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You are here: Home / Politics / Domestic Politics / Same Shit, Different Decade

Same Shit, Different Decade

by John Cole|  April 3, 20074:44 pm| 90 Comments

This post is in: Domestic Politics, Politics, War, Outrage

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I have long wondered why it is always the smelly dirty hippies who seem to be the most paranoid about government power. The reason is simple- experience:

A secret FBI intelligence unit helped detain a group of war protesters in a downtown Washington parking garage in April 2002 and interrogated some of them on videotape about their political and religious beliefs, newly uncovered documents and interviews show.

For years, law enforcement authorities suggested it never happened. The FBI and D.C. police said they had no records of such an incident. And police told a federal court that no FBI agents were present when officers arrested more than 20 protesters that afternoon for trespassing; police viewed them as suspicious for milling around the parking garage entrance.

But a civil lawsuit, filed by the protesters, recently unearthed D.C. police logs that confirm the FBI’s role in the incident. Lawyers for the demonstrators said the logs, which police say they just found, bolster their allegations of civil rights violations.

The probable cause to arrest the protesters as they retrieved food from their parked van? They were wearing black — a color choice the FBI and police associated with anarchists, according to the police records.

I know my position on anti-war protestors a few years back- they were to be mocked, derided, ignored, out-protested, or countered with “facts” (the facts, in many cases, did not turn out to be on my side, but at least I was arguing from what I thought was an honest position). Nowhere did I even begin to imagine we would arrest people and have them interrogated by secret government units.

But the smelly dirty hippies were expecting it, and once again, this administration has proved them right. Read the whole story- the police just “found” records of this. How convenient.

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Reader Interactions

90Comments

  1. 1.

    jg

    April 3, 2007 at 4:54 pm

    No free love, no kick ass music. This 70’s re-enactment sucks IMO.

  2. 2.

    neil

    April 3, 2007 at 4:58 pm

    Next thing you know, John will be admitting that Bush does kinda look like a chimp.

  3. 3.

    Tom Hilton

    April 3, 2007 at 5:10 pm

    There’s just no way to be cynical enough about these people, is there?

    I mock the 9/11 conspiracy theorists (and I think mockery is fully justified)…but when I read something like this I can’t help wondering if I’ll be eating my words years from now when it all comes to light.

  4. 4.

    Geek, Esq.

    April 3, 2007 at 5:11 pm

    Probable cause is apparently the new black.

  5. 5.

    Jake

    April 3, 2007 at 5:15 pm

    Actually, given the cluster of clumsy clowns that makes up DCPD I find the claims that they just found records plausible. However, that doesn’t let them off their insistence that it never happened. Gee, could you have perhaps asked the officers on duty in that area about the incident? Nope, guess they were all on leave for a really long time.

    I’d like to say this shit surprises this dirty hippy but former PC Ramsey’s antics made the locals ill for quite some time. He also is the jackass who tried to fib his way out of trouble when a bunch of passerbys and spectators at a protest (including a nurses who were attending a conference) got corralled into the paddy wagons. Welcome to DC, you’re going to jail!

    The probable cause to arrest the protesters…They were wearing black—a color choice the FBI and police associated with anarchists

    So that’s why the local Poseur Population has dropped radically. They’re all in jail under suspicion of being anarchists. Depeche Mode fans BEWARE.

  6. 6.

    Andrew

    April 3, 2007 at 5:23 pm

    So that’s why the local Poseur Population has dropped radically. They’re all in jail under suspicion of being anarchists. Depeche Mode fans BEWARE.

    I don’t have a problem with this.

  7. 7.

    jg

    April 3, 2007 at 5:30 pm

    Andrew Says:

    So that’s why the local Poseur Population has dropped radically. They’re all in jail under suspicion of being anarchists. Depeche Mode fans BEWARE.

    I don’t have a problem with this.

    That’s because you don’t have You’re Own Personal Jesus.

  8. 8.

    Jake

    April 3, 2007 at 5:40 pm

    That’s because you don’t have You’re Own Personal Jesus.

    I think it’s just A Question of Time until he does.

  9. 9.

    Tom Hilton

    April 3, 2007 at 5:42 pm

    I think it’s just A Question of Time until he does.

    Oh boy…just can’t get enough of those Depeche Mode jokes.

  10. 10.

    Dreggas

    April 3, 2007 at 5:46 pm

    That’s because you don’t have You’re Own Personal Jesus.

    But what if he becomes a Missionary? Or will that truly prove God has a sick sense of humor?

  11. 11.

    Rome Again

    April 3, 2007 at 5:49 pm

    Or will that truly prove God has a sick sense of humor?

    If you don’t know this already, you certainly haven’t been paying attention.

  12. 12.

    Dreggas

    April 3, 2007 at 5:53 pm

    Rome Again Says:

    Or will that truly prove God has a sick sense of humor?

    If you don’t know this already, you certainly haven’t been paying attention.

    Oh I know it…in fact I do believe Pacino was speaking the ultimate truth in his soliloquy (sp?) in The Devil’s Advocate.

  13. 13.

    Zifnab

    April 3, 2007 at 5:55 pm

    This story had absolutely no mention of Cindy Sheehan and is therefore worthless to me.

  14. 14.

    Chad N. Freude

    April 3, 2007 at 6:04 pm

    Probable cause Black is apparently the new black probable cause.

    I think you meant this.

  15. 15.

    Mike S

    April 3, 2007 at 6:07 pm

    I don’t know which is worse, interrogating about political beliefs or religious ones. Didn’t we defeat the USSR?

  16. 16.

    Rome Again

    April 3, 2007 at 6:13 pm

    Oh I know it…in fact I do believe Pacino was speaking the ultimate truth in his soliloquy (sp?) in The Devil’s Advocate.

