If Bush does shut down interrogations simply because he does not get his way, there should be hell to pay:
I try hard to respect the Office of the President of the United States, but it is truly a miserable wretch of a man who would threaten to disband the CIA interrogation program if he doesn’t get his wish to eviscerate a good deal of Article 3 compliance thereto, as the President threatened at a press conference last week. This hullabaloo about “outrages against personal dignity” versus “shocking the conscience” is a tempest in a teapot. Outrages against personal dignity are like pornography, which is to say, you know it when you see it (sometimes, indeed, they fuse somewhat, like Rumsfeld’s Pentagon authorized tactic at Guantanamo of having female guards rub their breasts in the face of a male detainee, before smearing fake menstrual blood on him, in a particularly noxious use of our military personnel).
***Of course, very little if anything surprises me anymore with this White House. If Bush actually attempts to cynically shut down this program, we must all passionately shout from the rooftops for it to be kept active, of course in a Geneva compliant incarnation. And if he does nevertheless shut it down, because he insists on enshrining a right to torture in American law, via Addingtonian subterfuge, and a terror attack does occur, let him not dare accuse those who fought for the preservation of basic standards of American dignity and morality with the bloodshed. We will not tolerate this cynical demagoguery, and if it comes to it we will have to turn it on him, and argue his disbanding of the program, if anything, was more of a contributing factor.
I am afraid to even look, but I am betting the usual knuckleheads in the blogosphere are cheering this as a ‘courageous stand’ by the President. The modern GOP-always shortsighted, and always looking for what gives the most short-term political advantage with no concerns regarding the actual outcome of Presidential behavior.
Bruce Moomaw
Actually, Limbaugh has already announced that if McCain’s bill passes and any future terrorist attack occurs, he’ll start a campaign explicitly blaming McCain, Warner et al for the attack. See the quote from him in Djerejian’s comments thread: “So, again, we’ve gone from the Geneva Conventions not even applying to terrorists to having them apply to terrorists, to preventing us from interrogating terrorists effectively. This is going to go down as the event that will result in us getting hit again, and if we do, and if McCain, et al, prevail, I can tell you where fingers are going to be pointed on this program: at every senator, Republican or Democrat, who stood in the way here. “
Mike in SLO
It’s even sadder that McCain et al are getting kudos as protecting the Geneva Convenetion and America’s moral standing in the world, but their compromise bill is just a weakend version of the President’s and isets an awful precedent for the nation.
Tsulagi
Sometimes, this guy goes beyond words. Can he be any more of a small-minded, pathetic, spoiled brat asshole?! Stamps his little feet crying if he doesn’t get his way he’s going home with his toys. No doubt the air in the WH is getting a little pungent with his farting all over himself over this one.
jg
Power isn’t a means to an end, it is an end.
kchiker
And yet, the number of Republican Senators supporting Warner/McCain/Graham on the torture issue is
kchiker
And yet, the number of Republican Senators supporting Warner/McCain/Graham on the torture issue is less than 10, is it not?
Therefore, the real questions: 1) Does the amount of time Republicans deserve to spend “in the wilderness” span years, decades, or centuries?
2) Does the answer to this question explain why many Repblicans want an apocalpyse (which triggers a rapture) NOW?
Sojourner
They’re going to be really surprised at how pissed off Jesus is going to be with their pro-war, pro-torture stance! Perhaps they shouldn’t be in such a hurry for the rapture to occur.
Tax Analyst
So I’m picturing Bush in the “afterlife”…strapped to a waterboard…and God’s saying, “George, you and me have to have a little talk…” He just might be there a long time, too.
Andrew
When the fuck is a god damned reportering going to fucking ask:
President Bush, would Jesus waterboard a prisoner?
betamu
This topic induces in me bitterness that our country has been put in this postion, shame that this is MY country that has been and is currently torturing folks, and outrage that a party claiming to have the corner on high moral values is advocating this behavior. God can tell them that is is OK to wage war in Iraq but cannot guide them in determining what behavior constitutes torture. This is willfull ignorance.
DougJ
I agree completely, John. I don’t know why more people haven’t made this point.
Halffasthero
I can never post on here because, frankly, the people here sum up so much better than I am ever able to. This whole torture issue should be a slam dunk no-brainer for pepople who claim to support the troops while going ot of their way not just to make their lives more miserable (repeated tour of duties, junk medical care, loan sharking those in the Guard) but now they make it more dangerous.
This is becoming sick beyond words.
Par R
John, with each passing visit, you appear to have moved closer to falling off the Left side of the political bed. This particular post is particularly inane and downright silly in the view of most veterans and other right-thinking people.
John D.
Speaking as a veteran (of the first Gulf War, no less) let me just say: Fuck you. You assuredly do *not* speak for me.
The US Army trained me in the MOS of 97E — Interrogator. It was an interesting (and enlightening) experience. All of you idiots with a hardon for torture should go through that training.
