Balloon Juice might have one of the most permissive comments policies on the internet, which for the most part we take as a matter of pride but which also has earned us a reputation for unpleasantness. Other bipartisan and multipartisan sites have similar problems, for example Joe Gandelman and Andrew at ObWings have weighed in at their respective blogs. Although unapologetically liberal myself I flatly reject any claim that one “side” or the other is primarily responsible for the individual acts of unpleasantness. The root causes may well come from specific decisions made by specific people far up the political food chain, in my opinion that very much is the case, but it disappoints me just as much when people decline to be the bigger man or woman and instead join the other in provocations.
After discussions with readers and between John and myself we have decided to temporarily ban the two commenters about whom we have had the most complaints (by a decent margin in both cases, so I don’t believe that anybody else is in danger) and ask everybody else to make an effort to avoid tit-for-tat baiting of one another. It feels like hell to ask anybody to leave, but John and I agree that we should be able to have a thread like this (yes, the idea was to pick a doozy of a topic) without losing the dialogue to pointless acrimony. I prefer to avoid calling out commenters in a post so we can discuss who and why in the comments so far I am able today. John has promised to join in and add his own comments once work crises let up enough to give him time.
Tim F.
A couple of points to start off:
1) I’ll reiterate I did not make this decision, John did. In the end this is his site and both Tom and I are guests here. My comments above reflect my opinions and what I can divine of John’s, which he will fill in more when he has the chance.
B – As people have noticed, banning only works so well. Most banned commenters eventually find their way back so no doubt these will be leaky as well. Our enthusiasm for enforcing the decision will directly relate to the quality of the general conversation.
Thirdly, it will really annoy me if people assume that partisanship went into this decision. Two of my favorite commenters happen to be unapologetic Republicans, at least one of whom (US Patriot) left after poor treatment from practically everybody. Including Republicans, oddly enough. Reasonable means more to me than party affiliation.
Last, in fact I am a communist board-nazi wingnut terrorist-appeasing Bush-apologist moonbat kook. Imagine our dinner-table conversations growing up.
Slide
As I have been banned for a couple weeks now, I guess I was one of those banned but for what reason I don’t quite know. I am always tough in my comments in refuting information that is wrong I’ll grant you that but I never thought I crossed the line into overly persaonal attacks. My posts usually have links and sources for my argument. I think I contribute to the comments even if you disagree with my positions. I for one did NOT engange in ANY comments regarding John’s friend blogger (who quite frankly I had never read and don’t know much about – can’t even remember his name, Jeff something I think) but yet, I got banned for that thread. Huh? I know I am hard on Cole often times and I ridicule this turning into a beer, wine and cats blog but that was all in good fun, I thought. However I think I may have stuck a neve. The truth usually does. He has always been rather thin skinned. I will refrain from ever mentioning Cole again, even in a Cindy Sheehan thread. I apologize to him if I hurt his rather sensitive feelings.
Richard 23
US Patriot should come back.
S.W. Anderson
Any kid on the playground can taunt and call names. Halfway reasonable adults can disagree in ways such that facts and opinions concerning the topic carry the comments along, not the trading of insults, assigning of motives and such.
From what I’ve seen on the Web, some blogs attract flame warriors, wannabes and people who mostly tune in only long enough to see how outrageous things have gotten. Thugs armed with a keyboard and an attitude can drive out the more temperate commenters. Who knows, professional partisan operatives may be going from one opposition blog to the next, leaving inflammatory posts in an effort to short-circuit intelligent exchanges and convert them into acrimonious sniping.
Standards are important, but they will only work if people understand what they are and why they’re enforced. And, of course, standards have to be enforced consistently and fairly.
It’s good you guys are making the effort.
tBone
I’m sure it’s an enourmous pain in the ass to ride herd on the comments here, and generally I think you guys are more than generous in your policies.
That being said – urging someone to kill themselves (and not just once, but repeatedly) isn’t just “tit-for-tat baiting,” it’s sick. Yeah, ThymeZone was baiting Darrell, but to treat their behavior on that thread as somehow equivalent is bullshit, IMO.
radish
2 cents worth: I’ve been torn about the threads here for a long time. I really like being able to cuss freely, and I like being able to call people names (and get called names) without fear of giving genuine offense. And I particularly like the hysterically funny exchanges that happen now and then as a result of that permissiveness. OTOH it seems like it’s hardly ever worth it to make any real points or try to get into any real conversations (not that I have a lot of time for that nowadays anyway).
Also, I really like that every now and then there’s an effort (I remember one by John a while back, and Tim just did this recently too) to do a crap-resistant thread with attempts at actual debate rules and shit like that. I like those too, even if they aren’t entirely successful.
P.S. Tim, you can either be a wingnut or a moonbat. You can’t be both. Or are you just a wingnut-appeasing moonbat? I guess that would be okay…
D. Mason
Don’t tell me you’ve never seen the rare and mysterious wingbat.
The Other Steve
Let me see if I get this straight…
Given this exchange:
Who would you say was the troll?
I’ll give you the answer a bit later.
Pb
Well add them up, then; I’ve got to say, I won’t be missing scs.
