I read this, by Donald Gregg, fierce conservative and former advisor to George H.W. Bush:
Why won’t the Bush administration talk bilaterally and substantively with NK, as the Brits (and eventually the US) did with Libya? Because the Bush administration sees diplomacy as something to be engaged in with another country as a reward for that country’s good behavior. They seem not to see diplomacy as a tool to be used with antagonistic countries or parties, that might bring about an improvement in the behaviour of such entities, and a resolution to the issues that trouble us. Thus we do not talk to Iran, Syria, Hizballah or North Korea. We only talk to our friends â a huge mistake.
And I think of this:
“President Bush will be in Rochester, N.Y., for an upcoming event and has called on WIPP for help,” said the memo to New York-area members [of Women Impacting Public Policy], from one of the group’s leaders. “He would like to visit with local workers about their views on Social Security.”
The memo went on to solicit several types of people “who he would like to visit with” ââŹâ including a young worker who “knows that [Social Security] could run out before they retire,” a young couple with children who like “the idea of leaving something behind to the family” and a single parent who believes Bush’s proposal for individual investment accounts “would provide more retirement options and security” than the current system.
The people solicited appeared to represent various arguments that Bush has been making for why Social Security should be overhauled. The memo requested an immediate response, because “we will need to get names to the White House.”
Somehow despite Social Security privatization polling worse than smallpox, the president never found a single audience member who disagreed with him. In fact the president never appears anywhere that an ordinary citizen might criticize him. Magical.
And this:
Mr. Howards, 54, said at a news conference here that he was taking his 8-year-old son to a piano lesson on June 16 at the Beaver Creek Resort about two hours west of Denver when he saw Mr. Cheney at an outdoor mall. Mr. Howards said he approached within two feet of Mr. Cheney and said in a calm voice, âI think your policies in Iraq are reprehensible,â or as the lawsuit itself describes the encounter, âwords to that effect.â
Mr. Howards said he then went on his way. About 10 minutes later, he said, he was walking back through the area when Agent Reichle handcuffed him and said he would be charged with assaulting the vice president. Local police officers, acting on information from the Secret Service, according to the suit, ultimately filed misdemeanor harassment charges that could have resulted in up to a year in jail.
It just seems that we are dealing with very small people who cannot handle the emotional trauma of ordinary disagreement. You are either a fawning supporter or a practical enabler of terrorists. With us or against us. Sad.
Anon
Cue Darrell and Mac shouting, “BDS” in T minus 5…4…3…
ThymeZone
The foolish arrogance and bottomless pit of their stupidity always takes my breath away when new stuff is first revealed. Then later, one has time to mull it over, and then … well, of course that’s how they behave. They’re idiots.
Foobar
The Bush administration has forgotten (or never knew) the saying “keep your friends close but your enemies closer”.
Good thing to see James Baker out there recently on talk shows stating the obvious — that talking to your enemies is not appeasement. You really have to be a complete f*cking moron not to understand that.
DougJ
Ten to one this guy’s got a book coming out.
Edmund Dantes
You missed the more obvious play. The guy has a lawsuit coming out.
Perry Como
The Democrats would be worse.
DougJ
What about all the people who were arrested at Clinton rallies? You think Pelosi won’t help more countries get nuclear weapons?
Punchy
Tim, did you write this in 2002 and just publish it now? Because I’m pretty sure you could have….
Tim F.
Well, I could have written it in 2000. But I never imagined (nobody could have predicted…) that the evidence would pile up to such ridiculous proportions.
ThymeZone
We know how they behave. Now, how are they performing out there in the theater of public opinion?
Yeah, if I were doing that well, I’d stop at nothing to protect myself from criticism, too.
scarshapedstar
Bush has acted like the biggest goddamn pussy in history since day one. Bush, pussy. Freud couldn’t have asked for an easier target to mock, and yet the Democrats weren’t up to it.
W.T.F.
Steve
“We don’t negotiate with evil; we defeat it.” -Dick Cheney
“You make peace with your enemies, not with your friends.” -Yitzhak Rabin
matt
I wonder why things like fake town hall meetings don’t bug Republicans, because it’s not even a political or partisan thing like tax cuts or abortion. It’s just…weird and creepy.
There are so many things these people have done, from the very beginning, that should have sent up giant warning flags to everyone, regardless of party affiliation.
lard lad
Can’t you just picture Cheney turning to a Secret Service agent as Howards walks away and snarling “I want that shithead in a jail cell within the hour”…?
