Police are investigating the firey death of a man who burst into flames after dousing himself in petrol and then being shot with a taser gun.
Officers used the gun after the man had poured gasoline over himself.
Juan Flores Lopez, 47, died on Tuesday at a hospital in Texas.
Police initially used pepper spray when they tried to take Lopez into custody. Then they used the Taser. Some stun guns emit an electric spark when they deliver the jolt of electricity.
The Texas Rangers were also investigating whether a lighter that was on the porch could have contributed to the fire.
“We don’t know what ignited the fire,” police said.
No, we can not know for sure if the TASER ignited the gasoline soaked victim, but I for christ sakes, folks. Hopefully other law enforcement agencies will learn from this message, and not taser future people soaked in gas.
On the upside, the victim had a Hispanic name, so it wasn’t like a real American or anything. Hell, Xenophobe central (“Dying in a DUI is bad, but if the driver is a Mexican, it is WORSE!”) will probably have a post up any day now telling us why this was actually a good thing,.
Vladi G
I wouldn’t be so quick to judge, John. I hear that lighter had a run in with this guy a while ago. I wouldn’t trust that lighter one bit.
b-psycho
Nah. They’d have to demonstrate on new recruits for them to get it.
ed
How exactly do you stop a deranged person soaked in gas from destroying himself, buildings and others? I propose he be called a Republican – that label seems to bring everyone wearing it to a sputtering halt, regardless of how hot they were in the past.
Andrew
As soon as police stop tasering people who soak themselves in gas, people are just going to soak themselves in gas so they don’t get tasered, duh.
empty
No way did I see that coming.
jake
Want to bet some Freep-baser claims the fact he poured gasoline over himself proves it was an anti-war stunt gone terribly awry?
But hey, at least the people guarding the wounded soldiers and veterans at Walter Reed are not at all retarded.
Fixed.
Uh-huh. And where was this lighter made, we wonders. I bet it wasn’t a domestic lighter. OMG, THEY WANT TO KILL US!!!
jg
I think its too early to be playing the blame game.
Jon H
Scene: back at HQ
“How was I supposed to know, Chief, you said mah taser was non-lethal!”
Dave
Obviously the lighter has a book it’s trying to sell.
J. Michael Neal
Once again, the Texas Rangers blow a save situation.
grumpy realist
These clowns sound like the sort who would pour water on a fire involving lithium.
rachel
Well, since you actually have to have some knowlege of science to see why that would be a bad idea… Yeah.
jg
I know water and sodium don’t mix but what happens when lithium gets wet? Same thing?
The Other Steve
Putting water on a lithium fire is an example of the Intelligent Designer at work.
cd6
Next time they’ll just cut out the middle man and shoot him with a real gun.
Zifnab
Now, call me crazy, but what would posses a police-officer to respond with even non-lethal force to a man attempting to commit suicide? I mean, if they didn’t have tasers, what would their response have otherwise been? Beat the guy up with billy clubs?
It’s just a shame none of this got caught on tape. Rodney King would have nothing on footage like that.
Andrew
God intelligently guided the universe 14 billion years ago to enable you mix far more powerful alkali metals with water.
poppinfresh
*ZAP*
*WOOSH*
“Aw, shit. Carl… aw man, how are we going to explain this?”
“I dunno, Bill… hey, does anyone have a lighter?”
Kirk Spencer
Zifnab, a serious response:
Committing a lesser harm to prevent larger harm is considered sufficient justification. For a long time tasers were considered god-sends in law enforcement. No permanent injuries, non-lethal, almost perfect incapacitation without risk to the incapacitating officer. Take this one for example. It’s obvious the guy’s trying to commit suicide. He’s just soaked himself with gas, and there’s reason to believe he’s about to ignite it with something. Now, you could run in there and tackle him to try and take whatever it is away. He’ll fight, of course. And you’ll get covered with gasoline as well. And if he succeeds in striking the match, it’s double the fun. So, pop the taser and incapacitate him, and while he’s shuddering dash in to lock him down WITHOUT the risk.
That’s the situation. That’s why they used the taser.
The taser’s been used enough that the shine’s gone and some of the ugly is surfacing. It’s not the wonder-tool it was supposed to be – and the powers that be know it. BUT… when talking isn’t enough, it’s still almost always (almost) better than using a baton.
