Sully links to this anti-Hillary ad, which is a play on the old Apple 1984 commercial, and it really does cut to the core of my problem with Hillary.
I have defended her in recent years, because she really has been a centrist since becoming a Senator (not that centrism is in and of itself a good thing, but more often than not her viewpoint has been sane and rational). At the same time, I am reminded of how the perception still holds that she will say and do anything to get elected to whatever the next office might be.
That might seem unfair, and people are always unfairly claiming that ‘politicians will say anything.’ In some cases, that is completely unfair (think Dennis Kucinich). Sometimes it is is more or less fair- think Bush, McCain, Romney, Biden, etc. But with Hillary, you get the feeling that it is an understatement. I really do think she will say or do ANYTHING to get elected, and not think twice about it.
Maybe I am being unfair, maybe my perceptions are way off base, but that is my problem with Hillary. Were I forced to choose between Hillary and Dennis Kucinich (what an awful choice for me), I would choose Dennis every time. Even those his positions in no way resemble mine, and Hillary often does take similar positions as me, I would vote against her. Without even flinching.
Discuss.
*** Update ***
And even I am taken- Kucinich is a fraud. Not that I would have ever voted for him anyway. In light of this, were I forced to vote for Kucinich or Hillary, I would vote for…. James Stockdale. If this makes it easier to illustrate my point, insert Paul Wellstone’s name instead of Kucinich.
Pb
That probably is unfair–if Hillary Clinton really would “say or do ANYTHING to get elected”, then she should have shifted her stance on Iraq long ago. But I’d definitely stick Bush, McCain, and Lieberman in that camp–they’ve already said all sorts of things in the past to get elected, and then when push comes to shove (or just for kicks), ended up doing the opposite. Can you honestly say the same about Hillary Clinton? I really don’t know the answer to that, because I don’t know what her record has been like in the NY Senate, or what she campaigned on, but New Yorkers in general seem to have warmed up to her, so she must have done something right.
That having been said, I don’t really want to see Hillary get elected, she’s probably my last choice for the Democratic nomination. But if she got it, I’d probably still vote for her, and who knows, maybe she’d change my mind. But at the moment, the 1984 comparison seems somewhat off-base–if I were to worry about what an authoritarian candidate from New York might do to the country, then I’d be worrying about Giuliani instead.
Mike S
I can’t think of a single Republican in the field that I would vote for over Hillary. And even though there may be some truth to what you say there is no doubt that she would be a far far better President than Bush.
Redleg
Shorter John Cole: “My candidate is Dennis Kucinich.”
LOL- I know that is an incorrect interpretation of your statement but funny nonetheless.
Doubting Thomas
I understand John’s distaste for triangualtion and there is no question the Clinton’s have mastered the technique. I just don’t understand why its worse when they do it than any other candidate. Can’t you say the same thing about McCain and Romney? Haven’t their triangulations been as spectatular as Hillary’s?
And, really John, would you rather vote for Kucinich and policies you don’t agree with over Clinton and policies you do agree with simply because she is too brazen about wanting to be President? And if you say that, yes, I would vote Kucinich, then what is the use of voting for people whose policies you agree with? Should we all just vote for the candidate who seems to be the most humble? Isn’t that how we got Bush in the first place?
Richard Bottoms
>Without even flinching.
And that’s why I don’t care if we have your vote or not. If Hillary coms out of the convention as our nominee then that’s who I am voting for.
Or are we supposed to fall for a Republicans being better for gays, blacks, the war effort, the environment, and fiscal sanity. Just saying those words should make a sane person bust out laughing.
Fuck that noise.
There are no good Republicans.
There are no bad Democrats.
Period.
Mike S
That’s crap. Some of the best people I know are Republicans.
And one only need mention Jefferson from N.O. to name a “bad Democrat.”
Mr Furious
It’s worse because she’s a Clinton.
That’s it.
She isn’t doing anything that every other politician of similar stature doesn’t do. But she’s Hillary Clinton, and that’s the scouting report.
What McCain has done over the last 10 months is far and away more of a sell-out than anything hillary ever said to win in NY or will say to win the White House. And Romney is worse, but he is by comparison to thhe other tow an unknown quantity that has yet to be defined to the public.
I don’t like Hillary much either, she would be pretty far down on my list of desired candidates, but she will get my vote over any Republican.
dreggas
Honestly, I can empathize with John on this because Hillary does strike me as the do anything say anything candidate to get elected, albeit the fact she has not changed her war stance but then again even that could be seen as pandering to the AIPAC crowd. However given her vs. the current crop of republican “candidates” (more like short bus rejects) I would vote for her any day over them.
It’s obvious she wants it and wants it badly, hell she probably calculated this as her time to run rather than back in ’04 knowing she’d have a good shot and while it may be good advice to distrust those who want it too badly I am going to wait and see what she has to say, it’s early yet and given the current administration I’d vote for a single celled organism for president simply because even though an amoeba has less than 2 brain cells to rub together it is more qualified than Bush.
Dug Jay
I think that you’re being a bit hard on her. On the other hand, it would be interesting to know what others think, if they could be reached….including, Kathy Ferguson, Bill Shelton, Susan Coleman, Jon Parnell, Ed Wiley, Mary Mahoney, Luther Parks, Don Ives, Kevin Henry, Herschell Friday, Paula Gober, Johnny Lachon, Paul Tulley, among many others.
The Other Steve
Can you give an example?
I know one frequently cited is her going after video games, like GTA. But I’m not sure that’s an example of saying anything, but rather she seems to be pretty consistent in that area and it seems more a position of different focus… i.e. mother of children, rather than single 30 year old adult video game player(the prototypical Libertarian).
Even then, that position is always exagerrated. All she wants is the video game ratings to mean something, and it be the responsibility of the parents as to whether their child is allowed to play games rated mature. Seems reasonable to me to leave this up to the parents, and provide them with the information they need to make an informed choice.
Otherwise, I have never found anything about her that one could categorize as hard-left. She’s always been a centrist. Some of what she says pisses off people on the left and right, but that’s because they largely misinterpret it.
The Other Steve
Anybody running “wants it too badly”. You gotta have a big ego to think you are deserving to be President.
I’m not a fan of Hillary, but I don’t have her either. I’d prefer someone fresh in there than another Clinton or Bush.
But the criticism I see leveled at her from the right and left, is generally unfair.
Zifnab
Here, here!
I can tell you exactly why I don’t like Hillary Clinton. She’s too big business, she’s too centerist, she’s too Blue Dog Democrat, and I genuinely would like some new blood in the White House rather than alternating another Bush for another Clinton over the next 8 years. I don’t like Clinton because she’s just too Republican.
That said, I see way too much hate thrown her way simply because of her last name. As far as I can tell, Clinton is 10 times the man John McCain has revealed himself to be – talk about say or do anything – and I’d vote for a Hillary ticket over Falwell’s new best friend any day of the week.
