It constantly amazes me how the rightwing in America contravenes Israel’s interests while claiming to support her. On the one hand you have neoconservatives who think they’re doing the right thing but keep coming up with policies that accomplish the exact opposite of what they meant (see, Iraq). On the other you have millenialist evangelicals who want very badly for Israel to knock down al-Aqsa and rebuild that Temple so that the rest of the Book of Revelations can statr happening already. For those guys the concept of a negotiated peace in the middle east is not just problematic but inimical to the whole point of their “support.” Neocons don’t trust any diplomatic entente that doesn’t come through violent subjugation on our part, so it hardly seems necessary to wonder which group is getting in Condoleeza Rice’s way. Could be both.
Me, I’d be thrilled to see peace in the mideast. But then I don’t see the other “side” as implacable, bloodthirsty savages so I guess my opinion is a bit compromised.
Andrew
Most Jews in this country recognize this bullshit. The only believers are opportunists like Lieberman and the neo-con warmongers, and the ultra-religious right-wingers in the U.S. and Israel.
Jews still vote Democrat in most races, by about 80% to 20%.
The only reason that this meme of Jews are pro-Bush/war/whatever is that the pro-war media selects pro-war Jews for TV time and op-ed space.
srv
Heh. There are people way scarier than neocons.
Ace was recently talking about how he didn’t know any Christians who think like millenialists. Really. Surely, the whole Left Behind series isn’t 2nd only to Harry Potter because anybody believes that crap… Right?
Israel has their own fanatics, and one day they and their xtian cohorts will get together and make things really interesting.
scarshapedstar
Someday like… Sep…tember-the-11th-2001? Bwahahaha!
Tim F.
I used to think that, specifically in the person of Ariel Sharon. He seemed like neoconservatism personified, all aggression and dismissive, even hostile to diplomatic compromise. At first I felt vindicated but over time Sharon impressed me with his pragmatism. I think that the most dangerous politicians in Israel are not the ideologues, who I don’t think live far enough from the gritty reality to take neoconservative ivory-tower theorizing very seriously. I worry more about a nonentity like Olmert who has everything to prove and cannot afford to sacrifice one interest for the greater good like Sharon did with the settlements.
Olmert doesn’t have a brilliant war record like the leaders who came before him, so I worry that he might do something stupid in trying to gin one up. But again, I think that Israelis just can’t get far enough removed from reality to gin up crazy theories like the PNACers do here, so I worry less than I might otherwise.
Steve
What’s amazing is how many wingnuts continue to advocate for policies which proved to be too far-right for even ARIEL SHARON.
Pixie
What scares me is stuff like this:
Israel Debates Reply to Threat of ‘Nuclear’ Iran:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6865785
Some juicy tidbits include perhaps low level NUCLEAR strikes at Iranian Nuclear facilities as well as conventional weapons (bombs) at other high interest targets.
I love the way they talk about it in the report to, as if a nuclear strike was the same thing as ordering a cup of coffee…I mean, something like this would be an act of war, would it not? If Iran was talking about targeted nuclear strikes at Isreali nuclear sites, would we not be screaming holy hell and bloody murder here in the states…I really don’t get this double standard…is Isreal the only entity (besides the US) who is allowed to pre-emptively strike at a sovereign nation because it feels threatened?
srv
Already did in Lebanon, and it didn’t work out so well.
As the stable of “war heroes” fades, more extreme ideologs will appear and populists will have to move right. They’ve already had purges of units that guard al-Aqsa. The craziest folks over there aren’t the locals, they’re Americans who have moved over and are on a “mission from god”.
ThymeZone
Heh.
Is Israel the only country on earth with an army of unpaid volunteer liars and spinmeisters and browbeaters around the world ready, willing and determined to rip the lungs out of anything and anyone that dares to criticize anything about the policies of the little country?
Is Israel the only country on earth has a shield of thuggish political correctness around it that is a foot thick and made of Kryptonite?
If you criticize France, would you expect a worldwide chorus of cries of anti-Gallic outrage? No, you get “Freedom Fries.” If you criticize Israel … well, try it here, and see what happens.
