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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Open Thread

Open Thread

by Tim F|  November 16, 20064:18 pm| 92 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads

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We haven’t had one in awhile.

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92Comments

  1. 1.

    Ned Raggett

    November 16, 2006 at 4:19 pm

    So anyone else hitting up the Tower Records clearance sales? They’re down to 40% off now — been handy for holiday shopping, actually!

  2. 2.

    jcricket

    November 16, 2006 at 4:42 pm

    “Scientific Accuracy? What’s that?” say Republicans running HHS.

  3. 3.

    Zifnab

    November 16, 2006 at 4:58 pm

    Eat it!

  4. 4.

    Fledermaus

    November 16, 2006 at 5:17 pm

    This just in: American Conservative Magazine discredits conservatism.

  5. 5.

    jcricket

    November 16, 2006 at 5:19 pm

    Elections have consequences. Hopefully one of them is stopping bullshit like abstinence-only education and harrassment from ‘crisis pregnancy centers’

  6. 6.

    jcricket

    November 16, 2006 at 5:24 pm

    I like this part of the American Conservative article:

    But “conservatism” has no mystical essence. Rather than a magisterium handed down from apostolic times, it is an ideology whose contours are largely arbitrary and accidental.

    By ideology, I mean precisely what Orwell depicted in 1984. I do not mean, of course, that conservatism is totalitarian. Taken as prophecy, 1984 has little merit. Taken as a description of the world we actually live in, however, it is indispensable. 1984 reveals not the horrors of the future but the quotidian realities of ideology in mass democracy. Conservatism exemplifies them all.

    (emphasis added).

    Goes a long way towards why I think John’s not going to find a home with who he thinks of as “conservatives” for a long time. He may not be a “liberal”, but I think he is a “Democrat” (as exemplified by the actual stance of the people elected across the Democratic party, not the Republican caricature of Democrats).

  7. 7.

    jcricket

    November 16, 2006 at 5:26 pm

    … and I’m not surprised that many others have noticed the modern-day conservatives appear nearly indistinguishable from the IngSoc party portrayed in 1984.

  8. 8.

    ThymeZone

    November 16, 2006 at 5:30 pm

    The conservative movement is dead. It was based on the premise that voters would want more and more of less and less government.

    What they really want is better government. The movement didn’t take that into account, and overlooked the possibility that people who didn’t put much stock in the merits of government might not govern very well.

    John Cole, you have a lot of work to do if you want your conservative movement back. You need to invent a conservatism that understands and practices good government, not just cheaper or smaller government.

  9. 9.

    Pooh

    November 16, 2006 at 5:31 pm

    Goes a long way towards why I think John’s not going to find a home with who he thinks of as “conservatives” for a long time. He may not be a “liberal”, but I think he is a “Democrat” (as exemplified by the actual stance of the people elected across the Democratic party, not the Republican caricature of Democrats).

    Hardly an original thought on my part, but the ‘liberal-conservative’ dichotomy described in the political press is still calibrated to a time when the alignment of the parties was about 90 degrees different then they are to day. Republicans used to be ‘traditional-libertarian’ and the Democrats ‘progressive-statist’ but that has shifted more and more with the GOP becoming ‘traditional-statist’ and the dems ‘libertarian-progressive’. The shift isn’t perfect because the Dems don’t even give lip service to small government (but nor are they in favor of government for government’s sake.)

    And for someone under thirty, it’s hard to remember a time when this wasn’t the case.

  10. 10.

    TenguPhule

    November 16, 2006 at 5:33 pm

    To paraphrase: I do not think conservatism means what you think it means anymore.

  11. 11.

    Pooh

    November 16, 2006 at 5:37 pm

    To paraphrase: I do not think conservatism means what you think it means anymore.

    Right, and in my (political) lifetime, it never has.

  12. 12.

    demimondian

    November 16, 2006 at 5:38 pm

    Interestingly, I was thinking of the ideology of CPUSA during the Second World War when I read the American Conservative piece.

  13. 13.

    Jay

    November 16, 2006 at 5:55 pm

    Thanks jcricket, I often think I couldn’t get any angrier at Bush and then I read things like this.

    [Keroack] explained that oxytocin is released during positive social interaction, massage, hugs, “trust” encounters, and sexual intercourse…” “People who have misused their sexual faculty and become bonded to multiple persons will diminish the power of oxytocin to maintain a permanent bond with an individual.”

    First of all, I think he unintentionally stumbled on the pick up line of the century: “Hey baby, wanna go misue our sexual faculties?” I move we use it, a lot. In the spirit of Dan Savage re-defining Santorum.

    Secondly, I get the feeling the good doctor is a miserable son of a bitch who has no friends, never goes out and wonders why his wife goes through so many D-cell batteries. (No wonder Bush picked him.) According to his “theory” hugging, trust (not thrust) encounters and hanging out and having fun all cause depletion of our majikal bonding juices. So to keep from becoming big ol’ whores we need to avoid physical contact with everyone, never trust anyone and above all NEVER have fun in a group setting. I suppose we should just sit in little cells until the minister brings our carefully selected mate. At which point we will be so desperate for any contact we’ll glady accept whatever comes through the door. Well, that would solve the abstinence problem.
    Yeah, that works.
    OK, how do we get rid of this shit heel. He isn’t just stupid, he’s scary.

  14. 14.

    Ryan S.

    November 16, 2006 at 6:00 pm

    This is going too far. I should hope that a court ruled this unconsitutional.

  15. 15.

    jcricket

    November 16, 2006 at 6:15 pm

    Right, and in my (political) lifetime, it never has.

    I would say the same, and echo your comments about the “90 deg shift” between Democrats/liberals and Republicans/conservatives you pointed out. That’s a good way to put it. Personally, I would argue that “libertarian” doesn’t have to mean “small government”. To me “small government” isn’t a status that inherently leads to more liberties (except from the government). There are plenty of ways corporations and local “feudal” systems that can impose their wishes on you without a big government behind them.

