The long-delayed National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) on Iraq is out. It’s a Friday so it must suck.
More at WaPo.
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Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
White supremacy is terrorism.
You can’t attract Republican voters. You can only out organize them.
Motto for the House: Flip 5 and lose none.
An almost top 10,000 blog!
When your entire life is steeped in white supremacy, equality feels like discrimination.
A last alliance of elves and men. also pet photos.
We’ve had enough carrots to last a lifetime. break out the sticks.
When someone says they “love freedom”, rest assured they don’t mean yours.
Usually wrong but never in doubt
The cruelty is the point; the law be damned.
Bark louder, little dog.
No one could have predicted…
Let there be snark.
Fuck these fucking interesting times.
Second rate reporter says what?
You are so fucked. Still, I wish you the best of luck.
Our job is not to persuade republicans but to defeat them.
I wonder if trump will be tried as an adult.
Too often we confuse noise with substance. too often we confuse setbacks with defeat.
Following reporting rules is only for the little people, apparently.
“I never thought they’d lock HIM up,” sobbed a distraught member of the Lock Her Up Party.
Republicans don’t want a speaker to lead them; they want a hostage.
I’m sure you banged some questionable people yourself.
Meanwhile over at truth Social, the former president is busy confessing to crimes.
James F. Elliott
Considering that its conclusion can be summed up as “You can’t call Iraq a ‘civil war’ because that doesn’t describe how incredibly bad the situation is,” then, yeah, I’d say it sucks.
Faux News
Still no “dancing and flowers” huh?
How about “cakewalk”?
jg
Did they at least remember Poland?
Bubblegum Tate
So when are the ponies expected to arrive?
Mike
I want my pony!!! And a jetpack too.
“They promised us jetpacks. Where is my jetpack?”
Pb
Iraq sucks, send more money. — George W. Bush
Jake
I guess the folks who put the NIE together are too genteel to use words and phrases like “Clusterfuck” and FUBAR. Of course I’m sure all we’ll hear from the WH and its supporters is “See? Toldya there’s no civil war!”
Yep, it’s just the birthpangs of a Yankee Doodle Democracy riding on a pony while eating candy.
Pb
No doubt this was Bush’s fundraising letter…
Keith
OK, civil war is out. How about “disastrophe”?
Tsulagi
So even after being run and rerun who knows how many times through the “George Deutsch” filters, not much lipstick on this pig. Guess that’s the only surprise. Apparently this was the best fluff piece they could write. We’re really screwed.
Would like to see far more of this NIE to find out if they include anything that wasn’t already known two years ago. Most of the three pages they released fall firmly in the No Shit dept.
dreggas
but don’t you know that the NIE is only glum because Iraq is just a success that hasn’t happened yet?
TenguPhule
No wonder they wanted it buried until after the elections. Not that it helped the bunglers in charge.
Andrew
Come on guys, Iraq is just experiencing a kinetic living situation.
Zifnab
I think the Intelligence Agencies all got together and decided to produce a report that wouldn’t let people keep saying, “It’s not our fault, we just got too rosey an estimate!” If anyone in the CIA is still voting Republican by the end of ’08, I’ll be floored.
Tsulagi
I wouldn’t. During Porter Goss’ tenure as DCI he Deutschified the CIA with a vengeance. I wouldn’t be surprised if they now have analysts with reports on the shelf saying dinosaurs were Adam and Eve’s pets 6,000 years ago.
Maybe Hayden will change that. Better, hopefully in 09 Bushlings and Gosslings will be swept out of there.
TenguPhule
QOTD.
TenguPhule
4th chopper goes down in Iraq
AFDII.
Ryan S.
Hmmm, How about a “roller coaster plunge to Civil hell, with a insurgent clusterfuck War”?
Paddy O'Shea
You can only wonder where this sad joke of an administration is going to be in 6 months time. There is no way that Fibs Bush and his handlers are going to be able to delay their defeat in Iraq for another two years.
Teak111
Between the Libby trial and the NIE friday release, it appears the emporer (I mean Cheney) really does have no clothes. The Sunday talk shows whould be interesting now that we know Tim R. is a weazal (who knew?).
Zifnab
Don’t say screwing your wife. Don’t say screwing your wife. Don’t say screwing your wife.
Screwing your… son?
mclaren
The name “Alkibiades” may ring a bell. Or,
mayhap, Epipolae.
For years now I’ve been comparing Iraq 2
to the Athenian Sicilian campaign during the
Peloponessian Wars.
