• Menu
  • Skip to primary navigation
  • Skip to main content
  • Skip to primary sidebar

Before Header

  • About Us
  • Lexicon
  • Contact Us
  • Our Store
  • ↑
  • ↓
  • ←
  • →

Balloon Juice

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

It is possible to do the right thing without the promise of a cookie.

The republican speaker is a slippery little devil.

Republicans want to make it harder to vote and easier for them to cheat.

I might just take the rest of the day off and do even more nothing than usual.

The Giant Orange Man Baby is having a bad day.

One way or another, he’s a liar.

T R E 4 5 O N

This blog will pay for itself.

I really should read my own blog.

We will not go back.

75% of people clapping liked the show!

Wow, I can’t imagine what it was like to comment in morse code.

Insiders who complain to politico: please report to the white house office of shut the fuck up.

Come on, media. you have one job. start doing it.

When I was faster i was always behind.

We’ve had enough carrots to last a lifetime. break out the sticks.

Trump should be leading, not lying.

There are times when telling just part of the truth is effectively a lie.

Compromise? There is no middle ground between a firefighter and an arsonist.

Relentless negativity is not a sign that you are more realistic.

The cruelty is the point; the law be damned.

Jack be nimble, jack be quick, hurry up and indict this prick.

Republicans: The threats are dire, but my tickets are non-refundable!

Imperialist aggressors must be defeated, or the whole world loses.

Mobile Menu

  • 4 Directions VA 2025 Raffle
  • 2025 Activism
  • Donate with Venmo, Zelle & PayPal
  • Site Feedback
  • War in Ukraine
  • Submit Photos to On the Road
  • Politics
  • On The Road
  • Open Threads
  • Topics
  • Authors
  • About Us
  • Contact Us
  • Lexicon
  • Our Store
  • Politics
  • Open Threads
  • 2025 Activism
  • Garden Chats
  • On The Road
  • Targeted Fundraising!
You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / War / Fair Weather Friends

Fair Weather Friends

by Tim F|  February 2, 20078:27 am| 465 Comments

This post is in: War

FacebookTweetEmail

Unlike Dick Cheney most of us are having a hard time finding signs of progress in Iraq. Al Qaeda is stirring the pot as enthusiastically as ever, reconstruction has basically ended while violence makes building unfeasible. Bloody civil war, reprisals and counter-reprisals and even the safety of our own troops (how many helicopters have we lost in the last two weeks?) seem to indicate a country that is slowly, inexorably circling the drain.

It could be that Cheney had in mind the 300,000+ new Iraqi forces that we’ve trained and equipped. In a happy world where everything works exactly as advertised, that would be a great point. Too bad we don’t live in that world.

U.S. Army commanders and enlisted men who are patrolling east Baghdad, which is home to more than half the city’s population and the front line of al-Sadr’s campaign to drive rival Sunni Muslims from their homes and neighborhoods, said al-Sadr’s militias had heavily infiltrated the Iraqi police and army units that they’ve trained and armed.

“Half of them are JAM. They’ll wave at us during the day and shoot at us during the night,” said 1st Lt. Dan Quinn, a platoon leader in the Army’s 1st Infantry Division, using the initials of the militia’s Arabic name, Jaish al Mahdi. “People (in America) think it’s bad, but that we control the city. That’s not the way it is. They control it, and they let us drive around. It’s hostile territory.”

[…] After U.S. units pounded al-Sadr’s men in August 2004, the cleric apparently decided that instead of facing American tanks, he’d use the Americans’ plans to build Iraqi security forces to rebuild his own militia.

So while Iraq’s other main Shiite militia, the Badr Brigade, concentrated in 2005 on packing Iraqi intelligence bureaus with high-level officers who could coordinate sectarian assassinations, al-Sadr went after the rank and file.

His recruits began flooding into the Iraqi army and police, receiving training, uniforms and equipment either directly from the U.S. military or from the American-backed Iraqi Defense Ministry.

The infiltration by al-Sadr’s men, coupled with his strength in Iraq’s parliament after U.S.-backed elections, gave him leeway to operate death squads throughout the capital, according to more than a week of interviews with American soldiers patrolling Baghdad. Some U.S.-trained units carried out sectarian killings themselves, while others, manning checkpoints, allowed militiamen to pass.

Keeping in mind that the army and the militias are one and the same, it seems difficult to come up with a workable strategy for imposing American will on Iraq. By ourselves we lack the manpower to do much more than defend our own bases. Even when we “surge” in to Baghdad we won’t have the force to clear neighborhoods and then hold them. Without the help of the militia-infused Iraqi forces we end up stuck in an endless game of whack-a-mole while the bandits clear out ahead of us and then reform after we move on.

Real power in Iraq now rests with the major Shia power brokers, Muqtada al-Sadr and the Iranain-backed parties. America can’t change that. All that we can do now is go on bleeding until either politics or readiness constraints pulls the plug.

The Sunni minority, of course, knows what’s coming and our Sunni allies in the mideast are understandably frantic about it. We owe it to the mideast to maintain enough force to dissuade Turkey and Iran from going in and to prevent the bloody civil war from going out, but to be honest I expect that the president’s quixotic windmill quest won’t even leave us with that option. By the time reality makes it through the bubble there may be nothing left to do but come home.

FacebookTweetEmail
Previous Post: « Throw These Guys in Jail…
Next Post: Congrats, Glenn »

Reader Interactions

465Comments

  1. 1.

    jake

    February 2, 2007 at 8:55 am

    His recruits began flooding into the Iraqi army and police, receiving training, uniforms and equipment either directly from the U.S. military or from the American-backed Iraqi Defense Ministry.

    Gosh. What a huge surprise. I mean, who would have thought they’d be clever enough to figure out: Free weapons + free training + free official uniform + get to know one enemy = A lot more power?

    However, I don’t think there was any realistic way to stop this especially when you consider the time frame. After a decade of nothing but occupation? Sure. In the middle of trying to rebuild a country and dodge bullets while a civil war heats up? Forget it.

  2. 2.

    Otto Man

    February 2, 2007 at 9:20 am

    Come on, Tim. Clap louder!

  3. 3.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 9:27 am

    Yep, I saw this coming. Not that the media has been making the obvious connection–‘insurgents’ with US/Iraqi military looking outfits, equipment, vehicles… where could they possibly have gotten those? Then again, I guess it can work both ways sometimes.

  4. 4.

    Faux News

    February 2, 2007 at 9:30 am

    Tim,please allow me to pre-empt Darrell:

    1. Why do you hate our troops?
    2. Why do you want Iran to get Nuk-lee-ar Weapons?

  5. 5.

    Punchy

    February 2, 2007 at 9:31 am

    get to know one enemy

    Jake nails it. It’s much more than just the guns and ammo they’re rooking. It’s the training BY US forces so that they later KNOW US forces when they battle. No wonder they’re so disgustingly effective…

  6. 6.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 9:32 am

    The US Army’s own manual (just rewritten by Gen Petreus) on counter insurgency operations (COIN) calls for a troop to population ratio of 20 troops for every 1000 civilians. Iraq’s population is roughly 26 million, so we should have roughly 520,000 troops in country to do a COIN operation.

    How many troops do we have in country now?

    Bahdad’s population is 6 million so we should have 120,000 troops in Baghdad alone.

  7. 7.

    Zifnab

    February 2, 2007 at 9:41 am

    The US Army’s own manual (just rewritten by Gen Petreus) on counter insurgency operations (COIN) calls for a troop to population ratio of 20 troops for every 1000 civilians. Iraq’s population is roughly 26 million, so we should have roughly 520,000 troops in country to do a COIN operation.

    To the first, there are large areas of Iraq without any serious sectarian violence. Most of the insurgency and bloodshed takes place in the major cities – Bagdad, Kirkut, Anbar – and squelching it there is the main issue.

    Bahdad’s population is 6 million so we should have 120,000 troops in Baghdad alone.

    But yeah, that’s a problem. I’m with Otto on this. We require more clapping.

    Also, tax cuts.

  8. 8.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 9:41 am

    Jonathan,

    According to a recent report from the Brookings Institute, it’d take at least 450,000 troops, because they exclude Kurdistan (“which hopefully would remain stable”). Also note that I wouldn’t be surprised if Iraq’s population is currently lower than 26 million due to the number of people who have died or fled:

    One in eight Iraqis have left their homes in what is the largest long-term population movement in the Middle East since the displacement of the Palestinians in 1948, the UN’s refugee agency said today.
    […]
    The organisation and its partners estimate that, of a total Iraqi population of 26 million, around 1.7 million Iraqis are internally displaced and up to two million people have fled to nearby countries.

  9. 9.

    tBone

    February 2, 2007 at 9:43 am

    Bahdad’s population is 6 million so we should have 120,000 troops in Baghdad alone.

    “The idea that it would take several hundred thousand U.S. forces I think is far off the mark.” – Rummy

  10. 10.

    Wilfred

    February 2, 2007 at 9:43 am

    Tim says:

    Real power in Iraq now rests with the major Shia power brokers, Muqtada al-Sadr and the Iranain-backed parties. America can’t change that

    We can’t change it because we enabled it; by A) Disbanding the Army, and b) De-Baathification. The Administration will try to frame this as a heroic, well-intended mistake, while not mentioning the high probability that the current mess was the desired result.

    The Sunni minority, of course, knows what’s coming and our Sunni allies in the mideast are understandably frantic about it.

    Bush doesn’t care, in fact Muslims killing Muslims is best case scenario for Americangelical foreign policy.

    Mukhtar Limani, the Arab League Ambassador and de facto spokesman for Sunni Muslims resigned last week. Take a look at his comments http://www.iraqslogger.com

  11. 11.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 9:45 am

    The manual for the COIN operation is predicated on starting immediately after the cessation of kinetic combat. There has been over three years now for the insurgency to gain momentum and the troop levels called for in the manual probably will not be adequate to quell an already raging insurgency.

  12. 12.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 9:48 am

    I call for more troops at Balloon-Juice. Insurgents caused an all-night crash and outage last evening.

    So, who tripped over the power cord?

  13. 13.

    Zifnab

    February 2, 2007 at 9:52 am

    The manual for the COIN operation is predicated on starting immediately after the cessation of kinetic combat.

    There’s only one solution to this problem, and I’ve said it many times before, is a Time Machine.

    We go back in time and kill Dinosaur Jesus. Then none of this ever happens.

  14. 14.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 9:53 am

    A COIN operation is more akin to police work than to kinetic combat (what our troops are trained for). Police work requires being able to communicate with the local population. Our troops are woefully untrained in speaking Arabic.

    If we were truly serious about pacifying Iraq, all our trigger pullers would be intensively trained in Arabic. This is not happening as of this moment.

  15. 15.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 9:56 am

    If we were truly serious about pacifying Iraq, all our trigger pullers would be intensively trained in Arabic.

    Yeah, good luck with that. No, if we were really serious and/or competent in our prosecution of this, we’d have at least one or two guys in each unit who could speak Arabic (and English) decently–but all of them? No way that’s happening.

  16. 16.

    scarshapedstar

    February 2, 2007 at 9:57 am

    Tell us about the schools.

  17. 17.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 9:58 am

    Every trigger puller in Iraq should be equipped with a laptop with RosettaStone language training sofware for Arabic. Their commanders should be ordering them to spend off duty time studying Arabic.

  18. 18.

    RSA

    February 2, 2007 at 9:59 am

    You know, if I were President right now, I’d be running around like a chicken with its head cut off: “How could this have happened?! We’re totally fucked!” Bush and Cheney, not so much. While my first thought is, “I want some of the meds they’re on,” I honestly think my reaction would lead to better solutions than what we’re seeing from these guys.

  19. 19.

    cleek

    February 2, 2007 at 10:00 am

    Tell us about the schools

    it’s best to avoid them.

  20. 20.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 10:01 am

    REMFs should be training in Arabic also but that is not as important as they do not come into contact with the population as much as trigger pullers.

  21. 21.

    AkaDad

    February 2, 2007 at 10:02 am

    This is all hogwash!

  22. 22.

    Andrew

    February 2, 2007 at 10:07 am

    The manual for the COIN operation is predicated on starting immediately after the cessation of kinetic combat.

    Of all the stupid military neologisms, “kinetic” ranks among the worst. A “kinetic weapon” is fine. Using it to describe operations is silly. Holy shit, you mean you’re moving during an invasion? Let’s repurpose words to make shit sound flashy.

    Stupid terminology + PowerPoint Rangers = piss me off.

  23. 23.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 10:08 am

    Every trigger puller in Iraq should be equipped with a laptop with RosettaStone language training sofware for Arabic.

    No way I’m letting you get near defense appropriations. Look, I think they could find a few native speakers somewhere to hold classes…

  24. 24.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 10:09 am

    Andrew,

    I think ‘kinetic’ works nicely as a counterpoint to ‘potential’ combat. But yeah, it’s not quite the same. :)

  25. 25.

    tBone

    February 2, 2007 at 10:12 am

    Their commanders should be ordering them to spend off duty time studying Arabic.

    Yeah, I think that would go over well. After a 12-hour patrol, there’s nothing a soldier would rather do than study Arabic on a laptop.

    It would be nice if every soldier knew Arabic; it would also be nice if they each got a pony at the conclusion of their tour. Neither is going to happen.

  26. 26.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 10:13 am

    No way I’m letting you get near defense appropriations. Look, I think they could find a few native speakers somewhere to hold classes…

    Compared to what we already spend to recruit, train, equip, transport and support our troops, a laptop is a drop in the bucket.

    Besides, a lot of them already have their own laptops anyway.

  27. 27.

    tBone

    February 2, 2007 at 10:14 am

    We go back in time and kill Dinosaur Jesus. Then none of this ever happens.

    What would become of ThymeZone’s yard guy then? I don’t think you’ve thought through the potential consequences.

  28. 28.

    tBone

    February 2, 2007 at 10:16 am

    Compared to what we already spend to recruit, train, equip, transport and support our troops, a laptop body armor and helmet liners is a drop in the bucket.

    I think we should take care of the basics before we worry about equipping everyone with laptops.

  29. 29.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 10:18 am

    We train all of our trigger pullers in all the other skills needed for combat, why not language training also.

    And also as to the cost of training. The value of a single life is considered to be around $6 million. How many troops do you have to save before any cost of laptops and software will be more than compensated for by lives saved.

    An armored Hummer costs around 250k, for instance. How many of those have we lost so far?

  30. 30.

    chopper

    February 2, 2007 at 10:19 am

    Of all the stupid military neologisms, “kinetic” ranks among the worst. A “kinetic weapon” is fine. Using it to describe operations is silly. Holy shit, you mean you’re moving during an invasion? Let’s repurpose words to make shit sound flashy.

    i don’t think you understand the ‘gravity’ of this situation. we don’t want the us army to be seen as a ‘weak force’. just the sort of thing i’d expect from the ‘pions’ in the blog world.

  31. 31.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 10:22 am

    Yeah, I think that would go over well. After a 12-hour patrol, there’s nothing a soldier would rather do than study Arabic on a laptop.

    If it was likely to save your life or keep you from disabling injury you might feel differently.

    Troops do as they are ordered, that is the culture and training of the military. You don’t ask questions, you just say “aye aye sir” (I was a Marine) and go do what you are told.

  32. 32.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 10:27 am

    Of all the stupid military neologisms, “kinetic” ranks among the worst. A “kinetic weapon” is fine. Using it to describe operations is silly. Holy shit, you mean you’re moving during an invasion? Let’s repurpose words to make shit sound flashy.

    Do you have any suggestions for alternative terms?

  33. 33.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 10:33 am

    Do you have any suggestions for alternative terms?

    How about ‘ongoing’, or ‘active’. Or in the case of ‘kinetic combat’–how about ‘combat’? Or just get a thesaurus, sheesh.

  34. 34.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 10:34 am

    We’ve lost 3,000 troops so far at a cost of 6,000,000 each. That comes to 18 billion. Injured troops cost even more than that what with often extensive medical care and

  35. 35.

    Paddy O'Shea

    February 2, 2007 at 10:38 am

    The big winner in this war is Iran. All they have to do is stand by until we pull our troops out of Iraq, and then they just waltz on in to fill the vacuum.

    Sure hope Tehran appreciates all the hard work we’ve done taking care of their Sunni enemies.

  36. 36.

    Andrew

    February 2, 2007 at 10:39 am

    How about ‘ongoing’, or ‘active’. Or in the case of ‘kinetic combat’—how about ‘combat’? Or just get a thesaurus, sheesh.

    Indeed. I thought that combat was straightforward enough, but apparently not. We can also call invasions invasions and occupations occupations.

    Acronyms are one thing, but it really pisses me off that even the top brass brings this Orwellian silly talk to press conferences.

  37. 37.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 10:42 am

    How about ‘ongoing’, or ‘active’. Or in the case of ‘kinetic combat’—how about ‘combat’? Or just get a thesaurus, sheesh.

    Combat would include trench warfare which is hardly kinetic and is not what our troops are trained for.

    Active would also include trench warfare as would ongoing.

    I didn’t coin the term, I’m just using the commonly accepted phrase that is used throughout the the US military.

  38. 38.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 10:45 am

    We’ve lost 3,000 troops so far

    At least.

    at a cost of 6,000,000 each.

    Actually, all told, it’s probably more than that, even.

  39. 39.

    Jake

    February 2, 2007 at 10:47 am

    Every trigger puller in Iraq should be equipped with a laptop with RosettaStone language training sofware for Arabic.

    There are a couple of hand-held devices that are hyped-up versions of those little [foreign language] to English calculator thingies in development. The problem is…they’re in development and so far they don’t work that well. More money for contractors though!

    (Yes, I’m looking for a link to the story)

  40. 40.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 10:49 am

    Jonathan,

    Here you go:

    It will be a combination of what we call kinetic and non-kinetic options. Kinetic — combat operations. Non-kinetic — rebuilding, civil military operations.

    Soo… combat. Works for me.

  41. 41.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 10:50 am

    A car bomb is a VBIED in miltalk. Vehicle Based Improvised Explosive Device.

    Lot easier to say car bomb than VBIED.

  42. 42.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 10:56 am

    Jonathan,

    Yep. Just another reason to say what you mean instead of sticking in extra–and often unnecessary–jargon.

  43. 43.

    Jake

    February 2, 2007 at 10:56 am

    Handheld translators.

  44. 44.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 10:57 am

    It will be a combination of what we call kinetic and non-kinetic options. Kinetic—combat operations. Non-kinetic—rebuilding, civil military operations.

    The link wouldn’t open for me.

    But a COIN operation is a form of combat, it’s just much lower intensity than kinetic combat. You are still killing folks, you just aren’t killing as many or as fast and you’re not moving around nearly as much.

    US forces are trained and equipped to be highly mobile. A method of warfare that has existed since the Wehrmacht Blitzkrieged into Poland and has only become even more mobile ever since.

  45. 45.

    fester

    February 2, 2007 at 10:59 am

    Jake, Carnegie Mellon University is working on a bunch of translation machines if that will help your search out.

  46. 46.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 11:01 am

    Timothy McVeigh infamously bombed the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City with a Ryder truck filled with ammonia nitrate/fuel oil explosive in the Oklahoma City bombing.

    Actually, this is wrong. The OK city bomb was ammonium nitrate/fuel oil/nitromethane combination. A straight ammonium nitrate/fuel oil bomb wouldn’t have had nearly the destructive potential to do the damage that was done.

    Nitromethane is the fuel used in top fuel dragsters, along with a smidgen of alcohol.

  47. 47.

    Andrew

    February 2, 2007 at 11:01 am

    Why don’t we hear more about provised explosive devices?

    If a bomb is designed and purpose built, such as those we are accusing Iran of importing, isn’t it not “improvised,” by definition?

  48. 48.

    tBone

    February 2, 2007 at 11:06 am

    If it was likely to save your life or keep you from disabling injury you might feel differently.

    Troops do as they are ordered, that is the culture and training of the military. You don’t ask questions, you just say “aye aye sir” (I was a Marine) and go do what you are told.

    I have a friend over there now; he’s picked up as much Arabic as he can, and would like to know more. The problem is, he’s also pulling long patrols, regularly going without sleep for 24-hour periods, dealing with paperwork, etc. etc.

    I just don’t think it’s realistic to expect people who are over there now to study Arabic in their offhours. They have plenty to deal with already. Save the intensive language study for training/predeployment.

  49. 49.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 11:06 am

    Even such simple phrases as “What is your name?” are spoken differently in Fallujah than in Baghdad, he found. “This may have been the reason why many of the Iraqis … did not appear to understand the Arabic phrases & words” stored in the device, according to a report prepared for the Army.

    Well, Duh!

    I guess none of these people have ever been to the UK, a small country with a wide range of dialects, some of which to the American ear aren’t even recognizable as English.

  50. 50.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 11:09 am

    I just don’t think it’s realistic to expect people who are over there now to study Arabic in their offhours. They have plenty to deal with already. Save the intensive language study for training/predeployment.

    Another of the “planning for the occupation” chores that Rummy forbade his staff to do.

    Even fifteen or thirty minutes a day of language training would help a lot.

  51. 51.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 11:11 am

    If a bomb is designed and purpose built, such as those we are accusing Iran of importing, isn’t it not “improvised,” by definition?

    If you buy the thing ready to use, at Bombs-R-Us, that’s “provised.”

    Or at a convenient McVeigh-Nichols Bombarama Drive Thru.

  52. 52.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 11:12 am

    Sorry, that’s “Obamarama.”

    My bad.

