apologies, Darrell…we’ll never doubt you again.
I think that is a valid point and I don’t have a good answer for it. There are other factors which affect infant mortality rates besides healthcare, and I find it impossible to believe that Czech Republic and Finland for example, have superior health care to that of the US..
Why? Really just asking here, Darrell.
How was it “milder”? And only a tiny fraction died compared to the catastrophe in France. Again, many of their hospitals had neither ice nor airconditioning. Not because they were broken, they NEVER had them. Every US hospital, even in the coldest regions, has AC and ice, along with a lot of other drugs and medical technology the French hospitals lack
I’m also genuinely curious as to why you find that so impossible to believe.
And while you’re at it, I want you to tell all those suffering now waiting for treatment, and who have lost loved ones as a result of lengthy waiting periods and lack of diagnostic equipment and needed drugs.. I want you to tell them that it’s ok, because the Canadian system is so much more “humane”..
Preventive health services are not gym memberships, Darrell, you willfully ignorant fuck.
They are regular visits to doctors, vaccinations, blood pressure monitoring and annual checkups, xrays and blood tests when appropriate, screenings for cancers and blood disorders, cholesterol measurements, PSA tests.
I get all of this stuff and on a schedule. That’s because I’m part of a very large “cap plan” to which my PCP (primary care physician) subscribes. The cap plan requires her and her associates to diligently keep her patients on a relatively short leash of preventive medicine precisely so that the costs, to the group, of poor preventive care are not passed on to the HMO, and then the group. Because poor care costs more than good care.
Read that last sentence over and over again until you understand it. The most expensive care is the least good care. The most expensive care neglects health support and screenings and prevention and leaves patients to drift into preventable illness, chronic illness and disability, and then more and more expensive measures that nobody can afford.
The most expensive thing you can do to a mixed population is to ignore preventive care.
One of the many reasons why this country is headed over a cliff of huge costs and health care availability crises, all of which would have been preventable and more affordable if only the people in charge had been honest with the patients and the citizens from the get go.
While you are being shown pictures of high tech machines, people are going without economical screenings and workups that would prevent illness and detect it early.
The things you don’t know about this subject would fill volumes. Like I said, step away from your computer and take your hand off your dick and go talk to some medical professionals and find out what is really going on out there.
Well, I find it impossible to believe that someone could be as obtuse as Darrell is in the face of evidence. And yet, there is prima facie evidence that Darrell is fantastically obtuse. I remain open to the possibility of an affirmative spoofing defense.
Because they lack the money to purchase good diagnostic and surgical equipment, and drugs needed for top tier treatment. Even good prothetics are out of the budget for most countries. Did that really need to be spelled out for you?
Darrell…sigh…I never, ever said our healthcare system was perfect. I certainly never said it was the best in the world. I will acknowledge freely that it needs improvement. However, all independent sources disagree with you when you say that the US system is the best in the world. This isn’t even about Canada anymore. This is about you, saying that your system is the absolute best. Your own countrymen disagree with you. The World Health Organization disagrees with you. We’re ALL going to need more proof than claims of shiny new equipment to be convinced that your system is indeed the best.
The article I cited said:
[emphasis mine, cite here].
In other words making the claim that the assumption to which you refer is not, in fact, false. Premature babies are counted as live births in those countries.
In other places, not, as you say. How to deal with this statistically? Factor in the still births as well.
Have you ever been to Finland, Darrell? Do you think that the Czech Republic is still a Soviet backwater?
I don’t know why it is so difficult for you to conceive of the idea that while we have the technology perhaps, the affordability for million and millions of Americans is simply not there. Corvettes and Vipers are available in the US as well, but that doesn’t mean that every American can afford one.
I went back and re-read the letter from Congressman Hoekstra and I can’t find a single word in it on “the US health care system,” or Terri Schiavo. How did all these comments wind up in this thread? Is it a computer malfunction of some sort?
What “independent” sources? And using what metrics? As has already been shown, there are less than a handful of top tier neonatal care facilities in all of europe, including “#1 ranked” France? Shouldn’t that fact alone cause you to question the ranking? of course not
Darrell, you horse’s ass. Finland has a low population, but an extremely healthy economy. It’s been rated by the World Economic Forum as the most economically competitive country in the world. Do you honestly believe that they can’t afford the same equipment you guys have?
The Czech Republic also has a very healthy, prosperous economy.
Are you that sheltered that you honestly think that nobody in the world has a better standard of living, better healthcare, or a better economy than the U.S.?
Is it a “Darrell malfunction” if that is, indeed, how a Darrell is intended to operate?
