Madison Avenue charged the Pentagon close to half a million to tell them that people are less likely to assist you if you shoot them. Seriously:
In the advertising world, brand identity is everything. Volvo means safety. Colgate means clean. IPod means cool. But since the U.S. military invaded Iraq in 2003, its “show of force” brand has proved to have limited appeal to Iraqi consumers, according to a recent study commissioned by the U.S. military.
The key to boosting the image and effectiveness of U.S. military operations around the world involves “shaping” both the product and the marketplace, and then establishing a brand identity that places what you are selling in a positive light, said clinical psychologist Todd C. Helmus, the author of “Enlisting Madison Avenue: The Marketing Approach to Earning Popular Support in Theaters of Operation.” The 211-page study, for which the U.S. Joint Forces Command paid the Rand Corp. $400,000, was released this week.
***In an urban insurgency, for example, civilians can help identify enemy infiltrators and otherwise assist U.S. forces. They are less likely to help, the study says, when they become “collateral damage” in U.S. attacks, have their doors broken down or are shot at checkpoints because they do not speak English. Cultural connections — seeking out the local head man when entering a neighborhood, looking someone in the eye when offering a friendly wave — are key.
Money well spent, no doubt. Just one question- where the hell is Karen Hughes? Wasn’t she supposed to have figured this shit out a couple years ago?
Punchy
Here’s the sad thing–they could have paid Rand 4 mill, or even 40 mill, and nobody would have been surprised at all.
So Rand gets what amounts to…I’m guessing….$200,000 an hour to write this?
empty
They could have gotten that advice a whole lot cheaper and a whole lot sooner from William Lind. Also didn’t someone recently get tagged as objectively pro-terrorist because he suggested that the image of American kids kicking in doors and terrifying people was not a good idea.
Rome Again
Sounds like a mind control report, by a psychologist no less. Hmmm, how does one change the marketplace, kill off a bunch of Iraqis who aren’t buying their product?
Cassidy
The problem is that the Iraqis won’t tell us who the bad guys are. It’s very simple. Point us in the right direction and we’ll go there.
jake
Does the wank who wrote this realize the product is an army and the marketplace is an occupied country? And if the Iraqis are consumers what exactly are we expecting them to buy? The farm?
Too bad we didn’t think to ask some of our allies who’ve been doing that very thing in Iraq. It worked for some British units so there wasn’t even a language barrier. And speaking of language I wonder if this $400,000 exercise in obviousness addressed the fact that abandoning the people who do help you to whatever fate their angry countrymen might mete out creates serious damage to the “brand.”
But here’s a novel fucking idea: Don’t invade a country and then wonder why people aren’t all happy smiley to see the soldiers.
ATS
The really odd part is that the two most visible US generals right now have opposite approaches. General P. is a hand shaker. General O. is a cold fish with Iraqis. Read Cobra II or Ricks and see.
ATS
Karen Hughes is Bush’s idea of Talleyrand, just as Alberto Gonzales is his notion of Roscoe Pound.
RSA
Maybe because it’s difficult to consume bullets, bombs, and death in general? On the other hand, it would also be difficult to consume peace. It makes me think of square pegs in round holes, and the idea that if you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
ConservativelyLiberal
This whole war in Iraq was a textbook case on how to screw things up beyond belief (for only half a trillion dollars, and counting).
Collateral Damage = Real People
This is a formula that they completely ignored going in. The images of US soldiers torturing and humiliating prisoners are known to all, and I hear that they get prominent air time on Al Jazeera to this day. Add to that bombs raining down on civilian areas, images of ‘collateral damage’ and our guys kicking doors down, and you have the whole package. We look like an imperialistic power that has come to install a puppet government and milk their resources dry in the name of freeing them. Just like we have done in the past to other nations.
Our focus was on protecting the oil fields, the oil ministry and little else. We left ammo dumps, museums and civilians open to looting and worse. This has been a thrashfest since day one, and now they have to pay someone to hear that if you do stuff like this, the people will not support you?
I told my wife in 2000 that if Bush won, we would be going back into Iraq. After 9-11, I told her that Iraq was going to be the target. I did not even think of the oil, that came later. My impression was that the Repubs were pissed at Daddy Bush because he did not go all of the way and take out Saddam in the first gulf war. Now Sonny Boy would be able to ‘finish’ the job his daddy should have, and in doing so Sonny Boy would become the darling of the right. I guess that did not work out either.
We were used by this administration. The national tragedy of 9-11 was exploited to invade Iraq, and in doing so they have dishonored those who were killed by mostly Saudi terrorists. I want Osama, bagged, tagged, stuffed and mounted, but IMO, Bush does not. I think we backed off in Tora Bora because if we caught Osama before Iraq had been invaded, the public would not have been supportive of it. After all, we would have had the culprit in hand, so why invade Iraq? So we handed the job off to the locals, knowing that they would probably blow it. What other reason can a person come up for not sending our guys in to do the job? I thought it was a bs move as catching Osama at that time would have been inconvenient.
Everything that Bush has done in his adult life has been a failure. From his mediocre grades in college, to his military service, his ‘businesses’ that friends and daddy bailed him out of, to the current disaster he now leads. I guess the peter principle may need redefinition. He not only rose to the level of his own incompetence, he even exceeded that!
Too bad we are led by politicians and not statesmen. This is one sick nation we live in, and I think it is going to get worse before it will get better. If it will ever get better.
tBone
My Pretty Iraqi Pony™, with Side-stepping IED Action!
Seriously, we could turn everything around in Iraq with proper branding. Consistent fonts, colors, and logos are anathema to insurgent dirtbags. We just need to give it six months or so to start working. And we need a slogan, like the CO2 guys.
“You call it soul-crushing chaos and unpredictable, horrific violence . . . we call it life.”
Zifnab
You should work for the Pentagon. I think they’ve got a $400,000 paycheck with your name on it.
