Rick Santorum, like the folks at Scrutator before they outed themselves as spoofs, often does and says the embarrassing stuff that most rightwingers are smart enough to keep to themselves. Take the popular tactic of smearing the scapegoat du jour as traitors who should be hung by the neck until dead, dead, dead. Most Republicans, Bush and Cheney and Ken Mehlman and Karl Rove for example, play coy games with the term ‘aid and comfort’ as if it just popped into their head out of nowhere. Gosh, offering ‘aid and comfort’ to the enemy doesn’t mean anything specific right? It does? And the punishment is what? Oops, my bad.
Santorum, bless his darkened soul, serves it up straight:
PHILADELPHIA – The disruption of an alleged terrorist plot to blow up airliners shows the importance of intelligence-gathering and the need to pursue the “traitors” who recently leaked information about classified government programs, U.S. Sen. Rick Santorum said Friday.
[…] News organizations, he said, should take a “much more responsible approach” in dealing with such leaks.
“If leaking this information is traitorous, then publishing it is also complicit with that activity,” Santorum said.
Santorum acknowledged that he did not know whether techniques such as the warrantless surveillance program were involved in heading off the alleged terrorist plan to smuggle explosive components onto passenger airliners.
Dean Esmay and Michael Reagan must be so proud. Pay special attention to that last part – Santorum makes an awfully convenient argument from ignorance when we already know that in fact the British authorities wrapped up this program entirely within the letter of the law, warrants and all. Our PA readers probably owe it to the confused Senator to phone his office and let him know that. I’m sure that Senator hang-’em-high will be relieved to hear it.
SusanG has more. God willing Santorum will lose his race and fade into obscurity before his violent scapegoating inspires some less-than-hinged follower to do more than shout at the radio.
ThymeZone
I wish we could more of the good things about squandering the goodwill and unity of America in return for a few votes.
ThymeZone
“hear more”
srv
I guess Dean is picking up the reins from Scrutator. As time goes by, the more and more I think he and TallDave are spoofs. If not, it’s time we take these people out and hang them. They a rabid scourge on humanity.
I don’t think the DSM-IV is big enough for pop-conservatism.
paul
Philosophically speaking, why isn’t this true:
“If leaking this information is traitorous, then publishing it is also complicit with that activity.”
Ancient Purple
Which philosophical paradigm are you suggesting?
Certainly Jefferson and the other Founding Fathers felt that once anything hit the open marketplace, the press was free to report it.
Otherwise, they would have added lauguage to the First Amendment that allowed prior restraint vis-a-vis national security.
paul
I’m not thinking of a paradigm –maybe what I mean by ‘philosophical’– just looking at the statement. It seems like a correct statement.
srv
If the administrations interpretation of FISA et al is prefectly reasonable and the status quo (see Darrell), how is publishing that a leak?
I guess it depends on what the ‘philosophical’ defintion of is is re a leak.
And how is leaking to a non-enemy an overt act of treason? The leakers didn’t call up Osama and tell him. Who has ever been convicted for treason for leaking to a non-enemy?
So leaking isn’t inherently treason. It depends on who and when you leak to. Jonathan Pollard wasn’t convicted for treason. You could argue someone publishing information during war is, but not the leaker in this case.
srv
And talking of treason – Cindy Sheehan is in the hospital!
Where the hell is John Cole, and why isn’t he podcasting from hospital about this? A major Shee-rection and he is just AWOL…
Tim F.
Since when does leaking to the press amount to treason? Paul is engaging in circular reasoning.
US Patriot
But don’t we already accept prior restraint in certain situations, such as when someone wants to publish detailed information on the construction of nuclear weapons?
And how is this situation substantively different? After all, terrorists are trying to kill us. They constitute a distinct, ongoing national security threat. As such, why is prior restraint on the publishing of security countermeasures off the table as a rational idea?
Speaking as a neutral and detached observer, I can’t avoid observing that in far too many leftist circles, the Constitution is, indeed, a suicide pact.
ThymeZone
Paul is missing the point. Missing a point so large that it would flatten any reasonable person.
We are not debating whether Santorum’s statement scans as acceptable rhetorical English. We’re talking about whether Santorum is abusing rhetoric in order to practice destructive politics.
He is, and he is. That’s the point.
Eural
Then you’re more than welcome to drop your membership – love it or leave it, baby, love it or leave it….
Here’s another question to throw out on the topic. If, as this administration repeatedly claims, there are so many news organizations out there aiding and abetting “the enemy” then why are they not either 1) filing in Federal courts for injunctions to prohibit the publishing of this information or 2) prosecuting the publishers for treason? If we are at war and we are truly being harmed by their acts then a couple of treason trials with formal executions would be necessary to protect the greater good, no? This is a war of civilizations against an enemy more dangerous than Nazi Germany or the USSR (according to some) – not prosecuting these cases is doing more harm to the American public.
US Patriot
I thought that was what this was all about.
DougJ
Don’t worry, Santorum will out himself too before the election. Call it an “October surprise”.
What’s Casey going to do when he finds out Santorum is a liberal who has just been making fun of conservatives all these years? It’s very Rovian when you think about it.
ThymeZone
It sounds more Dougian than Rovian, though.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Rovian
FBI leaks anyway, immediately, so why bother the MSM?
US Patriot
I’m not a member of the left.
That’s an interesting point. Possibly, the Bush Administration is engaging in these tactics for purely political reasons. But it is also possible that they are trying to keep the prosecutions as narrow as possible, or that they are trying to limit criminal liability to those most directly responsible. For now, at least.
But only time will tell what is really going on here. For the time being, we can only wait and see. If our reasoning faculties are blurred by the passions and pettiness of partisanship, we can of course choose to speculate and besmirch the motives of others. I see far too much of that coming from both sides of the aisle.
US Patriot
I find this highly unlikely.
He’d undoubtedly use the opportunity to portray Santorum as a liar who has deceived his own wife for decades, and cannot be trusted by the voters of Pennsylvania. But then, Casey doesn’t strike me as a man with the high standards of integrity his father possessed. He’d allow partisanship and the lust for self-advancement overcome his ideological camaraderie with a recently self-outed homosexual liberal who happened to be a high-ranking member of the Republican Party.
US Patriot
I’ve heard speculation in conservative circles that this is what Bush has been up to all this time.
It fuels and justifies their ongoing and somewhat ridiculous assertions that Bush is, in fact, a liberal. Personally, I find this hard to believe. Then again, who knows?
ThymeZone
Personally?
Why not “Longitudinally?”
US Patriot
Because that makes no sense.
I’m afraid I don’t follow you, ThymeZone.
US Patriot
Speaking of Santorum outing himself as a left-wing homosexual, wasn’t one of those Scrutator people gay? I seem to remember some ongoing posts about GOP4Me sodomizing one of the other commenters, but I couldn’t tell if it was a joke or if he was on Rohypnol or what was going on.
Anyway, it seemed pretty funny to me at the time.
ThymeZone
Personally, I think it does. Personally.
Please send for my informative booklet, “How Thinking Something Personally Is So Very Much Better Than Just Thinking It” for just $39.95 plus shipping.
{ Add to Cart }
ThymeZone
I’m afraid too.
US Patriot
Oh, I see. You feel my comments were tautological. Allow me to assure you that this was not the case. I merely wished to distinguish thoughts which were independently conceived from other thoughts on this comment thread. Far too many ideas I read in the blogosphere constitute nothing more than leftist or rightist talking points. Independent cognition is a scarce resource in American political thought, and it’s one I’ve tried to cultivate as much as possible in my own mind.
Well, at least it didn’t come from the barking dog or the voice of God, or the spacemen whispering through the tinfoil transmitter helmet. Again, these phenomena are far too common on the Internet in general, and in the blogosphere in particular.
ThymeZone
Oh, that’s profound. Did you independently arrive at that conclusion? I mean, all by yourself?
And, how many is “far too many?” Do you have graphics on that? I’d prefer color and 3D, but I’ll settle for crayon drawings if that’s all you have.
Methinks you are a new Blatherbot invented by DougJ and his high school shop class.
