This is the kind of thing that scares the hell out of me:
The American soldiers accused of raping an Iraqi girl and then murdering her and her family may have provoked an insurgent revenge plot in which two of their comrades were abducted and beheaded last month, it has been claimed.
Pte Kristian Menchaca, 23, and Pte Thomas Tucker, 25, were snatched from a checkpoint near the town of Yusufiyah on June 16 in what was thought at the time to be random terrorist retaliation for the killing of the al-Qaeda leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in an American air strike two days earlier.
Now, however, residents of the neighbouring town of Mahmoudiyah have told The Sunday Telegraph that their kidnap was carried out to avenge the attack on a local girl Abeer Qassim Hamza, 15, and her family. They claim that insurgents have vowed to kidnap and kill another eight American troops to exact a 10-to-one revenge for the rape and murder of the girl.
There is just something creepy and sick about a mentality that suggests that killing ten random people somehow exacts revenge on someone totally unrelated.
fwiffo
Well, they percieve the rape and murder as an act of the US military, so they’re taking out their revenge on the US military. It’s sick, but since things like torture are official US policy, it’s not exactly surprising if somebody makes the assumption that rape is also official policy. Have they got a good reason to believe otherwise? Rape and torture occupy roughly the same space on the moral spectrum of “evil stuff we shouldn’t ever do.”
The problem I see with this story is cronology – I was under the impression that it was the other way around, that the rape and murder occured after the kidnapping and beheading.
Jason
Yeah, it’s war, DUH. When an invading army attacks you in any way, you strike back at the invading army. Whether it’s some other part of the army or not doesn’t matter. I think they are so sick of the occupation that they’d strike out at any of our troops that are there, no matter what the soldier’s opinions are.
Mr Furious
I’m not sure exactly why that is scarier or worse than the otherwise random attacks on troops. Any time they kill a soldier, he/she is “unrelated” to the reason for the attack, in a sense. Since they cannot strike at Bush or rumsfeld, the nearest GI walking down the block will have to do.
Same thing here. While it is unusual that there is a “revenge ratio”, frankly, one could almost have relief that they will stop after ten.
While not in any way noble, I’d categorize these attacks as among the more justifiable.
It’s why the hearts and minds matter. Why abu ghraib matters. Why torture matters.
Mr Furious
Here’s a hypothetical…
If tomorrow Rumsfeld or Bush announced a ten-to-one punishment policy in an attempt to wrest control of the country (ie: if you kill a US soldier we will kill ten Iraqis to “punish” the village), how many on the right would go right along and cheer Bush finally getting tough, “doing whatever it takes”, “speaking the only language these people will understand” , etc.
Now, that scares the hell out of me.
Sirkowski
The Vandetta system makes a lot more sense than attacking a country that never attacked you. And they’re not random people, they’re all part of a family, the military.
ape
‘Random people’.
I think’s it’s a bit scarier still when an otherwise sensible and not rabidly pro-BushCheneyRumsfeld commentator thinks that the US military in Iraq are ‘random people’ and thus something akin to innocent bystanders in the ravaging of a country.
The plain truth is that savage violence in various forms enacted against innocent (ie, not proven guilty) civilians has been tacitly approved up to the highest levels by the US military, and that the particular case mentioned here involved a cover-up beyond the actual participants. (As have many other violations).
Of course, like Rush et al say, noone’s been proven guilty in this case. Which is why the right say alleged atrocities should not be reported by an irresponsible MSM. An excellent situation for us all.. as one commentator said: “Many Bush supporters believe that truth is not on our side and must be suppressed. Yet, they support a war that is too shameful to report.”
- F
John,
Col. Lang of Sic Semper Tyrannis had a discussion a few weeks ago on the differences between “warriors and Warrior Wannabes” and how the Warrior Wannabes have impacted our military and our policies in regards to Iraq. His discussion was led off by a reference to a screed by Fred of “fredoneverything” who titles his piece “Of Recent Wars”, Fred gives his take on how we got into our splendid mess in Iraq and why we can’t get out.