Rudi
In a related area, please forgive me, but I watched a fiction writer on Glen Beck (Brad Thor) tell how he’s applied his absurd fiction to a DHS “Red Cell”program”. DHS paid this clown and other creative thinkers to war game on terror threats “outside the box”, which he incorporates into Wingnut fiction and receives a consulting fee. He talked about a conflated school attack by Islamo-Stooges in the US. He took the Russian/Chetnian school situation and came up with an absurd fictional account of a similar attack in the US. The small government conservatives are wasting tax dollars on this crap so that former PBS travel show host can hawk his crazy novels on Glen Beck.
Dave
Yeah because they are fucking dead. What brain trust hired Rand to tell us this? I want my money back.
Dave
That’s because there are no bad guys you dolt, it’s a civil war. It has been a civil war, it will be a civil war long after we are gone.
Cassidy
Your mastery of ME tribal politics is astounding. [/snark]
The ones trying to kill American Soldiers aren’t “bad guys”? Glad to know you’re on record for killing American troops.
rachel
No. When foreign troops occupy your country without your leaders having done anything to harm their country, they deserve killing. It doesn’t matter where they’re from.
This has been another example of simple anspers to stupid questions.
HunterBlackLuna
So, you mean that looking like a vile foreign occupying force that will shoot you and make your corpses into degrading nude pyramids over a shredded, piss-stained copy of your holy book ISN’T good PR? Oh, man, the Pres will be shocked to hear this one. I’m sure we’ll have another ‘course change’ soon.
Andrew
The Tard Blog is this way. You’ll do well there.
r€nato
we could have avoided all this shit if someone had just thought to crack open a history book, oh, say, four or five years ago. You know, review the relatively recent history of imperialism and occupation by European colonial powers.
Oh, wait a minute. We’re talking about neo-conservatives, and one of the ‘strengths’ of neo-conservatism is to cling tightly to your ideology, ignore ‘reality’ while trying to create new realities, and get pissy with anyone who doesn’t clap loudly enough and join you in your delusions.
ConservativelyLiberal
As bad a Bush has been, I wonder what some supporters of this ‘war’ would do if the shoe was on the other foot. If we did not have nuclear weapons, and were invaded by a ‘coalition’ of nations to depose our despicable leader. If they treated us like we have treated the Iraqis.
Somehow, I have the impression that these same people who are so gung-ho about Iraq now would be the same ones who would be killing those who invaded us to save us from our despicable leader.
Interesting thought anyway…
Johnny Pez
The problem is that the Iraqis won’t tell us who the bad guys are. It’s very simple. Point us in the right direction and we’ll go there.
Sure thing. The Bad Guys are a bunch of warmongering fascists occupying a big white house in the District of Columbia. Go get ’em, tiger.
Cassidy
Wow John and Tim…you really do have a cesspool here. Calling for the killing of American Soldiers? Yeah, they aren’t far left here.
Wilfred
You killed them, asshole, you and your kind. I’ll let you in on a little secret. You know all those comments on right-wing blogs about how Islam is a false religion and how Muslims need to be killed, or put into some kind internment camp, or some other nonsense? Lots of that ends up translated into Arabic and in Iraqi newspapers and blogs. In fact, it is one of the major propaganda weapons of the extremists. Think about it. If this is what the supporters of the ‘liberation’ of Iraq really think about Arab/Muslim culture then maybe the extremists are right. That’s one of the reasons the Iraqis won’t talk to Americans.
Every day. more and more Iraqis understand the significance of being despised by an occupying Army, as reflected in the contempt you and your kind have always shown towards Arabs and Muslims. Many, many soldiers have been killed because of this as shopkeepers, housewives, cab drivers kept their mouths shut, knowing how you and your kind really think. You people have got lots of blood on your hands.
You should round up some like-minded thinkers and go off to Iraq and fight. Independently, I mean, like the jihadi do. You can get a taxi from Amman and be in Baghdad in 16 hours, depending on checkpoints. In the meantime, go fuck yourself.
ConservativelyLiberal
My Sports Announcer Voice:
“And Wilfred hits it out of the park! Hell, it was knocked clear out of the state!!”
Speaking of cesspools Wilfred, your pointing to right wing blogs as offering materials that the muslims read is on target. These cesspools of the right decry that the lefties feed the ‘enemy’ because of their wanting to surrender yet ignore that their hatred of muslims is more likely to feed muslim anger and haterd towards us.
But that is typical of the right these days, it is everyone elses fault, never theirs. They are perfect and never make mistakes because Jeebus is on their side. Heck, God talks to our fearless leader and whispers sweet nothings into his empty head.
Actually, I heard that
CheneySatan had a receiver planted in Sonny Boy’s ear, and he is the one doing the whispering…chopper
that’s ironic coming from the guy who said its as simple as having the iraqis ‘tell us who the bad guys are’.
guess what, it isn’t that simple. it isn’t ‘good guys’ and ‘bad guys’. this is iraq, not a spaghetti western.
most every group in iraq is jockeying for power and property against someone else and has no beef at all using us or anyone else to get it. any iraqi who is a ‘good guy’ can turn into a ‘bad guy’ literally overnight based on the needs of the american apparatus there, and vice versa.
most of the ‘good guys’ are also ‘bad guys’. that’s what happens when you start a civil war in the land of the sahel.
chopper
wow, you can make that opinion from two posters? yeah, you’re not full of sweeping generalizations at all, are you. long as it fits your personal stereotypes, i guess.
ran
it’s been estimated that our “brave freedom fighters” in Iraq and Afghanistan fire 250,000 bullets per insurgent killed. so how many innocent civilians do they kill with the other 249,999 bullets? and that’s not even going into all the indiscriminate bombing from the air in densely populated urban areas which is increasing dramatically now. but yet for all that ruthlessness, the insurgency just keeps getting stronger. ie, the US military creates enemies using overwhelming force far faster than it can kill them.
this is an illegal and immoral and brutal occupation in a war started on a pack of lies against a country that was no threat to us whatsoever. it has no legitimacy. end it NOW.
ran
so Cassidy. let’s say China invaded the US using as a pretext a bunch of trumped up bullshit that didn’t pass the laugh test and proceeded to run a brutal occupation of this country – setting up a puppet government, torture dungeons, walling off neighborhoods that refuse to get with the program, leveling any buildings from which bullets are fired, and forcing new laws which give them first dibs on our natural resources down our throat.
would we be allowed to fight back or would we just need to bow down before our new Chinese masters?