There are alot of good reasons not to vote for Hillary in the primary, but to be honest, I can’t see anyone in the Republican field that tops her. Guiliani’s a bigger thug. Gingrich oozes buckets more slime. Multi-Choice Mitt is a socially conservative nightmare second only to Sam Brownback. And don’t even get me started on Hunter/Thompson/Tancredo/Michael Savage who are all the same candidate as far as I can tell and all batshit crazy.
Seriously, show me a Republican who’s got an ounce more ethics and credibility than Hillary?
dreggas
Well if I were a parent (and not hogging all the gaming action to myself being just married) I probably wouldn’t need a ratings system to tell me that my 10 year old shouldn’t be playing a game entitle Grand Theft Auto. Of course I was also raised by parents who paid attention to me and raised me to know right from wrong and not take my cues from violence on television and eventually video games.
Of course I had the same issue with the parental advisory notices put onto music for the same reasons, namely if parents were paying attention (and my parents did even suffering through Metal music) then they’d know what their kids were doing.
dreggas
As far as ones with name recognition…the majority are dead. As for living ones I can’t think of any.
kchiker
At least you recognize her for the moderate she is. The Hillary-haters basically see her as Stalin in a dress. (That would actually be Rudy).
Biggest reason I can vocalize…for my reluctance re: Hillary is that I have had enough political dynasty. A Hillary presidency would make a Jeb Bush 2012 candidacy pretty likely if not inevitable.
I’d change my registration to Republican if John Danforth were to run. In the meantime, I’ll nervously push the D no matter what.
Tlaloc
“There are no good Republicans.
There are no bad Democrats.”
Gee, what about William Jefferson?
There are plenty of bad Democrats. In fact the vast majority of Dems and Republicans are corrupt assholes. There are very few principled politicians because it is a self selecting game that rewards corruption.
By the time anyone manages to climb to the top of the heap they’ve sullied themselves in so many ways that we might as well make election to the office of the president/senator, or appointment to the SCOTUS, a crime.
Oregonian
I hate to play the sexism card, but it really seems to me that many people are holding Hillary to a higher standard simply because she’s a woman.
We don’t really mind a man being less than honest. In many cases, it can make him seem cunning and smart. But we expect our women to be pure and honest, and we absolutely revile them when they stray from that. Just look at the different responses to the Martha Stewart and Scooter Libby verdicts. Both of them were convicted of lying to investigators, but Scooter is widely seen as a victim (or at least a clever rogue) while Martha is seen as a nasty, lying witch who deserved a long sentence.
The presidential race is full of men who have been willing to shift positions to catch the political winds. Just look at McCain’s speech at Falwell’s university or Giuliani’s newfound respect for gun rights. Hell, Romney’s whole campaign seems to be about repudiating the state where he once was governor! These men are clearly saying whatever they need to say to be elected.
And Hillary? She’s, um, putting on a southern accent that isn’t really hers and, um, talking a little bit less about health care and… that’s about it. There just isn’t the same level of pandering in her campaign. I don’t like her position on the Iraq war, but it’s really, really hard to see that she’s chosen that to improve her odds in the Democratic primary. Thoughts?
28 Percent
Heh, we have been telling you that she is no good from the start. First she was a Goldwater girl, then she was a corporate lawyer, then she was a Clintonite who would not stay home and bake cookies. Like I said, real Americans knew from the start that she was no good, just a hard-left ex-hippie authoritarian and we have been telling you that for fifteen years now. It is good to see that you are paying attention.
Randolph Fritz
Since Hilary became a Democrat, she’s pretty much been a conservative Democrat; she seems to me to have stuck to her ideals. I also think she’s Another Damn Authoritarian. Still, in the choice between just about any of the Republican field and Hilary Clinton, I’d take Hilary Clinton.
Gore/Clinton ’80!
Richard Bottoms
>Gee, what about William Jefferson?
What about him?
Indict him and then replace him with a fucking Democrat.
By the way, just how many troops has William Jefferson sent into battle to die for a grossly mismanaged war?
I think the half-trillion dollars sent down the rat hole, along with 23,000 severly wounded vets who have to fight to get benefits outweighs any corruption on the part of some dickhead senator.
Darrell
Right here just a week or so ago.. changing her accent in order to make herself sound Southern twang to better “connect” with the audience. Phony through and through.
Richard Bottoms
It’s the continuing idiocy of Republicans and whatever independents can be suckered.
McCain is not some misunderstood moderate but an anti-abortion ideolouge who attacked the religious nuts in his party only bend over smartly now that he needs them.
Mitt Romney has overnight repudiated every stand he ever took on abortion, gay rights, and social issues.
Who the fuck is Sam Brownback anyway?
Fred Thompson has a better chance of getting a remake of Barbarians at the Gates made than becoming president.
Hagel? Yes, hell will be freezing over this evening.
It’s Hillary, Obama, Edwards, or Gore. And I don’t give a damn which one it is, as long as this nightmare of the GOP running things comes to an end.
Tsulagi
Of course your feelings can be anything you wish. Hillary sure isn’t my fave, but to say she surpasses those four guys, and that is an understatement? I call bullshit.
Pb
Hunter Thompson is running? I’d vote for him–even dead, he’d do a better job than any of the Republicans, and probably some of the Democrats, too.
Richard Bottoms
So fucking what.
$500,000,000,000,000 dollars later maybe folks finally realize it’s kind of important the president not be an ADD afflicted dimwit who you’d like to have a beer with.
The Other Steve
And the same problem with movie ratings?
What would be better? Ratings. Or James Dobson telling you what you can listen to?
The Other Steve
Is Norm Coleman phony?
The Other Steve
Good point. Darrell’s judgement on who to vote for President is rather suspect isn’t it?
Darrell
You’re right, Dems ought to try and impeach that drunken tyrant in the White House right now.
Hey, maybe when Hillary visits the UK she’ll address the audiences with a cockney accent!
Mike S
Comming from the guy who worships Bush, that is quite funny.
dreggas
I have issues with it, yes. To me it’s a nanny state policy and while not nearly as strict as what James Dobson would want it is still, at its core, a form of censorship. Further the use of a simplistic ratings system further removes the responsibility of parents to be parents and keep an eye on what their kids are doing.
It’s far easier to slap an R rating on a movie or put a chip in a TV than it is to actually be an informed parent and keep an eye on a preview of a movie or TV program and say…uh I don’t want my kid watching it. Same goes for video games and music.
It’s even getting to the point where some are demanding the banning of certain Tom and Jerry Cartoons because Tom smokes in some. Hell you can’t even watch a bugs bunny cartoon anymore because it may be too violent and forget ever seeing porky pig or speedy gonzalez (who, despite the stereotype was always the “hero” in his cartoons) because people are too damn sensitive.