As a former military man I found this discussion to be very interesting as it seemed to encapsulate my feelings on our current administrations policy makers and their misuse of our military. In particular, I found the comments on the Warrior Wannabes usage of language to garner support for their war to be prescient in regards to what has been said in the recent past of those who questioned the Iraq war and what is currently being said about the NY Times and others who question the president and his polices.
Sic Semper Tyrannis:
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2006/07/warriors_and_wa.html#comments
Fred On Everything
http://www.fredoneverything.net/TheWarrior.shtml
Col. Lang and his commenters are primarily military/ex-military (warriors with a small w) who are shaken by the abuses going on in their military and they discuss how this could have come about. Fred speaks from his personal experience as a small town boy who served his country through one “bad” war and is now seeing it going through another one. The both give their explanation of why we are where we at and whose to blame.
John, every time I hear the fat overstuffed Wannabee in my office speak about the Army and how we should it do things in Irag I just want…. It may take awhile for us to complete, but we the people will take our military and our country back from this group of Wannabes.
P.S.
Also, I think you’ll love the reference to the special place being reserved for Rumsfeld in the Robert Strange McNamara Wing of Hell.
demimondian
You know, John, the story sounds entirely too pat to me,and I don’t think it’s true. I think that the local insurgents see a way to get some sympathy by playing on the fact that the Americans had a cluth of rotten apples among them, and thought about back-dating their — or, more likely, somebody else’s — recent activity to garner some local support.
SomeCallMeTim
There is just something creepy and sick about a mentality that suggests that killing ten random people somehow exacts revenge on someone totally unrelated.
Is that a subtle, pointed comment about 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq? If so, it’s funny and well-made, and I’m glad you’ve come around on the fact that the invasion was a mistake.
I feel terrible for the families of the two soldiers, though. Ugh.
Steve
Yeah, I mean, let’s not pretend that these so-called “acts of retaliation” weren’t going to happen anyway.
I think, absolutely, that abuses of the local population (like Abu Ghraib) come back to haunt us in terms of increased violence, and that’s the purely selfish reason why we should try to curb those abuses. But I hardly think the payoff comes as neatly packaged as this suggests.
srv
What SomeCallMeTim said.
Punchy
That’s ten-to-one KNOWN RAPED AND KILLED. How many more Haditha-type dilleos that we DON’T know about? For all we know, they could kill 8 more and the ratio’d still only be one-to-one.
By the way, for what’s it’s worth, if a gang raped and killed MY sister, I wouldn’t even dream at stopping at one (ya know, to keep the ratio “even”).
Joel
SomeCallMeTim wins the prize for best comment in this thread.
We reap what we sow, and all that.
Richard 23
There’s also something sick and creepy about raping a girl, killing her family and torching her body, especially when the family were civilians. I don’t remember what Balloon Juice said about the original story, but I’m sure it must’ve been pretty angry.
ape
Well done, well done somecallmetim.
“creepy and sick” is a description of Donald Rumsfeld that we can all feel satisfied with.
Ancient Purple
But, but, but…
Freedom is on the march and everything is going well in Iraq and the insurgency is in its last throes.
The Other Steve
Not clear.
Did they come from the same unit? If their insignia on their uniforms was the same, it doesn’t seem to me that you can sya they were unrelated.
ape
..and the smoking gun may arrive in the form of a mushroom cloud.
and if you’d voted for Kerry, you would have been torn apart by wolves. which is worse really: US reputation in tatters and troops cracking-up in the face of drifting goals and a vicious enemy; or you and your family already having been torn apart by packs of carnivorous mammals?
Eural
Of course we’re not there to become engaged in a ruthless cycle of criminal violence and occupation.
The Germans said much the same thing in Belgium in 1914.
tomtom
It’s the tribal mentality. You hurt one of ours, now we hurt one of yours. Not saying that all Iraqis think this way, but that certainly seems to be the mindset of the individuals in this situation.
