As expected, the plaintive wailing will begin with people who find the basic idea of Democrats in power offensive. FOX News will be next of course. Over the past week, seeing some moderator literally begging her panelists to blame Nancy Pelosi for something was sadly typical. I’m sure that it won’t be too hard to wound the sensitive feelings of Davids Broder and Brooks. Mark Halperin might hold his fire until the Democrats actually do something awful like pass a bill or issue a subpoena. Or maybe not.
As promised I won’t be able to keep up with everything that happens, so feel free to shoot me an email if you spot something I missed.
Lee
Waaaaay off topic but an excellent (and long) read.
Message to Westpoint By Bill Moyers.
Zifnab
Now, if Webb had launched an investigation against the Bush Christmas Card list, this would be a different story.
But telling the President that something is none of his business? Clearly, the Junior Senator of Virginia has not aquainted himself with the new wiretapping executive orders. Bush just needed to make sure that Webb and his son weren’t terrorists.
capelza
Yes, the Democrats went to far! They won the damn election.
January can’t come soon enough for me, so the “pundits” will have something real to bitch about, distort, and plain make shit up about..till then, it’s like the reporters on the Red Carpet of Oscar night..the ones who are there at 8 AM breathlessly trying to fill the airwaves till the people actually arrive.
Will really should be ashamed of himself. Deliberate distortion to make his case.
Edmund Dantes
The best part is Will leaving out certain words and whole sentences from the transcript (of course the words that get omitted hurt his case). Hell he can’t even copy and paste directly from his paper’s own copy.
Sadly it’s become par for the course. Where’s the editor of the paper on this one? He literally excised an entire sentence from the transcript and gave no indication that he was doing so.
Krista
Oh, some people are maaa-aaad about that. I was reading the Daou report, and the summaries of some of the right-wing blogs, and they’re breathless about how “disgusting” Webb’s “rudeness” is.
So, evidently, it’s okay to mismanage a trumped-up war which is killing a lot of young American men and women. But being rude to the fellow who did the aforementioned mismanaging? That’s just disgusting.
Andrew
I’m not sure how else to put it: Will is a fucking putz.
And his writing on baseball is boring as shit.
RSA
Would it have been civil for Webb to have said, “My boy isn’t having as much fun as your girls are in Buenos Aires”? You know, something that’s, as Will puts it, “a civil and caring [statement], as one parent to another.”
SeesThroughIt
Not to mention unhinged, radical, and indicative of the hateful rage that has consumed “the left.”
Mike P.
Poor George Will, got his sensibilities all ruffled by that terrible boor of a man. Why does Jim Webb have to be so excruciatingly honest?
Bombadil
Had Webb been a Republican, he could have told Bush, “Go fuck yourself”. There’s precedent for that.
Tsulagi
Boy George has continuously pissed and farted on this country for six years and Will calls Webb rude for not responding with lowered eyes and meekly enough for him to “That’s not what I asked you” from Bush? Fuck off.
What I would have paid to see Webb drop the spoiled brat with one good punch. The look on his face and no doubt the crying. I would have gone out and gotten a big-screen HD TV just to replay it. Xmas would have come early.
Zifnab
No kidding. Seeing Bush sporting a big ol’ shiner over one of his lying eyes on his next press conference would have been must-see TV. It’s just a shame Webb couldn’t afford to lose restraint.
ThymeZone
You put it just about exactly right.
Will knows more than I do about baseball, but he doesn’t know anything important about it that I don’t already know. By focussing on the arcana, he manages to make baseball … sound like everything else he write about.
Will is guilty of Capital Pedandtry. That’s pedantry that deserves capital punishment. And he’s a Republican whore, despite his assiduous efforts to appear otherwise. He just happens to be a Republican whore who got off the Bush bandwagon a little earlier than most.
srv
It’s telling that the guy many of the self-proclaimed ‘real’ conservatives point to as being a real intellect is, well, not.
Richard Bottoms
Hate to get off topic, but isn’t anyone in the blogsphere ever going to point out that exposing 33,000 airline passengers to polonium radiation is use of WMD?
Rudi
I wonder how ugly it would have been if Bush was smug while offering condolence for Webb’s sons loss of life in Iraq. If Bush was smug in this situation I would love to see the Decider with a black eye – LOL.
mrmobi
God, I love that new guy Webb!
Big, brass ones!
I’ve never been a huge baseball fan, but reading George Will writing about baseball is enough to turn just about anyone into a soccer fan.
TZ, the leaks about the Iraq Spin Group are that they are recommending a “phased withdrawal” without any specific timetable. Can someone please explain to me how this was worth the effort or useful in any way at all?
Jeebus.
Pb
I think you just did. But how much exposure are we talking about–after all, smokers do it all the time.
Jay
I think Will may have set a new record for the Washington Post. 50 “pages” of responses to his column and counting. I glanced at a couple dozen and can summarize as follows:
1. You’re going after Webb for mangling the English language when Bush was in the vicinty? What a putz.
2. You’re going after Webb for being rude, when Bush was in the vicintiy? What a schmuck.
3. Yes we noticed your trick with the quotes, cretin.
4. Aaah, shaddup ya weenie!
Good stuff.
Steve
I still think Will is one of the better Republican pundits. And I don’t mean by that to disagree with anything others have said.
SeesThroughIt
Ditto. And contrary to some posts above, I think he’s a pretty smart guy. But in this instance, he definitely stepped in it.
mrmobi
Thanks, Lee, for that link to the Bill Moyers piece. What a wonderful and thought-provoking send-off he gave to the graduates of West Point this year. Well worth the time it took to read.
There is a lot of great stuff in this long speech, but this is very timely:
ThymeZone
Well, the IJSG (Iraq-Jackalope Study Group) will have done its job. Deflect attention for a while and put Bush’s dad’s guys in charge of the dirty work.
