After a good decade-plus in charge the GOP leadershp has finally cleared out by way of elections (Santorum), shame (Hastert), retirement (Frist) and irrelevance (Bush), leaving the field wide open for the next generation to step up and define a new direction for the GOP.
In a comment on John’s last post I weighed in as follows:
Have to admit that I’m torn between rooting for Cole & co. to take back the GOP and hoping that the Hindrakers push it even farther into unelectable margins. It would be easier for the Democrats if the GOP remained a national joke, but in the end I don’t see that as very good for the country. A governing party always needs a credible opposition or else it gets lazy, complacent and loses the incentive to do its job well.
So as much as I would enjoy seeing Republicans reduced to has-been third-party status, go Cole.
Indeed I would be thrilled if the GOP put up a credible fight for the center. It would be nice to support the occasional Republican again without the concern that they will start their Schiavo, Abramoff and DeLay shit as soon as they got a majority again. If a prominent member of the GOP conscience caucus (e.g. McCain or Chuck Hagel; try not to chuckle at the practical oxymoron) made a play for the leadership I would take that as a good sign. Mitch McConnell remains the presumptive pick in the Senate, although things could be worse:
Even Frist acknowledges McConnell’s experience gives him “a huge advantage” taking on the Senate’s GOP leadership. McConnell, Frist said, has another big strength: His ability to keep a secret in a town known for loose lips. Democrats, too, call McConnell a trustworthy adversary.
“My dealings with McConnell have been very straightforward, and he’s kept his word,” Senate Democratic Whip Dick Durbin of Illinois.
To get a better sense of whether Coles or Hindrakers will set the GOP’s tone look to the leadership fight in the House. Newt Gingrich established the beyond-ugly GOP strategy that became de riguer when greater policymakers like Tom DeLay and Karl Rove took charge. Despite other problems Trent Lott never caught the bitterness bug and most consider Bill Frist an empty suit who does nothing but channel White House instructions, poorly. At least in recent years, when it comes to setting party direction the Senate is captive to the House.
Plenty of folks know more than I do about the House race for minority leadership. Maybe I am overstating the chances of Rep. Mike Pence, but if Poputonian at Digby’s blog has it right then John Cole will not be pleased. From the New York Times:
He supports tax cuts and the war in Iraq. He opposes stem cell research and the Medicare drug plan. He is a master of his movement’s medium, talk radio. Jesus Christ is his personal savior and Ronald Reagan his political idol.
Days after America repudiated the socially conservative theocracy of today’s Republican party the GOP seems ready to choose a leader who wants to push them farther in the wrong direction. While I appreciate the extra seats that this guy will net us Dems in ’08, it would be nice to have a credible opposition party some day. I guess we will wait a little longer.
***Update***
John Boehner thinks he has the votes to be Minority Leader. And Rove thought that Repubs would keep the House. He may be right for all I know, but if I was an elected Republican right now I would feel not very warm towards the leaders who lost my majority.
DougJ
It’s not about a fight for the center. It’s about the party regaining a shred of honesty and decency. Anyone who cares about American must hope that the GOP banishes both the cult members (like Ass Rocket) and the current cult leaders (Rove and Dobson) to the margins.
pie
The GOP’s problem is that it wasn’t conservative enough. The American people let the Dems win one, to send a message that they didn’t like the less conservative tack the RINOs were advocating. Now that the moderates have been de-elected by a newly energized, conservative electorate, we can put our party back on the right course, and really whip the Democrats’ hides in 2008.
And that will be the best thing for America, too. Letting the Democrats retain power would embolden our enemies even more than it already has. Letting the GOP lose this one has helped to lull the terrorists into a false sense of security, so that a new GOP government can come along and really clobber them in January 2009.
Baby Jane
uptown
Until you’re ready to take the GOP back at the local level, the wackos will continue to run the show. None of the current GOP House or Senate members seem willing to stand up for anything different.
Alan
Yeah right Pie, the GOP faithful booted RINOs to put the conservative Pelosi in charge.
What really happened, the swing voters repudiated the GOP due to its hypocrisy, corruption, and vocal loud mouth social conservatives–from Rush Limbaugh on down. Outlawing abortion went down 56% to 44%. Arizona rejected its anti-immigration zealots–even though Hannity visited the border ten friggin times. Barry Goldwater said it first, the GOP had been taken over by kooks. And to these kooks Goldwater is considered a liberal.
LLeo
Alan, Pie is pretending. I foget which name he usually posts under, but he is not new and just trying to feign the right-wing blogosphere point of view.
Alan
Pie channels well. :)
Krista
LLeo, stop being a party pooper.
Darrell
1. Most people support the tax cuts. They weren’t happy about the increased spending
2. Does he oppose all stem cell research? or does he oppose federal funding of stem cell research, which is an entirely reasonable, defensible position
3. Well know LaRouche-ite John Cole thought the Medicare drug plan was a goatf*ck too
4. Don’t a majority of Americans believe Jesus Christ is their personal savior? Or is that some wild LaRouche belief?
5. Are you seriously asserting that holding Ronald Reagan as his political idol is some sort of sign of extremist beliefs? From what I’ve read, I’d say John Cole and most others whom you would characterize as ‘principled’ conservatives and libertarians also similarly think quite highly of Reagan
LLeo
I followed his link. Pie == GOP4ME == “The Asshole Formerly Known as GOP4Me”. Don’t worry he’s just having some fun.
pie
Just keep telling yourself that.