CharleyCarp
where the hell is Karen Hughes?
Ms. Hughes’ job is keeping the folks in Red States on the bus and with the program. (You thought ‘public diplomacy’ was about someone else? Why?) It’s a tough job, but she’s doing the best she can.
Cassidy
Wilfred– I’ll let you in on a little secret. Everytime you post some completely un-American crap or wish for the death of a Soldier, the enemy uses it as propaganda. How does it feel to be a murderer?
Does this only count for people who agree with you. I just used the same logic Wilfred did, so I accept your accolades. lol
Tim F.
Dude, you just described the fundamental principle of counterinsurgent war. As the occupiers, our primary weapon is highly-trained kids with fantastically expensive equipment. The other guys’ main weapon is that we don’t know who or where they are, with an assist from Saddam’s vast, unguarded weapons depots. If we had this mystical superknowledge of who and where they all are then we wouldn’t have to fight them. Lacking the cover of anonymity they’d give up as surely as if we made all of their AK47’s magically disappear.
Naturally you want superknowledge. Similarly, if you fought the Russkis you’d want their tanks. The fundamental point of John’s post is that knowledge, via local trust, doesn’t come to us by some god-given right. We have to earn it. Since we didn’t do that, we armed the insurgents as surely as if we’d shipped tanks to Russia. I can’t say that the insurgency would never have existed without our help, it certainly would, but it strengthened and multiplied as a direct result of the cover that we provided it by alienating the Iraqi population.
demimondian
And Cassidy throws down his mask, and shows why we “pile on” him. Lookie, boys and girls, it’s the “questioning the principles behind the war is stabbing the troops in the back” meme? Where have we seen that before? Oh, yeah, for the last many years.
You know, Tim, you might do well to trust the wisdom of your commentariat when they go after someone.
Punchy
Holy fucking shit that site is funny. Just the homepage pic had me spitting out food.
Punchy
I have it on good intel that it actually takes 250K bullets to kill an insurgent. Hardy fuckers, the lot of ’em. Apparently Allah has a better patent than Uncle Sam on bulletproof vests.
Cassidy
It’s not mystical knowledge. You seem to keep forgetting that I’ve done the walking around the neighborhood, drinking chai with the headman. I’ve been on humanitarian medical missions where I’ve emptied my medical supplies treating civilians (until some asshole started sniping at us). We’ve tried, over and over, and over again. And yet, they still refuse to become a part of building their own country. I don’t want “superknowledge”. I want the people who live their top grow some goddamn backbone and help us rid their country of the insurgents, so we can get the fuck home with as little life lost as possible.
Nah…I’d take our tanks any day of the week. Better armor, more sophisticated targeting systems, better munitions and much better trained crews.
I didn’t say that either. But in your collective race to condemn everything that revolves around the war, to include it’s commanders and troops, you’re forgetting one very important principle: The general at the top doesn’t win or lose this war. This war is being fought in small units and it’s the individual squads and platoons and companies and battalions that are making the difference. I’m not gonna blow smoke up anyone’s ass about building schools and whatnot. And I’ve said before I never agreed with this war. But, at the small unit level, we have been doing the things to try and help the communities. But, as I’ve said before, the laziness inherent int heir culture, leads them to do nothing but sit back and wait for us to do everything for them. They aren’t proactive about fixing their own country. So If they aren’t willing to think outside their own slefishness…fuck’em. They can kill themselves all they want if they like.
jake
Or even better, when some cretin said “Hey! Let’s trick the American people into supporting a war by lying to them!” the other people in the room could have, I don’t know, kicked him in the nuts and driven him from their presence. But that would require that the other people in the room not be … what’s the phrase I’m looking for? Oh yes, amoral bastards.
chopper
well, if you have indeed seen as much of iraq as you claim, then you of all people should know that it isn’t that simple. many iraqis are using the backdrop of civil war for their own tribal advantages. someone else sowing discord often can be made beneficial if you wish to use it as cover for your own means.
it isn’t as simple as ‘good-guy iraqis’ vs ‘the evil insurgents’. there are foreign insurgents trying to screw with the us military, there are sunni insurgents trying to screw with shia, there are shia insurgents screwing with sunni, there are kurds screwing with turkey, and innumerable scores being settled neighborhood by neighborhood (sometimes by fooling US military into doing their own bidding). and there are people who sit by and watch that happen and do nothing, because the foriegn, sunni, shia, kurdish, whatever insurgents are doing what they do on their behalf. many sunnis are behind sunni insurgents because they figure its the only way to keep some kind of control. many shia are behind shia insurgents because they see their own political advantage.
asking why iraqi civvies don’t help turn in their own respective insurgents is like the british whining about how regular irish republicans don’t turn in all the IRA they know about.
a multi-party civil war in a socio-political landscape as machiavellian as iraq can’t be boiled down into such simplistic platitudes as that.
Cassidy
You give them way too much credit. It’s a tribal culture at its root: the strong are in charge and the weak go along with their decisions.
Yes it is. It’s a very simple outlook. There are those who want Iraq to grow and become its own strong and independent country. Personally, I think their tribal roots will always cause a bit of authoritarianism, but that’s just me. And then there are those who want the country to continue to be destabilized, for whatever reason. Their individual motivations are immaterial. The end state for them is the same and contrary to the wants of the American Soldiers and the American people. You do want Iraq to become its own stable country right?
