Religious triumphalists like D’Souza make no sense to me. These guys talk as if we would all become horrible ultra-Hobbesian monsters if it we did not believe in some sort of punishing god figure, but I don’t see any evidence of that. Out of the religious and non-religious people in my sphere of acquaintance I would say the jerks are spread out fairly evenly. I can separate right from wrong just fine without believing in god*.
Conversely, people do pretty horrible things to each other in the name of god. That should not condemn religion per se, rather intense faith in any cause lets people abstract their actions from the restraints of human decency. All forms of idealistic/utopian thinking have the same danger. The same fanaticism that people claim to be uniquely Islamic burned Europe and Europeans through the middle ages.
As far as I can tell the evidence which drives people like D’Souza to claim that we would all become unrestrained barbarians without in-your-face religion must be internal rather than external. It’s creepy.
***
(*) Full explanation – as a determined empiricist I don’t have anything against religion per se, I just find non-falsifiable statements irrelevant. Religion and the general category of superstitious belief seem to be ineradicable aspects of the human psyche so hating them strikes me as analogous to hating people. I like the general idea just fine, even if some get on my nerves.
Jimmmm
Powerful stuff. But, really, you didn’t have to dig that deep to come up with a reason why D’Nesh D’Lovely D’Souza is creepy.
Jay C
I’m sure you can, Tim: so can I: but the main problem here isn’t with the rationals like us, but the millions upon millions of our fellow humans who have been taught – often quite forcefully – that the exact opposite is true. And will be, all too often, willing to silence (or attempt to, often forcibly) anyone who might dare to express your concept.
Personally, I think Religion:Superstition = Chemistry:Science. Most of them: without fail.
The Other Steve
Imagine VT. Now imagine something like that happening twice a day.
Welcome to Iraq.
Zifnab
But… but… but… Tim, God believes in you.
ThymeZone
Count me in as a lay (untrained) empiricist. An enthusiastic agnostic, too.
Question: Let’s say that we “rationals” have no qualms about being able to discover right and wrong, and tellin them apart, without religion and superstition to guide us.
What do we do, though, about the people who can’t do that? Don’t they exist, and doesn’t their existence support John Philip D’Souza’s view?
Just asking.
Tim F.
It’s only a paper moon…
skip
Schopenhauer said, “religion is regarded by the wise as false, by the gullible as true, and by the rulers as useful.”
Sure. I’be be happer if I believed in a Supreme Being was attending to me, just as I would go to bed happy if I believed I were going to win tomorrow’s lottery. And, needless to say, the State would like me to believe both.
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
When D’Souza pretends to believe in all that God stuff, you pounce right on him. Yet when Clinton pretends to believe in a God, you moonbats are all for it. Hypocrites.
grumpy realist
Religion: instant authority for priests. Just add water.
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
Cthulhu disproves all three of these axioms, sucker!
MNPundit
The only time I’ve run into atheists who are actually jerks is online. When you actually run into them they run the usual spectrum of people.
But then, everyone is a jerk online. So how much is that worth?
Internet + Anonymity = Jerk or as PennyArcade put it, “shitcock.”
Scruffy McSnufflepuss
Or at least, they spoof one.
Krista
Exactly – and yet, it still astonishes me when you have otherwise intelligent, well-educated, not particularly devout people who still utter things like, “I know that So-And-So is an atheist, but he’s got very strong morals and values.” Even people who SHOULD know better still seem to have this assumption that religious people are more moral.
RSA
Well, that’s how we end up with the opiate of the masses, I guess. (In my childhood, if I’d heard that phrase, I would have thought of the incense that’s sometimes used during Catholic Masses.)
demimondian
You know, I must be particularly stupid. Can somebody please explain to me how a belief in God helps one to know right from wrong?
No, seriously — it’s certainly never helped *me* know right from wrong. I can see how a belief in a fundamentally benevolent God might make one want to emulate Him out of gratitude, but that’s not providing knowledge of ethics. And don’t get me started on how I’d respond to believing in a Terrifying Sky Ghost With Thunderbolts Of Doom…
Rome Again
I don’t have anything against spirituality, per se… I have many things against religion.