It’ll make it that much easier to clobber you Democrats if you’re complacent in 2008.
Do you like me?
pie
At least we know Darrell likes me, anyway.
matt
The GOP is in a difficult position. They can either make a play for the middle/moderate/centrist/John Cole vote, and lose their base in the process, or they can move harder to their base and lose the middle even more than they already have. Either option is a losing strategy, so I don’t know what they’re going to do.
The Democratic party basically blew the tent wide open. I think they’ll be reaping the rewards for years to come.
LLeo
Darrell, your point are well made, but I believe you should be concerned you are not going to get a real Reganite and instead get a DeLay type (spend inorder to get re-elected).
BTW, point 4 I don’t believe is true. Not all American Christians adhear to the “personal savior” view of Christ. That is more Evangelical or Baptist (not sure which).
Joe1347
Led by Bush, it looks like the current batch of ‘Republicans’ are off to a predictable post midterm election start. Let’s see, Push right wing nutjob Bolton for UN Ambassador. check. Try to make it psuedo-legal to spy on Americans without a court order. check. Push another right wing nutjob Mike Pence into a congressional leadership position. check.
How about getting rid of Cheney and replacing him with a moderate – such as Colin Powell – followed by getting out of Iraq without preconditions – say tomorrow – as a way to immediately reset the Republican agenda to something less looney.
Remember, there’s about twice as many Republican Senators (than Democrats) up for re-election in 2008. Not to mention Hillary being a shoe-in if we’re still in Iraq and Cheney is the ‘face’ of the Republican Party.
Steve
I don’t think Pence is bad for the GOP. I think he could be a good leader.
Perry Como
I think we should start a campaign for Hannity ’08. Smart. Strong.
LLeo
I’d like to point out to disillusioned Republicans that the Democratic Party is in flux. The 60s era pseudo-socialist Democrats are dieing off, literally. I think Rangle and Conyers are over 70 years old. Pro-gun ownership Dems are growing, and that issue is so dead.
We all have to get out of the 60-70s era conception of the parties. Goldwater would vomit at the sight of the Republican party today. I think the Dems are getting back to the JFK slash Moynihan tradition of the Democratic Party. I don’t know any clean way to define this tradition, but I know it is more pragmatic and competence based. Moynihan is why I call myself a Democrat, even though I am pro-gun, in favor of strong National Defense and Inteligence, and think that free-trade is the right way to go even given it’s downsides.
So give the emerging Democratic Party a second look. Ignore the cartoon characterizations.
pie
I agree. I also think two years of Democrat leadership will be all this country can stand.
Enjoy your day while it lasts, moonbats. In 2008, you’ll lose the White House race and the Senate, too. You guys might get to hold on to the House for a couple terms due to gerrymandering, but we’ll wrest that back from you sooner or later.
pie
He’s got my vote. What? Are you trying to say being smart and strong are BAD things?
Darrell
Huh? The common thread among ALL christian religions is the belief that Jesus is their personal savior and that salvation is only possible through Jesus Christ. That is not a belief particular to evangelicals or Baptists. Not sure where you’re coming from there.
Alan
Matt, I think the GOP could drop the social conservative agenda and reach out to the middle on its limited government philosophy. But it’ll take 40 years in the wilderness for the GOP to gain any credibility sell it.
Perry Como
I was suggesting it as Hannity’s campaign slogan:
Hannity ’08. Smart. Strong.
Kind of catchy. Witty, even.
Perry Como
That’s what you think, moonbat. Once Americans get a load of the wreckless Dem policy of lowering taxes on the middle class and raising taxes on the upper class, they’ll throw the bums out. Paris Hilton has alot of pull in the electorate.
Alan
Yeah, maybe the Dems will bring back the luxury tax and stick it to the rich again…it worked great the last time it was tried.
Darrell
It’s a testament to how extreme many on the left are, that they compare those who admire Ronald Reagan and believe Jesus Christ is their savior.. that those beliefs along with a belief in tax cuts would invoke comparisons to LaRouche. Dems did a good job last election of keeping those sort of extremist views bottled up. Now many on the left feel emboldened to tell us how they really feel. I say keep on speaking truth to power!
Pb
The lunatics at Red State have been crazy over Pence for some time–and that alone is more than enough to give me pause.
Perry Como
Americans will really get to see how extreme the Left is when they start looking into the billions of dollars that have disappeared in Iraq. At least the GOP had the good sense to leave that subject alone. Now that the Left has been emboldened by the terrorist loving voters that elected them, it’s time to show how extreme they truly are.
If you support oversight, you support the terrorists!
Darrell
To the contrary, as Lieberman’s candidacy made clear, anyone who dared steer away from the Dem party line on Iraq, is literally shunned from the Dem party. It is a good point though, about Repubs losing credibility on enacting a limited govt agenda.
Alan
Just remember whenever you read Redstate they’re Freepers dressed in a suit and tie and without the mullet.
Perry Como
btw, how long do you think it will take for the out of control DemocRATs to start looking at President Bush’s Christmas card list?
