Murray Waas explains to Josh Marshall why Republicans go out of their way to work the refs:
[P]eople should note that if the Times is particularly restrained in its coverage of this story, it’s not for ideological reasons but that against their will, they have become part of the story instead of just covering the story, since the president has ordered an investigation of them and the House of Representatives has denounced the paper. I don’t think it’s bias; it’s the editor of the Times wanting to go forward with restraint.”
The crux of this story has legs – after granting security clearances for investigators to look into who leaked classified eavesdropping-related info to the New York Times the president personally intervened to deny the same clearance to DOJ investigators planning to look into the eavesdropping itself. In other words oversight for thee, but not for me. The WaPo obviously recognized that this unprecedented move has a real news angle, so why did the NY Times sit this one out?
Waas plausibly explains that the Times has already faced a world of shit over its previous reporting (also known as diong its job) so the editors decided to take a pass. Maybe give the hornets a chance to settle down. Now ask yourself why in the world Republicans would want to beat themselves into a hysterical froth over journalists doing their jobs when the only thing they get out of it is…the journalists walk on eggshells the next time the news might make Republicans look bad. Maybe kill a story or two rather than invite another round of abuse.
Let’s set aside the principled nonsense and call behavior like this for what it is: a cynical tactic that works like a charm. There’s your answer, Glenn, when you wonder why folks like Howie Kurtz obsess over potty-mouthed liberals and ignore the daily drumbeat of death talk and violent rhetoric on the right. Vulgarity may damage the delicate media sensibilities but in the end it just isn’t much of a threat.
Punchy
Mr. Cole, I fucking HATE your dumbass party
It’s become just insane what these fuckers will say.
radish
Not Josh, Justin Rood. Josh is the fat-cat in the corner office (the one that has its own sauna) who sits there watching his investments go up with the giant cigar stuck in his mouth. Justin and Paul are the peons that do the shit work of actually talking to people and dragging their asses around town to look at things or retrieve documents.
[note: yes, this is a joke. Josh is a hard working, serious journalist, and smart enough to realize that DC poisons your soul. I’m just making fun of the fact that he actually has “employees” now]
Mac Buckets
How ironic you’d use Howard Dean’s Hate Creed to talk about how crazy the GOP is!
Zifnab
The last politician I heard using a potty mouth was Dear Leader, so don’t run the “Howard Dean’s Hate Creed” line so fast.
Pb
Punchy,
Amusingly enough, Inhofe’s flawed analysis of the situation used *zero* scientists! His recent statements have confirmed that I was right on this thing–Inhofe must be a hoax! America wouldn’t let someone that ignorant become a Senator, right? … Right?
…
:(
Punchy
Good morning, DougJ!
Zifnab
The fact is that middle America doesn’t like seeing the two parties fight. So if Republican dad beats Democratic mom behind closed doors and explains to middle America son that mommy just feel down a flight of stairs cause she’s a flip-floppy stupid little whore, middle America can sleep well at night. But if Democratic mommy decides to confront her abusive husband in front of the kids… no one wants to see one parent trash another in public like that. So middle America says “Mommy, Daddy, please don’t fight” and mommy has to stop for the sake of the kids.
Mac Buckets
Thanks for that non sequiter. I’m sure we all enjoyed whatever it was you were trying to add.
Andrew
I will happily be the part of hate if the other choice is the party of the insanely stupid.
Sen. Brownback was showing pictures of a fucking bald eagle and quoting his children on bird eggs (“By that logic Sen. Brownback is a vagina,” and how) and then showing a kid’s drawing of fucking frowny embryo face as justifaction against stem cell research.
You Republicans are a fucking joke.
Zifnab
Whoa, whoa, slow down there Senator. I was bombarded by all your references and sources and studies backing everything you said up. Who was your primary source of information in your statistics? Um… where did that 75% statistic come from? What journal or offical or scientist did you speak with when you “checked into it”? Which recent research are you refering to that confirms this as a hoax? Just say it back one more time, slowly. I’m sure I just missed it.
Andrew
* justification *
Nutcutter
I think you meant “non sequitur.”
Ancient Purple
Shorter MacBuckets: Your emotion is more important than fact.
Nutcutter
Even shorter Mac: { raspberry }
Steve
It’s fine to accuse the other party of treason and murder. Just don’t say you hate them, that kind of rhetoric is out of bounds.
Mac Buckets
Yeah, bloggers are the same as the Party Chair. Keep telling yourself that.
Zifnab
Bloggers the same as the party chair? Man, I think you might be on to something Mac.
The Other Steve
I’m looking for advice on this rash I have.
The Other Steve
So what’s this I hear about HHS secretary being investigated for tax evasion?
Steve
But YOU are the one who compared a blog commentor to the Party Chair, friend.
If you want to compare apples to apples, yes, elected Republicans call global warming a hoax while Howard Dean says nasty things about Republicans. I guess I have my opinion about which is worse, and you have yours.
Nutcutter
Catch me up. Are on Darrell/Alfalfa Rules right now?
Are we running on a yellow flag?
I thought I saw a righty go into the wall on turn 2.
Mac Buckets
No, I believe that was you:
Mac Buckets
“Says nasty things?” I can’t believe that you gloss so quickly over Dean’s pronouncements that he “hates” 40% of American voters and “everything they stand for.” If you think that having different beliefs on the environment from yours is somehow worse than professing hatred for 40 million people, you are a sick pup.
But yeah, you guys are right. Republicans are the crazy ones. Riiiiight.