I’m not asking why. I already know why.
Wilfred
All part of the white man’s burden, Cassidy , old sport. Really, this has to be spoof.
Ah, the lazy wog meme.
Look Rudyard, if you’ve spent any time with Arabs you’ll what urubu means. No Arab accepts the occupation of his country, whatever the intentions or motivations of the occupier.
Cassidy
You obviously haven’t either.
Wilfred
Only a great deal of my adult life. You’re a spoof.
Tim F.
You act like we have absolutely no responsibility for how local Iraqis regard us. Actually, your perspective is even more limited than that. You want credit for everything that America has done right – drinking tea, medical aid, tossing MREs from convoys. You could have also mentioned painting schools and rebuilding police academies if those programs hadn’t already gone tits up. Yet so far you have never once acknowledged that America’s actions can also cause the locals to have a negative view of us.
That position is logically incoherent. If we can make them friendlier by treating them well we can make them unfriendlier by treating them poorly. Do me a small favor and acknowledge this minor point.
…And you think that anybody who disagrees with you is crazy. Your worldview is just as manichean and non-credible as the people against whom you rail. I disagree with people who piss on you for petty reasons in part because the profound reasons are more than enough.
Tim F.
I’d ignore the sidestep if I had the impression that you got my point.
chopper
actually, you don’t give them enough credit. your attitude, that it really is that simple, is the same one that got us in the mess we’re in right now. flowers and candy and all that.
yes, and many of those want a strong *shia* country, or a strong *sunni* country etc etc. you think the shia majority and the sunni minority are interested in sharing power?
demimondian
I see that Cassidy continues to bless us with what he believes to be his wisdom. I can only pray that he will continue to drag us poor, unenlightened American-murderers into the light of truth and freedom.
Tell me, O Cassidy, O thou whose wisdom is like unto the sun, whose very words reflect his brilliance with such accuracy that they are painful to read, what, exactly, is the difference between the Baathists who want Iraq to be a self-supporting and secure country, and the Mahdi Army, who also want Iraq to be a self-supporting and secure country? I don’t quite see why they fight with one another when they both want the same thing? Surely you, in your wisdom, can explain to a poor, unenlightened person such as my humble self why they are so…confused?
Rome Again
No, it sounds to me like he thinks they want to become an American democracy and they should accept all the help (guns/ammunition/death/destruction/rape/pillaging) that we offer them and learn from our example.
Cassidy
The Sunni/ Shia conflict is far older than anything we’ve done.
Tim–I don’t disagree with your point. What you’re failing to see is a downward spiral of American Soldiers doing what they do best (wage war) after trying things the nice way to get results. IF, the Iraqi people would help us, then we wouldn’t have progressed to the point of kicking in every door in a 100m radius.
Iraq will never have an American democracy. As I mentioned earlier, the tribal roots are too strong to get away from some sort of authoritarianism.
My attitude bypasses all the mealy-mouthed BS that civilians like to comfortably debate in the confines of their air conditioning. It boils down to those who want Iraq to be successful and those who do not.
Rome Again
Oh yeah, American style DEMOCRACY will solve that! NOT!
Cassidy
I never said that.
bpower
What? You mean people dont like that? Must be anti-Americanism.
Rome Again
Then why do you support this war? What do you hope it will accomplish if the Sunni/Shia question was never intended to be solved by our intervention? You are admitting that no matter what we ever did in Iraq, there would still be discord between these two tribes? How does that create the peace and stabilization that we were supposed to accomplish? Bush stated he wanted to bring DEMOCRACY to Iraq, is that not why soldiers are fighting there now?
Cassidy
I never said I supported this war. On multiple occasions, I’ve said I disagreed with it. But, my personal feelings don’t matter. My oaths and my duty come first. That is the life I’ve chosen to lead. As part of a warrior culture, there are principles I adhere to that go beyond my personal wants and feelings.
The Soldiers don’t fight for things like that. I’ve said before you’re not comprehending the military culture and the people who make it up. It’s a very small percentage that does anything for altruistic reason; about as small as those who willfully break the law and commit war crimes. Your average Soldier thinks in much simpler terms of the people around them. The troops around us are our family. They are my brothers and sisters, sharing an experience and level of horror that only we get. We don’t fight for you, or Bush, or the Iraqi people, or anyone other than the men and women to our left and right. All that bringing Democracy crap is something that the politicians came up with as part of their ever changing list of justifications. As Soldiers, though, that isn’t our concern. We have a mission; we accomplish the mission. That’s it. As long as the orders issued aren’t unlawful, then we have taken an oath to follow them.
As for the Sunnni/Shia conflict: The orchestrator(s) of this war never intended to solve that issue. I believe they thought it would be a non-issue. But, that’s outside my lane. I work with what I got. I can’t help it if incompetents are handed the keys to the car (twice). I voted for Gore and Kerry. I did my part on that front.
Cassidy
That could be a problem. Fortunately, we put up signs in Arabic as well.
Rome Again
Yeah, don’t have the guts to try to change the warrior culture, just do what you can to feel good about your part in it.
I don’t believe in the warrior culture, and your activity is an affront to what could be, if others would just see the futility in “the warrior culture”.
Peace is NOT achieved by war, it is only somewhat contrived for short purpose, until the time that the anguish of the past is brought back out to start the war machine up all over again.
If our government and military are one day sunk and we cannot defend our country, you can be damned sure the Japanese will remember Nagasaki and Hiroshima and come back to try again. The only thing war truly creates is enemies, and dollars in the pockets of military industrialists.
Take your “warrior culture” and shove it up your ass. It doesn’t help this world, or any of the human family in the least.