JWeidner
Sad to say, but this is the main reservation I have against Hillary myself. I just can’t see myself voting to put another Clinton in the WH after 2 Bush family members have held the position. Call it shallow, I don’t care. But I have a real problem with the presidency alternating between 2 firmly established political families over the course of 24-28 years (assuming at least one Hillary win), to say nothing of the near-certain resurgence of Jeb Bush at some future date.
Sure, right now, the Bush family name looks pretty soiled, but 2012, or even 2016 is a loooooong way off. And, as a general rule, the American people have relatively short memories, and are eager to forgive. I don’t see Jeb being held responsible for George’s blunders forever, particularly if he’s able to effectively distance himself from George in terms of capability (not really much of a stretch). Not to mention, he’s the kind of candidate that the Republican religious base can rally around, which makes him a legitimate threat no matter when he runs.
I mean, I think about the fact that the presidency has already alternated between the Bush and Clinton families for 20 years (or rather, will have, by the end of this term). And factor in George Sr.’s stint as VP, and you’re looking at 28 years in which these two families have been in the mix for the highest office in the country, and I just can’t bring myself to say, “Yeah, put another one of them into office.”
That said, if the Dem nomination does go to Hillary Clintock, I have no idea WHAT I’ll do, as I can’t justify voting Republican either – not after this administration.
If I didn’t know better, I’d think we were dealing with two members of the aristocracy, battling it out for the throne. Or, in Hollywood terms, “War of the Roses, Episode II: Attack of the Clones”
dreggas
Ok like Hillary or not like Hillary that was pretty damn funny.
Richard Bottoms
Yes, as a child I did so enjoy seeing black natives with bones in their noses and Stepin Fetchit accents.
Time change and maybe a product named niggerhead won’t sell as well echinacea. Damn sensitive folks made them change the name I guess.
RSA
I sympathize with this view, but I also think about what a comparable choice would be for me. I’ve heard people say about one of my former Senators, “Even if I don’t agree with everything Jesse Helms says, he gets my vote because I know what he stands for.” That’s not enough. I’d vote for a triangulating Democrat (any Democrat, really) in a heartbeat, before I’d even think about voting for even the straightest-shooting Republican (mainly because most of the prominent ones seem to be extremist nutcases; Hagel and his ilk don’t really count–despite their speeches, they’ve always backed down in the end).
Darrell
Like here
dreggas
‘
Oh give me a fucking break, there is a big difference between Speedy Gonzalez and the cartoons you are speaking of which were plain out and out racist. Hell I never even thought of Speedy Gonzalez as anything other than a cartoon character until the whole bullshit PC crap came around unlike the comparison you make.
jenniebee
Gotta love the spin. She lives in Arkansas with a bubba for twenty years and her accent remains remarkably midwestern. She lives in DC for fifteen years after that, and there isn’t a touch of NOVA in her Chicago speech patterns. She gives a speech with the same midwestern accent. Right up until the moment she reads from a quote written in patois she’s still pure midwest. She reads the quote the way it’s written, and suddenly she’s a political chameleon, putting on a phony accent to “connect.” Good Lord.
Richard Bottoms
Yeah, I remember that debate and how cosnervatives were all up in arms. On the other hand when’s the last time anyone used this perfectly serviceable word in polite discourse?
Google the word and surprise, John Derbyshire is the last writer at NRO to have used it… five years ago.
Damn those touchy black folk.
srv
Y’alls problem is really just that she has a vagina. Really. It’s normal for a guy to pander, to say anything, to be ambitious. But for Hillary, it’s an “understatement”. Sheesh. WTF does McCain or Romney have to do before you think they rise to Hillaries politisluthood? Do we actually have to see them swallow? What possible thing could McCain do today to fluff harder?
Hillary may be alot of things, but I don’t see her on her knees right now. The best the John Coles of the Right have to offer is that she is a faux-hawk or centrist. Just like Willy was a faux-centrist. Like it matters whether they’re faking their orgasm or not. What really matters is their policy stances and what they actually do.
gus
If you would rather vote for someone whose political ideas in no way coincide with your own than for someone takes positions similar to yours, there’s something irrational about your dislike. I believe it is because Hillary has cooties.
Richard Bottoms
And what would the difference be to me, if I were Mexican exactly? It’s as lame an argument as Ann Coulter having nothing but love for gays.
How do you people manage to keep such contradictory thoughts in your heads with them exploding?
dreggas
They were way ahead of her in my book and still are. Of course that too could change and she could start playing catch up.
srv
John, name one woman in US politics that you would have ever voted for with the same excitement you voted for Bush in 2000.
Is that a problem with the women, or?
And Margaret Thatcher doesn’t count. We all know you “conservatives” had a hard-on for her.
dreggas
Oh yes your lordship I am now one of “you people” because I happen to disagree with your rather frail comparison. Of course that could be because unlike the cartoons that were made about black people promoting all of the “lazy”, “stupid”, “water melon eating” stereotypes Speedy was just a funny cartoon mouse who not unlike Jerry from Tom and Jerry would always get the best of Sylvester or in some cases Daffy. Nope no difference at all I suppose.
If anything the only thing I would get from a freaking Speedy Gonzalez cartoon is that they liked to party a lot and were always outsmarting their adversaries ala Sylvester and/or Daffy. Not too bad a “stereotype” if you ask me.
dreggas
Oh and like that ever so dirty species stereo-type I would have walked away thinking…all mice like cheese…
Punchy
Maybe Hillary needs to call McCain a f#ggot, so she can get some quality advertising here on Balloon Juice.
John S.
Ya, and Jews are always portrayed as being incredibly greedy and being able to do anything to make a buck, including selling their own mother. Not too bad of a “stereotype”, right? I mean who wouldn’t want to be wealthy and successful?
FYI: A large number of spanish speakers consider Speedy Gonzalez to be offensive, whether you see it or not.
Pb
Exactly what racist stereotype about Mexicans does Speedy Gonzales portray? Now, his brother, Slowpoke Rodriguez, on the other hand…
But really, like books, cartoons are best understood as products of their time–what was at the time a progressive and patriotic parody now looks out-and-out racist, no if’s, and’s, or but’s. Is that what facets of our current culture will look like, 64 years from now? Probably. Will that be a good reason to ban it in the future, much like some schools have banned, say, Huckleberry Finn? Probably not, but that won’t stop some context-insensitive people.
John Cole
Dreggas, the formatting on your comment earlier was so screwed up I just deleted it. Consider it a mercy killing.
Name one woman who has run for anything where I could vote for her. I can’t, so it really is an unfair question.
The only women who have even been mentioned as possible Presidents that I can remember are Schroeder/Schraeder from Colorado (that never got anywhere) and Hillary.