Now it seems someone else has caught on to
the similarities:
http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=5914
Let’s hope our mess doesn’t end as badly. As you’ll
recall:
“The Athenians pushed on for the Assinarus, impelled by the attacks made upon them from every side by a numerous cavalry and the swarm of other arms, fancying that they should breathe more freely if once across the river, and driven on also by their exhaustion and craving for water. Once there they rushed in, and all order was at an end, each man wanting to cross first, and the attacks of the enemy making it difficult to cross at all; forced to huddle together, they fell against and trod down one another, some dying immediately upon the javelins, others getting entangled together and stumbling over the articles of baggage, without being able to rise again. Meanwhile the opposite bank, which was steep, was lined by the Syracusans, who showered missiles down upon the Athenians, most of them drinking greedily and heaped together in disorder in the hollow bed of the river. The Peloponnesians also came down and butchered them, especially those in the water, which was thus immediately spoiled, but which they went on drinking just the same, mud and all, bloody as it was, most even fighting to have it.” [Thucydides, The Peloponnesian War, Chapter 22]
Various right wingers will of course giggle and snicker at the idea that the U.S. Army could ever find itself cut off inside Iraq, surrounded, deprived of its supply lines, and frantically fighting to get to a source of water as their ammunition and food runs out. Earth to neocons: come in, neocons. The U.S. Army is not superhuman or immortal. Cut our supply lines to the south in Iraq, send in human wave attacks of insurgents to deplete our troops’ ammo, use stinger missiles and Russian RPGs to shoot down all the helos that try to resupply, and you’ve got the makings of one of the great military disasters in history.
Our big task now is to fight our way out of Iraq while we still can. Everything else is secondary.
demimondian
I’m in ur Wh1t3 Houze, breaking ur ARMIEZ!
Paddy O'Shea
Ok Zifnab, I’m screwing your wife.
But it wasn’t like I really wanted to.
Zifnab
My favorite is still:
John Edwards – 1|\| UR B45E t4|
Zifnab
:-p Cleary there is no love for punctuation
JOHN EDWARDS: IN YOUR BASE TAKING YOUR VOTES!
Paddy O'Shea
Naw, I could talk about punctuation all day!
And then there paint drying, grass growing, mole poisoning, cutesy self-referential inside jokes.
Bring it on!
Zifnab
A personal favorite
BadTux
Wow. Just wow.
Well, at least given the Iraqi’s recent success in shooting down our choppers, it appears that we won’t see any Saigon moment out of this war. No choppers lifting off from the roof of the U.S. embassy. It’ll be more a Dien Bien Phu moment, except with helicopters rather than cargo planes crashing out of the sky.
jake
That is a cakewalk, a slam dunk and also a pony ride through flowery green meadows. Just dust off the Mission Accomplished banner, declare victory and walk away briskly. Once safely home, send Iraq a bill for $350 brazillian dollars to cover “miscellaneous expenses” related to Freedomacracy Construction and Libertude Delivery.
When Baghdad burns to the ground express surprise and puzzlement. “Now how on earth did that happen?”
Accuse anyone who blames you for the disaster of wanting to keep the troops in harm’s way.
Richard 23
Again, the far left kooks show their hatred of the troops by celebrating every casualty. Can we question your patriotism yet?
Why do you mention the Mamiya 645 AFD II camera? You want a picture to masturbate to? Typical moonbat LLL BDS.
EL
I admit I’m not sure what AFDII means, but unless it means “Yay!”, how did you take this as “celebrating every casualty”? I took it as: “Things are turning to crap, and the surge isn’t helping.” Me thinks you are seeing what you want, interpreting ordinary statements to support your skewed view. Who have seen say “I hate the troops, I hope they get killed”?
tBone
Right on. Typical of these Leftards to be dancing in the aisles every time there’s a casualty (unless it’s an insurgent, in which case they don sackcloth and ashes, of course).
Thank God there’s still patriotic Americans like you and I fighting the good fight here at home, Richard.
Pb
Oh shit, Al Maviva’s home planet is invading Earth!
Pb
I’m going to go with “Another Fucking Day In Iraq”. But who knows, maybe it’s a camera? Has TEH GOOGAL evar 5+33R3D j00 wrong? Anyhow, you missed that one, so… bonus points if you can get “LLL BDS”.
Richard 23
I’m awaiting Mark Noonan’s definition.
Richard 23
So, Pb is an anti-semite? It’s all the fault of teh evil j00s, huh?
Of course, maybe I’m being steered wrong by your post. Too much sackcloth and not enough ashes. Probably some Islamosplodies were killed.
Pb
u gÖ++å WorK ÖN uR l3£+ §p3åK!
Richard 23
Yeah, I feel the same way about the Belgians, Pb.
But back on topic. It’s over, folks. It’s all over but the killing and the dying.
I don’t think Darrell clapped hard enough.
Jonathan
I think the chances of that happening are pretty remote. All the FOBs have at least a months worth of consumables on hand and human wave type tactics can be taken care of by fixed wing airpower which is far less vulnerable to stinger type rockets, Warthogs are flat deadly ground attack planes. Using RPGs aginst helos can be done but it’s very much a question of luck to do it.
Cutting off the supply lines for any length of time is a remote possibility. Sure, insurgents can take out a few trucks but to put a serious dent in the cargo capacity would take a lot of insurgents who then become vulnerable to airpower.
It could be done but it would take massed units of insurgents. We are the best in the world at taking out masses of enemy.
OK, you can go ahead and call me names now ;-)
Punchy
Uh…what war in Iraq? What NIE are you talking about? I just watched CNN FOR THE ENTIRE DAY YESTERDAY and then turned it on this morning for TWENTY MINUTES. It appears the ONLY THING going on in the world right now is a tornado in FL.
