Meet the modern stone agers:
President Bush vetoed a bill for the first time today, using his constitutional power to reject legislation passed by Congress that would expand federal research on embryonic stem cells, a step he said would be “crossing a moral line.”
“This bill would support the taking of innocent human life,” Mr. Bush said at the White House, surrounded by scores of children born as a result of an embryo-adoption program and their parents.
“These boys and girls are not spare parts,” Mr. Bush said, to loud applause.
Undifferentiated globs of cells are now to be treated as your equal. That doesn’t make much sense until you realize who voted against the legislation, leaving it short of a veto-proof majority:
Allard (R-CO)
Allen (R-VA)
Bond (R-MO)
Brownback (R-KS)
Bunning (R-KY)
Burns (R-MT)
Chambliss (R-GA)
Coburn (R-OK)
Coleman (R-MN)
Cornyn (R-TX)
Craig (R-ID)
Crapo (R-ID)
DeMint (R-SC)
DeWine (R-OH)
Dole (R-NC)
Domenici (R-NM)
Ensign (R-NV)
Enzi (R-WY)
Graham (R-SC)
Grassley (R-IA)
Hagel (R-NE)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Isakson (R-GA)
Kyl (R-AZ)
Martinez (R-FL)
McConnell (R-KY)
Nelson (D-NE)
Roberts (R-KS)
Santorum (R-PA)
Sessions (R-AL)
Shelby (R-AL)
Sununu (R-NH)
Talent (R-MO)
Thomas (R-WY)
Thune (R-SD)
Vitter (R-LA)
Voinovich (R-OH)
One can understand why Rick Santorum would side with the unthinking and unfeeling cells with little future. The bolded individuals are up for election in 2006. Support their opponents, even if that means NANCY PELOSI AND ROBERT BYRD WILL BE RUNNING THINGS. BOO! And while we are at it, kudos to Orrin Hatch, Bill Frist, and a few others who parted with the lunatic fringe on this issue and supported the stem cell legislation.
I support giving the ‘culture of life’ crowd some room, and I respect their right to differ on issues with me. That doesn’t mean I am going to give them any quarter when they are flat-out making things up, as they are when they claim these cells are human life. They are not, and even with this legislation vetoed, they never will be. Not one life was saved with this bill, and while Chuck Schumer is clearly overstating things and exaggerating the state of stem cell research, this is a step backwards.
Daniel DiRito
To see the stem cell debate explained with visuals and how the political argument put forth by the President is ultimately an absurd manipulation of the facts…link here:
http://www.thoughttheater.com
KC
Ah, what the hell. If there was a veto proof majority, our strict constructionist president probably would have just signed the bill, but issued a signing statement to ensure that research funds would go nowhere. After all, a veto proof majority is nothing more than an assault on the “unitary executive,” right?
Steve
Here’s an interesting piece on this issue.
Pb
Incidentally, this statement
is still true even if embryos *are* human lives. That’s what makes this debate so incredibly, mind-numbingly stupid.
Let’s recap: either way, these embryos will be destroyed–however, if the bill *had* been passed, then those embryos (that will be destroyed) could potentially be used to *save lives* in the future.
So, really, all they possibly could have done is caused more death in the long run. Some ‘culture of life’ that is–state-run executions, unnecessary wars, and dangerous ignorance? Count me out.
DougJ
That’s the real issue here — Senator Schumer’s crazy statements. Didn’t he say he invented stem cells once on the Senate floor? It just goes to show, you just can’t trust either party on this issue.
KC
Amen DougJ.
jaime
Crazy Leonardo Da Vinci came up with these Crazy diagrams exaggerating the state of human flight. Imagine that? People Flying? Heathen Blasphemer!
Andrew
The President has his priorities straight. Cooking up embryos for stem cell research won’t do a single thing to protect us from World War IV.
DougJ
Protect us from it? World War IV is a gift to the world.
Pb
Ok, now I’m almost curious. What crazy thing did Schumer say. Are we talking, you can get AIDS from tears crazy? Or just ‘This bill would support the taking of innocent human life’ crazy?
DougJ
It’s not so much what he said but the fact that he screamed it to a group of supporters while windsurfing.