LLeo
On that point I can assure you that your impression (re: “ALL christian religions”) is not correct. The concept of personal salvation by accepting Jesus Christ as your savior is from the 19th century. Catholics specifically repudiate that formulation of salvation (you know confession, Lent, all those Hail Mary’s). Even Protestant reformations don’t accept that fomulation of salvation. Have you ever wondered at the name for Methodists? They believe in salvation thru practicing a Godly life; that is the “Method” in Methodist.
Darrell
Investigations into where those billions went is fair game, and if handled reasonably, will have little opposition from Republicans.
I think it’s a winning issue for Dems though, to equate admiration for Ronald Reagan as LaRouche-ite crazy talk.
VidaLoca
Now Darrell, that’s just not fair. Week in and week out, we’ve whispered in your ears how the left really feels. Do you mean you didn’t tell anyone?
Darrell
That’s news to me that Methodists and Catholics don’t consider salvation to come through personal acceptance of Jesus Christ.
Joe1347
Lunatics at RedState is right on. Go ahead and try posting something moderate more than once. Then say hello to Ban City.
Dream on – Just wait until the electorate gets word of the $160 Billion Iraq Supplemental that Bush is going to try to cram down the moonbats (in Congress) throat. If you think that the American public is pissed at the Republicans now – just wait for the reaction to Bush asking for $160 Billion to pay for another year of the Iraq Fiasco. Never mind the 3000’th dead American milestone that’s rapidly approaching. Even worse (for the Republicans) – Economists are predicting a Recession in 2007 that will certainly get hung around Bush’s neck. What do you think that the combination of lots of dead Americans (that are dying for nothing) along with a $160 Billion price tag combined with a recession will mean for the Republicans in 2008? Hmmm? I’ll take my cup of moonbat juice with a tax increase on Paris Hilton please. I guess that Paris’s poor deprived little dog will just have to settle for a pearl instead of a diamond-studded collar next year.
demimondian
For example, Darrell, my sect (the Episcopal church) strongly repudiates the notion of Christ as a personal savior. Christ as a savior, yes, but not a *personal* savior, at least, not for everyone. Not everyone needs Christ to intervene *as a person* in his or her life. More than that, at least some of us believe that most, if not all, of the “personal interventions” in the modern world are nothing more than self-serving hallucinations.
Also, the particular verse of John which you cite has many interpretations; in context, it almost certainly refers to His being the vessel through which salvation was brought into the world. It need not mean “You’ve got to believe that I am the Savior.”
Even on things which have nothing to do with politics, you should do more investigation before making blanket statements.
Darrell
Well, I thought I knew what I was talking about. Seems United methodists (largest Methodist denomination?) believe the same.
LLeo
Sorry to everyone else here for this dip into theology.
Darrell:
Just consider the somewhat strained question “Can people who have never heard of Jesus Christ enter Heaven?”. One cannot “accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior” if they’ve never heard of him and his works. However, another interpretation of “the only way to the Father is through Me”, is that someone may live a christ-like life and thereby gain God’s Mercy (aka salvation). Some sects accpet this fomulation, others reject it quite vehemently.
BTW, as an aside in the Middle Ages you could buy your way into Heaven by purchasing Indulgences. Needless to say this is not part of modern Roman Catholicism. And really, it was just part of the corruption of the old church. The doctrine of Indulgences still exists, but much more refined and not for sale.
demimondian
Um, Darrell? The Methodist Episcopal Church is not the same thing, at all, as the Episcopal Church. The Episcopal Church, from which the Methodists sprang, puts a particularly broad emphasis on the role of reason in belief.
Darrell, you *really* need to do some research here. You’re not just wrong here — you’re insulting someone else’s religious beliefs.
capelza
Darrell…think of it this way…Catholica and Episcopalians (both of which I am very familiar) don’t experience “the call”, they are not born-again or saved by accepting Jesus as their personal savior. That is not required to go to heaven. Don’t know about the other Protestant faiths, but it is that way in the Southern Baptists…
Anyone ever notice how weird the sentence “I’m pro-life and pro-gun” sounds? I have heard a number of versions fo this today on the talking head shows. The juxtaposition just tweaks me…note: I’m a gun owner, but that as a platform position side by side is just kinda odd.
Darrell
What did I write that in any way could be interpreted as “insulting” someone else’s religious beliefs? I understood that the common thread of all Christianity is the belief that salvation only can come through personal acceptance of Jesus Christ as savior. I believe most people are under the same “controversial” impression. It’s not an insult to say that.. it is/was my sincere belief.
Darrell
I am not Catholic. But I believe you may be mistaken.
Sounds pretty clear to me, but this is my last post about it on this thread.
demimondian
To be fair, I misinterpreted what you wrote, and I thought you were responding to my comment about Episcopal theology by quoting the Methodist catechism. You can see, I hope, why that would be insulting; I’m not Methodist, and that’s one of the points on which they and I disagree.
That said, can you see why putting controversial in scare quotes would be heaping insult on insult? Just because you don’t know something, or just because many others are ill-informed, doesn’t make it false, now does it?
demimondian
Darrell, “allaboutreligion” isn’t a Catholic site, but a site run by an Evangelical group. That’s hardly a good source. And, yes, pretending it is is insulting.