    A truly memorable character!

  17. 17.

    Chad N. Freude

    April 3, 2007 at 6:18 pm

    I am not a black-clad hippie protester, and therefore I do not feel at all threatened by the Orwellian Monty Pythonism reported in that article.

    FBI agents dressed in street clothes separated members to question them one by one about protests they attended, whom they had spent time with recently, what political views they espoused and the significance of their tattoos and slogans

    I don’t go to protests, I don’t spend time with anyone, I espouse no political views, I have no tattoos, and I do not wear anything with a slogan. Therefore, I am above suspicion and have nothing to fear from police who “suggest” that something didn’t happen.
    If all you people who dress suspiciously, attend suspicious events, and mill around parking garage entrances would follow my example, nothing like this would happen to disrupt your ideal Stepfordian lives, and the police could go about their regular business of protecting and serving. Not to mention freeing the time of the FBI to demand more records without warrants than they are able to do now.

  18. 18.

    Andrew

    April 3, 2007 at 6:22 pm

    I think you meant this.

    I’m pretty sure that being black has been probable cause for a few hundred years, now.

  19. 19.

    Chad N. Freude

    April 3, 2007 at 6:23 pm

    interrogating about political beliefs or religious ones.

    No comparison here. The so-called questioning of religious beliefs was merely a recital of the Catechism, or perhaps a rehearsal for a seder.

  20. 20.

    Bubblegum Tate

    April 3, 2007 at 7:01 pm

    Didn’t we defeat the USSR?

    No, “we” didn’t. Ronald Jesus Reagan did. Singlehandedly.

  21. 21.

    ConservativelyLiberal

    April 3, 2007 at 7:04 pm

    I am one of those dirty hippies (ok, I lie, I do shower…), in fact my hair is still to my waist (much thinner though, I will admit). I once had my own dance with the FBI and a grand jury back in the early 80’s. Long story, and not really worth relating. But I do have to say that those guys expect people to quake in their boots when they come knocking. I did not quake, nor would I cooperate with them. I had done nothing wrong and I felt it was not my job to have to prove it as the law says that is their job to do.

    One day they showed up at my job. I got called into the office, and the two suits were there waiting for me. I did not skip a heartbeat, I smiled and said hi to them like I saw them every day. They handed me a subpoena, which I told them I expected that they would do. You should have seen the look on their faces, it was priceless! I was not quaking in my boots…lol!

    I went in front of the grand jury, told the truth and that was the end of it. I never heard from them again. Though I had nothing to do with the situation they were investigating, the heavy handed way they tried to work me over before hitting me with the subpoena was something I will never forget. I was guilty (in their eyes) until I proved otherwise.

    Other life experiences have taught me that people who are convicted of a crime are not always guilty. A prosecutor will try a case if they think they can win, and that is the only criteria. Not if they think you are innocent or guilty, that does not enter into the equation. If they think they can convict you, they will go for it.

    My opinion of the justice system in the land of the free has only worsened with age…

  22. 22.

    Jackmormon

    April 3, 2007 at 7:17 pm

    If people wearing black are suspicious, no fucking wonder they arrested half of New York City during the RNC.

  23. 23.

    jake

    April 3, 2007 at 7:53 pm

    Oh boy…just can’t get enough of those Depeche Mode jokes.

    I feel you.

  24. 24.

    jnfr

    April 3, 2007 at 8:01 pm

    Most of the dirty fucking hippies were never as dirty as everyone thinks. Unkempt, yes, but not smelly-dirty.

    I lived in a commune for years, and we had a big communal shower that was used all the time. Plus: skinny-dipping in the creek!

  25. 25.

    mclaren

    April 3, 2007 at 8:44 pm

    Didn’t we defeat the USSR?

    No, we became the USSR.
    Detention in an isolated cell without charges and without trial. No habeas corpus. Torture. Government wiretaps on all phones and email. Government surveillance of all private bank records. Government arrest and interrogation of protesters for exercising free speech. Seizure of private property and private bank accounts by the government without a warrant and without charges. Masked goons breaking down the doors of innocent people in the middle of the night and shooting them to death without charges and without trial. Government propaganda on all radio channels and TV networks and newspapers. Official lies to support wars of aggression. History constantly rewritten.
    Welcome to the new Soviet Union.
    “He who fights too long against dragons, becomes a dragon himself.” — Friedrich Nietzsche
    “

  26. 26.

    canuckistani

    April 3, 2007 at 9:03 pm

    I never really cared for hippies as I was growing up, not sharing their naive idealism, but I will give them their props – they really managed to push the buttons of the authoritarian right wing. Even today, 40 years past the heyday of the hippie, six out of seven right wing blogs rant about the smelly, peace-loving hippies.

    My personal suspicion is the that the hard right wingnuts hate hippies far more than terrorists, and always will. It’s like the rejection of authority is just too much for their fearful souls to handle.

  27. 27.

    Rome Again

    April 3, 2007 at 9:09 pm

    I never really cared for hippies as I was growing up, not sharing their naive idealism, but I will give them their props – they really managed to push the buttons of the authoritarian right wing. Even today, 40 years past the heyday of the hippie, six out of seven right wing blogs rant about the smelly, peace-loving hippies.

    Hippies are a gift from God, nobody knows it. They’re about peace, and love and all the things that really matter.

  28. 28.

    Rome Again

    April 3, 2007 at 9:12 pm

    No, we became the USSR.
    Detention in an isolated cell without charges and without trial. No habeas corpus. Torture. Government wiretaps on all phones and email. Government surveillance of all private bank records. Government arrest and interrogation of protesters for exercising free speech. Seizure of private property and private bank accounts by the government without a warrant and without charges. Masked goons breaking down the doors of innocent people in the middle of the night and shooting them to death without charges and without trial. Government propaganda on all radio channels and TV networks and newspapers. Official lies to support wars of aggression. History constantly rewritten.
    Welcome to the new Soviet Union.
    “He who fights too long against dragons, becomes a dragon himself.”—Friedrich Nietzsche

    POTFD! Awesome mclaren, a wonder to behold!