Actually solving a problem?
That ship already sailed:
Future presidents will have to work that out.
In other words, why do we keep pestering him? He already told us to go take a flying leap.
Jay
Shouted “Cannonball!” and leapt in is more like it.
Really, what gives? Will sounds like he’s been lugging a giant sized hate-on for the man for a while. I can imagine him shrieking “Ah ha! I’ve got you now Webb, at last you shall be mine!” when he read the article and dry washing his hands before he fired up the PC. Did Webb steal Will’s best girl or something?
I agree with Will on a few matters, disagree on a number of others but I’m surprised he stooped to quote cooking to “prove” Webb is ungentlemanly. And perhaps I’m just a dorky editor but this type of creative editing (*cough*lying*cough*) isn’t just boorish. If Will were a reporter he’d be in deep doo-doo.
Or as Will would have me say: Excrement.
ThymeZone
That’s like saying Squeak Fromme was one of the “better” Manson Family members.
Zifnab
In other news, Barney Frank was boorish and uncivil to Bill O’Reily, having the gaul to question O’Reily’s expertise on, well, anything.
~linktothepast
Why do Democrats always end up sounding so overblown and shrill?
*It helps if you just read the bold print.
Area Man
This whole Webb thing seems to stick in the Republican craw more than any other electoral defeat. George Allen was the Chosen One, the locked-in Pretty Boy of 2008. Now he’s just a footnote in a Wikipedia article regarding the meaning of “Macaca as a slur”. Oh well.
I say we ignore this and send in more troops to win the War On Christmas.
S.W. Anderson
I will be watching to see how the Conservative News Network (“Hey, Fox News viewers, over here — we carry water too. We pander too. Red meat served daily!”) will tack with the political winds blowing in a very different direction.
CNN has done a masterful job of packing its talk shows and segments with Republicans for years now, as close to the exclusion of Democrats as it could get away with. I wouldn’t be surprised if there are pictures of Cal Coolidge, Herbert Hoover and Ronald Reagan, along with Bushes G.H.W. and G.W. in CNN’s green room. The network’s producers and bookers will probably have to develop whole new contact lists.
Sen. John Kerry’s appearance on Larry King’s show last night might be a sign of shifting emphasis, but I wouldn’t bet the rent on it.
sglover
How long it will be before right-wing loons start gassing about how Webb never really “earned” his medals?
TZ, the leaks about the Iraq Spin Group are that they are recommending a “phased withdrawal” without any specific timetable. Can someone please explain to me how this was worth the effort or useful in any way at all?
Well, it’s marginally useful as a kind of controlled experiment. The whole purpose of Baker’s group is to try to salvage something of Bush the Lesser’s legacy. Sure, Iraq is the proximate reason why the group was formed, but let’s face it, Bush/GOP damage control is its real concern. Yet even when a group of “wise men” bends over backward to accomodate Bush, he pre-emptively cuts them off at the knee. Chalk it up as another data point supporting the argument that as long as Bush / Cheney occupy their offices, NO progress will be made.
This is why seeking remedies like impeachment isn’t mere score-settling. It’s an absolutely necessary precondition to repairing the vast damage that the regime has caused. They fuck up everything they touch. They need to go, pronto.
Mike S
Don’t forget about the “Blame America First” crowd.
It has nothing to do with the failures of Bush. It’s the American people who let him down’s fault.
Zifnab
We’ve got the Senate, we’ve got the House, and we’ve got patience. The Republicans wasted 8 years of political capital trying to oust President Clinton, and what did they have to show for it? They managed to stagnate and obstruct kinda-sorta until ’00 and still needed a stacked SCOTUS to win the Presidency. If not for 9/11, the Republicans would have been dead in the water by ’02, maybe ’04 at the latest.
We need to get down to business, cleaning up the Congressional shit the ‘Pubs left behind and fixing the problems they let stagnate. Pass those spending bills, raise the minimum wage, impliment the 9/11 commission recommendations, secure the ports, leave Iraq, and plow through all the Red Herrings the ‘Pubs are going to want to throw in our path in the meantime.
Once Bush is out of office, and we’ve got a new blue President in his place, the freshly picked AG can go to town on our ex-President and pals. For now, its more work and less play.
ThymeZone
Now that I’ve seen Kevin Drum’s piece on the Saudis, and understand why President Cheney went over there last week, and now that I have had a few years to put two and two together and get a sharp government stick all the way up my ass, I finally get it.
This whole “no timetable for withdrawal” stall, around a policy and a war strategy that failed with a thud at least two years ago, is all about kissing the rings of the goddamned Saudis. It’s always been about the Saudis.
Our Middle East policy is the Saudis’ policy. The Bushes are nothing more than the plenipotentiaries of the Saudi government.
Fuck, fuck, fuck. Seriously, fuck.
ThymeZone
Sorry, the link for Kevin Drum’s Saudi piece.
srv
I don’t think the Saudi’s wanted us to go in, but the ‘if you break it, you own it’ applies. They did want our visible troops out of the country, to give Osama one less talking point to the natives. But that wasn’t a marching order to Dick to invade. It was just one more excuse for him.
sglover
Our Middle East policy is the Saudis’ policy. The Bushes are nothing more than the plenipotentiaries of the Saudi government.
An explanation that makes a little more sense to me is that this Saudi statement is a borderline desperate expression of no confidence in American policy. Ordinarily they’d be more circumspect in public.
I don’t think the Saudis have ever been especially good at controlling anything. From what I know of their history (which is admittedly not nearly what I should), for decades they’ve been muddling through by improvising and buying off or otherwise accomodating enemies as necessary. If you look at how they’ve pissed away their oil windfall (the Saudi work ethic doesn’t seem to go beyond writing checks for the hired help), I don’t think it makes sense to think of them as some kind of master strategists, let alone omnipotent puppetmasters.