    To me a proper “libertarian” government has to balance allowing one to enjoy their own liberties with trying to prevent your infringement on others liberties or the “liberties of society” (i.e. when you pollute a shared lake). It’s neither “small” nor “big”, but “appropriately sized to accomplish those two goals” and “involved in areas where there aren’t sufficient non-governmental forces to accomplish those two goals”. Yes, Libertarians offer platitudes or hypotheticals about “market forces” that would correct things like monopolistic behavior or discrimination in housing & employment – but it’s all ivory tower BS.

    I like the terms “pragmatism”, “doing what works” and “willing to change” as exemplifying the modern Democratic party (at its best).

  16. 16.

    jcricket

    November 16, 2006 at 6:21 pm

    OK, how do we get rid of this shit heel. He isn’t just stupid, he’s scary.

    Well, elections have consequences. And a big consequence of winning the WH twice is getting to fund all sorts of initiatives by shit-heels like this guy. Democrats need to re-take the WH, and keep it, along with Congress, to undo all this un-scientific crap happening at HHS, EPA, NASA & the FDA. Not to mention fixing the idiotically designed Medicare Plan D & simple, economically sound Social Security fixes.

    If, on the other hand, you want America’s scientific, education, health care, and financial systems run by a bunch of anti-scientific, economically ignorant, corporation-beholden idiots – vote Republican.

  17. 17.

    demimondian

    November 16, 2006 at 6:22 pm

    jcricket…what’ youre describing in your second paragraph is a distinction made by one of the great (conservative) writers on American politics. In his _Democracy in America_, Toqueville distinguishes between liberty and freedom, and points out that alothough those things travels together to a point, they are not the same. Jungle law is an instance of complete liberty, but no freedom, and a completely indoctrinated populace is completely free — but could have no liberty.

  18. 18.

    jcricket

    November 16, 2006 at 6:31 pm

    Here’s some actual evidence about why allowing the government to negotiate for drugs, even if it lowers drug prices overall, won’t result in reduced discovery of important therapies down the road.

    Since I actually work in the basic sciences realm, I know of what they speak.

  19. 19.

    jcricket

    November 16, 2006 at 7:34 pm

    What you’re describing in your second paragraph is a distinction made by one of the great (conservative) writers on American politics. In his Democracy in America, Toqueville distinguishes between liberty and freedom, and points out that although those things travels together to a point, they are not the same.

    As with everything I write, someone else has written it more eloquently and succinctly. I should just post what other people say and follow it with a brief word about whether I agree, disagree or think it’s funny. Like this comment from Atrios today:

    I can never keep up with whether the Democrats are intolerant of dissenting views or in disarray over disagreement.

    Heh. Indeedy.

  20. 20.

    demimondian

    November 16, 2006 at 7:50 pm

    jcricket — I find it amusing that you fixed my typos. I’ve always thought of them as one of the unique piquant charms of my postings. What’s a troll who can spell, after all?

  21. 21.

    Wickedpinto

    November 16, 2006 at 7:52 pm

    I don’t dislike either of you Tim, or John, but, well. . . ..

    Where is john’s attitude on the dem’s/nancy’s grotesque, it, isn’t miserable, miserable, can be repaired, but Nancy’s idiocy today was GROTESQUE, anyone who ever thought she should be a leader should be going through seizures.

    Is it Your job Tim, to be the schill? do you exchange?

    “John? you are the anti-bush” (I don’t mind hating bush) ” schill when it’s a republican, I (time) will be the democratic schill”

    really, This was a disgrace, if you think otherwise, you are completely retarded about real strategy and tactics.

  22. 22.

    Steven Donegal

    November 16, 2006 at 8:14 pm

    You people are clueless as to what’s actually important in the world.

    GO BUCKS!! BEAT MICHIGAN!!

  23. 23.

    srv

    November 16, 2006 at 8:30 pm

    jcricket—I find it amusing that you fixed my typos. I’ve always thought of them as one of the unique piquant charms of my postings. What’s a troll who can spell, after all?

    Spoken like a true dyslexic. You don’t probably don’t notice them and then get annoyed when someone fixes them.

  24. 24.

    jcricket

    November 16, 2006 at 8:37 pm

    Spoken like a true dyslexic. You don’t probably don’t notice them and then get annoyed when someone fixes them.

    When typos are outlawed only outlwas wil hvae typoes.

  25. 25.

    jcricket

    November 16, 2006 at 8:40 pm

    jcricket—I find it amusing that you fixed my typos. I’ve always thought of them as one of the unique piquant charms of my postings. What’s a troll who can spell, after all?

    I didn’t fix your typos. The Democratic party fixed your typos. They’re that powerful.

  26. 26.

    demimondian

    November 16, 2006 at 8:45 pm

    The Democratic party fixed your typos. They’re that powerful.

    Wow! Maybe they *will* be able to deliver that p[no|on]y, after all!

  27. 27.

    TenguPhule

    November 16, 2006 at 8:47 pm

    We have always been at peace with Eurasia.

    We have always been at war with Ponies.

  28. 28.

    tBone

    November 16, 2006 at 8:55 pm

    Where is john’s attitude on the dem’s/nancy’s grotesque, it, isn’t miserable, miserable, can be repaired, but Nancy’s idiocy today was GROTESQUE, anyone who ever thought she should be a leader should be going through seizures.

    Were you having a seizure when you wrote this post? Because it sure looks like it.

  29. 29.

    pharniel

    November 16, 2006 at 9:01 pm

    THe only thing that matters is that the bucks get horribly mauled this weekend.
    GO BLUE!

    Oh. And Bush and Co. are cocksucking assholes.

  30. 30.