  53. 53.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 11:12 am

    If a bomb is designed and purpose built, such as those we are accusing Iran of importing, isn’t it not “improvised,” by definition?

    You’re right of course. My info is that the IEDs are being mass produced, just where is anyone’s guess. Could be Iran, or even in Iraq itself, we just don’t have the troops to seal the borders and search for bomb making facilities.

  54. 54.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 11:16 am

    Sorry, that’s “Osama-bama-obomba-romba-bamalama-dingdong.”

  55. 55.

    tBone

    February 2, 2007 at 11:18 am

    I guess none of these people have ever been to the UKS, a small large country with a wide range of dialects, some of which to the American ear aren’t even recognizable as English.

    I’m looking at you, Deep South.

  56. 56.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 11:19 am

    mobile translators:

    The United States Army has upped its efforts to train and equip Iraqi security forces, recruiting thousands of translators to facilitate effective communication with the Iraqi people.

    The U.S. army has granted a contract management of translation and interpretation services in Iraq to Global Linguistic Solutions (GLS) worth a maximum value of $4.645 billion over 5 years.

    Err. On second thought, what were you saying about laptops? Anyhow, my answer to both plans is still the same: “Look, I think they could find a few native speakers somewhere to hold classes…”.

  57. 57.

    tBone

    February 2, 2007 at 11:21 am

    Sorry, that’s “Osama-bama-obomba-romba-bamalama-dingdong.”

    You forgot the “Hussein” in the middle.

  58. 58.

    Punchy

    February 2, 2007 at 11:22 am

    Sure hope Tehran appreciates all the hard work we’ve done taking care of their Sunni enemies.

    If Iran were smart, they’d install a puppet in Iraq and develop all their nukes in Iraq.

    Imagine…the U.S. suddenly screaming “WMDs NOW IN IRAQ!!” and nobody, and I mean NOBODY, believing them or backing them up…genius, really.

  59. 59.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 11:22 am

    My info is that the IEDs are being mass produced

    Bzzzt, does not compute! That’d be a PED, or maybe a UED, or–actually, let’s just stick with ‘bomb’, ok?

  60. 60.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 11:24 am

    That’d be a PED, or maybe a UED,

    Or, the dreaded IUD.

  61. 61.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 11:25 am

    Sorry, I was just pulling your PUD.

  62. 62.

    Teak111

    February 2, 2007 at 11:27 am

    Late to the conversation but, once Amer troops pullback, malitia leaders will cleanse baghdad of sunnis, plain and simple. Are we trying to prevent this tragedy? I guess, but how long. Maliki needs to step up and say this won’t happen. But he can’t because his army, the illusionary Iraqy army, is infiltrated with malitia members. Ah, who cares, tomorrow I’m taking my kids to Disneyland, my son’s middle school band is playing and it will be a fun day. What the hell can I do, cept vote democrat in 08. We miss, you Molly. You made the Great state of Texas proud.

  63. 63.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 11:30 am

    I’m looking at you, Deep South.

    I think you misspelled “Brooklyn”.

  64. 64.

    Jake

    February 2, 2007 at 11:31 am

    I guess none of these people have ever been to the UK, a small country with a wide range of dialects, some of which to the American ear aren’t even recognizable as English.

    Hell, the same thing occurs in the good old US of A. Especially when President Bush speaks.

  65. 65.

    Andrew

    February 2, 2007 at 11:34 am

    I don’t even mind ‘IED’ so much, when it’s an accurate description. But when the military and administration are contradicting themselves (and the pro-war press gleefully plays along) at a base semantic level on a regular basis, it’s a pretty clear indication that groupthink rules everything.

    Not that this is anything new.

  66. 66.

    tBone

    February 2, 2007 at 11:37 am

    I’m looking at you, Deep South.

    I think you misspelled “Brooklyn”.

    Point taken. :)

  67. 67.

    Lee

    February 2, 2007 at 11:43 am

    We owe it to the mideast to maintain enough force to dissuade Turkey and Iran from going in….

    Why?

    1) Pull back to Kurdistan and protect them (letting them have Kirkuk).

    2) Let Turkey and Iran kill all the others they want.

    3) PROFIT!

    /sarcarm off

    As time goes on I am caring less and less about the ‘tragedy that might occur’ and just want our forces to get the fuck out.

    Unless we are ready to start dropping nukes and killing off millions of Iraqis we no longer have the man power to pacify Iraq. So the sooner we leave the better.

    If Iran and Turkey want to sharpen there swords in Iraq, have at it.

  68. 68.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 11:58 am

    I did the math a few weeks ago and we have spent *well* over a million dollars per “bad guy” killed in Iraq. Depending on what proportion of those killed are innocent, the figure could be as high as eight to ten million per “bad guy”.

    Put that in your bong and smoke it, eh?

  69. 69.

    Wilfred

    February 2, 2007 at 11:58 am

    In other acronyms, the NIE finally came out (see TPM):

    The Intelligence Community judges that the term “civil war” does not adequately capture the complexity of the conflict in Iraq, which includes extensive Shia-on-Shia violence, al-Qa’ida and Sunni insurgent attacks on Coalition forces, and widespread criminally motivated violence. Nonetheless, the term “civil war” accurately describes key elements of the Iraqi conflict, including the hardening of ethno-sectarian identities, a sea change in the character of the violence, ethno-sectarian mobilization, and population displacements.

    Remember, just because there is a civil war doesn’t mean there’s a civil war. Because if there was a civil war it would be stupid to put even more Americans in the middle of it.

    Computer translators are useless. I make good money re-working botched Spanish and Portuguese to English translations made with software; Arabic is far more complex than either. Try putting National Intelligence Estimate into Portuguese, for example. You may get Estimativa Nacional de Inteligência, or Estimativa da Inteligência Nacional, both of which would be rendered concretely back into English as National Estimate of Intelligence.

    After 6+ years of Bush, what would you estimate?

  70. 70.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 12:01 pm

    And if you count the true cost of the Iraq war, the price per bad guy killed soars even higher than that.

    http://niemanwatchdog.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=background.view&backgroundid=00138

  71. 71.

    Punchy

    February 2, 2007 at 12:03 pm

    The prob with learning Arabic on one’s own, besides the fact that they read backwords and their alphabet involves “symbols” that a 4-year old would be embarrassed to draw, is that it would almost guarentee a visit by the CIA and entry on the no-fly list.

    Seriously, can you imagine checking out 10 books on Arabic at the library, or purchasing on Amazon the same? Your phone’d be tapped faster than you could utter “reckdkgurk fcshoolie praise Allah”, or whatever “what the?” is in Arabic…

  72. 72.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 12:06 pm

    As time goes on I am caring less and less about the ‘tragedy that might occur’ and just want our forces to get the fuck out.

    I’d like to see the troops out of Iraq too. But we are *responsible* for it. You can’t just set off a holocaust and walk away from it if you have any claim to “morality”.

  73. 73.

    Fe E

    February 2, 2007 at 12:13 pm

    I’d like to see the troops out of Iraq too. But we are responsible for it. You can’t just set off a holocaust and walk away from it if you have any claim to “morality”.

    We have entered the very defintion of “no win situation.” Just bailing out after unleashing a civil war is immoral–but if staying only makes it worse, what purpose exists in that?

    Well, at least it isn’t like modern life is pinned to ready access to a product which is only truly abundant in that region.

    Oh wait, shit. Thanks neocons!

  74. 74.

    Andrew

    February 2, 2007 at 12:17 pm

    I’d like to see the troops out of Iraq too. But we are responsible for it. You can’t just set off a holocaust and walk away from it if you have any claim to “morality”.

    This is completely and utterly wrong and this sort of thinking will get more Americans killed.

    The “holocaust” in Iraq was set off as soon as Bush decided to invade.

    There is no chance to “fix” Iraq with the present leadership.

    Morality shot its wad a long time ago.

  75. 75.

    demimondian

    February 2, 2007 at 12:21 pm

    Technically, Punchy, Arabic script is “bidirectional”. Text in the language itself is written right-to-left, but included text is written in the preferred direction of the language from which the included text is drawn. (So, a Hebrew quotation would be rtl, but a string of math is ltr, although an Arabic named item in the math would be rtl.)

    demi “and don’t get me started on Thai or Kannada” mondian

  76. 76.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 12:22 pm

    Moreover, at this point, we’ll have a better shot at fixing it by leaving–we should largely get out of Iraq and retreat to the borders, and fund the UN and anyone else who will help stabilize things.

    That is, except in Bush’s case, who would fuck that up too, at which point we should get Congress to ban us from ever setting foot in the Middle East as long as he’s President. (and incidentally that ban would probably do more to stabilize the Middle East and promote pro-American sentiment than anything Bush has ever done or will do in his life, which is probably why he wouldn’t stand for it!)

  77. 77.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 12:25 pm

    The “holocaust” in Iraq was set off as soon as Bush decided to invade.

    Who elected Bush?

    The American people.

    Try to keep the lid on with the troops we have.

    Immediately draft one million more. We can have the first of them in country in about eight to nine months.

    We inducted, trained, equipped and deployed 16 million troops in WWII for a war we didn’t even start and when the country had less than half the population it has today.

  78. 78.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 12:33 pm

    Moreover, at this point, we’ll have a better shot at fixing it by leaving—we should largely get out of Iraq and retreat to the borders, and fund the UN and anyone else who will help stabilize things.

    Nobody else has the manpower that even we have, not even close.

    There is no moral alternative but to stay and do our utmost to help the Iraqi people in any possible way we can.

  79. 79.

    Zifnab

    February 2, 2007 at 12:37 pm

    The “holocaust” in Iraq was set off as soon as Bush decided to invade.

    There is no chance to “fix” Iraq with the present leadership.

    Morality shot its wad a long time ago.

    I wouldn’t go that far. We could have successfully invaded and pacified Iraq, but as General Shinseki pointed out, we would have needed an extra 100k troops and an a higher amount of investment capital.

    We could have listend to our generals. We could have planned for Phase 4 operations. We could have sent in seasoned and experienced diplomats rather than Bush appointed political hacks. Iraq very well could have tossed off the shackles of dictatorship and assumed the political freedoms of Lebanon or Jordan at the least. But then the focus would have been on nation building, not raping the collective US and Iraq Treasures. And like Bush pointed out during the 2000 elections, he doesn’t do nation building. Just tax cuts.

    Personally, I believe the jury will be forever out on whether Iraq was the right decision, but we (minus the Darrells) can all agree that Bush was the wrong one.

  80. 80.

    Andrew

    February 2, 2007 at 12:43 pm

    Immediately draft one million more. We can have the first of them in country in about eight to nine months.

    We could have successfully invaded and pacified Iraq, but as General Shinseki pointed out, we would have needed an extra 100k troops and an a higher amount of investment capital.

    These are like the triple gainer of super-pony-rific alternate universe wishes are daisies thinking: things that did not happen, wouldn’t have happened, and will not happen.

    There’s as much hope of initiating a draft of a million men with Bush as president as there is of Jessica Biel walking into my office before I finish typing this. (Though I dearly want both to happen.)

  81. 81.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 12:44 pm

    Personally, I believe the jury will be forever out

    Well, most Americans now think it was the wrong decision, what would reverse that trend?

    “In general, do you think the Iraq war has made Americans safer from terrorism, or not?”

    Has—Has Not—Unsure

    31——64———-5

    As of about ten days ago.

  82. 82.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 12:45 pm

    Who elected Bush?

    The American people.

    Not even a plurality of them, and on false pretenses, to boot:

    “Let me tell you what else I’m worried about: I’m worried about an opponent who uses nation building and the military in the same sentence. See, our view of the military is for our military to be properly prepared to fight and win war and, therefore, prevent war from happening in the first place.” — George W. Bush, 11/06/2000

  83. 83.

    Andrew

    February 2, 2007 at 12:46 pm

    We could have successfully invaded and pacified Iraq, but as General Shinseki pointed out, we would have needed an extra 100k troops and an a higher amount of investment capital.

    I would also point out that this is not just wishful thinking, but plain wrong. We could not have invaded with 400,000 troops because we did not have them. Admitting that we would need to double the size of the active Army and pay the honestly predicted hundreds of billions would have increased opposition to the point where we would not have invaded.

    Going in to Iraq with only 150,000 troops was necessary for the war to be politically possible.

  84. 84.

    Lee

    February 2, 2007 at 12:47 pm

    Jonathan,

    I think the ‘all in’ scenario would only guarentee that we would be engaged in a war with most (if not all) of the major countries in the ME.

    Not that there’s anything wrong with that ;)

  85. 85.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 12:48 pm

    “Let me tell you what else I’m worried about: I’m worried about an opponent who uses nation building and the military in the same sentence. See, our view of the military is for our military to be properly prepared to fight and win war and, therefore, prevent war from happening in the first place.”—George W. Bush, 11/06/2000

    Well, that was then. After the coronation by the Lords of Scotus, a new George W. Bush, who had formerly only worked as a comedian, replaced the one who appeared in the campaign.

    You can see him regularly now on the Tonight Show.

  86. 86.

    Lee

    February 2, 2007 at 12:49 pm

    Going in to Iraq with only 150,000 troops was necessary for the war to be politically possible.

    QFT

  87. 87.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 12:54 pm

    Admitting that we would need to double the size of the active Army and pay the honestly predicted hundreds of billions would have increased opposition to the point where we would not have invaded.

    I doubt it–those idiots would have invaded anyhow. This war was already responsible for the largest protests ever before it even started! And then they invaded anyhow–quick, before the inspectors report back that they didn’t find WMDs! And I guarantee you that Cheney would have gone to war without authorization from the Congress–in fact, he said he would have for Gulf War I, but back then he was more marginalized by Powell and Scowcroft. For a while there, it didn’t even look like they were going to bother going to the UN, and if it wasn’t for Powell fighting for it, we probably wouldn’t have!

  88. 88.

    Tsulagi

    February 2, 2007 at 12:57 pm

    Sadr’s story has been a real pisser. Years ago you could see he was positioning for a civil war. Stayed away from the first election pretending to be a friend of the Sunni then used subsequent elections to be part of the government ostensibly controlling the police and military forces his militia members had already helped populate. Isn’t a secret now, wasn’t a secret then. Smart little fat bastard hasn’t taken a seat in the Iraqi parliament or a cabinet position himself. After us, Iraqis blame their government for their problems.

    Several years ago after Sadr’s Mahdi Army fought us killing U.S. soldiers, we issued arrest warrants for him. We went after him. Word among those in Iraq is that during one engagement we entered the building Sadr was holed up in to kill or capture when orders were received to stand down and return to base. Arrest warrants evaporated. We left Sadr pretty much alone after that.

    The decision not to take out Sadr then was a political one, not military. Chalabi whispering in the ears of Cheney and his fellow brothers in arms in the administration. You can understand why they’d be charmed by him, they’re made of the same cloth. Which is probably why after we issued arrest warrants for Chalabi after we found he sold us out to Iran, the PNAC frat boys couldn’t stay mad at him and quashed those warrants too after a little while.

    Now, it probably wouldn’t matter that much if we took Sadr out. He’s built his organization to the point where it has its own momentum. I’m sure there are plenty of clerics who’d be more than willing to step up. Remember, stay the course.

  89. 89.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 1:27 pm

    Not even a plurality of them, and on false pretenses, to boot:

    I know all about that, nevertheless it is the American people’s fault that Bush is in office. If the election was crooked it was our responsiblity to stand up and call bullshit on it as a people. If we were lied to, and we were, it was our responsibility to see through the lies. I did, why couldn’t the rest of the public and our leaders do so also?

    We allowed the media to pick a stupid, willfully ignorant, arrogant psychopath as our leader because we were too damn lazy and stupid to know any better. The evidence was out there that Bush would be a disaster, the media didn’t report it but they spent a lot of time telling us that Al Gore invented the internet and that he was the inspiration for “love story” and a ton of other false and misleading bullshit.

  90. 90.

    Faux News

    February 2, 2007 at 1:30 pm

    Tell us about the schools.

    I’m still waiting to hear about the “dancing and flowers” and “cakewalk” phase.

  91. 91.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 1:30 pm

    We allowed the media to pick a stupid, willfully ignorant, arrogant psychopath as our leader because we were too damn lazy and stupid to know any better.

    A tad melodromatic and anti-democratic (small d).

    I’d say that the Dems lost their way. They really had no inspiring message in 2000. “Don’t touch that Social Security Lockbox” was not exactly a rallying cry.

  92. 92.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 1:44 pm

    Immediately draft one million more. We can have the first of them in country in about eight to nine months.

    A million more green troops who can’t speak Arabic in a country where the locals are almost universally pissed off at the USA is a recipe for FUBAR.

    There’s no fixing this rotten egg on the ground. Stay and bleed or cut the limb off and call it quits. American reputation has been too throughly poisoned by Bushco for our troops to get a chance to make a difference anymore.

    No Mulligans in real life.

  93. 93.

    Mike

    February 2, 2007 at 1:51 pm

    We allowed the media to pick a stupid, willfully ignorant, arrogant psychopath as our leader because we were too damn lazy and stupid to know any better.

    What’s this “we” shit Tonto? You got a turd in your pocket?

    Other than that, Word.

  94. 94.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 1:52 pm

    I’d say that the Dems lost their way. They really had no inspiring message in 2000.

    Indeed. You know what the number one issue on both sides was? Cheaper prescription drugs for seniors. You know what I wanted to hear about? All that stuff they didn’t mention that actually turned out to be important. (Sorry, ThymeZone, I didn’t care about your pill prices! :))

  95. 95.

    Zifnab

    February 2, 2007 at 1:54 pm

    Going in to Iraq with only 150,000 troops was necessary for the war to be politically possible.

    I’m not arguing that. There’s possibility and political possibility. Was it possible for Bush to draft a million troops from across the US? Sure. We have 300 million citizens. We just take one out of every 300. Bam, there’s your army. Was it politically possible? … Honestly, after 9/11, if he’d said “We need a million man army to make sure this never happens again”, he could have had more troops – maybe not a million, but certainly more.

    Even with our current troop levels I think we could have done much better than we are doing today had Halliburton and Friends not been in charge of the war planning. Was it possible to plan for Phase 4 deployment? YES! Was it politically possible? I guess not.

    What we see in Iraq is the worst case senario, but I don’t believe it was inevitable by fiat. You can’t honestly claim that poop spewing from police academy fountains was a non-factor in post-combat operations. Or the vast number of weapons that just “went missing”. Or the political hacks like Maliki – who WE backed – too busy deep-throating the Shiite clergy to run the country responsibly. These things weren’t automatic. They weren’t destined. They happened because Bush and his cronies let them happen and they directly contributed to the mess we find ourselves in today.

    But responsible management of the invasion wouldn’t have engourged the right people’s pocketbooks. So it wouldn’t have been “politically” possible. In that sense, I suppose Iraq never would have been done right. I simply contend that it could have.

  96. 96.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 1:54 pm

    Immediately draft one million more.

    Wow, I didn’t even see that the first time. That is mega stupid.

  97. 97.

    Punchy

    February 2, 2007 at 1:58 pm

    if you have any claim to “morality”.

    I nearly peed myself laughing at this. Americans are finally starting to realize what 98% of the rest of the world realized 3+ years ago…

  98. 98.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 2:00 pm

    But responsible management of the invasion wouldn’t have engourged the right people’s pocketbooks. So it wouldn’t have been “politically” possible. In that sense, I suppose Iraq never would have been done right. I simply contend that it could have

    And you would be wrong. Iraq was never possible to ‘do right’ because responsible management wouldn’t have invaded in the first place. It is the rank dishonesty and incompetence that made the invasion possible which precluded any result other then complete failure.

    Better countries and leaders have tried to impose their vision on the Middle East. All have failed.

  99. 99.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 2:01 pm

    Jonathan,

    I know all about that

    Ok, so: a majority of Americans didn’t vote for Bush. More Americans voted for Gore instead. And Bush lied his ass off to get elected in the first place. Therefore:

    nevertheless it is the American people’s fault that Bush is in office

    Riiight. Blame the victim. Go on:

    If the election was crooked it was our responsiblity to stand up and call bullshit on it as a people.

    So where the hell were you? Were you organizing people? Were you on the steps of the White House, protesting? Are you not paying your taxes? Or moving to Canada? Because, you know, what we really needed was a good old fashioned revolt and/or military coup, as provided for in The Declaration of Independence–forget about Iraq, we could have had that here, so we didn’t have to fight them there! And I’m sure they had already picked out a nice little cell in Gitmo for you, too…

  100. 100.

    Punchy

    February 2, 2007 at 2:13 pm

    Immediately draft one million more.

    Wow, I didn’t even see that the first time. That is mega stupid.

    Hate to admit it, Letters, but this would be THE quickest way to end our warmongering government. Put a whole SHITLOAD of unwilling and potentially important and/or famous sons and daughters on the front line and watch how fast we suddenly dont need to start killing any more Brown guys…

  101. 101.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 2:17 pm

    A tad melodromatic and anti-democratic (small d).

    I’d say that the Dems lost their way. They really had no inspiring message in 2000. “Don’t touch that Social Security Lockbox” was not exactly a rallying cry.

    We didn’t hear about Bush’s dodging out of the ANG and failing to take his flight physical from the MSM, I knew about it before the 2k election, why didn’t they?

    We didn’t hear about Bush’s DUI until immediately before the election and even then it was played as a Democratic “trick” rather than a serious indictment of Bush’s fitness to lead the country. A DUI will ban you from a lot of jobs waaay less important than POTUS. Again, it was the MSM falling down on the job, I think deliberately.