Because I sure can.
Now where’s Darrell to claim “he heard” that Mr. Howards spit on Cheney, kneed him in the groin or bit his leg?
SeesThroughIt
And you are clearly a terrorist enabler, Comrade Tim F. Mohammed al-Hitler.
There was an amazing segment on The Daily Show a few years ago in which Republican spinster and town hall svengali Frank Luntz broke down exactly what is needed for a successful town hall. It was sort of refreshing in its honesty. Check it out
scarshapedstar
I wonder why things like fake town hall meetings donât bug Republicans, because itâs not even a political or partisan thing like tax cuts or abortion. Itâs justâŚweird and creepy.
It’s pretty fucked up, isn’t it? I mean, even when they threatened to blow your brains out, nobody really bought into Stalinism 1.0. And the wingnuts will clap like seals every damn time… for what? Is that $300 check still fresh on their minds?
ThymeZone
For what actually drives them: Hatred of liberals, hatred of process, hatred of intellectual complexity, hatred of ambiguity, hatred of governance. Authority is its own reward.
Bob In Pacifica
I get the feeling that the ruling class is starting to get peeved with Dubya. Like maybe the kid is going to blow the whole thing. Considering that his dad was practically the godson of Allen Dulles, and ended up running the armies of the night himself before he took a lateral move to VP and P, the ham-fisted, spiteful little bully boy of a son doesn’t seem to be able to keep the show going. He’s been alienating all sorts of agencies. Remember when no one even acknowledged the NSA’s existence? Skowcroft has already dropped comments on Dubya, now Gregg. Eventually they’ll get him back into the harness.
The good news is that no one is talking about his brother running for Prez lately.
Dustbin Of History
That trackback is comedy gold. Tim F. as John’s ‘Grima Wormtongue’ and the North Korean problem being Harry Truman’s fault for not winning the Korean War. Hoohahahaha…
Paddy O'Shea
Far be it from me to stray from the topic at hand, but has anyone seen the lead the Dems have over the Goops in the latest CNN poll? 58& to 37%! 21 points!
Even I am stunned.
http://www.cnn.com
chopper
you see that, tim? you’re being made fun of by a tolkein nerd. wow, that’s gotta hurt. i hope you have your ‘mithril armor’ on and can roll a saving throw vs. ’embarassed by a right-wing virgin’.
cd6
Targetting the moral values audience?
fap fap fap fap fap
KC
Republicans in power need to sit back and start thinking rationally again. The only thing is, the last four years have convinced me that this will only happen after they lose an election or two.
Paddy O'Shea
For the Republican Party to start think rationally again would require a whole new batch of Republicans.
Or maybe they could open up a re-education camp for the current batch?
Gitmo would be a good location.
Darrell
Silly, Cheney is too busy counting his ill-gotten Halliburton oil money from Iraq to bother with hecklers.
And out of curiosity, can the Prez or VP order the Secret Service to “get” someone who pisses them off? Seems the SS wouldn’t want to get caught using resources chasing bogus non-threats which might expose those who they are trying to protect.
yet another jeff
Well, that might explain JC’s insomnia…
DougJ
I find it ironic that the very people who are so upset about a protester getting arrested are the same people who supported for Saddam for all those years.
Paddy O'Shea
New Washington Post/ABC News poll has just emerged.
Dems 54% Goop 35%
http://www.washingtonpost.com/
“I am His majesty’s dog at Kew.
Pray tell me sir, whose dog are you?”
Darrell
That comment assumes that it was diplomacy, rather fear of being toppled after seeing the US act in Afghanistan and Iraq, that motivated Khaddafi to agree to the destruction of the Libyan WMD program.
Btw, didn’t Clinton refuse to negotiate with Iran and Hezbollah and Libya too? Or is it noteworthy only when a Republican President refuses direct negotiation with terrorist organizations and terrorist sponsors?
CaseyL
It needs to be said again. It needs to be remembered.
The GOP isn’t going away. And (sorry, John) I’m not sure how quickly it can reconstitute itself into a sane Party. The thieves, sadists, bigots, and nihilists in charge aren’t new faces, after all. They apprenticed in the Nixon Administration, got their first taste of real power in Reagan and Bush I, and were ready to take center stage in Bush II.
Anyone who played a role in the Bush Admin, and in the GOP leadership, has to be treated like a plague carrier; must never be trusted to hold office ever again; must never be allowed to hold even a staff position. It’s going to take at least 30 years to be fully cleansed of them.