Darrell
Again, what did I write that in any way could be construed as “insulting” someone else’s religion as you have alleged? Much less insult on insult..You’re such a drama queen demi.
ThymeZone
I was raised Episcopalian, did the catechism classes and the whole schmeer. Most of the adults in the house were either Catholic or Episcopalian.
News flash for Darrell: I never hear the expression “Jesus Christ as personal Lord and savior” until I was at least 30 years old. And the people I hung with referred to people who used that phrase as “Jesus freaks,” not “Christians.”
As usual — as always — you have NO FUCKING IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
Go away.
pie
Smart. Strong. Virile.
Did you ever hear of that mistranslated ad campaign in South America from the Perdue corporation? I believe it was in Brazil, but I could be mistaken. The slogan, “It takes a strong man to make a tender chicken” was mistranslated as “It takes a virile man to make a chicken pregnant.” (Still not as funny as the “Pepsi makes you come alive!” campaign which was mistranslated in China as “Pepsi brings your ancestors back from the grave!”)
Paris Hilton won our hearts and minds with the “Simple Life” show, and won other parts of our bodies with her Internet productions.
It is the greatest crime imaginable for the Democrats to harm or hinder Paris Hilton in any way. They shall answer for this heinous deed in fire and blood.
ThymeZone
The problem with you, Darrell, is that you are the embodiment of the expression “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.”
Because selfish “Christians” who want to co-opt religious values have sucked all the oxygen out of public religion in this country, you make the mistake of thinking that’s all there is to Christianity. You haven’t a clue in the world.
It’s typical of you. You get a morsel of information somewhere that fits your preconcieved whack idea of the world, and you generalize that morsel into established fact about the whole universe.
You are so full of shit.
LLeo
Darrell,
There is alot of nuance in that quote from the United Methodist Church. It is stating that “faith in Jesus Christ” “is the only way the Bible gives” ie. the only way specifically stated in the bible. However, the answer also includes “God can save anyone that God chooses to save and we cannot decide whom God will save.”
Now you have to go deeper into the Theology and ask, what constitutes “faith in Jesus Christ”? This stuff gets very peculiar very fast. Further, look up John 3:16 and Act 4:12.
Those quotes are not exactly “accept Jesus Christ as my personal Savior”.
It is an interesting area of Christian Theology. Not everyone answers the questions the same way. Futher, Theologians are smart folk; they write in very precise nuanced terms. It is a interesting issue and I hope (if it interests you) you continue to look into it.
BTW, all cards on the table, I believe that the Gospels are important not merely to document Jesus’ life, but to convey His message. If salvation was merely jump-up-and-down sing Christ’s praise and repeat the words “I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Savior”, then Jesus’ parables and teachings would not matter. They might be interesting, even guiding, but they would not be necessary for salvation. I believe Jesus’ life and teachings are more important than his name or who his father was.
Looking at it from a alien perspective, it takes more to be a Muslim than merely stating “There is no God but God, and Muhammad is his Prophet.” Dispite what head-chopping terrorists say. :)
capelza
Sigh Darrell..fine, I grew up in the church hence I know NOTHING about it..Sister Elizabeth will be so pissed off!
What I was trying to explain to you is that you wont hear a Catholic or an Espicopalian focus on the “Accepting Jesus as my personal saviour”. We do not experience a moment of being “saved”..it is something that we are baptised into from birth on. We are then confirmed, etc.
Pb
It’s amazing how much misinformation there is out there about Christianity and Christian doctrines that’s being spread by self-proclaimed Christians. Actually, it reminds me of Hugh Hewitt’s hilariously bad interview with Andrew Sullivan. You know, the one where Hugh invents a new Christian denomination just for himself!
LLeo
If I could ask everyone to put aside “We hate Darrell” and note that he discussed this issue honestly with only minor hints of snark.
I am getting sorry I brought the issue up. I just think that the “every Chistian believes in salvation thru acceptance of Christ as Savior” is a common misimpression. Clearly, blog comments are not the best place to get into minutae of Christian Theology.
Darrell
No, I don’t belief that, and nothing I’ve written would indicate that’s all I think there is to Christianity, or that I accept your bullshit premise about sucking the oxygen out of religion.
We were discussing a very narrow issue pertaining to Christianity before you decided to bring in “Jesus freaks” and “YOU HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA” crap you are so known for.
Perry Como
First hand experience is no substitute for a few minutes of Googling.
Perry Como
Usenet is the best place ;)
capelza
What do the nuns look like?
Darrell, I do give you credit, you were having a good conversation.
Pb
LLeo,
I wouldn’t go that far, but I guess he was doing well for being Darrell. I’m just not going to waste my time–he’s misinformed yet again, and he can’t admit it, there’s nothing new or different here.
Perhaps, but it’s also false. And at this point, it means that Darrell is either willfully ignorant on this subject, or lying–and as he’ll never admit to the former, apparently he wants us to assume it’s the latter. You just can’t have an honest debate with someone like that.
No, but it’s not impossible–you just need to have at least two parties who are actually interested in having a real discussion about the topic. That’s what you won’t find here, but it’s not an inherent weakness of blogs, per se.