    We didn’t hear about Bush’s terrible record as Governor of Texas from the MSM. Again, I knew it before the election, why didn’t they?

    We didn’t hear about Cheney’s DUIs from the MSM. Again, I knew it before the election, why didn’t they?

    We *did* hear practically an infinite number of times how Gore had claimed to have invented the internet, an outright lie. Again, I knew this before the election, why didn’t the MSM?

    We heard all about Gore’s supposed claim that he discovered the Love Canal toxic waste dump. I knew this was a lie before the election, why didn’t the MSM?

    We heard all about how Gore supposedly claimed he and Tipper to be the inspiration for the characters in “Love Story”. Again, I knew it was a lie before the election, why didn’t the MSM?

    That’s just a list off the top of my head, I’m sure I could find other falsehoods from the MSM that were pro Bush and anti Gore.

    Remember when it was pointed out that Bush didn’t seem all that bright and the MSM told us not to worry that he would surround himself with smart advisors? Another lie.

  102. 102.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 2:18 pm

    (Sorry, ThymeZone, I didn’t care about your pill prices! )

    Sure, I have to eat wallpaper paste to get by. Nobody cares if I live or die.

    { sobs }

    Oh ho ho, sonny, your day will come. Oh yes. Sooner than you think you will be carrying one of those Weekly Pill Reminder boxes in your pocket and standing in line at Walgreens with the rest of us.

  103. 103.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 2:19 pm

    Punchy,

    Yes, starting a real draft would effectively end our involvement in the war–that’s why you’d never get a million people sent over there in the first place.

  104. 104.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 2:20 pm

    I nearly peed myself laughing at this. Americans are finally starting to realize what 98% of the rest of the world realized 3+ years ago…

    Glad I could amuse you. :-)

    Fuckin’ pathetic aint it?

  105. 105.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 2:21 pm

    I’m sure I could find other falsehoods from the MSM

    Probably. But I don’t believe in the push-pull, cause and effect theory of MSM -> Voters.

    I think MSM is a follower and a whore, not a leader or an influencer.

    It’s not irrelevant that people rate their trust of MSM somewhat below that of mass murderers and lawyers. Sorry, lawyers.

    We live in an age of almost unimaginable information availability and ubiquity. MSM is just entertainment for a small slice of the population.

    It’s a new age. People are responsible for the food they eat and the information they consume. McDonalds, and FoxNews, are not.

  106. 106.

    Bubblegum Tate

    February 2, 2007 at 2:22 pm

    Jake nails it. It’s much more than just the guns and ammo they’re rooking. It’s the training BY US forces so that they later KNOW US forces when they battle. No wonder they’re so disgustingly effective…

    But wait, the wingnuts have confidently assured us that the sue of guerilla tactics simply means that the small cadre of Baathist dead-enders is a bunch of pansy-asses who are in the last throes of their last throes. Failure to go head up, army vs. army is a sure sign of defeat for the side that doesn’t field an army. And our army can certainly never be defeated by guerilla warfare. That has never, ever happened and never, ever will!

    We require more clapping.

    Also, tax cuts.

    Also, a ban on gay marriage. That’ll show ’em!

  107. 107.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 2:22 pm

    Remember when it was pointed out that Bush didn’t seem all that bright and the MSM told us not to worry that he would surround himself with smart advisors? Another lie.

    Worse, they propped up Cheney as the experienced statesman that would steer the young Bush down the right path. If it’s at all possible to be more than 100% wrong about something, then they were about that.

  108. 108.

    Punchy

    February 2, 2007 at 2:23 pm

    Holy Effin Christ…

    Bush just asked for–get this–$245 Billion-with-a-B bones for just the next two years of wars.

    Demi…Mr. Math…how much health care would that buy each American? How many teachers could get raises?

    I’m about to un-eat my lunch I’m so furious at this…

  109. 109.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 2:26 pm

    So where the hell were you? Were you organizing people?

    I was screaming my head off. Nobody would listen to me and I got called everything from a crank to delusional to a traitor. I live in one of the reddest of the red states, I was (and am) surrounded by people who thought Bush was the second coming of Christ.

    I wasn’t on the steps of the Supreme Court because I’m mostly disabled.

    That’s why I’m so fuckin’ poor too, and in debt so far I’ll never see daylight, especially with the Republican bankruptcy “reform”.

  110. 110.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 2:32 pm

    We live in an age of almost unimaginable information availability and ubiquity. MSM is just entertainment for a small slice of the population.

    Sorry, you are absolutely incorrect on that.

    http://www.prwatch.org/fakenews/execsummary

    Although the number of media formats and outlets has exploded in recent years, television remains the dominant news source in the United States. More than three-quarters of U.S. adults rely on local TV news, and more than 70 percent turn to network TV or cable news on a daily or near-daily basis, according to a January 2006 Harris Poll. The quality and integrity of television reporting thus significantly impacts the public’s ability to evaluate everything from consumer products to medical services to government policies.

  111. 111.

    tBone

    February 2, 2007 at 2:33 pm

    Bush just asked for—get this—$245 Billion-with-a-B bones for just the next two years of wars.

    Freedom isn’t free, moonbat. It costs a buck-oh-five. Plus $244,999,999,998.95.

  112. 112.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 2:50 pm

    Wouldn’t matter if your numbers said 100%, people think for themselves, they don’t let the media tell them what to think.

    That was my point. If that weren’t the case, support for the war wouldn’t have collapsed while MSM was still asleep.

    That’s just one example, but it’s current.

  113. 113.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 2:52 pm

    “Through clever and constant application of propaganda people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way around, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise.”
    –Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, 1923

    “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
    — Joseph Goebbels, German Minister of Propaganda, 1933-1945

    “Fascism should rightly be called corporatism as it is a merger of state and corporate power–Benito Mussolini “Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.”
    –Theodore Roosevelt, April 19, 1906

    “Once a government resorts to terror against its own population to get what it wants, it must keep using terror against its own population to get what it wants. A government that terrorizes its own people can never stop. If such a government ever lets the fear subside and rational thought return to the populace, that government is finished.”
    –Michael Rivero

    “War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today.”
    –John F. Kennedy

    The CIA is not now nor has it ever been a central intelligence agency. It is the covert action arm of the President’s foreign policy advisers. In that capacity it overthrows or supports foreign governments while reporting “intelligence” justifying those activities. It shapes its intelligence, even in such critical areas as Soviet nuclear weapons capability, to support presidential policy. Disinformation is a large part of its covert action responsibility, and the American people are the primary target of its lies.

    — Ralph McGehee, Deadly Deceits

    “The brave man inattentive to his duty, is worth little more to his country, than the coward who deserts her in the hour of danger.”

    – Andrew Jackson

  114. 114.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 2:52 pm

    Bush just asked for—get this—$245 Billion-with-a-B bones for just the next two years of wars.

    Time to get it in quick before Iraq goes further south, before more of Congress against him, and force a confrontation to shore up the base, to boot! Yep, that’s just the sort of dickish thing they’d do. Strong. Smart.

  115. 115.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 2:55 pm

    Wouldn’t matter if your numbers said 100%, people think for themselves, they don’t let the media tell them what to think.

    “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”—Joseph Goebbels, German Minister of Propaganda, 1933-1945

    Ring any bells?

  116. 116.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 2:59 pm

    Jonathan,

    I live in one of the reddest of the red states, I was (and am) surrounded by people who thought Bush was the second coming of Christ.

    D’oh! In that case, kudos to you for bothering to vote for President there in the first place.

    I wasn’t on the steps of the Supreme Court because I’m mostly disabled.

    That didn’t stop Larry Flynt, though–who, incidentally, dug up an interesting bit of dirt about George W. Bush’s past just before the election that the MSM decided to bury instead of following up on it…

    That’s why I’m so fuckin’ poor too, and in debt so far I’ll never see daylight, especially with the Republican bankruptcy “reform”.

    Yet another reason to not pay taxes and/or move to Canada, I suppose.

  117. 117.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 3:05 pm

    That didn’t stop Larry Flynt, though—who, incidentally, dug up an interesting bit of dirt about George W. Bush’s past just before the election that the MSM decided to bury instead of following up on it…

    I heard about that, although I’m pretty sure it was after the election. It is an interesting point that the story *still* hasn’t come out in the MSM.

    Larry Flynt is multimillionaire and has access to private planes and has any amount of help he needs to get wherever he wants to go. I don’t have that luxury, unfortunately.

  118. 118.

    Tsulagi

    February 2, 2007 at 3:06 pm

    Worse, they propped up Cheney as the experienced statesman that would steer the young Bush down the right path. If it’s at all possible to be more than 100% wrong about something, then they were about that.

    You got that right. Behind that self-assured, articulate persona is intelligence literally second to none competing only with Bush for the prized #1 None spot. He got a pace maker for his heart, too bad not one for his brain.

  119. 119.

    Tsulagi

    February 2, 2007 at 3:08 pm

    Bush just asked for—get this—$245 Billion-with-a-B bones for just the next two years of wars.

    Just another quarter of a TRILLION dollars. No whoop. Toss it in with the others. No price is too great to keep our petting zoos in Indiana safe.

  120. 120.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 3:14 pm

    If America walks away from the holocaust we have unleashed in Iraq we will rightfully become an international pariah.

  121. 121.

    Bubblegum Tate

    February 2, 2007 at 3:15 pm

    Time to get it in quick before Iraq goes further south, before more of Congress against him, and force a confrontation to shore up the base, to boot! Yep, that’s just the sort of dickish thing they’d do. Strong. Smart.

    Well, it would certainly expose those goddamn Defeat-o-crats, Dhimmicrats, and Peloshiites as the terrorist-worshipping America haters that they are, wouldn’t it? And isn’t that really the point of all of Bush’s proposals?

  122. 122.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 3:20 pm

    Jonathan,

    I heard about that, although I’m pretty sure it was after the election.

    Nope, check the link–apparently it first came out on Crossfire, 2-3 weeks before election day–and then they scrubbed it from the transcript a day or two after they published the transcript. Flynt tried to push it, but it fizzled. And yeah, virtually nada since. I posted about it around the time of the election, and we had a pretty good discussion about media bias.

  123. 123.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 3:21 pm

    If America walks away from the holocaust we have unleashed in Iraq we will rightfully become an international pariah.

    I think it’s a bit late for that.

  124. 124.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 3:27 pm

    Ring any bells?

    Sure. I think the Internet age has made that sort of thing beyond difficult, towards impossible now.

    Information is cheap, and everywhere. People are learning the tools, and how to sift the material.

    The age of mass gross manipulation is coming to an end.

    Why celebrate its heyday? It’s over.

  125. 125.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 3:28 pm

    If America walks away from the holocaust we have unleashed in Iraq

    Nice sloganeering, Herr Jonathan. Now if anyone can tell me what the fuck that actually means in terms of plans, measures, goals, objectives, strategies, tactics?

    Appreciate it.

  126. 126.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 3:30 pm

    Nope, check the link—apparently it first came out on Crossfire, 2-3 weeks before election day—and then they scrubbed it from the transcript a day or two after they published the transcript

    No, I meant I *heard* about it after the election. I did check the date, I think it was Oct 20.

  127. 127.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 3:41 pm

    Sure. I think the Internet age has made that sort of thing beyond difficult, towards impossible now.

    But 70% of Americans still get their news from the TV, and that study was in 2006. I suspect a lot of the rest just don’t watch news at all.

    Most of the people on the intertubes are using it for entertainment one way or another. Porn, YouTube, MySpace, gambling sites, gaming sites.

    My daughter is on the intertubes almost as much as I am, but the only time she goes seeking information is when she needs it for an assignment for the online college classes she is taking. She’s on the Dean’s list in the course she’s in so she is no dummy, she just doesn’t care to know.

    My wife is also no dummy, she’s a regional manager for a major retail chain and yet she is totally uninterested in seeking out information on the intertubes, all she does is play online games to relax and unwind. She does like The Daily Show and Colbert and so is somewhat politically aware but if it weren’t for that and what I tell her, she would be clueless.

    It is only the intellectual elite who seek out information on a regular basis. The intellectual elite is a quite small percentage of the population.

  128. 128.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 3:44 pm

    Nice sloganeering, Herr Jonathan. Now if anyone can tell me what the fuck that actually means in terms of plans, measures, goals, objectives, strategies, tactics?

    That wasn’t totally honest, cutting off the part where I said we would become an international pariah. Did you think I wouldn’t notice?

    Do you wish to claim that we *won’t* become an international pariah if we walk away from the holocaust we deliberately created?

  129. 129.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 3:54 pm

    But 70% of Americans still get their news from the TV

    Whatever you say, man.

  130. 130.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 3:55 pm

    http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/02/02/feingold/index.html

    By Senator Russ Feingold

    Feb. 2, 2007 | Congress is gearing up for a big Iraq debate next week. The Senate will take up the John Warner-Carl Levin resolution, which some are portraying as an important, symbolic rebuke of the president’s Iraq policy. Symbols can be powerful, but only if they have substance behind them. Read the fine print of the resolution itself, and you will find that it is not a rebuke at all. In parts, it reads like a reauthorization of the war, rejecting troop redeployment and specifically authorizing “vigorous operations” in part of Iraq. This resolution isn’t a symbolic rebuke of the president; instead it symbolizes a Congress that is too timid to challenge the president’s failed Iraq policy.

    Under the guise of constructive criticism, this resolution signs off on the president’s policy of maintaining military operations in Iraq indefinitely. While a resolution like this might have been all you could expect from a Republican Congress, it hardly seems like the product of a Congress under new Democratic leadership.

    After voters registered their opposition to the war last November, the new Congress was supposed to offer dramatic change. Instead, less than a month into this Congress, some members in both parties have rallied around a resolution that endorses the catastrophic status quo in Iraq.

    More:

  131. 131.

    Andrew

    February 2, 2007 at 3:56 pm

    Do you wish to claim that we won’t become an international pariah if we walk away from the holocaust we deliberately created?

    Yes. We will not become an international pariah if we walk away from the holocaust we deliberately created. Why? Because we are already an international pariah.

    Victory!

  132. 132.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 3:57 pm

    Whatever you say, man.

    I really didn’t think you would pull a Darrell.

    I’m kinda’ disappointed.

  133. 133.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 3:57 pm

    That wasn’t totally honest, cutting off the part

    Fuck off. I don’t have to quote your entire post. This has nothing to do with MY point. Yours is lost on me.

    You have quoted Goebbels twice in a short time, as if we were somehow stuck in 1935.

    It’s 2007, and this is a different time.

    You are full of crap.

    And your troll is just an act of sloganeering. Answer my question if you want to assert you are wrong, here it is:

    anyone can tell me what the fuck that actually means in terms of plans, measures, goals, objectives, strategies, tactics?

    Otherwise your post isn’t worth the pixels it is written on. Professor Irwin Corey might have said it.

  134. 134.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 3:58 pm

    I’m kinda’ disappointed.

    Jesus, not my yard man, wept.

  135. 135.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 3:59 pm

    assert you are wrong = assert I am wrong

  136. 136.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 4:01 pm

    Why? Because we are already an international pariah.

    We have a chance to at least partially redeem ourselves in the eyes of the world. Better to take that chance than completely seal our fate.

    Seven years ago the US was the moral leader in the world, rightly or wrongly, today we are a moral cripple.

    And it is due to a corrupt, lying MSM and a complacent, ignorant and stupid electorate.

  137. 137.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 4:02 pm

    Because we are already an international pariah.

    We are the Drive Thru Pariah for the whole fucking world right now.

    But you know, Geobbels said …..

    I have it right here … hold on ….

  138. 138.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 4:03 pm

    We have a chance to at least partially redeem ourselves in the eyes of the world.

    Wow, what a great goal. That will make Americans dab their eyes, and start a whole new movement.

  139. 139.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 4:03 pm

    Fuck off.

    You are full of crap.

    You lose.

  140. 140.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 4:06 pm

    If America walks away from the holocaust we have unleashed in Iraq we will rightfully become an international pariah.

    And if we stay the only difference will be a higher body count.

    Nobody wins in this game. Can we stop playing now?

  141. 141.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 4:08 pm

    I’ve already outlined the strategy.

    The tactics are those of General Petraeus.

  142. 142.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 4:09 pm

    You lose.

    Really? What do you think I lost?

    Call for the vote.

    Question before the room:

    Jonathan posts a load of crap suggesting that we are stuck in 1935 and operate according to the rules of Goebbels.

    I shit on his post.

    Vote:

    Jonathan Full of Crap __

    Shit on his post ___

    Call for the vote.

    Let me guess. Since you think Americans are “too stupid” to govern themselves, why have a vote?

    Right, assbite?

    My wife is also no dummy

    Oh sorry, you and your family are smart, it’s the rest of the people who are dolts.

  143. 143.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 4:13 pm

    The tactics are those of General Petraeus

    .

    Uh huh … so your troll is, We’ll be a “pariah” unless we follow the plan of Petraeus?

    Okay, let the fascinating discussion begin ….

  144. 144.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 4:14 pm

    You have quoted Goebbels twice in a short time, as if we were somehow stuck in 1935.

    Human nature is the same now as it was in 1935, that doesn’t change.

    The same is true of group dynamics.

    The truths of warfare are the same as they were when Sun Tzu wrote them down ~400 BCE.

    the general who wins a battle makes many calculations in his temple ere the battle is fought. The general who loses a battle makes but few calculations beforehand. Thus do many calculations lead to victory, and few calculations to defeat: how much more no calculation at all! It is by attention to this point that I can foresee who is likely to w in or lose.

    -Sun Tzu, the Art of War

    We are losing because Rumsfeld did not allow his generals to make the necessary calculations.

  145. 145.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 4:17 pm

    -Sun Tzu, the Art of War

    Oh brother. It’s the Platitude Channel.

    Give me the remote, please.

  146. 146.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 4:17 pm

    Jonathan Full of Crap

    Shit on his post _

    You are really impressing me with your eloquence.

    I’m sure the lurkers are impressed too.

  147. 147.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 4:19 pm

    I’m sure the lurkers are impressed too.

    Who gives a fuck?

    You are full of crap. Your dismissive bullshit can’t change that, compadre.

    Call for the vote.

  148. 148.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 4:19 pm

    Oh brother. It’s the Platitude Channel.

    Sun Tzu is still studied in military academies around the world, as is Carl von Clausewitz.

  149. 149.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 4:21 pm

    No problem.

    OK, vote everyone.

    Who is making a better case, me or ThymeZone?

    Who is acting more like an adult, me or ThymeZone?

  150. 150.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 4:23 pm

    Sun Tzu is still studied in military academies around the world, as is Carl von Clausewitz.

    OMFG, it’s another character being written by John Cole’s class.

    I must say, it’s a hoot.

    Funny stuff, “Jonathan.”

    Oookay, checking our TV Listings to see what’s on while this clown figures out that he has lost the attention of yet another audience……

  151. 151.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 4:26 pm

    Godwin’s law swings it to ThymeZone.

    And Jonathan, if you’re really interested in the numbers and demographics, check out Pew’s Typology Groups, I can’t speak highly enough of them. And incidentally, you’re right about the elites (in both parties) being the ones who are most likely to (and most closely) follow the governmental and political news. And yes, the rabid Bush supporters watch Fox News the most, whereas the Liberals are the most likely to go to the internet for news.

  152. 152.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 4:27 pm

    The Goebbels Fan Club Stampede Has Begun!

    Welcome to the Class of 1935!!

    Herr Jonathan, the floor is yours………

  153. 153.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 4:28 pm

    Oookay, checking our TV Listings to see what’s on while this clown figures out that he has lost the attention of yet another audience……

    Why should I care about the audience?

    I have made my case with facts and logic.

    You have presented no facts and very little logic, merely abuse.

    I like it when my opponent becomes abusive because that shows they have lost their temper and have no reply other than abuse.

  154. 154.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 4:31 pm

    Why should I care about the audience?

    I dunno, you tell me?

    I’m sure the lurkers are impressed too. — Jonathan

    Oh, I forgot, you are the guy who thinks that the people are too stupid to understand reality and that they just herd like cattle before their cable news feeding troughs, right?

    So no, you shouldn’t care about the audience. Unless your wife is in it, and then we should because she is so smart.

  155. 155.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 4:32 pm

    You have presented no facts

    Just one: Your bullshit “pariah” post was a troll.

    That’s a fact, asshole. And everybody here knows it.

    Nothing else really matters, does it?

  156. 156.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 4:33 pm

    have no reply other than abuse.

    Ridicule is not abuse, butthead. What are you, in Kindergarten?

    Nut up.

  157. 157.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 4:36 pm

    Godwin’s law swings it to ThymeZone.

    Godwin’s law does not say what you think it does.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

    And besides, I made no comparisons, I merely used Goebbels as an authority on propaganda, which he is.

    The typology site is fascinating, I’m taking the test now.

  158. 158.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 4:37 pm

    I have made my case with facts and logic.

    Well, at the least, you have interspersed some facts and logic along with your case–but a lot of it has just consisted of bald assertions. Of course, it’s fine to have opinions, but I often found myself disagreeing even with the premise–and politically, we seem to be more or less on the same side, so go figure. So the case needs work. As for ThymeZone, he hasn’t been making much of a case as such in this thread–thus, less work required to shore it up.

  159. 159.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 4:38 pm

    We are losing because Rumsfeld did not allow his generals to make the necessary calculations.

    Wrong.

    This war was lost the moment the decision was made to start it in the first place. Everything after that was just playing catch up. Stop trying to find the Pony.

  160. 160.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 4:39 pm

    Ridicule is not abuse, butthead. What are you, in Kindergarten?

    More abuse does not further your argument.