As for the wingnuts… watch them carefully. Watch who they support, what policies they support. Remember what happened when they were allowed to come out from their basements and set the agenda. Remember their savagery, their defiant ignorance, their eagerness to be part of the Big Lie campaign. And never, ever listen to them again; never ever give them the time of day again.
That’s the only way to ensure the last six years – actually, the last 14, dating from when the Right declared war on Bill Clinton – don’t happen again.
Otto Man
Careful. That kid could tell his mom on you.
KC
Everyone is getting their hopes up about the GOP’s prospects this election, but the fact is, they could still eke out majorities in both houses. As much as I don’t want to believe it, there are an awful lot of people out there who are still drinking bad water. I bet a lot them will vote, especially if this North Korea thing starts getting bandied about just right.
Redhand
The close encounter Mr. Howard had with the Vice President says it all about Dick Cheney. The son-of-a-bitch can spray a hunting buddy with birdshot, and nothing comes of it. But if a mere citizen has the temerity to voice a negative opinion to this bastard, the citizen gets arrested.
Sickening
DougJ
In my opinion, that was the greatest triumph in the history of American diplomacy/fear-creating. But it’s spelled “Ghaddaffi”.
DougJ
Because
Iraq Iran North Korea Howard Dean Nancy Pelosi Cindy Sheehan Michael Moore Al Qaeda Keith OlbermannQaddaffi is the greatest threat we have ever faced as a nationAndrew
You forgot the gays, Doug.
Perry Como
And Poland.
Steve
Tom Friedman has his taxi drivers, and I have my cabal of center-right coworkers who follow the news but don’t care much about politics, which enables me to use them as the basis of sweeping generalizations about the pulse of the American public.
Talking to them today, I was pretty surprised to find that they really didn’t care much about the North Korea news. Yeah, yeah, whatever, we’ve always known that NK was a bunch of bad guys, we always figured they have nukes, life goes on. So who knows. I have my doubts that Joe and Mary Smith from Anytown, USA are frantically restocking the air raid shelter tonight.
Darrell
I’ll give you the first one.. the rest are too funny.
We abhor intellectual complexity and ambiguity!
ThymeZone
Who knows what you abhor? You can’t answer a simple, direct question.
Steve
Funny you should mention that (I prefer the spelling with a Q, actually). Just today, I saw a link to Ron Suskind’s detailed take on how we got Libya to give up those WMDs.
Short version: It was diplomacy, but the game plan was to negotiate an agreement behind the scenes and use it to send a message that Libya had given in not because of diplomacy, but because it was afraid of being the next military target. Of course, only a rube would fall for this PR scheme, but there’s plenty of rubes out there.
Otto Man
Let’s roll the tape….
“You’re either with us or the terrorists.”
“Evildoers.”
“They hate us for our freedom.”
All very complex and well-considered positions.
Tsulagi
Yep.
While in 20 years they may be selling cheap CD collections on early morning infomercials of Bushâs Greatest Emotional Infant/Stupidest Moments, one I remembered while reading your post was his selection of Harriet Miers.
The most qualified person in the country to be a SCOTUS justice. Apparently due to taking a brown nose backseat to no one for Bush PLUS her ability to make smiley face cards for him telling him he was smart. Too funny. Also watching the Dobsonite base go âHuh?!â Priceless. I really wanted Harriet instead of the second best Scalito.
Darrell
More complex and well-considered than “no blood for oil”
Darrell
you’ve got my bi-partisan agreement on that one. Even if Bush nominated her as a head fake to his ideological opponents, it still stinks.
Krista
What kind of person would play immature bullshit games like that when it comes to nominating someone who has the power to make decisions that could directly affect every single person in your country? I don’t know…maybe I’m weird, but it just seems to me that nominating a SCOTUS justice deserves a bit more serious thought and a bit less game-playing.
Tim F.
Almost thought about responding, but I have a rule about picking on retarded kids. Seriously, at one time you could find almost half-reasonable people in the rightwingosphere. What happened to those guys?
Oh right, that was John Cole and Gregory Djerejian.
Tsulagi
The same kind that tells fart jokes in the Oval Office and sees how loud he can rip one when meeting new aides. Our president, the emotional infant boy turd.
ThymeZone
Wanted, dead or alive.
Mission accomplished.
I am really not that concerned with (Bin Laden).
Cut and Run.
Worthless IOU’s.
Last throes.
Where are those dang WMDs? Heh heh.