Rome Again
Good question. The ones who say God told them right from wrong don’t seem to listen to him anyway. “Thou shalt not kill” is not often shouted from the rooftops.
Hyperion
driving home from work last week, i saw my first Flying Spaghetti Monster logo on a car. so yet another variant on the darwin/fish theme.
ramen
Baby Jane
If you believe in God, whatever you do can’t be wrong. Simple.
Rome Again
This does seem to be the new religion, doesn’t it? It’s like new math, everyone picks up on it eventually, or not!
Baby Jane
In the event you find you stepped on a crack that broke your mothers back, blame everyone on earth: “We are all sinners!” Don’t hesitate mix in a little Icarus: “The lord was testing my faith.” And if all that’s working for you, go for a trifecta: “The devil made me do it!” It’s kinda like the lords snake bite kit.
tBone
Throwing away meth and giving non-gay massages seems to be a popular response.
Zifnab
Actually, it helps.
Krista
Wow…you put it absolutely perfectly.
Ellison, Ellensburg, Ellers, and Lambchop
If you want to give off the vibe that you’re really OK with religion, you might not go out of your way to de-capitalize the proper names of people’s gods (see, that’s properly de-capped).
Bubblegum Tate
Actually, I think there’s one more step involved:
If you believe in God, whatever you do can’t be wrong as long as you ask God to forgive you for it.
That’s it–you don’t have to modify your behavior at all. You don’t have to take any personal responsibility. Just say, “Hey, whatever bad stuff I did since the last time I hit you up for a clean slate…can you just go ahead and forgive me for that so I can have another clean slate? Thanks, guy!”
demimondian
Except for the fact that the name “God” is *not* the name of my god; it’s a convenient circumlocution to avoid speaking or writing His name.
Baby Jane
I can take no credit (cash only). I’m just a vehicle of da Lord.
louisms
I’m always baffled when people react with incredulity on learning that a person of obviously high moral and ethical character is atheistic or agnostic. Do they not understand that some of us do good acts because that’s the right thing to do, not because some god will condemn us to eternal damnation if you don’t? What sort of ethically-challenged moral midget needs the threat of divine retaliation to refrain from rotten behavior?
I’ve long been convinced that religion is just a poor substitute for a personal sense of morality. I suppose there are those who would behave even worse were they not constrained by a fear of the fires of hell, but I suspect most can effortlessly rationalize their misdeeds. Besides, as a workmate tells me, in her religion (one of those fundamentalist sects) faith is all that counts-one can do good acts every minute of every day but that ain’t gonna get you through the pearly gates unless you “Accept Jesus Christ As Your Personal Savior”. And if you do accept him you can apparently commit all manner of misdeeds on a routine basis, then shed a few Pat Robertson crocodile tears, loudly reiterate your devotion to jeezus, and presto, your soul is as good as new.
Nylund
I agree with the above completely. I think if you need God to tell you that murder is bad, then you have problems.
Murder is BAD. Doesn’t matter if its me, God, or the cat telling you. It is simply common sense and basic human decency.
I always wonder that if the Bible didn’t have that one line, would Christians then conclude that murder is ok? (after all, God does it all the time)
I would hope not, but I wonder sometimes. The Bible didn’t say, “be nice to all people, even if they are gay” and as such, people think its ok to be mean to them.
I’m sorry but my moral character comes from the deepest parts of my soul, not an old book, and don’t tell me I don’t have any just because I can’t cite a page number in the bibliography of my moral convictions.
Wolfdaughter
I, too, do not need God to tell me what is wrong or right. Murder, stealing, etc., are wrong, because they harm fellow human beings.
But most of you are talking about fundamentalist “Christianity”. As a progressive Christian, I find this disturbing. I see no attempt in most of your postings to make the distinction.
Please don’t misunderstand me. Progressive Christians respect other people’s beliefs or lack thereof. I would never you that you MUST believe, much less that you MUST believe in a particular narrow way, in order to avoid “Hell”. I don’t actually believe in a specific place called “Hell” myself. But most of you are presenting a caricature of Christianity. Yes, there are people who call themselves Christians who do seem to fit into your descriptions. But please bear in mind that these people do NOT represent all of Christendom. Thank you.