CaseyL
I’ve always favored ignoring trolls to banning them, but that only works if everyone ignores them, and that’s too much to ask.
Considering how many threads degenerated into flamewars, with the instigator posting multiple times in a row, for NO reason whatsoever than to attract attention and infuriate everyone, I am very, very grateful that John decided to ban the one responsible. I’m not pleased that the ban extended to another person, mostly because that person’s sins strike me as reactive rather than instigatory. However, I understand John’s wish to be even-handed – and this is, after all, John’s blog.
I like argument. I like hot and heavy argument. I loathe and despise flamewars, and the people who wage them.
Thanks, John.
Pb
Oh, and…
If possession is 90% of the law, then I’d say that this is actually Tim F.’s blog. And now that I think about it, historically speaking, the #2 poster “about whom we have had the most complaints” might actually *be* John Cole. So Tim, when are you starting your own blog? Maybe I can post over there instead.
Zifnab
Oh please, give me a break. Just cause you don’t like Cole’s disaffection for Cindy Sheehan and his doggied desire to keep this site from turning into DailyKos Lite (for better or worse) doesn’t mean Cole’s posts have been anything less than quality. I’ve seen much worse blogs than this and few better – particularly among conservatives – so cut the dude some slack.
radish
I hear John’s showing up at the Sheehanaholics Anonymous meetings regularly now. I say we cut him some slack.
Well, I’ve only ever seen a picture of a skeleton. I could be wrong, but it looked to me like a plain old libertarian skeleton with antlers glued on…
Pb
Zifnab,
On one or two issues, generally to do with science (and pseudo-science) John Cole has had very good posts. Many of John Cole’s other posts amount to “I saw this item in the news and I don’t know what to think about it”–either uninformed, or afraid to draw the obvious conclusion. And the rest are either total fluff, totally appalling, or are ruined by an inflammatory and gratuitious dig at the other side at the end. Of course, he defends them all equally and vigorously, which leads to the sorts of comments I was talking about. But lately, he’s just been AWOL, which has improved the quality of the posts around here somewhat.
Krista
Honestly? That’s my opinion too. Of course, the proprietors of the blog can do whatever they darned well please. But the treatment strikes me as anything BUT evenhanded, considering two things: 1) the behaviour was in no way equivalent, and 2) ppGaz was banned right away, but Darrell was posting as recently as early this afternoon.
mrmobi
It’s your blog, but my view is “free ppGaz.”
He seems like a principled guy to me, and most of the over-the-top stuff from him is response to Darrell’s extremely nasty bait-and-smear techniques. I’ve seen many threads here destroyed by Darrell, I will not miss him.
I mean, come on, Darrell is a “nuke them from orbit” kind of uber-neocon. Does anyone here take his arguments seriously?
D. Mason
I will not defend ppgaz because I know for a fact that his attacks weren’t limited to darrell. Depending on his mood, or the weather, or the time of day(who knows) he could be quick to insult anyone who disagreed with his politics, or even those who didn’t agree vehemently enough. He also provoked more than a few arguments and flamewars. I thought the both of them should have been shown the door some time ago. Still, it seems that he was banned a few days ago and darrells banning was an afterthought. Why is that? Darrel was the most intentionally inflammatory troll that I’ve ever seen here. In addition to using personal attacks as a go-to debate tactic darrell plagerized, lied and de-railed posts like nobodys business. So why is it that in the rivalry between the two darrell seems so much like the favored son?
Pb
Yeah, I agree, Darrell’s behavior in that thread was despicable, and I pointed it out to Tom at the time (who took a total laissez-faire attitude towards it). This is faux balance. It’s obvious who the problem was here, seeing as Darrell makes it his goal in life to piss off *everyone*, whereas ppGaz only really sticks it to Darrell (or, indeed, Darrell-like behavior). I don’t usually take the scorched-earth strategy in that regard, but I have in the past occasionally, and I understand and respect it.
But the fact remains–without ppGaz, Darrell would still be a problem, but without Darrell, ppGaz wouldn’t be one at all. Of course if ppGaz hadn’t been banned as well, then surely the other right-wingers (or perhaps other right-wing sites!) would be whining over ‘liberal bias’–because no doubt ‘both sides’ were at fault, you know. Faux balance. Pathetic.
Pb
D. Mason,
The difference between ppGaz and Darrell is that ppGaz generally had an actual point, a position, and an argument somewhere in there, whereas Darrell was all about slandering and dodging for its own sake. That’s why Darrell would just change the subject, whereas ppGaz would actually keep making his case. It’s a question of honesty.
Richard Bottoms
I believe a link to the Flame Warriors page is in order:
Die Hards
D. Mason
Pb I agree, that’s why I only attributed plagerism, lies and de-railed posts to Darrel. PPgaz did plenty of flaming and insulting though, and he did go over the top often enough. He never made an effort to take the flame wars down a notch. Sometimes he seemed to revel in it. I can’t really blame him either, but the sad fact of life is that giving in to ones base instincts can result in consequences. I think banning them both is fair since they both gleefully participated in the degeneration of the comments section here. I think banning darrell 2 days after ppgaz is kind of queer.
capelza
ppGaz could be a hot headed stubborn jackass, but he was, as been pointed out above, generally contributory to this blog’s comments. Darrell was a thread killer.