Pb
But I can readily believe that you selectively quote him and assume the worst of him. That’s just your hatred getting in the way again…
Zifnab
Was that before or after he emitted the talk radio doctored scream? I can’t remember. Or maybe this was the same speach where he tried to appeal to people with Confederate Flags on the back of their pick-ups, that bigot.
Remember that time when Howard Dean suggested we poison a Supreme Court justice. Oh! Oh! Or the radio address where he suggested we burn the Mexican Flag. And it’s hard not to harken back to when he took millions of dollars in bribes and was ousted from Congress in disgrace.
Dean is such an evil bastard.
Steve
Oh yeah, Dean was obviously not saying he hates the Republican Party, or Republican politicians, obviously he was saying he hates everyone who ever votes Republican. That’s certainly a sensible interpretation.
I still don’t see how Mac can say I was the one who brought Howard Dean into it. Uh, my point was that saying you hate the other party is a lot less significant than accusing the other party of treason and murder, and that’s still my point.
Mac Buckets
Selectively quote? That gets today’s award for Weakest Straw Grasp.
Mac Buckets
“Talk radio doctored?” Dude, it was on TV! You guys are cracking me up today!
jaime
Or when he compared Stem Cell research to Nazi experimentation on the floor of the Senate. Or gays are no better than dogfuckers.
Pb
Mac Buckets,
Yeah, you know, like when you quote a word or two, and then stick in your own interpretation, and then quote a few more words, and then leave out the rest of the context. So if you were wondering if that tactic of yours had a name, that’s what it is. HTH!
tBone
If the Democrats want to stop being accused of treason and murder, they should stop murdering people and committing treason. Simple. Oh, and they should knock off the angry hate-filled rhetoric, too. They’re so mean.
jaime
The sound mix was took the sound directly from the mic. You ever ask yourself why Howard Dean was so much louder than the thousand screaming people in that room?
But Howard Dean screamed so that means he was Wrong about Iraq.
Nutcutter
I’ve made the same one. The Republican base has declared war on its own fellow citizens.
Fine. War it is. Fuck them. I’m an American. Somebody gets in my face and says they are declaring on me, they will get a fight. These assholes think they are morally superior. They want to turn America into a theocracy. They employ emotional and divisive politics. They want to rule, and not govern. When was the last time you saw a bumber sticker that said “Jesus governs!” They can’t govern, that’s an established fact. The whole premise of their schtick is un-American … announcing that some bullshit they call “God’s dominion” takes precedence over man’s law. Oh yeah? Well, the Constitution doesn’t recognize God’s “dominion” and I am not going to be governed by people who want to impose that shit on my country. Even if they are just crass pretenders, like George Bush.
Dean cannot possibly come down hard enough on these lying holier-than-thou cocksuckers and the politicians who curry their favor, for my money.
The fight in the Democratic party right now is between the Liebermans and the Deans. The Liebermans will not win that fight.
You have something much more important to worry about, Mac. You have Mehlman, a guy whose face looks like an anus, and whose rhetoric comes from a giant spin machine that describes shit as shinola. Mehlman is your problem, focus on him. He’s the slimiest turd ever squeezed out of Washington politics and he’s all yours. He’s your hero.
Nutcutter
Neither the people in the room, nor a microphone a few feet away, ever heard him. The only thing that heard him was the tv mike. I doubt that he even heard himself. I’ve been exposed to the roar of a screaming crowd so loud that I actually went to the floor in pain. It felt like somebody was shoving nails into my ears. I heard absolutely nothing. Above a certain decibel level, the ear doesn’t hear anything.
Mac Buckets
Even accepting your generous and non-literal interpretation of Dean’s Hate Creed… hating people whose politics are different to yours is now OK in Dean’s book? What are we going to do about all those hate-crime laws now that we’ve established it’s OK to hate people who are in the Other Party?
Next, please explain away “and everything they stand for.” See, this is the price the Democrats pay for having The Little Ball Of Hate as their Party Chair — all the Dems whines of “the GOP are crazy” (like Punchy’s first post) go sadly begging as long as he’s the head of the entire Democratic Party.
Mac Buckets
That was Dean’s whole statement. If you want to stay in denial, fine, but you’re not fooling anyone.
Nutcutter
Good. I’m behind that statement. 100%. If Americans want to declare me to be their enemy, then so be it … I will be their enemy. Not a problem.
To quote a great president, bring it on. Let’s see what the Rove legacy is a few years from now. I’m more than happy to let that be the deciding factor.
jaime
The Right hates Dean because he doesn’t back down. They can get most others in the party to do so. He would not have taken down that DCCC commercial.
Mac Buckets
I think that’s a frankly nutty statement. We’ve clearly lost the gravity of the word “hate” somewhere in our culture if you think that “hate” is nothing compared to being accused of a crime. It’s enough to make me suspect that your judgment has more to do with who is doing the accusing…
Tim F.
You know, taking an ambiguous statement and making the most negative conceivable interpretation is usually beneath you. Bad day at work?
Mac Buckets
When did Ken Mehlman say that?
jaime
If the “crime” is treason, which is punishable by death, then yes, we hate the people who wish death on us.
Mac Buckets
Tell me how “I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for” is ambiguous. Go on. And what’s the proper interpretation in your view?
Pb
Mac Buckets,
Who do you think you’re kidding? You quoted one word, out of context, and then four other words after that. Here’s what you quoted from Dean, period:
Maureen Dowd’s got nothing on Mac!
ROFL! DougJ, is that you?
John S.
Mac must be having his period.
Try this EZ Mac – the commercials say it will help with what seems to be ailing you.
Tim F.
Should I waste my time? This is a rare case where I think that you know you are misinterpreting in order to piss people off.