  29. 29.

    ThymeZone

    April 3, 2007 at 9:15 pm

    Make love, not war.

    I just made that up.

  30. 30.

    Rome Again

    April 3, 2007 at 9:17 pm

    No, you didn’t, but I appreciate the sentiment.

  31. 31.

    Andrew

    April 3, 2007 at 9:18 pm

    Make love, not war.

    I just made that up.

    gay, imo.

  32. 32.

    ThymeZone

    April 3, 2007 at 9:19 pm

    gay, imo.

    Can you send me a picture?

  33. 33.

    Rome Again

    April 3, 2007 at 9:20 pm

    gay, imo.

    Really? God doesn’t think so. Where is WAR in the ten commandments?

    “Thou shalt NOT kill”

  34. 34.

    DougJ

    April 3, 2007 at 10:06 pm

    I use to mock anti-war protesters too, if it’s any consolation, John. How could I have been so stupid?

    I can only thank God that I have lot touch with all the Noam Chomsky-reading “extreme” left-wing types that I used to laugh at but now realize were 100% right about everything. (Everything except voting for Nader in 2000, in fairness to myself.)

  35. 35.

    Punchy

    April 3, 2007 at 10:17 pm

    Sort of OT, but not really. Not when you consider how Stalin-esque this is.

    Tim (and others)…did y’all see this? How….what in the…wha??

    Seriously, is this possible?

  36. 36.

    Fwiffo

    April 3, 2007 at 11:05 pm

    Jeeze dude. That sliver of daylight between John Cole and Atrios is closing at an ever more frightening pace.

  37. 37.

    Randolph Fritz

    April 3, 2007 at 11:06 pm

    “I hate the way this administration makes me feel like a nutbar conspiracy theorist.”

  38. 38.

    Pb

    April 3, 2007 at 11:33 pm

    I’d just like to mention that Hunter from Daily Kos is a freaking genius–I mean, this just might be simple enough for some in the mainstream media to understand. Probably not over at the NRO, though.

  39. 39.

    canuckistani

    April 3, 2007 at 11:53 pm

    Hippies are a gift from God, nobody knows it. They’re about peace, and love and all the things that really matter.

    If Elvis Costello is for Peace, Love and Understanding, then so am I. But I’m put off by mysticism, drugs and dropping out of society. We can still be allies, though, right?

  40. 40.

    Andrew

    April 3, 2007 at 11:54 pm

    Can you send me a picture?

    Are you Mark Foley? Ewwwwww.

  41. 41.

    Chuck Butcher

    April 4, 2007 at 1:00 am

    “Nowhere did I even begin to imagine we would arrest people and have them interrogated by secret government units.”

    In my senior year in HS I did a project on HUAC from the 50’s, I read the entire thing, then I read some of the books & articles written by some of the “witnesses.” I did my research at Antioch College in Yellow Springs, OH; since they had the entire hearings. I was rather anti-establishment prior to that, the facts left a very bad taste in my mouth and a total lack of faith in government – which is different than a willingness to participate and help improve. John, this quote from your post says maybe you need to go look at something where the facts exist and the players are known – McCarthy, RMN, et al and their shills are known as well – R Reagan, WaPo, Time, etc. BushCo is absolutely no surprise to me. But then, I was a hippy, also…

    I rant repeatedly about the Constitution and BOR and D of I because I have no FAITH in govt, no more so than the Framers did, I do believe a limited govt can be had, but that means we must jealously guard our perogatives, to the point of bleeding for them. These little pricks act like this because they think they can, they need re-educated.

    Sorry I can’t think of something funny to say

  42. 42.

    ConservativelyLiberal

    April 4, 2007 at 1:05 am

    canuckistani Says:

    If Elvis Costello is for Peace, Love and Understanding, then so am I. But I’m put off by mysticism, drugs and dropping out of society. We can still be allies, though, right?

    Well, IMO Elvis Costello is eh, Led Zep, Stones, Aerosmith, Black Sabbath, Jethro Tull, Bob Dylan… Now those are ones I can sink my teeth into. The only mysticism I ever think about is based on figuring out how our government functions. I have tried just about every drug under the sun, never got addicted to any of them but I do admit to a soft spot for the stinky green to this very day. I never dropped out of society, but I never felt I was in any hurry to get anywhere.

    Somehow it all worked out for me, despite my brush with the law one time over a little detail regarding the cultivation of said stinky green. I survived without playing their game, or giving in and saying that drugs made me do it. I stood my ground, and they just fed me into the system and I emerged intact, never having given an inch. No rehab either, as the drug counselor determined I was ‘nominally addicted, and not amenable to drug counseling/treatment’. They declined to help me quit smoking cigarettes too…lol

    I have one marriage of over twenty years, two great kids from it, a good job and furthering my education to this very day. I am in a community college now, studying computer sciences and maintaining a 3.88 GPA, Phi Theta Kappa, Dean’s List and the President’s List so far. Not bad for an old stoner. You may not be able to teach an old dog new tricks, but a pot smoking hippy sure has no problem…lol!

    On war, the less the better. If it is a valid response to an attack, it is fully justified and I would have no problem with supporting it Afghanistan is a perfect example. Iraq is not. I have never spit on a soldier, nor would I ever want to. I have only the highest regard for those who are willing to sacrifice their lives to protect our nation and its citizens. I am a war buff myself, and I am a gun lover. The bigger the better, and the only good gun control is a steady hand.