You are right, I have never voted for either nor am I thrielled at the prospect of voting for either, so I guess that means I have a problem with women.
Lemme know when you are done channeling Amanda Marcotte, SRV.
Mike S
A racist too? What about Carol Mosley Braun?
Darrell
Ah yes, only in impolite (racist?) discourse would the word niggardly be used.. Got it.
And I’m sure a principled consistent guy like you was up in arms with your side when they photoshopped Lieberman in blackface, right? No?
Pb
John Cole,
I don’t think that was part of the question–otherwise, it wouldn’t have made any sense for him to have mentioned Margaret Thatcher. Would you consider voting for, say, Jodi Rell, if she ran for President? Condi Rice? Christine Todd Whitman?
dreggas
It was his cousin and yeah I remember all of one cartoon with slowpoke in it, looking back slowpoke may have been the stereotype, I will give that, but overall speedy was funny as hell.
No comparisson to be made, again it’s comparing a stereotype meant to be racist and which was nothing but racist to a cartoon mouse who happened to speak with a spanish (mexican not castillian) accent and use the word Arriba a lot.
So we should then ban anything and everything that anyone or everyone considers offensive…great idea…before long everything will be banned and we’ll wind up with nothing.
It’s also funny how Speedy was on TV back in the late 80’s through the mid 90’s until the PC shit got out of control, to the point where I remember one of the funniest lines of the second Looney toons movie (with Brandon Fraser) being when they are panning through a restaurant and there’s speedy and Porky pig with porky complaining how he could only get work if he “lost his stutter” and Speedy saying effectively “yeah it’s hard to get work in such a PC place”.
Of course they’ll still gladly run Pepe Le Pue because, well, that’s just picking on the french.
It’s really a moot point now, fortunately one can still get all the vintage bugs bunny cartoons over the internet and on DVD but in some cases it’s gone too far. Hell it was the early 90’s when they began phasing out the funniest ones like Elmer Fudd (hunting is bad even), Yosemite Sam (short, red bearded outlaws are bad) and of course Road Runner and Coyote because heaven forbid kids start ordering Acme TNT.
dreggas
Yeah I messed up the blockquotes, my bad.
jaime
I wonder where the FORMER FIRST LADY OF ARKANSAS got her fake accent? Hillary ONLY lived in Arkansas for 17 f%cking year, Darrell.
jg
Some people even want to ban criticism of the president. (Only when he’s a republican of course.)
dreggas
I was being sarcastic. I don’t believe criticism of any public official (or anyone for that matter) should be banned but then again I’m not a republican.
ThymeZone
I agree about Hillary in general, and have said these things in the past.
But I disagree that she is in some special league. Compared to McCain? She is fucking Honest Abe. And you are putting him in some slightly less egregious category for some reason, which I find interesting, bordering on bizarre. I mean, have you really followed the guy?
And what about Gingrich? OMFG, nobody can touch that lying cocksucker for pandering and bloc-ass-kissing.
So what I’m saying is, Hillary is bad, but she is just typical, not special. Her typical badness is magnified by her clout in the race, by her well oiled machine and all her money …. but she is no worse than any of those liars.
IMHO.
Pb
Yeah, well, they’re all rapists anyhow, right?
Darrell
Did you listen to her taped speech halfwit? It was phony as hell.
Despite living in Arkansas (but raised in Illinois), she does not normally speak with such a cornpone accent, so she started adding the Southern twangs and drawl to play to the audience.
It was phony as can be, and speaks to your intellectual dishonesty that you claim it was her normal speech pattern.
John Cole
I really know nothing about Jodi Rell, so I can;t say about her. Condi- no way, now, but I would have four years ago. I always liked Christie Todd Whitman, and prior to 2000 it would have been a solid yed, but now I would need to seriously review her performance in the first Bush administration. Unfair as it may seem, everyone who has been attached to this administration is tainted goods in my eyes.
jaime
How is this different from Bush, who says things like ‘rah-ther’, gittin all country when he’s fixin’ to go a – campaignin’.
jg
Sorry. Didn’t mean you. Speaking in general.
Darrell Swift Boats a potential candidate and attacks someone who would dare to defend her. The right wing political machine in action.
dreggas
again sarcasm…pointing out that they still run Pepe Le Pue but won’t run speedy gonzalez. By the logic that showing cartoons with stereotypes is wrong and Non-PC you’d think you wouldn’t even see a Pepe Le Pue Cartoon.
(and I can’t see youtube from work so I have no idea what that clip was).
jg
Making fun of the french is still allowed. Same with liberals and gays and cavemen.
dreggas
PB,
then ignore my last comment if it wasn’t directed at me but a general one.
I guess for me some of my best memories as a kid were growing up watching the Bugs Bunny Road-Runner show as a kid complete with Speedy and Porky and the entire Looney tunes crew. Even managed to get my hands on a 6 hour vhs tape we had made when we got our first VCR of the saturday morning bugs cartoons I watched growing up. Yet here and now they are pilloried and I am somehow “racist” for thinking that those cartoons, and the Speedy ones in particular were freaking hysterical for the crap he used to do to Daffy and Sylvester.
dreggas
er meant JG…bah
dreggas
not so much with the liberals, gays or french but cavemen are hysterical (and may get their own show soon).
Richard Bottoms
I don’t care whether you are a racist or not.
Time passed many of these cartoons by and things like racist stereotypes, smoking, and sexist behaviour are no longer acceptible. The marketplace has decided, not a muslim hit squad so deal with it.
HyperIon
exactly. and hillary is supplying no more (and no fewer) details that any other D or R candidate. i don’t give a crap about her accent. i want to hear ideas…from them all.
however, i fear that most have no ideas. i hope she does. but until someone lays out a plan (for the war, for the entitlement programs, for health care, etc, etc) i really am not interested in comparing who is triangulating the most.
if the voters are stupid enough to pull the lever for someone who has not put policy plans on the table during the campaign, they deserve another GWB.
i am just back from fla, where the legislature is proposing to eliminate property taxes and substitute a 2% rise in the sales tax. those crazy crackers are always looking for a way to shift the burden onto the tourists. funny thing though, there is no plan for how the funds will be disbursed. all the focus is on the feel good “your property taxes are going away” message. when the very young dem house speaker was asked point blank when the details of how the money would flow back to the counties would be revealed, he said “we hope that these things will be figured out before the voters have to make a decision.” moron.
dreggas
No you just belittle anyone who disagrees with you in any manner. As for it being time passing it’s more like censorship in other forms.
Pb
dreggas,
The link was to a Dave Chappelle clip that talks about Pepe’s questionable actions. And yes, I love just about all the old cartoons too, and at least some of them (like the old WWII Superman cartoons) are still preserved.