Something to point out – something I think is pretty important to recognize – is that the taser came after pepper spray. That means they tried to use a lower force level and it failed. See, GOOD police (meaning well trained) try to use the least harmful methods first. And painful as spray might be, it’s less so than tasers, which are lower threat than clubs, which are still lower than guns.
In the end, I suspect the officers will get off because they appear to have tried to do things the right way – followed the policies. And the policies themselves will get another look but will basically stay the same — because tasers still beat clubs and guns in the category of “minimizing risk to life and limb”.
Jimmmmm
Tazers don’t ignite crazy Messicans, people do.
A reminder from your NTA.
Zifnab
Kirk, normally I’d be with you on this, and it’s possible that they took exactly the right course of action – putting aside the whole tasers + gasoline = bad shit – when dealing with the guy. That said, after I’ve seen this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g7zlJx9u2E
it’s damn hard to hear about a police officer using a taser and convince myself he did it responsibly.
The problem with “non-lethal” weapons is that it offers cops a way to plow through too many situations with brute force and leave minimal public outcry in its wake. If these cops had tried to restrain the man by shooting him in the legs there would be an instant and deafening outcry. Tasers are no less brutal, they just happen to produce less blood and less long term damage. Cops can go shooting them off more freely, which was the express purpose of designing them. Now a cop doesn’t have to calm a guy down. He doesn’t have to use reason or persuasion. He just needs a clear shot.
The Other Steve
You are so right. We should get rid of “non-lethal” weapons, such as tear-gas, tasers, rubber bullets, etc.
And just shoot the fucker in the leg like John McClane!
Edmund Dantes
Radley Balko makes stuff like this his blog theme. It’s always worth reading over there if you are ever looking to get your blood to boil or realize that it’s not just isolated incidents.
CDB
Tazers are not a Non-Lethal weapon.
Zifnab
We need better cops, not better guns. These weapons are used irresponsibly on a regular basis. They’re cop-outs for the police departments. Taz first, ask questions later is a bad policy.
I’m not saying we should get rid of them, I just question whether every beat cop should be armed with one.
srv
I wonder if they ever thought to call the Fire Dept.
Rome Again
Gee, when I opened this thread, I originally thought it was going to be about the two rent-a-cops that were shooting a suspect on a military base and missed their shot (story was on Kos yesterday), and here I find even dumber idiots, the kind who are close enough to smell gasoline, see the man has doused it on himself and don’t have the temerity to realize that a shock such as a taser could be a problem in that situation?
How smart our law enforcement officers have turned out these days. Not very bright guys!
Punchy
I’ve heard many, many stories about how unlit lighters just happen to spontaneously light up on their own, using The Invisible Thumb Of The Lighter King, thus causing such mayhem.
Poor One Time thinks they killed him. I bet they need a raise to get over this episode.
Andrew
Tasers are a lot less brutal than getting shot anywhere.
I’d take being tased over getting shot, stabbed, sliced, hit with a baseball bat, etc. any day.
And that’s why police departments new usually refer to tasers and rubber bullets as “less-lethal.”
Dreggas
Why haven’t we heard about all the people NOT being set on fire by tazers?!?! Why do you people HATE AMERICA!?!?!
Matthew B.
Andrew: Those cesium and rubidium “explosions” on Brainiac were faked. But you can see some genuine video over here. Sodium actually reacts more impressively than the stuff higher up the periodic table.
Jake
Are you talking about Walter Reed (one RAC got angry at another and tried to shoot him) or was there an outbreak of the stoopids on military property this week?
Andrew
DAMN YOU HAMSTER!!!!!
Oh well, I can’t hold it against someone who survives a 300 mile per hour crash with his helmet smacking into the ground.
caustics
I smell a new “MythBusters” episode.
Zifnab
Haha, yeah I’ve seen these videos around. Why is there nothing cooler than seeing small pebbles of rock detonate in swimming pools?
In the long term, yes. But the instant you find yourself getting shot, stabbed, sliced, hit with a bat, or tasered, I don’t think you’ll notice much difference. If that instant happens over and over again, because the cop tasering you just happens to be a sadistic prick, I imagine you’ll begin to define that as brutal. Again, see the YouTube Video above. Explain to me how that is somehow preferable to getting beaten with clubs.
Rome Again
Yeah, that was it, I apparently didn’t get the entire story correct either, I only perused the diary that reported it, to be honest.
The Other Steve
You are so right. Just shoot the guys in the leg. It works so well in the movies. It stops the bad guy, and the worst that can happen is he walks away with a limp.
