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You are here: Home / Politics / Domestic Politics / Bible Study

Bible Study

by John Cole|  April 11, 200710:34 am| 99 Comments

This post is in: Domestic Politics, Politics

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Via Sullivan, this link to Jews On First that discusses the new elective in Bible Study that is being pushed through the Texas Legislature:

Texas legislators are moving full speed ahead with a bill mandating elective Bible classes in the state’s public high schools that appears crafted to facilitate use of a fundamentalist Protestant curriculum. Jewish groups have opposed that sectarian curriculum, but they were unable to testify at a hearing scheduled during Passover.

The bill is moving at a time of heightened interest in public school Bible classes sparked by a new book advocating such courses and a Time Magazine cover story about it.

Texas House Bill 1287 requires all school districts in the state to establish “elective courses in the history and literature of the Old and New Testaments eras.” It also requires the use of those two books as texts.

While we all know I normally get hysterical aboutthis stuff, I am less so about this. If you read the link, it is clearly designed to bypass more “moderate” Bible Study classes, but overall, I will do less hyperventilating about elective courses than I will the wholesale destruction of science classes to cater to creationist whims.

And a minor quibble- both Sullivan and Jews on First use a phrasing that could be considered misleading.

Sullivan:

They’re mandating a Bible study elective in Texas schools, and they’ve geared the materials for a Protestant fundamentalist tilt.

Jews on First:

Texas legislators are moving full speed ahead with a bill mandating elective Bible classes in the state’s public high schools that appears crafted to facilitate use of a fundamentalist Protestant curriculum.

If read carelessly, one could conclude that they are mandating bible study. They are not. They are mandating that an elective course in Bible Study be offered. That is, in and of itself, not problematic. The problematic aspect begins when you look at the content, which appears to be a very sectarian version of religious truth, which should not be what schools offer if they feel the need to provide electives in religious studies.

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99Comments

  1. 1.

    The Other Steve

    April 11, 2007 at 10:38 am

    I had Bible Study when I was in high school.

    Ok, it was part of British Literature, and we simply talked about the impact of the King James version on the English language.

  2. 2.

    Zifnab

    April 11, 2007 at 10:41 am

    I totally can’t wait to see this hit Texas classrooms. An elective course in Bible Study? Growing up in a school split between heavy Roman Catholic, Baptist, and Methodist, congregassions, I do not envy the teacher who tries to explain the origins of the Pope or the significance of holy communine.

    Might as well throw a landmine in the classroom. This is practically an invitation for the various denominations to start eating each other alive.

  3. 3.

    Tim F.

    April 11, 2007 at 10:42 am

    Your Texas Republican Platform at work. Don’t blame them for not spelling it out in advance.

    BTW, as long as they’re just electives TX should mandate another one on why Jews can’t accept shit that’s like right in front of their face and why Mormonism is bullshit.

  4. 4.

    Andrew

    April 11, 2007 at 10:43 am

    Can we trade Texas back to Mexico for Baja?

  5. 5.

    Pb

    April 11, 2007 at 10:43 am

    More disturbing yet are the details about the assholes in charge here:

    In testimony to the Texas House Education Committee last week, the author of HB 1287, Republican Rep. Warren Chisum (pictured at left), revealed an evangelizing interest in the legislation. “If we don’t have a moral people, our laws are not sufficient to govern an immoral body of people,” he said, according to an editorial in the San Antonio Express-News.
    […]
    As chair of the chamber’s appropriations committee, Chisum is the second most important member of the Texas House. In February he circulated a memo to all his colleagues condemning evolution as a long-secret Jewish religious text (information he obtained from the fixedearth.com website).

    Apparently bigotry is a “moral standard” in Texas…

  6. 6.

    Punchy

    April 11, 2007 at 10:43 am

    If read carelessly by a complete fucking idiot who was too damn stupid to know what “elective” meant, one could conclude that they are mandating bible study

    Lengthy fix for the obvious. It’s Texas, people, so the fix was quite appropriate.

  7. 7.

    bored

    April 11, 2007 at 10:45 am

    As Justice Kennedy noted in the Weisman decision: “Research in psychology supports the common assumption that adolescents are often susceptible to pressure from their peers toward conformity, and that the influence is strongest in matters of social convention.”

    That’s part of why “voluntary” school prayer is deeply un-American, and has been found so by the Supreme Court. Everyone knows that in public-school settings, the actions of the majority create a compelling pressure towards conformity.

    Everyone knows it. Especially people trying to create “elective” bible-study classes.

    “Voluntary” school prayer isn’t voluntary. And “elective” bible-study won’t be elective.

  8. 8.

    ThymeZone

    April 11, 2007 at 10:47 am

    On the face of it, one has to agree with your overall assessment.

    But this is Texas, and they have a long history of trying to use public education to advance religious agendas down there. Therefore, I don’t trust this move at all.

    Why does the class have to be a “Bible study” and not just a “religious study” with a broad syllabus?

  9. 9.

    DJAnyReason

    April 11, 2007 at 10:51 am

    Uhh, I think my objection to this would be using taxpayer money to fund a bible study class. Sorry, that’s a pretty facial violation of the establishment clause.

    The state can’t discriminate against religious groups if they’re just trying to use resources available to everybody, but the state absolutely cannot spend money promoting religion.

  10. 10.

    Myrtle Parker

    April 11, 2007 at 10:52 am

    They are mandating that an elective course in Bible Study be offered. That is, in and of itself, not problematic.”

    Could not disagree more. They are mandating that state public schools offer a course in one particular religion. They are very specifically favoring one religion over another. They are trespassing on the first amendment by mandating an establishment of one religion over another.

    I would have no problem with a school offering a voluntary elective in Bible study (not the religion, the text) if there was sufficient demand. Likewise, if their was sufficient demand for a course on the history of wicca, so be it. But the State has NO INTEREST in MANDATING that Bible study classes, IN PARTICULAR, are offered.