I’m not going to preach at you on moral grounds. I’m not going to bemoan the destruction of our good name worldwide. I’m going to simply explain it as my instructor did at Ft. Huachuca:
Torture does not work.
Oh, it works in getting people to talk. Incessantly. They’ll tell you whatever you want to hear.
It just won’t be the truth. It will be what you want to hear.
lard lad
Care to, you know, elucidate on your opinion, Par… or are you just here to fling the usual monkey shit?
Tsulagi
What you said.
And Par R, you sure as shit don’t speak for me, and that “most” exists only in your mind.
les
King George: I proudly proclaim that I am the first president in the modern history of the USA who cannot protect and defend the nation and the constitution without systematically and offically violating the constitution, statutes and treaties governing the nation; and if you don’t legitimize my methods, I’ll quit trying!!!
lard lad
Even the KGB only used torture when they knew the answer they wanted in advance, truth or not… obtaining confessions from Party members destined to be purged, or denunciations of same. (Like the famous joke about Stalin and his missing pipe.) If you were accused of a political crime in Russia, you were finished… your guilt or innocence was irrelevant. Torture was the means by which the police got specific answers already decided upon by the higher-ups.
Look at the Maher Ahar case, Par, for fuck’s sake. This guy confessed, under torture, to participating in terrorist training in Afghanistan… only the guy had never been there in his life.
Why do the Bushbots have such a hard-on for this kind of shit? After all, didn’t a sizable chunk of the worthless “intelligence” that greased the skid for the invasion of Iraq come from so-called terrorists who gave it up under torture? Oh, wait… now I get it.
Hmmm… maybe we have more in common with Russia than I thought.
lard lad
It occured to me that not everyone would know the Stalin joke cited above, so here it is.
This kernel of pointed wit was obtained from this article by Vladimir Bukovsky, a Russian who spent 12 hellish years in the Soviet penal system, and has much to say about the “value” of torture. Read it, Par, then let’s hear your defense of Bush and his “courageous stand.”
t. jasper parnell
On the issue of torture’s effectiveness I offer two pieces of evidence. From Jane Mayer, “Junior: The clandestine life of America’s top Al Qaeda source”, The New Yorker, Sept 11, 2006 34-47, 47:
From Lieutenant General John Kimmons, deputy chief of staff for intelligence on the new field manual :
Interrogators
quoted and cited George Packer, The New Yorker, September 18, 2006, 26
Please excuse the typos.
CaseyL
Torture Debate, take 3264?
You know, unless we’re getting illiterates who’ve never read anything about history, there isn’t any “question” about torture to debate. There is no justification for torture. Period.
The wee-brained ghoulies who keep trying to argue otherwise might as well not bother. We know what really motivates them, because in the entire history of humankind it’s the only motivation there’s ever been for torture:
Sadism.
If you approve of torture, you’re enjoy inflicting pain for the sake of inflicting pain. You like it. You like it a lot.
That’s it. There’s nothing else. Got nothin’ to do with war, or politics, or protecting anyone.
If you approve of torture, you’re a sadist.
All those febrile fantasies about ticking time bombs, all that wilful obtuseness about what is and isn’t torture, all those truculent claims about keeping America safe – are lies.
If you approve of torture, you’re a sadist.
Whether you’re the POTUS or the Attorney General, a blogger or a commenter, it doesn’t make a flying fart’s worth of difference.
If you approve of torture, you’re a sadist; a sick fuck of a pseudo-human being with a festering pus pit where your soul ought to be.
jaime
Who are you going to believe, Military Jag officers, soldiers, Generals, and veterans groups or chickenhawk cowards who’s combat experience is buying the Halo 2 expansion pack?
Par R
It is good to hear from a wide swath of the traitorous Left-wing, who claim to have been in the military…that’s laughable beyond words. “Phony” is too polite a word to describe these scum.
aaron
John D:
So when you got trained in interrogation, what methods did you use?
They don’t want Bush to shut down the CIA interrogation process, but you want the process to be impossible or undefinable, to maintain the issue as a political weapon.
Kimmitt
John, could you please ban Par R?
Thank you.
jaime
Don’t be a little McCarthy-lite coward Par R. Let’s see the list in your hands. Be a fucking man and just call individuals flat out traitors instead of “the left”.
The actual military is going to feel the effects of the U.S. condoning torture not you or the other assholes playing war hero with other people’s kids.
The Other Steve
This coming from the guy who thinks Saddam Hussein ran a social club at Abu Ghraib.
aaron
The “actual military” has not been treated by our enemies according to the Geneva convention for almost two generations. Anyone who thinks the treatment captured American troops will get from al Qaeda will vary one iota if we treat our prisoners with kid gloves is hopelessly naive, and ignoring history.
The actual military and possibly American civilians may pay a different price for our interrogators having their hands tied. Playing Noble and Enlightened Person with the lives of others at risk isn’t that much better than playing war hero.