    Yet I am shunned by hardcore conservatives as too left, and I am too far right for the extreme liberals. Thus my name here. I love my country and I am sick of seeing it being sacrificed to free trade, rape at the oil pumps, Enron type schemes and crooked politicians, just to name a few things. Finding an online ‘home’ to discuss politics and life is difficult for me. I am a member of two blogs, Daily Kos and here. DK is fine, but there are too many extreme lefties over there for me to want to participate much. I have been troll rated a few times now, and I have to laugh as I would not survive one day at Redneck State. At least Kos puts up with me (so far)…

    But I like this place here, and I post here the most. Both sides like to speak up, there is great snark/spoofing and it is just a good place to read up on the latest outrages from both sides. Now that is fair…

  43. 43.

    Rome Again

    April 4, 2007 at 1:51 am

    I have one marriage of over twenty years, two great kids from it, a good job and furthering my education to this very day. I am in a community college now, studying computer sciences and maintaining a 3.88 GPA, Phi Theta Kappa, Dean’s List

    Ten years ago, I was in a community college, Phi Theta Kappa, Dean’s List. Almost everything you wrote there could be attibuted to me with the exception of the 20 year marriage and the brush with the law. I never went “into the system” so to speak.

    By the way, Stinky Green is another gift from God.

  44. 44.

    ConservativelyLiberal

    April 4, 2007 at 4:53 am

    Ten years ago, I was in a community college, Phi Theta Kappa, Dean’s List. Almost everything you wrote there could be attibuted to me with the exception of the 20 year marriage and the brush with the law. I never went “into the system” so to speak.

    By the way, Stinky Green is another gift from God.

    What I find funny is most every real hippy I know is an intelligent person who you can engage in deep and intellectually satisifying conversation. They really care about people, and gladly take time out of their lives to help others when they need it. I think we have been unfairly disparged over the years as a convenient target. Opposition to the Vietnam war did not originate with the hippies, but rather those who did not want to go to war and hung out with (or became) hippies as they were the only people who could relate to them and their plight. The rest of ‘straight’ American hated these draft dodgers.

    In all my time in coffee shops, parks, parties and at various protests, I never heard hippies calling soldiers ‘murderers’ or looking for a soldier to spit on. That does not say that it did not happen, it may have. But the people I met, listened and talked to sure were not the ones who were doing it. I think the non-hippy war protesters and hippies were conveniently lumped into one group to keep things simple for simple minds. They were all ‘the enemy’ to straight America. The hippies protested against our government, not our troops. That is what I remember. The arguments against the protests were the same (demoralizing the troops and so on), but we saw it as the only way to get our point across to the government.

    The Gulf of Tonkin incident was manufactured, and we knew it back then. There was no ‘Pearl Harbor’ moment for that war, nothing to rally around. It was a political war, nothing else. 9-11 was the Pearl Harbor that led us to Afghanistan, and it was abused to justify invading Iraq. If anything, our men and women in Afghanistan have been shortchanged by the invasion of Iraq. It has almost become the forgotten war. Osama Bin Who?

    Another humorous thought came to mind. I remember one lady talking about the ‘godless commies and hippies’, like they were one and the same, yet I seem to remember the numerous ‘Jesus Freaks’ among the hippies…lol! While there was the odd political freak among the hippies, by a large margin hippies love America just fine.

    One time, an old lady tried to pretend I was a girl and tease me for having long hair. It was not very friendly teasing, her point being that I was not a man with long hair. I pointed out that Jesus has almost always been depicted with long hair and that I have never heard anyone question his manhood. That shut her up fast… ;)

    I call my pony tail my ‘asshole detector’. It has served me well over the years, but it does not get much of a rise any more, not like it used to.

    Most hippies were the children of WWII and Korean War vets (I am), and our fathers did not want us to go through what they did. I know, my father served honorably in the USAF in Korea, and he told us that unless we are attacked directly, he would not want us to go to war. He never talks about his time in Korea, and we have learned not to ask him about it. Over the years he has given us glimpses of it, and what he related was not pretty.

    He is a conservative, voted Reagan/Bush/Bush II, and he regrets his vote for Bush II. He feels his party may be gone forever, and he is a true old school conservative. We have never agreed politically, but we have always respected each other. A few years ago he blew my mind when he admitted that what I had been saying about Bush was correct, man was that a sad day for him. He was proud of his party, but no more. The fire has gone out of our political discussions, he is just not as interested anymore.

    Regarding the green, Man made booze, God made weed. Who do you trust? ;)

    Geez can I ramble on… I guess that is what happens as your mind is filled with stuff over the years that you like to relate to others.

    Glad to meet another Phi Theta Kappa though, you are the first one outside of my school. This term I have C++, Unix/Linux, Computer Info Science and Computer Science II (15 credit load), and this term is going to be a mother. Just started this week.

    Well, back to life… :)

    BTW, my real name is Doug, just for reference. And I have no spoof characters, though I have been tempted to try it some day. I would probably let people know it was me though…lol

  45. 45.

    Andrew

    April 4, 2007 at 8:46 am

    Jesus, it’s like Al Maviva turned into Willie Nelson.

  46. 46.

    The Sanity Inspector

    April 4, 2007 at 9:12 am

    The propaganda usefulness of the hostages being exhausted, Iran announced that they will free the British Marines. The honest brokers of the Left, floating above the current conflict on their higher moral plane, will doubtless trumpet the ever-building “pressure” on Bush to free more terrorists from Gitmo.

  47. 47.

    Pb

    April 4, 2007 at 9:20 am

    I pointed out that Jesus has almost always been depicted with long hair and that I have never heard anyone question his manhood. That shut her up fast… ;)

    How soon they forget–in fact, Jesus was the original ‘dirty hippie’. He was known then and now for opposing the establishment and for preaching a message of peace and love, and was branded a heretic for it. And then the establishment spied on him, and had him arrested, tortured, and ultimately executed.