Tsulagi
Tim,
Regarding the Iraqi population, you and a few others have made some valid points about their role or non role in the insurgency, and reasons why they would or wouldn’t aid our mission. Cassidy has a poor attitude, but on balance I agree with him. And a major reason why I thought Iraq was done a few years ago.
Why are the Kurdish provinces about as “peaceful” as any place you get in the ME? Yes, they are more homogeneous than the southern provinces, but they also have Arab Sunni and Shia there along with ethnic Turks. The reason is those provinces have government and forces dedicated to the security and advancement of those areas. The local population too. When that is challenged, if the Peshmerga aren’t already on it, the locals will point the Pesh in the right direction. Then they take care of the problem immediately.
If you’ve ever lived or worked in 3rd world and even 2nd world non-western countries, one thing that typically amazes a westerner is that everyone will know your story within hours if it’s a small town; maybe a week if it’s a large city. When you arrived, what you’re doing or not doing. You’re the entertainment of the moment. They’ll know which stores you shop at, what you buy, and probably even how often you scratch your butt. That goes for any outsider, even one who looks and talks a lot like them.
So when Cassidy expresses some anger about the locals not helping us provide for their own security, I hear him. I’ve heard that sentiment from a number of people. If you’re trying to keep one of your family alive who’s just lost his legs when an IED planted in the roadway exploded, and you glance at some now watching this through nearby windows, you’d have to out-Gandhi Gandhi not to be pissed. They knew it was there. And before any simpleton thinks I’d say that would excuse a Haditha, light up your second brain cell.
Yes, the locals who could help us and themselves have good reason to be afraid. Some of their neighbors collaborating with us have disappeared later to be found floating down the Tigris. Unlike Cassidy, though, I won’t say the Iraqis are lazy or stupid. They’ve simply made their decision. On your feet or on your knees. Their country, their choice.
My opinion is influenced by a man who was far smarter than I from his experiences. My grandfather. He enlisted in the Army during the “good” war when he was 17. Didn’t get his G.E.D. until some time after WW II. Made the military his career. Fought and served during WW II, Korea, and Vietnam. Retired as a CSM. He never got a degree, but he was one of the most intelligent and educated people I’ve ever known. And I have known and know a few with PhDs.
From his perspective, the single most important factor in the outcomes of the three wars he fought was the local population. The guy could talk for weeks about hundreds of significant factors that contributed to and shaped the outcomes. Logistics, strategy, tactics, civilian leadership, etc., but still the support from the people in those countries and their actions was key to him.
I could write plenty of examples he gave to back up his point. Even of the supposedly “surrender monkey” French stepping up to the plate. But this comment is already way too long. He did say within four months of being in Vietnam, he knew it wasn’t going to end well.
Apparently JFK also had the same thought. I read a Time article a couple of weeks ago about JFK and one thing stood out for me. JFK had capped our forces at 16k in Vietnam. According to Schlesinger and McNamara, he had no intention of escalating beyond that. In fact, when/if he were reelected, he planned to withdraw those advisors. The reason: He didn’t believe the South Vietnamese leaders nor people would fight for or support a representative form of government and their freedom. Given that, he thought the action would fail. He was proven right.
You could say the same about Iraq. Their country, their call. They’re adults.
Before anyone pisses or moans about the length of this comment or how it rambled, you didn’t have to read it. You could have watched a rerun of The Wire.
Cassidy, you need an attitude adjustment. The people here are not your enemies.
From some of the others, I need a shower after the smell of some of their bullshit flung Cassidy’s way.
Cassidy
I don’t think they are my enemies, per se. But they are enablers and that’s just as bad. As for the attitude…you get shot at enough times and see enough dead and maimed Soldiers, and your compassion tends to dry up.
Punchy
The chicken-egg argument.
Rome Again
So you admit you have no compassion. Perhaps you would understand my position much better if you looked at it from the viewpoint of someone who feels we invaded a country without provocation and killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians.
Little green plastic toy soldiers have really ruined the American male psyche. I expected better from you Tsulagi. Oh well, I guess I can walk away with the knowledge that we have agreed a lot more often than we have disagreed.
Wilfred
You’re just repeating the Bushco idea that the insurgency is all al-qaida all the time. Where is the differentiation between Iraqi resistance to American occupation and supposedly foreign fighters, ‘terrorists’ whose main actions are against the Iraqis themselves?
The Arabs have a saying: Better the tyranny of the believer than the justice of the infidel. Until you understand that, plus the last 80+ years of the modern Arab nationalist movement, comments like “Why don’t they help us” just reveal the continued disinterest in understanding anything about Arab history or culture.
Correct, anything else is neo-colonialism.
Cassidy
Rome, I understand your position perfectly fine. I just don’t agree with it. My experience and the experience of countless Soldiers says otherwise.
And don’t pretend to know what I’ve done and why I’ve done it. I’ve done more to help the Iraqi people, despite my feelings for them, than you have behind your keyboard.
Wilfred, I’ve spent countless hours talking to Iraqis and our very educated interpreters, in an attempt to understand their culture. I’ve never deployed without spending my personal time reading so I can understand what I’m dealing with.
ThymeZone
Wake up, dude. You’ve got 12-24 full time spooftrolls posting here on a daily basis. Cassidy is a troll.
We love you, but please try to pay attention. All is not what it seems here, nor has it been for about 3 years now.
No, I’m not making the 12-24 number up. Trust me.
Don’t feed John’s new churnmeister.
Rome Again
Ra-ra, America can never be wrong! Boy is your fall going to be hard one day. We are NOT always the greatest nation in the world, and we are not always right either.
What part of I’m too old to go to Iraq do you have a problem with? Really, as I’ve said before, I cannot go because of my age, so what is your problem with that? Would you like a bunch of 45 year old women going over to fight that war for you? I take an interest in this war, I guess you think it better if I don’t. You probably would be happier if I didn’t vote either. You want me to be ignorant so your commander’s goals can be attained without opposition.