I’m serious. CNN is approaching 24+ hours of CONTINUOUS LIVE coverage of some debris and some trailer parkers who took dirt naps. Even the weather girl spent THE ENTIRE TIME JUST COVERING THE WEATHER IN CENTRAL FL. Apparently, there’s just no weather anywhere else.
Paddy O'Shea
Nobody should ever mention our casualties in Iraq. It makes the President look bad, and that only emboldens the terrorists.
Jonathan
Punchy,
If it bleeds, it leads.
Mike
I prefer “catastrofuck” myself.
ThymeZone
Okay. Are you the same Jonathan who was peddling that load of Pony manure over at the other thread last night?
That “we broke it, there we and our children and grandchildren are forever obliged to go on trying to fix it” horseshit?
Did you read the ISG report, Jonny? Did you read the NIE this week? This Iraq game is over. Iraq is going to end up either split up, or in perma-chaos, no matter what we do.
And here you are, Mister phony I’m all Semper Fi, mister The American People Are Too STupid to Govern Themselves, telling us pony stories.
Your act is now over, dude. Get some new material.
ThymeZone
This Pony thing is going to die a long, slow and horrible death.
Come on, Jonny Geobbels, Mister All You Americans Are Stupid Except For Me and My Smart Wife, tell us what it all means.
Just another day at the office, right? Get out those troll talking points, we need some good vibes right now, another 95 ponies just died today.
Lead us, Jonny. We need your wisdom.
ThymeZone
Best reaction to the NIE thing I’ve seen today, Maureen Dowd’s piece in NYT. If you don’t subscribe to their pay per view, you can still see the piece by just agreeing to a free trial. The piece is worth the aggravation.
Her bottom line: No matter how you spin the NIE today, it means one thing: In Iraq, we’re cooked. Her words, not mine. Hers are far wittier and more delicious today, but that’s the bottom line.
This game is so fucking over, it’s beyond over, now it’s basically keep playing until the clock runs out because anything else looks dorky, only the clock has stopped running and nobody can fix the fucking clock …..
Where’s Jonny? Isn’t he coming to tell us, darn it all you stupid little people who aren’t Marines and aren’t smart like me, don’t you see how we just can’t give up in Iraq? We jus’ can’t.
Where are the pony pimps? Where’s Darrell?
Redhand
Can someone explain the constant “Pony” references? It’s a bit too much inside baseball for me.
As for the NIE, it’s depressing as hell. It also elevates Cheney’s “enormous successes” madness to a new level of absurdity.
I keep thinking about the remarkable wisdom of Bush Sr. in not “finishing the job” in Iraq in 1991. At the time there were plenty of warning statements made that this kind of thing could be the result, including by Cheney himself.
When you look back, you really have to ask yourself, WHAT THE F*CK HAPPENED?” This has to rank as one of the worst foreign policy disasters in US history. Of all those responsible I condemn Cheney the most, since at one time he obviously knew better.
At best, I think we probably need to start a gradual withdrawal, so that the place doesn’t erupt in the way the NIE suggests it will if we depart en masse now. But we can’t start to leave quick enough for me; the surge is total bullshit. I’m tired of seeing American lives wasted over there, not to mention all the other mass killings that are taking place.
Civil war plus, indeed.
ThymeZone
Sure, it’s a metaphor for wishful thinking, magical thinking, delusional thinking.
Victory, success, democracy on the march … WRT Iraq, these are all ponies.
The pony is feelgood, unattached to any reality, not grounded in fact, empirical data, the situation on the ground.
The pony is the child’s reward for believing in bullshit.
It’s the payoff for the neocon theory of the world.
That’s my version.
tBone
ODPOTD (Obscene Descriptive Phrase of the Day)
I like it. Reminds me of college.
grumpy realist
There’s all the “Holden gets a pony!” jokes over at Atrios whenever Bush slides in the polls Once Again. (Atrios seems to dig up the most over-the-top Li’l Pony pictures when necessary.)
Well, while we’re all wondering about Iraq, the FT is concentrating much more on global warming….
Redhand
Re: “The Pony,” I figured as much; I was just wondering if there was a particular political incident that made the phrase a touchstone.
I’ve been a lifelong Republican, except for two unfortunate lapses: voting for Carter in 76 and Bubba in 92. But this debacle, and the craven Republican Congress during Bush 43’s Presidency, is causing me to re-think my entire political philosophy.
After Iraq I will never again believe that the Demos’ post-Vietnam syndrome makes the Repubs the only party one can trust with US foreign policy. That might have been true during the Reagan years, but it sure as hell isn’t now.
I never supported this f*cking Iraq “adventure” and always questioned the rush to war. But hey, if the Pres. and Powell and Condi say there are WMD there, maybe they know more than me. Given their insistence, I figured there had to be something of substance behind their claims. I also had the greatest reservations about the small force level we were using, and Rummy’s “transformation” bullshit.
When no WMD showed up, and especially when I started to see how screwed up the occupation was — no plans, no ideas, nothing except “stay the course,” well, we all see where that has led.
The one thing I am thankful for, in a way, is that I didn’t vote for President in 2000 and 2004. Had too much else happening in my life at the time, and was turned off by both parties. But I don’t feel that way now, either. As a voter in “the world’s only superpower,” I conclude that everyone of voting age in this country has a moral responsibility to elect leaders whom they think will never allow something like this to occur again.