Pb
DougJ, don’t you worry about Schumer–Embryo Veterans For Truth will straighten this whole thing out!
RSA
I wish I could say I had higher expectations of Bush. His spokesman says that signing that bill would be tantamount to condoning murder. This means that, in Bush’s mind, federal funding for murder is wrong, but private or state funding for it is okay. Not that I expect consistency or anything, or even a clear moral statement. He is a man-child, after all.
Steve
Well, it makes sense to say we shouldn’t use taxpayer dollars for something that a large segment of the public has strong moral objections to, like stem cell research, abortion, or the war in Iraq. Oops, I think I got off message there.
Tim F.
Proving that there is no such thing as a shameful exit for the ideologically correct, Maggie Gallagher has an opinion.
Marcus Wellby
I hope to see a balanced debate on the news tonight — perhaps a well credentialed scientist could prevent one side of this complex issue, and someone from the “God Hates Fags” crew could present the other. Would be enlightening I am sure.
DougJ
The “God Hates Fags” crew has more credibility than Chuck Schumer in my book.
SeesThroughIt
Terrific work in this thread, DougJ.
By the way, just as I am in favor of mandatory abortions (and, of course, recreational abortions), I am in favor of mandatory embryo harvesting. Actually, that doesn’t go far enough I want to create embryos, develop them in a lab, wait until they become fully-formed 14-year-olds (which they absolutely, positively will do in the lab), then steal their organs to give to gay people as wedding presents.
Marcus Wellby
How long before the renowned geneticist Jonah Goldberg weighs in with an informed and vital position on this?
Nutcutter
I think the Schumer thing is a little over their heads, Doug.
If we could post pictures, this would be a good place for some photos of murdered stem cells.
Steve
Speaking of Fred Phelps, if you haven’t seen this clip of one of the “God Hates Fags” people on Fox News, it’s unbelievable.
DougJ
What’s a brother got to do to get John Cole to tell him to fuck off these days?
capelza
Call Tunch Cindy?
Perry Como
The important thing to remember is that both sides deserve equal respect on the issue.
jaime
I’m going to pre-Godwin this thread. MENGELEMENGELEMENGELEMENGELEMENGELE.
jaime
and maybe people can go here.
Andrew
Here you go:
RSA
How dare you expose an innocent, undifferentiated glob of cells to the corrosive climate of this blog. You’ll get Embryo Services on your ass if you keep it up.
jaime
Then you’ll lose your embryo tax cut.
capelza
Will the IRA let me count ALL my eggs as dependents now? That should work out nicely. Even if I have to spend the money to turn them into blatocysts and deep freeze them, I’ll be way ahead over the years. And I don’t ever have to worry about paying for college either!
capelza
Damn! That should have rea IRS.
John Cole
God damn you DougJ- you queered this fucking thread before it had a start. Clearly, the main issue is not Chuck Schumer’s statements (and I am not talking about the ones about faith, but the ones he made in a press conference which are not linked yet in which I feel he overstates the current status of stem cell research), but the veto by Bush and the knuckledraggers who support it.
But you don’t really think I feel Chuck Schumer’s comments are the main thing of importance, because you are just a nuisance and a troll (What’s a brother got to do to get John Cole to tell him to fuck off these days?). Just go away. The Poorman needs writers. Apply there.
Does that make you feel better?
Perry Como
That’s an awesome idea. I need to call my wife…
Andrew
Wait a second! Maybe Bush was trying to squeeze some stem cells out of Merkel to save them from the clutches of nefarious German researchers.
John Cole
Just out of curiosity, DougJ. Why do you do this to threads? You agree with me regarding this post, yet now you are whipping everyone into attacking me. Again. because you know damned well how this will turn out- Richard Bottoms and some other pain in the rear will start claiming I am going to support Bush becuase Schumer said something stupid, and off we go to another DougJ inspired circle jerk where everything I say is misrepresented.
Why? Why do you make it more painful to agree with you than disagree with you? I really am curious. Is this an election strategy?
Pb
PoTD!
RSA
Not only that, but you’ll be able to retire nine months earlier than you’d expected. Of course, that means you’re nine months older. . .