Shorter (five days if I remember the article — IIRC the heat wave in Europe was 2-3 weeks but that could be wrong). Also more localized; where I was that summer in Milwaukee it was surely hot, and a few people (order of a dozen or so) died there too but it wasn’t as bad as Chicago.
The amazing thing is that it never occurs to Darrell that the people who make and sell $10m machines or overpriced drugs might be contributed large sums to the campaigns of politicians who are sworn to uphold the American caste system of medical care (thank you, Krista, it’s the perfect moniker) and paying large sums to advertise and convince the uninformed that expensive drugs and fancy machines are proof of a great system … when in fact, the best healthcare is far from the most expensive.
That’s not a slogan or a rhetorical device … it’s based on actuarial reality. Prevention, early detection and intervention are far less costly than the alternatives.
The best health care is not the care that enriches Toshiba and GE for selling your hospital new equipment, it’s the care that delivers the most health to the largest number of people across economic and cultural lines of demarcation. The best care is not the most expensive care, it is the care that saves health, lives and money.
Again I say, if you think I’m wrong about this, ask some healthcare professionals and check it out.
Krista, although my experience with Canadian doctors is anecdotal, common sense says that many/most competent doctors in Canada would leave for the US where there is far more money for them to make, leaving Canada with the leftovers who can’t make the cut in the US. The two doctors I was treated by in Montreal were the worst I’ve ever experienced in my life. I’m sure you have many good doctors, but odds are, many/most of the better ones have left.. which is a real downside of govt healthcare
Hijacked by pirates. Arrrrrh, matey!
Seriously, I couldn’t think of much to say about Hoekstra that didn’t amount to aimless speculation.
No, it doesn’t. Why? Because neonatal care, while important, is only one factor when evaluating an ENTIRE FRACKING HEALTHCARE SYSTEM.
I looked at the WHO report. It did acknowledge that the U.S. is excellent in regards to its resources, and also in the professionalism and skill of its healthcare providers. But it got abysmal marks on access.
You’ve got a great healthcare system, Darrell. But only for those who can afford it. In a democracy, where all men are created equal (sound familiar?), why is your healthcare system class-based?
Why do you hate Americans, Darrell?
There are a number of doctors and nurses who do leave in order to make the big bucks, yes. However, it’s insulting and untrue to think that the only doctors left in Canada are those who “couldn’t make the cut” in the States. Once again, if our doctors here are so inferior to those in the US, then how come our healthcare is ranked higher?
I would bet my life that they have neither the same equipment (on a per capita basis), the same or equivalent drugs, or the same quality hospital care. I’m not saying they’re like Zimbabwe, but no way does it compare to the US. Have you been to a US hospital Krista? You should visit the ICU of one of our hospitals and then compare it to what you guys have in Canada
Haven’t we conclusively answered this? Because boy scouts might be gay, and molest the god-fearing scout leaders.
Does anybody know if the story on passinggas.com is true, namely that DougJ has left this world?
Having ZERO top tier neonatal care units (not one) + no ice in hospitals + no airconditioning.. That tells you France is lacking MANY other things which we take for granted here in the US. They may have access, except during heatwaves.12,000 dead, yet WHO ranks them #1? C’mon and think for yourself. I’m serious, has another first world country ever experienced such a (recent) disaster which was directly attributed to a crap health care delivery system? 12,000
Darrell is getting really close to winning “Stupidest Post, Ever.”
Surely this is a winning slogan:
“Canada: Somewhat Better Medical Care Than Zimbabwe”
But if I can’t afford to walk into the door of that American ICU then it might as well be in Zimbabwe for all the good it’ll do me.
Because the metrics used in the ranking were flawed. C’mon France #1? We’ve seen the French health care system. The enormity of 12,000 deaths cannot be dismissed
I’d love to, but I can’t afford it. You can come visit one of ours, though.
“France: We Kill the Elderly So You Don’t Have To”
Okay, that’s it, thread closed. Discussion over.
We are arguing with a guy who thinks that fancy ICU facilities are what make good national healthcare.
The people peering in from outside, who can’t get into those ICU’s? Fuck them. The people who are financially ruined because they did get into an ICU but don’t have coverage? Fuck them. The people who ended up in an ICU because they didn’t get preventive care or get screened and detected in time? Fuck them.
I agree with Darrell. I am one of the lucky ones who got in and had coverage. CIGNA paid my enormous bills and I am living large. Fuck the little people. The sooner they die off, the sooner I can rest easy about getting my Social Security benefits.