Personally I supported John Cole when he banned Slide because he would spend too much of his posting bashing John for things that are dead and gone and even though John was no longer in that “headspace” Slide would continue to beat that dead horse. It was too bad, because I agreed with a lot of Slide’s stances.
If it even matters, Darrell is the reason I have pretty much quit reading and certainly posting here. A thread goes along nicely then Darrell shows up and it’s over.
Tim F.
It took four IPs to ban Darrell. We got them as they came up.
Pb
D. Mason,
As far as I’m concerned, it’s apples and oranges, but maybe that’s just me. If I were banning people based on conduct, I’d first ban anyone who simply couldn’t participate in an honest debate–and ppGaz would not be on that list.
RSA
Raise your hand if you wondered whether you were one of those to be banned. (I didn’t, but then I’m a reasonable guy.)
cd6
How come we never hear about the commentators that don’t get banned?
D. Mason
Fair enough, I retract my criticism.
D. Mason
Pb you’re right it is apples to oranges. I haven’t disagreed with you on any particular point. I’m just saying that there was a percieved problem and those two guys were the most flagrant participants.
F. Authorati
Darrell, the defender of real freedoms has been silenced.
It is only a matter of time before all of us are silenced as our freedoms are stripped away.
VidaLoca
I’d even go so far as to allow at least some dishonest debate because let’s face it, getting agreement on what constitutes “dishonest debate” would take a lot of the fun out of this place and I’d hate to be the person who had to enforce the rules once they were set. So like pornography “you know it when you see it” which may explain why John waited so long on this matter.
That said though, the equivalence model between Darrell and ppGaz doesn’t hold up, in my opinion. ppG can be provocative, partisan, and shrill but I don’t believe he destroyed as many threads as Darrell did.
And the two of them together was about as predictable as a pair of scorpions in a bottle.
I’m with mobi: “free ppGaz”. As for Darrell, and probably unlike the rest of you, I’d free him too — on probation. His behavior is beyond acceptable even under the lassiez-faire model we employ here.
tBone
We’ve turned the corner on Darrell’s IPs. The only ones left are dead-enders.
Perry Como
We’re turning the corner on banned commenters. We are banning commenters over here so we don’t have to ban them over there.
Perry Como
Damn you tBone…
Tim F.
BTW, I really do not mean to suggest that Darrell was ban-dodging or anything like that. Nobody has any reason to know what’s going on until we put something up about it. I apologize for the delay.
Jess
As I said before, Darrell doen’t have the power to derail threads by himself–it takes the cooperation of everyone who responds to him. I’m happy to not have to scroll past his idiocy with my eyes closed anymore, but I hope we’ll all get better about doing our part to maintain a more interesting level of conversation here. I generally liked and agreed with ppgaz, but I’ve gotten into with him myself when he couldn’t restrain himself from bullying attacks on certain people even when they were trying to be reasonable. I like having the chance to hear from people all over the sociopolitical spectrum, and I really objected to ppgaz’s attempts to drown them out. As for Darrell and his ilk, I’m hoping we can learn to ignore them when they get too ridiculous. We don’t have to wrestle with every pig that sticks its snout in the door.
tBone
Not my fault you were too busy stuffing your pie-hole to get your comment in quicker.
Perry Como
I was too busy thinking about some pie in the sky ideas.
Pb
They’re in their last throes. I really am not that concerned about them.
OCSteve
Too right.
I used to spend a fair amount of time on BJ – but after awhile the comments got to be too predictable and too much. I stopped by less and less and rarely waded into the comments.
When you can pretty much predict what any frequent commenter will say on a given topic – why bother anymore.
Darrell – never took him seriously, just skipped those after a while.
ppGaz – many disagreements but in general if I gave respect I got respect. I would say let him back. He can be over the top but he is in no way a troll or a thread-jacker. He has smacked me around more than once BTW…
tBone
FWIW, OCSteve, I always took your posts seriously even when I disagreed, because you (unlike certain other unmentionables) are actually an honest conservative. If there were more like you around here I think the comments section would improve immensely.
OCSteve
Thanks tBone – I’m not sure what an “honest conservative” is these days much less a conservative. Can I have a third choice please?
Anyway – I always like to have my opinions challenged and there is plenty of that here. I think the rhetoric just got to be too much for me after a while. I still stop by a few times a week – but not as much for sure.
cd6
Maybe Darrell can post what happened and clear this up
Oh wait….
teehee
tBone
Sorry, your only other choice is to embrace your Inner Sheehan and become a raving moonbat. :)
Failing that, vote Dem for the next couple of cycles or until sane conservatives retake the GOP.
Krista
You can always just move up here…even our conservatives are pretty liberal by comparison.
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
I think Darrell should’ve been banned, but not ppGAZ. Darrell’s comments are useless, inflammatory, and offensive. Maybe one in ten posts doesn’t contain a phrase like “you kooks” or “dishonest leftist whackjobs”. Furthermore, he’s demonstrated appalling capacity for bigotry in the past- for instance, when he said in one of the Israel-Hezbollah threads that all Arabs are cockroaches, or on one of the Katrina threads where he basically stated that all the Katrina refugees were homeless before the hurricane and were leeching off the state.