  161. 161.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 4:41 pm

    Godwin’s law does not say what you think it does.

    Actually, it does, because I know what it says–how’d ya like them apples? Similarly, Moore’s Law technically had to do with transistors, but that’s often not how it’s used in practice, nowadays.

    The typology site is fascinating, I’m taking the test now.

    Odds are, you’re a liberal too.

  162. 162.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 4:41 pm

    I merely used Goebbels as an authority on propaganda, which he is.

    He was, in 1935. But he’s really got nothing on you.

    You de authority on propaganda. I seen your work.

    Hey, let’s be friends. 72 years too late is really not all that bad a miss. Hell, I still quote Lincoln.

    Abe, I mean.

  163. 163.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 4:41 pm

    Well, at the least, you have interspersed some facts and logic along with your case—but a lot of it has just consisted of bald assertions.

    What bald assertions have I made, other than America is on the way to becoming an international pariah?

    Do you disagree that America is on the way to becoming an international pariah?

  164. 164.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 4:43 pm

    More abuse does not further your argument.

    Wow, you are really bad at this.

    Ridicule is not abuse. Unless you’re a child.

  165. 165.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 4:44 pm

    Do you disagree that America is on the way to becoming an international pariah?

    Read the fucking thread, asked and answered.

  166. 166.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 4:44 pm

    Godwin’s Law (also known as Godwin’s Rule of Nazi Analogies) is a mainstay of Internet culture, an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states: “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.”

    As you can see, Godwin’s law does *not* state that he who first brings up Nazi’s loses the argument.

  167. 167.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 4:47 pm

    Godwin’s law does not state that he who first brings up Nazi’s loses the argument.

    No, but Schnerdnagle’s Law states that the biggest horse’s ass loses the argument.

    Point to me.

    (Arcane reference, you might not find it :-))

  168. 168.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 4:48 pm

    What bald assertions have I made, other than America is on the way to becoming an international pariah?

    Uh, how about this one?

    There is no moral alternative but to stay and do our utmost to help the Iraqi people in any possible way we can.

    You keep ignoring that it’s *too* *late* to help. More troops will only add to the body count at this point. The egg is broken, it stinks and the best we can hope for is that when we wash our hands of it the stench will not stick.

  169. 169.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 4:48 pm

    What bald assertions have I made

    Where to begin… I think my favorite was the first one, actually, about training all the trigger-pullers in Arabic by buying them laptops and language software.

    Do you disagree that America is on the way to becoming an international pariah?

    Yes, I did, in fact. See above, I think we’re way past that point. In fact, check out this story:

    “I thought it had bottomed out a year ago, but it’s gotten worse, and we really are at historic lows,” said Steven Kull, director of the Program on International Policy Attitudes. Kull attributed much of the problem to a growing perception of “hypocrisy” on the part of the United States in such areas as cooperation with the United Nations and other international bodies, especially involving the use of military force.

    “The thing that comes up repeatedly is not just anger about Iraq,” Kull said, adding that the BBC poll is consistent with numerous other surveys around the world that have measured attitudes toward the United States. “The common theme is hypocrisy. The reaction tends to be: ‘You were a champion of a certain set of rules. Now you are breaking your own rules, so you are being hypocritical.’ “

  170. 170.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 4:56 pm

    There is no moral alternative but to stay and do our utmost to help the Iraqi people in any possible way we can.

    You keep ignoring that it’s too late to help. More troops will only add to the body count at this point. The egg is broken, it stinks and the best we can hope for is that when we wash our hands of it the stench will not stick.

    More troops will add to the US body count true. Are American lives worth more than Iraqi lives?

    Do you think the majority of Iraqis are not worth saving from the extremists?

    Or do you think that the majority of Iraqis are extremists themselves?

    The US should play Pontius Pilate then?

    He was not a particularly sympathetic figure.

    And no, the stench will not wash off, it will only become worse.

  171. 171.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 4:59 pm

    Are American lives worth more than Iraqi lives?

    False choice. If we can’t stabilize Iraq, then staying longer will only result in more deaths on both sides, as Iraq will fall apart once we leave. Therefore, leaving now will result in the least possible loss of life, on both sides.

  172. 172.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 4:59 pm

    Where to begin… I think my favorite was the first one, actually, about training all the trigger-pullers in Arabic by buying them laptops and language software.

    Do you disagree that being able to speak the local language at least haltingly would be helpful to troops engaged in a COIN operation?

    Keep in mind that COIN operations are very much like police work. How effective would police be if they couldn’t speak the local language?

  173. 173.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 5:02 pm

    Your search – Schnerdnagle’s Law – did not match any documents.

  174. 174.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 5:02 pm

    And no, the stench will not wash off, it will only become worse.

    Sound effect: Thunder

    Lights: Flash, then dark.

    Curtain falls.

    Music: Up, finale.

    House lights up.

  175. 175.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 5:05 pm

    Schnerdnagle’s Law – did not match any documents.

    Hard to find. Obscure.

    It’s a MYL reference, really.

  176. 176.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 5:08 pm

    False choice. If we can’t stabilize Iraq, then staying longer will only result in more deaths on both sides, as Iraq will fall apart once we leave. Therefore, leaving now will result in the least possible loss of life, on both sides.

    You say *if* we can’t stabilize Iraq. If we cannot do so, then it is our moral obligation to stay and maintain what stability we can, for as long as it takes.

    Do you believe that the majority of the Iraqi people are fanatics who are not worth saving?

    Do you think that Iraqis are somehow a different sort of human being than Americans?

  177. 177.

    chopper

    February 2, 2007 at 5:11 pm

    i love it when TZ goes off his anger meds. it all happens at once, too.

  178. 178.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 5:11 pm

    Why in the hell was it our responsibility to go save the world again? And if we broke it, does that mean we are most absolutely responsible to fix it? Perhaps nothing we do fixes it? Wouldn’t it be better for Iraqis to fix it? Financial help, yes… why do we have to go over and do it ourselves?

    Oh that’s right, I forgot, we gotta make Baghdad look like New York.

    NOT!

  179. 179.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 5:12 pm

    As a liberal I belive in moral obligations.

    As a Marine I learned that personal honor is the most important thing that a human being can have.

    I believe we have a moral obligation to fix that which we deliberately broke.

    Does anyone disagree with that statement?

  180. 180.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 5:12 pm

    Do you disagree that being able to speak the local language at least haltingly would be helpful to troops engaged in a COIN operation?

    No, I disagree with your original proposal, because I think it’d be unrealistic, unreasonable, and ineffective. I also proposed a pretty obvious alternative. In short:

    * You don’t need to train everyone
    * You don’t need to use laptops and software — we’ve got native speakers already there, for crissakes!
    * Having a bunch of people on a mission who can’t really speak the language is not nearly as useful as having a few people who can speak it decently.

  181. 181.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 5:13 pm

    You say if we can’t stabilize Iraq. If we cannot do so, then it is our moral obligation to stay and maintain what stability we can, for as long as it takes.

    You are a spoof, right?

    Uh no, we are not going to have perma-peacekeeping in Iraq. First, it won’t work, second, the American people are fed up with Iraq. The Iraqis are going to have to show some ability to maintain their own stability, pronto. They are going to be on their own soon.

    We’ll keep up the charade only as long as it is necessary for political cover in the US. Which won’t be long. By fall 2008, if this shit is still going on, any candidate outside of Idaho and Mississippi who doesn’t take a stand against this bullshit, is toast.

    Do you think that Iraqis are somehow a different sort of human being than Americans?

    Hey great beginner’s troll question. Maybe you can find a list of fools who can be trolled by such crap?

    What a fucking wanker.

  182. 182.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 5:13 pm

    i love it when TZ goes off his anger meds. it all happens at once, too.

    If you only knew what he was saying in e-mail, you’d be amazed at the level of control that man has.

  183. 183.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 5:13 pm

    i love it when TZ goes off his anger meds. it all happens at once, too.

    Kiss me.

  184. 184.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 5:16 pm

    And if we broke it, does that mean we are most absolutely responsible to fix it?

    If you are an honorable person you fix what you break, or you spend the rest of your life trying.

    Do you wish your country to do the honorable thing?

    Or do you think that honor is an outmoded concept?

  185. 185.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 5:16 pm

    You say if we can’t stabilize Iraq. If we cannot do so, then it is our moral obligation to stay and maintain what stability we can, for as long as it takes.

    Do you believe that the majority of the Iraqi people are fanatics who are not worth saving?

    Do you think that Iraqis are somehow a different sort of human being than Americans?

    Ok, enough of that–I can play this bullshit game too:

    Do you believe in maximizing the number of dead Iraqis and Americans in the long run?

    Do you believe in destroying the economic foundations of Iraq and the United States, thus resulting in further world instability and depression?

    Do you think that everyone else here is really an evil green reptillian creature?

    Do you want everyone to die?!

    etc., etc.

  186. 186.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 5:17 pm

    Define fixing it Jonathan. What does that include?

  187. 187.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 5:18 pm

    If you are an honorable person you fix what you break, or you spend the rest of your life trying.

    That’s it.

    Spoof alert. Sensors maxed out.

    Spoof sprinklers — on.

    Spoof alarm sent to security company.

    Spoof warning issued by DHS — Orange.

    Fuck me, I’ve been sucked in by another one.

  188. 188.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 5:19 pm

    Do you like false choices?

    Or are you a traitor?

  189. 189.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 5:20 pm

    Fuck me, I’ve been sucked in by another one.

    And, I mean this in the most loving way.

  190. 190.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 5:20 pm

    You don’t need to use laptops and software—we’ve got native speakers already there, for crissakes!

    The native translators cannot be trusted, how do we know that they are not insurgents themselves?

    Any translator working with the Americans is in severe peril for his life if he is *not* an insurgent.

  191. 191.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 5:20 pm

    ThymeZone,

    Well remember, Jonathan–as an American–is responsible for Bush being elected. Therefore, he’s still got a long ways to go to fix that, but now I fully expect him to die trying.

  192. 192.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 5:20 pm

    Are American lives worth more than Iraqi lives?

    Are Iraqi lives worth more then American lives?

    If we cannot do so, then it is our moral obligation to stay and maintain what stability we can, for as long as it takes.

    Shorter Jonathan: We must stay in Iraq forever.

    Do you believe that the majority of the Iraqi people are fanatics who are not worth saving?

    Strawman. We *can’t* save the Iraqis. It’s *too* *late*. They’re going to fight it out and the entire US military is not going to stop them from doing it. At this point we can only stop adding to the body count.

    Do you think that Iraqis are somehow a different sort of human being than Americans?

    Darrelling Foul. Credibility -5.

    The problem is this, Jonathan, we can’t trust *ANY* *SIDE* in Iraq. Even the Iraqis nominally on our side are putting their own self interests over that of the long term interests of Iraq as a country. It’s all going to hell and we’re not stopping it, not even really slowing it down anymore.

    No mulligans. No second chances.

  193. 193.

    tBone

    February 2, 2007 at 5:22 pm

    I’ve already outlined the strategy.

    The tactics are those of General Petraeus.

    Do you disagree that being able to speak the local language at least haltingly would be helpful to troops engaged in a COIN operation?

    The counterinsurgency doctrine, the much higher troop levels, many more trained Arabic speakers, etc. – all of that would have been great . . . back in 2003, before we invaded.

    We’re four years on now, the genie is out of the bottle, and she ain’t going back in. None of the strategies you’ve mentioned are going to be implemented, or at least not implemented in a way that will give them any chance of success. Hence the flak you’re taking in this thread. Everyone is tired of talking about ponies. How about we talk about reality?

  194. 194.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 5:24 pm

    Do you wish your country to do the honorable thing?

    Yes, but if you look back over the last 30 years, little of what we have done is honorable.

    Or do you think that honor is an outmoded concept?

    I think nothing we will do will be honorable and it’s time to go home and leave Iraqis to create their new reality. I think we should pay for the damage, but stop creating the damage. Got it?

  195. 195.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 5:24 pm

    now I fully expect him to die trying.

    He’ll be missed.

  196. 196.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 5:24 pm

    The native translators cannot be trusted, how do we know that they are not insurgents themselves?

    That’s the least of our worries–the Iraqi security forces can’t be trusted. But we also have Iraqi refugees from other countries and Iraqi-Americans that we could hire on and bring in as translators. Or, we could hire on native Iraqis that we do trust, and promise to take care of them–but odds are, we don’t trust them because they don’t trust us. (The ones that do trust us are most likely to be Kurds, followed by Shia, and then there’s the occasional Sunni.)

  197. 197.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 5:24 pm

    The native translators cannot be trusted, how do we know that they are not insurgents themselves?

    Any translator working with the Americans is in severe peril for his life if he is not an insurgent.

    Shorter Johnathan: The Iraqis willing to work for us must be either the enemy or stupid. We must kill them all just to be safe.

  198. 198.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 5:25 pm

    TZ goes off his anger meds. it all happens at once

    I like those quick-dissolve antipsychotics.

    I get them at the animal hospital.

  199. 199.

    Andrew

    February 2, 2007 at 5:26 pm

    I’m writing Jonathan. I admit it. This character will probably protest that I’m not, but that’s just very clever writing on my part.

  200. 200.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 5:27 pm

    I like those quick-dissolve antipsychotics.

    I get them at the animal hospital.

    Oh gosh, you didn’t tell me about those pills.

  201. 201.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 5:28 pm

    Oh gosh, you didn’t tell me about those pills.

    Well, I’m really an animal when you get to know me.

  202. 202.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 5:29 pm

    Speaking of which … did you all see the Onion article where Bush announced he was sending One More Troop to Iraq?

    I think that’s the way to do these things.

  203. 203.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 5:31 pm

    Well, I’m really an animal when you get to know me.

    ::purr::

  204. 204.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 5:32 pm

    Sorry, that One Troop is headed for Afghanistan, not Iraq.

    Not a policy shift, just a minor error on my part.

  205. 205.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 5:35 pm

    Define fixing it Jonathan. What does that include?

    Bringing the level of sectarian violence down to the minimum level possible.

    Repairing the infrastructure so that Iraqi’s can have at least a minimum of basic utilities such as running water and electricity that stays on more than a couple of hours a day.

    Reaching a political settlement that will allow Iraqis to gradually take over the control of the country.

    That would be a start, obviously there is more that needs to be done.

    With enough troops in country, it can be done.

    I was violently against the invasion right from the very start, but now we are there and have deliberately broken the country it is our honorable obligation to do our utmost to fix it. No matter how much or how long it takes.

    Marines have honor, we do not leave a brother Marine on the battlefield injured, we risk and if necessary sacrifice our lives to get him to safety. If our orders are to assault an impregnable position we assault it, no matter the risk or cost.

    I have carried that honor code with me ever since 1971 when I was discharged from the Corps. I am applying it now to the situation we have deliberately created in Iraq.

    I didn’t vote for George Bush and I think he was unconstitutionally installed. Nevertheless, it is our obligation as an honorable nation to fix that which he broke.

  206. 206.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 5:35 pm

    I’m writing Jonathan. I admit it.

    Absolutely awesome job. Some of the best spoof we’ve seen in here. This is DougJ – GOP4Me grade material.

    I am honored to know ye.

  207. 207.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 5:35 pm

    Sorry TZ, I’ll stop purring long enough so you can keep your head ;)

  208. 208.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 5:37 pm

    No matter how much or how long it takes.

    See, all it takes is one gaffe to blow two weeks worth of fine quality spoofapalooza right out the dirthole.

    Too bad. It was like watching a great movie.

  209. 209.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 5:39 pm

    Sorry TZ, I’ll stop purring long enough so you can keep your head

    I think our friend Jonathan is the one who is trying to give us head.

    Disgusting thought, but …. there it is.

  210. 210.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 5:40 pm

    With enough troops in country, it can be done.

    I’ll tell you right now, there’s simply no way that will happen. Either we’ll send too few troops to get the job done, or we’ll leave–we can run through whatever scenarios you like, but the political will isn’t there, and Operation Blame The Iraqis started a long time ago. I figure the best thing we actually can do at this point is redeploy most of our troops outside of Iraq, tamp down what violence we can, try to get a real UN peacekeeping force in there, and also help with the growing refugee crisis.

  211. 211.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 5:43 pm

    I know what I’m calling for is not going to happen. The American people are too craven to allow it.

    The US had 407,000 dead troops in WWII, a war which we did not choose to start. At the time the population of the US was 133 million.

    Now we have just over 3,000 dead troops in a war which we deliberately chose to start over lies. Now the population of the US is just over 300 million.

    We really have lost a lot of honor since WWII, I guess they really were the “Greatest Generation”.

  212. 212.

    Andrew

    February 2, 2007 at 5:44 pm

    I’m basing Jonathan on the Gunnery Sergeant Tom Highway, the Marine character played by Clint Eastwood in Heartbreak Ridge.

    Before my ruse was discovered, I was going to introduce a second Marine character based on Damon Wayan’s Major Payne, with whom Jonathan would agree with on almost everything.

  213. 213.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 5:45 pm

    Bringing the level of sectarian violence down to the minimum level possible.

    The sectarian violence will certainly not get better while we’re stirring the pot. The fact that we are there is a sticking point.

    Repairing the infrastructure so that Iraqi’s can have at least a minimum of basic utilities such as running water and electricity that stays on more than a couple of hours a day.

    It has taken us almost five freakin’ years to do this, WHY? Don’t you think we could have trained enough Iraqis to do this job? Perhaps if we left, the utilities might stand a better chance of staying on.

    Reaching a political settlement that will allow Iraqis to gradually take over the control of the country.

    Hmmm, version 3.0?

    That would be a start, obviously there is more that needs to be done.

    With enough troops in country, it can be done.

    With enough troops in country, we create more disaster each day. We are not there to fix anything. Are you out of your mind?

    I was violently against the invasion right from the very start, but now we are there and have deliberately broken the country it is our honorable obligation to do our utmost to fix it. No matter how much or how long it takes.

    Job training for Iraqis (such as utility works), financial help, and giving them space to solve their issues, as I see it, is the only thing that will work. Armies are not there to solve problems, they are there to stir violence.

    Marines have honor, we do not leave a brother Marine on the battlefield injured, we risk and if necessary sacrifice our lives to get him to safety. If our orders are to assault an impregnable position we assault it, no matter the risk or cost.

    I have carried that honor code with me ever since 1971 when I was discharged from the Corps. I am applying it now to the situation we have deliberately created in Iraq.

    Emotional point that has simply NOTHING to do with what we are speaking about.

    I didn’t vote for George Bush and I think he was unconstitutionally installed. Nevertheless, it is our obligation as an honorable nation to fix that which he broke.

    What makes you think we can do anything right over there when everything we’ve done has been wrong?

  214. 214.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 5:46 pm

    Awesome post, Rome.

  215. 215.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 5:50 pm

    Andrew, what the HELL will it take to get you join our mail list?

    I will change deodorant if you insist.

    What? WHAT??

  216. 216.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 5:51 pm

    America has become a nation of cowards. We were all for war when we thought it would be quick, easy and cheap. Now that we see that we have bitten off more than we can easily chew we are like a bully who has what he thought to be a weaker child suddenly turn on him and he runs away in fright.

    We are fat, lazy, selfish, ignorant, stupid and lack any sense of honor.

    At least the damn righties whom I hate have enough honor to wish to stay the course in a fight we chose to pick.

    I’m disgusted with my fellow liberals.

  217. 217.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 5:52 pm

    Awesome post, Rome.

    Why thank you TZ, I am to please ;)

  218. 218.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 5:53 pm

    America has become a nation of cowards. We were all for war when we thought it would be quick, easy and cheap.

    Perhaps YOU were, I never was.

  219. 219.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 5:54 pm

    We are fat, lazy, selfish, ignorant, stupid and lack any sense of honor humor, especially in my case.

    Yeah, yeah. I am 6′ tall, 165 lbs, hard worker, generous, smart and educated, and ethical to a fault.

    You must be describing yourself. But not your smart wife.

  220. 220.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 5:57 pm

    The Iraqis willing to work for us must be either the enemy or stupid. We must kill them all just to be safe

    Where did I mention killing anyone?

    All I said was they are not to be trusted, with good reason I think.

    Even the hawks like McCain are having second thoughts about combined Iraqi American operations.

  221. 221.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 5:58 pm

    The US had 407,000 dead troops in WWII, a war which we did not choose to start. At the time the population of the US was 133 million.

    Now we have just over 3,000 dead troops in a war which we deliberately chose to start over lies. Now the population of the US is just over 300 million.

    Sounds like you don’t put very much value into the life of one person. I’m a swords into plowshares person myself. We are all afforded a chance to live a life on this earth, why do we spend it playing stupid war games?

  222. 222.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 5:59 pm

    Yeah, yeah. I am 6’ tall, 165 lbs, hard worker, generous, smart and educated, and ethical to a fault.

    On the intertubes no knows you’re a dog.

  223. 223.

    jg

    February 2, 2007 at 5:59 pm

    All I said was they are not to be trusted, with good reason I think

    Yes. And we’re the reason. Which is why we can do nothing but more damage over there. We’re not going to nation build by trying harder.

  224. 224.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 6:03 pm

    I know what I’m calling for is not going to happen.

    Great. Next topic?

    The US had 407,000 dead troops in WWII, a war which we did not choose to start.

    No, but there’s really no comparison all around. We weren’t attacked (by Iraq), Saddam was no Hitler, and Bush is no FDR (or even an Eisenhower). No, what’s going on now looks much more like another war entirely.