ThymeZone
Not sure, don’t remember where the phrase came from.
Tsulagi
To flesh out your pony definition, TZ, I believe Reagan was the originator. He said something about how happy he was when he saw a big pile of shit because that meant there was a pony inside making it.
So if you follow Reagan’s shit to pony ratio and logic, makes full sense for Cheney to say they’ve achieved “enormous successes” in Iraq given the epic sized mountain of shit they’ve created there as proof.
ThymeZone
Tsu, thank you. Excellent summary. Great post.
Mike
I have never been able to understand this WRT to either party. I appreciate that you say that you are reconsidering, but how is it possible to justify loyalty to a party over loyalty to America itself? Please help me to understand what would make someone vote for a party line candidate over a more qualified candidate from another party? Would you rather have a completely unqualified person who promised to vote for the party line no matter what over someone who was simply more qualified to hold the office, even if you don’t agree with all of their positions?
ThymeZone
Mike, I describe myself as a lifelong Dem. And I wouldn’t go back and change any of that 40+ year experience (since my first vote). Sure, glad to defend it.
It’s not about loyalty to party over country. In the vast majority of situations, the policy differences between donkey and elephant are not things that put the country at risk. They’re ..differences of style, of vision, of execution.
In the small number of situations where the differences are profoundly important to the country, such as Iraq as a current and excellent example, the Dems are far from perfect, but they are the clear choice. And if they weren’t, then I wouldn’t be a Dem in that situation. When country requires voting against Dems, I can do it. Have done it. Voted against Jimmy Carter and for Ford. I like Carter but thought he was not up to the DC meatgrinder, and I was proven right. The machine in DC ate him for breakfast.
Anyway, speaking as a lifelong Dem, I fully support the Lifelong Dem choice with the occasional exception, and I reject the idea that such loyalty requires putting it above country. Lifelong Dem does not mean straight ticket, or blind allegiance.
What say ye?
ThymeZone
Thanks to a listmember for turning me on to this piece.
Fallows nails the Iran question.
Congress now has one and only one job, and that is to keep the insane White House away from war with Iran.
If they can’t do that, then the people are going to have to do it for them.
Mike
Thanks for responding that way TZ,
I guess I phrased it badly in my question, or maybe it is that lifelong Dems seem to be able to vote for for other party candidates a bit more readily than Republicans in my experience, but there are obviously a large number of people on both sides who continue to vote party line no matter what instead of voting for the best candidates.
I think one of the worst things to happen to voting is the addition of straight party line vote options at the top of the ballot. I know it gets more people to vote, but the additional people voting seem to have lowered the average voter intelligence level overall.
ThymeZone
I agree, I think that straight-ticket voting is a characteristic of the political machine.
I am not in favor of politics by machine, at all.
I basically don’t trust politicians in general.
Jonathan
Yep, that was me.
I’ve treated everyone politely, why do you respond with abuse and name calling over a difference of opinion?
You are actually worse than Darrell, when I pointed out to him that that I had treated him politely he agreed and immediately stopped calling me names.
But that’s OK, I just consider the source.
ThymeZone
What the fuck is with you? Ridicule and disdain are not abuse, unless you are a child. rRe you a child? Do you think that whiny shit is winning you points here?
Do you think your phony politeness is a good cover for the useless crap you post? Sorry, no sale.
Richard 23
Smooth, dude.
About the pony thing. I always thought of it as an unrealistic, even childlike desire for something that will never happen. Like a 12 year old girl living in an apartment asking her lower-middle income parents for a pony for Christmas.
The Bush adminstration wants candy and flowers in Iraq. They may as well ask for that pony for Christmas. They aren’t going to get either. Why not wish for something fun? The moon, Mars even.
And with that, I’m sure I’ve shed no light whatsoever. Pity.
ThymeZone
Because it’s not abuse, as explained, and it’s not about a difference of opinion. Wrong on both counts, per your usual rate of accuracy.
It’s about you being a troll, full of shit, peddling pure nonsense, talking as if the whole world is full of stupid people except for you and your family, puffing yourself up, and coating it all with an icing of sugary politness that is about as real as a three dollar bill.
That about cover it for ya?
Wilfred
Playing the Pony Game. Marc Lynch attributed it to Belle Awring:
See http://abuaardvark.typepad.com/abuaardvark/2006/11/index.html
Perry Como
It looks like we are exporting Iraq’s problems to Pakistan:
Point to note: Pakistan actually has WMDs. Nukes, in particular. Mission accomplished, bitches!
Rome Again
1. it was not just one tornado, there were tornados in 4 counties.
2. it was not just some trailer parks, brick and CBS homes also
3. it was not just some debris, it was massive
4. 19 people died.
But I guess you don’t care about any of those things, carry on.
ThymeZone
Hon, I think Punchy was being sarcastic.
ThymeZone
We really need a sarcasm warning label around here. I can lay it on so thick it would choke a hungry hyena.
Uh, that’s thick.
Ohhh, yeah.
{ long, hard pause }
Rome Again
Jonathan says:
Perhaps it’s dirty laundry to you sir, it is newsworthy to me.