Maybe they were moved to another country, Tim.
No nation-building.
Compassionate conservative.
Mushroom cloud.
Axis of evil.
With us or against us.
Couldn’t have anticipated the breach of the levees.
Heckuva job, Brownie.
Defense of Marriage.
My critics are morally confused.
Criticism of my policy is unacceptable thinking.
We never said that Saddam had a hand in 911.
Can’t comment on an ongoing invessssti-gayshun.
We don’t need a 911 commission.
We need a 911 commission.
We don’t need a Homeland Security department.
We need a Homeland Security department.
“Nobody, but nobody, is more reluctant to go to war than President Bush….He does not want to lead the nation to war.”
I have a duty to free people.
Steve
“Want some wood?”
Bombadil
Thanks, TZ
Zifnab
Last I checked, the only thing Republicans give a flip about in a SCOTUS judge is the blind and unrestrained passion in striking down Roe v. Wade, possibly using a large bludgeon or high voltage electricity device.
Of course, with the new Presidential imparitive to drown possible terror targets out of suspected Canadian insurgents, I’m sure any new Supreme Court Justice will be required to have ability to restrain the gag reflex when presented with evidence of military misconduct.
Thomas
Yes, we are dealing with a group of “very small people who cannot handle the emotional trauma of ordinary disagreement.”
They also project other of their own faults on to others.
Tim, do you have any good qualities, or is this one-note all you got?
John D.
Dude, the “I know you are, but what am I?” gambit is *so* 3rd grade.
cd6
“Nobody likes beheadings”
Paddy O'Shea
“Why should I care about North korea?”
In State of Denial, Bob Woodward recounts a conversation between then-Gov. George W. Bush and then-Saudi ambassador to the U.S. Prince Bandar, in which Bush wonders why he should care about North Korea. “I get these briefings on all parts of the world,” Bush said, “and everybody is talking to me about North Korea.”
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/10/09/why-should-i-care-about-north-korea
scarshapedstar
More complex and well-considered than âno blood for oilâ
“Fight ’em in Baghdad instead of Brooklyn” is some deep, deep stuff, I’ll admit.
David Zincavage
Oh, come on, Tim, go ahead and respond. I’m at your service.
Tolkien references were actually really popular back when I was in college in the 1960s.
I only used that reference, because it happened to fit so perfectly, and because I thought it might be _courant_ with the younger set (because of the films).
JDZ
http://www.NeverYetMelted.com
S.W. Anderson
Bush/Cheney don’t do negotiating with hostiles because they’re cynical con men who see others as being cynical con men too. What’s more, Bush and Cheney are intellectually stunted and more than a little cowardly.
It may be just as well that they don’t attempt personal diplomacy. I can see Bush sitting there, at a loss for anything useful to say. I can see Cheney starting the proceedings with foulmouthed insults designed to impress the other side with what a tough guy he is. I can see it all going straight down the one holer from there.
Otto Man
I’m sorry, I must’ve missed the Democrat who used that phrase. I was limiting my choices to the Republican president, but if you want to open the floodgates to all the mouthbreathers in your party, then let’s dance.
Paddy O'Shea
New Gallup Poll chimes in – Dems 59% Goops 36%.
The one drawback to the Foley Scandal is that after the Repuglies
do lose both the House and Senate, they still won’t blame Georgie
Bush.
“Weren’t George Busher’s fault, nope. Sure weren’t. Was thet boy
lovin’ quare what done us in.”
http://www.pollingreport.com/2006.htm
ThymeZone
Just gotta share this with y’all. Play the “authority on terrorism” commercial video at this site.
This is Republican Scarem-goguery at its finest.
Can you believe this guy? Explaining just how scary terrorists are, and telling you that he (Kyl) is gonna get ’em. John Kyl is an expert on terrorism? Then why does he rubber stamp Bush policy, which is pretty well established as the greatest boon to worldwide terrorism in frigging history?
Pederson, the Dem opponent, has closed a 16-point polling deficit to 6 points in the latest report in a Phoenix newspaper. Which is why Kyl is putting on the scary mask and doing the Trick Or Treat Vote for Me or Die routine now.
If you knew just what an empty suit Jon Kyl was, then you’d appreciate the completely phony nature of this commercial. Jon Kyl has never provided “leadership” in his life. He is a beneficiary of the 1994 GOP coup in Congress, running now for his third sockpuppet term.