ThymeZone
Well Glover, that’s a fine argument against nothing I said.
I didn’t say they were master strategists, or good at anything.
I have said that they have the corrupt Bush family in thrall, with their money and their little fiefdom. I continue to think this, and I find only reinforcement of the idea as time goes on. I think that it’s no accident that George Bush kisses those disgusting piggish oligarchs on the hand when they come to visit at the ranch.
I think they only reason he kisses them on the hand is because it wouldn’t be seemly in front of the cameras to kiss them on the ass.
Jay
Unless you compare them to the clowns flinging white wash in the White House…
ThymeZone
Call me crazy, and keep in mind that I do support gay marriage, but the image of an American president kissing a foreign diplomat on the hand is not something I think I can ever get used to.
I think that image says it all about this government’s Middle East policy.
DougJ
Whoa! That was a poor column but let’s not start lumping Will (or Broder for that matter) in with Halperin and Brooks. That’s like putting Charles Manson in with Pol Pot — simply unfair to everyone involved.
DougJ
Let’s not forget, there was nothing shrill about the way Cheney said that. Sometimes grown-ups swear at each other. Cheney’s a little on edge from all the tough, adult decisions he has to make and you can’t expect him to abide ankle-biters like Leahy. I suspect that Leahy was being shrill, anyway.
Jay
Well, this one likes to give backrubs to foreign leaders, why should diplomats be left out?
TenguPhule
Fixed.
TenguPhule
I’ve got some bad news for you, that’s *not* white *wash* they’re flinging.
srv
A Soldiers view of Iraq:
A Soldier’s Story
h/t reddit
srv
And on and on…
– Major Bill Edmonds
Eric Lindholm
The only thing sillier than Will’s article is your reaction to it. Geez, get a grip: five words omitted and it’s holy jihad time.
capelza
Eric..the five omitted words were the ones that undermined Will’s point don’t you think?
He had to carefully cherry pick around them to make his point..and THAT is the point.
Zifnab
They were five rather important words in the discussion. It’s the difference between a guy saying, “Hey, how’s your son” and “Hey, how’s your son, bitch.”
George Will basically bitched Webb out for doing what I’m sure a few hundred thousand parents and wives and children would have been perfectly happy to say in his place. Webb stood up to the Chimp’n’Chief and Will decided to attack him for his grammar, then go off on a tirade about Webb being on a high horse. I mean, talking about Projectionism.
It’s just so mind boggling how full of shit this pundit is.
SeesThroughIt
That’s a hell of a link, srv. I wish “support our troops (as right-wing props)!” wingers would read it.
ThymeZone
Word.
Eric Lindholm
Wow, really? You all wouldn’t have the SAME reaction if Will had left those words in his article? Oh, I’m sure.
And why is there always the need to demonize anybody who disagrees with the popular wisdom? So I’m full of shit. How very 5th grade.
ThymeZone
Mr. Cole will rightly point out that around here this is known as dressing up as Jesus, nailing yourself to the cross, and sticking a spear into your side.
Which is okay, we all do it at times. But most of us are better at it than you are.
capelza
Might have a a real eye rolling guffaw at the wimpiness of Will, but if the reaction would have been the same, why leave out those words…like “Mr. President”, etc at all then. Becuase they put a lie to Will’s whole point?
sglover
Well Glover, that’s a fine argument against nothing I said.
I didn’t say they were master strategists, or good at anything.
Yeah, fine, whatever. I was just tossing out an explanation that I ran across, and found interesting. Golly, I didn’t know I was challenging your precious turf, boss.
You wanna tell me just why you take any comment that doesn’t agree with you wholeheartedly as a reason to start a pissing contest? What the hell is your problem?
Jimitha
“The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.”
Sixteen words included and it’s holy jihad time.
ThymeZone
What is wrong with you?
Tax Analyst
Looks like this thread just disintegrated. Anyway, yeah…Will is a putz. Editing the remarks was lame and then going off on a pointless grammar lesson (that seems to have been incorrect)after that even lamer. Yeah, I remember having a fellow criticize something I wrote about Bush’s ineptitude in, well, virtually every area but particularly the Iraq situation not too long ago. And his criticism? I used an apostrophe incorrectly. And, looking back, yes, he was correct. HORRORS! Nearly 3,000 dead American soldiers and well over 100,000 Iraqi’s (probably quite a few more than that, but I’ll go low-ball here)as well…that country now in a hellish civil war situation with no real end in sight and our military tied down in Iraq and straining from misuse and overuse and I FUCKING MISUSED AN APOSTROPHE! The SHAME…I tried to be nice when I implied that he was a fucking imbecile, but I don’t know that I succeeded – sometimes I can be a little nasty.
Tax Analyst
Looks like this thread just disintegrated. Anyway, yeah…Will is a putz. Editing the remarks was lame and then going off on a pointless grammar lesson (that seems to have been incorrect)after that even lamer. Yeah, I remember having a fellow criticize something I wrote about Bush’s ineptitude in, well, virtually every area but particularly the Iraq situation not too long ago. And his criticism? I used an apostrophe incorrectly. And, looking back, yes, he was correct. HORRORS! Nearly 3,000 dead American soldiers and well over 100,000 Iraqi’s (probably quite a few more than that, but I’ll go low-ball here)as well…that country now in a hellish civil war situation with no real end in sight and our military tied down in Iraq and straining from misuse and overuse and I FUCKING MISUSED AN APOSTROPHE! The SHAME…I tried to be nice when I implied that he was a fucking imbecile, but I don’t know that I succeeded – sometimes I can be a little nasty.
Gold Star for Robot Boy
Cops in my town love them minstrel shows!
Pb
Honest, Mister!
Of course we wouldn’t. We might still think he’s full of shit, but at least he wouldn’t be dishonestly cherry-picking to make his argument as well.