No I haven’t been to Finland, but I’ve been to the other 3 (wealthier) Scandinavian countries, each with heavy handed govt control. I love Scandinavia, but in Norway, for example, you can’t buy anything more than aspirin without first visiting a govt doctor. Whenever the govt decides what care is and is not available, consumers always get screwed (unless they’re politically connected)
Is there a major city or county in the US which doesn’t offer free, albeit somewhat lower quality health care to those who can’t pay?
The Other Steve
Actually it was 15,000 according to France.
People do die. It’s part of the natural cycle of things. We periodically have heatwaves that come through the midwest where elderly die too.
Just curious if you show similar outrage over this. They estimate each year 400 Americans die from heat. In the 1995 Chicago heatwave 739 residents died in one week.
The Other Steve
Wouldn’t the same be true of insurance?
No, moron. When a private company denies you the medicine you need to live, that’s FREEDOM.
But at least with insurance carriers can be changed. No such choice when govt is the health care monopoly. Insurance companies who get a rep for not paying lose clients.
That’s right, it’s much better when corporations decide what care is and is not available …. like they do in the United States.
Really? How do you do that? If I can’t the coverage I think I need from CIGNA, what’s my recourse?
Get another job that has different coverage?
Buy my own coverage for $1500 a month? In fact, I couldn’t get the coverage even for that amount.
Fucking idiot. You really have no idea how this works, do you?
Do you imagine that HMOs compete with each other by vying to see who can cover and pay the most?
Is that what your right wing websites are telling you?
The truth is that right now, employers are basically begging HMOs to offer them coverage and hoping they can cough up the higher and higher premiums. My employer, a very prosperous outfit that has about 17k employees, was dropped by Blue Cross when we balked at a huge premium increase. Dropped like a stone.
Every year, “negotiations” are undertaken to deal with rising premiums and declining coverage. The HMO wants to provide less and less, while charging more and more. And they can get away with this because the employer has no real choices. There are no firms out there who can come along and handle 17k new claimants, give the same coverage and charge lower fees. And CIGNA knows this. They basically have us over a barrel.
But in DarrellWorld, you have WalMart. There, the company can shirk healthcare costs and just encourage employees to apply for government benefits. So taxpayers end up paying for the health care provided to WalMart employees.
Employers like WalMart push healthcare costs off onto taxpayers because their business model won’t sustain the high costs of providing coverage to their lower tier of workers. Managers are covered immediately, of course.
Like we said, a caste system, with higher and higher costs providing care to a smaller and smaller percentage of workers.
The current model is not sustainable, and the jerkoff Republicans have no plan to deal with it, other than to ramp up the demagogic appeals whenever the subject gets attention. In short, Darrell.
Darryl, you should study up on this before you make these statements. I’m in the field, and I wasn’t surprised by the WHO ranking. Expensive drugs and ICUs do not great health care make.
While they help, good systems are much more important. High tech stuff benefits a very, very small percentage of the population. Good systems and preventive care benefit a much larger proportion.
And you’re right that someone presenting to an emergency room in acute distress will be cared for, but someone with diabetes or high blood pressure who needs regular care to avoid being one of those crisis patients often can’t get it. And yes, I *have* seen those people who don’t have insurance and can’t afford care, who don’t want to come in and build up a huge debt, so they come in far too late. And some die.
12,000 dead, France, premature infant care, prosthetics, ice, air conditioning, enchiladas, athletic clubs, itchy back rash, Anti-American WHO, etc, etc, etc….
Darrell? Where’d you go? Looking for more jackalopes and racoon dogs?
The Other Steve
Really? How can they be changed? Most people get their insurance through their employer. The only way to change insurance is to find a new job.
Which is part of the failure of our system, the insurance is not held responsible to the patient, but rather the employer. Kind of breaks the free market.
Which makes it no different than a bad govt program.
Makes it worse, actually. In a government program, ultimately the government is accountable to the people.
In the extant system, the corporations are accountable only to their shareholders. And the politicians are accountable only to their contributors.
The extant system is corrupt, dysfunctional, and unsustainable.
In short, it’s Republican.
How about a ranking that looks at the actual health of a population and the results from it’s hospitals instead of just counting ice machines and NICU units. (Counting hospital equipment is nothing more than a materialistic dick measuring contest.)