Worst of all, Darrell is incapable of owning up to a mistake. When proven factually wrong, or when challenged on an obvious plagiarism, his response is to run away and ignore the situation. Dialogue with Darrell is impossible; like Senator Loki, he only exists for disruption and chaos.
This sort of commentary is not valuable here, or anywhere else. (And if that doesn’t get your goat, please bear in mind that my whole schtick is basically a leftist impersonation of Darrell. Without Darrell I am impossible and unnecessary. Ergo, I will probably stop posting here for a while, unless I have some serious contribution I would like to make.)
ppGAZ can be rude and disruptive, but at least he offers substantive contributions to the conversation. He is also capable of conversing in a non-confrontational manner. Moreover, to the best of my recollection he has never overtly displayed any racial bias or otherwise disparaged large groups of people, like refugees from the worst natural disaster in American history.
Insofar as the specific incident is concerned, I think it’s clear that calling for someone else to kill themselves is one of the worst things you can say online. (Short of threatening to kill them yourself, which is criminal conduct.) I think ppGAZ’s baiting of Darrell pales into insignificance in comparison. I actually think he handled it much better than some of us would have; having lost a few friends to suicide, I would not have been as patient in my replies to Darrell- which is probably more like the reaction he was hoping to receive.
Banning ppGAZ creates a double standard wherein victim is punished alongside transgressor. If they’re going to be banned for this specific incident, only Darrell should be banned. If they’re going to be banned based on the numbers of complaints lodged against them, then there’s a poster or two I’d like to start petition drives against.
Tsulagi
I haven’t been around posting comments for that long and know all the history. So for what my opinion’s worth, my take would be pretty much along that of OCSteve.
The Darrell character seemed almost always to hijack a thread and crap all over it. PpGaz, Thyme, or whatever, all too easily and quickly took his bait and the comments would soar to 300+ with most of being garbage.
I will agree with Krista that Darrell’s suicide comments were way, way over the line. They were flat-out disgusting. My blog, I’d ban his ass forever for that.
The Other Steve
Well, when you are accused of loving osama bin laden because you disagree with torture.
Not much else you can expect from the rhetoric.
So we’re watching another episode of Children of Arbat tonight. Interesting story, about how people who try to work hard and help get accused of treason and sent into exile. All because of a paranoid dictator.
demimondian
The suicide comments touched a raw nerve for me, obviously, at least as they were ever more graphically drawn out. However, if taunting Darrell is a bannable offense, then I’m certainly guilty, too — and should be banned.
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
Me too, obviously. I think half the liberals here, if not 95%, deserve to be banned by that standard.
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
Sorry. “Liberals” = anyone to the left of Darrell
tBone
True. But if mocking Darrell for his inordinate love of pie is wrong, I don’t want to be right. Bring on the bans.
Gold Star for Robot Boy
Of late, my participation here has fallen off to near zero. It’s because I knew if I came to a thread late (50-plus comments or so), matters would’ve already turned into a mud fight with the usual suspects in their usual roles posting their usual posts. Got boring.
chopper
you make a very adulterous point, GSfRB. (well, there are around 50 posts in this thread, right?)
Gold Star for Robot Boy
Does this mean I’m part of the problem? Oh no!
p.lukasiak
as the recipient of some of ppGaz’s nastiest comments, I nevertheless support reinstating him solely because his contributions were usually worthwhile and insightful.
Sure, he descended into flamewarrior mode too often — and, in my case, unjustly ;) — but he usually had more than adequate provocation.
Free ppGaz!!!!
Gold Star for Robot Boy
Ppgaz was one of those usual suspects to whom I earlier referred. He could always be counted on to rise to the bait, and boring mayhem ensued.
Larry
Sorry, a little new here. Everybody seems to know what you guys are talking about … but I don’t.
Darrell is the person I talked to last night about torture, right? He seemed pretty reasonable although we disagreed.
So ….?
The Other Steve
Sometimes there is more strength in walking away.
Larry
So Steve, the controversy is about feats of strenth?
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
Boy, were you wrong.
Stick around. In two weeks, he’ll be back. Try to get to know him a bit. You’ll see what he’s really like.
Larry
Not sure. He said that my comments were sincere.
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
Strength in battle is the means by which all warriors prove themselves worthy men.
It is the way of all great cultures, be they Viking, Zulu, Samurai, Cheyenne, Visigoth, Celt, or the Knights Teutonic.
Darrell fell into dishonor. He confused friend with foe, slaughtering liberal Americans with his rhetorical sword alongside his true foes, the terrorists. He suffered the fate of all traitors, and the judgment of God was rendered.
ppGAZ sought to do the same, but lo, like Ajax of the Achaians whose folly turned to dishonor when he found it was not Odysseus he flayed, but the rams of the Greek sheep-herd, so it was with ppGAZ: those he thought were his foes, his fellow Americans, conservatives, turned out merely to be spoofs. Seeking to redeem his honor, ppGAZ threw himself on his rhetorical sword, and announced that he would accept the doom of banning if the vile traitor Darrell suffered likewise. This request was granted, and both fallen friend and treacherous foe perished alike.