Wow, three words added, and I already know you’re being an ass. Sorry, Eric, we already have a Darrell around here, get in line.
There isn’t? Try making a good, honest argument without being an ass about it and we’ll answer it in kind. Otherwise, we’re stuck answering *this* bullshit. Or not, as the case may be.
Check.
Waah! Oh, you’re one to talk, too. Do you want your mommy?
Sherard
Good job. A republican smear job on the Democrats ? Because Will left out a sentence in the exchange between Bush and Webb. Sorry, but Webb came off like a prick, there is no spinning it otherwise.
Impressive job spinning it the other way.
Dustbin Of History
Sorry, but Webb came off like a prick, there is no spinning it otherwise.
Translation: *fingers in ears* LALALALA DEAR LEADER IS ALWAYS RIGHT I CAN’T HEAR YOU NANNY NANNY BOO BOO
jake
Eric Lindholm is so angry he has declared a holy war:
See! Did you see that? Some one call the cops!
Sherard (you are) agrees that Will is a cretin:
Hey, this is fun. What else? Oh damn, TZ gave away Mr. Cole’s Halloween costume next year:
bernarda
George Will is just another in the long line of extreme-rightwing Rethuglican Chickenhawks.
ThymeZone
Oh dear, we’ve gone all gay again.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
ThymeZone
sorry, Glover, I was a little tired and snippy last night.
I don’t see any pissing contest forming here, I don’t think we disagree on much. In fact, when it comes to the Saudis, we both hold them in low regard.
It’s the Bushes that I blame for the corrupt relationship between them and the nasty oligarchs, and I’ve been bitching about it here for over a year and a half, so I just assume that everybody knows that.
Anyway, no harm, no foul, I hope.
Cheers,
Ppg
The Other Steve
Webb showed incredible restraint.
I would have slugged the SOB.
The Other Steve
Project much?
ThymeZone
Yeah, the last thing you want to do with a president who has trashed the Constitution, started a useless and probably illegal war with no end, pandered to a crazy extremist religious base, tried to undermine the Social Security System, presided over a host of White House and party corruptions, politicized 911 and a phony “war on terror,” screwed everyone he’s dealth with and turned to crap everything he’s touched, is come off like a prick. A guy like that deserves nothing but the greatest of respect. Turning 75 percent approval into 35 percent approval in a couple of years is hard work.
Right now, the little alcoholic couldn’t get himself elected secretary of the New Orleans Junior Chamber of Commerce. I’d grovel before his mighty power if I were talking to him.
ThymeZone
But you know what I wouldn’t do? I wouldn’t kiss him on the frigging hand.
RSA
Wouldn’t it be cool if at Bush’s next press conference, when he gives some boilerplate evasion in response to a direct question, a reporter with balls were to say, “I didn’t ask you that, Mr. President; I asked. . .”? He couldn’t be accused of incivility by Bush, could he? I can see Bush’s jaw working now. . .
Zifnab
I think what we’re all trying to say here is that Bush is a childish, heartless, little prick of a man and George Will is a whinny apologist who can’t even defend the most powerful man in the world without relying on intellectual dishonesty.
Other than that, we’ve got no complaints.
And TZ, you do tend to fly off the handle a bit when someone disagrees with you. No offense. I mean, I could probably have more room to talk if I didn’t spout random gibberish on occation just for the hell of it. But still, you’ve got to learn to take a deep breath before posting, find your zen garden and your power animal, and then put fingers to the keyboard. Then you might not catch so much flamey flak from otherwise friendly posters.
Krista
And I figure it’s about time that someone refused to blow sunshine up Bush’s butt. What would you have had Webb do? Be a phony, and chitchat cordially with the man who has royally screwed over the country?
Larry
Improper verbiage to point out unwanted ass-fucking:
“Hey! Stop fucking me in the ass!”
Proper verbiage to point out unwanted ass-fucking:
“Pardon me. Might I inquire as to when it might be convenient for you to remove your member from my fundament?”
In polite company, it’s not the deed, but the naming that so offends.
ThymeZone
Well, no I don’t, but explaining that would take a long post and nobody would read it or stay awake through it.
I pick my battles mostly, and plan them carefully, mostly. And there is much more to the dynamics than meets the eye. Which is not to say that anyone should give a fig, but nevertheless, that’s the way it is.
Most of the flame wars you see me involved in are continuation wars. For example, I have been having the same basic battle with Darrell, scs and Mac Buckets for 18 months. The topics change but the argument is the same one. My position with them is, “You suck, so shut up.” that’s the gist. And of course I can write you 10,000 words defending that position. You’d be asleep in no time.
Then there are the flame wars with certain lefties here. Those are mostly also continuation battles, where the topics change but the argument is the basically the same. Since those guys don’t know the details, I’ll just leave it at that. In most cases, those people and I are talking on an email list off the board and what you see here is somewhere between 30% and 90% theatrical. Exactly how much will vary, and as for my estimation of it, a deeply guarded secret. If you want to know more, you’d have to join the list … which I encourage you to do. Just drop me an email (my addy is the first text I show on my url, you just have to read between the lines a little).
Now, as for the sglover thing, all I can say is, I think some people assume that I am always out to have a flame war, so any disagreement from me is taken in that light. That’s an understandable reaction, since a lot of people here don’t exactly follow my career closely and track the subtleties of my act. However in this case, I wasn’t looking for any real argument, just pointing out that my prespective was quite different from the one I guessed he thought I had. Guessed, because I based my response on his response. I’d say we both guessed wrong on that exchange. No big deal AFAIC.
Last but not least, remember that you have a community of trolls and spoofs here and that some of them, including me, are talking offline, and not everything you see here is what it appears to be.
I urge all lefties here to join the lefty email list and help us achieve our goal of world domination and the dispersal of terrible humor. Not necessarily in that order.