The heatwave event in France was tragic, but nothing compared to the tragedy of millions of people who go are forced to go completely without healthcare because they can’t afford it. (surely the reason France ranks higher than the US, even with those 12,000 deaths)
And having insurance doesn’t guarantee you anything either. A few years ago a friend of mine suffered a stroke while we were working for a company that provided healthcare coverage. A few months after that, the company folded and the insurance company was able to find a way to get out of paying for ANY of the medical costs. My friend was suddenly hit with 600K+ medical bill and had just lost his job. Bankruptcy was the only option. In his case… the insurance he thought he had (and had paid money out of his paycheck for) just wasn’t there. Now, my friend is working for a company that does NOT provide health insurance, and can not get affordable private health insurance. A few other people from the same company have similar stories, but none as sad.
As long as the US system is so tightly linked to the “for-profit” health insurance industry, I doubt we will ever be able to truely claim we have the best healthcare system. (No matter how many ice machines and NICUs we have)
Considering that Darrell is furiously masturbating while queering these threads, what you say is quite appropriate.
After he’s done he dusts off the cheetos, disappears and sleeps it off.
That’s really an unwanted visual ……
I’m continuously amazed at how this guy keeps getting feedback. If you wanted to debate with him on WMDs in Iraq, on Medicare Plan D, on FEMA in New Orleans, … …
This is a guy who defended Shavio’s Law, a Nationwide Federal Law passed for one person! Might as well take the stone off of Sysiphus’s hands.
At least its comforting to know that there’s a solid half a dozen people on this forum willing to spend hours out of their day refuting a man who wouldn’t believe the sun rose in the east if he was on a mountaintop with a compass at dawn. But seriously, re-read some of the pre-Darrel and pre-scs comments. Why are you guys wasting your energy? We could have had such a civil and sensical discussion.
Keep screaming that moonbat intolerance, Zinfab. It shows everyone what the left is all about. It’s what you do. No wonder you don’t win any elections.
Unless you start worshipping Bush, come November the destruction of the DemocRAT party will be complete.
Zifnab, Zinfab, whatever. All you Z people look the same.
Here’s my personal horror story about the fucked-up-ness of insurance in the US… and another example of how screwed our health care system really is.
I work for a business in Berkeley that has a second store in San Francisco. All told, both stores employ about 175 to 200 people. Over the last year, one of our employees had a stroke that he is still recovering from. Because of his claim, our insurance carrier is raising our rates for both stores by a third.
Our employers put an enormous effort into finding us the best insurance plan they could… and that best is a company of weaselly fucks who take advantage of a man’s personal tragedy to jack up their profits a sizable notch. Because the additional money our company and our employees will now be ponying up is a hell of a lot more than my friend has required for his care and therapy.
Meanwhile, my girlfriend has developed acute back problems, and her insurance plan is so lame that for anything more than a regular MD, (like physical therapy, chiropractic, etc) she has been obliged to pay out of pocket. Ten thousand bucks and counting thus far. She could regale you for hours about the rat’s maze of bureaucracy she’s had to stagger through for the past year just to get herself a goddamn x-ray.
Amazing how often I hear the subject of wrestling with the American medical system come up in conversation these days. It’s a popular a topic as sports, though it gets people a lot more pissed off.
But hey, our hospitals have the bestest and shiniest toys in the world, so our health care must be just jim-dandy, right? According to Darrell, that is.
For the first time, I’m starting to wonder if Darrell is a spoof. No one could be that imbecilic, could they…?
Exactly, United States has the best top-line care. Bar none. Our best beats everyone else’s best in the industrial nations.
However, our worst is also the worst in the industrial nations.
Which does raise the question what do we want – Great Healthcare for some, or Good healthcare for all?
Well Elmo, good news! Thank God for Darrell’s magical furry happy free market theory of insurance. You can just change providers and, WOW, you’re golden! All your problems are solved!
The nasty fleecing insurance company will be forced to lower his prices due to the magic invisible hand of Adam Smith or go out of business. There’s no monopoly or shady political deals messing with the magical free market either. No evil conspiracies. So don’t worry, be happy!
So get with the program, Baron! Tell Mr Stroke to buck up! Inform your girlfriend the pain in her back is all in her head, and if not, just change insurance companies! Kick that lame insurance to the curb. Get rid of that zero and get yourself a hero.
Hey this is fun. Denying reality is really neat.
And if you’re just starting to have doubts about Darrell, you either are here for the first time or haven’t been paying attention!
Look, a jackalope with shiny keys!
At least there exists the possibility of switching insurance companies, or jobs for that matter, whereas when govt is the monopoly, no such possibility exists. None. Zero. Yes, some people can’t switch insurance carriers because of pre-existing conditions. But ‘Nutcutter’ has, by his own admission, had a serious heart attack, yet he was able to get insurance. How about that for a “heartless” Republican system!