But since I’m feeling generous, here goes anyway. Howard Dean once declared that he and the Democratic party should rightfully represent pickup-driving NASCAR fans. That is to say, people who currently vote Republican. Now you want to claim that Dean would turn and around and declare that he hates the same people. Right.
Zifnab
Secretly, though, I’m totally behind you Darre… er… Mac. The Democrats are given too much of a free ride in this country with their hate speech and their fearmongering and their hollow rhetoric. If only they would be more like Lieberman and make out with the President on occation, the world would be a better place.
Mac Buckets
Not all treason is punishable by death, nor have I heard from a Republican official talking about putting anyone to death for treason. Got a link?
John S.
Mehlman speaks out about Dean!
Damned if that isn’t one of the funniest things I’ve read.
Mac Buckets
I guess I understood that everyone on the planet would know the full quote by now. I’ve reprinted it above, as well, so get off your pantomime high horse. I’ve got nothing to hide, obviously.
jaime
Of Course Mac has read and dutifully, purposefully ignored Dean’s follow up to that statement.
“I don’t hate Republicans as individuals. But I hate what the Republicans are doing to this country. I really do.”
Steve
I really don’t see how you can even seriously entertain the idea that Howard Dean proclaimed his hatred for every registered member of the Republican Party. My “generous and non-literal interpretation”? I can’t really have a discussion with you on these days when you talk like you’re from Mars.
Again, we’re back in the place where it’s ok to accuse people of treason and murder because their politics are different from yours, but gee, you mustn’t HATE. It’s silly.
Small government versus big government is a difference in politics. The differences between the extremists who currently run the Republican Party and the rest of us out here in normal-land, I really don’t think they come down to a mere “difference in politics.” The kind of people who take a bipartisan national spirit after 9/11 and decide “hey, we can manufacture partisan issues out of this and win more elections!” well yes, I hate that mentality and I hate what it does to the country. I hate that they exploit people’s religious beliefs to manipulate them for political gain (“we want to bring out the wackos to vote against something”).
I also hate the current incarnation of the Republican Party but I’ve often said that I look forward to the day when I can vote Republican again. I don’t see an inconsistency there.
Mac Buckets
That’s not an interpretation, Tim. That’s a supposition, and an extremely naive one at that (“Politicians would never court the vote of someone they hate!” Wow.).
Try again for a real interpretation of Dean’s statement.
Perry Como
Mmmmm. Rhetorical tricks. The punishment for treason during a time of war is death. So when Rep. Peter King says someone has commited treason, it’s easy to see where he’s going with it.
rs
the Little Ball of Hate is the Democratic Party Chair?Isn’t Pat Verbeek Canadian?Get some original material.
Pb
Mac Buckets,
Which is obviously why you felt the need to distort and editorialize instead of quoting it all and providing some context, I see.
Then start acting like it.
capelza
Mac?
Perry Como
Read John Dean’s new book. It is very, very good. I had always wondered what happened to a party I used to respect, and Dean does a good job of showing how and why the GOP has been taken over by extremists. When you have modern conservatives ignoring and deriding people like Buckley and Will, you know the train has jumped the tracks.
jaime
“Again, we’re back in the place where it’s ok to accuse people of treason and murder”
See, this is where Mac is getting into “definition of is” territory. To prove that republicans accuse democrats of treason, you have to provide a link to a high level Republican party official specifically saying “I think Democrats are treasonous and should be excecuted”. Never mind what the shining lights of conservative thought like Anne Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, et al say on National Media or their scumbag followers on RedState or Freerepublic who explicitly cream for the execution of liberals.
chopper
well, mac came and queered the thread. as jaime shows, the quote meant something else. but it’s a drive-by thread-jack, so i doubt he’ll be back.
mac and darrell are tag-teaming these days.
Tim F.
So you follow up your nastiest-imaginable-interpretation gambit with an ad hominem. Talk about boosting your credibility.
To me the amazing thing is that you refuse to accept that other interpretations are even possible. Like perhaps he was describing the Republican leadership that controls the party apparatus with an iron fist. Nope, impossible, and you’ve got the ad hominems to prove it.
Pb
Tim F.,
That would be a very likely interpretation, given the *context* of Dean’s remarks–which Mac left out entirely. Much like how he left out Dean’s later clarification.
jaime
Mac is unavailable for comment as he furiously googling right now.
Steve
Here’s a classic example of what I’m talking about.
Doesn’t it steam you up a little bit, friends, or has it gone so far that you’re desensitized to it? The first time a Democrat says boo about the way the war on terror is going – and we’re talking a complete milquetoast like Tom Daschle here – and the Republicans instantly fire back with the rhetoric of treason. “Aid and comfort to our enemies”? You’re really shocked, Mac, that some people don’t want to sit there and hear that bullshit?
Oh, but the question of whether Democrats provide “aid and comfort to our enemies,” that’s a topic reasonable people can debate, right? It’s just a “political difference,” surely nothing to get hateful over. Saying that you hate people who levy accusations of treason like this, gee, that’s just so out of bounds.
In a reasonable society, casual accusations of treason and murder would be left to the people waving signs and passing out pamphlets on the street corner. But the sign-wavers somehow got into office. This week the President’s spokesman said that embryonic stem cell research is “murder,” and did anyone even blink? This is the state of our political dialogue.
Howard Dean certainly doesn’t help dial down the temperature with the way he talks, but if you think all it takes is for the Howard Deans of the world to calm down and everything will be nice and normal again, just ask Tom Daschle what they said about him. Things won’t be normal again until the extremists are relegated to the sidelines, and if someone says along the way that they hate the extremists, gosh, my heart bleeds.
DougJ
Great post, Tim F.