That includes you, glover, Andrew … jake, jay, all lefties. We’ve even invited some non-lefties, although none have taken the bait …er, invitation … yet. The thing is entirely democratic (small d) so don’t worry about “agreeing” with anyone. Agreement is not a requirement on the list. Righties who are interested should speak up too. Just shoot me an email.
DougJ
What’s amazing is how the media doesn’t bat an eye about the silliness of the whole “shrill” meme, even when applied in a ridiculous way. Check out this exchange I had with a WaPo reporter:
ThymeZone
OMG, DougJ, that is priceless. That should be framed and put on display in every public place.
What’s breathtaking about it is that it’s so ordinary. It’s a microcosm of every hour of every day on cable tv.
Jake
Yes old chap, but do not forget that the tone of one’s request counts as much as your wording. If one is too shrill or, heavens forfend, blunt in one’s speaking one will show one’s attacker that one is an uncouth boor who deserves a to be sodomized to with in an alpaca hair of one’s life.
And of course, if one is holding a drink during the assault, be sure to keep that pinky finger extended!
Krista
Someone must have gotten a copy of The Pearl last Christmas…
Punchy
I smell a Best Buy commercial featuring Bush with a steak taped to his head just waiting to happen.
Bombadil
Hmmm… Sounds like that should read, “Someone else
must have gotten a copy of The Pearl last Christmas…”
CaseyL
Holy god, is that thing still in print??
TenguPhule
“I didn’t ask you that. I asked how your son is.”
And Sherard explores new depths in direct rectal visual examination.
You need a big Prick to deal with a Pussy like George.
Or an Ass like Sherard.
Krista
Casey – evidently it is. I just checked on Amazon, and there it was. I guess some things never go out of style.
TenguPhule
Yes it is. And still a fun read too. Though a bit overzealous with the bottom thrashings.
Buddy
Not sure why the heck anyone cares about an exchange between the president and webb.
TenguPhule
More evidence that Bush is a heartless SOB is always welcome.
So is a Democrat with a spine.
Buddy
Frankly less assholiness on both sides is needed, not more of it.
Tax Analyst
But Buddy, even if one were to accept equal “assholiness” on both sides (which I don’t), shouldn’t it stop on the side that started (and continues to display)it? Just how many cheeks must one turn before one is allowed to respond? Personally, I’ve just about run out – Bush has been shitting on opposing points of view for almost 6 years now…when IS “enough” going to be enough?
DougJ
Buddy, you’re right — both sides are wrong here. Thank God for those of us in the center, most of us, the reasonable, centrists who know that the war is wrong but that it is also wrong to oppose it and that we need national health care but should distrust the tax-and-spend liberals who give it to us.
The Other Steve
Buddy, you are absolutely right. When confronted by unmitigated assholiness, the Democrats should just sit and take it like God intended!
Zifnab
Remember, Democrats are pussies. And when they’re not pussies, you should bitch about it.
ImJohnGalt
That’s “Iraqis”.
[heh]
ThymeZone
Uh, no. The Bushleaguers were quick to dismiss civility as weak when they thought they had the world by the tail.
Now they expect civility? Fuck them.
Webb is a hero in this story. He’s showing all Dems how to stand up to these dickheads.
Bombadil
Word.
Buddy
Tax Analyst
No offense but this shit has been going on for 100 years — the Republicans didn’t start it, just took it to its ‘logical’ endpoint, which leads down the shithole we are in right now. I don’t know that it’s possible to determine ‘who started it’ unless you want to blame it on Tip O’Neil, which is the modern ‘founder’, but I don’t think its even fair to blame HIM either though as there are political commentaries from 1909 complaining about the same stuff.
Bottom line is, it doesn’t make a shitpile in a shoe’s bit of difference who started it, it still stinks like shit and needs to stop. All this ‘well YOU started it so I’m gonna finish it’ bullshit is SO 13 year old adolescent that it’s not even funny any longer. It’s just childish, boorish, and besmirches our nation. But you know, we elect this assholes, so, such is that.
Buddy
s/this/these in the last sentence.
TenguPhule
When one side is consistantly wrong and are total Asses about it, the other side should not play nice. That’s how we got into this mess in the first place, remember?
You can call for politeness when the Republicans in Office stop acting like pissy little babies and not a damn second earlier.
DougJ
I’m glad someone is taking on the most important issue facing us right now: Jim Webb’s shrillness. Jim Webb is a greater threat to the country than Osama bin Laden, Kim Jong-Il, and the gay lobby all put together.
Buddy
TenguPhule
Go ahead down this path and you’ll see the democrats out on their asses come nov 2008, as this sort of behavior is why I and alot of my Libertarian friends told the republicans to pound sand this election. We are tired of the bullshit, tired of the whininess, tired of the 13 year old adolescent behavior from supposed adults.
But you stick to the same path. That’s fine, I guess. You see how well it’s worked the last 6 years.
ThymeZone
Well sure, because up until 3 weeks ago, the lies, the war, the incompetance, the cronyism, the bullying, the lust for power and the corruption were just funny as hell.
The whole world was just in a chucklehead sorta mood. the country was careening down the mountain road like Mickey’s Trailer with Goofy at the wheel, and we were lovin’ it.
Now, somehow it has all gone horribly unpleasant.
Tsk.
DougJ
A libertarian is a Republican who smokes pot.
Buddy
ThymeZone:
Unless you have some beef to back up your rhetoric, I respectfully request you stand down because, at least in regards to this person, you are absolutely incorrect in your characterization.
non facias malum ut inde fiat bonum
ThymeZone
Okay, multitasking here. Catch me up … which person are you referring to?
Buddy
DougJ:
Perhaps (not me personally, I quit when I saw my car hopping up and down, many years ago).
But mostly, just less inclined to worry about what his neighbor down the street is doing in his own castle. But then, these folks in congress and the Whitehouse aren’t exactly what I’d consider Republicans either, because that is what traditional Republicans stood for, too.