Such are the ways of men, Larry. Such are the tales of heroes.
Demdude
Larry
Go back and look at some older threads in BJ. Read a few exchanges between D and just about anybody. You’ll get the picture.
Anybody have any all time favorites for Larry to view?
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
He also said the following:
Darrell is no friend of yours, friend. He speaks with the twin tongues of a coiled serpent.
Larry
Out of respect for Steve Irwin, I will not respond to that.
Krista
Larry, read the previous thread, about 10 comments down or so, when I quoted the comments that led to Darrell being banned. Anybody who would say something like that, either publicly or privately, is not a very nice human being.
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
That was a stingray, dude.
Steve Irwin would proudly support such a comment. So would Homer. And St. Paul. Conservationists, Christians and Pagans shake hands on the issue of deceitful, talking snakes.
Larry
I stopped in to talk about torture with Darrell, and ….
You all are some interesting folks. I must say.
Is the torture controversy related to this banning business?
Andrei
I’m not sure why this post is not entitled “Oh Happy Day!”
Tsulagi
Ummm…actually I sort of pictured Darrell as a bed-wetting pimple-faced short fat ass in a fringed polyester suit with a helmut and plastic toy pistol. You know, a typical retardocon patriot warrior. But you probably know him better.
Free ppGaz
Larry
I have no idea what just happend to my previous blockquote. I just intended to directly blockquote, I didn’t edit anything.
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
No, Darrell told ppGAZ to shoot himself. It was a pretty fucked up thing to do, if you ask me.
Zifnab
That was hardly the only trigger. Kinda the straw the broke the camel’s back. Honestly, I’m confident Darrell has said worse.
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
Well, if you read The Iliad, there’s always the character of Thersites…
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
True, but not often.
I think his low point was calling all Arabs “cockroaches.” What’s your favorite low point?
Larry
Well, I just shrug off that kind of thing. You can’t take stuff said in a flame war literally. I’m sure he didn’t mean it.
tBone
Gotta be when he called our favorite Canadian a “dishonest fucking bitch.”
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
I’m sure he did, in the context of an ongoing 2-year flame war reminiscent of Homer’s Iliad.
Bitter wrath smoldered like the embers beneath ash, waiting only the addition of the gasoline of controversy to spurt forth again in a 25-foot-high inferno.
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
Oh yeah. There’s that one, too.
And then he tried to defend this conduct by saying, “Well, she called me a fucking coward first, so really SHE’s the one that should be getting in trouble, here!”
Priceless Darrell moment.
Krista
He called Celine Dion that??? How horrible!
Richard 23
After a few dozen threads of the same old schtick your shoulders get sore from constant shrugging and you get tired of being called a dishonest leftist wackjob.
As Darrell would say, reread earlier threads to see how far out he really is.
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
.
It’s who you are.
I own you kooks.
Krista
You know…Darrell reminds me a bit of my sister’s ex. He’s a complete and utter dick, and we’ve spent hours discussing his various offenses (like when he stole my nephew’s birthday money out of the cards.)
We’d be happy without assholes like that around…but they sure do give us a lot to talk about.
JWeidner
Favorite Darrell moment boiled to its essential point:
“Gay men shouldn’t be scoutmasters in the Boy Scouts because they’ll molest the boys.”
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
That’s pretty messed up. But I’m sure if you asked him about it, he’d have a perfectly reasonable explanation.
A. Liberals made him do it. (Just ask Darrell.)
B. He likes pie, and he needed the money to buy some.
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
He was never proven wrong on that one, either.
Show me real evidence that gay scoutmasters won’t molest the boys, turning them into homosexuals… or worse.
I’m still waiting, moonbats.
(The really sad thing is, there’s probably some Bizarro Earth out there somewhere where Darrell is really smart and cool, and he’s a national treasure and Nobel Prize winner. Meanwhile, the rest of us sound like him over there. I want to go to Bizarro Earth and kick my own ass. Then I want to have a beer with Bizarro Darrell.)
Krista
Feh. His excuse was that he was “setting it aside” for him in case they took a trip anywhere. Who the hell expects a 9-year-old to contribute financially to a family vacation? (Which had not even yet been planned.)
Otto Man
It’s just as well that Darrell got tossed. The Senate’s about to go into recess and he won’t have any more Cornyn comments to plagiarize.
Gary Farber
“we should be able to have a thread like this”
A blank page?
DougJ
All three of you — Tim F, John, and Tom in Texas — are pussies. Ban me. Even though I am one of you.
Beej
I said my goodbyes a couple of weeks ago, largely because of the ravings of ppgaz in response to darrell. Darrell, for me, was easy to ignore because he is so obviously ignorant of any political or policy considerations beyond the latest Limbaugh talking points. Ignoring him might, eventually, have driven him away. Unfortunately, ppgaz simply couldn’t do that, and he was very quick to label anyone who disagreed with him as somehow agreeing with darrell, and insulting them accordingly. Even more disturbing, ppgaz often carried otherwise resonable commenters along with him on his rants. Name-calling might be an effective propaganda technique, but it has no place in reasoned discussion, heated or otherwise.