Richard Bottoms,
Hell no it didn’t, because there is no free market here either, and past that, the mouse ate the public domain–Happy Birthday(c).
Richard Bottoms
Yeah, yeah. By the way, how come Father Mulcahy wasn’t called Dago Red anymore when MASH moved to television? I thought that was pretty funny.
Damn liberals.
dreggas
Pb,
I had managed to collect a large collection of old bugs bunny cartoons including a lot of the old WWII ones prior to my computer taking a dump thanks to IE 7 and am in the process of getting them back.
Some of them were classics and like I said Wile E Coyote and Roadrunner are my favorites. But one which was absolutely hysterical was “Hillbilly Hair” with the two ozark hillbillies. That had to be ones of the funniest BB cartoons I have ever seen, next to Duck Season, Wabbit Season.
dreggas
because it would never have made it past the afformentioned censors or been allowed on TV because of said censors. This is the same reason why things that are on cable would not be on non-cable TV because the cable channels are not publicly funded and therefore are not subject to FCC regulation with regards to “obscenity”.
dreggas
I would also add it’s why the theme song doesn’t contain the words since the actual title was “Suicide is Painless” and the song was about…committing suicide.
Richard Bottoms
As opposed to a common sense realization that the term Dago was something that would offend Italian-Americans.
The Other Andrew
I’m really, really thankful for Darrell. A person who uses a fake accent is worse than a person who pretends to be a cowboy and acts out the fantasy (or rather, has others act out the fantasy) by invading a country…yes, that’s hilarious.
Keep on driving those conservatives and former conservatives to our side, Darrell. You’re doing great!
Darrell
Richard, are you for censoring such language in movie theatres and HBO too? Because if it’s offensive, it should not be used ANYWHERE at ANYTIME, right? that is precisely what you are arguing.
Richard Bottoms
Meanwhile, back on planet Earth some folks are thinking of casting their votes for a member of the GOP, despite knowing the party has been overrun by bible thumping loons, homophobic assholes, shameless grandstanders (Schiavo), incompetent war fighters (Iraq, Afghanistan) all because they think Hillary, unlike their mommy, is all mean and everything.
Darrell
Sopranos are in a heap of trouble then, huh?
Richard Bottoms
Piss off.
rilkefan
John:
You only think this because you have no familiarity with Kucinich. He was staunchly anti-choice until he announced he was running for President as a staunch pro-choice candidate.
dreggas
Given that it would have offended people at some point or another and resulted in the fines levied against the network for airing it yes. Now had it been on something like HBO as an original series they probably would have gotten away with it (as they did in the movie) because the FCC has little to no control over HBO. Just look at people being up in arms at one point over “The Sopranos” because of “Negative Stereo Types”.
Or take a more recent cartoon that is funny as hell but could only be shown on cable (originally showtime but I believe it is now on LOGO) Queer Duck. It’s funny shit, exploits every gay stereotype (while also taking shots at the idiots like the falwells and disney’s) and is made by a straight guy. Would it ever be on a regular network? Probably not, mainly because of language and some sexually suggestive content but also because it contains “stereotypes” that would cause a backlash (even if it is currently running on the “gay network”) and result in FCC fines.
Pb
That’s actually a good example of something that didn’t offend at the time–when everyone knew what it referred to and the term was in common usage–but probably would, nowadays. See Huckleberry Finn, etc.
Richard Bottoms
So taking into account appropriateness of a certain type of speech does make sense when you are a media company.
And last time I checked there’s no FCC regulation against depicting sleepy Mexican cartoon mice.
ThymeZone
Whoa, have you seen the Ambiguously Gay Duo cartoons on SNL (NBC)?
Short of actually showing man on man sex, it’s about as graphic as it can be.
Pb
It wasn’t nearly so bad as that made it out to be–but you can look that up yourself, check his voting record, etc. He did change his position, but it wasn’t “overnight”. That said, I think he’s got approximately zero chance of ever being elected President anyhow, so the point is moot.
dreggas
Yes I have and it runs late night precisely for that reason (again it’s why mad tv is on late night as well) there is a “window” of time in which they can show stuff they cannot show between 8 am and I believe 10 pm.
Pb
Well, that hasn’t stopped Fox News yet.
Richard Bottoms
Precisely. Teaching Huck Finn with some context for how language is used in the story takes a skilled teach.
I know I was called nigger often enough growing up that I didn’t give a shit about Huck Finn’s problems and would have been less than receptive to the nuance of the story.
To this day whenever Gone with the Wind is on I root for the slaves to burn Tara to the ground. Fuck Miss Scarlett.
dreggas
Inappropriateness dictated by the FCC which controls fining networks who are in it for the money. Look I know where you are going with this and it doesn’t change the fact that the networks self-censor themselves to avoid the wrath of the FCC due to a complaint call generating campaign, something the right is also notorious for but the left has also engaged in.
Speedy was far from sleepy, and again see above. No fines are necessary and no rules necessary when the threat exists of them being imposed, just look at the fallout from the Jannet Jackson “wardrobe malfunction” the end result is that entertainment, at least on the publicly owned airwaves, becomes even more “tame” because of the threat of FCC fines as a result of X number of complaints (not even a majority of the populace) it’s morality dictated by the loudest complainers.
Richard Bottoms
BTW, knowing that the contest for president may come down to a contest between a black man and a white woman is pretty cool. Especially knowing that if either one of them wins the country will be well served.
Pb
George W. Bush has given us white men a bad name. :)
Richard Bottoms
That’s funny, I could have sworn it was liberals who think freaking out about sex IS stupid and that people who are offened by a flash of breast ARE stupid.
BTW, which party was in control when that huge fine was imposed? I think it starts with an ‘R’.
dreggas
And which party was it that made the big stink about the V chip and spearheaded the movment to have the parental rating system implemented?
Give ya a hint one of their stars has a wife named Tipper…
jg
I always thought that the cartoons I loved as a kid were taken off the air because the groups that were made fun of in those cartoons gained more power and status in this country and therfore, it became offensive rather than funny to laugh at them. Another way to look at it I guess would be to examine the rights reaction to the Daily Show. They thought the show was funny when democrat was in the White House. Now its offensive.
dreggas
I agree…but hope it’s Obama who gets the nod.
jg
But that wasn’t for censorship. It was to help parents know what their kids are watching, playing, listening to. Recording, selling, and buying crap are still allowed.
Richard Bottoms
A rating system I have zero problem with, anymore than I do for the one at the movies.
So what.