Dug Jay
Tim asks: “Since when does leaking to the press amount to treason?” There are any number of statutes that may come into play. For example, the recent NSA leaks could trigger one highly specific provision (18 U.S.C. section 798) of the Espionage Act that prohibits the disclosure of communications intelligence. Violation of the statute is a felony punishable by imprisonment up to ten years. There are many other similar situations.
Additionally, a recent court decision may render the publisher of leaked information culpable under certain statutes. Tim apparently has forgotten about the District Court decision of just last week, in which the “…Judge ruled that any First Amendment concerns regarding freedom of speech involving national defense information can be superseded by national security considerations…” While this decision will undoubtedly be appealed, the District Court concluded that indeed the government may prosecute recipients of leaked, classified information, not just the leakers.
US Patriot
Hold my hand, then.
We can make it through this together.
Not that we’re gay or anything. Because we aren’t.
Not that there would be anything particularly wrong with it if we were, either. But we aren’t. We just aren’t.
ThymeZone
You sound like a cross between Dame Edna and scs.
US Patriot
Yes, that’s right.
One is far too many. Take yourself, for example…
Big talk, coming from one of the self-professed architects of Scrutator.
US Patriot
I’m not sure whether to feel flattered or offended.
How would you feel? Please be honest.
US Patriot
I have to say, Dug Jay seems like a much more useful commenter than his counterpart, DougJ.
I like to kid around as much as the next guy, but come on, Doug. Dug is at least rooting up sources and statutes for us. All you’ve done is libel the reputation of Senator Santorum.
(On a personal note, I apologize for my bizarre tangent with ThymeZone. I’ll try to refrain from such activity in the future.)
ThymeZone
Sureness is welcome here. But you seem bent on writing a lot of words about not being sure of things.
Isn’t there a spa you can go to where you can work on being sure of things? Maybe some self esteem training?
Get a grip on yourself. Figuratively speaking, I mean.
ThymeZone
You are confusing big talk with big words.
Not the same thing.
/ USP on
Or is it?
/ USP off
US Patriot
Except when the sureness comes from conservatives. This is the kind of partisan hypocrisy I wish to expose. I also feel that much of the certitude is misplaced, premature, and inaccurate.
Why should I get self esteem training because partisan leftist fire-bombers are too self-righteous to even consider the possibility that they might be wrong? That makes no sense to me.
Thanks for clearing that up. Especially while I’m holding your hand, it would be really icky if you were speaking literally.
US Patriot
I don’t know. I don’t know anything you’re talking about anymore. You seem to be having some sort of bizarre conversation with yourself, and I feel like I’m interrupting you.
What was this thread originally about, anyway? Treason, right? Do you have any thoughts on the matter, ThymeZone?
ThymeZone
Did you take creative writing in high school? Where did you learn to use all these modifiers?
Partisan hypocrisy is so very, awfully much more than just ordinary hypocrisy. Personally, I think so.
USP, you are an inch away from using the term “some say.”
Why don’t you go ahead and use that phrase?
Maybe some tv network will pick you up as a talking head?
ThymeZone
You mean, that’s all it takes to divest you of your faux politeness and get you all hissy?
My first post to the thread, which was one sentence, clearly expresses my view through the use of sarcasm. One sentence from me = fifty from you.
My second post clarifies the thread’s true topic. If you read and listened more, and talked less, you could keep up better.
US Patriot
Mind your own beeswax.
If you agree with me, why are you being so contentious?
Some say a lot of things that don’t land them TV jobs. What’s your point?
ThymeZone
We’d prefer that you only post here if you can keep the topic straight in your head.
Well, wherever you keep them.
ThymeZone
But some do. Sometimes. Right?
Personally, I think that’s right. But on the other hand, I could be wrong. Or not. I think, myself.
Dug Jay
Looks like Miss Time Zone has gone huffy and all that on US Patriot, hmmm?
ThymeZone
Some would say that I’m mocking you. But some would say that I’m mocking you.
US Patriot
I hardly feel that I’m being “hissy.” But in all honesty, trying to converse with you is like trying to communicate underwater, or like a conversation between a tourist who only speaks Pig Latin and a local who only speaks Esperanto. It’s as difficult to converse with you as it is to find two nations on Earth who could provide citizenry making such an imaginary dialogue possible.
So you don’t want to hear any more of the “of the good things about squandering the goodwill and unity of America in return for a few votes”? What does that mean? You only want to discuss golf and fishing from now on?
You mean, “hear more”? What?
ThymeZone
That’s a bicycle. Right?
You are making me two tired.
US Patriot
Is that the royal we, or do you speak on behalf of the collectivist leftist groupthink here?
ThymeZone
Maybe you are trying too hard. Or, as some would say, maybe you are too trying.
It means that it went over your head.
US Patriot
Ipso facto. I guess. Or whatever.
To me, at least, it seems best.
ThymeZone
I have never spoken on behalf. All or nothing, I say.
US Patriot
Maybe he/she has jet lag. Maybe that’s the problem.
ThymeZone
At least?
At least?
US Patriot
Res ipsa loquitur.
ThymeZone
Maybe I have your number.
US Patriot
Stop squeezing my hand. Your palms are clammy.
Better over than under, I guess.
US Patriot
Spoken like a true partisan.
US Patriot
Yes, Socrates.
ThymeZone
So they say. Or, so some would say.
Personally, I think it goes without saying. But, I could be wrong. This is my independent thought.
US Patriot
Well, you didn’t get it from the white pages, anyway.
US Patriot
Some would strongly disagree, of course.
Bullshit. You read it on Daily Kos.
ThymeZone
Have you noticed how much funnier I am than you are?
Of course, in my case it’s intentional.
ThymeZone
I made you say “shit.”
That’s a start. Let it all out.
US Patriot
Some would say. But others would strenuously disagree.
I disagree. Strenuously.
ThymeZone
Call me when they show up.
US Patriot
I made myself say it.
And I’m not letting anything else out. Don’t be lewd.
US Patriot
I think we’ve bored them all away.
It’s a shame, really. At one point, this looked like a promising thread. Then it turned into a “Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon” floating duel between us, and the audience fell asleep.
Sorry, folks. That’s show business for you. Sometimes you get a hit, sometimes you get a shit.
ThymeZone
There you go again, using that royal “we” thing.
Not exactly. I’m selling out of booklets and raking in the cash, while you stuble around with your “personally” and “independently” and your modifier stew and your equivocations and your Nicebot On Crack exchanges.
I’m putting food on my family, to paraphrase a great president.
Oh, our bad. We thought “Balloon-Juice” was a metaphor for formal, diplomatic speech. Well, it was an easy mistake to make.
ThymeZone
Catchy. You should sell the T-shirt.
US Patriot
I very much doubt you have a high profit margin with those things.
Personally, I don’t want to hear about it.
Is that the royal “we”?
Patent pending. (Or whatever you do to copyright t-shirt slogans.)
US Patriot
BTW, didn’t Michael Reagan speak at the Democratic National Convention in 2004? Why is he lurching to the right all of a sudden?
AkaDad
I nominate US Patriot and ThymeZone, for “Best Hijacking of a Discussion Award”.
The Other Steve
Please everybody. Send money to Katherine Harris down in Florida.
She’s now polling at 25%, but I think every wingnut in Florida should have a chance to vote for one of their own!
Krista
Why don’t you two take that show on the road? It’s like a post-modern “Who’s on first?”
Salty Party Snax
George W. Bush’s continuing in office is a victory for Al Qaeda. Who else could have spent half a trillion dollars and still not catch Osama bin Laden?
ThymeZone
.
That depends on whether you think 99% is “high.”
They cost nothing to write, and pennies to publish. I even mark up the shipping.
My masterwork is going to be ready for the fall semester at journalism school: “Some Say: Fairness in Reporting Pushed to Absurdity — and How To Do It And Land An MSM Talking Head Job” — just $199.00 at your local college bookstore.
Some topics:
How to use the phrase ” is reporting that …” as a cover for the fact that you have done no actual reporting yourself.
Why “Some Say” is a useful cover for any lie, any line of bullshit, any grotesque inversion of the truth.