Yes, obviously you understand them so well that you make sweeping generalizations that none of them are innocent. You said “Good luck finding one” (an innocent Iraqi) and then you sit here and say you took an interest to understand them? You didn’t take an interest in understanding them, you took an interest in understanding the reasons why they should be opposed only, obviously.
Now, I’ve had my fun and I am going to take TZ’s advice and stop feeding the troll as well.
Cassidy
Red Cross…various aid organizations. Put your actions where your “compassion” is.
Rome Again
Liebertroll, I’m an office admin, I would make a lousy nurse. That doesn’t mean I have no compassion, it just means I would make a lousy nurse. Furthermore, I would never go volunteer for an organization named “Red Cross” as I do not fall for any symbolism, but especially bloody symbolism of a Christian nature.
Now, fuck off very much. I’m completely done with you.
Cassidy
Aid organizations need admin personnel too.
Cassidy
Wow…this just says so much. Tim? C’mon now, she’s proving me right.
Rome Again
and if I can find one I believe in and the opportunity presents itself, I will do my part. Goodbye.
Rome Again
Tim, this Lieber-troll bozo is screaming to you now because they’ve been poisoned into believing that only patriotic Christian professing people are the right kind of people to have in America, and hence are the only kind of people who should blog here. Please don’t concern yourself with this. It’s a stupid argument to make. The Lieber-troll is a closed-minded individual, nothing more.
Cassidy
Hehehe you know what…I’m finally tired of your pedantic bullshit. I tell you what:
When you’ve passed out food and medical supplies to poor Iraqis…you can criticize me.
When you’ve sat in their homes and drink tea with them and played with their kids…you can criticize me.
When you’ve stood guard outside a school because the last car bomb those bastards set off was at school, killing many children…you can criticize me.
When you’ve torn the body armor off a man, attached to a few layers of skin because it melted to his body along with his Under Armor shirt…you can criticize me.
When you’ve provided medical treatment to a screaming man, crying that his wife is gonna leave him because his face is burned up…you can criticize me.
You want to talk about kids. I got one for you. he was 20 years old. A backwoods kid from Kentucky. No wife, no kids, just a goofy smile and a nice thing to say about everyone. He died in the helicopter on the way to the hospital. You wanna know how he died? They buried 2000 lbs of explosives in the road and waited for our tanks to roll through. They command detonated it. You want to talk about more kids? The loader, who died instantly, had a newborn son. Or how about my friend who died in the 2nd tank whose armor was breached. he left behind a young son. Where is your “compassion” now? The TC is still brain damaged and lost his leg and forearm. Ask John what it takes to destroy a tank.
When you’ve treated battlefield wounds on Iraqi soldiers caught in an ambush…you can criticize me.
I’ve been places and seen things that even God wants nothing to do with. When you’ve come home and had to deal with the nightmares and panic attacks afterward…you can criticize me.
When you’ve actually spent any time other than bitching and moaning at you keyboard…you can criticize me. So what you’re gonna vote? The Iraqis have done that too. So far your vote ain’t worth the paper it’s written on.
When you’ve given out all the medicine you’ve got to poor Iraqis who’ve never seen a doctor…you can criticize me.
When you’ve rescued a teenage girl from having her ass beat because she dared to step outside…you can criticize me.
When you’ve provided medical treatment to a captured insurgent because he went into respiratory distress after being captured…you can criticize me.
Until you actually grow a backbone and do something that involves stepping outside your comfortable, air conditioned life, to actually help those people you feel so much “compassion” for, I strongly suggest you keep your ignorant opinions to yourself. At the moment, you’re just another ignorant American who thinks you know something, when in all reality, you have no clue what you’re talking about. You have no idea what those people are like. You have no idea what they are and are not doing to rebuild their country.
You don’t have a fuckin’ clue.
Cassidy
I’m not a practicing Christian, dear. Way off the mark.
TenguPhule
Shorter Cassidy:
“Those ungrateful Iraqis don’t want to help us even though we keep killing them in job lots. Ungrateful Bastards!”
TenguPhule
Until you actually grow a backbone and do something that involves stepping outside your comfortable, air conditioned life, to actually help those people you feel so much “compassion” for, I strongly suggest you keep your ignorant opinions to yourself.
Sweet farking return of the Irony of the Day.
Cassidy
It’s hard to condense if you don’t actually read. A scholar, you are not.
Cassidy
You really aren’t much on reading comprehension, are you? I knew the public school system was a joke, but this is even worse than I thought.
TenguPhule
Corrected.
Because the ‘bad’ guys in Iraq depends on who you ask.
The Shia think its the Sunni and Kurds.
The Sunni think its the Kurds and Shia.
The Kurds think its the Sunni and Shia.
And the only thing most of them can agree on is that the Americans are pissing everyone off.
Need a direction for the problem in Iraq? Look in the mirror.
TenguPhule
If the military had imposed order on the beginning, maybe things wouldn’t be so bad now.
If Iraqis who tried to help the US were not left to die by VISA restrictions, maybe they wouldn’t be so afraid for their lives.
If those military depots had been secured, maybe the guerillas wouldn’t have so many ways to blow up soldiers.
And maybe, just maybe if Americans hadn’t tortured and murdered who knows how many Iraqis in Abu and elsewhere, they’d be more willing to help.
Enjoy the fruits of Bush’s seeding of Iraq.
ConservativelyLiberal
While Cassidy says some things that may make sense, in their own twisted way, he says too many other things that add up to the bs we have been getting spoon fed daily since this mess started. I think they call the talking points. Cassidy may be sincere in what he says, but my bs detector keeps squawking. He likes to hit people for reactions, and that is trollish behavior, IMO.
I believe that 99% of our troops are decent, honorable people, and I do appreciate that they are willing to lay their lives on the line when called. That is not something to take lightly, or for granted. many members of my family have served, and I would have gone into the Air Force but I have health problems that prevented that. So it is not that I did not want to serve, and that is just the way it is. But my family members who have served all agree that this is one major mess that is totally fubar.