Nikki
I believe that they did. The info about the rape and murder didn’t come out until the soldiers from the abducted 2 soldiers’ unit were being “destressed.” One of them felt guilty enough to confess.
Sam Hutcheson
We should also bear in mind the recent history of the people retaliating on the “creepy” 10 for 1 scale. Over the course of these folks’ lives, if a girl was raped and murdered by a member of the reigning military, it could be assumed that the entire squad/military could be held accountable. Just because the uniform of the military has changed doesn’t mean the people suddenly trust the “bad apple” theory of miscreant behavior. (And the US certainly hasn’t done a good job of distinguishing how our military is notably better than the former in regards to things like this. Terribly sad statement, I know, but true nonetheless.)
Zifnab
Unfortunately, when a squad of soldiers attacks or injures a civilian or innocent bystander, intentionally or not, they typically don’t leave their dog tags behind for easy identification. These Iraqis are feeling attacked by faceless, nameless soldiers. They aren’t going to lay down and take it, but at the same time they can’t go headhunting for Pte Joe Johnson in particular if he was the one who allegedly raped someone’s wife or daughter. Lashing out like this isn’t necessarily smart from a tactical or even a moral sense, but I’m sure for a moment the avenger feels a little better. And if it takes out one more US soldier, in some minds perhaps that’s the same as taking another rapist or murderer off the streets of Bagdad to make everyone else a little safer.
What else do you expect these guys to do?
srv
Why, to operate with the exact same cultural mores and values as we do here in BF-America. What’s wrong with these people? All this moral-equivalency stuff, sheesh.
This theory at least clicks. The kidnapping of the two soldiers was so unusual compared to the standard insurgent modus operandi. Capturing and torturing takes alot more time, planning and engenders more risk than just killing.
Tim/John, I have a suggestion for a new topic – if God told Bush to go into Iraq (or Bush believes he is acting for God), is it God’s fault now? Could GW’s obstinence really be not be about CYA, legacy and being a moron to reality, but that failure in Iraq == God is dead?
Sam Hutcheson
if God told Bush to go into Iraq (or Bush believes he is acting for God), is it God’s fault now?
That would be the thinking of the non-faithful. I can’t remember the place and writer off of the top of my head, but there was a pretty insightful story done on Bush’s faith. Maybe Robert Wright (nonzero.org). It actually sheds a good deal of light on why the man acts the way he does. He has made the decision that his actions are those God has commanded him to take. At this point, any evidence that those actions were wrong or misguided is not reality coming back to bite misguided policy, but rather _tests of his faith in God put forth as stumbling blocks._ To kowtow to “reality” would be to lose faith in God. Think Job, here.
Yeah, it really is that scary.
Perry Como
Is it really shocking that barbaric behavior is occurring under the exact same people that covered up Tiger Force in Vietnam?
Eural
Thanks Perry Como – just checked out your link.
Why does everything have to go back to Cheney and Rumsfeld? I’m reading The Assassin’s Gate by George Packer and one of the overwhelming lessons I’m getting from it is the incredible failure of the Rumsfeld/Cheney team to ever get anything right. And yet, they make all the decisions….It’s like a sad joke, really…
Perry Como
It’s part of their mantra. If at first you don’t succeed, fuck something else up.
demimondian
Not exactly. The real form of the mantra is: if at any time you don’t succeed, change the subject as in the most dramatic fashion possible.
The Other Steve
Yep, heard it confirmed… Same platoon.
jsf61
It is actually tribal law,…… which of course in the total destruction of Iraqi society is the only remaining form of justice,……
The rape is only worth the mutilation and death of the rapists, however, if the other tribe or family hides and protects the rapists, then 10 male members of the rapists tribes lifes are the price, ( or handing over the rapist).
As yet, no comment has been made on the costs of the other lives, ( brother, mother) taken by the rapist,…..
and it appears that the soldiers at the checkpoint, were actually hung out to dry like the goat in Jurassic Park by their commander for exposing the rape,….