  225. 225.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 6:05 pm

    America has become a nation of cowards. We were all for war when we thought it would be quick, easy and cheap. Now that we see that we have bitten off more than we can easily chew we are like a bully who has what he thought to be a weaker child suddenly turn on him and he runs away in fright.

    Shorter Jonathan: Darrell! Darrell Darrell!

    We are fat, lazy, selfish, ignorant, stupid and lack any sense of honor.

    Shorter Jonathan: ME! ME!

    At least the damn righties whom I hate have enough honor to wish to stay the course in a fight we chose to pick.

    Shorter Jonathan: Stupid dirty hippies, why won’t you make a big mistake worse?

    I’m disgusted with my fellow liberals.

    Shorter Jonathan: I like to dress up strawmen and call them liberals. Sometimes I spank them.

  226. 226.

    Punchy

    February 2, 2007 at 6:05 pm

    I gotta vote here for Jonathon, as he’s been in the military and fought these battles. Never f*ck with a Marine, and all that. History of war most likely on his side (although I havent the time to peruse the entire thread)…is the first 200+ thread thats got NO Darrell in it? is this a first?

  227. 227.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 6:07 pm

    It has taken us almost five freakin’ years to do this, WHY? Don’t you think we could have trained enough Iraqis to do this job? Perhaps if we left, the utilities might stand a better chance of staying on.

    Insufficient troops to maintain order and guard the infrastructure.

    Shinseki was right, we needed several hundred thousand troops to occupy Iraq. It is the fault of Rumsfeld and Bush that this disaster has ocurred. But they will never pay any price, they will retire to their estates with their pensions and in Bush’s case with their lifetime Secret Service protection.

    Instead it is the Iraqi people and the American people who will pay the price.

    http://niemanwatchdog.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=background.view&backgroundid=00138

    Two scholars, one a Nobel Prize winner, revisit their estimate of the true cost of the Iraq war – and find that $2 trillion was too low. They consider not only the current and future budgetary costs, but the economic impact of lives lost, jobs interrupted and oil prices driven higher by political uncertainty in the Middle East.

  228. 228.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 6:09 pm

    All I said was they are not to be trusted, with good reason I think.

    Even the hawks like McCain are having second thoughts about combined Iraqi American operations.

    Shorter Johnathan: We must save the Iraqis, but we can’t trust them. We must treat them as equals except when they’re working with us. Iraqis are not the enemy, but they are not our friends.

  229. 229.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 6:10 pm

    But they will never pay any price, they will retire to their estates with their pensions and in Bush’s case with their lifetime Secret Service protection.

    We’ll see. We’ll see.

  230. 230.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 6:11 pm

    Stupid dirty hippies, why won’t you make a big mistake worse?

    LOL, I became a dirty fucking hippy after I got out of the Corps. In many ways I’m still a dirty fucking hippy.

    I believe in peace and love, but I also believe in honor.

  231. 231.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 6:11 pm

    Insufficient troops to maintain order and guard the infrastructure.

    Shinseki was right, we needed several hundred thousand troops to occupy Iraq. It is the fault of Rumsfeld and Bush that this disaster has ocurred. But they will never pay any price, they will retire to their estates with their pensions and in Bush’s case with their lifetime Secret Service protection.

    Instead it is the Iraqi people and the American people who will pay the price.

    As long as our artillery is over there, that infrastructure stands no chance of being repaired permanently. Don’t you get it?

  232. 232.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 6:13 pm

    We weren’t attacked (by Iraq),

    That’s *exactly* my point. We were the attackers of innocent people.

    Why is that so hard to get through everyone’s head?

  233. 233.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 6:13 pm

    I believe in peace and love, but I also believe in honor.

    There is no honor to be found in the Iraq war or occupation. None.

    All honor is now is a figleaf to cloak the Bush demand that our troops stay and bleed until it can be dumped on a Democratic President.

  234. 234.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 6:14 pm

    I believe in peace and love, but I also believe in honor.

    Okay Jonathan, you’ve got two scales of justice standing in front of you. One one you have peace and love. On the other you have honor. Which do you choose?

  235. 235.

    dreggas

    February 2, 2007 at 6:15 pm

    Jonathan Says:

    America has become a nation of cowards. We were all for war when we thought it would be quick, easy and cheap. Now that we see that we have bitten off more than we can easily chew we are like a bully who has what he thought to be a weaker child suddenly turn on him and he runs away in fright.

    We are fat, lazy, selfish, ignorant, stupid and lack any sense of honor.

    At least the damn righties whom I hate have enough honor to wish to stay the course in a fight we chose to pick.

    I’m disgusted with my fellow liberals.

    Zell? Zell Miller is that you?

    Listen up and listen damn good Jonathan. I didn’t allow this war to happen and I damn sure didn’t vote fore the fucktard in chief. As an American I resent the fact that you sit here and try and tell me I am fat and lazy and craven because of the fact that I support pulling our people out which is the only way to bring the rest of the world in.

    Staying the course to prevent it from getting worse is a foold errand. Let me enlighten you on a bit of History. Iraq as a country with borders has existed very, very briefly and was carved into what it is now by the brits who had absolutely no clue about the peoples there either. Then end result? Shia to the east (near Iran), Sunni to the west and kurd to the north. The only thing controlling that holding that mess together was the Saddam and thanks to a fool with an oedipus complex and severe insecurities the lynch pin was pulled out and now the shit that would have hit the fan if Saddam wasn’t there is hitting the fan now.

    We have reports that the people we are “protecting” and “training” to protect themselves are the ones using said weapons and training against us and somehow we’re supposed to just stay there and say “thank you may I have some more?”

    You sit their on your self-righteous high horse and claim that it’s my fault that we have a leader that ain’t worth the flesh he’s printed on? That I, a voting American Citizen am responsible when I voted for the other guy? I’ll tell ya what why don’t we just arm shrub and dead-eye and the rest of the people who ARE responsible for this and let them go over there and fix it.

    In short I didn’t break a damn thing nor did I enable this shithead. You want to be disappointed in something, be disappointed in the people who ran this show and who have been. Be disappointed in the fuckheads in Congress on both sides who authorized this shit (which btw Bush has maintained he would not have gone for if it wasn’t for the political cover…that’s right Jonny he was gonna invade no matter what).

    Be disappointed in and pissed off at the assholes currently laundering my tax dollars through this war machine while reaping profits from their investments in the corps making money on this shit. But don’t you DARE sit there and think you are above me and that I am worthy of ridicule just because I am an American. You can sit their and bloviate all you want but let the rest of us work on ways to untarnish our reputation at home and abroad and the first order of business for that is getting the fuck out of the quicksand that is Iraq.

  236. 236.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 6:16 pm

    Oh, by the way, no one has admitted I was right about Godwin’s law.

    I notice that got dropped like a hot potato.

    Y’all are always on Darrell because he won’t admit when he is wrong but you are no better.

  237. 237.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 6:16 pm

    Job training for Iraqis (such as utility works), financial help, and giving them space to solve their issues, as I see it, is the only thing that will work.

    And of course we did the opposite–we disbanded their military, brought in our own contractors, and threw money at them. The unemployment rate is unreal, as is the inflation rate.

  238. 238.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 6:17 pm

    Oh, by the way, no one has admitted I was right about Godwin’s law.

    Yeah, there’s a reason for that. If you read my replies, then maybe we could have a conversation.

  239. 239.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 6:19 pm

    Why is that so hard to get through everyone’s head?

    Apparently, it’s not. But I have no idea what’s going on in your head, and I think I want to keep it that way.

  240. 240.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 6:19 pm

    What dreggas said.

  241. 241.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 6:19 pm

    Jonathan is a concern troll on steroids.

    I may be a dog, dude, but that would mean you are losing this match to a dog.

    What kind of dog do you think I am, Jonny? Pekinese? Chow? Mexican hairless? Shitzu?

  242. 242.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 6:20 pm

    Ditto, fine post by dreggas.

    And, Arf!

  243. 243.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 6:20 pm

    Okay Jonathan, you’ve got two scales of justice standing in front of you. One one you have peace and love. On the other you have honor. Which do you choose?

    False dillema.

    You can strive for peace and love while simultaneously upholding honor.

    If we were an honorable people who believed in peace and love we would never have attacked Iraq in the first place.

  244. 244.

    tBone

    February 2, 2007 at 6:22 pm

    Andrew, what the HELL will it take to get you join our mail list?

    I will change deodorant if you insist.

    You’d be doing all of us a favor, Andrew. None of us wanted to tell him.

  245. 245.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 6:22 pm

    Y’all are always on Darrell because he won’t admit when he is wrong but you are no better.

    Shorter Johnathan: You are all DougJ! Admit it!

  246. 246.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 6:22 pm

    False dillema.

    You should know! All trolls know how to construct a false dillema, right Johnny?

  247. 247.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 6:22 pm

    Except your honor would kill people. That is not peace and love.

  248. 248.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 6:23 pm

    You can strive for peace and love while simultaneously upholding honor.

    How about “victory with honor”? That’s your plan, right?

  249. 249.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 6:25 pm

    If we were an honorable people who believed in peace and love we would never have attacked Iraq in the first place.

    And if Ponies were Strawberries dancing in the Sky the Sugarplum fairies would pixiedust the problems away.

    Stop looking for Ponies. Stop telling us to look for Ponies. And stop beating the dead one.

  250. 250.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 6:26 pm

    Johnny, this is me.

    I am pleased to meet you.

    Where’s that smart wife of yours? Does she have a leg?

  251. 251.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 6:27 pm

    And if Ponies were Strawberries dancing in the Sky the Sugarplum fairies would pixiedust the problems away.

    Stop looking for Ponies. Stop telling us to look for Ponies. And stop beating the dead one.

    Exactly.

    and strawberries too, yummy, I like me some strawberries.

  252. 252.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 6:28 pm

    Iraq as a country with borders has existed very, very briefly and was carved into what it is now by the brits who had absolutely no clue about the peoples there either.

    I know all that. How do you think the tiny island of Britain ruled the largest empire the world has ever seen?

    The Brits deliberately set the wogs at each others throats and played them like a Stradivarius. As soon as one faction became too powerful, the Brits would give a rival, weaker faction modern weapons and point them at the stronger faction. The wogs always hated each other more than they hated the Brits so it worked wonderfully.

    They did it in every colony they had. The Brits had the advantage of a thousand years of vicious European political infighting and they went through wog political structures like a hot knife through butter.

  253. 253.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 6:28 pm

    Johnny, this is me.

    Woof!

  254. 254.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 6:31 pm

    You sit their on your self-righteous high horse and claim that it’s my fault that we have a leader that ain’t worth the flesh he’s printed on? That I, a voting American Citizen am responsible when I voted for the other guy?

    I voted for the other guy too. I live in one of the reddest of the red states so it didn’t make a tinker’s damn that I voted for Gore.

    When I say “we” are responsible I mean all of us, all Americans, and I mean me too.

  255. 255.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 6:33 pm

    When I say “we” are responsible I mean all of us, all Americans, and I mean me too.

    Why don’t you run for office with this bullshit platform? Perpetual Damage Remediation — The New Ethical America.

    Oh wait .. the people are too stupid to choose the right way. They’ll stupidly vote that their interests lie elsewhere.

    Whose idea was this fucked-up America thing, anyway?

  256. 256.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 6:36 pm

    Well, it certainly wasn’t mine.

  257. 257.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 6:36 pm

    Except your honor would kill people. That is not peace and love.

    People are going to die whether we do the honorable thing or the dishonorable thing. Therefore doing the honorable thing is the right path.

  258. 258.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 6:38 pm

    Oh wait .. the people are too stupid to choose the right way.

    Voting for Bush was the smart thing to do?

  259. 259.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 6:38 pm

    If we were an honorable people who believed in peace and love we would never have attacked Iraq in the first place.

    Last I checked, I didn’t get a vote on that one, chief. But if I did, well, check out the pre-war polling in detail sometime–America did not sign on for this war, and the only reason we ended up in it is because we had dishonorable leaders who weren’t telling us the truth, and indeed generally seem to be opposed to peace and love. As a nation, we were sold a false bill of goods, and as that increasingly became clear, we reacted as you’d expect.

  260. 260.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 6:41 pm

    People are going to die whether we do the honorable thing or the dishonorable thing. Therefore doing the honorable thing is the right path.

    You certainly don’t seem to have a problem with that. You sure you’re really about peace and love?

    I do have a problem with that. I also think, personally, that as long as we are there, more people are going to be killed.

  261. 261.

    dreggas

    February 2, 2007 at 6:41 pm

    When I say “we” are responsible I mean all of us, all Americans, and I mean me too.

    That’s just plain bullshit. That’s like bush trying to foist the war off on everyone else using the talk of “we”. I did not vote for this policy and if I remember correctly a large segment of the population was against it too but we were all ignored.

    THIS is the kind of shit that pisses me off about the left, this sense of collective guilt and boo-hooing that we’re so bad and such oppressors. Well guess what buddy we’re oppressing a helluva lot more by staying in Iraq than by getting the fuck out.

    I for one made my apologies, spoke my mind when I voted, and I am not going to feel guilty about this anymore, I’ve made my peace and I can look at myself in the mirror because I oppose it, I voted against it and I speak against it.

    All the navel gazing in the world ain’t going to fix this mess and none of it will be fixed by hanging around. It’s like the Humpty Dumpty nursery rhyme “all the kings horses and all the kings men couldn’t put humpty together again”. Well in this case Humpty Dumpty vis-a-vis Iraq ain’t gonna be put back together by clapping louder let alone by committing more people to go there.

    This civil war has been being waged for ages, indeed probably millenia and we aren’t capable of stopping it, it was merely “cold” when we toppled Saddam and made it hot.

    Honor dictates that we make ammends but ammends and reparations in this case do not mean sending more people of our own to die for a mistake or so we can somehow restore our honor. That’s what shrub thinks, that if he just sends more troops he can somehow salvage his reputation.

    It’s time the adults took little shrubs hands off the controls and started driving again.

  262. 262.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 6:42 pm

    Voting for Bush was the smart thing to do?

    He didn’t get the most votes, remember Jonny?

    The other guy did. It must have been SCOTUS that was stupid. Yeah, that’s it. Stupid SCOTUS.

    Another American idea that turned out to be shit.

  263. 263.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 6:45 pm

    People are going to die whether we do the honorable thing or the dishonorable thing. Therefore doing the honorable thing is the right path.

    Shorter Johnathan: It’s not about saving lives, it’s about honor. It’s not about stopping the madness, it’s about making sure the Nation’s cock can still stand tall.

  264. 264.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 6:45 pm

    Hey dreggas, at least Hilly Clinton said today that she’d end the war if she became president.

    Unfortunately, I’m still not sure I could pull the lever for her.

  265. 265.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 6:47 pm

    TZ, I want to personally apologize for being a Floridian, even if I didn’t vote for Bush

    Can we do something about that, me being Floridian I mean?

  266. 266.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 6:48 pm

    As a nation, we were sold a false bill of goods, and as that increasingly became clear, we reacted as you’d expect.

    Precisely the point I was making with the Goebbels quote. Thank you for backing me up.

  267. 267.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 6:48 pm

    Unfortunately, I’m still not sure I could pull the lever for her.

    I welcome our future Supreme Empress of the Galaxy and her super-mice Overlords.

  268. 268.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 6:50 pm

    Can we do something about that, me being Floridian I mean?

    I think we have room for one more Arizonan.

  269. 269.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 6:50 pm

    He didn’t get the most votes, remember Jonny?

    He won by the rules of the game.

    And I agree with you about the SCOTUS.

  270. 270.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 6:51 pm

    Precisely the point I was making with the Goebbels quote. Thank you for backing me up.

    But, this is not Germany. We are not living 50 years in the past. History only repeats itself by re-employing a technique, not by replaying the whole damned movie again. The plot is not exactly the same, the ending has different dialogue. Nuremburg trials are not expected at this time.

  271. 271.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 6:52 pm

    He won by the rules of the game.

    Not exactly, Congress was supposed to decide if the margin was too close to pick a winner.

  272. 272.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 6:53 pm

    I think we have room for one more Arizonan.

    I’ll be right over ;)

  273. 273.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 6:54 pm

    I do have a problem with that. I also think, personally, that as long as we are there, more people are going to be killed.

    I have no clue whether more people will die if we leave or if we stay.

    And neither does anyone else, including our leaders.

  274. 274.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 6:54 pm

    we reacted as you’d expect.

    Support for the Bush’s handling of Iraq, even in the face of lies, was marginally in the majority at the beginning. It’s in the toilet now, and the governing party in Congress has been fired.

    Please don’t encourage Jonny Goebbels. Let him live in his 1935 Forever bubble.

  275. 275.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 6:56 pm

    Vincent Bugliosi prosecuted Charles Manson

    http://www.lightparty.com/Misc/NoneDareCallItTreason.html

    None Dare Call It Treason
    by Vincent Bugliosi

    In the December 12 ruling by the US Supreme Court handing the election to George Bush, the Court committed the unpardonable sin of being a knowing surrogate for the Republican Party instead of being an impartial arbiter of the law. If you doubt this, try to imagine Al Gore’s and George Bush’s roles being reversed and ask yourself if you can conceive of Justice Antonin Scalia and his four conservative brethren issuing an emergency order on December 9 stopping the counting of ballots (at a time when Gore’s lead had shrunk to 154 votes) on the grounds that if it continued, Gore could suffer “irreparable harm,” and then subsequently, on December 12, bequeathing the election to Gore on equal protection grounds.

    If you can, then I suppose you can also imagine seeing a man jumping away from his own shadow, Frenchmen no longer drinking wine. From the beginning, Bush desperately sought, as it were, to prevent the opening of the door, the looking into the box–unmistakable signs that he feared the truth. In a nation that prides itself on openness, instead of the Supreme Court doing everything within its power to find a legal way to open the door and box, they did the precise opposite in grasping, stretching and searching mightily for a way, any way at all, to aid their choice for President, Bush, in the suppression of the truth, finally settling, in their judicial coup d’état, on the untenable argument that there was a violation of the Fourteenth Amendment’s equal protection clause–the Court asserting that because of the various standards of determining the voter’s intent in the Florida counties, voters were treated unequally, since a vote disqualified in one county (the so-called undervotes, which the voting machines did not pick up) may have been counted in another county, and vice versa. Accordingly, the Court reversed the Florida Supreme Court’s order that the undervotes be counted, effectively delivering the presidency to Bush.

    Now, in the equal protection cases I’ve seen, the aggrieved party, the one who is being harmed and discriminated against, almost invariably brings the action. But no Florida voter I’m aware of brought any action under the equal protection clause claiming he was disfranchised because of the different standards being employed. What happened here is that Bush leaped in and tried to profit from a hypothetical wrong inflicted on someone else. Even assuming Bush had this right, the very core of his petition to the Court was that he himself would be harmed by these different standards.

    Much more:

  276. 276.

    dreggas

    February 2, 2007 at 6:56 pm

    Rome Again Says:

    Hey dreggas, at least Hilly Clinton said today that she’d end the war if she became president.

    Unfortunately, I’m still not sure I could pull the lever for her.

    Honestly, Shillary would say she’d do a strip tease if she won the presidency if polls showed that’s what the people wanted. Don’t get me wrong I want a responsive government that listens to the people but I don’t want one headed by someone who twists whichever way the wind is blowing.

  277. 277.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 6:57 pm

    I have no clue whether more people will die if we leave or if we stay.

    Well, that settles it. It’s the Stupid Pilot Problem.

    Unknown mountaintop ahead, either 4000 or 6000 feet.

    At night. In the clouds.

    What to do? Split the difference, fly at 5000 feet!

    That’s what Captain Jonny Goebbels would do!

  278. 278.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 6:58 pm

    Honestly, Shillary would say she’d do a strip tease if she won the presidency if polls showed that’s what the people wanted. Don’t get me wrong I want a responsive government that listens to the people but I don’t want one headed by someone who twists whichever way the wind is blowing.

    Me neither, that’s why I wouldn’t pull the lever for her, but, hmmm, that strip tease might be interesting. LMAO

  279. 279.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 6:59 pm

    I’ll be right over

    I’ll leave a light on.

  280. 280.

    dreggas

    February 2, 2007 at 6:59 pm

    Rome Again Says:

    Me neither, that’s why I wouldn’t pull the lever for her, but, hmmm, that strip tease might be interesting. LMAO

    Ya know I do believe that older women are like fine wine, they only get better with age, but there are some I just don’t want to see naked…ever.

  281. 281.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 6:59 pm

    That’s what Captain Jonny Goebbels would do!

    I believe you’re correct.

  282. 282.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 7:00 pm

    Precisely the point I was making with the Goebbels quote. Thank you for backing me up.

    Another obvious point that did not need a quote from Goebbels.

    Support for the Bush’s handling of Iraq, even in the face of lies, was marginally in the majority at the beginning.

    Right–a majority of the country was for it, until the preponderance of the lies became clear to them. If you look at the early polling, you’ll see that a majority of Americans thought this was going to be quick, easy, painless–we’d go in, Saddam would fall, and then we’d rush out of there before we got crushed by all the candy and flowers. A majority of Americans also thought Saddam had some sort of direct role in the 9/11 attacks–heck, if I had thought that, maybe I would have been for it too…

  283. 283.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 7:01 pm

    I said interesting, not seductive.

  284. 284.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 7:01 pm

    But, this is not Germany. We are not living 50 years in the past. History only repeats itself by re-employing a technique, not by replaying the whole damned movie again. The plot is not exactly the same, the ending has different dialogue. Nuremburg trials are not expected at this time.

    I was quoting Goebbels as an expert on propaganda, not for historical reasons.