The problem is that there are those in the 1% range that are making a mess out of things. Add to that the corrupt and/or incompetent leaders and you get the mess our men and women in our armed services are having to deal with today. As they say, it only takes one bad apple to spoil the barrel.
I do not want to see our service personnel killed and maimed, but that is out of my hands. Cassidy feels that we civilians ought to stay out of it and let the military handle it. Problem is, last time I checked, we are a civilian led government. And our military answers to us, not us to them. What Cassidy wants is what you get when you live under a military dictatorship.
When a government like ours goes to war, politics will play a large role in what happens and that is just the way it is. We do not let the dogs of war loose to do what they want, and if we did then MacArthur would have nuked China long ago. I wonder if Cassidy would have agreed with us doing that, or was Truman right in canning MacArthur for trying to go off on his own tangent?
Iraq was poorly planned, poorly executed, and it is not the fault of our men and women over there, it is the fault of their leadership and our politicians. Thus we are in the mess we are today. Now if Cassidy really was not for the war but was only doing his job in Iraq, I would think that after coming home he would be singing a different tune as so many other soldiers are. Nope, he is talking the talk as if he is still over there. Now he may call it backing up his military family, but I do not see it that way.
You know what you call someone who keeps doing the same thing and expecting different results? Yup…
Now we are being told that the military has a leader that will do it right and get the job done. We have been told this several times over the past few years and yet it has not happened. What will be the excuse after this effort fails? I would like to see it not fail, but the statistics are not backing that up.
Will Cassidy go to the families of the soldiers who are killed in this latest ‘surge’ and personally console them? Maybe explain that he thought they would pull it off this time, and he is partially responsible for the waste of life? I doubt it.
Oh, and I do not have air conditioning… ;)
chopper
of course it is. and it will be around long after we’re gone. it’s one of those things that complicates matters far more than your simplistic ‘good-guy/bad-guy’ pablum.
but as iraq’s tribal roots show, it isn’t one camp of people who want iraq to be one kind of success and one group that wants it to fail. each group has its own definition of a ‘successful iraq’ which is at loggerheads with everyone elses’. the type of successful iraq the shia want is the type of failed iraq the sunni don’t want.
dog heaven is cat hell, as it were.
Punchy
One need not have a medical degree to know that you dont perform surgery with some BBQ tongs and a Swiss Army knife. I need not consume meth to understand it will mess with my brain and lead to psychosis.
So, yeah, many of us have fuckin’ clues, with or without a vacation in Baghdad Heights.
Faux News
Sorry I’m late to this thread, but has anyone considered that all we need is a mission statement and a powerpoint slide presentation to solve “the Iraqi Consumer Problem” we currently have?
Cassidy
You can’t even pretend to know what it’s like over there while having no experience.
jenniebee
Dear fucking Lord – 400K for that? I picked up a copy of Henry V for $5.95, got the same thing in Act III:
Punchy
Nice logic. I bet you are unable to evaluate new cars, because you aren’t a car salesman or mechanic. I see you’re unable to choose good food off a menu, being that you’re not personally cooking it. You can’t even pretend to know what the temperature on Mount Everest it while having no experience on the summit.
Dumbest fucking argument ever.
HunterBlackLuna
Oh, I have to go to the hospital. I leapt onto my stove and gave it a hug, while all the burners were on. After all, I don’t have much cooking experience, how could I be EXPECTED to know that the flames were going to leave me with first-degree burns along the entire front of my body?
Cassidy
Choosing a car and going to war are significant;y different issues adn you know that. Being purposely obtuse for the sake of argument does nothing to help “your side”.
Since you are such a expert, tell me, What is it like to be on a battlefield? What is it like to carry Soldiers onto a waiting helicopter for MEDEVAC? What is it like to get mortared every day? What is it like to get shot at? What is it like to see a vehicle erupt into a fireball? What is it like to run 50M without cover to wounded casualties?
Go ahead, I’ll be waiting.
Cassidy
Hmmm…leaping onto a burning stove…I think that palces yourself in the “window licker” category. Darwinism at its best.
And you should learn to cook. There are very few skills more important than the ones necessary to take care of yourself.
LLeo
Cassidy,
The bottom line is that we are American Citizens. We are not just allowed to make judgments about the behavior of our government, we are compelled to. Not having combat experience, does not disqualify anyone from making judgments about the conduct of this War, especially in the context of War as a political act.
I agree with you that the Iraqis are not acting (generally) as a part of the solution. But we are talking about a “solution” from our perspective. Our solution is a nice reasonably stable, reasonably humane country. I have personally concluded that this outcome is not gonna happen for precisely the reason you have argued for: the Iraqis are not participating in the solution.
Given that I don’t believe the Iraqis are going to help us or themselves build a workable government, I believe we (the US) should leave Iraq and try to keep the inevitable firestorm from spreading to far. It’ll be hard, we might not succeed, but it is the lesser of two evils. The other evil being grinding up our soldiers in a task Sisyphus wouldn’t envy.
Cassidy
I have no problem with that. I wish more American citizens were involved in the first palce, then maybe none of this would have happenned. What I’ve always had a problem with, though, is the complete lack of understanding of military culture and constant denouncement of those who serve. It is a completely different lifestyle, that if you’re not a part of, you won’t get it. Our principles are different. Our daily life is differnt. And our long term view is vastly different. But it doesn’t stop people from making half-assed statements about something they have no clue about. That’s not speaking up.
And I’m sorry, call it elitist if you will, but making a judgement about a war that you haven’t been a part of is the height of folly. Most of the people here have no idea what really happens on the ground. Most of what goes on there, actually happens outside the political discussions, but the narrow-minded will enver see that. To them, it’s all connected.