Darrell
I’m sorry, but that quote from the United Methodist church was about as un-nuanced as they come. Here it is again
What is nuanced about it? It was a very clear statement.
You would certainly know better than me what they might focus on. However, my point was, that that the personal belief that Jesus Christ is/was our savior, and that you must believe that he is the savior in order to have salvation, was a central tenet of the Catholic Church, and of all Christian religions.
It is that narrow issue which we are discussing, not undefined catchphrases.
LLeo
Perry,
Actually, when I was in college there was no Mosaic and trn was God’s gift to the Usenet. At that time I did read religious oriented news groups.
Once, in a dorm a girl asked me what the difference between Protestants and Catholics were. I tried to explain in clever terms (girls are so turned on by smart philosophy majors…not). Catholic fellow there got in my face saying that I hated Catholics, he then proceeded to jump me. Thankfully, my rep for being brutally/rudely honest won my other Catholic dorm mates to my interpretation of events.
Darrell
That hasn’t been demonstrated, and I’m open to being corrected, as I have no dog in this fight regarding the beliefs of others. I’m the only one who has provided links to substantiate my impressions, but they were admittedly just a perusal. You claim it’s “false”, but you provide nothing to backup that position.
LLeo
Darrell,
Clearly, there is no nuance, if you fail to notice the nuance. Let me try to put it this way: In plain english “faith in Jesus Christ” is not the same as “accept Jesus as my Savior”; “nessesary” is not the same as “sufficient”; “only way the Bible gives” is not the same as “the only way possible”.
jake
Otherwise known as the Church of the Indecisive MoFo.
But back to Pence (via Digby):
“The duty of the Republican Minority in the 110th Congress is to defeat the liberal agenda of the Democrat Party and become the majority in Congress again. We will only defeat the Democrat agenda by presenting a positive, conservative message in vivid contrast to the big government liberalism of the new Majority.”
So does that mean he’s all right with conservative Dems or are we already back to the Democrats want to feed fetuses to gay couples crappola? Or that we’ll see a whole lot of pointless petty obstructionism just to make a point? I’m all for any one presenting a true conservative message but anyone who is going to spout more Dobsonesque crap should siddown and shaddup, now. However, the fact that he was against Medicare Part D makes me think he might be a true Con. That little nightmare had train wreck avec toxic spill and mass evacuation followed by expensive clean up operation written all over it from the start.
bluemeadow
About “accepting” Christ as your personal saviour: From a Lutheran perspective, its definitely NOT about us accepting Jesus Christ, or God for that matter. On the contrary, its about God accepting US. And that is expressed in the sacrament of baptism, and hence we have infant baptism. Lutheran Christians are really big on the idea of grace, as opposed to works. Grace is more or less defined as a freely given gift we did nothing to deserve. So if another understanding of Christianty talks about us “accepting Christ”, from our perspective that is “work” , or some call it, works rightenousness. And that goes against our idea that we are saved (whatever that means) by God’s grace alone, not anything that we “do” ,which includes as you can see, ‘accepting’ Christ. I think this is a fairly common idea among all the mainline liturgical churches. And thus baptism is a sacrament, rather than a rite like it is in Baptist and evangelical churches. Hope that makes it clearer. Or did I just confuse everyone? Oh, and because we are saved by God’s grace, we then are to lead “Godly lives”.
Pb
Darrell,
One issue–and perhaps the simplest one to tackle–is the phrase personal savior itself–it’s unbiblical, and it’s very much tied to evangelicals:
Pb
jake,
We’ll see, probably. I’m guessing no, yes, and yes… it’s called “playing to the base”, and it’s all they’ve done for quite some time now, really.
grumpy realist
Heh, I’d love to see all those who want to go back to a 1950s white-picket-fence have the guts to go back to the same tax rates…
C’mon guys–if it was good enough for that wonderful period, it’s good enough for the present….
Darrell
That is a mighty fine hair you are splitting with regards to “faith in Jesus Christ” being substantively different from “accept Jesus as my savior” in the context given. Same with “only way the Bible gives” and “only way possible”. I may be misunderstanding what you’re trying to say, but it looks like word games, rather than meaningful difference.
LLeo
Pb,
I think Pence and his folk will speak one way (red meat and radicalisms) to the base and try to be all puppy dog tails when facing the Dread
Pirate RobertsMSM.After all the YouTube exposed incidents, I am starting to think the Inter-tubes thing might have a future. It is going to make speaking to your base in one Voice and to everyone else in another Voice much harder.
Perry Como
:splorf:
I just spit Mountain Dew all over my keyboard. I would turn the pie filter back on, but the unintentional hilarity is too much fun.
LLeo
Darrell,
I’m talking Theology and you give me shit for “hair-splitting”. I assume you are not familliar with the wonders of Acedemic “debate”. Theology is by definition hair-splitting about religion. Philosophy is hair-splitting about EveryThingElse(tm).
Wars have been fought over finer hairs than I’ve split.
(BTW, this post should have a big winking smiley stamped on it).
Bob In Pacifica
What’s the “center”?
I don’t know anyone walking around the places I go who are particularly against socialized medicine.
I don’t know anyone in my neck of the woods who wouldn’t mind the multi-billionaires paying a little more.