  11. 11.

    John Cole

    April 11, 2007 at 10:55 am

    Myrtle, you are probably right.

    Regardless, while I do not support this, I am less hysterical about it than I am some of the other recent moves to insert religion into everything.

  12. 12.

    David

    April 11, 2007 at 11:01 am

    I wondered what the hell “mandatory elective” was supposed to mean. How bad a sign is it that my first reaction was “wow, they’re being more forthright than usual with the doublespeak”?

  13. 13.

    bored

    April 11, 2007 at 11:02 am

    “less hysterical’–
    that’s called “numb”, John.

    It’s why the Republicans foul on every play. Eventually your sense of perspective gets lost–this outrage is not quite as visibly unAmerican as yesterday’s, and it only manages to trash the First Amendment without trashing the First, Fourth, and Fifth like yesterday’s did, so…yawn.

  14. 14.

    Chad N. Freude

    April 11, 2007 at 11:03 am

    In testimony to the Texas House Education Committee last week, the author of HB 1287, Republican Rep. Warren Chisum (pictured at left), revealed an evangelizing interest in the legislation. “If we don’t have a moral people, our laws are not sufficient to govern an immoral body of people Americans are immoral and should not be permitted to govern themselves, they must be governed by us.”

    Translated.

    In February he circulated a memo to all his colleagues condemning evolution as a long-secret Jewish religious text

    He left out the part about the cabal of Jewish international bankers.
    Questions: Is evolution a text? Is evolution secret? Can’t we have anti-Semitism that’s grammatical and conforms to facts?

  15. 15.

    Dungheap

    April 11, 2007 at 11:06 am

    What the hell is wrong with an elective course in Comparative Religion? Why Bible classes?

    This is just a foot in the door to proselytize on the taxpayer dime just like “abstinence education.” On its face it isn’t too overt but in practice it’s a different story.

  16. 16.

    Fledermaus

    April 11, 2007 at 11:07 am

    They are mandating that an elective course in Bible Study be offered. That is, in and of itself, not problematic.

    Yes it is. Nothing currently prohibits local school dist from offering these classes as electives. Why mandate it at the state level? Now the school boards who don’t offer such class have to go out and spend money on hiring a qualified teacher, buying materials, etc etc. Even if no one want to take the class.

    There is a time and a place for religeous instruction – it’s called sunday church.

  17. 17.

    Myrtle Parker

    April 11, 2007 at 11:11 am

    Nothing wrong with studying the beatitudes as beautiful poetry or philosophy.

    Everything wrong with studying the beatitudes to conclude person who spoke them was either savior or liar.

    Everything wrong with mandating that schools devote resources to studying beatitudes, _in particular_.

  18. 18.

    Zifnab

    April 11, 2007 at 11:11 am

    “Voluntary” school prayer isn’t voluntary. And “elective” bible-study won’t be elective.

    That depends on how its taught. I can say from experience that the popularity of a course is directly proportional to the ease of getting an A. If the teacher wants to be a Nazi about the subject and has a reputation for just failing kids she doesn’t like, you’ll see alot of empty classrooms. If the course it taught by a teacher who just doesn’t care and it gets turned into a blow-off class, then expect it to be packed wall-to-wall.

    Social dynamics cut more than one way and I honestly don’t envy the class half-full of Goth kids who want to just see how much grief they can dole out before they get booted from the class.

  19. 19.

    numbskull

    April 11, 2007 at 11:14 am

    I thought I was the numbskull, you numbskull.

    Are they mandating elective courses in the texts of any other religion? No? You don’t see the inherent problem there?

    Are they mandating elective courses in the King James version of the bible? The Catholic verson? Will the New Testament be KJ or Good News for Modern Man? Which Lord’s Prayer will be taught? In other words, who chooses the “textbook” and which one will it be? ‘Cause there are some differences, and people have killed over those differences, even among “Christians”.

    No matter how this is sliced and diced, John, this is a very bad idea.

  20. 20.

    Chad N. Freude

    April 11, 2007 at 11:18 am

    Having had the experience of attending school in an era and a place when/where religion in the classroom was taken for granted and every student was simply assumed to be Christian, I am not in favor of this sort of thing. And, pace John, I think it’s a big deal.

  21. 21.

    Mr Furious

    April 11, 2007 at 11:19 am

    They are mandating that an elective course in Bible Study be offered. That is, in and of itself, not problematic.

    Not a problem? Are you nuts, John?

    Myrtle is right on the money. And that’s before you even deal with the fact that this is certainly a trojan horse way of wedging this shit into the curriculum.

  22. 22.

    Chad N. Freude

    April 11, 2007 at 11:21 am

    If the teacher wants to be a Nazi about the subject and has a reputation for just failing kids she doesn’t like, you’ll see alot of empty classrooms.

    Earth to Zifnab: This is Texas. How many parents will not insist that their kids “elect” to take these courses?

  23. 23.

    Mr Furious

    April 11, 2007 at 11:24 am

    John, did you stop reading Sullivan’s post to compose your response? He included this revealing quote from the bill’s sponsor:

    “I don’t believe there’s such a thing as the separation of church and state. In fact, the First Amendment to the Constitution actually calls on the United States Congress to make sure, to ensure that people are allowed to practice their religion.”

    That’s a fucking problem alright. And should worry the shit out of you.

    “the Constitution actually calls on the United States Congress to make sure, to ensure that people are allowed to practice their religion.” How about the other 18 hours a day they are NOT in public school, Congressman?

  24. 24.

    p.lukasiak

    April 11, 2007 at 11:29 am

    again, we’re talking about Texas, which means that lots of school districts could structure their “elective” course selections in such a way that students would be forced into Bible study class.

    For instance, every student is required to take electives during 3rd period, and there is one small basketweaving elective, one small advanced physics elective, and 20 sections of Bible class electives. Once the other two electives are full, everyone else winds up in the Bible Class elective.

  25. 25.