HyperIon
how would i know that, given that neither has supplied a plan for what to do about iraq, entitlements, deficits, job loss, etc, etc?
however, i agree that either one of them winning would drive another stake into the myth of white and male supremacy, which is a very good thing IMO.
jg
And conservative opposition to warning labels isn’t because they’re anti-censorship, its because they’re anti-regulation. Someone (gov’t) would have to enforce and regulate the warning labels. They don’t regulation but they of course identify with your anger instead and then tell you who is responsible for your anger and away we go…..
dreggas
The difference is the Daily show doesn’t have to look hard for material. They are merely holding a mirror up to reality. What gets me, and i still do not understand, what about speedy gonzales short of a bad accent was so offensive? His outfit? I go down to old town San Diego and watch performances done in the same outfits with the Sombreros, it’s a traditional thing no big deal. Slowpoke, yeah I can see where there is some stereotypes at play there. Heck I can even see the “Mammie” stereotype in the Tom and Jerry cartoons (when I was a kid and still innocent I just figured she was the maid who beat tom with a broom and jumped on stools whenever Jerry came out).
I can also see where someone might get offended over Porky pig and stuttering but at the same time movies are made poking fun at the same type of stuff, as are sketch comedy skits (see Handi-man on “In Living Color”). Irreverent? Absolutely, they found spots that were tender and poked at them, just like people do to “Rednecks” or to people who live in trailer parks or etc. etc. but you don’t see people screaming that something be banned because of it (or you might but not enough to where it does get banned).
I’m guilty of it too in stereotyping republicans (because not all are that bad despite what some might say) so yes I have a splinter in my eye as well. But ask most people what they think when they hear the name “Speedy Gonzalez” and they’ll say a cartoon mouse, ask the same about cartoons such as “little black sambo” and it’s a different response. Why? Because there is a difference, Whereas Speedy had a bad accent the entire point of cartoons in the vein of little black sambo was to oppress another race and keep them down by belittling them.
I guess I am just not PC enough for the so-called “enlightened masses”.
Rusty Shackleford
Jenniebee – well said!
P.S. – Darrell is a twat.
Richard Bottoms
Because, unlike the current president they aren’t incurious inarticulate, stubborn dimwits.
And second, they aren’t Republicans.
But, perhaps I repeat myself.
jill
Are we really going to listen to Cole on picking Presidents?
dreggas
It was imposing censorship disguised as “helping parents”. It was the state saying either you censor yourself or we will do it for you. Of course this goes back to my initial point that parents should have been monitoring their kids anyways and the state should not be involved to the point of threatening legislation forcing them to self-censor.
I guess I was just lucky enough to have two parents who were…gasp…parents and paid attention to me rather than letting me buy whatever game or cassette (back before CDs) I wanted or left the TV to babysit me.
dreggas
So just when do you have a problem with the government using its power to impose by threat or legislation self-censorship or censorship in any form? When it’s done by republicans only?
dreggas
As a caveat, the movie rating system is far worse than the music one. The music companies and musicians got off easy mostly because they fought back. The movie companies rating system is far less forgiving and because the movie companies want to make money (and there are laws regarding R ratings and not letting anyone under 17 in etc. etc) they have to chop movies in order to get them in theaters.
Of course there is also a lot of bias within the Movie rating council with regard to what earns an R rating. For example show a boob or even worse a penis and it is near guaranteed to get an R rating, show a “action star” blowing up people and vehicles etc. and it’s somehow PG-13.
Richard Bottoms
Mostly. Being uptight bible thumping assholes they tend to go overnoard with these things.
Telling me you can’t show naked oracles and wholesale slaughter on the Wonderful World of Disney is fine.
Telling me as an adult I can’t go see it, well you can just kiss my ass.
And yes, 300 is both very gay and homophobic at the same time, but is a fucking cool movie. Already saw it twice.
I suspect conservatives are torn. On one had they want to see this movie as some kind of defense of western values of honor, freedom, and valor.
On the other hand, well there’s fucking.
And blood.
And gore.
The good kind, not the Gloabl Warming kind.
Andrew
What the fuck happened to Don Surber?
Is this the same Don Surber? Did he get robbed by a gay illegal abortionist liberal recently? He’s turned into a homeless man’s retarded love child between Glenn Reynolds and Jeff Goldstein (sans dog fucking, as far as I can see).
jg
It was not censorship. Censorship is when you are no longer allowed to say Fuck the Police. What warning labels do is tell good parents like yours that this record contains lyrics like; Fuck the Police, so your parents can make that decision you think is theirs. Saying its ‘disguised as helping parents’ is the right wing talking point drug they feed you. They’re identifying with your ‘my parents were real parents and didn’t need this shot’ anger and showign you where to direct it, at their opponents.
You are not a bad person for finding those old cartoons funny. They were funny. But just realize that if you weren’t white you might find it offensive that white people see Speedy when they think of hispanic culture.
dreggas
I am hoping to see it soon. Interesting note (and related to the discussion) they had considered being historically accurate in the costuming for the spartans, that is spartan men charged into battle wearing only the red capes they were known to wear, but the movie studio wouldn’t have gone for it because it would have earned an X rating (all fear the penis).
Of course I am eagerly awaiting a winger to go see the movie and start comparing our troops to the spartans because another lovely piece of historical knowledge (they will forget) is that the spartan army was all about the gay sex as a way to reinforce an esprit d’corps and to further strengthen the bonds between their soldiers.
We agree on that, I just have a general disdain for censorship of any kind as it tends to be a sword of Damocles and is generally in opposition to the first ammendment (some caveats being the general common sense rule of not yelling fire in a crowded theater).
Disney has their own issues to work through and I would be willing to support wholesale slaughter of the wonderful world of disney. They are the evil empire.
Richard Bottoms
jg
I don’t really know how to make you understand that non hispanic depictions of hispanics can be offensive to hispanics. It seems like such a clear concept to grasp. It has nothing to do with what you find offensive. Its what the group being depicted thinks that matters, they’re the ones saying they’re offended. Whether they are or not isn’t for anyone else to say.
dreggas
Now see to me it’s still the government saying watch what you say or we’ll do it for you. I would feel the same way, and do, whenever the right wing does it.
Believe me I don’t feel bad for finding those cartoons funny. Of course I don’t recall saying I was white but I suppose it could be inferred from a passionate defense of the cartoons. I can see where people would get offended, I understand that, I see shit and hear shit that offends me all the time but I don’t go screaming my head off about it because as much as it offends me, we live in a supposed free society where we might get offended from time to time. Growing up in a backwoods town and living in a trailer I have knee-jerk reactions to that being mentioned but still think it’s funny when my “life” is lampooned on TV, why? Because I can laugh and while it might make me go ouch it ain’t gonna kill me.
Andrew
I agree. I see it as an extended visual euphemism for the modern Republican party.
dreggas
I get it, I understand the theory in general but I am talking specific with regard to speedy. Like I said in my last post I still get knee-jerk reactions over the stereotypes about people who grew up in small towns or lived in trailers. I guess, again, I just decided to move on and realize it wasn’t worth my time to really get pissed about and I can laugh at it. Hell I even have a t-shirt with a trailer on it and the words “there’s no place like home” yeah it might still sting a little but it’s funny at the same time.