Now that these two are removed, I will be reading this blog again. I generally find John, Tim, and Tom to be interesting, provocative, and reasonable, even when I vehemently disagree with them.
Andrew
Yeah, but it’s the same one where we lost WW2 and are all speaking German.
DougJ
You are a pathetic suck up.
Mr Furious
Late to the party here, but I’ll throw my two cents in.
Darrell was a worthless contributor. Insulting, rude, dishonest, and would basically destroy any thread he came into contact with. I’m not as squeamish as some on the suicide comments, they are just par for the course with Darrell and he’s earned his ban with interest. Good fucking riddance.
ppGaz (Thymezone) would often sink to Darrell’s level, and certainly cold be brusque (I’ve had my tangles with him) but he is genuinely interested in participating in the debate. ppGaz makes a valuable contribution around here and until Darrell shows up and they start dancing, he’s one of the best, most dependable commenters here.
Give ppGaz a little “cool-down” period and then let him back in. Without Darrell, Balloon Juice is much improved. Without ppGaz, there’s something missing…
Mr Furious
I’d like to think that some of the testimony on ppGaz’s behalf in this thread would go towards negating his complaint tally…
I know John’s blog ain’t a democracy, but if anyone’s counting votes…
Darrell = out
ppGaz = reinstate
Do what you will, John, but remember, your readers make the blog.
fwiffo
You know how when you get an ice-cream-headache, then it suddenly goes away, and it feels just wonderful; in fact, you’re actually glad you got the ice-cream-headache because now, having suffered through it, you can fully appreciate how nice it is to not have an ice-cream-headache.
I feel exactly like that right now.
For the record, I won’t miss ppGaz either.
scs
Testing. Am I banned too?
Richard 23
Yes, you are.
scs
Wow. Guess not. Anyway, I don’t know if my public complaints last week about ppgaz had anything to do with this. I feel almost bad. I didn’t want anyone to ban ppgaz necessarily, I just wanted John to tell him not address me, especially when ppgaz addressed me only to call me “sexually ambigous” and “trailer trash” (in a numbered list, mind you) in threads when I didn’t even bother to address him at all. In fact, I tried to mostly avoid him in the last month as an experiment, and it didn’t seem to make a difference, so finally I responded to him again recently.
I just wanted to be able to post in peace without being called (made up) personal insults that had nothing to do with the posts. I mean I don’t mind so much being called an ‘idiot’ on the facts, or being insulted if it is at least tangentially related to some post I made or the topic that was being discussed, but when someone purposefully stalks you in every thread and starts calling you names like trailer trash, even though I don’t take the insult seriously since the guy has never met me, it becomes somewhat threatening that some strange guy would even attempt to try and go after me this way. It crossed the line from a flame war to harassment, and it didn’t show any sign of abating.
I complained about this to John many times in times past, and I don’t know what actions he took about it. I thought the best solution was not to ban ppgaz, since he seemed to get along with other people, but just have him not address me at all. After all everytime he addressed me with his insults, and then I would respond, it would just degenerate into juvenile long chain of insults that had nothing to do with the posts. The best way to prevent this was to have us not address each other at all. I tried to do that unilaterally but ppgaz refused to go along with that, claiming his freedom to “criticise” me whenver he wanted.
Again, John may have said something to him, but it didn’t seem like John put much teeth into it because I noticed no difference from ppgaz at all. So I asked John to ban ppgaz for a week or so everytime he addressed me to get him to realize that John meant it and would not tolerate it. I thought that was a fair compromise as then both of us would get to post here but would save the threads from degenerating. But apparently that never worked out.
So I’m glad John took some action here, but it didn’t need to be this extreme. After all posting here seems to be very important to ppgaz. So I’m okay to post here with ppgaz, as long as he just leaves me alone. He had/has many other people to respond here too and he didn’t need to start with me everytime, especially if he can’t prevent himself from getting personal. But if he can’t abide by that small rule, then I agree he doesn’t belong here.
scs
As to Darrell, I know he could get harsh sometimes but, unlike others, I do think he at least waited till someone picked on him first. Let’s face it, Darrell swam against the stream here and everyone went after him, and they started with some nasty stuff with him. When he was picked on, he turned on people with a full cannon. In a way I almost admired his resilience, even though sometimes it was over the line. But if you treated Darrell with respect, he was very nice to you. That is the difference, and why I think Darrell should be reinstated.
The Disenfranchised Voter
Concerning Darrell…Good riddance to bad rubbish.
What took so long?
Proud Liberal
as someone who has enganged in combat with ppGaz from time to time I can attest to the fact that he can be infuriating. that being said, he ain’t no Darrell. ppGaz was a big contributor thos this blog. He always added information with sources, links etc. Darrell on the other hand would overwhelm a thread with dozens and dozens of attack posts. Anything anyone said against his position was commented on by him in a most nasty way. Again, I have had my disagreements with ppGaz but to suggest that he is in the same category as Darrell is really ludacris.