    Pooh

    November 16, 2006 at 9:33 pm

    I didn’t fix your typos. The Democratic party fixed your typos. They’re that powerful.

    Are the Democrats the new Jack Bauer?

  31. 31.

    ThymeZone

    November 16, 2006 at 9:35 pm

    anyone who ever thought she should be a leader should be going through seizures.

    Uh, no, she managed to make lemonade out of lemons and gracefully watched her guy lose in what was probably a simple democratic process. As Murtha said, he didn’t get the votes.

    I recommend a good colonic cleaning for you. Maybe a warm enema and then a glass of Chardonnay.

  32. 32.

    ThymeZone

    November 16, 2006 at 9:36 pm

    THe only thing that matters is that the bucks get horribly mauled this weekend.
    GO BLUE!

    Beat the Bucks!

    Oh. And Bush and Co. are cocksucking assholes.

    That too.

  33. 33.

    Sojourner

    November 16, 2006 at 9:48 pm

    You people are clueless as to what’s actually important in the world.

    GO BUCKS!! BEAT MICHIGAN!!

    Best post of the day.

  34. 34.

    Pooh

    November 16, 2006 at 9:56 pm

    It’s going to be weird watching the sporting event of the year not giving a flying ratfuck who wins…

  35. 35.

    ThymeZone

    November 16, 2006 at 10:20 pm

    It’s going to be weird watching the sporting event of the year not giving a flying ratfuck who wins…

    It must be fun living in a state where the idea of a sporting event is watching some guy on a dogsled disappear into the forest.

  36. 36.

    pie

    November 16, 2006 at 10:20 pm

    I like me!

  37. 37.

    pie

    November 16, 2006 at 10:28 pm

    Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed how few wingnuts we’ve had around here since the election? Even Darrell’s scaled way back.

    Do you think there’s a connection?

  38. 38.

    ThymeZone

    November 16, 2006 at 10:38 pm

    Do you think there’s a connection?

    God, I hope so.

  39. 39.

    ThymeZone

    November 16, 2006 at 11:04 pm

    GONO WAY THE BUCKS!! BEAT MICHIGAN!!

    Improved.

  40. 40.

    Zifnab

    November 16, 2006 at 11:13 pm

    So OJ Simpson is releasing a new hypothetical thriller “How I (allegedly) killed my ex-wife.” And before you blow all your rage at Simpson for having his cake and eating it too:

    Bill O’Reilly got his falafels in a bunch last night over news that O.J. Simpson will explain precisely how he didn’t-but-might butcher his ex-wife and her friend—on a Fox prime-time special. Said the frequently flabbergasted superpundit:

    “Here’s a man many believe did kill those two Americans, Nicole Brown Simpson being mother of his two children. Yet Simpson is participating in a project that is exploiting the murders. Shamefully, the Fox Broadcasting Unit is set to carry the program, which is simply indefensible, and a low point in American culture. For the record, Fox Broadcasting has nothing to do with the Fox News Channel.”

    I like how he points out that Nicole Simpson and her new hubby were Americans. Because, you know, if they weren’t Americans, who would give a flip?

    You can follow the link for more obvious smackdown refutation, but I thought I’d post the last bit because it was particularly incestuously funtastic.

    Surely, Judith Regan, who will be conducting the interview with O.J. and whose imprint at HarperCollins is publishing the Simpson book, has nothing to do with Fox News Channel, though. Just ask Fox News bloviator Sean Hannity, whose books Regan publishes. Or Roger Ailes himself, who once gave Regan a show—Judith Regan Tonight—on the Fox News Channel.

  41. 41.

    jake

    November 16, 2006 at 11:50 pm

    I like how he points out that Nicole Simpson and her new hubby were Americans. Because, you know, if they weren’t Americans, who would give a flip?

    He’s just mad he didn’t pull that gig. (The interview, not killing his wife. I think.) But isn’t the former Hertz Rent-a-Car spokescreep also an American? Maybe B.O. started to say Caucasians but decided not to go that far.

    I personally am looking forward to John Karr’s novel about how he didn’t kill Jon Benet Ramsey but got to be Attention Whore 2006 while showing off his love for Duran Duran circa 1980.

    and a low point in American culture

    “But not,” he added with a proud smirk “the lowest. My fellow propogandists still have that title wrapped up tight.”

    Sorry, even when shady creatures like O.J. are concerned moral indignation from B.O. is like Kieth Richards rebuking coke addicts.

  42. 42.

    Zifnab

    November 17, 2006 at 12:06 am

    Sorry, even when shady creatures like O.J. are concerned moral indignation from B.O. is like Kieth Richards rebuking coke addicts.

    ‘in an interview recently Keith Richards intimated that kids should not do drugs. Keith Richards, said that kids should not do drugs. Keith, we can’t do any more drugs, because you already fucking did them all. We have to wait until YOU die, then smoke your ashes”

    Sorry, I just read that today and it was too perfect.

  43. 43.

    Andrew

    November 17, 2006 at 1:01 am

    So, if we send Jonah Goldberg, a bag of sulfur, O.J Simpson, and the Ohio State Buckeyes into orbit, we’ll solve global warming?

    Let’s do it ASAP.

  44. 44.

    mclaren

    November 17, 2006 at 1:14 am

    Milton Friedman dead (finally!)

    I’ll dance a little jig in celebration that
    this creep has now departed this vale of
    tears and later tonight I will piss in the
    general direction of his grave. If I could
    urinate and defecate directly on his
    grave that would be ideal, but we can’t
    have everything.
    As an apologist for greed, corruption
    and corporate welfare no one exceeded
    Friedman in crass dishonesty or depraved
    indifference to the bottom 80% of the economic
    pyramid.