Your song makes a stupid reference here on this subject. Brittany Spears, yes, that’s dirty laundry. Tornadoes are serious things, and deserve attention (especially in these days of global warming, which you might not see the signs of if news people never aired “dirty laundry”.
Also, in context to the Republican machine, they don’t air dirty laundry very often at all. So, you’re only “half-right”.
Rome Again
Jonathan didn’t take it that way, so neither did I, in that context.
ThymeZone
I see your point. Jonny Goebbels, of course, is just trying to be “friendly” to go along with his “polite” act.
He thinks this will buy him a pass to post his trollish nonsense and get away with it.
I think he is going to need a new routine.
Rome Again
Does that mean you’ll sell me a ticket to this show now? LOL
ThymeZone
I’ll have them hold it for you at the Will Call window.
Rome Again
Thank you so much. :)
ThymeZone
It is my great pleasure.
(And Jonny Goebbels thought he could teach ME about being polite? I laugh at his tiny sense of etiquette).
Rome Again
Yes, I’d say that that dirty laundry thing could have turned into it’s own propaganda machine.
Rome Again
Should I tell the truth TZ? That you’re the kindest man in the world? Or should I not blow that cover?
Oops, I may have already, but it looks like you outed yourself first.
ThymeZone
Jonny is just obsessed with his own skid marks.
Thus the laundry reference.
BadTux
Well, it’s also about him not being in Iraq. The war of words is over. Dear Leader is going to do what Dear Leader is going to do. It’s time to put your butt where your mouth is, dear sons. We need rifle toters more than we need keeboard punchers. It’s amazing how the people with the biggest mouths about how great the Iraq war is yada yada yada suck up their sphincter so fast when you ask them to REALLY support the war effort that you can hear the sucking sound from a coastline away, closely followed by the squakes of outrage that shortly follow from the yellow-bellied chicken hawk.
Me, I was with Molly Ivins on this one from day one. In January 2003 she said: I assume we can defeat [Saddam] Hussein without great cost to our side (God forgive me if that is hubris). The problem is what happens after we win. The country is 20 percent Kurd, 20 percent Sunni and 60 percent Shiite. Can you say, “Horrible three-way civil war?” And as George W. Bush himself once said, “Unrest in the Middle East causes unrest throughout the region.” If anything, she underestimated things. For example, there are at least TWO major Shiite militias out there, one pro-Iranian, one not (funnily, we’re supporting the one that’s pro-Iranian and bombing the one that’s anti-Iranian, how retarded is that?!). This isn’t a 3-way civil war. This is an N-way civil war, for a large value of N.
Molly Ivins“>We were right and you war supporters were wrong. Wishing for a pony won’t get you one. And wishing harder and shouting “I want a pony!” ain’t gonna do it either. Only boots on the ground will get the job done, and right now we don’t have boots. So if you still support the war, there’s only one way that counts: Sign up. If you’re out here in Central California (where I’m temporarily stationed), I’ll even give you a ride to the recruiting station! (Smirk, I can make that offer in full confidence that the yellow bellied chicken hawk ain’t gonna make me burn my gas, LOL!). If you really believe in the war, you’ll do what it takes to win it. If you still spout off but you’re not willing to do what it takes… well, you earn every bit of derision you get.
Rome Again
I think you’re right. Thus the level of amazement he seems to feel for himself.
ThymeZone
Lies! The kindest man in the world is the Dali Lama.
I am just the kindest man on the ward here.
Rome Again
Yes, teacher, I shall try to remember that, but, a question… what has the Dali Lama done for me lately?
Jonathan
Anyone who wasn’t blinded by ideology and was paying attention to the campaigns could have told in 2000 that Bush was going to be a disaster of epic proportions. For a little while I thought that maybe Bush was actually fairly smart and was just acting dumb to get the rube vote. I concluded fairly quickly though that unless he was an Oscar winning level actor he was indeed catastrophically stupid and willfully ignorant. Bush is shrewd and cunning and he has a good understanding of his base but beyond that he has a total tin ear and abysmal lack of empathy. Even the media told us, well yeah he’s not all that bright but hey don’t worry he’ll surround himself with the best advisers.
Remember the Republicans talking about how the adults are back in charge again right after the election? How do you feel about that now?
Right after 9/11 when Bush started talking about “this Crusade” I knew that we were in seriously deep do do. You had Al Qaeda screaming Jihad on one side and Bush screaming Crusade on the other. Both terms are virtually identical and mean religious war.
Religious wars are the most vicious and intractable. Take a look for instance at the Crusades, since I’ve already broached the subject.
That’s 195 years worth of warfare. Which is what I’m afraid that we are in for. A religious war is exactly what Bin Laden wanted to foment and Bush has given it to him in spades. The catastrofuck (great phrase BTW) in Iraq has convinced much of the Muslim world that the US is at war against Muslims and has convinced the Arabs that the US is a racist, colonialist, imperialist power which is only after the oil which lies beneath their lands. Actually, I don’t much disagree with that view myself.
From the perspective of the West there have been two catastrophically evil ideologies in fairly recent history, communism and fascism. But from the non Western perspective there have been three catastrophically evil ideologies, communism, fascism and colonialism. Colonialism killed at least as many people and caused as least as much misery and suffering in non Western societies as either communism or fascism did in the West. We in the West don’t even realize this.