Tulkinghorn
This can be a test of the broken window theory. If the shrillness level goes down, and substance (however you measure it) goes up, then the banning could be a success. In the alternative, a new pairing of combatative types may come to dominate again.
As for my vote, I found Darrell much more disruptive. PPGAZ just could not ignore him, and as threads were increasingly dominated by this pissing contest my own contributions got more pissy and shrill. The fact that many regulars and irregulars may have thought they were banned when when this was posted is good evidence of how bad it got.
The distinction between Darrell and PPGAZ is the plain, consistent, antisocial bad faith Darrell demonstrated.
Jane Finch
Although I was never a recepient of the wrath of ppGaz, I agree that his contributions were one of the reasons I read comments.
Free pp!
Blue Neponset
So true. If one cannot get to a thread before Darrell shows up then there is really not much point in trying to make an argument because it gets lost in the flames.
I also have to echo the “free ppGaz” sentiment. He did his fair share of flaming but compared to Darrell he is Clarence Darrow.
Andrew
I think the best solution is technological:
Let Darrell think that he is posting, and serve those comments up only to Darrell IPs but no one else!
chopper
that’s not true at all. half the threads i saw his first comment out of the gate would be insulting and degrading. he likes to act like he’s the victim, but he’s not, more often than not (i’d say a large majority of the time) he’s the instigator.
Sam Hutcheson
Of late, my participation here has fallen off to near zero. It’s because I knew if I came to a thread late (50-plus comments or so), matters would’ve already turned into a mud fight with the usual suspects in their usual roles posting their usual posts. Got boring.
What the robot said. Regarding the two banned personas, Darrell was either the world’s most accomplished troll or truly incapable of reason. Either way, his absence will make the comments of this blog readable again. ppGaz seemed to be capable of reason, certainly, but incapable of doing the obvious — ignoring the unreasonable. If that gets him banned, so be it.
This action will give me reason to once again visit this blog regularly. I had more or less given up on it as anything other than “take a quick glance at what John and Tim are linking to.”
Larry
Have to agree about rehabbing pp.
btw – Who the hell is that other Larry?
Pick an untaken name soonest lest we conflate & confuse.
Thank you, and please drive up to the window.
Gold Star for Robot Boy
In debates over immigration, if a poster mentioned some of the anti-immigrant fervor was due to racism, Darrell would immediately get upset over “race baiting.” Never failed.
BrianM
Longime lurker here, one who’d also largely stopped bothering with the comments. I’m ecstatic Darrell’s gone. I used to enjoy ppGaz, but he can’t seem to stop going after people. If it’s not Darrell, it’s scs; if not her, it would be someone else. I wouldn’t mind seeing him back, but only on condition that he talk about issues, not about the commentors.
A conversation is a Commons, as in Tragedy Of, as in Atlantic fishing grounds, as in the negative externalities of air pollution. As someone on the leftish side, ppGaz should be sympathetic to the idea that we can’t all be self-indulgent, that we need to reign ourselves back for the common good – which in this case is Balloon Juice.
over it
I do not post comments here too often. However, I do read on a regular basis and I agree wholeheartedly with the above statement.
If he was banned due to complaints…should he not be reinstated due to complaints about his banning? Looks like, for the most part, it is the general consensus that he should not be tossed out with the bathwater.
Some cliche’ about one’s nose and one’s face and some cutting comes to mind.
Just my (not so) humble opinion.
neil
I’m sure ppGaz knows we all appreciate his valiant sacrifice.
neil
Although after reading the post that was all about how banning is unideological, I was surprised to find that one banning was done in order to balance out the other.
p.lukasiak
114 posts, and no flame war (despite the apparent best efforts of the “other” Larry).
The Darrell ban seems to be working.
Vlad
PPGAZ did not deserve to be blocked.
Mike S
Testing.
Tim F.
Where did you find that? John removed the two posters about whom we have had the most complaints.
Evilbeard
Am I the only one who thinks the “Other Larry” is probably Darrel or someone else’s spoof of a reasonable person? I mean come on, who wants Darrel back but not ppgaz? Seriously, how does one come to that conclusion without having rammed their head into the wall a few dozen times?
Mac Buckets
Hey, with Ppg gone, BJ’s “you’re a spoof” posts are down 82%, BJ’s “you’re a fucking troll” posts are down 73% (and corresponding irony is down 60%), and posts saying that I’m gay are down 100%.
How will we get by without such salient wit?
Sine.Qua.Non
I can not believe you banned ppGaz….really, I can’t. He’s just carmudeony. Set him free~~~~~
(Shoot, Darrel actually adds some bizaree quality to the linking comments…I say, you don’t like it, just ignore it and get over yourself.)
demimondian
Salient? You keep using that word, but I do not think it means what you think it means…
Sine.Qua.Non
Taking back what I said about Darrell> Ban his ass.
p.lukasiak
and posts saying that I’m gay are down 100%.
MacBuckets is gay.
Krista
You walked right into that one, Mac…
fishbane
Gosh, all the kool kids are getting banned. I’f I get banned, can we start a banned band? Think Go-gos, but more generic, plus language play.
Oh, ja, Darrell was insane.