Do we really need to around telling John we hate his party? He hates it too.
jaime
But Mac will say, “Lott never said treason punishable by death”
jg
John doesn’t hate the GOP, just the guys in charge right now. Same here.
Zifnab
Speaking of Tom Daschle, what has he been up to in the Senate lately? Oh, that’s right, he got voted out of office.
It seems there are only two roads for a milquetoast candidate these days. Lock-step and lock-lipped support of our President-King or getting kicked to the curb for being too liberal in a red nation-state.
With all his fiery rhetoric, I still saw Dean getting elected Governor. And I saw grassroots support behind him like I never saw behind Kerry. Shame that made him unelectable.
Perry Como
That’s because he’s a Far Left Liberal(TM). Just look at that liberal nirvana, Vermont.
Mac Buckets
Disingenuity is not an argument, is it? If he’d have said, “I hate the gays and everything they stand for!” would we be wondering what gays he meant? Of course not, we’d be saying obviously he hates all gays. Remember, this is the idiot who also said, in every-so-nuanced fashion, “this is a struggle between good and evil, and we are the good.”
And don’t forget “and everything they stand for!” You don’t think that the rank and file generally “stand for” most of the same things their leaders do?
You’re making a mistake. Dean was the only guy who said he hated people whose politics were different that his. The few Republican officials who have mentioned treason (and I don’t think any of you guys have even named any of these accusers) did so because of acts that they deem to be treasonous (“aid and comfort,” revealing state secrets, and the like). It’s never “They should lock up all Democrats as traitors because they believe in liberal domestic policies.” See the difference?
The rest of what you mention (using events like war and religion — I would add race — to get votes) is just politics since the dawn of time, done by every party in every country. It doesn’t fit the ideals of democracy, but we have to deal with reality, or we’ll all just stay at home on election day.
As much as I disagree with him, I’d have accepted this statement had Dean made it. If you “hate” the current status of a political party, fine. If you “hate” an ideology, great.
But when you, as an official of one of the two major parties, start openly professing “hate” for fellow Americans (even just the politicians) “and everything they stand for,” though, just because they don’t think exactly the same way you do about poltiics, then you’ve crossed the batshit crazy line to me…
…or you’re just a worthless, rabble-rousing waste of carbon who will spread and validate hate for your countrymen to further your own career.
Hey!
DougJ
Mac, you’re going to look back on this period of your political life and want to cry in a few years. I mean that as compliment.
John S.
What made Dean “unelectable” was the 24-hour news cycle running the clip of his enthusiastic “scream” over and over while commentators chuckled and mused how “un-Presidential” such behavior was.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, our Dear Leader curses in front of some foreign heads of state while trying to grope others. Yet somehow, these gaffes aren’t seen as un-Presidential.
John S.
I love EZ Mac’s little qualifier of “officials”.
Because as we all know, the Republican “officials” never say anything too controversial in public. They prefer to let their horde of pundits clog the airwaves with their fire-breathing rhetoric while the officials sit back and say nothing about it, quietly giving it their nod of approval.
Mac Buckets
Of course, he tried to back off months later when he got called on it. What else could he do? It doesn’t erase what he said, and I have no doubts that he meant what he said of his own volition, rather than what he was forced to say when confronted with his earlier nutty comments.
Mac Buckets
Nice unsupported accusation, by the way. Yeah, you quote pundits and bloggers and I’ll quote the Leader of the Democratic Party.
Because they’re the same, you know.
Steve
Nope, sorry, you’re in pearl-clutching territory here. There’s no functional difference between what Dean said and what I said, and again, you’re completely clowning when you pretend a statement like “I hate everything they stand for!” should be taken hyperliterally rather than as hyperbole.
Yeah, if your dad said at the dinner table “I really hate the Democrats” you’d be like “wow, my dad is batshit insane, thank god he’s not in a position of any political power in this country!” Sure you would. Like I said, total pearl-clutching, pretending like “hate” is the worst thing any human being ever said in reference to anyone else, while accusations of treason are just a political dispute.
John S.
Republican officials do, of course, make their message clear:
“Democrats undermine our troops in Iraq from the security of their Washington, D.C., offices.” — Rep. Roy Blunt (R-MO)
It should not be a surprise that the same man [Feingold] who wanted to censure the President for working to protect Americans, now thinks it is wise to tip our hand to the terrorists.” — Tracey Schmitt, RNC Press Secretary
“I think it’s wrong to call our troops terrorists, which is what Senator Kerry said last week. He compared them to terrorists on Face the Nation.” — Ken Mehlman, RNC Chairman
No talk of treason here. None whatsoever.
Mac Buckets
There was absolutely nothing ad hominem about that comment, Tim. I said your comment was a naive reach and I showed why. Come on, I expect better.
So why would Dean “hate” the Republican Party leadership? What had Ken Mehlman or Marc Racicot done to him that would justify “hate?” They dare to oppose him? They think differently than Dean does? If you’re going to excuse Dean for hating certain people, you have to tell me what kind of hate is OK with you.
Dean has a mouth — is he so incoherent that he couldn’t have said “Republican Party Leadership” if he’d wanted to? But given his “this is a struggle between good and evil, and we’re the good” rhetoric, I think it’s a lot easier to believe than Dean hates Republicans because he thinks they are evil.
Nutcutter
Ooookay, Mac. You got your troll on, it was funny for a while. But we sorta wore out the joke now.
Why would people “hate” the GOP?
Have you been reading the paper lately? You see my point, I’m sure.
People hate the GOP for the same reason they hate West Nile Disease, or high gas prices.
Perry Como
Political Graffiti
It looks like the GOP is doing great things for America in this session of Congress.