When to use the phrase “Most Americans” to cover up the huge cracks in an argument, or “Elitists” when describing the success of a small interest group.
How to connect Al Qaeda to things you don’t like, like politicians do, to advance your own agenda, while still appearing “fair” and “balanced.”
Why phony politeness is just as popular as real politeness (this one’s for you, USP!).
And many others.
ThymeZone
I’m the king of the royal “we.” That’s what makes me …. well, so royal.
ThymeZone
I forgot to mention, this part has a foreword by the ambiguously gay duo of Ken Mehlman and Big Dick Cheney.
Tim F.
Dug, you have danced around the question without in fact answering anything. Leaking classified information does in fact break any one of several laws involving government secrecy. Even reporting such may break the same laws, depending on whether you believe that we should live in a police state. But you still have not shown where treason comes in.
You might remember that pubs don’t toss around 8 U.S.C. section 798 when they want to smear political opponents, they use treason. Santorum for example. You can try again if you like, but I think we both know that treason is both ridiculous and potentially dangerous to use in this context.
Dug Jay
I assume that the junior Senator from Pennsylvania was using the term, “treason,” in its commonly accepted definition:
1. Violation of allegiance toward one’s country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one’s country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.
2. A betrayal of trust or confidence.
There would appear to be little doubt that his usage fits the circumstances at hand.
Tim F.
Dug, you’re playing semantic games again. (1) obviously does not fit and you simply pulled (2) out of your ass, confusing the legally-significant word ‘treason’ with the schoolyard term ‘betrayal.’ Why didn’t the government accuse Daniel Ellsberg of treason? God knows they would have liked to.
You seem smart enough to know illogic when you see it so I will assume that dialogue isn’t really the point here. Twice baited is enough for one day.
ThymeZone
Bullshit, spoofer. First of all, I don’t think there is a “commonly accepted” definition as you describe it, and second, even if there is, when an official of the government says it, it means the crime of treason in this context. And that’s why we’re talking about it, because Santorum’s speech is abusive and destructive.
That’s why the term “aid and comfort” is tossed about by these turds in suits. As in “levying war against the United States or in giving aid and comfort to its enemies.”
Where do all these mealy-mouthed equivocators come from?
Oh, they’re Republicans. Never mind.
Kimmitt
I just cannot get enough of people proclaiming that a bunch of guys with boxcutters and the occasional pipe bomb are so mighty that we need to suspend Western Civilization and immediately regress to the Divine Right of Kings in order to take them on.
Krista
He has a soul? When did that occur?
scs
Okay, TimF, you accuse ME of exaggerating and caricaturizing when you turned the above quote by Santorum- where he calls for a “more responsible approach” into VIOLENT SCAPEGOATING? My god.
I think we have TimF’s Rule:
TimF EQUAL TO: Allowed to irresponsibly caricature anyone he damn pleases – including lies when he’s cornered
Everyone Else EQUAL TO: NEVER allowed to make fun of TimF
scs
And when did Scutator admit to being spoofs? I missed that. However, I knew from the beginning- unlike all you slow on the uptake folks. Everyone who gave me grief for being on the lookout for spoofs like I was some paranoid crazy should just admit they are just not that bright for catching it themselves when it was so obvious. Ahhh the trouble I get for being prescient.
scs
You’re comparing apples and oranges. This probe started from what I heard, from a tip by an aquaintance of one of the plotters. Once they already had a group of people to start with, and some suspicious behavior to report, they could more easily obtain warrants for these individuals and people associated with these individuals.
That is quite different from the data mining of calls to Pakistan and other hotspots. Those warrantless wiretaps are used more to sift out and find NEW information and contacts and patterns, not to look into already reported specific individuals. Once a suspiscious pattern is found, the US would then get a criminal warrant to investigate for any criminal charges.
Without any criminal behavior to link to, it would be impossible to get warrants for the data sifting they do now. Still, it comes in handy nonetheless in catching terrorists and I’m glad we are doing it. As I believe the actual data monitoring is done in foreign countries, and it is not used directly to get a criminal indictment, plus not actual conversations but public information such as phone numbers are monitored, I believe it may be legal within the letter of the law, although I will leave that to lawyers to decide. I suppose there’s a fine line between espionage and criminal investigations.
In addition, I think it’s difficult to compare the sprawling US with confined Europe, where most Muslims are housed in certain barrios. Because of Europe’s density and less mobility, European authorities probably have an easier time of keeping track of who to look out for, as it’s probably a poorly kept secret who the trouble makers are there, and would probably not need to resort to the same wide net as much as we do.
Ancient Purple
Is that “I knew from the beginning” that the sun would rise tomorrow? Or “I knew from the beginning” that Anchorage, Alaska was a liberal bastion?
Trust me, scs. We didn’t need you to state much to think you were paranoid crazy.
Ancient Purple
God forbid they, you know, change the law or the Constitution in order to allow them more flexibility in rules of evidence so that they can get their warrants.
230 years of jurisprudence out the window because Bush and his GOP flunkies are too lazy to change the law or go to the states seeking to change the Constitution.
scs
Okay “Ancient”, tag du jour. The mark of an idiot is someone who doesn’t know how to keep things in perspective. First of all, I did not say I KNEW Anchorage was a liberal town. I only stated what I knew from what I heard about it. I KNEW it had an important university there for the state, I KNEW it had a tourist’s scene, and I KNEW it also had an arts scene. I KNOW that all of those factors can often lead to a more creative and hence more liberal population. However, I said that I did not KNOW this for sure as I said I had never been there.
If you can not tell the difference between a theory and KNOWING, you are even dumber than I thought. But I think you can. So I would appreciate if you stop repeating your same tired lies.
scs
See what I wrote above. There is no way to get warrants just on a phone number. If we change that in the constitution, we might as well chuck it out entirely. No, what Bush did is better considered foreign espionage, and we should just leave it at that.
Ancient Purple
Right, scs.
This coming from a person who stated that because a town bordered a college town, it probably was liberal.
Talk about someone who doesn’t know how to keep perspective.
scs
Uhhh, yeah, when it’s only one mile away. Probably a good theory.
I wonder if they have a line painted down the highway there- Libs this way- GOP this way. It sounds like a real West Side Story.
scs
Besides Anceint, if that’s the only thing you can get me on all this time, then that’s pretty pathetic.
ThymeZone
Fall Drama Queen enrollment already under way?
“Catching it?” Everybody was in on it.
Except you.
And you are a paranoid crazy. Nutty as a fucking fruitcake.
Tim F.
Any unfounded accusation of treason by a powerful politician amounts to violent scapegoating. The crime carries the death penalty, scs. You cannot possibly be dense enough not to see the significance behind Santorum’s statement.
It happened about a month ago, I’m sure that somebody will gladly link the post for you. For what it’s worth they gave it away as soon as Krista took up the pseud Lysistrata. You might not get it but the knowing wink at fans of Aristophanes was a touch too clever.
Par R
Where did all the anti-Semitic regulars go? This site used to be more interesting…albeit, disgusting.
ThymeZone
1. Being 100% wrong on 100% of the topics you post to
2. Playing the faux victim all the time
3. The phony “sexual harassment” whines
4. Willful ignorance about the Schiavo case
5. Pretend politeness as a veneer for seething rage
6. Apparent gender flexibility
7. Using trash science as a smokescreen for trailer-park worldviews
8. Crying like a schoolgirl when attacked
9. Faux centrism disguising abject wingnuttery
I could go on, but …. why?
Tulkinghorn
Which anti-semitic regulars? I don’t recall any.
I don’t think fascists could get more crypto.
Ancient Purple
Operationally, you are correct. You are an easy target because you are consistently wrong on the things you blather about.
Content-wise, however, you are incorrect, because your writings are a goldmine. Everything from your Schiavo bile right down to your gifted insight that evangelical=fundamentalist.
You really must work very, very hard to make yourself that ignorant.
But do keep up the good work.
Darrell
If the press leaks involved outing CIA agents, for one. I’m no lawyer, but I suspect leaking the nuclear launch codes might qualify as treasonous actions as well.