Mac Buckets
Yeah, I had actually just written a post where I said that anybody missing Ppg’s “contributions” had my permission to say “fuck” ten times per post and, since it doesn’t bother me, to call me gay.
Beej
Well, damn, Doug, I guess I’ll just have to show my bona fides by saying something nasty about John Cole.
Hey John, you are obsessed with pussy! So there!
Larry
“no flame war (despite the apparent best efforts of the “other” Larry)”
O for christsake.
I was just trying to keep two posters with the same name straight. Hardly a spoof.
Changing to Dress Left for the duration.
Dress Left
The new me.
A thousand apologies to all for the inconvenience.
Cyrus
I loved the time – at the very end of the “experiment” thread, actually — where he defended the idea that 9/11 changed everything because it showed the oceans don’t protect us. At least, I think he did. Exchanges like that lead me to think that Darrell isn’t a pathological liar, just really, really dumb. (Whether stupid or lying, there’s pretty much no getting around that he had anger management issues, to greatly understate it.)
I wouldn’t say that. The majority of commenters seem to be saying “free ppGaz”, but not all. There are some saying he was a problem too. I have to say, it’s not just Darrell who would set him off. He might not have always started flame wars, but he was happy to escalate them. My vote — assuming this is strictly a matter of consensus, which I don’t, but anyways — is to let him back eventually, on probation or something, but banning him temporarily was the right decision.
Tax Analyst
My 2 Cents…although I drop by to read fairly often I haven’t posted here too much…My first experience in posting on BJ was back last year (foolishly using my real name at the time…yeah, very naive)during a period of hot & heavy Plame-Flaming…I noticed Darrell had linked to a piece he referred to as a “Fact”…that was in “Fact” an OPINION piece…I pointed that out to him in a direct, but as I recall polite manner, asking him if he knew the difference. For my trouble I got called several unflattering names and a “liar” to boot…The names didn’t and don’t really phase me, but being called a liar for pointing out HIS dishonesty really burned my drawers and I countered back…trying to refrain from sinking to his level…that I didn’t like being called a liar for pointing out HIS dishonesty…which, as you all probably could have told me from experience, resulted in more uncalled for slurs…Hell, I even pulled HIS original quote in to back up my comment…and still got called a “treasonous lying, left-wing scum-bag” or some such twaddle…So I bid an earlier adieu to this site since I’m just too old to waste my time arguing with dishonest dipwards like Darrell…and then didn’t even look back for a couple months…Almost every time I DID look back what did I see? Darrell queering another thread with the same BS…over & over & over & over &…you get the picture…anyway, it’s John’s thread, I concur re: Darrell…I never tilted with ppgaz, but I noticed he could be a little prickly…toning him down, if possible, might be cool (not sure if that’s really a realistic scenario) but I can’t say I favor his banning…Ooh…looks like I’ve overspent my 2 pennies…
Bill Hicks
Free ppgaz and darrel! Half the fun of this place was the flame wars and although I think darrel was a moron or worse, it was a lot of fun to read the posts. How about, what was the funniest put down/response to darrel?
HyperIon
slide: i enjoy your posts. substantive and thought-provoking for the most part.
but if you’re banned, then how come i’m reading your comment?
which brings up another question for one of the bloggers here: what prevents the banned individual from choosing a new handle and resuming comments? is it that the IP address has been previously associated with him/her?
just wondering after Tim mentioned that darrell’s banning involved four IP address. i assume this means that he was commenting from multiple computers.
Larry
I’ve added a url to help tell us apart.
Sorry, I suppose I could go by “Lawrence” but I have always hated it.
I think with my url folks will have no problem telling us apart.
slickdpdx
ppGAZ (and his akas) did get personally nasty – but the comments and information, calling everyone a spoof aside, were valuable.
BJ won’t become an echo chamber without Darrell but those who argued with him may regret getting what they wished for. Considering the abuse heaped upon him, I’m only surprised he didn’t crack sooner, especially with ppG as the leader of the “cool kids” egging him and them on.
slickdpdx
To clarify: Thyme Zone was much less nasty than ppG’s earlier incarnations. And ppG’s right wing spoof was funny. I forgot that one’s name.
Cyrus
Er, crack… sooner? Maybe he was normal before I started reading BJ regularly – it’s been a little more than a year, if I remember correctly – but I don’t remember a cracking point. Either he’s always been Darrell, or it was a gradual progression from ferrous cranus to either troglodyte or a long-term troller. Either no change at all, or very little.
I ask because, hey, how often do you get a chance to talk about an annoying person behind their back, but mainly because if there was a cracking point, I’m curious what it was and what he had been like.
BlogReeder
He’s just carmudeony
Sine, that’s your take because you probably tended to agree with a portion of what he said, IMO. So what you didn’t agree with was just ppGaz being cranky. It’s like with Ann Coulter (Not that I would compare…) I agree with some of the things she says so I think the harsher stuff is just for entertainment.
Buck
Whatever happened to Paddy O’Shea?
Temple Stark
This thread is enlightening to the lastest curfuffle.
Both like to stir the shit pot and from what I’ve seen lately (March 2007) neither are worth the hassle. Thymezone has the ability and mental agility to change, however (I think). Darrell does not.