Why do you think Israel causes so much unrest and violence in the Mideast? It’s not so much the difference in religion but rather that Israel acts like and is viewed by the people in the Mideast as a colonial power. The last vestiges of colonialism in the Mideast did not go away until after WWII so the memories there are fairly fresh.
Iraq was carved out of the shattered Ottoman empire in 1920 by the British. It was deliberately designed to have mutually hostile ethnic, religious and tribal groups. That was SOP for the Brits in the largest empire the world has ever seen. The way a few Brits ruled colonies of tens of millions of wogs was by setting the various wog factions against each other. When one faction became too powerful, the Brits would arm another weaker faction with modern weapons and give them military training and then set the weaker faction against the one which was becoming too powerful. The wogs always hated each other more than they hated the Brits, so this strategy was enormously successful.
Fast forward to today. The US has invaded Iraq with a very small force, destroyed the mechanisms of governance in the country and deliberately or not set the different factions against each other. We are even taking notes from the Brits by arming and training one faction to take on another faction. The Iraqis are not stupid or ignorant, they know that the only real reason the US is in Iraq is because it sits on top of the second largest petroleum field in the world. This perception by the Iraqi’s was only confirmed an inflamed by the fact that immediately after the invasion the only things that the US bothered to protect were the oil fields and the oil ministry.
The US may not perceive itself as a colonial power but that’s what it is and what it is seen as by non Western societies. As I pointed out, colonialism for the non Western world is rightly perceived as equally as evil as either communism or fascism and as racist as fascism.
That’s the situation in as small a nutshell as I can manage. Where it goes from here no one can really predict, but none of the prospects look anything other than bleak at best.
ThymeZone
The Dalai Lama speaks to us:
ThymeZone
That’s rich, asshole, coming from the guy who tried to peddle the “Fix Iraq Forever” troll only last evening.
Dya think you are posting to a bunch of morons here who can’t connect the dots in your crazy rants?
Give it up, man. The curtain came down already.
Rome Again
Three words that should never have been in the same thought:
Bush, Fairly, and Smart!
You actually thought Bush was smart at some point? Okay, I’m just going to ignore whatever you say now, that’s it.
Are you NUTS?
ThymeZone
The Dalai Lama.
ThymeZone
The Dalai Lama.
One could argue that the Iraq catastrafuckupdisastrophe is the direct result of being out of alignment with this principle. Every day that passes in that state of misalignment is another lost day.
Rome Again
I could have said it in less words. I have a saying, I made it up on my own, I’ve been saying it for over 20 years:
“If we keep progressing, we may just progress ourselves right off this earth”
You may not understand that, compared to what the Dali Lama was saying, but just think in the following order:
1. The Dali Lama was right
2. The military industrial complex is the result of what the Dali Lama said being taken to some far conclusions
3. My saying fits perfectly.
It might be a bit of a slippery slope, but #2 is already well in place, so #3 doesn’t look that far fetched.
ThymeZone
Yes, Rome, agreed. I see the MI Complex and the Neocon vision of the world as being the direct opposite of the principle expressed by the Dalai Lama.
The New American Vision, which is a twisted vision of hegemony at the point of a gun or at the point of detonation of a guided WMD, is without moral basis.
Aerial warfare is stylized and sanitized terrorism. It’s the suicide bomber without the suicide. Precisely that and nothing more or less.
Rome Again
I wholeheartedly agree with that.
We just said the same thing, you more eloquently than I.
Rome Again
Yes, teacher, I see that. Thank you for your guidance.
ThymeZone
Well, thank you. I just ask, What would Jesus, my yard man, say?
Sometimes I get a good answer. Sometimes I just get a blank stare. Jesus can be taciturn.
Rome Again
Depends on his mood I think, I hear he can get pretty mean sometimes. At least, that’s what some guy named John told me.
ThymeZone
John the Baptist, my pool guy?
Rome Again
You never told me about him. I was unaware that you had taken on his services. Keep an eye out, he can be a bit crazy sometimes.
ThymeZone
The Dalai Lama.
Rome Again
I’m sorry that it took you that long.
I knew we were in seriously deep doo-doo when I heard that announcement that my wonderful state of FL SCOTUS decided he was president. My thoughts were:
1. We never killed Saddam
2. It is firm belief that Saddam tried to kill Bush’s father
3. Oh God, we’re going to end up in Iraq.
Mind you, this was BEFORE 9/11.
I don’t need you to tell me what you surmise AFTER the fact, I was already completely aware.
ThymeZone
It might be the chlorine.
Rome Again
Chlorine: the MI Complex taken to the household level; includes many questionable substances such as bug spray, ammonia, muratic acid…
Richard 23
This is exactly why I don’t understand why you want “us” to stay in Iraq because “we” broke it for the sake of honor. Religion, honor, empire, oil, whatever the reason, it doesn’t really matter. Iraq is lost. It’s over.
So stop enabling Bush to continue to give bin Laden more of what he wants. It’s killing us.