Steve
If everyone who plays internet poker votes against Kyl, it seems like he’ll lose in a landslide.
scs
I think we’ve done enough talking with our enemies. At a certain point, you have to get rid of your immature illusions that, if you could just explain things well enough to your enemies, they would behave and we would all get along. People have goals and interests above and beyond interesting verbal debate, ie power, and to believe otherwise is how we got into this trouble with NK in the first place, ala Clinton and the rest of the UN.
scs
You know, this reminds me of some similar situations in my personal life. I remember several times debating with some people who were causing me problems. I thought that maybe they just didn’t realize what they were doing was wrong and hurtful and I tried to reason with them to show them what they were doing and how they should change their behavior.
At first, they tried different debate techniques to get out of it. They tried to protest their innocence and justify their behavior, said they just weren’t aware, or tried to blame it on me, and then they tried to use the approach that I was just over-reacting. But I kept at it, calmly, sharpening my debate with every line and pinning down the argument until there was nothing for them to say, the argument was so strong that even they even realized there was nothing left to try and get out of it, and they were caught.
In the few times in my life I broke through that wall, instead of them thanking for me for showing them the errors of their ways, and accomplishing a break through of understanding, their attitudes abruptly changed from a faux helpfulnes to a hardness. When they knew they were caught, they finally admitted that they knew that they were wrong and that they were hurtful. But they said they just didn’t care. They wanted to do what they wanted to do.
I realized there is just no argument in this world that works against that.
skip
>>Thus we do not talk to Iran, Syria, Hizballah or North Korea. We only talk to our friends â a huge mistake.>>
We don’t talk to North Korea for the reasons given, but we don’t talk to Iran, Syria, and Hezzbollah because Israel and its lobby won’t allow it.
Dustbin Of History
While you’re here, could you explain to the rest of the class just how Harry Truman could’ve won in Korea?
Dustbin Of History
Like the Republican Party?
Shabbazz
“Bok Bok!! It’s all Clinton’s fault! Bok Bok!”
What a load of shite! How long must GWB be in office before he actually bares responsibility for his ever-growing-list of bone-headed failures?
GWB could personally drive a bus full of nuns off a cliff and I’d bet dollars to doughnuts that there would still be wing-nuts in here claiming that it was all Clinton’s fault.
John Cole
Now wait just one minute. I thought I was a wholly owned subsidiary of pajamasmedias/hitlerburton/right wing conspiracy. Now you all are claiming I just do Tim’s bidding?
I am soooo confused.
BTW- got a free copy of Brainless today.
lard lad
Well, he could have let Douglas MacArthur off his leash to kick off a full-scale war with China, for starters. That would’ve worked a charm.
Mary
scs is completely correct about diplomacy and canny heads of state are wrong. Because diplomacy is all about coolly and logically making your opponent feel like a fool for being so, so, wrong.
Oy.
Krista
I can’t understand that at all. You’re such a people person!
The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me
scs is right. If we kill all our enemies, we don’t need to keep an eye on them.
That’s why we need to nuke Iran tomorrow, and NK the day after tomorrow. Because if we don’t, the next mushroom cloud may be real.
After that, any other potential enemies will be too frightened to take us on, and we’ll have many more friends in the world. If the moonbats want to play diplomacy games with our buddies, that’s their prerogative.
Andrew
We’ve got to fight the chi-coms over there so we don’t have to fight them here.
The Other Steve
I’m not sure arguing with yourself in the mirror qualifies as a example of diplomacy.
Mike
Yes, SCS, turn that around and you begin to see exactly what Bushco has done…..
John S.
That depends on how many personalities one is arguing with.
The Other Steve
You’re right.
scs, I withdraw my criticism.
Bob In Pacifica
Dhoug J, these guys don’t even use rhegular letters, so how can you khomplain about the spelling?
Tim F.
Sure. You’re an anklebiter who mistakes cheap ad hominem for argument.
Come back any time.
Tim F.
SCS, I didn’t ask you to reconfirm my point.
Pb
As usual, Greenwald nails it.
The Ghost of Santa Claus
You forgot Poland!
Also, “I believe humans and fish can co-exist peaceably.”
Also, “Did you tell her [Helen Thomas] I’m going to kick his [Saddam’s] sorry motherfucking ass all over the Mideast?” I always liked that one, personally. Makes it clear who’s a good guy (me and George) and who’s a bad guy (Saddam, Helen Thomas). These kinds of distinctions saved me a fortune in coal/toy-dispensal marketing research, back when I was still alive and still gave a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut about that crap.