“Center” is an interesting concept, but I don’t trust the people who are mostly likely to define where it is. The “center” of American opinion is nowhere near being in Baghdad.
Krista
Like capelza said, in Roman Catholicism, the whole concept of being “saved” is non-existent. So there is actually a large difference. In Roman Catholicism, faith in Christ is paramount. But…there’s really no such thing as being “saved”. You get into Heaven (or not) based solely upon your own actions, and depending upon your genuine contrition for whatever sins you commit during your life. So, if you can’t be “saved”, then there’s no such thing as a “saviour”.
Of course, my recollection of all this might not be 100% accurate, so if there are any other RC’s on here who haven’t since lapsed into complete agnosticism, feel free to correct me.
ThymeZone
Actually, you wrote this, asshole:
Tim F.
You have to be the densest person ever born, or simply unserious, not to recognize that I was talking about the GOP losing its credibility as an opposition party. The question of whether their beliefs are sincerely held or loony/not loony is obviously irrelevant to my point.
jake
Only one thing for that: Outlaw the inter-tubes! Say it is a tool of Satan and watch the fun begin.
capelza
I still want to check out the Evangelical Roman Catholic Presbyterian “church”. Where is it? What do the nuns wear?
How on earth can one be a Calvinist Catholic?
Pb
capelza,
Hugh Hewitt is an intellectually bankrupt fool, but I find it interesting that it extends past politics and into religion as well…
Mark
All I have to say about Sen. McCain is that he completely caved to the Bush administration’s wishes on the Military Comissions Act. Because of that, I’ll never give him my vote for president, no matter who the other candidates are. “None of the Above” as a write-in candidate works much better for me.
capelza
True Pb…but I just like the name alot…very Monty Pythony.
I belong to the Salad Fork Goes on the Outside Episcopal Church. Our nuns make a mean cassarole and we don’t have folk masses.
Bob in Pacifica. You know, I haven’t run into anyone who has a problem with healthcare reform. I think of myself as failry centrist beyond that. Though I am a barking moonbat, so I’m told regularily.
demimondian
I gotta admit, the notion of a Calvinist Catholic is giving me the giggles, too. Think about how much shorter the War of the Spanish Succession would have been!
For my part, I belong to that branch of the Episcopal Church which believes that the only mortal sin is the inability to mix a good dry martini (which, if it were true, would lead to the inevitable conclusion that I anticipate my own damnation, seeing as how I can’t actually mix any kind of martini…but I digress.) We’re just like the Methodists, except that they insist that you use grape juice in place of the vermouth.
Tulkinghorn
Hey – I have heard of the Episcopalian nuns… I think there are a few of them, not just an urban legend.
As far as fundamentalists and religion, they are remarkably ignorant of the finer details. A couple years ago our fine President/Pastor declared marriage to be a sacrament, and that is why gay marriage must not be tolerated. Aside from the logical problems inherent in the statement, since when do Methodists go about declaring marriage to be a sacrament?
I guess it is no surprise that his various intelligence agencies are staffed with people who do not know the distinction between Sunnis and Shia.
demimondian
Darrell, the Episcopal Catechism is in the back of the prayer book. (We have only one at any given time, so you should be able to go into any member church on a Sunday, and look at the book during the service. Most churches are also open on Wednesday evenings or mornings, and, of course, on most Church holidays.) A catechism is kind of like an FAQ, but it’s about God.
Pb
Yes, well, give Bush a break–after all, he doesn’t go to church that much, and not nearly as much as Clinton did, so you can’t expect him to know all the fine points…
capelza
Okay, that cracked me up.
Oh god, the grape juice…
That’s one thing I do love about the Catholic Church and my new home, the Episcopalians…they understand that alcohol is a gift from God!
jake
No indeedy. Just the talking points.
jake – Born Again Buddhist Wiccan. Our nuns look like Pam Anderson (pre-implant)
demimondian
Meanwhile, back on Planet Urp, John Boehner thinks he has the votes to lock up Minority Leader. [pounds head on table]
(What salutation does one use in a letter to the Majority or Minority Leader? “Dear Leader”? Just asking…)
skip
It drives me bonkers. One week we talk of a Republican majority for decades to come. The next week we read of the GOP being reduced to irrelevance for decades to come.
Lot of things played a role this election— NONE played THE key role. The bottom line is that the Democrats have a chance to make this last a while. Will they avail themselves of the opportunity?
Pb
Well, I think it can be summed up rather succinctly, really. The Republicans screwed the pooch. They originally coasted into power with the slimmest of margins, they promised the world (but didn’t deliver), they tried to divide us, and to keep us in the dark and in fear, huddling under our covers… but you can’t just sweep everything under the rug, and eventually the people noticed. So now they’re out, and the Democrats are back in. And now it’s time to see what can actually be done, and it’s time to see what’s under that rug…
Krista
Well, considering the wine and bread, it’s no wonder all the French Canadians are Catholic. If they’d only create some sort of sacrament involving cheese (maybe a nice Gruyere?), I’d consider re-joining the flock.
demimondian
Err..Krista? In my experience, communion wine is typically cheap port prior to being blessed, and communion wafers (the crown achievement of medieval industry, as some right wing pundit put it) have more in common with cardboard than with bread. Under the circumstances, I just don’t think that a *nice* Gruyere is in the cards. Would you settle for an overripe Stilton, perhaps? Maybe a well-aged Limburger?