Nutcutter
I don’t know about him, but I think they’re evil. I think Karl Rove is evil. No doubt about it. Take it to the bank.
I think the American experiment is under direct threat from these assholes.
You just figuring this out?
Pb
Mac Buckets,
I guess not. Stop replying, everyone, Mac isn’t making an argument after all!
Mac Buckets
Of course, there is. It’s the difference between saying “I hate socialism” and saying “I hate the Spanish” or “I hate Zapatero.”
Now the Chairman of the Democratic Party is held to the same standard as my dad at the dinner table. Eeeeeeeeexcellent. I bet Bush wishes he had apologists like this for his speeches! (“If my dad had a sign that said Mission Accomplished at the dinner table…”)
But, to answer your question, yes. If my dad said the Democrats were evil and he hated them, he would not be fit to hold office. And if Ken Mehlman had said “I hate the Democrats and everything they stand for,” he’d be long gone and we’d still hear about it every ten minutes from the Democrats and the media.
Who’s pretending? I can’t believe a thinking person can try to make a case that accusing someone of a crime (because of their actions) is more drastic than “hating” them (because of their beliefs). That’s lunacy.
Perry Como
I think the Republican party has become an authoritarian apparatus. Does that mean all Republicans are authoritarians? Not at all. But the Republican party — through its rhetoric and tactics — is an extremist, authoritarian organization.
Look and how Republicans identify anything that doesn’t toe the GOP line as liberal (and therefore evil). It’s a divisive tactic meant to provide a “them” that is the “cause of society’s ills”.
Politics should be about comity; where people with differing points of view can sit down and come to an agreement (like Iraq! hahahaha). Now that the GOP is run by extremists, specfically extremists that think they are doing the work of God, no compromise can occur. If you truly believe are doing God’s work, compromise is unacceptable.
And that way lies authoritarianism.
Mac Buckets
Why would that be, Doug? I think it’s a riot.
Mac Buckets
Riiiiiight, John, it’s all a shadowy network of whatever under the nefarious control of the whoosits. But Dean has his “horde of pundits” clogging the airwaves and intertrons, too — what’s his excuse for the hate-speech?
Tim F.
So now you have graduated from declaring that one possible interpretation exists to defending your chosen interpretation with an appeal to incredulity. I suppose we can call that progress.
Mac Buckets
And on what planet would this be? I mean, it’s clearly not on the planet that has immigration, high government spending, port deals, etc. as issues.
But please, rant on about this famous “party line” (could any rhetoric be more stale than this?) and how Republicans think themselves and all liberals are all “evil” (nice documentation there, by the way!).
John S.
You’re going to pretend that the Republican party doesn’t orchestrate its message? And that somehow all the airtime that Coulter, Barnes, Kristol, and countless others receive to dutifully spout RNC talking points doesn’t actually happen?
I’m not going to sit here and waste my time proving that the sky is blue. Open your fucking eyes and look at it. Or don’t. Whatever floats your boat.
And we both know that the Democrats do NOT have anything that even remotely resembles an orchestrated message. Certainly not any that emanates from Dean. As for your pearl-clutching over what you call “hate speech”, what’s your party’s excuse for their actual hate speech? You know little things like calling for Supreme Court Justices to be hanged or for NY Times reporters to be executed?
You’re a joke, man. A cheap parody of a parody.
Mac Buckets
That’s a pretty fine dodge, Tim. Can I call it an ad hominem?
Perry Como
You disagree that “liberal” is used as a pejorative these days? I don’t feel like digging through the comments on this board.
jg
Mac are you seriously saying that the right doesn’t blame every problem they encounter on liberals?
Nutcutter
Yes, as a righty, he ain’t much, but he’s all we’ve got.
Tim F.
If you want to talk about naive, let’s look at the way you think Dean’s mind operates. According to you a national politician with decades of experience makes it plain that he will play for a subset of the electorate and then declares publicly that he hates them. If you think that is plausible behavior for somebody at Dean’s level then we should honestly stop kidding ourselves about the naive person here.
Tim F.
You made an appeal to incredulity. I could call it a rose and it would still render your argument moot.
jaime
Is Peter King “an official”?
Mac:
Of course it all depends on what “actions” are? Is it simply being a reporter for the enemy media du juor? Or if their belief is that the governments actions may or may not be above board. Peter King would not want his buddies on the WSJ prosecuted for treason for reporting the same story. Or reporting the same type of news when a Democrat is president.
Mac Buckets
Well, they’re no Townhouse, I can assure you.
As naive as newborn kittens… I just can’t be mad at you!
“My party?” Get real. Those are idiots on blogs. Just like the idiots on the blogs who are rooting for Bush to be assassinated when he goes to Iraq (“Your party?”). Just like the idiots on blogs who are happy when soldiers and their families get killed.
They aren’t the Chairman of the Democratic Party.
Perry Como
Well, it is the liberal media, and especially the liberal NY Times, with all of its liberal reporters.
Pb
John S.,
And that’s the least of it. Don’t forget the think tanks, the foundations that fund the think tanks, the backers who fund the foundations, the money trails, the contributors, the industry lobbyists, the policy kickbacks to the contributors, lobbyists, and backers, etc., etc., etc. Mac Buckets, in his sarcasm, had it right to begin with for once, although–as usual–he was a little short on the details.