    “Of course the people don’t want war. But after all, it’s the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it’s always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it’s a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger.”
    — Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

    Isn’t this exactly what happened?

    We were told we were being attacked and the pacifists were denounced for lack of patriotism.

  285. 285.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 7:02 pm

    I’ll leave a light on.

    Thank ya kindly sir.

  286. 286.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 7:02 pm

    A majority of Americans also thought Saddam had some sort of direct role in the 9/11 attacks.

    If I’m not mistaken a majority still does.

  287. 287.

    dreggas

    February 2, 2007 at 7:06 pm

    Jonathan Says:

    If I’m not mistaken a majority still does.

    No, thankfully.

  288. 288.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 7:06 pm

    Right, propaganda is the tool, but that doesn’t mean it is completely used in exactly the same way each time. Things change, new twists are added each time. We are not fighting the Nazis, we’re fighting the NeoCons.

    [Interesting aside, Neocon has been a term I have lived with all my life, it used to be just a convention in Chicago my parents attended every year, now it is an ideology].

  289. 289.

    dreggas

    February 2, 2007 at 7:06 pm

    Rome Again Says:

    I said interesting, not seductive.

    I have an overactive imagination and there are some things my mind cannot unsee…I’d prefer to just avoid it altogether as bleaching my brain does not tickle.

  290. 290.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 7:07 pm

    Well, that settles it. It’s the Stupid Pilot Problem.

    You claim to be absolutely sure?

  291. 291.

    dreggas

    February 2, 2007 at 7:07 pm

    [Interesting aside, Neocon has been a term I have lived with all my life, it used to be just a convention in Chicago my parents attended every year, now it is an ideology].

    Hmmmm…Neon sales-people?

  292. 292.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 7:09 pm

    Jonathan, do you seriously believe that most of Americans believe Iraq had something to do with 9/11?

    Why did we recently install a Democratic Congress again? Oh yeah, because the majority of the people doesn’t believe Iraq had something to do with 9/11.

  293. 293.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 7:11 pm

    http://regimeofterror.com/archives/2006/07/harris_poll_64_americans_belie/

    July 21, 2006

    Harris Poll: 64% Americans believe Saddam Hussein had “strong” links to al Qaeda

    The latest Harris Poll (hat tip Ray Robison) has some interesting results on public opinions of Saddam Hussein’s possible links to al Qaeda.

    Of those Americans polled, 64% agree that Saddam Hussein had “strong” links to al Qaeda.

    Hussein’s latest claim of innocence (below) is not convincing the American public opinion, as the percentage of Americans who believe the two groups had “strong” links has remained fairly steady for over a year.

    In Saddam Hussein’s latest letter to the American people, he urges U.S. withdrawal from Iraq because of his professed innocence on a number of issues.

    In the letter Hussein claims Iraq did “not have any ties to so-called terrorism.” Of course Hussein’s Iraq certainly had extensive ties to terrorism and thus had been listed on the State Department’s annual list of State Sponsors of Terrorism for over a decade.

  294. 294.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 7:11 pm

    Asked whether former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, 52 percent said he was not, but 43 percent said they believe he was

    That was in September last year. Certainly down since then.

    No, people don’t believe that fairy tale any more.

  295. 295.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 7:12 pm

    I have no clue whether more people will die if we leave or if we stay.

    We know more will die if we stay. We know more will die if we leave.

    But at least the bleeding on our side will stop if we leave.

    There are no Ponies in Iraq.

  296. 296.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 7:13 pm

    No, thankfully.

    You were saying?

  297. 297.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 7:14 pm

    You claim to be absolutely sure?

    That you are an idiot?

    Yes, I would say at this time, pretty sure.

    Confidence level, high.

  298. 298.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 7:15 pm

    But at least the bleeding on our side will stop if we leave.

    American lives are more valuable than Iraqi lives?

  299. 299.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 7:16 pm

    I have an overactive imagination and there are some things my mind cannot unsee…I’d prefer to just avoid it altogether as bleaching my brain does not tickle.

    Yeah, I’m a brave soul, I have a tendency to go where angels fear to tread.

  300. 300.

    dreggas

    February 2, 2007 at 7:17 pm

    Of those Americans polled, 64% agree that Saddam Hussein had “strong” links to al Qaeda.

    See here’s the fatal flaw in polls. You can randomly choose people and get one result, randomly choose more and get a different result. Now of course the same could be said about polls showing Americans not wanting us to stay in Iraq but the proof of that is in a congress controlled by the opposition party…therefore fact to back-up the polling numbers.

    I bet if I randomly called a bunch of people in the midwest I’d hear the following:

    A. Jesus is returning next week.

    B. The earth is less than 6000 years old

    C. They were probed anally by Aliens (even though their bibles say we are the only life in the universe)

    D. Every muslim is a terrorist

    and the list goes on. Sorry but those polls can say whatever they like, it’s pretty darn clear America ain’t buyin the snake oil anymore.

  301. 301.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 7:18 pm

    That was in September last year. Certainly down since then.

    No, people don’t believe that fairy tale any more.

    I showed you a poll that supported my position, show me one that supports yours.

    That poll was less than two months before the “landslide” election.

  302. 302.

    dreggas

    February 2, 2007 at 7:19 pm

    Jonathan Says:
    American lives are more valuable than Iraqi lives?

    Short answer and callous as it may sound…you bet your sweet ass. Sorry but if they want to kill each other and use the training we are providing them with to kill our boys and theirs then fuck ’em.

  303. 303.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 7:20 pm

    See here’s the fatal flaw in polls. You can randomly choose people and get one result, randomly choose more and get a different result. Now of course the same could be said about polls showing Americans not wanting us to stay in Iraq but the proof of that is in a congress controlled by the opposition party…therefore fact to back-up the polling numbers.

    That was a Harris poll I quoted, they are designed to give statistically valid results.

  304. 304.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 7:20 pm

    Jonathan, the election itself is the proof. What do you think was the reason why people wanted so many Democrats in control of Congress?

    They do not agree with this war. If Iraq truly attacked us, the people would not feel that way, to a large extent. That would be like saying America didn’t want to enter WWII after Japan attacked us.

  305. 305.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 7:20 pm

    show me one that supports yours.

    Kiss my ass. Show me your support for the idea that this is 1935 and we are operating under Goebbels rules of public information.

    Your cover is blown, asshole.

    You’re a stupid troll. Pariah, anyone?

    This started with the trollish “Pariah” post.

    C’mon, get out the proof for that crock of shit.

  306. 306.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 7:22 pm

    Short answer and callous as it may sound…you bet your sweet ass.

    Certainly sounds bigoted to me.

    I though liberals were supposed to be against bigotry?

  307. 307.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 7:22 pm

    Short answer and callous as it may sound…you bet your sweet ass.

    Exactly right. Protecting Iraq from itself is not worth one American life AFAIC.

    Not one.

  308. 308.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 7:25 pm

    Jonathan, the election itself is the proof. What do you think was the reason why people wanted so many Democrats in control of Congress?

    They do not agree with this war. If Iraq truly attacked us, the people would not feel that way, to a large extent. That would be like saying America didn’t want to enter WWII after Japan attacked us.

    Saddam is dead. The one that Americans think attacked them has been vanquished. Of course people want an end to the war, as far as they’re concerned it’s over.

  309. 309.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 7:25 pm

    Not one.

    Agreed. I would add, it’s not worth one Iraqi life either.

  310. 310.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 7:26 pm

    American lives are more valuable than Iraqi lives?

    Iraqi lives are more valuable then American lives?

    Admit it. Given a choice between a Marine’s life and an Iraqi’s, who do you choose?

  311. 311.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 7:26 pm

    I though liberals were supposed to be against bigotry?

    They’re for luthery, though.

  312. 312.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 7:26 pm

    Saddam is dead. The one that Americans think attacked them has been vanquished. Of course people want an end to the war, as far as they’re concerned it’s over.

    Saddam died AFTER the election. My memory isn’t that short. Yours is apparently.

  313. 313.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 7:28 pm

    Admit it. Given a choice between a Marine’s life and an Iraqi’s, who do you choose?

    Careful TP, he’ll just cry “False Dilemma”.

  314. 314.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 7:28 pm

    Show me your support for the idea that this is 1935 and we are operating under Goebbels rules of public information.

    I already pointed out that human nature and political dynamics have not changed since 1935.

    People are the same gullible fools now as they were then.

    Propaganda is propaganda, we were fed propaganda and enough of us fell for it to allow the propagandists to do what they want.

  315. 315.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 7:29 pm

    Shorter Jonny Goebbels:

    Americans are too stupid to vote right, but I am the expert on what they think. I’ve been studying stupid people all my life.

  316. 316.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 7:29 pm

    They’re for luthery *bigamy*, though.

    Pro-Harem!

  317. 317.

    dreggas

    February 2, 2007 at 7:29 pm

    Jonathan Says:
    Certainly sounds bigoted to me.

    I though liberals were supposed to be against bigotry?

    Bigoted? In whatever high and mighty Narcissistic world you live in where your shit don’t stink…maybe. Here on earth, you know in the real world, the reality is you can’t help those who don’t help themselves.

    From this vantage point the only thing that the Shi’a are celebrating is the fact they have the guns now and the Sunni are fighting for their very existence. We have no business standing in the middle.

    Oh and uh…whoever said I was a liberal or that I had to believe in pie in the sky utopias to be one?

  318. 318.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 7:30 pm

    People are the same gullible fools now as they were then.

    And then He gave us Jonny Goebbels to lead them.

  319. 319.

    Andrew

    February 2, 2007 at 7:31 pm

    Careful TP, he’ll just cry “False Dilemma”.

    Well, is the Marine white or brown?

  320. 320.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 7:32 pm

    Given a choice between a Marine’s life and an Iraqi’s, who do you choose?

    It depends, if were someone like a child that I was sure was innocent, I would have to pick the child. That would be the honorable thing to do. The Marine has an expectation of death or injury from his actions, the child does not.

    If the person is a combatant, obviously I would pick the Marine.

  321. 321.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 7:33 pm

    And then He gave us Jonny Goebbels to lead them.

    Does your yardman have a cousin?

  322. 322.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 7:35 pm

    Does your yardman have a cousin?

    You mean my housekeeper, Mary Magdalene?

  323. 323.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 7:36 pm

    From this vantage point the only thing that the Shi’a are celebrating is the fact they have the guns now and the Sunni are fighting for their very existence. We have no business standing in the middle.

    Exactly.

    Jonathan, Iraq is nothing more than an experiment, playing with people’s lives. An experiment, which, no matter how it turns out, still turns a profit in gun-running. Get it?

  324. 324.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 7:36 pm

    Shorter Jonny Goebbels:

    I got my Playing God Certificate. Try me.

  325. 325.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 7:37 pm

    If the person is a combatant, obviously I would pick the Marine.

    And if you can’t tell? Then what? Will you parse it down further? Or will you admit the truth?

  326. 326.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 7:37 pm

    Bigoted? In whatever high and mighty Narcissistic world you live in where your shit don’t stink…maybe. Here on earth, you know in the real world, the reality is you can’t help those who don’t help themselves.

    We put them in that situation, it is not their fault that we invaded without sufficient troops to maintain order.

    The same damn thing would happen in the US if the Iraqi’s invaded us and destroyed all our police and military.

    First we would start fighting them and then we would start fighting each other for the scraps of civilization that werre left.

  327. 327.

    dreggas

    February 2, 2007 at 7:37 pm

    It depends, if were someone like a child that I was sure was innocent, I would have to pick the child. That would be the honorable thing to do. The Marine has an expectation of death or injury from his actions, the child does not

    Of course now that child is taking up guns himself:

    See here

  328. 328.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 7:38 pm

    You mean my housekeeper, Mary Magdalene?

    Not, she went to France. DaVinci’s Code told me so. ;)

  329. 329.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 7:38 pm

    You mean my housekeeper, Mary Magdalene?

    Typhoid Mary?

  330. 330.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 7:39 pm

    We put them in that situation, it is not their fault that we invaded without sufficient troops to maintain order.

    And therein lies the problem. You seem to still believe invading Iraq was a good thing, we just didn’t have enough troops to do the job.

    Priceless!

  331. 331.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 7:40 pm

    Not, she went to France

    Maybe London, maybe France …

    I see Jonny’s underpants.

  332. 332.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 7:40 pm

    And if you can’t tell? Then what? Will you parse it down further? Or will you admit the truth?

    The scenario I was given was to choose between a Marine’s life and an Iraqi’s. I personally would not fire on a car full of Iraqi’s just because they got a little too close, as has happened many times in Iraq by US troops.

    If the Iraqi is not an obvious threat then why would I need to make the choice?

  333. 333.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 7:41 pm

    First we would start fighting them and then we would start fighting each other for the scraps of civilization that werre left.

    And yet you want our Marines and Army to stay in that mess…forever.

  334. 334.

    Pooh

    February 2, 2007 at 7:42 pm

    I’m basing Jonathan on the Gunnery Sergeant Tom Highway, the Marine character played by Clint Eastwood in Heartbreak Ridge.

    Funny, because all I can think to say in response to all the “serious” commentary here is

    “Model A for and a tank full of gas/
    Hand full of pussy and a mouth full of ass”

    (Much funnier if you’ve actually seen the movie.

    Oh, and Jonathan

    You can rob me. You can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don’t bore me.

  335. 335.

    dreggas

    February 2, 2007 at 7:42 pm

    Jonathan Says:

    We put them in that situation, it is not their fault that we invaded without sufficient troops to maintain order.

    As my wife is fond of saying “Who’s we white boy?”

    In case I didn’t make myself absolutely clear. I did not enable this, I did not vote for this and I am done feeling any semblance of guilt for what this administration has done. In fact about the only thing I feel bad about is that more U.S. troops are being sent to die for Pretzel boy and some ephemeral legacy.

    THAT I feel sorry for. If the Shi’a and the kurd and the Sunni wanna kill one another then they will do so with or without us and no American should be in the way of it.

    As I said we took the cork off the bottle, they are the ones choosing to be djinn…

  336. 336.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 7:42 pm

    Maybe London, maybe France …

    I see Jonny’s underpants.

    Actually, some people say Mary (mother of your yardman) went to Glastonbury (close to London).

    So, Mary in London, Mary in France actually makes a bit of sense.

  337. 337.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 7:43 pm

    Jonathan, Iraq is nothing more than an experiment, playing with people’s lives. An experiment, which, no matter how it turns out, still turns a profit in gun-running. Get it?

    We are the ones who set the experiment in motion. It is dishonorable to do such a thing and then walk away from it.

  338. 338.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 7:44 pm

    Mary in London, Mary in France actually makes a bit of sense.

    Thanks. I enjoy studying under you.

  339. 339.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 7:44 pm

    If the Iraqi is not an obvious threat then why would I need to make the choice?

    Because you are proposing exactly that kind of choice.

    Marines and Army we *will* lose vs Faceless Iraqis who will die either way. Perhaps not the exact same Iraqis, but Iraqis nonetheless.

  340. 340.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 7:45 pm

    And therein lies the problem. You seem to still believe invading Iraq was a good thing, we just didn’t have enough troops to do the job.

    I’ve already stated on this thred that I was adamantly opposed to the invasion. That doesn’t change the fact that we did invade and we invaded without sufficient forces to do the job properly.

  341. 341.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 7:46 pm

    It is dishonorable to do such a thing and then walk away from it.

    It is dishonorable to send soldiers into a situation they can’t win just because you find it ‘dishonorable’ to disengage.

    How do you ask a soldier to be the last one to die for a mistake?

  342. 342.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 7:46 pm

    And yet you want our Marines and Army to stay in that mess…forever.

    With Marines, we can solve any problem in the world.

    Jonathan, swallow your pride, and admit, Marines KILL.

  343. 343.

    Pooh

    February 2, 2007 at 7:47 pm

    I think you’re trying to put me through some kind of test,
    I’m begging you baby won’t you give it a rest
    You talk about people that you don’t even know,
    keep it up baby I’m gonna pick up and blow
    You talk too much,
    I can’t believe the things that you say everyday
    If you keep on talking baby,
    you know you’re bound to drive me away

  344. 344.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 7:47 pm

    Shorter Jonny Goebbels:

    I was against the war in Iraq, before I saw how right I was, and ended up being in favor of staying there forever because it was our fault and we have to fix it no matter how long it takes.

    Or … something. Yeah, something like that.

  345. 345.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 7:48 pm

    And yet you want our Marines and Army to stay in that mess…forever.

    For as long as necessary.

    We broke it, it is our honorable responsiblity to fix it.

  346. 346.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 7:49 pm

    I’ve already stated on this thred that I was adamantly opposed to the invasion. That doesn’t change the fact that we did invade and we invaded without sufficient forces to do the job properly.

    So you were “For not being for the war, before you were against it?”

  347. 347.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 7:50 pm

    Shorter Jonny Goebbels:

    I was against the war in Iraq, before I saw how right I was, and ended up being in favor of staying there forever because it was our fault and we have to fix it no matter how long it takes.

    Or … something. Yeah, something like that.

    Exactly what I just said, and I didn’t see your post TZ, thank you for confirming.

  348. 348.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 7:50 pm

    Shorter Jonny Goebbels:

    It’s essential that we always stay at war with EastAsia.

    For, uh, ethical reasons.

  349. 349.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 7:51 pm

    In case I didn’t make myself absolutely clear. I did not enable this, I did not vote for this and I am done feeling any semblance of guilt for what this administration has done

    I didn’t vote for the Decider either, I fucking detest the man. Nevertheless he is the elected leader of our country and we are resposible for his fuckups.

  350. 350.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 7:51 pm

    Regarding the Saddam – 9/11 poll numbers: a majority of Americans didn’t think he was involved as of September of ’06, but the size of that majority apparently depends on what question you ask them, and how you ask it.

  351. 351.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 7:52 pm

    For as long as necessary.

    Like I said, Forever. Welcome to the McCain-Lieberman-Johnathan Party of Three.

    We broke it, it is our honorable responsiblity to fix it.

    Some things can’t be fixed. Iraq is one of them. You can talk ‘honorable responsibility’ when it’s only *your* own life being placed in harm’s way. Not when you want to send thousands of others to their deaths for nothing.

  352. 352.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 7:52 pm

    We are the ones who set the experiment in motion. It is dishonorable to do such a thing and then walk away from it.

    It is a killing machine so long as we perpetuate it.

  353. 353.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 7:53 pm

    Studying TZ? Is that what you call it?

  354. 354.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 7:53 pm

    It is dishonorable to send soldiers into a situation they can’t win just because you find it ‘dishonorable’ to disengage.

    How do you know for sure they can’t win?

    I don’t pretend to know and I’ve been closely studying the situation in Iraq as an amateur student of military history even since before the invasion.

  355. 355.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 7:54 pm

    I didn’t see your post TZ

    Whoever is writing the Jonny Goebbels character now (Andrew?) is probably cursing the idea at this point.

  356. 356.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 7:54 pm

    . Nevertheless he is the elected leader of our country and we are resposible for his fuckups.

    Shorter Johnathan: Yes Bush is one Dumb MoFo. But we still need to follow him off the cliff because he’s the decider!

    I welcome President Empress Pelosi in 2007.

  357. 357.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 7:55 pm

    Shorter Jonny Goebbels:

    If the shoe might fit, you can never quit.

  358. 358.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 7:56 pm

    Jonathan, swallow your pride, and admit, Marines KILL.

    Killing is our profession.

  359. 359.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 7:57 pm

    How do you know for sure they can’t win?

    Because I’ve seen how this war has been run from the beginning, and by whom–it was lost early on, the only question now is by how much.

  360. 360.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 7:58 pm

    If you are in some small foreign country and a revolution breaks out, who do you want to show up to protect and save you from the violent fanatics?

  361. 361.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 8:01 pm

    If you are in some small foreign country and a revolution breaks out, who do you want to show up to protect and save you from the violent fanatics?

    Who started the revolution, who are the fanatics, and are they worse than the “protectors”? Time to flee.

  362. 362.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 8:01 pm

    Because I’ve seen how this war has been run from the beginning, and by whom—it was lost early on, the only question now is by how much.

    In two years we will most likely have a Democratic president, I certainly hope so.

    We might even have president Pelosi sooner than that if things keep on developing in the Scooter Libby trial.

  363. 363.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 8:03 pm

    Who started the revolution, who are the fanatics, and are they worse than the “protectors”? Time to flee.

    I guess you’ve never heard of “sending in the Marines”.

    Marines and only Marines are US Embassy guards.

  364. 364.

    Richard 23

    February 2, 2007 at 8:03 pm

    Jonathan is acting like a classic concern troll. Well played, sir! But you’re not accomplishing anything here except taking Darrell’s place in driving a comment thread beyond 250.

    And quit saying “we” to insult everybody. I think the “turd in your pocket” line is required here.

    Staying in Iraq (to fuck it up more) because “we” broke it will only end in more tears. Two (and more) wrongs will not make a right.

    “We” are not becoming a parriah. “We” are one and will remain one until “we” get decent management.

  365. 365.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 8:05 pm

    Killing is our profession.

    Heh. You’re killin us here, that’s for sure.

  366. 366.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 8:06 pm

    I posted a link and a quote upthread to a piece by Senator Russ Feingold who says that the current Democratic resolution for withdrawing from Iraq is a bunch of crap that actually authorizes further engagement.

  367. 367.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 8:07 pm

    Have Feingold come down here and talk to us. You can go.