    Pb

    April 11, 2007 at 11:30 am

    And…

    I don’t believe there’s such a thing as the separation of church and state.

    Then move to Iran, you’ll fit right in!

  26. 26.

    Mr Furious

    April 11, 2007 at 11:31 am

    More from the source article:

    In testimony to the Texas House Education Committee last week, the author of HB 1287, Republican Rep. Warren Chisum (pictured at left), revealed an evangelizing interest in the legislation. “If we don’t have a moral people, our laws are not sufficient to govern an immoral body of people,” he said, according to an editorial in the San Antonio Express-News.
    He also said: “I would hope that we get a better-prepared student to go out into the world and understand what they believe, … how it’s [this country] put together, why we are different from some others on this planet.

    “The United States doesn’t have more resources, but we do better. A lot of it’s because of what’s written in that book, because we have a moral standard. Not everybody has a moral standard,” Chisum added, according to the Fort Worth Star-Telegram.

    [alarm buzzer] That doesn’t sound to me like any kind of neutral analysis or literary angle driving this mandate, it’s a straight-up attempt to inject religious moralizing and evangelizing into the classroom with the bonus helping of jinoistic bullshit downgrading other religions (Islam, anyone) as immoral.

    I know these clowns won’t be specifically setting the curriculum (yet), but this is opening a fucking Pandora’s Box…

  27. 27.

    Mr Furious

    April 11, 2007 at 11:33 am

    Read that part again:

    “…a better-prepared student to go out into the world and understand what they believe”

    Quite an assumption by the Congressman there.

  28. 28.

    John S.

    April 11, 2007 at 11:35 am

    There’s nothing wrong with studying the Bible in public school – as a piece of literature. Teaching it as the word of G-d is another matter altogether. I myself studied the Bible in high school – but I also studied the Koran and several other religious texts. I highly doubt that is the purpose of this effort.

    And this:

    Jewish groups have opposed that sectarian curriculum, but they were unable to testify at a hearing scheduled during Passover.

    Is simply disgusting. I’m sure it was just an ‘oversight’ to purposely exclude Jews from the hearings.

  29. 29.

    Tsulagi

    April 11, 2007 at 11:37 am

    In February he circulated a memo to all his colleagues condemning evolution as a long-secret Jewish religious text

    I like that one. Yep, you could sure count on a fair and balanced approach to public school Bible study classes from legislators like that.

    Well, if there is such a demand for Bible study classes, then apparently local churches have been slacking. How about this? How about those good Christian legislators, no doubt active in their churches, rally their congregations to provide truly elective Bible study courses to meet that pent up demand instead of using public funding? In their churches or at home where it belongs.

    No public government funding for bringing religion into public school classrooms, on an elective basis or not.

  30. 30.

    Mr Furious

    April 11, 2007 at 11:38 am

    Seriously John. think this over and get back to us in a few hours.

  31. 31.

    RSA

    April 11, 2007 at 11:44 am

    Mandatory elective courses. I’d be interested in seeing what other courses are required to be taught in Texas schools, either as core courses or as electives. I assume some kind of U.S. history? World history? World religions? Ethics? Logic? All of these are more important than Biblical literacy, I think.

  32. 32.

    Pb

    April 11, 2007 at 11:45 am

    Here’s an idea… if there’s no separation between church and state, then can the state mandate that churches teach courses in evolution? Or, failing that, at least make them pay their fucking taxes already?

  33. 33.

    Rome Again

    April 11, 2007 at 11:47 am

    I’m just throwing my voice in with the others, if they want to do it without public funding that’s one thing, but doing it in the schools, mandating it at state level and appointing only study towards biblical information sounds wrong to me.

    I agree with TZ, this is another way to try to insert bible religion in the schools, just a little more covertly.

  34. 34.

    Andrew

    April 11, 2007 at 11:48 am

    Or, failing that, at least make them pay their fucking taxes already?

    Yeah, I fucking hate subsidizing some other asshole’s religion. Screw that.

  35. 35.

    Chad N. Freude

    April 11, 2007 at 11:49 am

    Mr Furious Says:

    Read that part again:

    “…a better-prepared student to go out into the world and understand what they believe he [the student] believes”

    Quite an assumption by the Congressman there.

    Fixed to correct Texas grammar and prevent misrteading.

  36. 36.

    Chad N. Freude

    April 11, 2007 at 11:52 am

    All of these are more important than Biblical literacy, I think.

    That’s the trouble with you secularists, skewed priorities. And who said anything about literacy? That implies critical thinking, and we can’t have that. It’s all about indoctrination.

  37. 37.

    ThymeZone

    April 11, 2007 at 11:57 am

    Or, failing that, at least make them pay their fucking taxes already?

    Why do you hate Jesus?

    (NMYM)

  38. 38.

    Zifnab

    April 11, 2007 at 11:58 am

    Earth to Zifnab: This is Texas. How many parents will not insist that their kids “elect” to take these courses?

    Probably the same number of parents that were already bludgeoning their kids over the head with the bible to begin with, only you need to subtract out all the parents who think their kids are going to get some sort of evil, corrupted, secularized/Mormonized/bastardized/satanized version of scripture that doesn’t fit with their specific doctrine.

    There’s no shortage of religious schools in Texas. Parents who would normally be die-hards about this sort of thing will likely have already sent their kids to one of those.

    From a student’s perspective, I can garantee that more than one school will regret this because there is soooo much stratification even within the Christian faith about what the bible says. I pity da foo who has to teach this class.

    People are just asking to hyper-politicize religion in education. If I were a public school teacher, I wouldn’t touch this class with a fifty foot pole. It’s a total landmine.

  39. 39.

    Katie

    April 11, 2007 at 12:02 pm

    When I was in high school (about 25 years ago), you had to take 4 years of english. I don’t think that happens anymore. One semester of those english classes had to be something called “The Bible as Literature”. At the time, I hated it. My family is pretty a-religious and I thought it was going to be some sort of religion class. I really didn’t like the class much but it HAS proven very useful over the years since I can now at least recognize biblical references in both written word and in conversations. Being so anti religion myself, I really hate to admit that.