  48. 48.

    Pb

    April 4, 2007 at 9:26 am

    The honest brokers of the Left, floating above the current conflict on their higher moral plane, will doubtless trumpet the ever-building “pressure” on Bush to free more terrorists from Gitmo.

    Because, much like Jesus, everyone at Gitmo is presumed guilty and should be tortured and executed. In fact, if Jesus had returned already, I suppose there’s a chance he could have wandered into the wrong part of the Middle East, been captured, sold to the Americans as an alleged ‘terrorist’ of some sort, stuck in Gitmo, and be tortured as we speak. And you’d want to kill him too–nice job.

  49. 49.

    Krista

    April 4, 2007 at 9:30 am

    Jesus, it’s like Al Maviva turned into Willie Nelson.

    Be nice, Andrew. This guy is much more interesting than Al Maviva.

  50. 50.

    Tim F.

    April 4, 2007 at 9:35 am

    I can only thank God that I have lot touch with all the Noam Chomsky-reading “extreme” left-wing types that I used to laugh at but now realize were 100% right about everything.

    No, they’re still nimrod prema-Freshmen ideologues. It’s a stopped clock thing. If you don’t believe me, try this simple thought experiment – what do you think they would say about president Gore?

  51. 51.

    demimondian

    April 4, 2007 at 10:02 am

    “Thou shalt NOT kill”

    Actually, Rome, the original Hebrew is poorly translated in the King James version. The actual verb is, indeed, kill, but it’s used in the intensive form, which means “murder”. Death in battle is not covered by that form of the verb.

  52. 52.

    coomaraswamee

    April 4, 2007 at 10:07 am

    Ouch, Ahmadinejad 1, Bush 0…if we can even give Bush the zero.
    Releasing the British prisoners has really framed an already a horrible situation.

    Cheney etc…..may be….war………criminals?

  53. 53.

    Pb

    April 4, 2007 at 10:20 am

    Actually, Rome, the original Hebrew is poorly translated in the King James version.

    Heresy! The King James Bible is the One True Bible, in the original English, just as Jesus spoke it!

    But seriously, I’m always intrigued when certain people quibble on such points–that is, when those self-same people don’t seem to be inclined to quibble on quite a few other points that crop up in the KJV.

    Also, check out this analysis–whoever wrote that was a real piece of work:

    According to the Bible, God killed every human except Noah, his wife, his sons, and their wives in the flood. Were any of these people killed unjustly? The Bible says specifically that all people (except Noah and his family) had become corrupted.11 Not only had all people become corrupted, but they were continually plotting evil!12 Is it possible that an entire culture can become corrupted? You bet! Recent history proves the point rather well. When the Nazis took over Germany before WWII, opposition was crushed and removed. When they began their purging of the undesirables (e.g., the Jews), virtually the entire society went along with the plan. Further examples are given on another page. So, the Bible indicates that no innocent people were killed in the flood.

    So the Bible says that everyone on Earth except for one guy’s family was corrupt to the point that killing them all would be justified–and you believed it? And to back this up, you’re arguing that basically all of Germany was just as corrupt (and therefore could justifiably been killed as well?)? Give me a break.

    What about when God ordered Joshua and his people to kill every man, woman and child in Canaan?13 What crime could be so great that entire populations of cities were designated for destruction? God told Moses that the nations that the Hebrew were replacing were wicked.14 How “wicked” were these people? The text tells us that they were burning their own sons and daughters in sacrifices to their gods.15 So we see that these people were not really innocent. For these reasons (and others16), God ordered the destruction of the peoples whom the Israelites dispossessed.

    Oh, well. Carry on then, kill their society too! And while you’re at it, see what you can do about all those religious people who burned “witches”. I can’t quite remember what their religion was, but I’m sure it’ll come to me…

    What about the children and other “innocents”
    Surely God could have spared the children! People tend to assume that children are innocent, even if their parents are doing bad things. The assumption is unfounded. For example, Palestinian Muslim children are officially taught in grammar school to hate their Jewish neighbors.17 They are so well indoctrinated that some of them give up their lives in suicide bombings as children.18 Corruption literally does breed corruption, which is why God did not want the Hebrews tainted by the other corrupt cultures of the Middle East.

    And kill all the children, especially the brown ones! What’s this about “corrupt cultures” again?

  54. 54.

    jerry

    April 4, 2007 at 10:48 am

    You mean “Your Own Personal Jesus”, right?

  55. 55.

    Rome Again

    April 4, 2007 at 11:28 am

    Actually, Rome, the original Hebrew is poorly translated in the King James version. The actual verb is, indeed, kill, but it’s used in the intensive form, which means “murder”. Death in battle is not covered by that form of the verb.

    I think the problem with people’s belief in God is that they try to analyze it too much and not take it at face value.

  56. 56.

    Don

    April 4, 2007 at 11:29 am

    Hippies are a gift from God, nobody knows it. They’re about peace, and love and all the things that really matter.

    Maybe, but I’d reject a universal cure for cancer if it came covered in the stink of patchouli.

  57. 57.

    Nate

    April 4, 2007 at 11:30 am

    The probable cause to arrest the protesters as they retrieved food from their parked van? They were wearing black—a color choice the FBI and police associated with anarchists, according to the police records.

    Doesn’t Ann Coulter wear black all the time?

  58. 58.

    Rome Again

    April 4, 2007 at 11:30 am

    ut seriously, I’m always intrigued when certain people quibble on such points—that is, when those self-same people don’t seem to be inclined to quibble on quite a few other points that crop up in the KJV.

    Actually, just because I don’t believe we were meant to kill each other according to the ten commandments doesn’t mean I buy even 4/10’s of what’s in the Bible, I don’t.