Zifnab
I think the Republican party just functions better as a minority party. When they’re not in control they serve as a reasonable conscience and a good second-guessing mechanism. Rationalism before idealism. The problem is when you let Republican Idealism run the show. And the problem is that I’m not even sure if Republicans fully grasp what Republican Idealism is. They call Democrats a mish-mosh of beliefs and ideaologies, but seriously take a look at the Republican Big Tent. Big Business, Religion, Nativism, and Fiscal Conservatism. How do any of those four mesh? That, I think, is why you get such half-assed public policy. You’ve got a bunch of factions that can agree on very, very few things. Corporate wants its free business and cheap labor. Religion wants church-state regulated copulating. Nativism wants a country of WASPs poised to bomb any country that looks at us funny. And the Fiscals want us to do this on a zero dollar budget. So when someone suggests, “Lets not burn the American Flag”, at least its something they can all get behind.
Pb
Zifnab,
Maybe they were at one point, but I think even that stopped at some point in the past decade or two, minority or not.
Perry Como
It’s even more complex than that. You get the Libertarians who disagree with putting a flag burning amendment in the Constitution. And you have the Neoconservatives (Trotskyites) that believe the US should be the world’s policeman and should reform all countries in to democracies by the point of a bayonette. The Neocons could care less about fiscal restraint. Someone else can pay it off after the world is filled with flowers and candy. Then you have Paleocons that don’t believe in foreign adventurism but like protectionism. Versus the Austriocons that think free trade and open markets solve all problems.
It’s very difficult to define conservatism because of the number of factions. But it’s easy to see which way the GOP has been heading. Increased government spending, increased government power, less government oversight, decreased government accountability, increased intrusion into the lives of citizens; it’s authoritarian.
John S.
No, Mac. Those are idiots on television. I like how you want to write off all the Coulter, Medved, Bennett, [insert any conservative pundit here] types as “idiots on blogs” as if they add absolutely nothing to the national discourse with their exposure to millions of Americans.
Who said that who has a reach into millions of homes by being broadcast on cable news or nationally syndicated?
Again, what liberal pundit with national exposure said such a thing?
You’re as fucking dishonest as the day is long.
Steve
You seriously don’t understand that some people hate the Republicans for their actions. Yes, it’s just an irrational hatred of the small-government ideology, seriously, that’s what’s gotten into everyone.
My favorite part of this thread was where Mac challenged anyone to name an actual Republican official who accused Democrats of treason, I showed him exactly what we are all talking about, and he went right back to claiming that no one talks treason on the Republican side except for blog commentors and such. It’s right out of the Darrell argument book where you ignore what you want to ignore and just nit-pick the easy arguments.
But remember, it’s no big deal to say Democrats are treasonous, or murderers, because it’s only “accusing someone of a crime based on their actions,” which happens every day. What an amazing ability to play word games Mac is demonstrating today.
jaime
But he’s dishonest for Jesus…or America…or Freedom. Isn’t all the same thing now?
Mac Buckets
First of all, Tim, Dean’s a “national politician with decades of experience” only in the sense that he was a failed candidate (lasting only a month into the primaries and deemed “unelectable” by many in his own party) for the nomination of a losing party in 2004. A party that couldn’t even beat George Freaking Bush. He’s only been a successful politician in Vermont, so you may be giving him more props for his political chops than he deserves.
I mean, do we have to go over the pre- and post-scream embarrassments of his campaign to suggest that he’s not exactly a secure cannon?
All you Dems know that Bush doesn’t care about black people, right? I mean, he wanted them all to die after Katrina! Couldn’t have cared less — just ask Kanye or even Dean himself (who said when asked about the racial aspects of the Katrina aftermath “I do not think that this president cares about everybody in America.”)!
But there he was at the NAACP this week, courting votes. How could this be? That’s not “plausible behavior!” Politicians only want the votes of people they like!
Anyway, you still haven’t answered this, Tim (I’ll give you another chance to dodge):
John S.
More dishonest bullshit from EZ Mac. Of course, he has conveniently forgotten this and this.
Because orchestrated talking point campaigns by the RNC and by Senatorial staff rise to the same level of collusion as a group of bloggers on an email list…
Of course, on the other hand Mac wants us all to know that it is dishonest to compare the actions of National party figures with unelected officials like bloggers – unless doing so proves his point.
Pb
Funniest thing I’ve read all day…
Steve
This would be an awesome analogy if Bush had said something like “I don’t care about black people.” Since he didn’t say that, it actually sucks a lot.
Perry Como
That’s because poor people aren’t Bush’s base.
jaime
He wanted to learn guitar chords during Katrina.
He wanted to eat cake during Katrina.
He gave less attention to the thousands of dying blacks than the politically opportune dead body of Terry Schiavo. He could give fundraiser speeches, and rock out with country stars, and blow out Birthday cards while a thousand drowned. But one white woman with a “right to life” stake planted in her by asshole crazy base (yes, send your childer to be arrested for potentially drowning her with a bottle of Arrowhead) necessitates cutting the vacation short.
Based on his actions, George Bush doesn’t care about black people.
Mac Buckets
Of course, I understand that it happens (hello, I read BJ!), but I will never condone the hatred of fellow Americans who happen not to think or act exactly the same way you do politically. It’s base, it’s vulgar, and it shows a lack of intellectual control, whether it comes from the right or the left.
Well, my favorite part of this thread is when you said that I claimed no one talks treason except for blog commenters, because that’s such a lie that you have no hope of substantiating it! I accept your apology in advance. Now stop making stuff up — that’s weak.
Regarding your post, it was a link to an opinion piece on a blog and all the links to the actual news items were broken (so thanks for wasting my time with that). Without the links, I can’t say whether that story is accurate or spun beyond all hope. I don’t know what Daschle said, or what exactly the Republicans were referring to.