Darrell
Except that it’s simply a lie to assert that Hillary limited that phony southern accent to the reading of the James Cleveland quote, which itself was very weird. Do I exaggerate? Imagine the outcry if Bush quoted Martin Luther King while mimicing King’s accent in the quote in order to understand how truly bizarre her quote was.
No, Hillary took it all the way, not just in Cleveland’s quote. Even in the little snippet I cited with link, you can hear her talking with phony southern drawl over Mayor “Paahlmer”, that “puhlse”, etc., not quoting anyone, just laying it on thick with her faked heavy southern drawl
Richard Bottoms
And that’s the difference. Fifty years ago, they were going to kill me. If the only consequence of racist depiction in cartoons was getting luaghed at you’d have a point.
Well within my lifetime people were hung for whistling at white girls. Much less for sleeping with them, you know like I do with my wife every night.
That humor was a tool to help the people in charge not to see us as human. When the culture changed those old tools had to go too.
Richard Bottoms
Let’s just say some of the costumes wouldn’t be out of place at the San Francisco Gay Pride parade. Matter of fact I expect there will be no shortage of red capes this year.
Darrell
Except that no one can speak for all or most hispanics regarding what they really think. Only blowhard PC nannies speak in their name, and sheep like jg assume that is what most hispanics really think. How can he or anyone else know that with any degree of certainty what impressions Hispanics have over Speedy gonzalez?
And as dreggas pointed out, even if they were offended, should they be able to dictate what is, and is not shown on TV? although that’s a separate issue
It reminds me of when highschool and college football teams were being pressured to change their name from “Chiefs”, “Apaches”, “tribe” etc. because supposedly “most” American Indians were offended.. And then someone actually did a survey of Indians on this issue, most thought their depictions by the football teams were actually flattering.
Darrell
Were there lynchings in the 1950’s? And if there was, say 4 or even 20 in that decade, would that justify the bullshit racial hypberbole Richard23 is spouting with his “they were going to kill me” crap?
Richard Bottoms
Fuck off.
HyperIon
Intercrural intercourse was common in the Ancient Greek system of pederasty, where penetrative sex was considered demeaning to the receiving partner.
which leads to the questions:
1. is it sex? (as in “i did not have sex with that woman”)
and
2. is it gay sex? (as in “it’s not gay if you’re pitching”)
Richard Bottoms
>2. is it gay sex?
Manly Matt Sanchez says no.
Richard Bottoms
>1. is it sex?
Funny, in at least two sex scenes involving a certain female character in the movie, she wasn’t facing in the direction you might expect.
Woof.
Andrew
South South West?
Darrell
There was a scene in the movie where King Leonidus of Sparta told the Persian messenger that Athenians were soft, that they were “all philosophers and young boy f*ckers” or something to that effect.. with the implied message that such such activities weren’t sufficiently macho for Sparta’s militaristic culture.
And didn’t Aristotle write that Spartans, unlike other regions of greece, were LESS likely to engage in homosexual activities? I honestly don’t know, but not sure dreggas does either, as he seems to lump Sparta in with the rest of Greece, when they appear to have been rather distinct.
I would say that this movie leaves liberals far more conflicted than conservatives, as it hits all the hot button liberal whining points: patriotism, nationalism, macho culture, bad-ass military, and of course Leonides’ quip to the Persian messenger
Andrew
Shorter Darrell:
The Other Steve
Darrell does argue in good faith, you gotta give him that one, right?
Richard Bottoms
I like to think of it as Vasiline Intensive Care.
Richard Bottoms
>Darrell does argue in good faith, you gotta give him that >one, right?
Fuck Darrell.
Tulkinghorn
Ancient Sparta was at least as homoerotic as other parts of Greece, but did not insitutionalize man-boy relationships the way the Athenians did. The ruling class of Sparta was made up of somewhat different sub-group of Greeks (what we now call Dorians, IIRC), so the cultural differences went beyond the different political cultures.
The culture war within Greece was intense. My reading of it is that the Spartans were happy to die at Thermopyla not because they cared so much about defeating the Persians as wanting to put the Athenian and Corinthian bastards perpetually in their debt. It was the ultimate authoritarian smackdown of the liberals, at least until the Athenians began to fancy themselves an empire in Sicily.
CaseyL
I haven’t seen 300, though I originally wanted to, since it sounded cool.
But the reviews have changed my mind.
Not only do the Spartans seem to embody the modern Right Wing (homoerotic and homophobic; all the Spartans are white and all the Persians are non-white grotesques; slo-mo adoration of hewing and hacking), but I’ve heard the movie is actually rather bad as a movie. The motion is said to be static when it’s not overstylized and violent, and the dialog is rather odd, with voice-over exposition, slogans and exhortations.
Richard Bottoms
True. But I knew I was going to see some good old ultra-violence, not Amistad. If I had a problem going to action movies where white guys blow away evil brown guys my action choices would be kind of limited.
Let me put it to you this way:
ThymeZone
Thus does Darrell give himself a hard on.
Writing about queers is what makes Darrell have teh wood.
Tulkinghorn
Consider the source. Was Aristotle lauding or criticizing the Spartans by this?
Richard 23
Wow, what a Stalinist. Lighten up, pal.
Richard 23
No kidding. Leftist heads would explode! Actually that might be a good thing….
No doubt that Hillary is a phoney and the pretzels the liberals here contort themselves into to defend her is amusing to say the least.
I think you hit a nerve, Darrell. Well done! :-D
Richard Bottoms
>Wow, what a Stalinist. Lighten up, pal.
I’m not your pal, and you, like Darrell can piss off.
Tulkinghorn
Who is defending her? You criticize her – and at the same time you act like a schmuck. Pointing out what a schmuck you are is not the same thing as defending Hillary.
And Clinton is not a liberal, and is not supported by the liberals in the Democratic Party.
Andrew
Aren’t Spartans just like super-gay boy scouts with shields instead of merit badges?
Darrell’s got some ‘splainin to do.
Tom in Texas
I find it a little difficult to believe that any person at HRC’s speech came away thinking that was her natural speech pattern. It was OBVIOUS that she was speaking out of character, so who cares? Or do you believe that she was really trying to pull one over on everyone? Suddenly on Jan 2009 she comes out speaking like a TV anchor again and everyone is stunned! (I thought she spoke like a Twain character. That’s the only reason I voted for her).
Baby Jane
Hillary gets a bum rap. Except for a few, she’s a man among mice.
And: otherwise well meaning people need to lay off the cartoons. Go fuck with Alberto not Speedy.
I’m a spic. I didn’t learn that on the Bugs Bunny Road Runner Hour.