Pb
Ah, but afterwards! Jesus makes it taste better, so don’t forget the Jeeze…
Krista
demi – all the more reason to bring in some good cheese. Time to upgrade, already! I bet it would increase attendance.
p.lukasiak
well, 91 comments later, and all snark aside….
The GOP Congresscritters are caught in an impossible situation — they need to move to the center, but have an extremist leader who is entirely inflexible — and who happens to be President.
The choice therefore, is between turning Bush into the lamest of lame duck Presidents (which, among other things, is bad for National Security), or maintaining their “Rubber Stamp Republican” credentials and looking like obstructionists when Democrats try to pass bills that have support from a majority of Americans.
Personally, I hope that the GOP hangs with Bush — its important that the President at least appears to have considerable support in Congress, and bottom line is that “two years in the wilderness” isn’t sufficient for the kind of fundamental change that needs to occur in the GOP if its going to become at least a “not insane” party.
ThymeZone
In cheese’s name, Amen.
Krista
TZ: Did you just make yourself laugh again?
Perry Como
I think that’s one of the fears of teh gheys in the church. If you let teh gheys in, next thing you know communion is being served with a 1922 Bermester, chick pea flour and thyme communion wafers topped with a Stilton.
Pb
I guess you would like some cheese with that wine after all…
Krista
Gah, I was just over at RedState, for shits and giggles, and read this little gem:
Evil? Gates of Hell? Demons???
Evidently, someone’s been watching too much Buffy…
Maddux Sports Blog
It should definitely be interesting to see how it all plays out. I’m sure things will stay the same though.
CaseyL
Do any American sects still believe in predestination? The idea that there’s a finite number of people who are “destined” to go the Heaven (144,000, I think) and that everyone else is SOL, no matter how goodly, godly and righteous a life they lead? And even the predestined ones can lose their ticket if they sin. And no one knew if they were among the Elect or not, so everyone had to behave and believe as if they were, just in case.
That struck me as a particularly cruel concept of God to believe in – that the game was rigged from the start, and had nothing to do with an individual’s merits – but then, I find quite a bit of theology to be startlingly cruel.
At the risk of insulting the faithful here, I want to ask about something that has bugged me for most of my life: Why do so many people worship a God who their own theology paints as a cruel trickster? To paraphrase Heinlein, why do people worship in a God behavior they wouldn’t tolerate from their own children?
demimondian
Look, Krista, when they were talking about how Democrat [sic] politicians were objectively pro-terror, it obviously didn’t scare people enough. That’s easy, though; they’ll just paint us as objectively anti-D&D. I’m sure that will work *far* better.
Krista
Just as long as they don’t paint us as objectively anti-Joss Whedon.
‘Cause them’s fightin’ words.
demimondian
Casey — yes, there are certainly still strict Calvinist sects which believe in predestination. I’m sure that there are some which believe the figure from Revelations is literal truth. (Mine isn’t among them, so read what follows with that in mind. I’m sure I’ll get it wrong in some detail, but I’ll get it mostly right.)
The thing to understand about predestination is that it isn’t as hideous a doctrine as it’s usually presented. Calvin didn’t conclude that God sort of sprinkled grace on a few, and threw the others out to burn, but, rather, that God has always known who would accept the gift of grace, and who would not. Grace is still available to all — but God knows who’ll actually use it, and regrets the bad choices that the rest will make. God doesn’t choose who will be saved, and who will burn. Humans still have free will to accept or reject that offer.
More broadly, for any Christian theology to be consistent, evil has to come through the incorrect or inappropriate application of the human will to seek something wrong. Otherwise, God winds up as a cosmic sadist or a dispassionate Norn, not a loving figure who seeks to free us from our own bondage to sin and suffering.
ThymeZone
Gouda you to ask.
Pb
I’ve often wondered this myself. I suppose some people don’t feel that they have a choice in the matter, while others just accept that there’s a different standard of behavior at work, or that they might not understand all that goes into God’s decision-making process.
An easy way to cut right to the heart of it is to ask this question: why doesn’t God follow His own Commandments? Really, where applicable or possible, he’s broken most of them to some degree or another–murder, theft, perhaps most famously adultery. So it seems that He doesn’t think that His own rules apply to Him, and He doesn’t care about setting a good example, either.
jake
ThymeZone has a cheese Fetash.
Zifnab
I think its more along the lines of “Of all the people in the world, only 144000 of them will ever pass muster” rather than “Of all the people in the world, 144000 scored the Ultimate Golden Ticket into Heaven, but if they’re not careful they’ll screw it up.” Much like many religious sects, Calvinists just happen to believe that the 144000 who will make it are all going to be Calvinists, because they’re so pure and holy and well-spoken.
Either way, its the high point of bigotry drapped in religion, because it basically dehumanizes everyone who’s not in the “Elect” as they’re all going to hell anyway, so who cares about’m.
CaseyL
Thank you, demimondian; that is indeed a different and less awful take on predestination than the one usually presented, esp. if one doesn’t believe in the 144,000.