    “The thirty years since privatization zealot Milton Friedman praised the torture and execution of political dissidents as “the miracle of Chile” have played host to significant and repeated examples of the inherent inhumanity of the free-market doctrine. Power deregulation has failed in Ontario, England, and Montana as well as California, where silk-tied energy execs were caught on tape yuking it up about the “poor grandmothers” they were stealing from. In Philadelphia, benevolent market forces compelled the city’s for-profit schools to sell off textbooks, computers, lab supplies and musical instruments; and reportedly prompted school CEO Chris Whittle to suggest replacing costly adult staff by extending the school day to include an hour of unpaid child labor. The effects of privatization on society’s most assailable aspects could not have been better surmised than when a South Carolina jury, in describing the brutal torture of a young man by guards at a for-profit prison, found the act to be “repugnant to the conscience of mankind.” The lessons of the American privatization endeavor are clear: market forces always elicit an unacceptable cost when provided the opportunity to victimize those characteristics which make us human. Yet free-market dogmatists and their friends in the current political administration continue to push for expansion into new and ever more intimate territory.”
    http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Oct2004.htm

    Milton Friedman’s debased career, which followed
    a bizarrely antigravitational arc of failure which
    skyrocketed him upward the more flagrantly his
    economic fairytales contradicted observed reality,
    proves that diplomas and high honors don’t convey
    intellectual honesty. As for his Chicago “school” of
    Economics…when its precepts were put into practice
    into Chile, the economy collapsed so rapidly that
    his misbegotten policies had to be abandoned with
    schocking speed. That didn’t prevent Milton Friedman
    from lying his ass off about the entire fiasco, of course:

    “The Chicago Boys [who followed Milton Friedman’s economic prescriptions] began privatizing anything and everything in sight – 212 state-owned utilities and enterprises in all – resulting in steep rises in utility costs, transportation costs and health care costs for ordinary Chileans. The banks were an interesting case. The Chicago Boys convinced Pinochet that freeing the banks from government regulation would attract foreign investment, and in a case of deregulation gone berserk, the general sold off the banks. They fell into the hands of two speculators, Javier Vial and Manuel Cruzsat. These two then promptly used the banks as collateral on loans obtained from foreign sources to buy up local industrial enterprises. Disliquifying these enterprises generated more cash, which Vial and Cruzsat then used for even more leveraged buyouts. It was a classic pyramid scheme.
    “Freed from the heavy hand of bureacracy, business regulation, taxes and public-owned enterprise, the economy took off – straight into a severe recession. The slowdown had the predictable effect on Chile’s industrial sector, resulting in massive layoffs and reduced economic activity. Suddenly, Chile’s large and prosperous middle class found itself facing huge unemployment increases, reduced salaries and rapidly increasing living costs.

    “The economic performance of the Chilean economy after the application of the “shock treatments” was anything but impressive. While there were three short periods of impressive economic growth, they were interspersed with the classic steep, sharp, much lengthier contractions, which simply added to the growing misery of the poor and the former middle class. The later recessions, the last of which synchronized with world-wide recessions, were exacerbated by the liberalization of trade policies, making it more difficult for local industries to compete, either locally or internationally. Add to that the privatization of the banking system, which created widespread problems with credit, especially for the poor, and the stage was set for economic failure. Blood and glass began to litter factory floors throughout the country. Real economic output declined by 19% just in 1982 and 1983. The Chicago Boys, in classic Orwellian doublespeak, declared the results a terrific success, in spite of the remarkably poor metrics.”

    http://www.bidstrup.com/economics.htm

    Nonetheless, Friedman and other corrupt
    sycophants like him continued to hawk their
    churlishly incompetent nostrums as
    alleged “solutions” to contemporary
    problems like inflation — ignoring
    studiously the Himalayan mountain
    of evidence from the real world that
    his crackpot schemes don’t work.

    “Chapter 7, “There is Madness in their Method,” deals with Milton Friedman’s influential 1953 paper “The Methodology of Positive Economics.” In this paper, Friedman argues that assumptions do not matter, and that the only relevant criterion for theory choice is the accuracy of predictions. Going beyond the fact that economists’ predictions leave much to be desired, Keen explains why most assumptions do indeed matter from a philosophical and methodological perspective.”
    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3620/is_200501/ai_n13634844

    Famous for claiming “I would replace
    the Federal Reserve board with a
    computer,” he remained notably
    silent when the single greatest
    application of computerized
    mathematics to economics (The
    Long Term Capital Management
    hedge fund) went bankrupt after
    3 years and nearly destroyed the
    world economy by racking up
    more than 1 trillion (that’s
    TRILLION) dollars in debt by
    a single private company.

    Only the diligent and imaginative
    bending of the world’s financial
    rules by Alan Greenspan allowed
    the world’s financial system to
    survive LTCM’s self-destruction.
    It goes without saying that both
    the Nobel Prize-winning halfwits
    responsible for LTCM’s disastrous
    collapse were devout followers
    of Milton Friedman’s deluded
    superstitions (misnamed “economic
    theories” — they can only be called
    “theories” in the same sense that
    the Unarius flying saucer cult’s
    plywood models of UFOs can be
    called “spacecraft”).
    Friedman’s death will be mourned
    by all CEOs who fly to work in
    helicopters and need asskissing
    academics to dream up plausible-
    sounding sophistries to justify
    their overseas outsourcing of
    American jobs. Meanwhile, the
    remaining 99% of the economy
    (consisting of people who actually
    work for a living) will doubtless
    celebrate Milton Friedman’s death
    by hocking a logey on his photo.

  45. 45.

    lard lad

    November 17, 2006 at 4:46 am

    I don’t dislike either of you Tim, or John, but, well. . . ..

    Where is john’s attitude on the dem’s/nancy’s grotesque, it, isn’t miserable, miserable, can be repaired, but Nancy’s idiocy today was GROTESQUE, anyone who ever thought she should be a leader should be going through seizures.

    Is it Your job Tim, to be the schill? do you exchange?