    In retrospect, it must have been a very difficult class to teach without putting any religion into it at all–after all it WAS the bible! The instructors made a huge, (and successful) effort to keep any religion out of it. The class was done strictly for the purpose of being able to understand biblical references in other literature, and I think as such, it was pretty successful.

    Teaching the bible can be done without inserting a bunch of religious hooey into it. I think that you have to do it carefully and that it would be really really easy to slip into proselytizing. In some of the bible belt areas I can’t even imagine how they could keep it a strictly literature type class. It would be way too tempting to drift into religion discussions.

    They did little sections on some other religious texts, but not many as it was really geared toward recognizing biblical references in other literature.

  40. 40.

    Bubblegum Tate

    April 11, 2007 at 12:06 pm

    This is practically an invitation for the various denominations to start eating each other alive.

    Which may be the one and only positive byproduct of this bullshit.

    Or, failing that, at least make them pay their fucking taxes already?

    Or, on the flip side, seeing as how wingnut assholes constantly scream how agnosticism is a religion (which makes no fucking sense…but it’s wingnuts we’re talking about here), then I want all the perks churches get, too, from tax-exempt status all the way down to specially reserved parking spaces on city streets.

  41. 41.

    John Cole

    April 11, 2007 at 12:07 pm

    I have thought it over. I oppose it and have from the start.

    I don’t think there needs to be any bible study in classrooms, elective or otherwise. I certainly don’t think there needs to be a very narrow portrayal of religion that excludes other religions in classrooms.

    I oppose all of that.

    But I am less hysterical about this than I would be if they were trying to supplant biology with intelligent design. And, as I stated, I do not think a balanced elective in religious studies or bible study is terribly problematic. This is a society in which we have a number of religious types, and e have to live together. What I do have a problem with mainly, though is what I stated in the post:

    The problematic aspect begins when you look at the content, which appears to be a very sectarian version of religious truth, which should not be what schools offer if they feel the need to provide electives in religious studies.

    I don’t think I am being too lax here, and I challenge anyone to be as reactionary as I am to the religious crazies.

  42. 42.

    Bubblegum Tate

    April 11, 2007 at 12:08 pm

    Oh, also, “Jews on First” is a freaking fantastic blog name.

  43. 43.

    Rome Again

    April 11, 2007 at 12:11 pm

    I don’t think I am being too lax here, and I challenge anyone to be as reactionary as I am to the religious crazies.

    Trust me, you don’t want to go there with me.

  44. 44.

    Rome Again

    April 11, 2007 at 12:12 pm

    Which may be the one and only positive byproduct of this bullshit.

    Yes, watching “de-nominations” de-nominate themselves further is always good sport, where’s the popcorn?

  45. 45.

    Sri Ramkrishna

    April 11, 2007 at 12:20 pm

    Zifnab says:

    People are just asking to hyper-politicize religion in education. If I were a public school teacher, I wouldn’t touch this class with a fifty foot pole. It’s a total landmine.

    Totally agree. All it takes is for little Opie to jump up in the middle of class and say, “That’s not what my Paw says! My Paw says the Pope is the head of Christianity!”. Opie runs home, and tells his Paw that he’s wrong and that the Pope is not the head of Christianity because the teacher sez so. Paw brings his shotgun to school for show-n-tell.

    There are so many variations of any religious ideology that stepping into that cesspool is going to set their own religious faith back as rival religious factions hit back. Religion should be a private thing between your family/your church/your community. Sadly, Texan republicans are only social conservatives and nothing more.

    sri

  46. 46.

    Andrew

    April 11, 2007 at 12:21 pm

    Why do you hate Jesus?

    Jew here. Ain’t it obvious? We killed him, after all. And I have a fantastic recipe for matzoh that’s half Baptist and half Lutheran baby blood. Catholic is way too clumpy, BTW.

  47. 47.

    Vladi G

    April 11, 2007 at 12:22 pm

    I don’t think I am being too lax here, and I challenge anyone to be as reactionary as I am to the religious crazies.

    I do. Quite simply, it’s taxpayer money going toward teaching religion to kids. Just because it’s only being taught to kids who want to be taught, and just because kids who don’t want to take it don’t have to, that doesn’t change the fact that it’s being funded with public money.

    If you want your kid to learn religion in school, send them to private school, or home school. But don’t use my money to pay for it.

  48. 48.

    Zifnab

    April 11, 2007 at 12:22 pm

    I remember back in English 2 in high school we read “Lord of the Flies”, which – at least according our teacher – had some incredibly heavy-handed religious references. At one point, our teacher took a bible in one hand, the LotF book in the other, and went line by line comparing one of the Gospel’s accounts of the death of Jesus to LotF’s account of the death of Simon.

    That was the model, in my mind, for religious studies. Allegorical comparison. Rhetorical technique. Even historical reference. That’s fine. In fact, its better than fine, its fantastic and I totally encourage it.

    But the gist of the Texas initative isn’t to teach the bible, but to glorify it. Congressmen are pushing this as though the Bible is some sort of essential building block of society and I imagine that’s how the textbook will read. All things from biblical truth. The potential for this to bleed into every other class – from US History to Biological Science to College Algebra – is epic. That’s what really disturbs me. If this was being billed as a cultural thing – like History of Jazz or Art Appreciation – I’d be more ok with it. But this is getting too much hype and too much political punch. It’s just asking to explode, especially knowing how Texas selects its textbooks.

  49. 49.

    Mr Furious

    April 11, 2007 at 12:25 pm

    I don’t think I am being too lax here, and I challenge anyone to be as reactionary as I am to the religious crazies.

    I can hold my own there as well.

  50. 50.