Buddy
ThymeZone
The fact that I thought everything was going swimmingly ‘3 weeks ago’.
Buddy
P.S. ‘This Person’ would be me.
Pb
Buddy,
…because the alternative is so much better?
Your proposal sounds more Liebertarian, really. Actual self-identified Libertarians as a voting bloc amount to nearly nothing. The Glibertarians alone surely outnumber them.
Agreed.
Well, Bush got re-elected, and by a wider margin at that. Sadly, it has worked quite well for the Republicans (over the past 14, or perhaps 30 or more years, not just six…), and I doubt they’ll stop it anytime soon. But surrender to the absurd couched in the phrases of ‘bipartisan compromise’ is not the answer.
ThymeZone
Wasn’t referring to you personally, Buddy. Was making a general sarcastic reference to the situation we’re in.
I don’t agree with any calls for civility in this time period we are in. I am for getting the face of the people who maneuvered us into this manure pile and saying thanks, but kindly get the flock outta the way.
I’m not blaming you for any of it.
Buddy
Pb: I would argue the war got Bush re-elected, along with a bit of fearmongering. It seems the public are lothe to change leadership in the middle of war, no matter how badly things are going.
As for the fearmongering, just because it worked doesn’t make it right. Selling your soul to the devil for a bit of time out of hell never made sense to me. Eventually the tables WILL turn, Democrats will be back in the minority, and the nastiness will get worse. That is unless one party has enough balls and wherewithall to stop the bullshit.
ThymeZone
“getting in the faces” replaces my previouss tortured phrase.
Buddy
P.S. I’m not referring to compromise, just civility. You can be ‘no compromise’ and still not be an asshole.
Gold Star for Robot Boy
Late August: Ann Coulter says “Things are going swimmingly in Afghanistan.”
Buddy
Gold Star for Robot Boy
Am I Ann Coulter? Boy if you think that, you need some BIGASS glasses cuz your current ones are non-functional to the point of blindage.
Coulter is the inverse version of Michael Moore, reversed right down to the eating problem.
Jake
Buddy you need a big ass shot of whiskey. Just because a post follows yours, does not mean it is directed at you.
demimondian
Yo, Buddy!
Since you’ve decided to stay here, and since you aren’t used to us…the tail of any thread in BJuice can get pretty weird. It’s almost universally a Bad Idea to assume that any comment is associated with the on-going thread unless it clearly references the thread; random chip shots are at least as common as random cheap shots here.
TenguPhule
Sure you can, and get eaten up alive by a Rightwing nut sucking media and GOP pundits/wise old men in Washington.
Webb’s words and actions were what got him elected, a guy not afraid of power, not afraid to speak his mind. If that’s your idea of an asshole, too bad.
Buddy, you can dream of polite ponies all you want, but if ‘Libertarians’ are going to be offended by calling a pussy a pussy, then they have no business sticking their noses into politics. Empty threats to vote for the Republicans for ‘civility’ when Republicans dragged this mess into its current sewer don’t cut it, the real grownups have bigger problems to worry about then not offending some pissy babies who keep trying to paint both sides with the same brush to avoid being tarred alone.
Should be working
There are now 89 ‘pages’ or almost 1800 comments on that Post article (and from what I’ve read 99% Call out Will on his hackery). Prety awesome.
TenguPhule
Truer words have never been spoken.
Gold Star for Robot Boy
Thanks, Jake.
My post wasn’t directed at anyone – it was just presenting information, that’s all.
But it did confirm Buddy is a d1ck, so that’s nice.
Jake
When there were “only” 76 pages a reader claimed to have read each comment and found an 18 – 1 ratio of non-support v. support for Will’s vapouring over civility. Hee-larious.
The Post hasn’t had the comment feature for very long but I suspect he will hold the record for most repsonses to a piece for a very long time. In an ideal world he and the Post’s editors would be forced to read each one. Although the fact that the Post’s comment function rejects apostrophes, quotation marks and paragraphs might cause Willie to swoon.
Gold Star for Robot Boy
But, will the WaPo’s ombudsman – the one who goes into swoons when the common herd acts up – address the complaints?
John D.
No.
This has been another episode of Simple Answers to Simple Questions.
Gold Star for Robot Boy
I agree.
demimondian
Is the Pope Polish?
Jake
Completely OT:
I see by ye olde side-bar that Dick Miniter is the newest member of PajamasMedia. I usually have a strong stomach, but the thought of Dick in pajamas is making me throw up in my mouth.
Gold Star for Robot Boy
Who?
Jake
Not who exactly, more a what.
Pb
Buddy,
The Republicans are currently the party of fearmongering, torture, and dirty tricks–I don’t see the Democrats going down that road, but if they do, rest assured, I’ll be right there with you calling them on it. However, I see no reason to assume that they will or are.
But the fact is, to attempt to be ‘in the middle’ right in between the two parties nowadays pretty much ensures that you’ll be in the wrong, because the Republicans have moved so far past the right and into crazytown that the center cannot hold (and indeed it didn’t). This sort of phony ‘bipartisan’ centrism (as I said/coined above, ‘Liebertarian‘) is of course different from some actual libertarians, who hold a few positions that aren’t common to either party establishment (some of which I agree with).
Tax Analyst
ImJohnGalt: Hehe…Thank’s (HAR), I needed that. I never could figure out those damned…those damned…those damned…OH, SHIT…do I HAVE to use ANOTHER ONE here? Fuck it…”Apostrophes” – I don’t know how to use them.
Jake
The saga of Webb’s remark WILL. NOT. DIE.
This writer one up’s George Willie’s quote cooking by citing Will’s piece rather than the original article and an another opinion piece from the Washington Times [Scooby-Doo “Huh?” noise] to “prove” that Webb’s remark may harm his effectiveness once he is in office.