  368. 368.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 8:08 pm

    http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/02/02/feingold/

    Here it is again:

    Feb. 2, 2007 | Congress is gearing up for a big Iraq debate next week. The Senate will take up the John Warner-Carl Levin resolution, which some are portraying as an important, symbolic rebuke of the president’s Iraq policy. Symbols can be powerful, but only if they have substance behind them. Read the fine print of the resolution itself, and you will find that it is not a rebuke at all. In parts, it reads like a reauthorization of the war, rejecting troop redeployment and specifically authorizing “vigorous operations” in part of Iraq. This resolution isn’t a symbolic rebuke of the president; instead it symbolizes a Congress that is too timid to challenge the president’s failed Iraq policy.

    Under the guise of constructive criticism, this resolution signs off on the president’s policy of maintaining military operations in Iraq indefinitely. While a resolution like this might have been all you could expect from a Republican Congress, it hardly seems like the product of a Congress under new Democratic leadership.

    After voters registered their opposition to the war last November, the new Congress was supposed to offer dramatic change. Instead, less than a month into this Congress, some members in both parties have rallied around a resolution that endorses the catastrophic status quo in Iraq.

    Beyond a tepid disagreement with the president’s “surge” strategy, this resolution does nothing to stop the escalation. It even rejects “any immediate reduction in, or withdrawal of, the present level of forces.” For Congress to reject bringing troops out of Iraq, after almost four years of a disastrous policy, makes no sense. It ignores public outrage over the war and the need to address other pressing national security priorities. The American people recognize that there is no U.S. military solution to Iraq’s civil war. And as long as we focus disproportionate attention and resources on Iraq, we will not be able to counter the full range of threats that we face around the world.

    The resolution also fundamentally ignores the reality on the ground in Iraq. The resolution calls for continuing “vigorous operations in Anbar province, specifically for the purpose of combating an insurgency.” This is a recipe for disaster. Al Anbar province is where a majority of U.S. troops have been killed in Iraq. The insurgency there, as well as general opposition to the U.S. presence and to the Shiite-dominated government in Baghdad, is fueled by the Sunnis’ political and economic grievances. Conducting targeted missions to take out terrorists makes sense; using U.S. troops to put down an insurgency doesn’t. Maintaining a substantial U.S. presence in a primarily Sunni area, without a political solution, means a continuation of our unending, and self-defeating, policies in Iraq.

    As you can see, the Democrats aren’t about to do anything substantial about getting out of Iraq, at least at the present time. They are terrified of being painted as “weak on defense”.

  369. 369.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 8:09 pm

    How do you know for sure they can’t win?

    Because they never had a chance in the first place.

    The battlelines have already been drawn between Shia, Sunni and Kurd. And our troops are stuck in the middle.

  370. 370.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 8:12 pm

    “We” are not becoming a parriah. “We” are one and will remain one until “we” get decent management.

    If we pull out and Iraq descends even further into the outer circle of the seventh ring of hell than it already is we will never regain our reputation, no matter who is elected.

  371. 371.

    TenguPhule

    February 2, 2007 at 8:14 pm

    If we pull out and Iraq descends even further into the outer circle of the seventh ring of hell than it already is we will never regain our reputation

    And if we stay, the same thing. Only with less casualties.

  372. 372.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 8:22 pm

    Bush has sent America sliding down the slope from which it will probably never recover.

    Our international reputation is crap at best. Our Army and Marine Corps are near the breaking point and will take years if not decades to recover.

    Our economy is running on borrowed Chinese and Japanese money.

    Our national debt on a per capita basis is $28,905.27 , that’s including every citizen, babies, elderly and all.

    When Bush attacks Iraq, the Mideast will likely go up in flames and gas prices will soar, further damaging our already shaky economy.

    Personal savings are the lowest they have been in 74 years.

    Commercial fish stocks in the oceans are predicted to be depleted by 2050.

    Malthus is cackling in his grave and the four horsemen are saddling up.

  373. 373.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 8:22 pm

    Shorter Jonny Goebbels:

    Peace with a Pony.

  374. 374.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 8:23 pm

    Oops, I meant to say when Bush attack *Iran*

  375. 375.

    Pooh

    February 2, 2007 at 8:25 pm

    If you are in some small foreign country and a revolution breaks out, who do you want to show up to protect and save you from the violent fanatics?

    The army you have and not…(no, not that one)

    Protecting them there so that… (nope)

    Dead-enders! (not so much)

    Wait, wait. OUR violent fanatics. We got Cheney, and Boykin, and Rumsfeld, and Feith, and Cully Stinson, and the 101st Chairborne and Chuck Krauthammer and John Yoo. Like the Guiness dudes say, BRILLIANT!

  376. 376.

    Richard 23

    February 2, 2007 at 8:31 pm

    I posted a link and a quote upthread to a piece by Senator Russ Feingold who says that the current Democratic resolution for withdrawing from Iraq is a bunch of crap that actually authorizes further engagement.

    So that means you agree with it, right? You seem to be in love with the idea of further engagement to preserve “our” honor. Thanks, but no thanks.

    Here it is again:

    Fucking knock that shit off. I’ve seen the Goebbels quote at least three times here (hundreds of times elsewhere) and now you need to repeat the Feingold bit I’ve already read?

    Do I need to repeat myself? Did I stutter? Arrrrgggh!

    Bush has sent America sliding down the slope from which it will probably never recover.

    So let’s keep on going! Whee!

    Our international reputation is crap at best. Our Army and Marine Corps are near the breaking point and will take years if not decades to recover.

    So let’s stay and make it worse!

    Our economy is running on borrowed Chinese and Japanese money.

    So let’s borrow more!

    Commercial fish stocks in the oceans are predicted to be depleted by 2050.

    Shorter Jonathan: I’m running out of material here, but I’m sure finding a pony in Iraq will help with the fish problem.

    Hey, why not do the fish slapping dance?

  377. 377.

    Andrew

    February 2, 2007 at 8:32 pm

    Who started the revolution, who are the fanatics, and are they worse than the “protectors”? Time to flee.

    1) Always the CIA.
    2) Commies/Facists/Islamists/FARC/the French
    3) Yes

  378. 378.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 8:34 pm

    Marines and only Marines are US Embassy guards.

    Were we talking about Embassies? I missed that part, I thought I was being thrust into some sort of incredibly vague small foreign country Choose Your Own Adventure setting for no apparent reason.

  379. 379.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 8:35 pm

    1) Always the CIA.
    2) Commies/Facists/Islamists/FARC/the French
    3) Yes

    > inventory
    > look

  380. 380.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 8:36 pm

    The carrier Eisenhower is currently in the Persian Gulf.

    The carrier Stennis is steaming there now, to arrive in about three weeks.

    The carrier Reagan is steaming for the Western Pacific, from which it can reach the Persian Gulf in a matter of a week or so.

    All these carriers are accompanied by their strike groups which have attack submarines, destroyers, guided missile cruisers and other ancillary craft.

    The officer in overall command of all forces in the Mideast is being changed to Navy Admiral Fallon.

    The dark of the Moon over Tehran starts about March 19.

    US air attacks almost always occur at night when we have an even more significant advantage over opponents because of our technology.

    All these signs point to an attack on Iran.

  381. 381.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 8:38 pm

    Our economy is running on borrowed Chinese and Japanese money.

    Also British, Mexican, Canadian, Middle Eastern, etc., etc. We’re money-agnostic, really–you want to fund our debt, we’ll take your money, yay!

  382. 382.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 8:38 pm

    Shorter Jonny Goebbels:

    Pariah troll failed. Stay in Iraq forever troll crashed.

    New troll! Look! Iran!

    Fuck me. Seriously, fuck me.

  383. 383.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 8:40 pm

    All these signs point to an attack on Iran.

    Future is cloudy, 9/11 changed everything.

    NIE released on a Friday, outlook not so good.

    This is the subject of an ongoing investigation, ask again later.

  384. 384.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 8:42 pm

    All these signs point to an attack on Iran.

    Behold, the Internet Political Magic 8-Ball

  385. 385.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 8:42 pm

    Personal savings are the lowest they have been in 74 years.

    Commercial fish stocks in the oceans are predicted to be depleted by 2050.

    Feline AIDS is the leading killer of domestic housecats.

    Chlorinated water increases your risk of bowel cancer.

    If you keep doing that, you’ll go blind!

  386. 386.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 8:43 pm

    ThymeZone,

    Beat you to it–it’s a good idea though. :)

  387. 387.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 8:44 pm

    Beat you to it—it’s a good idea though

    Great minds ….

  388. 388.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 8:44 pm

    If you think things are bad in Iraq now, just wait until Bush attacks Iran. All hell will break loose.

    Iran may well attempt to sink tankers in the straits of Hormuz, blocking the sealane for oil tankers. They have Russian Sunburn anti ship missiles overlooking the straits of Hormuz.

    The Russians hold at least a ten-year lead over the US in the vital area of anti-ship cruise missile technology.

    We are in for some interesting times.

  389. 389.

    Andrew

    February 2, 2007 at 8:44 pm

    Hug it out, bitches!

  390. 390.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 8:45 pm

    As you can see, the Democrats aren’t about to do anything substantial about getting out of Iraq, at least at the present time. They are terrified of being painted as “weak on defense”.

    No, that was four years ago–now it’s the Republicans.

  391. 391.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 8:45 pm

    If you keep doing that, you’ll go blind!

    I can’t quite make out this post ….

  392. 392.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 8:46 pm

    We are in for some interesting times.

    If only that were true here ….

  393. 393.

    Richard 23

    February 2, 2007 at 8:49 pm

    Fuck me. Seriously, fuck me.

    Get a room, you two! ;-)

    If you think things are bad in Iraq now, just wait until Bush attacks Iran. All hell will break loose.

    But “we” should stay there forever once “we” break it.

    When are we going to go after those WMDs that were shipped off to Syria?

  394. 394.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 8:49 pm

    The US forces will try to knock out the Iranian Sunburns but remember in the Gulf War how much trouble they had finding all the Scud missile launchers.

    The Iranian leaders are far more cagey than our neocon dimbulbs and when Bush strikes they are guaranteed to have something nasty up their sleeves.

  395. 395.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 8:49 pm

    If you think things are bad in Iraq now, just wait until Bush attacks Iran. All hell will break loose.

    What are we at now, 40% of hell broken loose?

    Did you know that Iraq is #4 on the Failed States Index for 2006 (and 2005)? The same three African nations are still hogging the top spots, though.

  396. 396.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 8:50 pm

    Get a room, you two

    You mean …me, and Mister Hand?

  397. 397.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 8:51 pm

    Ok, Johnathan. Riveting, really. Now take a deep breath and try saying something non-obvious. If you really can’t come up with anything, then just a simple “I like pie!” will do.

  398. 398.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 8:51 pm

    If only that were true here

    There are other threads and other sites on the intertubes, no one is making you stay.

  399. 399.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 8:52 pm

    You mean …me, and Mister Hand?

    Just so long as it isn’t you and Mister Hankey!

  400. 400.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 8:52 pm

    There are other threads and other sites on the intertubes

    Then why are you here?

  401. 401.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 8:56 pm

    Did you know that Iraq is #4 on the Failed States Index for 2006 (and 2005)? The same three African nations are still hogging the top spots, though.

    Unsurprising, the legacy of colonialism is coming home to roost.

    Nigeria has oil, that’s probably our next war after Iran.

  402. 402.

    Richard 23

    February 2, 2007 at 8:59 pm

    Nigeria has oil, that’s probably our next war after Iran.

    But once “we” break it “we” have to stay for reasons of honor. “I” can hardly wait!

  403. 403.

    Richard 23

    February 2, 2007 at 9:01 pm

    Just so long as it isn’t you and Mister Hankey!

    ::spit take::

    Thanks for that. Now I need a Mister Hankey. I was expecting a Mister Bill reference and you threw me a mean curveball, which, incidentally, we could use to provide the justification for invading Iran, Syria and Nigeria.

  404. 404.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 9:02 pm

    Nigeria has oil, that’s probably our next war after Iran.

    I thought we were going in alphabetical order?

  405. 405.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 9:02 pm

    Because Nigerian oil is so vital to the American economy, President Bush’s State Department declared in 2002 that—along with all other African oil imports it was to be considered a “strategic national interest.” That essentially meant that the president could send in the U.S. military to protect our access to it.

  406. 406.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 9:07 pm

    Then why are you here?

    I’m not the one who’s bored.

  407. 407.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 9:08 pm

    I’m not the one who’s bored.

    That’s wonderful. The troll gig is still working for you, then?

  408. 408.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 9:08 pm

    I thought we were going in alphabetical order?

    If that were true we would have hit Iran *first*

  409. 409.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 9:10 pm

    That’s wonderful. The troll gig is still working for you, then?

    What makes you think I’m trolling?

  410. 410.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 9:10 pm

    Nigeria oil ‘total war’ warning:

    A Nigerian militant commander in the oil-rich southern Niger Delta has told the BBC his group is declaring “total war” on all foreign oil interests.

    That was the story that was in the news right before we invaded Nigeria in February 2006.

  411. 411.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 9:11 pm

    If that were true we would have hit Iran first

    Have you forgotten who our President is already? I think he’s just making up for lost time now.

  412. 412.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 9:12 pm

    What makes you think I’m trolling?

    That’s the most charitable interpretation.

  413. 413.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 9:12 pm

    But once “we” break it “we” have to stay for reasons of honor. “I” can hardly wait!

    That place is already pretty thoroughly “broken”.

  414. 414.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 9:14 pm

    That’s the most charitable interpretation.

    You can’t deal with an honest difference of opinion?

  415. 415.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 9:18 pm

    You can’t deal with an honest difference of opinion?

    No, I just have trouble dealing with crazy people. In my defense, I think most sane people do. But trolls, of course, are sane people who are just pretending to be deranged. So if you aren’t a troll, then what’s your excuse?

  416. 416.

    ThymeZone

    February 2, 2007 at 9:20 pm

    What makes you think I’m trolling?

    It’s pretty obvious.

  417. 417.

    Pooh

    February 2, 2007 at 9:25 pm

    What makes you think I’m trolling?

    My mistake. You’re just a tool, then.

  418. 418.

    Andrew

    February 2, 2007 at 9:29 pm

    I had no idea the militantly militant “liberal” character would be so popular.

  419. 419.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 9:35 pm

    So if you aren’t a troll, then what’s your excuse?

    I learned a sense of honor in Uncle Sam’s Misguided Children

  420. 420.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 9:38 pm

    No, I just have trouble dealing with crazy people.

    But crazy people are the most fun. I really enjoy messing with Darrell.

    BTW, you still haven’t admitted I was right about Godwin’s law.

  421. 421.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 9:41 pm

    God DANG I hate Dell Computers! GRRRRRRRRR

    I’m back.

  422. 422.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 9:46 pm

    I had no idea the militantly militant “liberal” character would be so popular.

    I’m a good bit more “liberal” than most liberals on almost all subjects. I’m in favor of doing whatever it takes to protect the environment, I’m in favor of raising taxes on the wealthy, I’m in favor of ending drug prohibition, I’m in favor of immediately releasing any prisoner who is in just for drug posession or sales, I’m in favor of affirmative action for those who need it, I’m a card carrying member of the ACLU, I’m in favor of reinstating the fairness doctrine.

    Is that good enough liberal credeentials?

  423. 423.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 9:46 pm

    If you keep doing that, you’ll go blind!

    I can’t quite make out this post

    It means, if you’re not careful, you’ll shoot your eye out with that thing.

    Didn’t we just go over this a couple of days ago? LMAO

  424. 424.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 9:47 pm

    Jonathan,

    But crazy people are the most fun. I really enjoy messing with Darrell.

    BTW, you still haven’t admitted I was right about Godwin’s law.

    And you never addressed my original reply to you on that subject. But as I said subsequently, “there’s a reason for that”.

  425. 425.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 9:47 pm

    Er. I didn’t reply to that first blockquote, apparently.

    But crazy people are the most fun. I really enjoy messing with Darrell.

    Well, you’ve got a point there! :)

  426. 426.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 9:49 pm

    God DANG I hate Dell Computers! GRRRRRRRRR

    I can sympathize.

    I have an ancient HP which I have to baby along, I have to restart it several times a day if I open too many windows.

  427. 427.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 9:49 pm

    Is that good enough liberal credeentials?

    Well, I’ll assume you did score as a liberal on the Pew test? So where are you on the Political Compass…

  428. 428.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 9:52 pm

    I have an ancient HP which I have to baby along, I have to restart it several times a day if I open too many windows.

    I have an ancient HP too, it’s in storage. I didn’t hate it anywhere near as much as I hate this one.

  429. 429.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 9:57 pm

    Pb,

    As far as I can tell, this is your first reply to me about Godwin’s law.

    Actually, it does, because I know what it says—how’d ya like them apples? Similarly, Moore’s Law technically had to do with transistors, but that’s often not how it’s used in practice, nowadays.

  430. 430.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 10:01 pm

    Well, I’ll assume you did score as a liberal on the Pew test? So where are you on the Political Compass…

    I never got the chance, I got too busy trying to keep up with the conversation here and then my computer froze and I had to restart it so I lost the link.

    I’m about to try it out now.

  431. 431.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 10:01 pm

    Jonathan,

    As far as I can tell, this is your first reply to me about Godwin’s law.

    Correct!

  432. 432.

    Punchy

    February 2, 2007 at 10:03 pm

    You can’t deal with an honest difference of opinion?

    My guess is no.

  433. 433.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 10:05 pm

    OK, I came out a liberal

  434. 434.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 10:08 pm

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

    Godwin’s Law (also known as Godwin’s Rule of Nazi Analogies) is a mainstay of Internet culture, an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states: “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.”

  435. 435.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 10:13 pm

    Have you forgotten who our President is already? I think he’s just making up for lost time now.

    Yup, he’s gonna SAVE THE WORLD, one war at a time.

  436. 436.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 10:20 pm

    OK, I came out a libertarian liberal, just about in the middle of the lower left quadrant.

  437. 437.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 10:23 pm

    LOL, It looks like the Dalai Lama and I would find almost nothing to disagree about.

  438. 438.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 10:23 pm

    10:05 he says he came out a liberal
    10:20 he says he came out a liberal libertarian.

    HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM! Something fishy goin’ on here.

  439. 439.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 10:26 pm

    Yup, he’s gonna SAVE THE WORLD, one war at a time.

    I suspect it’s going to be at least two at a time.

  440. 440.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 10:28 pm

    10:05 he says he came out a liberal
    10:20 he says he came out a liberal libertarian.

    Two different tests with the second one being far more discerning.

  441. 441.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 10:29 pm

    I suspect it’s going to be at least two at a time.

    Well, simultaneously I’d say he thinks he can go for 5 or 6. But, each one is its own monster.

  442. 442.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 10:34 pm

    OK, I came out a libertarian liberal, just about in the middle of the lower left quadrant.

    I am too, but IIRC, not quite as far out as you are, there.

    And to the confused, yes, those were two different tests–the Liberal typology in Pew’s Typology Groups, and the Left-Libertarian quadrant in the Political Compass tests.

  443. 443.

    Rome Again

    February 2, 2007 at 10:34 pm

    Two different tests with the second one being far more discerning.

    “I see said the blind man with the deaf dog and the dumb kid”

  444. 444.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 10:38 pm

    Jonathan,

    And, yes, as I said originally, I know what Godwin’s Law is, so there’s really no reason for you to repeat it, let alone twice. Heck, I didn’t even quote Moore’s law, but I thought I made my point. However, to spell it out, if you had read the Wikipedia page for Godwin’s Law, it directly mentions what I was alluding to as well:

    There is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically “lost” whatever debate was in progress. This principle is itself frequently referred to as Godwin’s Law. Thus Godwin’s Law serves also to impose an upper bound on thread length in general.

  445. 445.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 10:38 pm

    Pb,

    Ready to give it up on Godwin’s law?

  446. 446.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 10:51 pm

    Ready to give it up on Godwin’s law?

    LOL.

  447. 447.

    Jonathan

    February 2, 2007 at 11:09 pm

    Hmm.. I cited the actual Godwin’s law formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990 and you cited a tradition which has come to be known as Godwin’s law.

    So we are both correct but I am more correct than you.

    Do a search and show me where I wrote the word “Nazi(s)”.

    I never mentioned Nazis.

  448. 448.

    Pb

    February 2, 2007 at 11:13 pm

    Hmm.. I cited the actual Godwin’s law formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990 and you cited a tradition which has come to be known as Godwin’s law.

    So we are both correct but I am more correct than you.

    Actually, I’d argue that I’m more current than you–and indeed, more conversant with the tradition.

    Do a search and show me where I wrote the word “Nazi(s)”.

    I never mentioned Nazis.

    You mentioned a Nazi, actually.

  449. 449.

    Richard 23

    February 2, 2007 at 11:28 pm

    But once “we” break it “we” have to stay for reasons of honor. “I” can hardly wait!

    That place [Iran] is already pretty thoroughly “broken”.

    So let’s fix it! And then “we” can stay out of honor. Honestly, you are having us on aren’t you? You are trolling for kicks aren’t you?

  450. 450.

    Andrew

    February 3, 2007 at 12:10 am

    I think that the pedantry is the icing on the cake of spoofery.

  451. 451.

    Pb

    February 3, 2007 at 12:18 am

    I think that the pedantry is the icing on the cake of spoofery.

    Andy, yer doin’ a heckuva job!

  452. 452.

    Jonathan

    February 3, 2007 at 1:36 am

    That place [Iran] is already pretty thoroughly “broken”.

    So let’s fix it! And then “we” can stay out of honor. Honestly, you are having us on aren’t you? You are trolling for kicks aren’t you?