Sstarr
Hey moonbats! Just you wait! Now that we’ve saved the embryos from extermination we can start our crusade to save the billions of pre-embryos that are destroyed every day. Our first step will be banning birth control. And, of course, porn. And maybe Victoria’s Secret catalogs.
Pb
John Cole,
Who’s attacking you? I only do so when you say something stupid. Like so.
As for the Schumer thing, that was just entertainment, but since it’s been brought up, I would like to know what he said–and if there’s not a link yet, that’s cool.
Steve
DougJ wins.
The truth is that we don’t really have a thread in the first place until someone shows up to defend Bush’s veto. I see Bush celebrated the veto with yet another photo-op with the “snowflake babies” – suggesting stem-cell research supporters would have murdered these tots in their cribs if only they had gotten their way.
I had actually taken this to be a Tim post at first, not so much because it attacks Bush, but simply because Tim is the science guy. I guess it might be refreshing for someone to mistake John for Tim, for once.
John Cole
PB- Wait ten comments. DougJ knows what he is doing.
Pb
RSA,
Or maybe 7 or 8 months–I was premature. And WTF is my birthday now? Ahh…
Incidentally, I think I’m in my 115th trimester.
Olly McPherson
Anyone who favors mandatory abortions should be sure to check out this site from the Pro-Abortion People of America.
Note: there aren’t any graphic pictures–click without fear.
Pb
If it makes you feel any better, John, I even managed to post something before DougJ did. But, as Steve mentions, “we don’t really have a thread in the first place until someone shows up to defend Bush’s veto”. And if they do, I’ll almost certainly ridicule them, because this is the Stupidest Veto I’ve ever seen. It really is a shameful thing to behold–apparently, Karl Rove is betting that Bush’s base actually is that stupid.
Steve
John, I’m still waiting for Howard Dean to start screaming that Cheney was drunk. You have this bad habit of prophesying conflicts that never arise.
I realize you have a contractual obligation to PJM to include a snarky backswipe at the Dems in each anti-Bush post, and this one was milder than most. DougJ just doesn’t want it to become automatic to the point where you forget you’re doing it.
Krista
Great idea, capelza! Oh, but if I’m on the Pill, does that make me a before-the-fact abortionist? Am I a murderess of yet-to-be-conceived babies?
I feel so guilty.
John Cole
Thanks for a dose of bad faith, Steve. For the record, PJM has not told me nor will tell me ever what to write, additionally, this was not a backswipe at Dems, it was my reaction to Schumer’s statements in the media, which I will link the moment is available.
Pb
And remember, boys… Every Sperm Is Sacred…
Steve
Come on, John, be a sport. My comment was like 110% tongue in cheek.
tBone
Uh, because he knows you’re an easy mark? People push your buttons because they know they’ll get a reaction.
BTW Cindy Sheehan RULES!
John Cole
My apologies, then, Steve. Forgive me if I am a little touchy after being raked over the coals the past month for AGREEING with you all.
I liked this website better when I disagreed with you folks.
The Other Steve
I think President Bush did the right thing here.
Public funding for research is a bad thing. It hurts business, because it forces them to compete on efficiency of production rather than being first to market with new patented technologies.
Or something like that. I want to defend Bush just to be different, but I’m seriously having a tought time coming up with something.
Punchy
As I’ve said before, once in the trash, these clinic embryoes will be picked up by the Mobile Abortion Trucks and carried to Permanent Abortion Landfills where they will be starved and heated to death.
To prevent this, I think all women should stalk these clinics with latex gloves and turkey basters. Faster to get these kids a warm uterus to monkey around in….
Steve
I’ve read some of the posts from back then. Yowza.
I strongly believe you need to do a post like this one. I say this with nothing but love in my heart, mind you!
SeesThroughIt
It absolutely does, Krista. Every single day you take the Pill–yes even those days when the Pill is actually just a sugar pill–you personally murder at least one baby. it could be more than one per day–maybe it was twins or triplets you murdered before they had a chance to exist–but at any rate, your campaign to murder any and all babies has not gone unnoticed!
Punchy
Nah. The pill shuts off FSH and LH, preventing follice maturation. You’re not ovulating an actual egg. In a sense, you’re shooting blanks.
Marcus Wellby
The mental giants of modern conservatism speak:
*the post title says it all. That dingbat makes Jonah sound Einsteinian.