    Chad N. Freude

    April 11, 2007 at 12:28 pm

    a balanced elective in religious studies or bible study

    Yeah, that’s what this is about. You can tell that from the statements of the bill’s sponsors.

  51. 51.

    Mr Furious

    April 11, 2007 at 12:29 pm

    Good post, zifnab. Exactly what I meant by Trojan Horse and Pandora’s Box. The lazy man’s way of saying what you just articulated.

    I remember the Bible being part of a “Revolutions in Western Thought” class I took in college (state school, btw), but it was one of many books and treated pretty “clinically.” This is a whole other animal.

  52. 52.

    Jay C

    April 11, 2007 at 12:34 pm

    Wow! Just WOW! Texas Rep Chisum gets his “information” from fixedearth.com, does he? Check out the site: yep, a real bastion of scientific objectivity there: as it’s subhead states:

    Exposing the False Science Idol of Evolutionism,
    and Proving the Truthfulness of the Bible from Creation to Heaven…

    But my fave was their big caption:

    EXTRA! EXTRA!

    Read all about the Copernican and Darwinian Myths
    (and their many ramifications going all the way to Kabbala-based Big Bangism!)

    So these folks also believe that the Copernican system of astronomy is a “myth”?? What’s next? Mandating that science classes offer the theory of phlogiston as an alternative?

  53. 53.

    Keith

    April 11, 2007 at 12:35 pm

    Maybe someone else has a different experience, but a program of mandatory electives doesn’t mean that you must take this elective or that elective; you’ve got a pool of electives, and you must take a certain number of different kinds.
    Now, the problem with this program is not that on its face, it teaches the Bible from a literary standpoint, but rather that it’s extremely open for abuse. We can cross our fingers and hope that it doesn’t happen, but once it’s done, it’ll take years to undo.

  54. 54.

    Rome Again

    April 11, 2007 at 12:54 pm

    I remember back in English 2 in high school we read “Lord of the Flies”, which – at least according our teacher – had some incredibly heavy-handed religious references. At one point, our teacher took a bible in one hand, the LotF book in the other, and went line by line comparing one of the Gospel’s accounts of the death of Jesus to LotF’s account of the death of Simon.

    Now, THAT is cool.

    Furthermore, if they did a comparison of Jesus with Mithras or Dionysius and several other avatar-types, they’d find more coincidences, such as virgin births… Hmmmm, who knew?

  55. 55.

    mrmobi

    April 11, 2007 at 12:56 pm

    Can’t we have anti-Semitism that’s grammatical and conforms to facts?

    Not with the jokers who are running Texas, we can’t!

  56. 56.

    mrmobi

    April 11, 2007 at 12:58 pm

    Levitating Globe

    “An electromagnet and computerized sensor hidden in its

    display stand cause the Earth to levitate motionlessly in the air.”

    Could God have engineered something like that for the real Earth?

    The Bible and all real evidence confirms that this is precisely what He did, and indeed:

    The Earth is not rotating…nor is it going around the sun.

    The universe is not one ten trillionth the size we are told.

    Today’s cosmology fulfills an anti-Bible religious plan disguised as “science”.

    The whole scheme from Copernicanism to Big Bangism is a factless lie.

    Those lies have planted the Truth-killing virus of evolutionism

    in every aspect of man’s “knowledge” about the Universe, the

    Earth, and Himself.

    Take your time.

    Check it all out.

    Decide for yourself.

  57. 57.

    mrmobi

    April 11, 2007 at 1:04 pm

    Just wanted to point out that the denizens of fixedearth.com just need to get out there and find the really, really big electromagnet to prove their hypothesis.

  58. 58.

    Punchy

    April 11, 2007 at 1:04 pm

    Why does the class have to be a “Bible study” and not just a “religious study” with a broad syllabus?

    Cuz nobody wants those Dirty Brown People dragging their booby-trapped Korans into schools where their precious white kids go. In fact, can Muslim children even ATTEND school in Texas? If so, where?

  59. 59.

    JC

    April 11, 2007 at 1:05 pm

    I have sort of a unique view, but it probably wouldn’t work.

    I am all in favor of mandated teaching of religion in school, from about 5th to 12th grade. But I have a kicker. It needs to be at 7 to 10 of the major religions.

    So you first start with all the creation myths of the great religions. That would be in grade 5, going through the creation myths.

    Then in 6th and 7th, read the stories, the old Testament, The Mahabharata, portions of the Talmud, about the Prophet, some Chang-tzu, some good personal mythos stories, of the various Godmen.

    8th and 9th, get into the underlying ethical do’s and don’ts of the various religions. Draw out similarities, differences. Also trace the history of the religious organizations in the world, dealing with various splinterings of the religions (Catholicism into Lutherans, Calvinists, Islam into Sunnis/Shiites, Buddhism into Therevada/Hinaya, as well as the re-absorption of Buddhism into Hinduism, via Shankara’s incorporation of Buddhism into the Hindu stories.)

    10th, 11th – get into the deeper, philosphical propounding of the various schools. Talmud scholars, Augustine, Shankara, Lao-Tzu, etc. Again, find that there are similarities in the descriptions of “higher states”, point out that states do seem to be accessible to people (as brain-states, not as “fundamental spiritual truths”)

    12th – personal study and experimentation with one or more of the various religious traditions. Review the development of the notion of “god”, from the mythic, to the rational (deist) to the modern, to the postmodern – versions of “God” that can co-exist with current scientific understanding (not your mom’s God).

    There is a lot of benefit to religious studies, and I think that religious studies from around 11 to 12, can be useful:

    a. Ethically
    b. Multiculturally
    c. Orientation against nihilism.

    But again, that’s me.

  60. 60.

    Rome Again

    April 11, 2007 at 1:06 pm

    Take your time.

    Check it all out.

    Decide for yourself.

    Where is their proof? Because some man on earth build a machine that could levitate a globe? It’s hypothesis only. OMFG!

  61. 61.