Richard 23
I missed the cartoon discussion, but you can find some of the early classic Merrie Melodies and Looney Tunes on archive dot org. Apparently some slipped into the public domain.
One of my favorites, I think, is A Gruesome Twosome, an early Tweety cartoon starring Tweety and two cats battling over him. It has plenty of slapstick violence and isn’t the toned down Tweety you saw in later years. Unfortunately I couldn’t find online video of it.
I was able to find “A Tale of Two Kitties,” a classic Robert Clampett cartoon which introduced Tweety to the world back in 1942, on YouTube. Clampett apparently created the character based on one of his baby pictures.
It features Babbit and Catstello, based on Abbott and Costello, obviously. I know, you’re thinking Tweety Bird, so what. If you haven’t seen it. Watch it. It’s a classic!
I also liked the older Darry Duck, when he was a wacko, as opposed to the later version where he was greedy and conniving, the bad guy foil for Bugs Bunny. He lost some of his charm with the personality change.
Richard Bottoms
So, while John again shows why I’ll never trust any Republican who has ever voted for Bush or his cohort, the latest tumult as the Bush presidency comes crashing down is about to hit the fan.
Seems we may need a new Attorney General, several presidential aides, and maybe even a new president pretty soon.
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
And didn’t Plutarch write that when Spartan warriors wanted to fuck their wives on their wedding night, they made them dress like boys and wear boys’ wigs and lay face down in a darkened room, and that after the guy does her he goes off to sleep with his boyfriend as usual?
Yup, looks like he did:
Don’t even get started on the Helots, Darrell. The Spartans didn’t just keep slaves, they periodically slaughter them en masse to keep their numbers in control. What a country!
Well, if conservatives stand for monarchy, slavery and gays in the military, you guys should be all set. Go Sparta!
The Other Steve
That’s certainly not true.
Tulkinghorn
The Greeks don’t glorify the Spartans much in any case, except as a bit of local color. My father-in-law, who is from Lakonia, once gave me a nice little bust of Leonidas and the inscription ‘Μολὼν Λαβέ’, and it sits with the rest of the Hellenic kitsch (Aphrodite, Homer, Hermes) we have been collecting.
Modern Greeks are much more proud of the phrase ‘Οχι’, which beats ‘Nuts’ with an economy of doing with three letters where which McAuliffe used four, and Leonidas used nine. And the young children are introduced to Ancient Sparta by way of a visit to the crevasse in the earth where the Spartans threw their sick children away.
You see, the Greeks are Christians, and they make a systematic effort to make sure their children do not learn the wrong lessons from antiquity.
Tulkinghorn
TOS:
If Clinton is a Liberal she has been doing her damnedest to hide the fact. Go on DailyKos.com and see what actual liberals think of her.
The Other Steve
Yup, and many of them also fall over themselves heaping praise on John Edwards… a candidate who is only slightly more liberal than Jesse Helms.
You should be careful with your criticism of Hillary Clinton. Don’t just repeat what Darrell tells you, but rather investigate and decide on your own. Darrell does not care about your best interests.
yet that’s what many dailyKos posters do when talking about Hillary.
Again, she’s not my favorite. But she’s certainly a Liberal. It’s her position on the war, and her unwillingness to kick AIPAC to the ground, that has soured a lot of people.
Redleg
Darrell is just showing his ass again. Hillary spoke to the audience in her normal way and only used the “southern accent” when she read the poem.
Bush, on the other hand, has never been a phony. He didn’t buy his “ranch” right before the election to evoke memories of good ol’ Ronnie Raygun cutting brush. He didn’t pose as a “compassionate conservative” before the election. He didn’t try to make people think he was a real macho Texan instead of an effete East-Coast WASP. In short, Bush is the most honest, straightforward, authentic president we have ever had.
In a pig’s eye, maybe.
Richard Bottoms
Snap!
Rome Again
Me too, John. That’s why I refuse to vote for her. I don’t think she’s really on my side.
Zifnab
“Yup, and many of them also fall over themselves heaping praise on John Edwards… a candidate who is only slightly more liberal than Jesse Helms.”
Edwards has been pushing a populist pro-union, pro-health care agenda for years. Exactly how is that slightly more liberal than Jesse Helms? I admit, the term “liberal” has morphed in the past 10 years to “anything the Republican Caucas doesn’t like”, but I still fail to see how Edwards is some sort of stealth conservative.
Tulkinghorn
The term “Liberal” needs to be defined anew… I don’t see how a populist Democrat can fail to be a Liberal, although the militarism of Jim Webb may be an example of that.
As for Hillary, she has aggressively positioned herself in the ‘middle’ of American politics, just like her husband did. If you call both Bill Clinton and Paul Wellstone ‘Liberals’ then I am not sure the word has a useful meaning.
Darrell
First, it is a blatent lie to suggest that Hillary spoke in her normal speech pattern except for the quote of Cleveland. I specifically pointed out examples of her laying on thick the southern fried drawl with use of Mayer “Pahlmer” and “puhhlse”. Virtually everyone there commented that she laid on the southern accent throughout the entire speech.
Now with regards to Hillary quoting Cleveland, even that was wildly bizarre how she turned on the weird accent. As I said above, imagine if Bush quoted Martin Luther King and tried to mimic King’s accent, in order to understand the depths of how bizarre Hillary’s phoniness has sunk. It was weird, bizarre, and phony as hell, and was NOT limited just to her quotation.
vwcat
You always get the feeling this woman would sell her soul for ambition. She is not at all authentic in her beliefs. I don’t think she really has any except that she is inevitable. What happens when she finds herself without the nomination in hand and watching Obama on tv taking the oath of office?
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
We must drop every other topic until the matter of Hillary Clinton’s natural speech pattern has been settled! Nothing less than the future of our great Republic is at stake.
demimondian
By 2016, I doubt she’ll be too concerned. But do you really think that he’ll get the nod to be her VP for the next eight years?
Redleg
Darrell,
You say tomato and I say Bush is a loser and so are you idiots for your freaky obsession with the Clintons after all these years. I heard what I heard. I don’t need a person like you with bad judgment to tell me what I heard.
Jacob
Stockdale was a good dude, not just a warhero who spent far too long in a Vietnamese prison camp (actually several Vietnamese prison camps) but also a philosopher and an intellectual. His national stage debocle under Perot was caused by 1) the complete lack of prep and 2) probably a bit of the Alzheimer’s that killed him.
mclaren
You’re not the only one. I wouldn’t vote for Hillary even if you stuck a knife at my throat, and people consider me liberal. Obama smells bad too — lots of vague hand-waving platitudes, no specifics, and a dangerous amount of idealism. Remind you of anyone? Say…JFK? Just before he nearly nuked the world in the Cuban Missile Crisis and cranked up the war in Vietnam?
Where’s an Eisenhower to vote for?