SeesThroughIt
This just shows how onserious you are about affairs in the MIddle East. They’re coming to chop off your head, you know.
chopper
of course. israel and the jews are merely stepping stones for the christian right to their whole end-times garbage.
seriously, they’re all excited to see israel do all this stuff, then of course its all ‘our saviour is finally back, so convert or die’. as mentioned above, most jews see through it, not that israel doesn’t enjoy the extra money and support. but it’s so transparent it’s almost funny.
Steve
But the fact is, you can harshly criticize Israel’s policies, IN ISRAEL. Look at the mainstream press like Ha’aretz. It’s only in America where the PC police gets you.
ThymeZone
Why, because accusing Jews of anti-Semitism hasn’t caught on yet?
Actually … it has. Just ask Eric Alterman (media matters, formerly MSNBC). He’s been branded a “self-hating Jew” for daring to suggest that Israel’s every policy utterance wasn’t sent down from Almighty God himself.
And no, it’s not just in the US. The noise machine operates throughout the Western world.
skip
I was in the Palm (DC) the other night and overheard a neocon argument over what to “do about President Carter’s book.” One faction urged attacking and destroying him “straight up.” The other faction suggested “inmanization.” which turned out to mean spinning him as a kook (which they apparently did to Israel-critic Admiral Bobby Inman). Interesting. Cool as cucumbers, the lot of them.
Steve
Heh, you bet your ass it has. And the Israeli Right throws around the term “anti-Israel” the same way the Right in this country labels its political opponents “anti-American.” But they still manage to have a vigorous debate.
ThymeZone
Well, at the risk of reopening last summer’s … debate …. let’s just say, their process might leave something to be desired.
Actually, I can’t reopen it, I don’t have time for a heated war right now.
But I might have something open in April …..
ConservativelyLiberal
The way that people try to keep anything from being said that they view as anti Israel has always bothered me. I too, was once a rabid supporter of Israel, no holds barred. Over time, I did my own research and while I still support Israel as a nation in its right to existence, I do not support it blindly (anymore). My Ma taught me that it takes two to tango, and the Palestinians are not dancing alone.
WHat changed my mind was one evening, whatever news station I was listening to on cable was discussing the numerous deaths in Israel over the years (related to terrorism or retaliation to). The host said that Israel had been running at an average of 15:1 (fifteen Palestinians to one Israeli killed), but that with recent unrest (at that time) the Palestinians had closed to 3:1 (Palestinians to Israelis). This was the metric the news show was using to show that the surges in Palestinian attacks were being felt in Israel.
Now all I had heard about in the news was ‘Israeli deaths today’, over and over through the years. All of the sudden it hit home that though all I was hearing about was numerous Israeli deaths at the hands of Palestinians, there were many more Palestinians who were dying and nobody was saying a thing about it.
That prompted me to start my own personal study into the mideast, and I have to say that Israels actions can not survive close scrutiny regarding their treatment of the Palestinians. People complain about the suicide bombers (as I once did), without thinking ‘How miserable does your existence have to be to drive you to the point of killing yourself and others?’. Pretty bad is the answer. When death and 72 virgins in heaven looks better than life itself, you know those people are living miserably. After all, we have heaven in Christianity (and if you believe Revelations, Christian heaven will only have 144,000 male virgins… a sausage fest. Hmmm, maybe Islam is on to something…) yet Christians are not killing themselves in droves to get there. You have to be miserable when no existence is better than living.
Any time I talk about things like this, I am called an anti-semite and am told to shut up and go away. Sorry, but what I am saying is not anti-semetic unless they are now redefining what anti-semetic means. This is the same logic that is used by the right to try to stifle talk against this administration and its policies/actions. You hate America, as they are so fond of saying.
No, I hate close minded bigots who have no leg to stand on so they shut down any discussion. I hate people who are anti-thought and anti-reason. I am not a mindless minion who will blithely parrot the talking points I have been fed.
I WILL use my mind. If it gets me banned, I will just go somewhere and speak up. Such is free speech (and the internet).
dreggas
Preach it man…Preach it!
SeesThroughIt
Agreed. To me, the answer to the right-wing Gotcha Question “Don’t you support the Israeli right to exist?” is “Yes–no more or less than I support the Palestinian right to exist.”
skip
Supporting Israel’s right to exist presumably requires knowing its boundaries. That is the Vatican’s problem with it. That is my problem with it. That isn’t an agreement I encounter every day.