I agree with this. As has been pointed out a few times, different groups consider different outcomes a success. But, speaking from the viewpoint an Active Duty Soldier, our end state is simple: Do what must be done to come home and stay home. All this right or wrong debate has nothing to do with us. It’s a mission. We complete the mission. We come home. It’s that simple.
I’m all for this. Mine is slightly more biased, in that they can whack each other ’til their little hearts are content. All I care about is preventing Soldiers deaths. Ideally, that means not beig there at all. As that isn’t a realistic option, at the moment, it means doing what is necessary to counteract the insurgency before they can harm us.
Cassidy
*Us as in Soldiers on the ground…not that fight them there so we don’t have to here crap.
LLeo
Why is leaving (plan to be determined by the JCS, not congress) not a realistic option?
BTW, I would suggest that you have not connected the dots between “making a judgment about a war” and “that you haven’t been a part of is the height of folly”. Why does not having the personal experience of day to day military occupation activities, preclude one from having sufficient credibility to judge a War.
I’d further suggest, that while you feel that non-combatants don’t “get it” at a gut level, like a combatant might, this is the United States of America and we are Citizens. We Citizens must make judgments about the War our country is engaged in. This is the way it has to be in a Democracy. So your angst or elitism about the 99.9% of your fellow Citizens judging a War you have personally participated in, is Irrelevant and quite simply dangerous thinking. Remember your Oath is to the Constitution of the United States of America. That means us non-combatants combined with combatants like yourself must judge together as Citizens how this War should be conducted.
ConservativelyLiberal
What is being done in Iraq is not by the military, for the military. It is being done in OUR name, the people of the United States. For that reason, I have the RIGHT to speak up and disagree if I so desire, the same as any other citizen. I will not remain silent because someone in the military says I should. If we had been attacked by Iraq, I would feel otherwise. But this is an elective war that was forced down our throats, not one that born out of necessity.
Iraq is not a defensive war, it is offensive (and in more ways than the obvious). In fact, based on this action (and others in the past), I propose that the Department of Defense be renamed to what it was in WWII, the U.S. War Department.
I know, Department of Defense is supposed to give me the warm fuzzies but the name change was just so much propaganda. It is war, and the War Department is appropriate. DoD makes it sound like war is forced on us, like we had no alternative as we were attacked and had to respond to save ourselves. That is what defensive means, does it not?
The is still the good ol’ US of A, and we the people have the right to say what we feel we need to. Calling us unpatriotic, traitors, enemy sympathisers or whatever the latest talking point is will not shut us up. Just as some wish to speak up and support the war, others have the right to say otherwise.
Get used to it…
Cassidy
I haven’t called you any of those things. I have called you all ignorant for being so vocally opposed to something when you have no idea what really goes on there. I’ve called you all ignorant for speaking with such disdain about American Soldiers, when you obviously have no idea what it means to be one.
So, you are welcome to your opinions and whatnot. And I’ll continue to call you on your ignorance and hypocrisy. I find it sad that so many people have the hubris to consider themselves experts in a subject they have no experience in. reading a couple of blogs in the morning doesn’t make you knowledgeable.
Cassidy
Get used to it…
ConservativelyLiberal
Me too! Apple pie is good but cherry pie is even better…
Cassidy
You’re not a good democrat for excluding someone from the debate. Very neo-con of you.
ConservativelyLiberal
Well, I can read that message, so I will respond to it. I am not a Democrat, nor am I a Republican/neo-con.
Maybe that is the problem… ;)
chopper
and what the hell does any of that have to do with knowing that shia iraqis and sunni iraqis don’t get along?
i’ll make sure to forward this argument to my iraqi friends. since they haven’t medivaced american soldiers or been on a battlefield etc, they must also not have the right to discuss the political machinations of iraqi society which they obviously thus must know absolutely nothing about. i’m sure they’ll be surprised.
Cassidy
That’s not what I was talking about. Read for content and answer your own question.
TenguPhule
And I’ll call you on your bullshit.
Either the army really relaxed their standards when they let you in, or you’ve repeatedly flunked the course on Basic Ethics in Boot.
In order.
Bullshit.
Bullshit.
True to an extent.
Bullshit.
Irony meet Cassidy…oh wait, you’re old friends.
And that is why you fail.
You can’t escalate your way out of a guerilla war. The point of diminishing returns on the use of force was passed back in 2003 and its been downhill from there ever since.
You complain about the ‘spineless Iraqis’ when you personally are safer then they are. They *had* people stand up…who were promptly shot down by an enemy smarter then the entire US military leadership. The guerillas have demonstrated to the point of making it the law of the land “YOU ARE NOT SAFE. AMERICA CAN’T PROTECT YOU. THEY DON’T GIVE A SHIT IF YOU LIVE OR DIE.” and that is how guerillas beat occupying militaries.
ConservativelyLiberal
As I posted in another thread here, Cassidy may be an X-box warrior who is pretending he is in the military. Maybe he is doing this because he hates the military and he wants to make them look bad, maybe he thinks this is what the military is all about.
I think John ought to take his IP address, trace it back, and then forward Cassidy’s posts and the IP info to the DoD. If he is for real, having someone like this in the service and in Iraq is an unacceptable hazard to normal people. He is a cruel person who is living in his own bubble, and that bubble needs to be popped. If he is a faker, I am sure that the DoD could put the fright of prosecution for impersonating a service member in to his slimy ass. Regardless, they have a problem that goes by the moniker ‘Cassidy’. If he is a fake, I would love to let a few real servicemen tear into his ass. I am sure that they would love to do so if that is the case.
Either way, Cassidy is the textbook definition of a psychotic individual. Go over his posts and then look up what the makeup of a psychotic is. Sure fits him to a T.
I have been around military people for most of my life, and while they are a gung-ho bunch, this fruitcake is beyond real. I was talking to my brother last night (former Army, 2nd Armored Division) and he said that this guy sounds like a phony or he is crazy. I agree.