Let me guess- you’re a hostage negotiator in real life, aren’t you?
I kid, I kid, I kid because I’m dead and I’m pretty pissed off about it.
And any of you motherfuckers that think you’re getting anything other than coal and your very own copy of “The Communist Manifesto” from the Canuckistani stand-in Santa this December 25 is in for a very rude awakening.
Ho, ho, ho, bitches.
Punchy
Can I get a fucking English translation please?
râŹnato
râŹnato
let’s try that again…
I didn’t know Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney were upset about a protester getting arrested. Especially since Cheney was the one who had him arrested. Odd, thatâŚ
Thomas
“Youâre an anklebiter who mistakes cheap ad hominem for argument”?
Tim, as I said, don’t you have anything else? Don’t you have someone smart and clever who could write out an argument for you, and then you could just type it up?
If you’re trying to communicate your animus, you’ve done that well enough. But my 18-month old daughter communicates her frustrations equally eloquently. Have you anything else to say? Is it just this crap?
Try starting over, and actually making an argument. You might surprise yourself if you forced yourself to do more thinking and less feeling.
Thomas
renato, how do you know that Cheney had someone arrested? Is there evidence for that charge (outside of your own vivid imagination, that is)?
The Other Steve
Thomas is absolutely correct Tim.
Couldn’t you find a way to blame this all on Clinton?
Think about it.
JoeTx
“You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test.” âTownsend, Tenn., Feb. 21, 2001
“We both use Colgate toothpaste.” âafter a reporter asked what he had in common with British Prime Minister Tony Blair, Camp David, Md., Feb. 23, 2001
“Tribal sovereignty means that; it’s sovereign. I mean, you’re a â you’ve been given sovereignty, and you’re viewed as a sovereign entity. And therefore the relationship between the federal government and tribes is one between sovereign entities.” âWashington, D.C., Aug. 6, 2004
“I’m the commander â see, I don’t need to explain â I do not need to explain why I say things. That’s the interesting thing about being president.” âas quoted in Bob Woodward’s Bush at War
“We need an energy bill that encourages consumption.” âTrenton, N.J., Sept. 23, 2002
“Do you have blacks, too?” âto Brazilian President Fernando Cardoso, Washington, D.C., Nov. 8, 2001
“This foreign policy stuff is a little frustrating.” âas quoted by the New York Daily News, April 23, 2002
“It is white.” âafter being asked by a child in Britain what the White House was like, July 19, 2001
and probably the only truth that has been spouted from piehole..
“I’m the master of low expectations.” âaboard Air Force One, June 4, 2003
Never has there been a more unserious, intellectually shallow human being in the office of the Presidency ever!
Punchy
I’m quite sure you don’t want to start arguing Bush “successes” versus Bush “failures”, nor would you want to start defending Republican’s inaction vis-a-vis Iraq. Something tells me you’re going to lose…badly.
Pb
râŹnato is probably talking about this case, but this isn’t the first time this has happened, either. If it isn’t a policy of Cheney’s to do exactly this, then how else would you plausibly explain it?
Steve
Here’s a news flash for you. Your cheap Internet insults are not any more clever than the other guy’s cheap Internet insults.
Accusing the other guy of resorting to rhetoric rather than argument, at the same time as you accuse him of sounding like your 18-month old daughter, is simply replete with irony.
The simple reality is that if after 6 years of this, if you still haven’t figured out that Bush and Cheney have a problem with processing disagreement, you can scarcely expect someone to repeat the entire case in each and every post, just so you can then say “well, I still disagree.”
ThymeZone
Well, then we are going to need a draft, a couple more Iraq wars running concurrently, and a population that had better get used to being awash in blood, and broke.
In short, a Republican future. A constant round of futile wars, endless national debt, the collapse of the dollar, America a second-rate power behind Europe and China.
And sexual predators running Capitol Hill and hiding behind that fat fuck of a Speaker of the House.
Thomas
Pb, are you saying that Cheney controls local police departments too? Is there anything that the man can’t do? References to the case originally under discussion don’t do anything to demonstrate that the Secret Service acted on Cheney’s orders or did anything other than follow their nonpartisan expert standards.
Steve, we’re making progress if you understand that there’s an equivalence in the arguments. It’s intentional, not ironic. And I don’t think there’s any case to be made that Bush and Cheney have a “problem with processing disagreement.” But if there is, I’d be happy to see someone make it, even in skeleton form, rather than just offer “cheap internet insults.”