    Rome Again

    April 11, 2007 at 1:08 pm

    portions of the Talmud

    to 6th and 7th graders? Sorry, I disagree, completely.

  62. 62.

    JC

    April 11, 2007 at 1:09 pm

    “Jews on First”

    “Buddht’s on Second”?

    “I Don’t Know’s (agnostics) on Third?”

  63. 63.

    mrmobi

    April 11, 2007 at 1:10 pm

    Today’s cosmology fulfills an anti-Bible religious plan disguised as “science”.

    You see, this is what I’m talking about. Christianists don’t see science as science, but as a stalking horse for the end of Christianity.

    This has been another edition of “why you should not elect complete morons to your state legislature.”

  64. 64.

    JC

    April 11, 2007 at 1:13 pm

    portions of the Talmud – to 6th and 7th graders? Sorry, I disagree, completely.

    Yeah, that’s probably true – Talmud should wait till 10th or 11th, I guess.

  65. 65.

    Rome Again

    April 11, 2007 at 1:13 pm

    You see, this is what I’m talking about. Christianists don’t see science as science, but as a stalking horse for the end of Christianity.

    They would rather defend their fairytales than explore truths.

  66. 66.

    Rome Again

    April 11, 2007 at 1:19 pm

    Yeah, that’s probably true – Talmud should wait till 10th or 11th, I guess.

    I have an easier time with 10th or 11th grade for Talmud study (portions only even at that age) than I do 6th or 7th. That information is just too delicate for those wee ones, sorry.

  67. 67.

    Stacy

    April 11, 2007 at 1:22 pm

    My Southern home town is fairly well split between Catholics, Baptists, and Church of Christ. The Catholics and the Church of Christ people hate each other, and each have their own local radio program talking about why the other is completely wrong. The Baptists know that outside of this particular town they own everything, so they have no need to be overly obnoxious. The few remaining people are split between small Presbyterian, Methodist, and Pentecostal churches.

    I totally hate the idea of public school bible study, elective or no, but I have to say, it would be fun to sit in on a few of these bible study classes at my old high school. It would probably start with the Church of Christ, since they don’t believe they are in any way descended from the Catholic church. The Catholics would then jump in. Then, the Baptists would speak up to say “Y’all, it’s clearly like this…” Big fist fight, probably escalate to knives. If you stay out of the rumble, it would be good, cheap entertainment.

  68. 68.

    Punchy

    April 11, 2007 at 1:23 pm

    There are so many variations of any religious ideology that stepping into that cesspool is going to set their own religious faith back as rival religious factions hit back. Religion should be a private thing between your family/your church/your community. Sadly, Texan republicans are only social conservatives and nothing more.

    This could not possibly be more dead-on.

    Just WAIT for the first parent who comes bitching to the Principal, complaining that Jesus did this and never did that. Teacher offers retraction in class, confusing the kids more. So next parent comes in complaining that the teacher isn’t sure what he/she’s doing, so Principal has teacher just teach the basics. Until another parent refuses to have their kids learn about the End Times, as it’s too violent and disturbing. And the next one claims that The Divinci Code should be discussed, etc.

    And EVERY SINGLE PARENT bitches when their great, morally upstanding, polite and nice kid somehow got a “C” in this class, meaning he’s not quite Jesus Jr. that the parent thinks he is. Talk about a fucking mess.

    How one teaches such an incredibly subjective, emotional, and loaded cirriculum to a bunch of kids is the million dollar question.

  69. 69.

    Dreggas

    April 11, 2007 at 1:26 pm

    You know I would have no faith in texas had I not met two very cool people from there at DomCon this past weekend. That being said can we have a mini-rapture and get all the cool people out before we kick them out of the union?

  70. 70.

    Dreggas

    April 11, 2007 at 1:30 pm

    >Punchy Says:

    How one teaches such an incredibly subjective, emotional, and loaded cirriculum to a bunch of kids is the million dollar question.

    by putting said children, school officials, and the parents of said children into a steel cage and showing it live on Pay-Per-View?

  71. 71.

    Jake

    April 11, 2007 at 1:41 pm

    “If we don’t have a moral people, our laws are not sufficient to govern an immoral body of people,”

    Plank? Mote? Ring any bells Mr. Crap Maggot? Guess not.

    Still it’s nice to witness another case of Texass aiming a bazooka at its foot. If a mandate to include elective Bible Study goes through, how can they legitimately object to electives for Introduction to Human Sexuality or Atheism 101?

    Yer doin’ a heckuva job Tex.

  72. 72.

    pharniel

    April 11, 2007 at 1:57 pm

    hey, let them generate more firepower
    – anyway, here in liberal town MI we had bible lit.
    *shrug* I just assumed that everywhere pretty much alredy had it.

  73. 73.

    Dreggas

    April 11, 2007 at 2:00 pm

    pharniel Says:

    hey, let them generate more firepower – anyway, here in liberal town MI we had bible lit.
    shrug I just assumed that everywhere pretty much alredy had it.

    As much as I am sure the Fundies would have wanted it, we never had it even in the middle of the banjo belt of Upstate NY. We only briefly covered some of it in history class and that was cursory as it related to ancient times.

  74. 74.

    Bubblegum Tate

    April 11, 2007 at 2:00 pm

    Big fist fight, probably escalate to knives.

    I’m picturing the news team rumble from Anchorman. “Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean, that really got out of hand fast.”

  75. 75.

    Fecapult

    April 11, 2007 at 2:17 pm

    How one teaches such an incredibly subjective, emotional, and loaded cirriculum to a bunch of kids is the million dollar question.

    I believe it’s called “Sunday School”

  76. 76.

    Davebo

    April 11, 2007 at 2:22 pm

    Off topic but…

    With all the discussion about why politicians and insider journalists appear on the Imus radio show I had to wonder. Why do prominent Republican politicians post at Red State?

    Have they never read the place?

  77. 77.