Darrell
No it doesn’t. You’re over the top with that assertion Tim, but you’ll never admit it. Santorum’s “violent” scapegoating:
Key word being “if”, rendering Santorum’s quote non-violent by any rational standard. Care to own up to your leftist hyperbole now Tim?
Also, for the record, do you find the NY Time’s reporting of details involving the tracking of terrorist finances to be at the least, unpatriotic? It’s telling how so many noble ‘patriots’ on the left defended the NY Time’s “right” to publish details of legal secret programs involving national security.
Tulkinghorn
Darrell:
Why the reference to the NY Times? If it is legal to print something, any newspaper is free to print it.
Unless you are suggesting some other point about certain people being eager to stab us all in the back.
Oh, by the way, Par R. has been looking for you.
Darrell
Thus speaketh the ‘reality based’ community. It’s not that we are taking additional reasonable precautions.. No, we are ‘suspending Western civilization’.. criminal Bush is ‘shredding’ the constitution. etc, etc. What’s so hilarious is that so many of you leftist aholes claim to be “nuanced”.
Darrell
It is not legal to leak details of national security programs and activities to the press. And how patriotic of you to defend and excuse what the NY Times has done.
Par R
Hey there, Tulk, you great big ignorant anti-you-know-what. Where have you been lurking…in the sewer?
Darrell
Coming from a halfwit like AP, scs should wear that insult as a badge of honor.
The Other Steve
How interesting, that’s just what Hitler said too.
Darrell
Godwin ahole
Darrell
Not a “schoolyard” term pulled out of someone’s ass, but the very dictionary definition of the word treason
Ancient Purple
Says the bigot and homophobe.
VidaLoca
Darrell,
Santorum affirmed his “if” premise previously however, in the same statement from which Tim quotes:
He’s not exactly beating around the bush there.
Uh-oh. Scooter Libby just called, he sounded concerned.
ThymeZone
Thread closed.
Darrell the bigoted, child-murdering stupid fuck has polluted it.
This is your rain check.
Tulkinghorn
Par R
I just lurk around here, watching Darrell decry the New York Times, as if the major newspaper with Jewish ownership is the source of all the ‘treason’ in the media. Stabbed in the back, and all that.
Of course, Novak outing Plame fits his definition of treason exactly (“If the press leaks involved outing CIA agents”), but that did not involve a newspaper owned by Jews, so apparently it is not treason.
And keep in mind, administration officials, appointed by Bush, leaked the NSA scandal. It involved national security, and the deliberate violation of the law on a systematic basis. If that is treason, then we ought to make the most of it.
But of course, the right-wing backlash here is all focused on what the wingnuts call the “Jew York Times”. Which is all the more evidence that liberals are antisemitic, I suppose. I can’t figure all this bullshit of yours out – it just makes no sense.
Krista
You’re a touch too clever, Timothy. Besides, I wasn’t counting on our target audience being all that familiar with 2400-year-old satire.
Darrell
I didn’t realize that the identities of the NSA leaker(s) had been established, much less linked to the Bush admin. Do you have a source/link? Of course, every good liberal knows that the NSA leaks, classified details of an effective national security program targeting terrorists, those were “good” leaks, exposing criminal Bush’s nefarious plots to shred the constitution.
I’ve yet to read a conservative on this site use that term and I challenge you to cite even one. In fact, I haven’t seen that term used on any conservative site/blog. Tulkinghorn, you are one stupid jackass. No surprise you’re a liberal.
Tulkinghorn
Darrell:
Whoever leaked the NSA program worked for the NSA or the Justice department. Big intuitive step needed to show the problem is not with democrats.
You made the comment about the New York Times. Leftists do not rail against that one paper whenever they complain about the media, but conservatives almost invariably do. Why?
The conservatives on this site are too polite to use that specific term, I will grant you that.
My point is not what term you use, but that the conservative railing against ‘treason’ is part of an anti-semitic script that is very old and well established. Yet, the right routinely calls people who disagree with it traitors, and cites the New York Times above all other media.
And in a lovely act of projection, I am called antisemitic for pointing it out.
Darrell
I take it you are too stupid to know that working for the NSA is not a political appointment for most positions. And how about some honest acknowledgement that you pulled it out of your ass that the leakers were “appointed” by Bush?
Let’s recap your position Tulk – disagreement with the NY Times is code for anti-semitism. You probably don’t see yourself as an extremist whackjob, do you?
Tulkinghorn
Disagreement with the New York Times is not antisemitism — but antisemitics have a fixation with the New York Times. Since any newspaper given that scoop about the NSA would have published (such as WSJ, USA Today, etc.), I think the problem is not with the Times but with the free press, such as it is a problem.
And yes, much as in certain circles “New York” or “Hollywood” is code for “the Jews”, the New York Times is often code for “the Jews”.
So maybe you are not antisemitic. But you are talking like a fascist creep.
When a newspaper filling its constitutionally protected role of disseminating information about apparently illegal activities by the government is accused of treason,
and there is a pervasive meme being pushed out there about decadent secular elements in New York and Hollywood treasonously undermining the Great War On Terrorism,
especially now that the Iraq adventure has failed, and the right-wing statists who pushed us into said adventure are scapegoating the failure on those of us decadent coastal secularists who warned this was a bad idea from the start, because our negative attitude seemes to have weakened our resolve, and exposed our divisions to the enemy,
thereby stabbing our good soldiers in the back and betraying the ‘homeland’,
it is pretty clear that this administration is working out of a national socialist playbook. And so are you, Darrell.
Coda: I think there is an exception to Godwin’s Law if you are actually talking about fascism. Let John and Tim make the call.
US Patriot
I was speaking more broadly, Kimmitt. Do you, as a leftist, support the right of maniacs to shout “Fire” in a crowded theatre? Perhaps not. Moving right along, do you support the right of terrorism suspects to communicate with other potential terrorists, enjoying a conversation devoid of wiretapping unless federal government agents first receive a warrant from judges all too slow to review the evidence of reasonable suspicion?
If the answer to this second question is “no”, what are you complaining about? If the answer to it is “yes”, then what is the Constitution to you if not a suicide pact?
US Patriot
It was a while ago. GOP4Me admitted to sleeping with about half the male commenters and all the female commenters, and that made his continuation as a faux right-winger somewhat untenable. Then I think DougJ outed them all. That was the way they portrayed it, but it’s hard to figure out when spoofs are lying and when they’re telling the truth.
I have to say, it did seem pretty funny, though.
US Patriot
What Santorum said may well have been baseless, spiteful, opinionated political rhetoric. But that’s no different than much of the liberal blather about the Bush Administration. Can we please wait until all the facts are in before gauging whether or not Santorum’s statements are intrinsically offensive or worthless? It’s only the same consideration that liberals would want extended to their own statements, after all.
US Patriot
Or, according to the US Supreme Court, leaking information on how to construct a nuclear weapon.
The conservatives are wrong when they act as if the Constitution should be tossed out the window at the very hint of danger. But isn’t it fair to point out that the liberals are at least as dense and wrong when they act as if every reasonable measure undertaken to protect the lives of American citizens is tantamount to adding a swastika to the flag and changing the national anthem to “Deutschland Uber Alles”?
US Patriot
It pains me to have to agree with Darrell this much, as he ordinarily strikes me as one of the less polite extremist right-wingers on this blog. But in this thread, I think he’s being much more rational and reasonable than the overwhelming majority of leftist commenters in attendance.
US Patriot
Case in point.
Heaven forbid liberals should be forced to have a discussion once conservatives appear to debate the issues with them. No, it’s far better to savage centrists like me, then hurl insults and skulk away once Darrell and moderate conservatives like scs appear.
Sometimes, it feels like no one around here wants to have a reasonable discussion at all.
Krista
20 years should about do it, right?
US Patriot
Well, hopefully not that long. But who knows? We have to wait until all the facts are in. That may only take a month or two, or it might be 2 years, or it might be twenty.
Meanwhile, don’t let me stop your partisan firebombing. It’s obviously much more effective than an actual dialogue in light of actual reality.