    “John? you are the anti-bush” (I don’t mind hating bush) ” schill when it’s a republican, I (time) will be the democratic schill”

    really, This was a disgrace, if you think otherwise, you are completely retarded about real strategy and tactics.

    I put on a suit (complete with red tie and lapel flag) and read this stunning bit of free verse at the Berkeley Rhymeslingas Poetry Slam tonight… ended up winning twenty bucks. Thanks, Wickedpinto!

  46. 46.

    The Other Steve

    November 17, 2006 at 8:38 am

    Freed from the heavy hand of bureacracy, business regulation, taxes and public-owned enterprise, the economy took off – straight into a severe recession. The slowdown had the predictable effect on Chile’s industrial sector, resulting in massive layoffs and reduced economic activity. Suddenly, Chile’s large and prosperous middle class found itself facing huge unemployment increases, reduced salaries and rapidly increasing living costs.

    I don’t think that is at all fair.

    There were a few people who made a lot of money in Chile… enough so that they could move to some other country where the economy was better.

    This is good, no?

  47. 47.

    Dave

    November 17, 2006 at 9:20 am

    Talking Point trial balloon alert!

    We have given the Iraqis a republic, and they do not appear able to keep it.

    Krauthammer in today’s WaPo OpEd

    So we waltzed in, fucked the country up, told them to start a democracy and are now surprised and blaming the Iraqis that things didn’t go to Bush’s plan

  48. 48.

    Zifnab

    November 17, 2006 at 9:27 am

    Wow. So. Clearly, someone does not like Milton Friedman. Was he one of the pioneers of “supply side economics”? The old “if you want to spur the economy, give rich people more money” doctrine?

  49. 49.

    The Other Steve

    November 17, 2006 at 9:31 am

    President Bush is a Genius!

    To the Vietnamese people he let them know that Vietnam offers lessons for our struggle in Iraq.

    That is… We’ll succeed, unless we quit.

    Apparently nobody gave him the memo about how we started winning in Vietnam after we got out.

  50. 50.

    ThymeZone

    November 17, 2006 at 10:32 am

    Wikipedia: Friedman also supported various libertarian policies such as decriminalization of drugs and prostitution.

    An interesting and brilliant guy. More useful to see what can learned from him than casting him in some political light or another and then basing characterization on that.

  51. 51.

    Jay

    November 17, 2006 at 10:51 am

    We have given the Iraqis a republic, and they do not appear able to keep it.

    Krauthammer is on my list of people who should receive an electric shock to the ‘nads each time he claims to be a Conservative. But yeah, I’ve seen that talking point forming for a while:
    1. We did the Iraqis a favour by invading.
    2. We invaded for the sole purpose of toppling Saddam because of all the nasty leaders in the world, he was the nastiest.
    3. WMD? What’s that?
    4. We gave those ingrates a fully functioning Democracy and candy and ponies and they trashed it.
    5. Ah, those savages don’t understand democracy anyways.

    If that doesn’t work shit heads like Krautshammer will claim several thousand US soldiers just happened to be in Iraq on vacation when the shooting started. Because Bush is such a swell guy he allowed them to stay and help.

  52. 52.

    Pb

    November 17, 2006 at 11:18 am

    ThymeZone,

    LOL. I just read your post re:Friedman without checking the context first, and assumed you were talking about Tom Friedman. Fortunately, I scrolled up and figured it out before my head exploded…

  53. 53.

    Jay

    November 17, 2006 at 11:34 am

    Adding Glenn Beck to the list of people (for lack of a better term) who need to be hooked up to alligator clips. I’m thinking the sort on jump starter cables:

    OK. No offense, and I know Muslims. I like Muslims. I`ve been to mosques. I really don`t believe that Islam is a religion of evil. I — you know, I think it`s being hijacked, quite frankly.

    With that being said, you are a Democrat. You are saying, “Let`s cut and run.” And I have to tell you, I have been nervous about this interview with you, because what I feel like saying is, “Sir, prove to me that you are not working with our enemies.”

    Yes. It is nice to know we can still spew out the most bigoted bullshit if we preface it with the “Hey, don’t get me wrong, Some of my best friends are [fill in the blank group].” The entire transcript is here. The segment with Ellison starts about half-way down.

  54. 54.

    jcricket

    November 17, 2006 at 11:41 am

    Yes, Democrats are the next Jack Bauer. They are the unluckiest people on earth (how many terrible-no-good-really-bad-days can one party/person have?), but are always brought in by the powers that be when things get seriously f’ed up. :-)

    So, turning this back to WA state politics. WA state finds itself with an almost $1.9 billion budget surplus. What does the Democratic governor do? Carefully spend the money on long-term items and suggest we keep the surplus for a rainy day

    The governor also wants to leave a healthy reserve unspent, lest the state get on a “roller-coaster” cycle of spend-cut-spend, [Gregoire’s budget chief] said.

    Again even though Democrats will now have super-majority status in the state house and a massive majority in the state Senate, she suggests we not raising taxes (“now is not the time to raise taxes”) & not go on a spending spree. She’s setting aside $775 million to cover existing funding shortfalls (created by previous voter initiatives and the 2000-2004 recession) in state pensions, healthcare and education. Suggests we spend some of the money on high priority items (all day kindergarten, low-level services, more healthcare), and save the rest for the inevitable downturn as the housing market slows/shrinks/busts.

    Hopefully Democrats in other blue states with follow a similar lead.

  55. 55.

    jcricket

    November 17, 2006 at 11:44 am

    And I have to tell you, I have been nervous about this interview with you, because what I feel like saying is, “Sir, prove to me that you are not working with our enemies.”

    Hey Glenn – That nervous feeling? It’s called your conscience, and it’s telling you that you’re a bigot.

    Just another case of our liberal media.

  56. 56.