Shut. Up.
Tax Analyst
Buddy, you do see the problem here, don’t you? You’re trying to make an equivalency where it doesn’t really exist. The disrespect and disdain from the current White House occupant & company…AND their Noise Machine far outstrips ANY other past transgressions from Presidents of EITHER party, at least in my lifetime (1950 to present)- and I’m including the Nixon years here. Their shit (Bush & Co)just went WAY beyond the pale. So am I ready to “make nice” to folks who accused me of being a “traitor”, “disloyal” or “un-patriotic” because I happened to think they were dead wrong and had the absolute gall to actually state that in writing? Not right now. You don’t kick ME in the ass and expect me to turn around and say “Thank you, now can we all get along here?” As Ricky Ricardo might say, “Lucy, you got a lotta ‘splaining to do” first. I’m still waiting for that ‘splaining before I consider whether getting along makes any sense. Do you think that’s petty? Frankly, I don’t give a fat rat’s (apostrophe placement? heh…) ass. OH…uh…no offense, right?
DougJ
Buddy’s a spoof. I know who he is, I’m pretty sure.
Torn Ligament
I’d agree with you except that the ‘asshole’ is the father of a son in combat. I think this gives him the right to smack Bush right back down after Bush’s own asshole comment. Within that short exchange Bush was the the first and bigger prick.
I’m loving Webb. If he was a Rep. Ann Coulter would be wanting to have his baby.
Tax Analyst
Jake, thanks for the link. Read the piece…you’re right -what a crock of shit. Telling Bush to shove off “May harm Webb’s effectiveness”? Shit, the problem is all the ass-kisser’s who did NOT tell Bush to shove off when he was peddling all his bullshit…exactly how “effective” were they?
Tax Analyst
I don’t know how I got that “strikethrough” into that last post. I must have hit some keystroke combination. Damn new-fangled computer shit…Anyway, “Strike that last strikethrough”. HERE’S what it should look like:
Jake, thanks for the link. Read the piece…you’re right what a crock of shit. Telling Bush to shove off “May harm Webb’s effectiveness”? Shit, the problem is all the asskisser’s who did NOT tell Bush to shove off when he was peddling all his bullshit…exactly how “effective” were they?
There’s no strike-through in there when I preview it. Guess I’ll see how it comes out.
DougJ
Elinor Clift nailed this one:
The Other Steve
Ahh, this reminds me of the time Wesley Clark was on the campaign trail and was accidentally captured on camera with the following exchange:(paraphrased)
Woman: “What are you going to do if they come after you with the smears?”
Clark: “I’ll beat the shit out of them.”
The next day the news cycle was all about how he’d used the word shit. One of his campaign aids was on Hardball, and Matthews brought it up. His response was classic.
Aide: “Wes Clark misspoke. He did not mean to say he’d beat the shit out of them. What he meant to say was that he’d beat the living shit out of them.”
Clark’s popularity, and fund raising skyrocketed after that.
Webb’s not going to apologize, and the more they wring their hands over this the more the Republicans just make themselves look like pansies.
CaseyL
I think Webb should wait until the proper setting to slug Bush.
Like, in a rocky field, surrounded by families who’ve lost loved ones in Iraq.
Webb bloodies Bush’s nose; Bush goes reeling…
… and everyone else picks up a stone. One stone apiece.
And then they all go Biblical on the little shit. Deal out some of that good ol’ Old Testament justice – the kind Bush and his followers are so fond of, anyway.
pie
This Buddy guy is the greatest thing to come to this website since US Patriot.
TenguPhule
Isn’t it amazing how they both act the exact opposite of their names? :p
DougJ
Please don’t call him Buddy guy!
Richard Bottoms
Hello???
Someone has used a radioactive weapon of mass destruction. WTF??? Am I the only one seeing it this way.
WMD
jake
Since Will thinks Webb is some sort of knuckle dragging barbarian, what do you think his response will be when he learns Republicans plan to decapitate Pelosi?
I expect nothing less than prolonged fainting fits from M. Delicate.
I thought you were making some sort of joke about Will’s random word removal activities.
Hyperion
yes, it took me a while to deduce that the commenters weren’t all incoherently drunk. you’d think WaPo could do better than that.
some are quite funny. and most are civil!
demimondian
Oh, I expect to see a number of people getting exercised about raising the threat level to brown about this, Richard. I don’t share their enthusiasm.
Some eight grams of Polonium 210 are shipped worldwide every year. Yes, it’s quite toxic, but it’s not as toxic as a number of reagents regularly used in genetics and neurobiology. It appears to be easy to administer to a single person, although I doubt some of the more lurid claims. It is NOT easy to mix into large quantities of air or water, and thus is a relatively ineffective mass terror weapon.
Richard Bottoms
Yes, you can’t dose 33,000 people internally with it. But you can expose that number of fliers to it on Britsh Airways planes.
Tell me that’s good for confidence in air travel.
And uh, why didn’t radiation detection devices pick this up before now?
I’m not suggesting panic I am suggesting someone ask WTF is going on here. Polonium isn’t the only isotope available to do this sort of thing.
Pb
demimondian,
No, you just aren’t smoking enough!
Pb
Richard Bottoms,
The thing is, you’d pretty much have to dose people internally–it’s the alpha radiation that does the real damage, and while that’ll mess up your organs, it won’t penetrate your skin. This isn’t dirty bomb material, really, it’s more like poison.
Richard Bottoms
>The thing is, you’d pretty much have to dose people >internally
It’s called terrorism, not murderism. It’s now obvious that it is possible to contaminate aircraft with radioactive isotopes. Do think people will really give a shit that alpha radiation is “not that bad” outside the body.
I’m just surprised it took so long for such an attack to happen. Just what do you think Jose Padillia is in for for?