Tulkinghorn
To the (limited) degree liberals do treat reasonable measures as creeping fascism, they are being ridiculous. The first USAPATRIOT Act is a good example. The law over-reached in a couple regards, but it was enacted quickly, had a short effective period, and was not greatly abused or misused by the administration. Liberals who denounced it sounded pretty foolish. I have plenty of complaints about the administration, but the USA PATRIOT Act is not one of them. Its name does sound kinda creepy and scary-nationalist, but much less so than the Department of Homeland Security, which was a Democratic idea even though the Democrats would like everybody to forget that.
There are things that the political apparatus of the the administration do and say that are very creepy, and which should be beyond the pale. The ‘Ned Lamont is a Traitor’ line is outrageous and unforgiveable, and it is popping up in the mouths of prominant republicans throughout the country. Somebody has focussed-groupe the line with some base-voters and is promulgating and pushing what they should be ashamed to say. Same thing (see above) where the NYT is denounced for doing its job, while forgetting all the times the Times has covered for the administration (see Judith Miller fiasco).
My opint is that when Democrats goo to far, they tend to ake themelves look stupid. The Republicans are going too far as a matter of party policy and discipline, and are sounding increasingly authoritarian.
scs
So TimF, by your standard, does that mean all the Libs who accused Karl Rove of leaking state secrets, who was found by a thorough legal investigation to be cleared of such charges, were engaging in violent scapegoating and unfounded accusations?
Please, when Santorum asks for the media to act responsibly, it is a reasonable demand. I mean, do you not want the media to act responsibly? There is a huge ocean between that and “unfounded accusations” of treason. To suggest otherwise is to engage in caricatures. There should be a place for a person in this country to legitimately question the actions of others without being accused of “violent scapegoating”. Aren’t we allowed to have free discourse in this country?
So I suppose when a Lib accuses a Republican of leaking secrets, like Karl Rove, without the final evidence, that’s okay. It’s not violent scapegoating. But when a Republican accuses a more liberal outlet of leaking secrets – that turns into an ‘unfounded accusation of treason’and violent scapegoating? An unfounded accusation is determined to be unfounded after a legal investigation. It is not up to TimF to determine what is unfounded. But since your specialty is hypocrisy and caricaturizing your political opponents, I wouldn’t expect you to get that. You know, I really don’t know how John allows you to post such drivel. I suppose it gives him more free time to watch Lost and football on TV I guess.
Dustbin Of History
Please, when Santorum asks for the media to act responsibly, it is a reasonable demand.
Actually, I distinctly recall him using the word ‘traitorous’ which pretty much puts him in the same camp as those Unhinged Moonbats ™ you deride for using the same term with regards to Karl Rove. So is Senator Santorum an Unhinged Wingnut ™, or is it IOKIYAR?
scs
Tim F, I don’t why you insist on taking me on on the Classics. Everytime we get into a debate you try to test my knowledge of Latin or the Ancient Greeks. That is kind of bizarre. Are we living in 1806? Did I just travel back to the future when learning about the classics was all the rage and the standard of one’s intellectual pedigree?
You know my dad caught the tail end of that when he grew up in Germany. At the school he went to, he had to take years of Latin and study ancient Greek and memorize many quotes from Ancient figures. But they phased that out soon after. Still he quotes some of that to me every now and then, even though he admits that learning Ancient Greek was a collosal waste of time.
Actually I think I have a pretty fair knowledge of the classics as far as your average person. As my mother was born in Rome, we took frequent trips to Rome as children, visiting all the ancient monuments. Such trips inspired in me and my brother to read up on all our mythology. In fact they used to tease my brother and called him the “Greek freak”. And although I never took Latin, my ability to understand Italian gives me a fair ability to decipher some of it.
So all in all, my Ancient knowledge is, I would estimate, above average to good. So really Tim, you should think of another area to try and challenge me. Hey, here’s a thought, how about the debate at hand? Why don’t you try that for once?
scs
I am really starting to think BJ is a spoof blog too. I mean, I already knew a majority of the posts were DougJ clones, but I am really starting to think almost ALL posts are spoof posts, even some of the regulars I didn’t suspect before. Their characters are way too psychotic to be real. Oh well, the fun part about blogging is getting to read what you yourself wrote, so I guess in the end it doesn’t really matter. This page is kind of an entertainment/sport page for me now.
Darrell
Perhaps you can point us to evidence of these “wrong” conservatives clamoring to “toss the constitution out the window”. I hear a lot of liberals (and now self described moderates) making this accusation, and I smell dishonest phony bullshit. Must feel ’empowering’ to tell off these caricatured make-believe conservatives trying to ‘shred’ the constitution though, huh?
Darrell
Which ‘prominent Republicans’ have called Lamont a traitor? Name them, or admit you you’re a lying sack of shit.
Darrell
Which ‘prominent Republicans’ have called Lamont a traitor? Name them, or admit you’re a lying sack of shit.
Darrell
You are precisely one of those Democrats who routinely “go to far”. You Tulk, are a dishonest extremist asshole who repeatedly makes dishonest accusations and claims, then never admits it when proven wrong, while pointing fingers at others.
scs
Here Here Darrell. Now don’t you end up being a spoof too. If so, you’re a spoof I’d like to keep.
Darrell
I’m not a spoof, I’m a “child murderer” according to leftist whackjob #7390471 posted on this thread at 5:02pm.
scs
Yeah, and I was accused of living in a trailer park by number 34838383. Which is strange that he used that as an insult and not a compliment, because isn’t that where Libs get many of their voters from?
ThymeZone
That’s right. Anybody who defends the bombing of children in their sleep is a child murderer. And that’s you.
You are also a bigot and a homophobe.
You are also a proven liar.
You are also the asshole who attacks anyone who disagrees with you as “scum.”
You have acccused people who disagree with you as being in favor of the deaths of US servicemen.
Don’t whine, Darrell. Everybody here knows what you are, and so do you. Cut the crap.
ThymeZone
Who the fuck are you to talk to anyone here like that? You sling lies and bullshit here every day, and refuse to answer direct questions and challenges whenever you feel like it.
You want to play tough-talk guy here? I will get in your face and shout your ass down every fucking time you post here from now until hell freezes over.
Take your loudmouth challenge and shove it up your ass.
chriskoz
US Patriot says:
Here comes this falsehood once again. It’s false because FISA provides for retroactively obtaining warrants legally. So if speed is a factor, it’s covered by the law. I would guess few, if any, here would have a problem with legal wiretapping. But, The fact that you are using this false line of argument suggests to me that one of two things is happening here…
1) You are uninformed on the topic and actually believe this argument. In which case, it’s an understandable mistake. But, I suggest you read up on the wiretap laws. (There is quick discussion of the relevant FISA section here )
or…
2) You are aware of this fact, and still disingenuously use the “slow process” in an argument. In which case, you lose all credibility. Especially as a levelheaded commenter waiting for the “facts”. (Since it would appear you would be willing to ignore them anyway)
So my question is… US Patriot, were you aware of this fact concerning retroactive FISA warrants?
Since you also seem to suggest that Kimmitt is concerned about “the right of terrorism suspects” (as opposed to possibly his own “rights and freedoms as an American”) I’m gonna guess your answer should be #2.
I’m also open to any argument you might have for an option #3. Just as long as it’s not “Look… over there… a Jackalope!”
Pb
What a great quote–and how fitting that Darrell would come up with it!
US Patriot
I agree, Tulkinghorn. The Patriot Act was, by and large, a reasonable response to unreasonable terrorist actions.
I agree that this kind of rhetoric is outrageous and slanderous, if untrue. It seems very unlikely that Ned Lamont is a traitor. It seems highly likely that this is Republican fear-mongering. However, I remain open to the possibility that my interpretation of this situation is inaccurate, pending additional factual evidence.
Authoritarianism is another form of stupidity, though. Democratic and Republican stupidity are simply two manifestations of the same moronic neurosis: partisan extremism.