  59. 59.

    Pb

    April 4, 2007 at 11:43 am

    Rome Again,

    Actually, just because I don’t believe

    You’re so vain, you probably thought that post was about you.

  60. 60.

    Rome Again

    April 4, 2007 at 12:02 pm

    You’re so vain, you probably thought that post was about you.

    Yeah, that’s probably because I was quoted.

  61. 61.

    Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop

    April 4, 2007 at 12:13 pm

    Fooled by Drudge? Maybe. Maybe not, according to an AFP account.

    Fooled by the Washington Post? Heh. Every time.

    Let’s see how far the Post will go to make you feel sympathy for the protesters and outrage at the FBI. Fast and loose with the facts? Noooooo, not the WaPo! What are they, Drudge?

    A secret FBI intelligence unit

    Most reporters would call them “plain-clothes,” but “secret” sounds much more sinister, if less accurate (but what’s really important here, anyway?). Can’t wait for the next WaPo report of “secret police” taking down a drug deal.

    helped detain a group of war protesters…

    Oh, really — war protesters? What war would that be? Why so vague? Are newspapers these days in the business of being as vague and non-specific as they can be? Hmmm, that seems odd. Oh, wait, they clarify later:

    The Washington case centers on activities that took place April 20, 2002 — a day of three cacophonic but generally orderly rallies that drew an estimated 75,000 people to the Mall. They included groups demonstrating against the prospect of war in Iraq, numerous supporters of the war, and Palestinians and others rallying for an end to U.S. aid to Israel and for peace in the Middle East.

    Oh, so the Post is telling us they were anti-Iraq-war protesters. Ahhh. So these kids (who were only speaking Truth To Power about Iraq) were hassled by the BusHitler killbots who were/are desperate to squash dissent of their illegal war for oil/empire in Iraq! Well… OK, the timing seems odd, since this rally was in April 2002 (but there was a “RUSH TO WAR!!!”), but the Post is clearly suggesting that these poor, abused, black-clad (but not anarchists — they just all coincidentally chose to wear anarchist gear that day) “war protesters” were there to protest Iraq, whichtheprotesterswererightaboutallalongandBushwaswrong!

    That would certainly be a more sympathetic and sensational story than this one:

    “In the wake of the riots at the 1999 WTO Conference in Seattle, local police in the most heavily-Democratic city in America received FBI assistance in arresting for unlawful entry over 20 anti-globalization protesters in anarchist garb who were gathering in a parking garage and carrying a building passkey of unknown origin. The protesters were released later that day for lack of evidence.”

    Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn.

    Huh? Wha-whazzat, I’m awake! Oh, yeah, the Post was much more sensational, more sympathetic to The Truth Kids, more anti-cop, and most importantly, more anti-fascist-Bushbot-FBI, who “helped” the D.C. cops!

    Oh, the Post had written about the cause for the “anti-war” rally earlier:

    The four-day campaign will feature a diversity of dissent, including anti-globalization activists protesting the spring meetings of the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, college students condemning the war in Afghanistan, Palestinian rights demonstrators rallying against U.S. aid to Israel, and others calling for an end to injustice in Colombia.

    College students condemning the war… in Afghanistan? B-b-b-b-b-but the leftists were FOR the war against the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, right, because they attacked us first? Anyway… I’m sure they just left out the anti-Iraq part by mistake.

    Let’s see what CNN said about the rally:

    The nation’s capital is bracing for a weekend onslaught of tens of thousands of activists planning to rally for causes ranging from Palestinian solidarity to economic justice to the U.S.-led war on terrorism.

    Iraq? We know they’re Arafat-worshipers, but…Iraq?

    At least four major rallies are scheduled…

    The Mobilization for Global Justice-led rallies will pressure the World Bank to open up its meetings about loans to developing countries…

    Gotcha, hate the Jew money-men who control the world…Iraq?

    Speakers at a Palestinian solidarity march are expected to call an end to U.S. aid to Israel and an end to the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories.

    Yeah we know, Jew-haters…Iraq?

    International ANSWER, which stands for Act Now to Stop War and End Racism, will hold a demonstration against what it calls President Bush’s “phony war on terrorism.”

    Yeahyeahyeah, hate Jews, end racism (head explodes)…don’t fight terrorists…Iraq?

    There will also be a “Patriots Rally for America,” aimed to show support for U.S. troops.

    Curious: Why no scare/sarcasm-quotes around “anti-globalist” or even “Mobilization For Global Justice,” but scare/sarcasm-quotes for “Patriots Rally for America?” This is a dead give-away… propaganda-textbook stuff.

    Anyway, notice a country conspicuous by its absence in the big laundry list of things being protested?

    So why would the Washington Post go so far out of its way to assert without evidence that these black-clad arrested protesters were there to protest Iraq, when the protesters said it was an anti-Isreal rally, primarily, but also a rally against the War on Terror and Afghanistan and World Bank policy?

    But there were definitely no anarchists there… just ask Anarchist Resistance.

    Do you feel manipulated yet? Of course, you don’t. Suckers.

    And what a fascist government we live under, where 20 anarchists get arrested and released in a parking garage while 75,000 other dirty smelly anarchist Jew-hating hippie-wannabes are allowed to rally against capitalism, Bush, Israel, fighting terrorism, the World Bank, injustice in Colombia [oh, yeah, but MOSTLY IRAQ! — WaPo] to their hearts’ content a few blocks away.

    FREE THE WASHINGTON TWENTY — oh, wait, they were freed later that day? Well, FREE MUMIA, THEN!

  62. 62.

    ThymeZone

    April 4, 2007 at 12:14 pm

    Jesus, it’s like Al Maviva turned into Willie Nelson.

    Al Maviva is Willie Nelson, right?