    Actually I was referring to Nigeria, which is quite “broken” already, even more so than Iraq.

    If you went into someones home uninvited and broke a priceless heirloom, how would you expect to be treated?

    Do you think you should be allowed to just walk away with no consequences?

    Would you feel no guilt for performing such an act?

    This is *my* country, I feel a deep and abiding sense of guilt that the country that I love and have pledged my life to protect comitted such a horrible crime. My sense of honor that I learned in service to my country will not allow me to just shrug my shoulders and forget the crime.

    Honor and justice are inextricably intertwined, you cannot have one without the other. To walk away from such a horrendous crime is not just, it violates my sense of honor in a way that I lack the words to express.

    When the USA won WWII, a war in which we were attacked without warning, we did not walk away from those who attacked us. Rather, we helped them, we occupied them at our own expense in order to help the citizens of those countries maintain a civil society and not fall back into the savagery we see in Iraq. We helped them financially and materially. We helped them rebuild their industries and their homes. We helped them build, equip and operate hospitals for their multitude of wounded.

    And we did all this immediately after fighting a world wide war against two of the most powerful military machines on the planet, a fight which exhausted us physically, mentally and financially and in which we lost over 400,000 dead.

    Why did we do all this? Because in the long run it was the best choice for us. The lessons of the victory in WWI were learned, Nazi Germany arose from the bitter ashes of the German loss in WWI, a loss in which the victors, instead of helping Germany, made them pay reperations which made an already impoverished and devastated nation suffer even more. A suffering which made the German people bitter and angry, which led directly to the rise of Nazism.

    In contrast Iraq is a small, almost third world nation which we savagely attacked under false pretenses and then allowed to descend into savagery because we were too cheap to do the job right and commit the neccesary resources for the task at hand. We lost only about 140 troops in the kinetic combat portion of the invasion but, because we deliberately failed to plan for the occupation, we have lost nearly 3,000 more troops.

    Now we plan on walking away from Iraq and abandoning the Iraqi people to a cruel fate. The Iraqi’s will remember this injustice in their very bones and Arabs are a vengeful people with very long memories and a very strong sense of honor. We will pay, sooner or later, for our lack of compassion and honor that has led us to deny justice to the Iraqi people.

    That’s about as clear as I can make my thoughts on this subject, I think I’m done argueing with people that lack compassion, honor and foresight.

    Good night and good luck.

  453. 453.

    Jonathan

    February 3, 2007 at 1:38 am

    That place [Iran] is already pretty thoroughly “broken”.

    So let’s fix it! And then “we” can stay out of honor. Honestly, you are having us on aren’t you? You are trolling for kicks aren’t you?

    Actually I was referring to Nigeria, which is quite “broken” already, even more so than Iraq.

    If you went into someones home uninvited and broke a priceless heirloom, how would you expect to be treated?

    Do you think you should be allowed to just walk away with no consequences?

    Would you feel no guilt for performing such an act?

    This is *my* country, I feel a deep and abiding sense of guilt that the country that I love and have pledged my life to protect comitted such a horrible crime. My sense of honor that I learned in service to my country will not allow me to just shrug my shoulders and forget the crime.

    Honor and justice are inextricably intertwined, you cannot have one without the other. To walk away from such a horrendous crime is not just, it violates my sense of honor in a way that I lack the words to express.

    When the USA won WWII, a war in which we were attacked without warning, we did not walk away from those who attacked us. Rather, we helped them, we occupied them at our own expense in order to help the citizens of those countries maintain a civil society and not fall back into the savagery we see in Iraq. We helped them financially and materially. We helped them rebuild their industries and their homes. We helped them build, equip and operate hospitals for their multitude of wounded.

    And we did all this immediately after fighting a world wide war against two of the most powerful military machines on the planet, a fight which exhausted us physically, mentally and financially and in which we lost over 400,000 dead.

    Why did we do all this? Because in the long run it was the best choice for us. The lessons of the victory in WWI were learned, Nazi Germany arose from the bitter ashes of the German loss in WWI, a loss in which the victors, instead of helping Germany, made them pay reperations which made an already impoverished and devastated nation suffer even more. A suffering which made the German people bitter and angry, which led directly to the rise of Nazism.

    In contrast Iraq is a small, almost third world nation which we savagely attacked under false pretenses and then allowed to descend into savagery because we were too cheap to do the job right and commit the neccesary resources for the task at hand. We lost only about 140 troops in the kinetic combat portion of the invasion but, because we deliberately failed to plan for the occupation, we have lost nearly 3,000 more troops.

    Now we plan on walking away from Iraq and abandoning the Iraqi people to a cruel fate. The Iraqi’s will remember this injustice in their very bones and Arabs are a vengeful people with very long memories and a very strong sense of honor. We will pay, sooner or later, for our lack of compassion and honor that has led us to deny justice to the Iraqi people.

    That’s about as clear as I can make my thoughts on this subject, I think I’m done argueing with people that lack compassion, honor and foresight.

    Good night and good luck.

  454. 454.

    Jonathan

    February 3, 2007 at 1:40 am

    That place [Iran] is already pretty thoroughly “broken”.

    So let’s fix it! And then “we” can stay out of honor. Honestly, you are having us on aren’t you? You are trolling for kicks aren’t you?

    Actually I was referring to Nigeria, which is quite “broken” already, even more so than Iraq.

    If you went into someones home uninvited and broke a priceless heirloom, how would you expect to be treated?

    Do you think you should be allowed to just walk away with no consequences?

    Would you feel no guilt for performing such an act?

    This is *my* country, I feel a deep and abiding sense of guilt that the country that I love and have pledged my life to protect comitted such a horrible crime. My sense of honor that I learned in service to my country will not allow me to just shrug my shoulders and forget the crime.

    Honor and justice are inextricably intertwined, you cannot have one without the other. To walk away from such a horrendous crime is not just, it violates my sense of honor in a way that I lack the words to express.

    When the USA won WWII, a war in which we were attacked without warning, we did not walk away from those who attacked us. Rather, we helped them, we occupied them at our own expense in order to help the citizens of those countries maintain a civil society and not fall back into the savagery we see in Iraq. We helped them financially and materially. We helped them rebuild their industries and their homes. We helped them build, equip and operate hospitals for their multitude of wounded.

    And we did all this immediately after fighting a world wide war against two of the most powerful military machines on the planet, a fight which exhausted us physically, mentally and financially and in which we lost over 400,000 dead.

    Why did we do all this? Because in the long run it was the best choice for us. The lessons of the victory in WWI were learned, Nazi Germany arose from the bitter ashes of the German loss in WWI, a loss in which the victors, instead of helping Germany, made them pay reperations which made an already impoverished and devastated nation suffer even more. A suffering which made the German people bitter and angry, which led directly to the rise of Nazism.

    In contrast Iraq is a small, almost third world nation which we savagely attacked under false pretenses and then allowed to descend into savagery because we were too cheap to do the job right and commit the neccesary resources for the task at hand. We lost only about 140 troops in the kinetic combat portion of the invasion but, because we deliberately failed to plan for the occupation, we have lost nearly 3,000 more troops.

    Now we plan on walking away from Iraq and abandoning the Iraqi people to a cruel fate. The Iraqi’s will remember this injustice in their very bones and Arabs are a vengeful people with very long memories and a very strong sense of honor. We will pay, sooner or later, for our lack of compassion and honor that has led us to deny justice to the Iraqi people.

    That’s about as clear as I can make my thoughts on this subject, I think I’m done argueing with people that lack compassion, honor and foresight.

    Good night and good luck.

  455. 455.

    Jonathan

    February 3, 2007 at 1:40 am

    That place [Iran] is already pretty thoroughly “broken”.

    So let’s fix it! And then “we” can stay out of honor. Honestly, you are having us on aren’t you? You are trolling for kicks aren’t you?

    Actually I was referring to Nigeria, which is quite “broken” already, even more so than Iraq.

    If you went into someones home uninvited and broke a priceless heirloom, how would you expect to be treated?

    Do you think you should be allowed to just walk away with no consequences?

    Would you feel no guilt for performing such an act?

    This is *my* country, I feel a deep and abiding sense of guilt that the country that I love and have pledged my life to protect comitted such a horrible crime. My sense of honor that I learned in service to my country will not allow me to just shrug my shoulders and forget the crime.

    Honor and justice are inextricably intertwined, you cannot have one without the other. To walk away from such a horrendous crime is not just, it violates my sense of honor in a way that I lack the words to express.

    When the USA won WWII, a war in which we were attacked without warning, we did not walk away from those who attacked us. Rather, we helped them, we occupied them at our own expense in order to help the citizens of those countries maintain a civil society and not fall back into the savagery we see in Iraq. We helped them financially and materially. We helped them rebuild their industries and their homes. We helped them build, equip and operate hospitals for their multitude of wounded.

    And we did all this immediately after fighting a world wide war against two of the most powerful military machines on the planet, a fight which exhausted us physically, mentally and financially and in which we lost over 400,000 dead.

    Why did we do all this? Because in the long run it was the best choice for us. The lessons of the victory in WWI were learned, Nazi Germany arose from the bitter ashes of the German loss in WWI, a loss in which the victors, instead of helping Germany, made them pay reperations which made an already impoverished and devastated nation suffer even more. A suffering which made the German people bitter and angry, which led directly to the rise of Nazism.

    In contrast Iraq is a small, almost third world nation which we savagely attacked under false pretenses and then allowed to descend into savagery because we were too cheap to do the job right and commit the neccesary resources for the task at hand. We lost only about 140 troops in the kinetic combat portion of the invasion but, because we deliberately failed to plan for the occupation, we have lost nearly 3,000 more troops.

    Now we plan on walking away from Iraq and abandoning the Iraqi people to a cruel fate. The Iraqi’s will remember this injustice in their very bones and Arabs are a vengeful people with very long memories and a very strong sense of honor. We will pay, sooner or later, for our lack of compassion and honor that has led us to deny justice to the Iraqi people.

    That’s about as clear as I can make my thoughts on this subject, I think I’m done argueing with people that lack compassion, honor and foresight.

    Good night and good luck.

  456. 456.

    Pb

    February 3, 2007 at 1:50 am

    If you went into someones home uninvited and broke a priceless heirloom, how would you expect to be treated?

    Do you think you should be allowed to just walk away with no consequences?

    To extend the analogy a bit… if you’re a bull in a china shop, and you break something, should you then:

    a) Leave.
    b) Stick around.

    Ok, ok… but if you’re a bull in a china shop and you stuck around, and you’ve already broken, like, ten more things… well, see above, rinse, lather, and repeat.

  457. 457.

    Jonathan

    February 3, 2007 at 2:24 am

    I’m not going to argue any more Pb. I’ve said my piece as best I can. If you don’t understand my thoughts and feelings then I guess it’s my fault for not being able to express myself clearly enough.

    If you think it is just to walk away, then I guess you’ll have to deal with your own conscience. I know mine will be bothering me for the rest of my life.

    Sooner or later we will pay a horrendous price for our crime. Sixty two million people died in WWII, a war that happened because the Allies punished the Germans for starting WWI. Now we are punishing the Iraqis for a war which we started under false pretences, I hope the inevitable consequences don’t lead to far more deaths than WWII but somehow I doubt it. We have started a religious war and those are the most vicious kind.

    “With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil; – that takes religion.” –Nobel Laureate Steven Weinberg

    Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil because I’m the meanest motherfucker in the valley. –Marine Corps saying

  458. 458.

    Pb

    February 3, 2007 at 4:46 am

    Jonathan,

    Oh, I understand your position, I just don’t share it. I wish we hadn’t invaded Iraq–and I certainly was against it at the time. And I wish we could fix Iraq now, and do more good than harm–but I don’t see how, especially if we don’t leave. Humpty Dumpty has fallen, we pushed him, and he isn’t too fond of us anymore. For now, someone else is going to have to pick up the pieces. Is that responsible? Maybe–sometimes the best thing you can do is to just walk away. But it definitely sucks all around.

    And as for the religious war aspect of things–that’s why we really need to redeploy and contain this thing–because as I’m sure you know, if we ended up with a full-blown religious war across the Middle East, that’d be way worse than what we have now. And yeah, that might very well be the goal of the current administration, or at the least the end result of whatever their policies actually are.

    Cheers.

  459. 459.

    Jonathan

    February 3, 2007 at 6:59 am

    Pb,

    I see you sleep about as much as I do. ;-)

    I gotta tell you, I was kind of surprised at the amount of abuse, insults and foul language thrown my way by my fellow liberals simply because I disagreed with liberal orthodoxy. I tried hard to remain polite, as I always do, and yet supposed liberals kept up with personal attacks rather than dealing with my arguments in a calm, logical manner. I was not impressed.

    I’m used to getting personal attacks, abuse and insults from righties but I really thought lefties were a little better. I’ve learned a valuable and eye opening lesson that I will not forget.

    Even Darrell calmed down and treated me with respect when I pointed out that I had treated him likewise. I hate to think lefties are worse than Darrell but apparently that is so.

    As for Iraq, I don’t think there is anyone capable of picking up the pieces. No one but the US has anything approaching the manpower needed. The UN is not going to throw troops into that meat grinder and I doubt anyone else is all that eager to do it either.

    I have this sickening feeling that full blown religious war is inevitable and that it will come to the US sooner or later. Our borders are porous, documents can be forged and all it would take to send the US into a full blown panic is half a dozen or so sniper teams like the DC snipers spread around the country. Well trained and properly equipped snipers with serious money behind them would be much harder to catch than the DC snipers were.

    When panic comes, rationality leaves. I’m reminded of a line in Frank Herbert’s Dune: “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear… And when it is gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear is gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

    Fear is the mind killer for sure. In fear we will lash out at anything that is perceived to be an enemy and in doing so we will do nothing but create more enemies which will create more fear in an ever widening spiral of hate, fear and violence.

    Jihad vs McCrusade, coming soon to a location near you.

  460. 460.

    ThymeZone

    February 3, 2007 at 9:30 am

    gotta tell you, I was kind of surprised at the amount of abuse, insults and foul language thrown my way by my fellow liberals simply because I disagreed with liberal orthodoxy. I tried hard to remain polite, as I always do, and yet supposed liberals kept up with personal attacks rather than dealing with my arguments in a calm, logical manner. I was not impressed.

    Yeah, well this is pure shit.

    First, you are puffing yourself up. What makes you think that people are insulting you for any reason other than they just think you’re an ass and don’t like you?

    Second, you’re a passive aggressive jerk. This whole politeness thing you do is part of the act. Take note of the name of this blog. Take note of its legacy in the comments and the general rough tone and longshoreman language. You try to leverage phony politeness and phony erudition into something you can climb up on and look down upon other people. You constantly talk about how stupid other people are. Your posts drip with arrogance and condescension.

    This is what you deserve: Fuck you. Shut up. Get real. Stop trolling. Write shorter posts. Cut the crap. You aren’t really fooling anyone here.

    I write this obnoxious character just for the fun of it, and within its bounds, I can run circles around you here with one hand tied behind my back and doing three other things at the same time. You aren’t nearly as hot as you think you are, sport. If you aren’t a spoof, then you’re just another troll. If you are a spoof, good job, but it’s over.

    What happened to the bullshit Pariah troll, Jonny? Did you realize that you’d blown your cover with that one, and have to make up a new theme for the thread?

    Do you honestly think that there’s a future for the collossally dumb idea that the Pottery Barn rule now means that we broke Iraq, and therefore we are forever responsible for fixing a people who haven’t been able to stop killing each other for 1000 years? Are you seriously going to peddle that kind of crap and then ask people to take you seriously?

    Oookay. Then I’ll be here to make sure that there’s a pie in your face and a Kick Me sign on your back at all times. Watch your six.

  461. 461.

    ThymeZone

    February 3, 2007 at 10:14 am

    This is one reason why I know you are full of crap, Jonny.

    Between this NIE and the report of the ISG last year, any reasonable person can conclude that Iraq is probably headed for one of two states: Partitioned, split up into chunks that can at least manage to keep from becoming death machines to their own people, or, an ongoing larger death machine of chaos and civil conflict going on indefinitely.

    Those are the only two outcomes that are likely AFAIC. And US involvement there is not really that relevant. We can delay the inevitable, but not prevent it. The idea that somehow our presence there is a “good thing” because it allows us to keep our eyes on a pony is just bullshit.

    And you, Jonny Goebbels, are nothing but another fucking pony salesman. Pony pimp. Boo hoo, says Jonny, I in my infinite wisdom of Semper Fi plus the world’s biggest ethical mandate of my own making plus some crap I pulled out of my ass, have decided that my heart would break unless we Americans decided that since we broke Iraq, we now have a lifelong … no, beyond lifelong, because it may extend to our children … we will now saddle our children with a lifelong obligation to make Iraq all better again and turn it into Club Mesopotamia somehow.

    Without doubt, the biggest and most insane crock of shit ever proposed on this blog since I have been here these two years.

    Stuff it, Jonny. Take your delusional pony and ride it back to wherever you came from. If you believe it, you’re nuts. If not, then you’re just a troll. Either way, it’s crap.

  462. 462.

    Pb

    February 3, 2007 at 2:24 pm

    Jonathan,

    I gotta tell you, I was kind of surprised at the amount of abuse, insults and foul language thrown my way by my fellow liberals simply because I disagreed with liberal orthodoxy. I tried hard to remain polite, as I always do, and yet supposed liberals kept up with personal attacks rather than dealing with my arguments in a calm, logical manner. I was not impressed.

    You get what you put in–for example, explain to me how these arguments of yours were oh so calm and logical:

    Do you believe that the majority of the Iraqi people are fanatics who are not worth saving?

    Do you think that Iraqis are somehow a different sort of human being than Americans?

    Yeah. So put down the sackcloth and ashes and think about how your statements might have engendered the responses you received.

    As for Iraq, I don’t think there is anyone capable of picking up the pieces.

    Well in that case, your suggestions are way more fatalistic than mine.

    I have this sickening feeling that full blown religious war is inevitable and that it will come to the US sooner or later. Our borders are porous, documents can be forged and all it would take to send the US into a full blown panic

    In some ways perhaps it has begun–but when we do have another attack, I hope we manage to respond better as a nation. And yes, our borders aren’t secure, and apparently lite-brites are enough to send some people into full-blown panic mode.

    Fear is the mind killer for sure.

    Fear and self-righteousness, baby. Bob Altemeyer is covering it well.

  463. 463.

    TenguPhule

    February 3, 2007 at 7:48 pm

    If you went into someones home uninvited and broke a priceless heirloom, how would you expect to be treated?

    Do you think you should be allowed to just walk away with no consequences?

    If the owners of the house are telling to you to get out and start shooting at you, will you stay?

  464. 464.

    Zombie Santa Claus

    February 5, 2007 at 7:15 am

    If the owners of the house are telling to you to get out and start shooting at you, will you stay?

    Sure, for the right amount of cookies. This kind of thing happens to me all the time!

Comments are closed.

Trackbacks

  1. The Heretik : Locals Rule says:
    February 2, 2007 at 10:14 am

    […] The tribes aren’t going anywhere. Americans eventually will. The tribes know all clocks run on Baghdad time. Let the whack-a-mole games begin. Let us work with the Iraqi army that is the militia that is the army. Let our army surge under our general Petraeus, but let the Iraqis take the lead with their army which is the militia which is the army under their own chain of command. Let us continue to be chained to our own illusions as we really yank the Iraqi chain. […]

Primary Sidebar

On The Road - Deputinize America - Moorea 2024 2
Image by Deputinize America (7/14/25)
Donate

Recent Comments

  • Jim Brown on Boomer Nostalgia Open Thread: Nuclear Terrors (Jul 15, 2025 @ 6:38am)
  • Aussie Sheila on Late Night Open Thread: Obama Speaks (Jul 15, 2025 @ 6:37am)
  • Professor Bigfoot on Late Night Open Thread: Obama Speaks (Jul 15, 2025 @ 6:35am)
  • Baud on Late Night Open Thread: Obama Speaks (Jul 15, 2025 @ 6:34am)
  • TS on Late Night Open Thread: Obama Speaks (Jul 15, 2025 @ 6:32am)

Balloon Juice Posts

View by Topic
View by Author
View by Month & Year
View by Past Author

Featuring

Medium Cool
Artists in Our Midst
Authors in Our Midst
No Kings Protests June 14 2025

🎈Keep Balloon Juice Ad Free

Become a Balloon Juice Patreon
Donate with Venmo, Zelle or PayPal

Calling All Jackals

Site Feedback
Nominate a Rotating Tag
Submit Photos to On the Road
Balloon Juice Anniversary (All Links)
Balloon Juice Anniversary (All Posts)
Fix Nyms with Apostrophes

Social Media

Balloon Juice
WaterGirl
TaMara
John Cole
DougJ (aka NYT Pitchbot)
Betty Cracker
Tom Levenson
David Anderson
Major Major Major Major
DougJ NYT Pitchbot
mistermix

Keeping Track

Legal Challenges (Lawfare)
Republicans Fleeing Town Halls (TPM)
21 Letters (to Borrow or Steal)
Search Donations from a Brand

Feeling Defeated?  If We Give Up, It's Game Over

Donate

Site Footer

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

  • Facebook
  • RSS
  • Twitter
  • YouTube
  • Comment Policy
  • Our Authors
  • Blogroll
  • Our Artists
  • Privacy Policy

Copyright © 2025 Dev Balloon Juice · All Rights Reserved · Powered by BizBudding Inc

Share this ArticleLike this article? Email it to a friend!

Email sent!