And Rep. Thomas Davis (who 99.999% of Americans couldn’t pick out of a lineup consisting of Yao Ming, Urkel, and the lady from the Snapple commercials) is your big GOP “treason-talker” (even though he never said “treason,” I’ll still give it to you on “aid and abet”)? He’s your flip-side of the Chairman of the Democratic Party saying he hates Republicans? He’s your “gotcha??” Seriously?
OK. Whatever. Let’s assume that your blog piece is accurate, and Daschle made some mild comments about the future of the war being uncertain, and this guy Davis said Tom was “aiding and abetting” the enemy.
Here starteth the lesson, Dems.
THOMAS DAVIS SHOULD SHUT HIS MORONIC WORD HOLE AND STOP ACCUSING PEOPLE OF TREASON FOR HAVING ABOUT QUESTIONS ABOUT FUTURE SUCCESS IN IRAQ.
See how easy it is? It didn’t hurt at all! When someone who supports the Iraq War clearly talks out of his ass, I call him on it. As opposed to you guys, who for some reason seem so invested in Howard Dean (not an enviable position, I think) that you are unable admit when he’s talking like a retard.
Update: Number of lefties on this site who have even mildly criticized Howard Dean for saying “I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for”: Zero. Seems like the Party of Hate moniker might be a badge of honor to you lot. Congratulations.
John S.
Irony, thy name is EZ Mac.
Whereas someone who doesn’t support the war gets held to a different standard? Interesting. Say, how about that insignificant GOP official Roy Blount:
Or the insignificant Press Secretary for the RNC:
I see you conveniently missed these quotes posted earlier in favor of railing how NOBODY COULD COME UP WITH A PROMINENT ENOUGH GOP OFFICIAL!
The blind man will teach us how to see.
Update: I intensely dislike people who lie, present patently false arguments, are willfilly obtuse and are so arrogant that they think they shit roses. When said people are Republicans, I dislike them even more intently because I think they have destroyed this country. This doesn’t mean I want them shot, gassed, hanged or sent into exile which runs contrary to the prevailing Republican view of liberals.
Nutcutter
So, is that the end of your latest tedious, convoluted version of your endless fucking troll here?
Or do we have to endure a second chapter now this evening?
Just wondering if I should check what’s on tv, or stay here and see what you will do next.
Perry Como
Rep. King was mentioned up thread (I can pick him out of a line up, but he’s from NY) and another that I recall is the Rep. that accused Bill Maher of treason (had to Google his name, Rep. Bachus, AL 6th). Then we have Rove saying that liberals (there’s that word again) want to offer therapy and understanding to the 9/11 terrorists (aid and comfort?). Sen. Allard accused Sen. Feingold of “siding with the terrorists”.
Shall I go on?
Perry Como
I will go on:
Any of those good enough for you Mac? Any high ranking GOP officials there?
DarrellTron 3000
You can continue [dirty liberal], but as the [wise] and [honest] [conservative] [MacBuckets] already pointed out, you [leftist kooks] can’t name a single prominent Republican that is as [despicable] and [hatemongering] as Howard Dean.
You [communists] cannot contend with the simple fact that I am [right] and you are [wrong].
[End Transmission.]
DarrellTron 3000
None of those [benevolent] and [noble] [Republicans] actually used the word [treason]. Why do you persist in your [lies], [foolish] [lefty]?
[End Transmission.]
Nutcutter
Okay, now for something really important:
Where is Birdzilla?
Steve
No, he’s not my “gotcha.” He’s a representative example of something that is 100% par for the course. Would you like me to do a search on “aid and comfort” in the Congressional Record?
We weren’t in Iraq in 2002. Part of my point is how early and easily these accusations of treason started flying.
Really, I think we should have seen it coming after the insane hatred the Republicans directed at Clinton in the 90s. But after 9/11, the Democrats did the right thing, they tried to work together on a common national agenda and support the President, and they got kicked in the teeth by a bunch of extremists who had zero interest in sharing power.
And Howard Dean, for resenting all this, he’s the hater? HE is your “gotcha”?
You want to claim the people who fight back are the real haters, carry on with your delusion. For my part, I love my country too much not to hate what these Republicans have done to it.
Nutcutter
Hear, hear.
jg
1 dem says he hates republicans, 10’s of republicans use words like traitor to describe anyone who speaks out but since none of the repubs are the equal in national recognition of the dem, all that matters is what the dem says.
This is how the right wins elections.
mrmobi
MacNutjob:
Let me be the first of the lefties here to accept, with gratitude, the award of the “Party of Hate.”
I’m more pissed off than I can remember, and feeling pretty helpless to do anything other than rant. These neocon pricks may represent the “end times” for our democracy. They include a number of bona fide nutcases, and more than a few who think that laws are optional, especially the chimp-in-chief.
So, yes, I hate Republicans (or at least Neocons), although I’m frightened that I find myself agreeing with Pat Buchanan more lately. John Dean is a principled conservative, we need more of them. At this point, I’d vote for a candidate who didn’t do anything BUT scream, as long as he or she supports the idea that the U.S. is NOT the world’s policeman.
However, Mac, I’d like to award your glorious party the moniker of “The Party of Death.” Has a nice ring to it and it’s true. The ruling party has caused far more death and destruction than would have happened if we had just left Saddam alone and monitored him. At the same time, we have managed to destabilize the entire region. All this while turning a surplus into a crippling deficit. Magical!
What was the goal of invading Iraq again? Was it to ensure that Iran would be dominant in the region? Oh, I guess not.
The response to Katrina was brilliant, too. I just loved seeing those dead bodies floating in the water. It was like having Central America here at home. Your guys have FUCKED every single thing they have touched, and you want us to be NICER! Not gonna do it! Wouldn’t be prudent!