    Zifnab

    November 17, 2006 at 11:55 am

    WA state finds itself with an almost $1.9 billion budget surplus. What does the Democratic governor do? Carefully spend the money on long-term items and suggest we keep the surplus for a rainy day

    You mean with a whooping $1.9 billion in surplus he’s not spending $1.9 billion on pet projects, another $1.9 billion on government subsidies for Starbuck and Microsoft, and giving everyone making over a billion dollars a 10% tax cut? That’s down right irresponsible. Where the hell does this guy get off?

  57. 57.

    ThymeZone

    November 17, 2006 at 12:11 pm

    assumed you were talking about Tom Friedman.

    Heh, the esteemed creator of the Friedman Unit.

    Poor bastard, he probably never dreamed that he’d be held accountable for the nonsense he spouted about Iraq.

  58. 58.

    Pb

    November 17, 2006 at 12:22 pm

    Zifnab,

    Pronoun correction: she–Gregoire is a woman.

  59. 59.

    Zifnab

    November 17, 2006 at 12:24 pm

    Man of the Year

    Give a big ‘ol Happy B-Day for the Doctor/Governor/DNC Chair/Best-Darn-Dem-in-the-Party, and wish him 40 more years as good as the last.

  60. 60.

    ThymeZone

    November 17, 2006 at 12:30 pm

    Dean is definitely Democrats’ Man of the Year.

  61. 61.

    tBone

    November 17, 2006 at 12:46 pm

    On another note, John Edwards is caught being a hypocritical asshat. I think he has a staff member who’s getting a lump of coal and a pink slip for Christmas this year.

  62. 62.

    mclaren

    November 17, 2006 at 12:54 pm

    Actually, Arthur Laffer was the guru of supply side economics. Friedman long predates Laffer. Friedman is the high priest of total deregulation. According to Milton Friedman (simplified synopsis) nothing done by a bureacracy or governmental agency could not be done far better and cheaper by a private for-profit group.

    Milton Friedman was indeed a genius, as the evidence shows:
    http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/richard_adams/2006/11/post_650.html

    Whoops! Oh, well. “Facts are stupid things,” as a man who co-starred with a chimp once said…

  63. 63.

    ThymeZone

    November 17, 2006 at 1:02 pm

    Milton Friedman was indeed a genius

    Whatever you say.

    My point was that he was brilliant and interesting, not that he was always right or that he was “successful.”

    “Success” in economics sounds to me a little like “success as a witch docctor.”

    As a witch doctor, I think he was brilliant and interesting.

    “Facts are stupid things”

    Luckily, economics has nothing to do with facts :-)

  64. 64.

    Zifnab

    November 17, 2006 at 1:06 pm

    Yesterday, a staff person for former Sen. Edwards contacted a Wal-Mart electronics manager in Raleigh, North Carolina to obtain a Sony PlayStation3 on behalf of the Senator’s family. Later that night, Sen. Edwards reportedly re-told a homespun story to participants of a United Food and Commercial Workers (UFCW) union-sponsored call about how his son had chided a fellow student for purchasing shoes at Wal-Mart.
    Wal-Mart welcomes Sen. Edwards to visit his local Wal-Mart store and explore the extensive line of home electronics as well as the Metro7 line shoes for men and boys.
    The Company noted the PlayStation3 is an extremely popular item this Christmas season, and while the rest of America’s working families are waiting patiently in line, Senator Edwards wants to cut to the front. While, we cannot guarantee that Sen. Edwards will be among one of the first
    to obtain a PlayStation3, we are certain Sen. Edwards will be able to find great gifts for everyone on his Christmas list – many at Wal-Mart’s “roll-back prices.”

    Shorter Wal-Mart: Fuck you John Edwards.

  65. 65.

    jcricket

    November 17, 2006 at 1:11 pm

    Milton had some good ideas (government cannot “plan” the economy, marginal tax rates of 91% are too high, drug war is counterproductive), some ideas that just sounded good (flat income tax), and some that are just ideological claptrap (all bureaucracy or government action can be done better or cheaper by a private group). People like Norquist and Laffer are descendants of the Milton-esque ideology about government and taxation.

    I do think Milton is at least partially responsible for de-shackling American economic theory from the European “planned government” economic theories – our more “free market” economy has definitely contributed America’s growth over the last 50 years. On the other hand, he was just absolutely wrong in the case of health care – He clearly couldn’t understand the economic theories behind why health care doesn’t function like a normal “free market” (unless we as a society decide that people suffering or dying due to lack of health care is an OK outcome).

    Unfortunately, along with that good went the bad (government is the problem, taxes are almost always bad). If people had taken what Milton said and done some better real-world modeling to show the actual appropriate level of taxation for the spending levels, we’d be probably get the best of both worlds. I think there are some ways to temper free-market-uber-alles theory – like not adding so many loopholes to taxation that everyone under the top 10% misses out on the economic gains of the last 30 years.

  66. 66.

    jcricket

    November 17, 2006 at 1:16 pm

    (pronouns fixed).

    You mean with a whooping $1.9 billion in surplus [she’s] not spending $1.9 billion on pet projects, another $1.9 billion on government subsidies for Starbuck and Microsoft, and giving everyone making over a billion dollars a 10% tax cut? That’s down right irresponsible. Where the hell does this [gal] get off?

    I know. She’s going to have to turn in her “tax and spend” merit badge to the DNC.

  67. 67.

    jcricket

    November 17, 2006 at 1:18 pm

    Shorter Wal-Mart: Fuck you John Edwards.

    Yeah – Wanna bet this turns out to be all hat, no cattle. Edwards asks a staff person to help him buy a PS3 for his kid (no harm there). Staff person tries to throw Edwards’ name around, calls a bunch of places (including WalMart), because the PS3 is all sold out and what not. Wal-Mart throws hissy fit.

    And you’re probably right that Edwards will fire or discipline the staffer.