And he just _talked_ about such an attack.
skip
Just as Pat Buchanon was right (!) when he said, “the only good Catholic to the media is a bad Catholic,” so too the only good Democrat is an inert one.
searp
On Webb:
Ask a personal question, get a personal response.
W is too easily offended, and dumb enough to ask a self-serving personal question to a guy who clearly disdains him personally and professionally.
I was talking with a soldier last week, who said that he knew that George Bush suffered personally because of our casualties.
I told that soldier that George Bush isn’t a private citizen, and that if he wanted to acknowledge the sacrifices of our soldiers he would do it in public and help the entire country better understand. He would go to those funerals, he would be seen embracing family members.
That soldier, a decorated combat vet, thought about it, and then agreed.
demimondian
Richard — there are two points here, so let’s tease them apart.
First, the “WMD” angle. Alarming though it is, Po 210 won’t make an effective WMD. Like Pb said, you need to dose people internally to poison them with Po 210.
Second, the terrorism angle. Yeah, you can expose people to polonium, but, since we need to ingest it to be poisoned by it, it really isn’t that dangerous to large crowds. For some reason, people seem not to be panicking about it — which is good, since the objective threat is low. (For what it’s worth, the folks at United Nuclear have a nice discussion on their “isotopes” page.)
Of course, I’m now sitting here thinking about alternative attacks, and realizing that there might be some which work. The ones I can think of are powerful gamma emitters, though, and thus would not make it through security.
jake
Because it makes him look bad. Vain little sods are sensitive to such things. Otherwise, this personal suffering might have been expressed, as you said, by appearing to give a damn. I’m even surprised he hasn’t taken advantage of all the photo ops such funerals provide. Maybe he’s afraid he’ll run into a Sheehan-type parent. (Must…preserve…bubble…)
If he suffers personally he could give vent to his pain via loud demands for better equipment, even if it meant demanding real sacrifice of the American people ($$$$), in order to cut down on casualties (and suffering).
Shit, what am I thinking? If he really cared he wouldn’t have lied us into a damn war in the first place.
Zifnab
No shit. Bush’s daughters are out partying it up in Argentina, his brother is sitting pretty as a Florida governor, his father is making trips overseas to be wined and dined by Arab royalty, and his wife gets to play sweet little angel on national TV without taking an ounce of flak that was shelled out at poor Hillary. Please, would someone explain to me how Bush has suffered? I’d like to know how his quality of life has diminished since 2003. Did his plans for a $1 billion Presidential Library get scaled back? Does he not think he’s going to get his face on the $1 bill or Mount Rushmore? Give me a fucking break.
Carol H
I’m coming late to this thread but I want to comment. When I read the George Will comment I was outraged and sent him the following email…not that I expect him to actually read it:
Mr. Will:
I read your column about the Bush/Webb exchange with great interest since I also have a son deployed in Iraq. In my case he is in the Army and based in Ramadi. There was a boor at the reception attended by Webb, but it was not Webb, it was Bush. When Webb was asked “how’s your boy” he answered honestly, he would like his son and the rest of our Americans there home brought home. I would have answered in the same way if Bush had asked the question of me. Bush did not reply, as you stated in you column, by repeating the question. He replied: “That’s not what I asked you. How’s your boy?” Since he did not get the answer he was seeking, presumably some version of “He’s fine,” he jabbed at Webb. His son may be many things but “fine” is not one of them. LIke my son, he is probably doing difficult and dangerous work and his father is proud of him. LIke my son, he probably also knows people have have been killed or injured and although strong and brave worries about his own safety. He probably has seen and done things that no man should be asked to see and do except under the most necessary circumstances. Like myself, Mr. Webb does not feel that our adventure in Iraq was necessary. When my son calls me from Iraq at 3 AM to talk about a man from his barracks who lost both his arms and his legs, scared and worried about what that means to that man, I know he is also worried about himself. How, he asks, is that man supposed to live his life? Would Bush have preferred that Webb answered: “He’s worried about how he would cope without any of his limbs, Mr. President”? His final statement to Bush, “That’s between me and my boy, Mr. President” is honest, how his son is doing is complicated and personal. It is not to be shared casually, especially with the person responsible for the danger his son is in. The fact that you do not understand why Webb responded the way he did is an indicator of the divide between those of us with children in harm’s way and those who don’t. I am happy Mr. Webb could stand in for the rest of us when he was asked that question.
demimondian
Carol H.– POTD.
ThymeZone
Hear, Hear. POTY, Carol.
Thank you for sharing that letter.
Krista
Thank you for that, Carol, and may your son come home safe and sound.
And as for this:
Suffered personally? His approval ratings, maybe. And I wouldn’t want to tell that soldier that he’s wrong, because hey…whatever keeps his spirits up, right? But for the love of mike, this man has NOT suffered personally in ANY war in which he has been involved. And it’s only the fact that a soldier said it that keeps me from being much more vehement and profane than I am now. (That, and the fact that I am at my mother-in-law’s right now and have just consumed a wee bit too much wine, and so do not want to say anything which I might regret later.)
jake
Well said Carol H.
I hope Will’s e-mail box is reaching critical mass with letters like yours.
John Redworth
Normally I consider Will to be one of the brightest of the right side of pundits and even when I disagree with him, I can see how he got to his opinion… this time though, Will let me down with this childish and amature attempt to smear someone…
Pb
Richard Bottoms,
Well, as I mentioned about cigarettes, they don’t seem to give a shit that it’s so bad inside the body, so go figure. Although I guess when you’re talking about doses that are large enough to actually cause death in a day or two if ingested instead of, say, 30 years or so, then people’s ears might perk up a bit more.
Pb
Carol H,
Hear, hear. I think you’re right, by the way:
Tsulagi
Carol H,
Excellent email letter. Hopefully Will will have the capacity to understand it if not appreciate it.