Why you want arguably the stupidest, most incompetant leader in US history to keep wacking the pony pinata for flowers and candy (or honor if you prefer) is beyond me. If you look closer, it’s not a pinata at all. It’s a hornet’s nest. Things won’t get better by continuing to whack at it.
It’s time to walk away and let the Iraqis sort out their own nation. They are not our colony. And we won World War II in less time.
Apologize, profusely, and back away. Put down the stupid stick. Continuing to us it won’t fix anything.
ThymeZone
You just reminded me, when I was a kid, those cans of household WMDs under the kitchen sink had skulls and crossbones on them. Graphic.
Now we have a government that should have a fucking skull and crossbones on it.
Rome Again
Yup, what Richard 23 said.
Rome Again
Good point. I keep saying they act like pirates anyway.
cd6
re: ponies
There’s a story where if there’s a huge pile of manure/shit then there must be a pony in there somewhere.
Then some wingnut wrote an article about the pony in slavery
see wonkette (according to them, the quote was from reagan)
Rome Again
Methinks these are the words of teacher’s teacher.
I like them very much.
Richard 23
“Deadliest single bombing” yet in Bagdad – 135 dead
It’s a good thing we’re there fixing things and defending our honor and our freedom. Let’s stay there forever. It’s the right thing to do.
Rome Again
How many more until you’ve finally had enough Jonathan?
scs
You know Lefties seem to have a problem with the fine shades of vocabulary. They keep asking for the President to call Iraq a civil war. First of all- why- what’s the difference what you call it. Second of all, I would think you would need a certain level of cohesion among the factions to constitute a civil war. Any fight between groups is not a civil war – ie a gang fight is not a civil war. I would think you would need one centralized group to fight another, with some sort of governing method for each group, like our US civil war was. Since there doesn’t seem to be much cohesion and centralization or government holding the various factions together, and is more of a loose nebulous grouping of competing interests, I would still call it a “sectarian war”, not a civil war.
ThymeZone
Have we finally turned a corner in Iraq?
ThymeZone
Yes, we can actually tell the words apart, unlike you, if that’s what you’re asking.
Good God. Just when we couldn’t imagine you any stupider, you amaze us again.
Rome Again
If you had an entire country of gang members, it would in fact be a civil war. Call it what you like, when the bombs come perpetually flying down on your head, you’d know the difference.
You think gangs don’t have any cohesion? You think they have no code of conduct? You would be wrong.
ThymeZone
Who cares what you call it? The NIE calls it “over.”
Jonathan
You missed my point. I said I thought Bush may be fairly smart but just *acting* dumb to get the rube vote.
It was hard to imagine someone actually that stupid making it all the way to the Republican primaries when I started paying attention.
Rome Again
Sounds like you have a lot of learning still Jonathan. Look at Reagan, look at Nixon, come on, you can’t tell me this is the first time. Mind you they weren’t the idiots that Bush is, but if their vision of our future held through the ages, we’d probably be fish food right now.
Richard 23
I totally agree. “Clusterfuck,” “over,” “unnecessary,” etc. It’s all the same to me. Call it what it is if you can though. No need to be intentionally misleading. “Cakewalk,” for example.
Jesus Christ. What’s the difference what you call it? Wasn’t that your “point?” Why, scs? Why?
ThymeZone
LMAO.
It’s a mystery of the sea, I think.
Jonathan
Language is about perception, just like Repubicans constantly referring to the Democratic party as the Democrat party. It is an attempt to frame the terms of the debate. To call the Democratic party by it’s true name implies that the Democratic party support democratic ideals.
It’s also an attempt to make Democrats appear weak by constantly calling them by the wrong name and seeing that they never stand up for themselves and call bullshit on the rude, passive agressive behavior of the Repubicans.
In the minds of most people a civil war is more serious than sectarian violence. Hell, a lot of Americans have not a clue what sectarian means anyway.
Rome Again
Sounds like scs just recently got back from that right-wing “ra-ra” fest where they told the downtrodden righties that all is not lost, you just have to yell louder and victory will be achieved.
Hey scs, you lost, get over it.
Back into the closet with you, this time I’ll use a padlock.
tBone
Re: pony meme.
I thought it was a mutation of the “if wishes were horses, beggars would ride” proverb.
ThymeZone
You apparently think that you can puff yourself up by calling mass numbers of people clueless, stupid and ignorant on a regular basis.
Hint: It ain’t working. Cut the passive aggressive con job. “PEOPLE ARE NO DAMNED GOOD!” That’s really what you mean, isn’t it?
Rome Again
Well, Jonathan, I gotta hand it to you, you’re still okay sometimes, I guess. This quote is definitely one of those times.
ThymeZone
Jonny is the expert on passive aggressive behavior. See his constant whines about “polite” conversation and then see his constant dismissal of Americans and voters as stupid, ignorant and clueless.
The guy is a walking rage incident waiting to happen.
BadTux
Re: Bush in 2000: Count me amongst those who didn’t believe the Lefties when they said, “Bush is going to be a disaster!” I’m on record (check Google Groups for November 2000) as saying, “c’mon, a moderate Republican leader isn’t a disaster. At least he’ll keep the budget balanced and keep us out of wars. Quit soiling your knickers.”
Boy was *I* wrong.