  68. 68.

    demimondian

    November 17, 2006 at 1:33 pm

    Last time we had a governor do that, it was “Sleepy Gary Locke”. I still regret the fact that he later got stuck raising taxes to handle the post 2000 recession up here. I mean — he was such an entertaining speaker, unlike, say, Dixie Lee Ray.

    (Why is it that we have two classes of public figures up here: brilliant technocrats with Bill Gates’ charisma, and slimy pitchmen with Bill Gates’ ethics?)

  69. 69.

    jcricket

    November 17, 2006 at 1:42 pm

    On an open thread note, bipartisanship-fullness and listening to the will of the people after an election are alive and well with the Bush administration:

    The Bush administration, to the consternation of its critics, has picked the medical director of an organization that opposes premarital sex, contraception and abortion to lead the office that oversees federally funded teen pregnancy, family planning and abstinence programs.

    2008 can’t come soon enough.

  70. 70.

    Pb

    November 17, 2006 at 1:44 pm

    Wow, an actual Wal-Mart press release slamming John Edwards for [his staffer] shopping at Wal-Mart [for him]. Generally I shop at Wal-Mart from time to time because I hate America and want China to dominate the earth, but that’s still pretty sleazy.

  71. 71.

    jcricket

    November 17, 2006 at 1:45 pm

    (Why is it that we have two classes of public figures up here: brilliant technocrats with Bill Gates’ charisma, and slimy pitchmen with Bill Gates’ ethics?)

    Bill Gates’ dad (i.e. William Gates Sr) is actually a great speaker with a brilliant mind. Did you see/read his thrashing of Frank Blethen in the debate about the estate tax?

    I think it’s many years of growing Democratic control that leads us to elect capable, but boring leaders. WA doesn’t “need” anyone flashy to convince us to change tactics. Which is why people like McGavick lose.

    Dino Rossi sure was a slimy pitchman, though. WA Republicans are never gonna get elected if the best they can do is hide the fact that they’re Republicans.

  72. 72.

    Tsulagi

    November 17, 2006 at 1:54 pm

    Shorter Wal-Mart: Fuck you John Edwards.

    Even shorter response to Wal-Mart: Up yours!

    Yeah, like they waited patiently in line for Republican federal pork like $35 million in federal taxpayer money spent to widen the road to their headquarters.

    “in an interview recently Keith Richards intimated that kids should not do drugs. Keith Richards, said that kids should not do drugs. Keith, we can’t do any more drugs, because you already fucking did them all. We have to wait until YOU die, then smoke your ashes”

    Now THAT is funny.

  73. 73.

    tBone

    November 17, 2006 at 1:55 pm

    Wow, an actual Wal-Mart press release slamming John Edwards for [his staffer] shopping at Wal-Mart [for him].

    Look, I hate WalMart and avoid it whenever humanly possible, but the staff person who did that was an idiot. If the Senator’s kid wants a PS3 that bad, get in line and camp out with the rest of the losers at Best Buy.

  74. 74.

    demimondian

    November 17, 2006 at 1:55 pm

    I read Gates’ response. He’s an impressive lawyer, isn’t he?

    I wasn’t actually thinking of Rossi, although he certainly does epitomize the “slimy pitchman” school of Republicanism. I was thinking of the head of Permanent Offense, watch-salesman-turned-political-messiah, Tim Eyman.

  75. 75.

    Pb

    November 17, 2006 at 2:02 pm

    tBone,

    I agree that the staffer was an idiot. But the part I find amazing is that a company would put out a press release like that–I’ve never seen the like.

  76. 76.

    Steven Donegal

    November 17, 2006 at 2:04 pm

    I just read the news that Bo Schembechler has died. My condolescences to M Go Blue! fans everywhere and his family. Bo was a great football coach and I know this because he beat my beloved Buckeyes far too many times.

  77. 77.

    jcricket

    November 17, 2006 at 2:09 pm

    I read Gates’ response. He’s an impressive lawyer, isn’t he?

    Yes, and his son is buying him the 35,000 sq. ft. mega-condo on top of the new Four Seasons hotel/condo downtown (for something like $8 zillion dollars). Wonder if that precipitated Gates and other investors buying out the Four Seasons Hotel chain?

    I was thinking of the head of Permanent Offense, watch-salesman-turned-political-messiah, Tim Eyman.

    Oh yeah, Eyman’s the worst of the worst. Eyman’s track record for the past couple of years has been heartening, though. The only thing he’s passed since 2003 (I think) is the largely redundant performance audit initiative. He can’t even get his gay bashing or tax rebate initiatives on the ballot anymore, and he’s down to like one major bankroller (some rich nut-job).

    Honestly, I hate the whole initiative process. I understand the origins of it, but it leads to shitty one-off legislation. I’d favor some initiative “remodeling” making it harder to get initiatives on the ballot, and harder to pass them. Leave initiatives for truly extraordinary things and force the legislators to deal with everything else. If we don’t like the legislation they produce, vote ’em out of office.

  78. 78.

    jcricket

    November 17, 2006 at 2:15 pm

    I agree that the staffer was an idiot. But the part I find amazing is that a company would put out a press release like that—I’ve never seen the like.

    Wal-Marts facing the inevitable consequences of their unconscionable labor practices all over the country – they’re desperate to spin their troubles as the fault of overzealous/hypocritical politicians. Companies in that position pull BS like this.

    I have a friend who’s a lawyer involved in one of the cases where Wal-Mart is accused of forcing employees to work unpaid overtime, clock out before they actually leave, etc. Wal-Mart has admitted (publicly) their guilt, but is pursuing their defense with spurious motions mainly to bleed the other side dry and spread out their publicity problems. You know who else does this? Scientology. Tobacco Companies. Big Oil. Even GE in the 80s (Jack Welch still won’t admit his company polluted all those rivers with massive PCB dumping).