Yippee Ki-yay, mother fuck!
rachel
What are those Texas cops on anyway? You guys should check this one out:
Apparently one of the officers also claimed the bedridden man “lunged” at him, and they handcuffed him after the tasering, too.
Gee, when I grow up, I wanna play with cool toys like what teh cops in Texas get.
Rome Again
They’re on a very dangerous drug called POWER, it has a side affect called EGO!
Fledermaus
TOS – this is not an issue of tazering a fleeing suspect vs. shooting them. The fact is – and I have read many a police report – Police Tazer people at the drop of a hat. Here is the typical stiuation that I see: They confont some poor guy out of nowhere, usually for reasons that he doesn’t know and start yelling orders at him. Somtimes they yell contradictory things, other times they don’t even bother with the yelling just “suspect made a theatening movement, so I deployed my tazer” (gotta love cop-speak, right out of thwe third reich.
I saw one guy who was trying to get into his apartment when the cop pulled a gun on him and started to tell him to turn around, he did have a bottle of MD 20/20 in one of his hands and and he did what any person would do in that situation, put his hands in the air. The cop said he was going to throw the bottle at him and subsequently tazered the guy 8 times and delivered about 5 roundhouse kicks all the while the guy is apparently doing nothing.
The fact of the matter is that cops are losing effective policing skills because of the tazer. Police could learn volumes just by talking to any bouncer or jail guard about controling and defusing potential violence. Policing attracts a certain type of personality that enjoys vitising violence upon others with impunity. This doen’t apply to all cops but I see it more and more, and I place most of the blame on the myth that tazer is “non-lethal” and therefore can be used whenever, because hey, what’s the harm?
grumpy realist
I mentioned lithium rather than sodium or one of the other alkali metals because it was a 2kg chunk of lithium on fire in the case I heard about.
Usually, the alarm from the chemistry dept. goes through to a special squad at the fire department. This time something went wrong and the “normal guys” showed up complete with firehose.
Screaming secretary (who had been there for 30 years and had picked up sufficient chemistry), fireman:”look, lady, I know what I’m doing!”, and a panic-stricken dean pounding around the corner and standing in the way yelling “NOOOO!”
And I’d suggest reading a few of the Darwin awards to realize again exactly how dumb some of us evolved monkeys can be.
HyperIon
wow, why would a chem dept have a 2 kg chunk of lithium? sounds bogus to me, grumpy. gotta cite? i don’t think you can order a quantity that large from a chemical supply house.
wiki says:
so a manufacturing plant having 2 kg, ok. but a chem dept?
Zifnab
Haha! I would totally pay to see that.
Thank you. That’s my point, abet stated better.
Rome Again
When I was younger, I was told “someday you’re going to wish you paid attention in Chemistry class” and I thought “NO WAY!”
Boy, was I wrong.
The Other Steve
I think you need to go in the corner for a bit and think about what you just said.
Jimmmmm
Okay, this one’s goin’ to all you Texas Rangers out there in “away on diciplinary leave” land…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq3PVHVn0kE
Fledermaus
I think you need to realize that agressive bullying types ARE attracted to the police profession. Are all cops bullies? No of course not, and I deal with any number of good cops, I’m also sypmpathetic to the rookie cop with the quick tazer trigger finger. The bullies don’t consitiue a majority of police – but they are a significant minority in the places where I’ve worked. If you took my statement as an inditement of all cops then it’s my fault for being unclear.
The good cops can defuse a situation without immediately resorting to the tazer. That’s why I think rookie cops could learn a lot from bouncers and jail guards who, in my experience are much more experienced at defusing a situaion w/o waepons. Guy yelling and won’t shut up and won’t respond – sure taze him he deserves it. But don’t taze him six or seven times after he’s on the ground because he’s not putting his hands beind his head 5 seconds after he got tazed.
Fledermaus
I guess what I’m trying to say is that new police would be well served to talk with people who have more interaction with the people the cops are arresting.
Another thing about the agressive bully types, yeah the acadamies try to keep those people out but there is so much turn-over in policing these days that departments can’t always afford to be picky.
Chuck Butcher
You suppose they’d ever heard of a spark plug…commonly found in cars?
grumpy realist
Hyperion, it was quite some time back and who knows where that hunk originally came from–for all I know that chunk of lithium could have been dragged back from the Manhattan project, given the number of our faculty who had worked on it.