DougJ
John, I feel a lot better now. I felt like you were going through the motions at first, but it got better as you went along.
The best part is that I can go two solid months without doing this and still get to you ask why I “always” do it.
RSA
Maybe open to a conspiracy count, though.
John S.
Chin up, Cole. At least you haven’t been the target of incessant juvenile pillorying in the way Glenn Greenwald has by some of your favorite blogpals like Jeff Goldstein and Patterico.
You want to talk about being raked over the coals…
John S.
And for those of you unfamiliar with the Greenwald vs. The Entire Rightwing Blogosphere saga, here’s a jolly recounting of it by The Poorman.
I’m waiting for John to weigh in on the matter with a Blogospheric Navel-Gazing post, but I won’t hold my breath given some of the participants.
Zifnab
hehe. Hey, John, you could always start a new site with Darrell. But seriously, if Darrell bothers you this much, the simpliest thing to do is not respond to his threads. People respect what you have to say enough to get back on topic if you just… stay on topic. If you’ve got something to add, awesome. We are hear to listen. If not, don’t give DougJ more attention than he already does. Christ. We love you man, but sometimes you’re just so… easy.
And we all know Darrell and DougJ are the same person, so don’t take that first suggestion seriously, you’ll only be hurting yourself.
RSA
Oh, and the irony of TOS’s having posted this with the expectation that scads of other people will be able to read it, using a descendant of ARPANET, is palpable. Two thirds of the innovations in computer science, almost since its inception as a field, can be traced back to funding from DARPA’s Information Processing Technology Office. Fortunately, computers don’t pose as many hot button issues as medical research.
Pb
John Cole,
At least that wasn’t our doing. :)
FLIP-FLOP! John Cole disagreed with us–before he agreed with us! How can we trust his opinion, when it shifts in the wind? What does John Cole stand for? Why can’t he just stay the course?
….is that any better?
Anderson
Okay, I’ve ignored this issue forever & had to wiki up “stem cells” to see what was even going on.
I admit to finding it a little creepy to make batches of embryos and use them for medical experiments.
But apparently I am behind the times and our fertility clinics are producing thousands of embryos and trashing them like candy-bar wrappers.
In which case, either use the things or don’t produce them at all. I suppose the latter would shut down fertility treatments for lots of women?
DougJ
I’m glad you came by to share your newfound expertise with us, then.
Pb
The Other Steve,
That’s an interesting argument, but not one that I would make or buy into… public funding is bad for business because it encourages competition in the free market, instead of allowing for limited monopolies?
Keep working on it…
HyperIon
as someone who is REALLY tired of Darrell, i wondering if you could ask HIM that.
Steve
Anderson, the link in my 3:07 post may give you some more information about the procedure.
DougJ
Okay, I’ve ignored the war forever and had to wiki “Iraq” to see what was going on.
I admit to finding it a little creepy to invade a country because of 9/11 when the country had nothing to do with 9/11.
John S.
How does one converse with a sockpuppet? You’d really have to address whoever the hand underneath is attached to.
Some posit that Darrell is DougJ, but frankly I have never seen any of his characters quite so full of vitriol. My money is on Darrell either being Jeff Goldstein or possibly even John Cole himself.
After all, somebody has to keep the right-wing narrative going around here, don’t they?
Krista
Punchy – thanks for the science lesson. I was just being facetious, though.
And John, I wouldn’t take it personally when Doug starts busting chops. It might not be your chops he’s aiming at. We ARE a bit of a community here, and he could very well be aiming at Mac Buckets, or Darrell, or one of the other die-hard righties.
Or, he could just be busting your chops because you’re so easy to rile up.
Punchy
Good Lord. If this is how backwards you are on the science of stem cells…well…I’ve got a shiny, used Apple IIc to sell ya…
jg
My money has always been on Cole being Darrell. Darrel is to Cole as funding palestinian suicide bombers was to Saddam. An attempt at street cred.
capelza
I refuse to believe that Darrell is John Cole. I.Just.Will.Not.Believe.That.
I really do know people like Darrel from other sites. One guy has been going on like this for years. He’s a Protest Warrior (inseert snicker here). Even the other righties call him an idiot. They really are out there.