Pb
Thomas,
Not directly in this case, although it seems that he did have local police do his dirty work for him, before he ducked out and left them high and dry.
Let’s presume that you’re right here–although I’d love to see you demonstrate how this is an example of “nonpartisan expert standards”. If so, then wouldn’t we be just as likely to find as many instances of cases like this related to other Bush administration officials? And do you think it’s at all likely that the secret service *didn’t* talk to Cheney before they then tracked down and arrested that guy? If Cheney disagreed, couldn’t he have had the charges dropped at some point, and apologized to the guy? Well, they weren’t, and as far as I know he didn’t, so I think it’s pretty clear what Cheney’s opinions in the matter were.
Well, sure, if neither the trail of arrests, nor their failed diplomatic policies, nor their refusal to acknowledge dissenting views, nor their exclusionary tactics used to further that refusal have been enough to convince you, then what would be? Really, there’s no point in arguing the point further–you don’t get it because you don’t want to, you’re practicing that very self-same refusal that you say you don’t get.
demimondian
Hey, Thomas — you’re a cheap anklebiter who uses ad hominem argument in place of reasoned discourse. The purpose of your attacks is clear: to deflect criticism.
In that world, it can’t be that John decided that he was wrong, but rather that some evil cabal of –Jews– –leftists– –Satanic agents– is controlling him. You see, if an honest man question his views, and, after experimenting with other opinions, sticks with them, then it’s strong evidence that his original views were actually wrong.
John had the balls to look at the evidence and ask “Are these guys doing a bad job? Are they are serving their country, or only their party?” He concluded, after thinking about it for a long time, that the answers were “Yes” and “No” respectively. Now, he may be right, or he may be wrong, but arguing that he did it because Tim took control of his mind and seduced him to evil acts is truly disgusting.
demimondian
Hey, what’s the trick to make things strike through? I was trying for
JewsleftistsSataninc agents.Steve
I feel pretty comfortable in concluding that the chance of you acknowledging any merit to the case is approximately zero, considering that after 6 years you simply don’t think there’s any case to be made at all. I mean, I accept that you disagree, but it’s like a “wow” moment from over here.
RSA
Seems in the case in question, the Secret Service arrested the guy ten minutes after he’d left the vicinity of the Vice President. Kinda slow reflexes if the guy was a real threat, don’t ya think?
Sine.Qua.Non
Tim is not a POS, Thomas. Sheesh.
By the by, it’s got to be painful these days to have an Instapundit ad in the sidebar. ~shudder~
Pb
Oh, and here’s a fun little anecdote:
Bob Woodward, unhinged lefty. Fortunately we have Thomas here to tell us how things really are!
Punchy
BINGO. If the guy really did “harrass” the VP, why did they let him walk away? What changed in those 10-15 minutes until he came back, other than Cheney telling his guys to arrest him?
Is this how all VP assult crime works? Commit the crime, go free for 10 minutes, then be arrested, while walking home (i.e., they didn’t go looking for him, he just happened to walk by the police…nice…)?
DougJ
LOL, Thomas. These moonbats think that the White House causes hurricanes — that’s how whacked out they are. The irony is that Saddam actually was able to cause hurricanes and yet they supported him.
Thomas
Pb, is that a yes or a no on Cheney’s control of local police departments? Did he have them do something or not? Answer clearly. I mean, you mean to make a serious charge, don’t you? So make it.
As for the Secret Service: they are nonpartisan, and they are expert in what they do. You impugn the integrity of these public servants. Do I think the Secret Service typically acts without consulting the person they’re protecting? Yes. Do I believe that means the person they’re protecting concurs in their every action? No. And I didn’t believe that when there was a president of another party, and I won’t in the future, absent real evidence.
And I still don’t know what you’re talking about when you refer to a “refusal to acknowledge dissenting views.” Bush talks often about people who disagree with, for example, his foreign policy. He even criticizes them, which would be hard to do if he didn’t acknowledge them. Are you looking for something more than acknowledgment? Is Bush supposed to agree with you?
If you’re looking for a common thread connecting “exclusionary tactics” at Bush administration events and a “trail of arrests”, why not look at those who agree with you? Isn’t it obvious that the common thread is Bush hatred?
demi–I have no idea what you’re talking about. I didn’t mention John, and would never suggest that Tim controls John.
Steve, shouldn’t we keep talking though? Talking solves everything. First, though, as a condition to keeping the engagement going, I’m going to need you to make some concessions.