    And where’s my picture?

    { sound of Al Maviva’s “On the Road Again” }

  63. 63.

    Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop

    April 4, 2007 at 12:14 pm

    No idea why the strikethrough appeared there.

  64. 64.

    Pb

    April 4, 2007 at 12:16 pm

    Yeah, that’s probably because I was quoted.

    Not even. I quoted Demi mentioning your name, but that was about it. Now it just so happens that when I made my reference to ‘certain people’, I wasn’t thinking of Demi either, so go figure.

  65. 65.

    Rome Again

    April 4, 2007 at 12:20 pm

    Not even. I quoted Demi mentioning your name, but that was about it. Now it just so happens that when I made my reference to ‘certain people’, I wasn’t thinking of Demi either, so go figure.

    Gosh Pb, I’m sorry, I see my name, I think it’s about me, go figure!

  66. 66.

    Rome Again

    April 4, 2007 at 12:22 pm

    Okay, so I was “subquoted”. LMAO

  67. 67.

    Rome Again

    April 4, 2007 at 12:26 pm

    Doesn’t Ann Coulter wear black all the time?

    Wearing black is not important. I wear black a lot too, but I wear it because it’s classy and it makes me look skinnier. As far as Ann Coulter wearing black, it’s a fashion faux pas on her part, she’s already too skinny, she doesn’t need to look skinnier.

  68. 68.

    scarshapedstar

    April 4, 2007 at 12:58 pm

    And you know what? This is just the tip of the iceberg. And for six long years we have had to listen to your erstwhile comrades tell us that “well, there’s no records of summary arrests and torture, so all your concerns are wrong and/or treasonous!”

    I wish there was a sufficient punishment I could suggest for these people that wouldn’t violate my principles.

  69. 69.

    Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop

    April 4, 2007 at 1:13 pm

    But anti-Bush protesters are the peaceful conscience of this great nation!

    Oh, no, wait — they’re being told by HuffPo commenters that throwing things at cars isn’t violent enough.

  70. 70.

    Rome Again

    April 4, 2007 at 1:18 pm

    But anti-Bush protesters are the peaceful conscience of this great nation!

    Yeah, well, after watching that this country go so far down the tubes for so long, your lambchop is beginning to look like a tasty dinner too (I wonder, without the lambchop, are you any less annoying?).

  71. 71.

    Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop

    April 4, 2007 at 1:38 pm

    Yeah, well, after watching that this country go so far down the tubes for so long, your lambchop is beginning to look like a tasty dinner too

    Yeah, cry me a river — you lefties hate being out of power, so you feel justified in promoting violence against your political enemies, and you feel justified in lauding a biased press (as long as it’s biased in your direction) that propagandizes with fake stories like the one in this abortion of a post.

    You must really identify with the Shiite death squads in Iraq. Out of power for awhile, now having some political control, promoting revenge killings… they’re actually doing the thing that your cowardly Fellow Travelers are anonymously suggesting on the internet! You must think they are so very brave.

    “B-b-b-b-b-but the Republicans made us this way!” It’s the cop-out of a six-year-old. You are what you’ve always been. Man up and pretend to have a pair.

  72. 72.

    Don

    April 4, 2007 at 1:53 pm

    Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop Says:

    No idea why the strikethrough appeared there.

    Don’t worry, it didn’t impact how coherent you were.

  73. 73.

    Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop

    April 4, 2007 at 2:46 pm

    Don’t worry, it didn’t impact how coherent you were.

    Yes, ’twas but a blemish on the Mona Lisa.

  74. 74.

    Pb

    April 4, 2007 at 3:19 pm

    you lefties

    Ah yes, smear one group based on the (unknown yet presumed) affiliations of another group. This farce-based reasoning is how black-flag anarchists morph into ‘lefties’ or ‘progressives’, or ‘unknown objects’ turn into ‘rocks’. You can’t handle the truth, so you just ignore it, and repeat your own internalized lies.

    You must really identify with the Shiite death squads in Iraq.

    Which ones–the ones your party insists on training? The ones run out of the Interior Ministry? You’re the one supporting those death squads, asshole–your party is the very reason they exist right now.

    “B-b-b-b-b-but the Republicans made us this way!”

    If you’re talking about the chaos in Iraq, I agree. You broke it, you own it, you will ultimately be in part responsible for the hundreds of thousands or millions of lives lost, and the hundreds of billions or trillions of dollars squandered. Now man up and fess up to it, weasel.

  75. 75.

    Rome Again

    April 4, 2007 at 3:45 pm

    Yeah, cry me a river—you lefties hate being out of power

    We’re not out of power, if you look at the Constitution, Congress has the right to oversight of the executive branch, which means YOU are righties are the ones who are truly out of power, and you’re running out of gas, and your train is beginning to slow, finally… before you REALLY did some horrific damage.

  76. 76.

    Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop

    April 4, 2007 at 3:54 pm

    Ah yes, smear one group based on the (unknown yet presumed) affiliations of another group. This farce-based reasoning is how black-flag anarchists morph into ‘lefties’ or ‘progressives’,

    You’re right — who am I to assume that the ultraviolent (on the internet) HuffPo and WaPo readers that Rome is covering for are lefties, just because they advocate violence against righties because of the policies of the right? They could be, ummmmmmm, Whigs! Or Communists! Or disaffected Conservatives! That’s the ticket! Yes, I should leave such baseless generalizing to my intellectual inferiors, like The One Man Gang, Glenn Greenwald.

    You’re the one supporting those death squads, asshole

    At least I put my money where my mouth is, unlike the HuffPuffers.

    Come to think of it, where’s my checkbook? I must remember to write “Death Squad Training” in the memo space this time, so I don’t get it confused with my other checks to Shiite groups. [Cuckoo! Cuckoo!]