    Remfin

    April 11, 2007 at 2:41 pm

    I’d just like to point out a problem with so many of the assumptions saying it’s kind of OK – you are completely ignoring the dastardly crap that will be pulled. Here’s a hypothetical

    Block #4, Tues. & Thurs.:
    Math 9 (Algebra, whatever it is nowadays)
    P.E. 2
    AP Calculus
    Bible Study (“elective”)
    English 12

    Pretty simple right? You got a 9th, a 10th (PE), an 11th (Calc), and a 12th. Everyone has the ability to take required courses (or that count as such, ala AP)

    Except of course that AP Calc is insanely hard at that year for most people, cost $80 when I went (you had to actually take the college credit test, and the school could “pay” for it then bill you later), and can murder your GPA. And you are required by state law to have a full and accounted for schedule during school hours or you’re a truant.

    Or you can take the free & easy “elective” Bible Study

    Alternatively, they schedule a REAL 11th grade class, and “things go wrong”. A teacher (who they knew was going) quits/gets pregnant. “Well darn we tried to get a full-year sub but no one accepted our $25/week newspaper ad!. It’s OK kids you can just transfer over to Bible Study!!!”

  78. 78.

    Punchy

    April 11, 2007 at 2:43 pm

    I believe it’s called “Sunday School”

    Uh huh. Yeah. Cuz Baptists go to Methodists’ Sunday School. And Catholics enjoy the Mormon’s version; they attend regularly. Of course the Evangelicals frequent the Presbeterians (sp?) Sunday school often.

    They’re all Christian, right? Shouldn’t be a prob to teach a common cirriculum, right? Cuz Sunday school teachers do it all the time with a huge, heterogeneous mix of all diff sects of Christianity, right? Therefore teachers should have no problem. I guess I’m an idiot.

  79. 79.

    Pb

    April 11, 2007 at 2:50 pm

    Davebo,

    Why do prominent Republican politicians post at Red State?

    Because they fit right in? From the current top story at Red State:

    Editorial Note: Thompson will be on Neal Cavuto’s show at 4pm and with Sean Hannity at 4:30pm today to discuss this news.

  80. 80.

    Fecapult

    April 11, 2007 at 3:01 pm

    Shouldn’t be a prob to teach a common cirriculum, right? Cuz Sunday school teachers do it all the time with a huge, heterogeneous mix of all diff sects of Christianity, right? Therefore teachers should have no problem. I guess I’m an idiot.

    Not really sure where this came from – I merely wished to point out that if parents wanted to pass their own ethos onto their progeny, Sunday School would be a good place to plunk em. It’s effective and un-intrusive.

  81. 81.

    Bubblegum Tate

    April 11, 2007 at 3:02 pm

    Why do prominent Republican politicians post at Red State?

    Have they never read the place?

    Probably not. Most are probably aware that the site is just a bunch of hardcore loyalists and therefore simply view it as a conduit to get talking points out to “the base.”

    Then again, I don’t really read RedState–my wingnut hideout of choice is BlogsforBush. They were all atwitter over there that a GOP candidate–I think it was Huckabee–was going to “guest blog” a post. The “guest blog” was basically just the text of a stump speech: Huckabee pointing out his conservative bona fides to a wingnutty audience. The dynamic might be different over at RS, but to me, it just looked like the Huckabee campaign saw it in much the same way they would see an appearance on Fox News or a speech in front of a GOP 527.

  82. 82.

    Chad N. Freude

    April 11, 2007 at 6:16 pm

    All it takes is for little Opie to jump up in the middle of class and say, “That’s not what my Paw says! My Paw says the Pope is the head of Christianity!”. Opie runs home, and tells his Paw that he’s wrong and that the Pope is not the head of Christianity because the teacher sez so. Paw brings his shotgun to school for show-n-tell.

    Big fist fight, probably escalate to knives.

    Just WAIT for the first parent who comes bitching to the Principal, complaining that Jesus did this and never did that. Teacher offers retraction in class, confusing the kids more. So next parent comes in complaining that the teacher isn’t sure what he/she’s doing, so Principal has teacher just teach the basics. Until another parent refuses to have their kids learn about the End Times, as it’s too violent and disturbing. And the next one claims that The Divinci Code should be discussed, etc.And EVERY SINGLE PARENT bitches when their great, morally upstanding, polite and nice kid somehow got a “C” in this class, meaning he’s not quite Jesus Jr. that the parent thinks he is. Talk about a fucking mess.

    Okay, I’m persuaded. The result of these classes would be good for the social health of Texas and grand entertainment for the rest of us. Not to mention the inevitable BJ thread to discuss/lampoon it.

  83. 83.

    Dreggas

    April 11, 2007 at 6:21 pm

    Chad N. Freude Says:

    Okay, I’m persuaded. The result of these classes would be good for the social health of Texas and grand entertainment for the rest of us. Not to mention the inevitable BJ thread to discuss/lampoon it.

    Like I said just broadcast it live on Pay-Per-View and I am sure the bushies know some great fence companies (given their work on our borders) who could easily erect a steel cage around texas.

  84. 84.

    Chad N. Freude

    April 11, 2007 at 6:24 pm

    Rome Again Says:
    portions of the Talmud to 6th and 7th graders? Sorry, I disagree, completely.

    You think it’s too young to learn critical textual analysis, hair-splitting interpretation, legalistic argumentation, and historical citation? I’m not so sure about that, after all, first-graders are pretty good at “But you said …” followed by a tortured interpretation of a parental instruction.

  85. 85.

    Chad N. Freude

    April 11, 2007 at 6:27 pm

    Then again, I don’t really read RedState

    Neither do RedState readers, they just sit in front of their screens and drool.

  86. 86.

    Richard 23

    April 11, 2007 at 6:41 pm

    Then again, I don’t really read RedState—my wingnut hideout of choice is BlogsforBush. They were all atwitter over there that a GOP candidate—I think it was Huckabee—was going to “guest blog” a post.