US Patriot
I hardly think that learning anything is a “colossal waste of time”, scs. There may be an excess of emphasis on “classical” learning, but that hardly justifies the contrary extreme of a celebration of ignorance of them. (I’m not accusing you of such celebration, as the rest of your post avidly discusses ancient learning. But some people have, indeed, actively revelled in an unawareness of all ancient thought.)
“Lysistrata” is the best-known play by the satiric playwright Aristophanes. It’s a very antiwar play. The idea is that the women of Sparta and Athens stop a war between their cities by refusing to have sex with any of the men until the peace is made.
I guess Tim is operating under the assumption that we’ll all do a Google search of one another’s handles. It’s an unreasonable assumption, but slightly less unreasonable than expecting everyone to have read the entire genre of obscure deceased Hellenics. Frankly, I got the reference and just assumed that this “Lysistrata” person was just trying to emphasize that he/she was a moderate Republican on a site run by extremist right-wing firebreathers.
US Patriot
I think that’s probably a healthy attitude to take. But it makes me sad, because I’m interested in a spirited intellectual debate of the issues. Instead, I get ThymeZone playing with me for 40 posts about the definition of “personally”, and whatever points I was originally trying to make are lost forever.
Still, it’s not every blog where one can disagree with a ThymeZone AND a Darrell in the very same thread, and I have to give it credit for that.
US Patriot
Well, these conservatives certainly seem like extremist whackjobs to me, Darrell. What do you make of it?
Some of your own ideas also strike me as outrageous and beyond the pale- work camps for illegal aliens, for example, or the idea that all Katrina victims were lazy homeless bums prior to the catastrophe. These ideas are not acceptable in, or near, the mainstream of American political thought. Even the hardcore Republican conservative community would take pains to disavow this level of radical extremism. (As is evidenced by the deafening silence of support for Goldwater’s camp idea.)
US Patriot
Option #3 is that the law doesn’t cover every contingency of the War on Terror. It makes sense, since the law was written long before 9/11. I think the Administration should work to change the law, but I also feel that if taking extralegal measures for brief periods of time is necessary to stop advanced terrorist planning, I’ll sleep easier at night worrying about the Bushies crossing a line on a law than I would realizing that they let a couple hundred Americans die because they decided terrorists have civil rights, too.
I realize not everyone may agree with that viewpoint, but from where I sit in the center it seems to be the most responsible one. Reasonable minds not clouded by partisan rancor or personal vituperativeness would tend to agree.
Tom in Texas
If Rick Santorum is purged from the roll of Pennsylvania Senators, it will simply be further proof that the entire state is out of touch with the mainstream of America. Perhaps he and Joe can start a new party. Call it the Moralizing Minority for Massacring Mesopotamians. Slogan: We’re Holier Than Thou.
Tractarian
USP: Your problem is that you assume that “taking extralegal measures for brief periods of time is necessary to stop advanced terrorist planning.” Reasonable minds could differ on that, especially considering recent events in London.
Besides, what’s a “brief period of time”? Five years? Fifteen years? End of the WOT? At some point you have to say that the Rule of Law should take precedence over the convenience of the executive branch.
Tulkinghorn
This thread should probably bellwed to die on the vine, but I did not want to surrender the field in spite of needing to go to bed.
Does Cheney call Lamont a traitor here? Not exactly, but he certainly suggests it. In short, Lamont wants us to lose in Iraq, and will hamstring the president.
It is not just that calling the victory of a candidate in the opposing party a success for the enemy is unfair or unamerican, although it is those things. What the politicization of foreign policy does is to make it impossible to form any sort of consensus for going forward.
Cheney et alia do not even leave open the possibility for operating in good faith.
scs
Hey USP, that was my Dad’s opinion, not mine. He learned some Ancient Greek and by his own life experience, decided it was a waste of time. You can’t blame the guy for his own opinion.
I also think however that learning things in which there are no uses for them in the real world is a waste of time, especially when there are so many other pertinent things to learn. I think a lot of the learning about the Classics had and has to do with the intellectual snobbery of the upper classes, with the upper classes taking comfort in the idea that they knew a hell of a lot about something that the masses would never have any opportunity or call to know about because it had no relation to the world they lived in. Kind of like TimF is attempting to do now, trying to embarrass and bully me with his “superior” knowledge in the Classics, as if that meant he was a more intelligent person, or had a more cultured upbringing somehow, (even though he picked the wrong target when he picked me for that effort).
Basically that whole effort to learn about the Classics seemed to me to die out with the shrinking of the leisure classes, and the wanna be leisure classes, when people actually had to get a job for a living and function in the real world. However you still see traces of this attempt at intellectual snobbery in some private schools, where they try and act as if the students were little noblemen and noblewomen of yore. For example, polo is also popular in some of these schools. And you also see it in people who try and “act” like they went to a private school. These are people who try to slip in some Latin to try to convince others of their great intelligence and sophistication, when they can’t win a debate otherwise. I suppose snobbery and idiocy, like the Classics, will never truly die out.
scs
By the way, Hitler was a real fan of the Classics. He tried to model his Nazi state after Ancient Rome. Who knew Hitler and TimF had so much in common?
Par R
Good old anti-Semite, Tulk, opines in his usual ignorant and totally absurd manner:
What a load of silly crap. Thus far, only one such official has been publically identified, Ms. McCarthy, and she and her husband have contributed many thousands of dollars to Democrats, including the Flip-Flopper, John Kerry. And she was not appointed by Bush.
The Other Steve
Godwin ahole.
ThymeZone
Some people around here seem to love bullshit, so I thought I’d serve up a dose of the most disgusting, nauseating cowardly old woman bullshit I could find in the last week.
I think everyone will recognize it, you heard it on the radio and tv every half hour for three days.
Be afraid, says the little alcholic prick of a president. Be very afraid.
So be afraid, motherfuckers. Quake in your little Republican cowardly boots.
Pb
Hitler liked dogs.
Ancient Purple
Hitler liked classical music.
Punchy
I think USP has set records for the sheer number of posts in one thread.
Meanwhile, due to the threat of LIQUIDS BEING MIXED AND DETONATED, TSA is now….incredibly….jaw-droppingly…. re-inforcing the rule that…wait for it…one must X-ray their shoes.
Yes, in response to liquid-borne explosives, our gov’t agency responds by looking at…your shoes….again.
I just cannot believe how fucked up these idiots are.
US Patriot
If Rick Santorum loses, it is a successful demonstration of the will of the public. If Lieberman loses, likewise. However, Lieberman’s loss in the primary merely demonstrated that the Far Left has taken control of the Democratic Party. What this means in November is difficult to say. It is possible that the partisan extremists of the Left will score a temporary victory in 2006, perhaps even in 2008. But ultimately, the pendulum will swing back to the Right. Where does the truth lie? Somewhere in the middle. One can only glimpse it fleetingly, during the exact central moment of a pendulum-swipe. This is why politics is usually merely an exercise in mob-watching faddery. No one cares about the truth, only about rubbing their enemies’ noses in defeat.
ThymeZone
In the middle.
That would be right near your transverse colon, right?
US Patriot
They certainly could.
Yes, but reasonable minds could differ on how long that would take. Some would say longer times than others. I’d prefer to give the POTUS the benefit of the doubt, but then again I can hardly blame partisan leftists for disagreeing with me. After all, it’s in their nature to attack partisan rightists. And vice versa.
ThymeZone
There you have it.
You have now ascended to the level of Stone Phillips.
John S.
What a foul thread.
Between Darrell, ParR and scs, any attempt to follow what passes for a “debate” is utterly futile.
Keep up the good work, everyone. If you’re going to blow, blow HARD.
Darrell
I never said or suggested work camps for illegal aliens USP. Show me where I did or come back and admit you’re a lying sack of shit who just makes things up. You fucking completely made that up.
Never said or suggested that either. Show me where I did. You are dishonestly creating strawmen and trying to falsely attribute statements to me that I never made in order to “make your point”. You’re dishonest as hell. Like I said above, I can smell phony bullshit like yours a mile away
ThymeZone
Unlike the honest way you spawn them twenty times a day?
STFU, asshole.