Thomas
Pb, I get it: It’s a metaphor someone’s using to sell a book! Great. I’m so happy that metaphors happen. They don’t happen often enough, I often say.
Andrew
I’m really going to enjoy when President Hillary starts arresting people like Thomas.
DougJ
It’s far more likely that Hillary will have them beheaded.
The way she did with Vince Foster.
Pb
Yeah, that’s it! You so don’t get it. However, I will say this: better a book than a war.
chopper
exactly. which is why, if the man were actually assaulting the veep, he would have been taken to the ground immediately.
i don’t think so. his argument appears that they were just doing what they were ordered to do. when the VP comes to town, the SS runs the show. local police follow their orders.
given that the SS is about the best law enforcement you can get, the fact that he was arrested 10 minutes after the alleged incident implies that the SS didn’t consider what he did to be an actual threat at the time.
thus, if he was later arrested, it must have been for some other reason. in this case i think its reasonable to assume that cheney, or someone on his direct staff felt that the guy should pay for what he did. after all, this administration is well known for only surrounding themselves with people who blindly agree with their policies. we also know how incensed cheney gets when people tell him his policies are reprehensible, even going so far as to tell someone to ‘go fuck themselves’ on the senate floor.
it wouldn’t have been anyone in the secret service, as they are nonpartisan as you point out.
it might also have been an overzealous sheriff or local law enforcement. that is also possible.
Steve
Ha! Okay, that was good.
Buck
Nah. Now that it is legal she will probably just torture them.
Tsulagi
Jesus, all you lefty vermin bitching about Bush and Cheney. Donât forget Rummy!
Sure, you could whine about Shinseki and other generals shitcanned because they werenât on message, that only emotional and mental midgets would do that, but thatâs old news. Move along.
Donât even think to mention small fry like Lt. Commander Charles Swift now being forced out of the U.S. Navy. Rummy reviewed his case and found him not worthy. A JAG officer who filed a case (Hamdan) that wound up in front of the Supreme Court where he successfully argued the merits.
Now you could argue that he exemplified the spirit of the Constitution, the USMJ code, and what this country stood for pre-9/11. That, along with his commanding officer giving him the highest marks on his fitness reports, would warrant wanting to keep a man like that in service to his country. But you would be wrong. He wasnât on message. You lefties just donât get it.
Câmon, didnât you notice the Spectering/Foleying Congress reaffirmed that by effectively overturning Hamdan. Thereâs no place for that checks and balance shit or a Constitution when a scary man makes your leaders drop their short pants. They need a new country in order to help them pull their pants back up.
Krista
Being told second-hand by the media that there are people out there who disagree with you is not exactly the same thing as actually listening to people who disagree with you, weighing the merits of their arguments, and responding clearly as to why your position is the one that should be implemented.
But he doesn’t ever have to do the latter, due to the fact that at any public appearance, the audience consists solely of Bush supporters, while those who disagree with him are allowed to be nowhere within earshot. He doesn’t have to do that, because any high-ranking officials who disagree with him, or who express concerns about his plans, are marginalized, accused of being unstable, or are attacked in some other personal fashion, without the substance of their arguments ever having been addressed.
His complete lack of tolerance for tough questioning, disagreement, or compromise is more befitting of a tinpot dictator.
ThymeZone
Or a drunk.
Pb
Or a drunk tinpot dictator.
Pharniel
SCS. if you think that diplomatic corps are for rationally discussing disagreements…jesus fuck…..
Diplomatic corps are all about keeping an eye on your enemy. Please dear lord loan some of these people something by machiveli or sun tzu
Tim F.
Call it a proportional response. Someone who wants more consideration from me needs to offer up more than anklebiting ad hominems.
Thomas
Tim, I thought I was making the proportionate response: you offer up the original anklebiting ad hominems, and I respond in kind. Do you do anything else, or is this a one-trick site? Don’t get me wrong–I like the one trick plenty (you infantile POS!).
Tsulagi
LOL Slick pickup moves you got there, Thomas. You try to characterize Tim as a teenage girl rejected by a boy, get all worked up by âemotional infant,â and still wanking it.
Is Tim making you a little horny? Ah, the Foley Republican base shining in all its glory.
Gordon
I’ve often wondered if Bush’s refusal to negotiate is because he’s afraid he’ll get sold (gee, Mahmoud has beautiful eyes like Putin, so here’s a loan package and a personal intro to Lockheed Martin – they’ll make you a great deal).