    You broke it, you own it, you will ultimately be in part responsible for the hundreds of thousands or millions of lives lost,

    Not as responsible as the people who do the killing in Iraq, or as responsible as those who vote to remove the US troops… and I don’t remember voting for the AUMF, but I suppose I could’ve done.

    Still, I’ll sleep soundly at night knowing that if I had my way, Iraqis would be free and living in peace and democracy, whereas if you had your way, they’d be living under Saddam and Sons’ brutal heels, or at best, they’d be abandoned to the post-retreat bloodbath that you advocate. Yep, the sleep of the just.

    Just for demented irony, you should then post: “Hillary in 2008!”

  77. 77.

    Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop

    April 4, 2007 at 3:56 pm

    We’re not out of power, if you look at the Constitution, Congress has the right to oversight of the executive branch, which means YOU are righties are the ones who are truly out of power

    Surely, you remember the Gingrich-Dole Economic Boom of 1994-2000! Heh.

  78. 78.

    Rome Again

    April 4, 2007 at 4:10 pm

    Surely, you remember the Gingrich-Dole Economic Boom of 1994-2000! Heh.

    No, not actually, I remember “Read my lips, NO NEW TAXES” – remember that lie, EEEL?

  79. 79.

    Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop

    April 4, 2007 at 4:14 pm

    More mistreatment of protesters, this time the enviro-lefties of San Francisco:

    Susan Ferrando, her husband, their two children and three preteens had come to San Francisco from Redwood City to celebrate the birthday of Ferrando’s 11-year-old daughter. They went to Japantown, where they enjoyed shopping and taking in the blooming cherry blossoms…

    Suddenly, Ferrando said, her car was surrounded by hundreds of cyclists…

    Confusion, however, quickly turned to terror, she said, when the swarming cyclists began wildly circling around and then running into the sides of her Toyota van.

    Filled with panic, Ferrando said, she started inching forward until coming to a stop at Post and Gough streets, where she was surrounded by bikers on all sides.

    A biker in front blocked her as another biker began pounding on the windshield. Another was pounding on her window. Another pounded the other side.

    “It seemed like they were using their bikes as weapons,” Ferrando said. One of the bikers then threw his bike — shattering the rear window and terrifying the young girls inside.

    All the while, Ferrando was screaming, “There are children in this car! There are children in this car!”

    The Washington Post reports that the bikers were protesting the Iraq War, no doubt.

    In 1997, then-Mayor Willie Brown tried to control the rides. The result was anarchy [heh] and mass arrests.

    Fascist police state bully-boy…Willie Brown!

  80. 80.

    Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop

    April 4, 2007 at 4:17 pm

    No, not actually, I remember “Read my lips, NO NEW TAXES” – remember that lie, EEEL?

    “What did you say the fish was called?”

    Sorry, I thought you were starting a non sequitur contest.

  81. 81.

    Rome Again

    April 4, 2007 at 4:23 pm

    Well everyone knows that it takes a few years for a president’s decisions to really impact the nation. Isn’t that why I heard recently about Georgie wanting to sign legislation that goes into effect AFTER he leaves office? Sorry I don’t have the link now, but it was discussed not too long ago. I’m sure someone else will be along with a link to it soon enough.

  82. 82.

    Rome Again

    April 4, 2007 at 4:28 pm

    “What did you say the fish was called?”

    The Incredible Mr. Limpet?

  83. 83.

    Pb

    April 4, 2007 at 4:29 pm

    I’ll sleep soundly at night knowing that if I had my way, Iraqis would be free and living in peace and democracy

    How’s that going?

  84. 84.

    EJ

    April 4, 2007 at 5:14 pm

    Well, Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop, I’d agree that Critical Mass has been pretty much bad news for several years now. I have friends who used to do it every month back in the old days, now no one I know will go near it.

    But this is relevant to the original post, how, exactly?

  85. 85.

    mrmobi

    April 4, 2007 at 5:38 pm

    Don’t worry, it didn’t impact how coherent you were.

    Yes, ‘twas but a blemish on the Mona Lisa.

    More like a pustule on the destroyed face of The Picture of Dorian Gray, as painted by Ivan Albright.

  86. 86.

    Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop

    April 4, 2007 at 7:25 pm

    More like a pustule on the destroyed face of The Picture of Dorian Gray, as painted by Ivan Albright.

    Since not one of you has even attempted to dispute even one of my arguments, I’d say Mona Lisa is more like it.

  87. 87.

    Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop

    April 4, 2007 at 7:34 pm

    But this is relevant to the original post, how, exactly?

    Just that John was correct in his original assessment of protesters — they tend toward the lunatic and unstable. He’s being duped by Big Media into buying the “good little protester getting hassled by the man” tripe.

  88. 88.

    elf

    April 4, 2007 at 8:41 pm

    John, You sound almost as naive as I used to be. You bet these aholes pulled that crap in D.C. and NY. But on the other hand I was around to see what was happening during Nixon’s fiasco and sat totally appalled thru the Iran Contra hearings; so I am not surprised at this. But I am grateful it has come to light. Gives me pause for hope.

Comments are closed.

Trackbacks

  1. I’m a terrorist at Speedkill says:
    April 3, 2007 at 11:29 pm

    […] I will not be defeated! You’ll have to do far more that detain me for protesting the war. Come on, bust out the internment camps already! Patterson says “secular liberals and secular progressives” hate America and everything it stands for, and would much rather see the U.S. defeated than victorious in Iraq. […]

  2. The United States Used to Be Lots of Fun § Unqualified Offerings says:
    April 7, 2007 at 8:35 pm

    […] paranoid about government power. The reason is simple- experience . . . Posted by Jim Henley @ 8:35 pm, Filed under: Main « « Hospitality Link | Main| […]

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