As for what to call the situation in Iraq, it’s pretty much the same situation as the Lebanese Civil War, which even Ronald Reagan had no problem calling a civil war (and getting out troops out of there ASAP once he decided it wasn’t worth American lives, unlike Mr. “Stay the Course”), but call it whatever the hell you want — “civil war”, “sectarian violence”, “clusterfuck”, whatever. It is what it is. And what it is, is disasterous, whatever noun you use.
Rome Again
Okay, so it was only a tangerine instead of a mandarin, but, it was close. I gave credit for it.
ThymeZone
:-)
Rome Again
Actually, I’m going to give scs a pony, of a sort. You’re right scs, it isn’t civil war, we’ve gone beyond that point now. What we now see happening is nothing short of CHAOS.
Chaos has been achieved, thank you very much, please leave your 3-D glasses in the bin as you leave.
BrianM
I’m pretty sure this is the original Pony post. I remember it spreading into a number of liberal blogs, back in the day.
Richard 23
For scs:
According to the NIE:
ThymeZone
{ whinnies }
Flicka!
Mike
I will say one good thing about Jonathan. He supported my description of Iraq, “catastrofuck”.
Rome Again
Gee, and I thought it was Melissa Etheridge’s song “Brave and Crazy”. Who knew?
ThymeZone
It is definitely a keeper.
Rome Again
Well, I’d rather you get rid of it, if you don’t mind, but if we must…
Rome Again
Sorry, not you, per se… but “we”
I’d rather “we” get rid of the whole fucking mess.
ThymeZone
No worries. We are in this together.
Rome Again
Will you keep me coming while the danger is all around?
Rome Again
Whoops, company I meant, company…
Hmmmmm, I’m not well today.
ThymeZone
I will certainly do what I can.
Rome Again
I’m just typing too fast, sorry… (breathe, breathe)
TenguPhule
Shorter Scs: *Gulp* Thank you Mr. Cheney, may I have another?
ThymeZone
Sometimes, we just have to tell our fingers to slow down, to pause.
Rome Again
Exacadecally!
jake
Sectarian? Wasn’t that a race horse or sumthin’?
I think this is one of those cases where any American with half a brain can figure out that no matter what one calls the situation in Iraq, it ain’t good. Many Americans also realize that even if they called it Sparkle Pony Funtime, people are being killed, we’re stuck in the middle and the Codpiece-in-Chief is to blame.
Rome Again
Sounds like complete madness to me.
Rome Again
Pausing long and hard… again!
ThymeZone
Luckily, we have scs and Darrell on whom to test these hypotheses.
ThymeZone
Indeed. Pauses are good. Very very good.
Rome Again
Nah, I think the brainwash is too far advanced to make them likely candidates.
Rome Again
Glad you understood that was a faux pas, and didn’t get mad. WHEW!
ThymeZone
I only get mad when they move my food dish.
Rome Again
Okay, I’m safe. Thank you.
ThymeZone
Yes. Very.
demimondian
One of the things I liked about the Fallows article the TZ linked to above is that he talks about moving from a position of “we can’t afford to leave” to a position of “we can’t afford to stay”. That’s the key point: in Iraq, our continued presence is now doing more harm than good, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
Maybe, if the war had been handled differently, that would not be so, but, right now, it is, and no amount of wishing will change that.
Rome Again
Right, and no amount of “honor” will justify it either.
Redhand
Well, actually, my votes for Carter and Clinton were examples of my voting for the candidate I thought was best for the country rather than “the party line.” My concerns prior to the end of the Cold War were with the threat the USSR posed. It seems hard to remember now, but they really were vicious opponents. But I voted for Carter because I was outraged by the excesses of Watergate and by the Ford Pardon, which I still think was the wrong decision. I voted for Clinton post-Cold War because I thought Bush 41 was out of touch with the everyday concerns of Americans in a faltering economy and that it was time for a change.
I do think that radical Islam is a threat to us, as proved by 9/11, but our response has been a disaster. We should have limited ourselves to taking out the Taliban in Afghanistan and raids against key Al-Q figures instead of embarking on this Iraqi madness. The best I think we can hope for now is a defacto partition of the country and a “peace” brokered by an international group of some kind. The worst case outcome is that the entire region descends into a sectarian, Sunni-Shiite conflagration, for which we bear moral responsibility.
Above all, we need new leadership in Washington at the Presidential level. It’s at times like this that I wish we had a British parliamentary system that could change the Chief Executive. Bush and his entourage are completely incapable of dealing with the debacle they’ve created.
ThymeZone
Every Sunday morning, ABC This Week puts up a list of American troops killed in Iraq. Today, there were seventeen names.
Am I the only one here who literally gets sick every time he hears this kind of thing?
I’m sending email to my congresscritters today to tell them I support withdrawal at the earliest possible time.
Rome Again
They won’t listen, especially “Son of Cain”. I still think it’s a good idea, but, you cannot expect that it will make an impact hon.
ThymeZone
It’s a small thing, but it’s also a personal affirmation.
Rome Again
Hmmm, somehow I thought you would already be “personally affirmed”.
ThymeZone
It’s a process that requires renewal.
Rome Again
Understandable. Carry on!
ThymeZone
I must pause.