Punchy
Just wanted you to know what all that progesterone and estrogen was doing to your body besides causing you to get lost while driving and worrying incessantly about toliet seat up/toilet seat down. ;)
Otto Man
I liked this website better when I disagreed with you folks.
And I liked the world better when I disagreed with Orrin Hatch and Bill Frist.
But, hey, President Bush is a uniter! He’s gotten us all to agree that this is a stupid fucking idea.
tzs
Umm…(trying to post something reasonably on topic)…has anyone in the Administration thought for two seconds about what the result of this does?
Situation: limited gov’t funding for stem cell research.
Result: stem cell research not done in US. Done outside US instead, maybe a bit slower. Meaning: US doesn’t keep any of the goodies of the research, other places do.
or: stem cell research done in US but totally privately, with no restrictions whatsover. Companies do whatever they damn well please.
Could someone explain to me the Administration justification as to how either of these result in a win to the US?!
jaime
Desired Result…Right Wing Christo-Wackos are satiated enough to vote for their local recurring Failure of a representative.
John Cole
I am not Darrell. Tim F. Can look at the IP addresses and verify.
Or the rest of you could look at the typos in my posts and note there are not as many in Darrell’s.
Pb
tzs,
They think that’s a win (“Companies do whatever they damn well please”). It’s the “invisible hand of the free market at work”. In this case, Bigby’s Crushing Hand.
Mike S
.
That is the funniest DougJ type thing since that pro life moron quoted an Onion piece as reality. My favorite quotes from the front page:
Andrew
Heh, yeah righ, “Tim F.”
Don’t you mean Stormy/ParR?
Sojourner
Yeh, they are.
Pb
Mike S,
I liked this one:
Too subtle, perhaps? :)
Krista
Hardly. I’m an awesome driver. And life’s way too damn short to get angry about toilet seats.
smijer
Damn you for thinking of that first.
searp
Did anyone catch some of the congressional debate on this? We had the spectacle of various politician-apparatchiks actually pronouncing on the science of the thing, talking about dult stem cells, cord blood stem cells, therapies, etc. as though they actually knew anything about the subject.
It ranked right up there with the debate on Terri Schiavo for stupid, hubristic cant level. I am going to pray for salvation from idiotic and pretentious mediocrities.
Jill
“…this is a step backwards.”
Just one of many since December 13, 2000.
Pb
searp,
John Cole did, he essentially said what you said, regarding Chuck Schumer’s comments, whatever those might have been.
Re: Schiavo–hopefully, Schumer didn’t go so far as to attempt a remote medical diagnosis of an embryo by video!
Anderson
Wow, DougJ, you really *are* in asshole mode lately, aren’t you?
Sorry if you think federal funding of stem cell research is on the same order of magnitude as the Iraq war … or that it’s somehow mandatory for every liberal to keep up with every issue that you think important … or to pipe up and say “okay, I admit I haven’t been paying attention, but now I am.”
Maybe some of us have real lives, jobs, families, etc.?
Steve: thanks very much for the pointer.
mds
Yet, somehow, use of a larger dose in the “morning after” pill is abortion. How did this brainless theocratic minority get such power over us, anyway? (Please, this is a rhetorical question; I’d rather not spoil the new atmosphere of comity + DougJ around here.)
DougJ
Maybe some of us have real lives, jobs, families, etc.?
That’s right — having a family means you shouldn’t think too much about health care. I’m sure all the parents of kids with diseases that might be treated with stem cells don’t think much about the issue either. But maybe these parents have to spend so much time caring for their sick kids that they don’t have “real lives” anymore.
Jill
Well, Sammy the Stem Cell (™ Marc Maron) would beg to differ with you about whether he is a full-blown human being. :)
Tim F.
People, get a fucking grip. If John wanted to rile up the locals he would put up a Sheehan post.
And please stop with this constant freaking out over Darrell. Let’s say hypothetically that you cannot spot the logical fallacy and you don’t have the facts to prove that he is wrong. Maybe you suck at spotting fallacies, since his are usually fairly obvious (check here if you need a reference). Or maybe you don’t have expertise in a particular field. Or maybe you’ve hit the rare occasion when he’s right about something. None of those scenarios strike me as worth getting bent out of shape about.