Sojourner
You’re absolutely right. We should look to Al Qaeda for our moral leadership.
aaron
You can make a moral argument, and even make a good case for it. But let’s not pretend the “protect our troops from torture” argument holds one drop of water. Lose that rationale.
Gold Star for Robot Boy
OK, aaron, how about: If an an enemy combatant, of any stripe, thinks he’ll be treated well by his American captors he may give up, right? And if he thinks he’ll be tortured, he’ll fight to the bitter end, right?
So, you’re right – this may not protect our troops from torture. It’ll only protect them from death and maiming in combat.
Tsulagi
Obviously you’ve never served, Par R. But I bet you’ve got plenty of Support the Troops bumper stickers on your car and a ready supply of Purple Heart bandaids to prove you’re no traitor. Right? You’re a brave patriot warrior. Turd Blossom tells you so. He should know.
What’s laughingly pathetic among retardocon chickenshits (I will not associate a hawk with these people) is their attitude toward those serving. “They’re ours! You can’t touch them or say you support them you traitorous people who don’t talk like Hannity and Geraldo!”
Obviously mommy took away their dolls too early. Now that wouldn’t be you would it, Par?
rachel
Well, it works in the movies. Those’re kind of like real life, right?
Pb
You mean 24 isn’t a reality show?
rachel
I don’t agree that sadism’s the only reason; I think there’s also fear.
Pb
Sadism, fear, ignorance, anger, vengeance, hate… why pick just one when you’ve got ’em all!
spoosmith
The fact that the U.S. is even having such a discussion is so absurd it borders on the surreal. McCain was tortured. For years. So I think the guy would have a little more insight than those who never served and never had to go through that kind of hell.
The arguement around “well, they torture our guys, so why can’t we do it?” shows a spectacular lack of common sense. How can the U.S. go into a country to free the people from a tyrant who gases and tortures his people, only to torture suspects they capture? Since torture does not work (to argue otherwise is to ignore what – thousands of years of evidence to the contrary?) why would the administration be openly fighting for right to do it? When do the American people wake up and realize that to the rest of the world, they have become a perversion of their former selves and a very real danger to the stability of the civilized world.
Andrew
Torture aside, the predatory loan sharking issue seems like one of these issues that basically all people can get behind, except for those fuckers (in this case, a Republican fucker in the pocket of the lending industry) who completely lack moral values.
As far as I am concerned, any combat deployed soldier, sailor or airman, should have easy access to 0% loans, and any extant loans including credit cards and even home mortgages should automatically revert to a 0% rate for the length of deployment, plus an additional grace period afterwards.
I would even support a consitutional amendment for this purpose: “No person in the military deployed to a combat zone shall be subject to usury.” I would even be happy with extreme language to the effect that if even the prinicple payment on loans cause any burden or stress on a deployed soldier, then they are waived for the length of deployment or the loaning agency is subject to charges of conspiracy against the United States in war time.
John D.
Hey Par,
I’m not a left-winger, but that comment sure as shit seemed aimed at me. Care to explain my time at DLI, learning Arabic at Unca Sam’s behest? Or my DD214?
See, I don’t lie, Par. I don’t have to. The truth is far too hard for you to deal with as is; I don’t need to embellish to make your head explode.
John D.
Torture. Does. Not. Work.
It’s not a matter of nobility. It’s not a matter of enlightenment. It’s a matter of BEING ABLE TO TRUST THE INFORMATION YOU RECEIVE.
Torture produces garbage. People will say anything to make it stop.
And as far as your Geneva Convention crap, here’s 3 reasons why we should follow it:
A) It’s a treaty signed by Congress that is now the law of the land. We are bound by its provisions EVEN IF the enemy is not a signatory. Hence the “Common Clause” portions of the treaty. And last I checked, we’re still supposedly a nation of laws, not whims.
B) We’re better than them. Seriously. When our country’s soul cannot rise above “well, they do it too!”, we’re lost as a people.
C) We will, at some point, be at war with an actual nation again in the future. THAT war is why we abide the Geneva.
Oh, and what methods did we use? Mainly conversation. You’d be amazed at how much people will tell you, given the right triggers, heard in their native tongue. It’s nothing like books and movies. Which makes sense, since those are fucking FICTION.
Tsulagi
John D,
I hate to ditto, but well said.
Amazing. In one hand you have interrogation techniques proven to work, and in the other hand you have torture proven not to work. And if you take the one proven not to work, that hand will come back to slap you upside the head. But I guess by now we should know it’s a given which one our Brownie “leadership” will choose.
You know, even a dog stubbornly refusing to give up a bone with no meat on it has the common sense to drop it if he sees a fat steak nearby. But not our faux patriot warriors, they follow their top dog Bushy who keeps the bone. They’re smart like that.
For some, how about instead of chasing the example set by Zarqawi and calling yourself superior because you stop short of beheadings we do something else? Use spine, strength, and character to set an example we call our own rather than a cheap imitation of garbage.