    Huckabee? Nobody gets all atwitter over Huckabee. Maybe you mean Duncan Hunter.

  87. 87.

    Bubblegum Tate

    April 11, 2007 at 6:45 pm

    Yes, it was Duncan Hunter. I stand corrected.

  88. 88.

    Chad N. Freude

    April 11, 2007 at 6:56 pm

    In re Duncan Hunter:

    His essay on BlogsforBush contains this:

    So, I know what it will take to lead the country to victory in the war on terror.

    That being said, homeland security begins at our nation’s borders.

    Apparently he doesn’t see a disconnect between fighting them over there and the second sentence. Lest any of my fellow commenters be misled by this, that sentence leads into

    Illegal immigration is a national security threat.

    and a claim that he is the candidate who will

    put a stop to illegal immigration

    I recommend reading the entire essay. It is a perfect laundry list of all the issues so dear to the hearts of the 28% base, and filled with pledges that no president will be able to fulfill.

  89. 89.

    Enlightened Layperson

    April 11, 2007 at 7:01 pm

    I propose reading the Bible as it actually is, beginning with Genesis. How many people here have actually read it? You can have Cain murdering Abel, God wiping out the human race, Lot offering his daughters to be raped, the daughters getting even by raping their father, Jacob stealing his birthright and cheating his uncle out of the best livestock, etc etc etc. Move on to Joshua (mostly massacres and more massacres), Judges (a how-to for murder) and so forth.

    Soon parents will be withdrawing their children for fear this immoral book with corrupt them.

  90. 90.

    Chad N. Freude

    April 11, 2007 at 7:04 pm

    Soon parents will be withdrawing their children for fear this immoral book with will corrupt them.

    But it makes blockbuster movies.

  91. 91.

    HyperIon

    April 11, 2007 at 7:24 pm

    I propose reading the Bible as it actually is, beginning with Genesis.

    check out blogging the bible

    i was reading along for a while but then was so appalled by all the violence and idiocy that i had to take a break.

    BTW in senior english in high school we read J.B. (by Archibald MacLeish) and Job side by side. it was pretty cool.

  92. 92.

    Bubblegum Tate

    April 11, 2007 at 7:32 pm

    Yeah, that Blogging the Bible thing is actually quite good. I must admit that I lapsed in reading it and now have quite a bit of catch-up work to do, but it does a very good job of siply laying out the Bible as it’s written and pointing out the positives and negatives therein.

    And yes, the Old Testament is so full of sex and violence, it’s like gangsta rap that doesn’t rhyme and uses antiquated language.

  93. 93.

    Enlightened Layperson

    April 11, 2007 at 7:35 pm

    I have read Blogging the Bible (as well as the Old Testament itself). Confession: Referring the Judges as “a how-to for murder” was borrowed from the series.

  94. 94.

    jake

    April 11, 2007 at 8:08 pm

    Enlightened Layperson makes a good point. I took a course on the Bible as literature (hippy-run private school). We read it cover to cover and it held our interest because “The Good Book” is chock full of sex, murder and general mayhem. Judith makes Lorena Bobbitt look like a Girl Scout. The Song of Solomon could run in Penthouse Forum without much editing. Revelations – clearly the rantings of a guy who munched shrooms like Cheetos.

    Yeah, all of that will go down well with mummy and daddy.

  95. 95.

    Rome Again

    April 11, 2007 at 8:56 pm

    You think it’s too young to learn critical textual analysis, hair-splitting interpretation, legalistic argumentation, and historical citation? I’m not so sure about that, after all, first-graders are pretty good at “But you said …” followed by a tortured interpretation of a parental instruction.

    How do you explain this to a 6th or 7th grader:

    Rava [a fourth century Rabbinic authority] said: If an adult has sex with a
    girl under the age of three, it is ignored, for it is like putting a finger in
    someone’s eye [i.e., tears may drip from the eye but there will always be
    more tears to replace them; so too the hymen of a girl so young may break but it will heal]

    Source: Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Ketubot, pg. 11b

    And all we need is our little children to learn the rule of Kol Nidrei and no one will ever honor a promise again 100 years from now (not that there are many that do now, but some still understand what honor means)

  96. 96.

    Beej

    April 12, 2007 at 1:31 am

    Very interesting thread. Through it all I couldn’t help thinking about my home town, population 420 people. There were 2 churches. The Methodist church (which I attended) had about 60 active members. The other church, the Catholic church, had around 500 active members (some came from the surrounding area). Somehow I managed to get all the way through grade school and high school without so much as a single prayer led by the teacher, without anyone objecting to the teaching of evolution in science class, without a single suggestion from the community that there ought to be an “elective” Bible study class. Isn’t it amazing that my Catholic neighbors, the huge majority, managed to restrain themselves from demanding that the rosary be prayed every morning, the Douay (sp) version of the Bible be studied, and only those scientific views approved by the Pope be taught in the public school. But then, they were fair and rational people. And my home town was not in Texas.

  97. 97.

    AlanDownunder

    April 12, 2007 at 6:02 am

    Bang on, John. The avidity with which people impose their particular creed using instruments of state is inversely proportional to their spirituality and piety. They profess disbelief in the efficacy of government to do anything then strive harder than anyone to get government to advance their aims. This mob aren’t Christians, they’re a GOP branch office.

  98. 98.

    Rome Again

    April 12, 2007 at 10:01 am

    The avidity with which people impose their particular creed using instruments of state is inversely proportional to their spirituality and piety.

    What a great line.

    Yes, yes, I do believe you are correct, sir.

Comments are closed.

Trackbacks

  1. Center of Attention | The Moderate Voice says:
    April 11, 2007 at 11:09 am

    […] Lastly, an interesting post by John Cole at Balloon Juice: “Texas legislators are moving full speed ahead with a bill mandating elective Bible classes in the state’s public high schools that appears crafted to facilitate use of a fundamentalist Protestant curriculum.” […]

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