If it upsets you, take it up with Karl Rove, Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh.
DougJ
My sister is building an actual DarrellTron3000. It has a better name, though. So good I can’t tell you.
chriskoz
Is it… “The Dissembler3000”? (Or WinDissembler for the PC version)
Nutcutter
I think it might be the Decider3000, but written in Dissembler.
Perry Como
Is that anything like Brainfuck?
Tim F.
Excellent, a reply.
Let’s lay out the logic here so that you don’t wander any further into your own rhetoric. You have acknowledged that there are not one but two interpretations of Dean’s comment. Good work, not all rightwingers will go that far. So by pissing on Dean’s general character you mean to say that he could have declared a hate for Republican voters. That doesn’t rule out the alternative, which is that Dean meant Republican leaders, but it keeps your dog alive. For that reason I don’t see much to gain in talking more about Dean’s character since that is pretty much your last trench. Defend at all costs.
Composition fallacy. Let me illustrate: Republicans wanted to nuke Fallujah. Obviously Republicans are emotional infants who wouldn’t know real-world considerations if they bit them ass, right? Let me know if you still don’t understand. Next:
The racial element of that statement is…where? Be a chum and point it out for me.
Begging the question. That’s an especially embarrassing fallacy since it interprets precisely the reverse of what my last post said. It isn’t smart to misinterpret somebody in the midddle of arguing that you didn’t misinterpret somebody.
Sure I did. You acknowledged that a second interpretation could exist, which I consider progress, and then dismissed it with an appeal to incredulity fallacy. Give me a non-fallacious argument and I promise to take it seriously.
Tell you what, think about whether the two guys who you named are really the most powerful Republicans in the country. If I asked two thousand people that question I strongly doubt that ten would come up with Ed Gillespie. So why name them? I’m sure that you are smart enough to name the four or five top GOP movers without help.
jg
I agree. I don’t think he cares about me. I don’t think he cares about anyone but his base. I have no reason to think otherwise.
DougJ
Okay, I’ll tell you. It’s called Condoliza. Get it?
Perry Como
Boooooo.
Nutcutter
Is that a math joke?
Krista
I think you should call it Condzilla instead. You can make it 50 feet tall, and it can then fight the War on Terror(c) all by itself.
demimondian
Tell me, DOugJ, does it spell with a Lisp?
tBone
Don’t you mean lithp?
I like Condoliza. Sir Lizalot would be good too.
demimondian
No: lisp stands for “Long Irritating Strings of Parentheses”, which is the best description of the language’s syntax I’ve ever read. (Ob. Disc: it originally stood for “LISt Processor”, but I think the modern interpretation is more accurate.)
Pb
Heh, that’s great. And folks, it’s ‘liza’ as in ‘eliza’.
tBone
A computerized Darrell dispensing psychoanalysis . . . I think I’d rather deal with Skynet or HAL.
Nutcutter
Trivia question, without looking it up, please: Who was the voice of SAL 9000 in the sequel to 2001?
Without looking it up.
DougJ
I’m serious about that Condoliza thing. It should be done soon.
tBone
You’ve managed to hit on one of the rare pieces of pop sci-fi trivia that I don’t have readily at hand.
So who is it?
Andrew
More importantly, Orson Welles himself was the voice of Unicron in Transformers: The Movie. Murphy Brown wouldn’t stand a chance.
demimondian
You know, I find that thought more troubling than I do the DerRuhlTron3000, or even Condoliza (a theraputic program which specializes in treating people in converted apartments, perhaps)?
Nutcutter
Andrew knows, it’s Candice Bergen (credited as Olga Mallsnerd, a name I think from Edgar Bergen’s act. I think he called her that when she was a kid).
tBone
You’d be amazed at all of the completely worthless shit I know, demi.
Or, given the average level of my contributions here, maybe not.
Psyberian
Excellent post Tim. This is a potentially dangerous form of mental masturbation by our friends on the right. If the media says something good about a democrat or bad about a republican, then they can always conveniently fall back on the “media bias” excuse. On the other hand, if anything good is said about republicans or bad about democrats, then they feel vindicated – media bias is not even considered in that case…
Needless to say, this perpetuates extremism. And where does it end?
Krista
tbone – I can relate. I’ve forgotten most of what I learned in school, but have a ridiculous amount of pop culture and pointless trivia stored up here. (Like the fact that “facetiously” is the shortest word in the English language that uses all of the vowels including “y” in order.)
tBone
Someday, Krista, that knowledge may mean the difference between life and death. Use it wisely.
RSA
Jeez, the one time a topic comes up when I have some expertise (Lisp and historical AI programs written in Lisp) and I wasn’t paying attention.
DougJ
That’s why the New York Times never should have published that fact. The White House asked them to hold the story back.
Frankly, you two aren’t helping much by discussing it in this blog. Just as terrorists are prone to forget that the U.S. may be monitoring their calls, they are also notoriously forgetful of arcane facts about the English language. Thanks for reminding them, guys.
RSA
But Krista was careful not to mention “arseniously”, which has the same number of letters as “facetiously”, has alphabetical precedence over the latter, and is further derived from the technical term “arsenide”, which could conceivably describe components of a weapon of mass destruction. See? No harm done–oops.
Krista
RSA – Funny, neither Oxford nor Merriam-Webster had an entry for “arseniously.” Are you making up words?
Why do you hate America?
RSA
But all the left-wing blog sites are talking about “arseniously” (at least, Google finds 23 pages that mention it, and I thereby “generalize” to all of the Web). Okay, although I’ll never admit that it’s not a word, I’ll never use it either.