    I look at companies like CostCo and Target and I see a model of how big box retailers can pay their employees reasonable wages and benefits, still make profits and grow their companies. Neither of those companies are “perfect”, but they prove that companies don’t have to be in the business of fucking over their employees, local towns and suppliers in order to achieve profitability or sustain company growth.

  79. 79.

    tBone

    November 17, 2006 at 2:46 pm

    I agree that the staffer was an idiot. But the part I find amazing is that a company would put out a press release like that—I’ve never seen the like.

    I didn’t find it that surprising, really – fits right in with their rep as bullying a-holes.

  80. 80.

    SeesThroughIt

    November 17, 2006 at 2:59 pm

    An interesting and brilliant guy. More useful to see what can learned from him than casting him in some political light or another and then basing characterization on that.

    Yes, I agree. With the above quote, not necessarily with all of Friedman’s stances. I know right-wingers lionize the guy, largely because of his stance on deregulation and free markets and all that, but he also, as previously noted, stood agains the bullshit war on drugs, hated deficit spending with a passion (remember that when Captain Deficit Spending, later renamed George W. Bush, tries to appropriate Friedman’s legacy), and acknowledged that “to spend is to tax,” (remember that when the “all tax cuts, all the time” Republicans try to appropriate Friedman’s legacy).

  81. 81.

    Zifnab

    November 17, 2006 at 3:18 pm

    Honestly, I hate the whole initiative process. I understand the origins of it, but it leads to shitty one-off legislation. I’d favor some initiative “remodeling” making it harder to get initiatives on the ballot, and harder to pass them. Leave initiatives for truly extraordinary things and force the legislators to deal with everything else. If we don’t like the legislation they produce, vote ‘em out of office.

    I really do disagree on that. Initiatives can (and do) get abused by people on occation, but that sort of thing can get fixed when people come to their senses.

    But I’ve seen too many “elect a crappy local legislature to office, let them pass dumb-shit legislation, toss them out, elect a new crappy local legislature to office.” Sometimes the only way to get a bill passed is to pass it yourself.

  82. 82.

    jcricket

    November 17, 2006 at 3:20 pm

    Meanwhile, back at the hall of Congress, Bush and Co. continue their war on science & war on complying with the law:

    At issue is a report on climate change that Congress requires every ten years. The National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), which is responsible for producing the document, last filed a report in 2000. A new report — the first to be filed by the Bush administration — was due in November 2004, but to date the agency has not done so.

    And look at the quote from McCain in questioning the Bush-appointed officials at NOAA on their failure to produce the report:

    “You know,” McCain said a few moments later, “you are really one of the more astonishing witnesses that I have [faced] — in the 19 years I’ve been a member of this [Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation] Committee.

  83. 83.

    jcricket

    November 17, 2006 at 3:21 pm

    Sometimes the only way to get a bill passed is to pass it yourself.

    Fair enough, but look at California’s initiative system? Has that led to good legislation? I think initiatives have caused far more problems than they’ve solved. And while I don’t want the entire process thrown out, I would totally support some improvements to discourage the Californization or Eyman-ization of initiatives.

  84. 84.

    RSA

    November 17, 2006 at 3:50 pm

    A different topic, in case anyone’s still reading this thread. Guess the subject of these incidents of violence? (Text slightly modified to hide the answer):

    Read – CT man shot outside. . ., suspects still on the loose.
    Read – Armed robbers. . .Ohio store.
    Read – Riot breaks out. . .
    Read – Police use pepper balls to control crowd in Tyson, VA.
    Read – Escaped rapist apprehended in . . .

    Correct!

  85. 85.

    Pooh

    November 17, 2006 at 3:52 pm

    but is pursuing their defense with spurious motions mainly to bleed the other side dry and spread out their publicity problems. You know who else does this?

    Every civil defense firm in the world?

    (Oops, back to spurious motions for me…)

  86. 86.

    Jay

    November 17, 2006 at 4:11 pm

    Guess the subject of these incidents of violence?

    [bee-beep!]
    -Pathetic loser.
    -I’m sorry your answer must be in the form of a question.
    -What is a pathetic loser?

  87. 87.

    demimondian

    November 17, 2006 at 4:23 pm

    Guess the subject of these incidents of violence?

    What is the third-best of the three next generation game systems?

    Do I win a prize?

  88. 88.

    RSA

    November 17, 2006 at 4:27 pm

    Do I win a prize?

    Bragging rights, which is about all you get from most games in any case, once the rush has worn off.

  89. 89.

    jcricket

    November 17, 2006 at 5:19 pm

    Do I win a prize?

    Yes, you are now in charge of Iraq’s reconstruction efforts. Good luck. Enjoy your stay.

  90. 90.

    demimondian

    November 17, 2006 at 6:39 pm

    [Y]ou are now in charge of Iraq’s reconstruction efforts. Good luck. Enjoy your stay.

    Excellent! I’ll expect the new draftees to start arriving within six months, with the goal of having all 400,000 of them at their duty stations by 12/07.

  91. 91.

    jcricket

    November 17, 2006 at 6:57 pm

    If you’re going to do well at this job, you’ll need to learn the lingo:

    Excellent! I’ll expect the new draftees Freedom Commandos to start arriving within six months two FUs, with the goal of having all 400,000 100,000 SS troops of them at their duty stations by 12/07 BDD.

    * Freedom Commandos = 101st Fighting Keyboarders + US Supermax Prisoners
    * FU = (Tom) Friedman Units
    * SS = Super Soldiers. Each Super Soldier is made up of 4 Freedom Commandos (100,000 sounds smaller than 400,000)
    * BDD = Blame Democrats Day

    Got it?

  92. 92.

    jake

    November 17, 2006 at 9:41 pm

    Weekend reminder

    If you see people who have been through a terrible disaster: Shoot them!

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