Except that a majority of lefties posting here are too irrational to even agree with that. Yes, if you have insurance, US is hands down the best place to be for health care. Bar none. And if you have no insurance, there is still a case to be made that even then you still have the best healthcare system available through free clinics, city and county hospitals, and charity hospitals and healthcare
You claim you are “in the business” and therefore know better, but then explain free city and county diabetes treatments like this, which I found after 20 seconds of googling. Free dental care and other non-emergency care treatment here. Lots of FREE medical treatment available for non-emergency medical treatment, including Free preventative medicine
Since you are “in the business”, can you explain how your assertions square with these facts?
I have heard of insurance companies not covering chiropractic treatment, some do others don’t, but I’ve never heard of any insurance company denying physical therapy. The fact that they would pay for an MD but not physical therapy after an injury or hospitalization doesn’t sound right to me.. I’ve never seen that before.
It was tragic, yes, and changes occurred as a result. The difference being, and it’s a gigantic difference, is that in France, when victims of heatstroke arrived at medical facilities, those facilities did not offer basic ice or air conditioning. Not because they were broken, but because many hospitals never had them. That would never happen here in the US and you know it.. even in the coldest regions of our country where AC isn’t often needed. Again, it demonstrates the idiocy of the ranking system which would award a country the “#1” best healthcare in the world. Incredible. What’s more incredible is the number of leftists who want so badly to believe in that bizarre ranking system to reinforce their whacked political beliefs.
The government doesn’t have to be a monopoly, as I’ve only told you many, many times now. Government can be first payer, and you then can shop around for the private insurance that you feel will best fill in the gaps for the co-pay.
And yes, Darrell, people will switch jobs because of the healthcare offered. I can really see a candidate asking in an interview, “So, which carrier do you use for your health benefits? Mind if I call them up to see what coverage they offer you?”
When it comes to employee health benefits, you don’t find out what the benefits are until you actually ARE an employee, ding-dong. Are you suggesting that people job-hop until they get the kind of coverage they want?
Canadian government, as I understand it, most definitely has a monopoly on providing health care services. All doctors, nurses, etc are on the Canadian government payroll. Canadian health insurance is available only to cover things like vision and dental care incidentals which may not be covered in the national plan. See here for more details.
Again, the Canadian government most definitely does have a monopoly on providing health care with no possibility of private doctor competition.
People switch jobs based on benefit packages all the time. I’m sorry you’re too ignorant to know, but many people here in the USA ask for and receive details on medical, dental, and other benefit packages that prospective employers are offering. Many employers showcase their benefits to attract the best talent. I find it astonishing that it doesn’t seem to be that way in “humane” Canada.
With all due respect, have you? I have, on multiple occasions, and between the bedsores from lack of basic nursing care and the repeated missed diagnostics, I think I’ll take whichever system has fewer machines that go beep and more doctors and nurses per patient.
I think the idea is that humanity implies that everyone gets health care at a basic level, instead of viewing it as a privelege for the wealthy or well-connected. Also, while companies may tout their coverage, it is near-impossible to gain useful statistics or information on customer service or patient outcomes for a given insurance plan.
Unsupported assertion. Make such a case if you think it can be done.
Someone with an absolute hard-on to indict the French system might use this to argue that their system is no good. On the other hand any normal person might realize that the French heat wave was unprecedented in Parisian history.
Think about this: once in a very long while North Carolina gets an inch or two of short-lived snow. When this happens the roads become practically empty. Nobody drives, the city makes no effort to clear the snow and everybody who doesn’t have an emergency to attend to pretty much sits on their thumbs until it melts away. Using Darrell logic I could argue that this makes NC sub-par, practically a third-world country. How could they possible not be ready for a few inches of snow? Because, brainiac, they basically never get snow and have no local expertise in dealing with it.
I’m not dumb enough to kick a mule twice so feel free to take my point or leave it.
Spin till you’re blue in the face Tim, but it is INEXCUSABLE for these hospitals not to have ice or air conditioning, especially since temps in France often spike into the high 80’s or more during summer months. Northern Minnesota rarely needs air conditioning, but you can bet your life every singe hospital there has both ice and air conditioning. No AC or ice in hospitals in France is unforgivable. Again, it’s not that their AC and ice machines were broken, many of these hospitals never had them.
neighboring Switzerland had even hotter weather then France at that time in the summer of 2003, but no massive death toll.. that says it all, really
City and county hospitals provide free basic level services, as well as surgery for those who cannot afford it. Furthermore, what of the many of the uninsured who can well afford health insurance but choose not to buy it?.. not unlike motorists who fail to buy car insurance.
I hope you sued/are suing those fuckers.