ThymeZone
ThymeZone has a cheese
Fetashfetish.It is for the grater good.
grumpy realist
Anyone who thinks the US would do well as a theocracy hasn’t studied ANY history….hell, I’d almost run away and let the religious crazies have it, if only to sit back and giggle at the consequences:
Day One: Theocracy declared!
Day Two: First religious war declared on the infidels outside the border.
Day Three: First religious war declared on the infidels INSIDE the border
Days Four, Five, Six: schism, schism, schism.
Day Seven: everyone rests.
Next weeks, starts up again, except everyone now fights over which day is the Sabbath….
rachel
“Blessed are the Cheesemakers.”
Kimmitt
The problem with the idea of the sane people taking over the GOP is that the Dixiecrats have to go somewhere. Until Borat becomes a historical document instead of a timely notice, we’ve got to deal with these folks.
pie
A third party alternative. I would like to see them take over the Greens.
It would serve that smug bastard Nader right.
The Other Steve
Is this the theme of Ghostbusters 4?
ChristieS
Darrell said:
Darrell, Lieberman didn’t lose his primary solely because of his stance on Iraq, though that helped. Mostly he lost his primary because he kept going on TV and bashing his party.
Many, many Democrats voted against him because we didn’t think a Democrat should be using Republican talking points against his own freaking party.
How long would you guys have kept a Republican if he had gone on TV and persistently said that our current course needed adjustment and that we were making big mistakes that the President wouldn’t even acknowledge?
Oh, I forgot. You guys primaried out an incumbent Congressman for doing just that. I guess IOKIYAR.
Bottom line, I have no problem with Lieberman being an Independent. As an Independent, he doesn’t represent the Democratic Party. He can say what the hell he wants to, now.
skip
This nugget on George Allen from the Pacific site:
“I should add that I’d met George Allen at the Gold Cup Steeplechase and a number of other events in the N. Virginia area. The first thing you notice is that he tries to loom over you, like some kind of toothy, swaying alpha male on the Nature Channel.
His now much-recounted bullying manner has always been there, hard to miss really; but then perhaps the Red State herd actually fancies having bacca spit on women’s shoes by way of saying howdy and happy trails.”
Bombadil
Topped with a nice bit of crumbled chevre, just to stay with the theme.
John D.
Darrell,
You may be misunderstanding how other faith teach the path to salvation. When you say
you are, wittingly or unwittingly, parroting the line of evangelicals who claim — as an example — that Roman Catholics aren’t Christian.
(I’ll speak from the RC perspective, since I was raised in that faith before leaving the church 20 years ago)
The RCC teaches that faith is a necessary but not sufficient condition to salvation. That means that it’s the *starting* point. The RCC catechism talks strongly of community and our responsibility as moral people to support others within the community — it is one of the graces, Charity. Probably the most common biblical quote on this is:
So no, it is not hairsplitting. You’re simply wrong about how other faiths view this.
ThymeZone
He also lost because of his cozying up to Bush, and more importantly, suggesting in so many words that criticism of the war and the president were not acceptable.
For those things, Joe has lost the support of the Dem base forever, unless he recants, which is not likely.
Catsy
There’s no such thing as watching too much Buffy. Except when it gets in the way of watching Firefly.
Speaking of television, I’m finding that for the first time in quite a few years I’m able to enjoy watching The West Wing without it making me feel bitter about the worthless shitbags who run our country.
Pb
Good news–the FBI apprehended a man suspected in multiple acts of domestic terrrorism! And man does he have problems…
The Other Steve
ChristieS is right.
This past week James Carville has gotten the bashing treatment by Democrats. Why? Because Carville suggested we ought to get rid of Howard Dean at the DNC and replace him with Harold Ford.
Hmm… Harold Ford lost his election.
Howard Dean helped us win back control of house and senate by building party infrastructure around the country.
Hmm, let me think about that one for a while.
Darrell is trying to play a game here, by laying out a world view that Republicans are reasonable while Democrats are extreme. Apparently calling people terrorist lovers, or traitors is a reasonable thing to do, while calling other people incompetent in the fact of evidence supporting this is extreme and shrill.
The Other Steve
Darrell will probably claim the guy is a freedom fighter.
Tulkinghorn
Joe also completely blew off the local party in CT. He would not visit anyone in state, his office would not return constituent phone calls, and he got his mug onto every damn talking-head tv show on a weekly basis. CT Democrats took it ppersonally, which is understandable. The guy was clearly too big for his britches.
Zifnab
… … … IN BED!
I don’t know what you guys are talking about, really. You all remember the tongue-lashing Lieberman gave Bush after the State of the Union Address in ’05. I mean, Bush got right in his face, and he didn’t even back down. They’re even photographs.
Jay
Yeesh, Brown-shirts on the ground abound. Talk about a “no-brainer.” Do you think they’ll “dunk” him? And will we suddenly learn that his real name is Chad Al-Castanaga and he hails from Iran? Stay tuned!
Pb
I don’t know how the FBI tracked him down, but talking about–and advocating–sending letters filled with white powder to various places on a public message board couldn’t have helped. “Someone should find out where he lives and mail him a Ted Kazcinski letter”? What a maroon.