US Patriot
Do you disagree with it, or not? I learned some Ancient Greek too, and although I don’t remember any of it I hardly consider it a waste of time. I learned how to read another language! This trained my mind to think in alien tongues, and made it easier for me to learn another, more modern language, later on down the road. It wasn’t snobbery, it was an unexpected tangential benefit. Something your dismissiveness fails to take into consideration.
So many fields of study we could throw out on the basis of their having no “uses in the real world”! Archaeology, out the window. Egyptology, into the trashcan! (Especially since we never would’ve learned anything about it if some Frenchmen hadn’t spoken Ancient Greek when they found the Rosetta Stone.) Say, what are blogs good for, anyway? This is purely entertainment, just like Ancient Greek and People magazine and recreational sports and recreational drugs and philology and alcohol and non-procreative sex and anthropology and astrology and philately and dozens of other fields of human endeavour! Into the trashcan with all of it! To do otherwise would be intellectually snobbish, and unfair to those who don’t enjoy these particular hobbies or recreations.
I think the “snobbery of the upper classes” came from being the only people literate at the time, not from being literate in Ancient Greek. It wasn’t exactly like there was a 99% literacy rate back in the 19th century, scs. You had 1% of the population who could read English, Ancient Greek, Latin, and Persian, and you had 99% of the population who could- maybe- read and write their full name.
Basically, that whole effort died out with the invention of TV. Studying the classics was a leisure time activity, and once a “better” leisure activity arose, people abandoned it. They stopped studying history and literature at around the same time, those were written in English but I guess they were only a waste of time for intellectual snobs, too.
Snobbery and idiocy are occasionally married bedfellows, scs, but more often they represent the polar opposites. Some extremists embrace snobbery, others embrace idiocy. Where does the truth lie? Somewhere in the middle, where it may or may not have a copy of Plato’s Republic buried under the pillow.
And as far as I know, the people in the world who play the most polo are illiterate Afghan tribesmen. The only connection they have with the classics is that the last person who successfully conquered them for any extended period of time was Alexander the Great. But don’t worry about that, it’s uninteresting, a waste of time, and intellectually snobbish to even mention it.
Darrell
How honest and balanced of you not to point to the far worse over the top comments coming from those on your side of the political spectrum
ThymeZone
You wouldn’t know honest and balanced if they shit right on your keyboard.
Shut up.
US Patriot
The Founding Fathers were also real fans of the Classics. So was Napoleon, who was the person Hitler modeled his efforts after. Napoleon copied from Ancient Rome, Hitler copied from Napoleon.
Hitler was a great fan of an ignorant population dying by the hundreds of thousands to create his master dream of a Europe enslaved on behalf of the Master Race. Contrary education, whether it came from Freud or Marx (contemporaries) or from Epictetus and Plutarch (Ancient guys), was not welcome.
Hitler was also a real fan of Wagner. Who knew Hitler and Robert Duvall had so much in common?
ThymeZone
USP: Hitler’s manservant, ladies and gentlemen.
US Patriot
It would be rude not to respond to those responding to me.
Darrell
USP is a spoof.. I’d bet money it’s DougJ or GOP4me. Note how he links to “shelley the republican”, some obscure blog as evidence of mainstream conservative opinion. Furthermore, I recall that GOP4mme and/or Doug have mentioned Shelley the Republican’s blog previously on BJ threads, leading me to believe it’s another of their spoof sites. Definitely a spoof.. and a lying ahole to boot.
Tim F.
When I ask you to argue better this is exactly the sort of thing that I’m talking about. Most people who accused Karl Rove of leaking state secrets did not actually accuse him of treason. Some random internet personalities did so, and in the same vein some internet personalities thought that we should nuke Fallujah. The net gives any idiot a voice.
So nobody who matters accused Rove of treason and to your credit you did not even claim that they did. Sadly that honest gesture also renders your point irrelevant. If no major Democratic officeholders alleged treason (try to remember: death penalty) then you can hardly accuse them of violent demagoguery. Unlike, say, Rick Santorum.
US Patriot
I don’t know anything about anatomy. I think anatomy is a colossal waste of time, and a means for snobbish doctors to lord it over the rest of us.
Did you know Hitler was a big fan of human anatomy? He had lots of people killed by shooting them and chopping their heads off. That proves he knew how to kill people. Apparently, Hitler and ThymeZone have a lot in common.
ThymeZone
So who’s writing your crummy character today?
US Patriot
If I knew who that was, I might be flattered or offended.
Tim F.
When it comes to self-defeating arguments we are dealing with a true master. My hat is off to you, scs.
ThymeZone
Heard of Google? I get 19m hits from the name.
ThymeZone
More likely, something in between for you.
US Patriot
.
You said it a month ago, in the thread about labor camps for illegal aliens. I’m not doing research into your posts, though, Darrell. I’m not your biographer. You said it, and everyone knows you said it. You have zero credibility on this blog, anyway, so what do I care what you call me?
Sorry Darrell, I have better things to do than go back a year to old threads you mangled and dredge up your own greatest hits for you. The knowledge that it’s there, safe and sound in Internet reality, and the knowledge that you know you said it makes it all the more satisfying.
You can’t help being dishonest. I blame years of intense childhood trauma, but perhaps there’s another root cause. Would you care to share it, Darrell?
US Patriot
It’s common knowledge among the intellectually snobbish, ThymeZone. My professor mentioned it in Ancient Greek class.
Punchy
I think Hilter was a fan of Tim F.
ThymeZone
You are starting to sound rational.
Poor Darrell. If you lose USP, you’ve lost America.
ThymeZone
There’s a class about ancient Greeks?
How old are we talking? 75? 80?
Punchy
And if anyone knows who “Hilter” is, please email me and send me a dictionary while you’re at it…
US Patriot
Darrell is really scs… that’s the only way to explain their little snuggle-session upthread.
I thought GOP4Me and DougJ were the same person, Darrell. Along with Perry Como and a dozen other people. How could I be one or the other if I’m really both? And what if I’m neither? Doesn’t that mean you’ve actually made a mistake? Would you care to concede this mistake, or will you ignore it and deny it like you’ve done with all your other errors?
This whole spoof strawman game is an excuse to change the subject when you’re losing an argument, Darrell. When you have nothing left, you have to come at your enemies with nothing. It’s who you are. (Who writes you, anyway? John Cole? ThymeZone? Am I writing you myself, and then blotting out the memory of doing it? That would explain why we both talk too much, anyway. Yes, I think that would explain a lot of things…)
US Patriot
Humor the indolent, JetLag. I’m not up to scanning Google for you.
ThymeZone
Oh, thanks a lot. I thought we were bonding yesterday, and now this slap?
US Patriot
True, I am feeling rather indifferent right about now.
ThymeZone
Remember, moderation in all things.
US Patriot
Only because I’m attacking your enemies.
Darrell was always a partisan extremist, ThymeZone. That’s why you and him get along so well. Two sides of the same coin.
To be fair, though, Darrell is far less polite than most of his leftist counterparts. Even you aren’t as rude as he is. His inability to engage in rational discourse is profoundly disheartening. I can only assume his father gave him an inordinate number of beatings as a child, leaving him a gaping maw of insecurity he has chosen to fill by stuffing reactionary pamphlets inside. Or, perhaps, his mother dressed him up as a girl and sent him to school, and the only way he could handle the intense psychic trauma and shame was to transfer his rage and self-loathing to another target, namely the center and left of American politics. (Could this also explain his fear of homosexual boy scouts?)
I’m no psychologist, but Darrell is almost an interesting enough case study to make me want to go back to undergrad.
US Patriot
Well, you’d get props for writing a starkly contrasting viewpoint, anyway. I’d have to deduct points for redundant talking points and phraseology, though.
US Patriot
Including moderation?
ThymeZone
Justin Raimondo.
In case you all forgot that there are things going on out there in the real world.
The Other Steve
LOL! Darrell, the king of cherry picking is complaining about some other guy cherry picking a wingnut website?
I figured US Patriot was you. He sounds like one of your bizarre centrist characters… you know, how both sides are wrong, but I’m voting Republican because the Democrats might allow gays to become scout leaders.
ThymeZone
Especially moderation.
ThymeZone
Raimondo.
Text of UN Resolution
ThymeZone
Let’s see. Treat gays as second class citizens because you can get away with it, and it might win you some votes,
versus …
Treat everybody equally, with respect, and stop scapegoating Americans for political gain.
What “coin” was that again?
ThymeZone
Yawn, just another big US clusterfuck. What else is new?
DougJ
Speaking of spoofs, I got this into WaPo today
ThymeZone
OMFG, funniest line of the year.
ThymeZone
NYT.
Doncha just love these motherfuckers?
ThymeZone
On the suggestion of Paul Krugman, the new Republican Slogan for 2006:
“The only thing we have to hope for, is fear itself.”
US Patriot
Yes, because politics exist for your personal amusement, and it’s hilarious to make fun of people who try to protect us from the terrorists trying to kill us.
Darrell, I’m very offended you even mentioned me in the same post as this cretin.
scs
And when I ask you to go back to debating school, this is exactly what I mean. You never seem to get it TimF. I was making a comparison using your rules – kind of like an SAT question- you know – if this relates to this, then A relates to B.
To go over it slowly for you. Santorum called for journalists to be more responsible in terms of leaking state secrets which caused you to call what he said “violent scapegoating” and “unfounded accusations of treason”.
Since many Libs ALSO accused Karl Rove of leaking state secrets, later determined to be an unfounded charge, that would mean by your rules, the TimF rules which are that merely saying someone is leaking state secrets is the SAME THING as “violent scapegoating” (see Santorum comparison above), then that would mean by that logic that also the Dems were then engaging in “violent scapegoating”.
Which of course I don’t believe most were. However, if we use your logic rules, they would be. That’s why I wrote that TImF, to use your logic and apply it to another case to show you how ridiculous it sounds. But I think I have to save the advanced logic class for another time, after you master the basics first.
scs
See Tim, this is another example. I was JOKING. Putting Hitler in context with anything usually turns out as a joke because it is so ridiculous. especially Hitler and TimF, the ultra Lib.
If you couldn’t get that, then, wow, we have some work to do here.
scs
Okay, USP is defienitly the man(?) (well only a man would be a geek enough to do all that) we know as DougJ. That post had DougJ’s writing style all over it.
Someone should really track down DougJ and do a story on him for the papers as a human interest article. I bet it would get published. What human has enough time to spend sitting around all day spoofing like he does?
US Patriot
Yes, because only DougJ is allowed to make fun of your brilliant assertions.
For someone with the capacity to type, you hold a very weak grasp on reality.
No one. But if your paranoid delusions allowed for the possibility that multiple people could be typing the multiple posts you read here, I think we could square this away with reality in short order. Sadly, it does no good to speak of rationality when talking to someone in the bowels of a schizophrenic episode. I’m sorry for you, scs. I apologize for making fun of you, the extent of your mental illness wasn’t readily apparent to me at the time.
scs
No DougJ, it’s not the mere fact that you made fun of me that allows me to know it’s you – it’s your writing style as well, which remains relatively constant from character to character, no matter how much you try to hide it.
Maybe you should write a computer program to help you disguise that as well – kind of like a voice disguiser. Could be big bucks in that one.
US Patriot
I am not DougJ. But I realize that arguing with the deranged is a waste of our time, so I will henceforth refrain from doing so.
Did you see that movie “A Beautiful Mind”? That’s what this one reminds me of. scs probably has a CIA agent running around in her head who feeds her these lines. It’s a sad, sad thing, really. I’m very sorry for her.
scs
See this is where you went wrong. USP is supposed to be a moderate, and even-tempered. He would never stoop to such comments. See you got out of character for that one and you gave it away. I think DougJ you definitely have a temper problem in real life, as I can see you can only keep up a chracter for so long before one of your outbursts give it away.
John S.
Were any of them CONGRESSMAN? You know, people who occupy the national spotlight and actually influence policy? No?
Well then SHUT THE FUCK UP. Or kindly refer to Tim’s earlier comment:
I swear scs, you are worse than Darrell. At least he knows he is entirely full of shit. Somehow, you don’t.
scs
Umm yeah. Try most of the leftie Dems jumping on the Karl Rove bandwagon. What are you talking about?
scs
Do they have internet access in prison? That would explain DougJ extraordinary amount of leisure time- and his explosive temper.
Krista
Hitler took his hat off sometimes. Did you know you had so much in common with Hitler, Tim?
DougJ
Treas, keep treas, keep talking, treason talk
Talk about things that are trea-son
Tim F.
scs, you continue to treat leaking state secrets and treason as the same thing. Why is that? One carries a penalty that ranges between losing your security clearance and a moderate prison term while the other carries the death penalty. Quite a difference if you’re a defendant. Sadly, acknowledging that basic disctinction renders your point moot so I don’t see it happening.
BTW, I heard somewhere that the College Republicans were started by DougJ in order to make the GOP look bad. Those biased bake sales were a dead giveaway.
John S.
Here’s a simple request for you, sweetie.
How about you produce EVIDENCE of a single Democrat in congress that accused Karl Rove of treason.
Here’s a Google link to help you get started. What is really funny is that almost all queries with those keywords will produce results of Rove accusing Democrats of treason or being traitors – NOT the other way around.
Anyway, good luck not making yourself look like an ass.
chriskoz
Too late.
US Patriot
Tim F. is obviously DougJ. This is where he gives it away.
scs
First of all, Santorum in the article you linked to, NEVER used the word “treason”. He used the word “traitorous.” YOU are the one who is making the link between what Santorum said and “unfounded accusations of TREASON”. THAT is why I continue to link them- because you did.
Now, I suppose one could link all three words or phrases if one wanted to. For instance, someone who “leaked state secrets” would definitely be “traitorous” if they did it with a malicious intent. And if they are traitorous, then one could argue they committed “treason”. However on the other hand, the words also have different shades of meaning. Someone may be “traitorous”, due to their malicious intent and the repugnant nature of their actions against their country, but their actions may not rise to the legal charge of “treason”.
Since Santorum used the word “traitorous” he used it in the sense of an adjective and did not specifically accuse anyone of treason. Only TimF said he did. That’s called twisting the facts. But’s what’s new around here?
scs
You laugh now, but I’ve been proven right everytime. And by the by, take a good hard look at Tom in Texas. He was on my suspect list for a while due to his frequent DougJ real estate appearances. You may be played for a fool on that one.
John S.
scs-
How you coming along on backing up your wild claims?
Oh, I see you just ignored my simple request in favor of chasing a strawman:
Nothing new for you, since you have been chanting that Democrats called Karl Rove a traitor and accused him of treason, though you haven’t provided a scrap of evidence of such a thing and refuse to do so when asked. That isn’t twisting the facts, it’s just plain lying.
So I guess we can add this to the list of examples that show what a willfully ignorant and deceptive partisan you really are.
Krista
You actually have a list? Dude, you really need to find a hobby.
scs
Ummm Krista, remember Scrutator? You are the one who needs to find an IQ.
scs
John S before:
John S After:
Do the two phrases match? (Read my above post and on how TimF linked the two phrases, not me) No? Well then that’s called twisting my words or lying. Sorry I don’t do homework for spoofs, especially nasty spoofs.
scs
TimF, just to make very clear who it was who linked Santorum’s word of “traitourous” to “treason” is the following quote about Santorum from TimF above:
And then he has the nerve above to ask ME me this?
God, Tim F is becoming one of the most dishonest posters I’ve seen. Perhaps he is using his dishonest tactics and love of Latin to cover up for an insecurity about his intelligence. Perhaps he is the “dumb one” at work. If so, I think he needs help. I wish him the best.
scs
But I know Tim F won’t respond to the above, because when he is caught in his lies, he turns tail and hides.
scs
Okay John S, just for kicks, here is one example of a top ranking party Democrat, accussing Karl Rove of “leaking state secrets”, even when he was not indicted.
http://www.democrats.org/a/2006/06/dnc_chairman_ho_28.php
Gosh Dean should be careful of such unfounded accusations of treason, and violent scapegoating!