I now declare that Red State is a spoof site, because they really can’t be this dishonest, this stupid, and have fallen so far from when Red State was actually somewhat readable. If they will lie and distort and spin about something this inconsequential, what won’t they lie about?
And one more thing, morons- this is satire. This whole stupid affair, from the original post to the right-wing lies about it is so god damned stupid I am personally shocked Hugh Hewitt has not written about it.
*** Update ***
Apparently some say it is not satire- guess I was thrown at the hot gay sex comment. I stand by them being morons.
demkat620
Sorry John,
But if they didn’t have these phony controversies they wouldn’t have anything to do. Circle jerks only last so long.
Randy Paul
Apparently they never saw SNL in the 1990’s.
Ugh
A wise man once said that redstate (aka Bizarro World) makes perfect sense if you think of it not as a site dedicated to serious conservative positions, but as a site propagating right-wing hackery for the Republican party. The latter makes all things fall into place.
Dave
How the fuck could you not know A. Whitney Brown is a comedian? What a bunch of tools.
Ted
I wonder when Malkin will break out the cheerleader outfit again.
Fwiffo
I dunno, to me it sounds like he’s making a serious statement about those members of the armed forces that just joined up for the hot gay military sex. How could this possibly be satire?
Vladi G
Why assume dishonesty when the more logical answer is that they’re all just fucking morons?
PaulB
The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
And yes, this is horribly dishonest and yes, nothing will stop them from continuing to play this game over and over and over again, ad nauseam.
Dulcie
I’ve seen Red Eye – the wingnuts lack a humor gene.
PaulB
I sadly predict that there will now be a veritable orgy of nutpicking from both the left and the right and it will continue until people finally wise up and stop playing these silly little games.
jake
Nuthin.’
SA2SQ Vol. XMCLLVIX
Mark
You’re being way too hard on the RedStaters. They get most of their knowledge of comedy from former comedian Dennis Miller–it’s not their fault satire confuses them.
Cain
The slide of chimpy’s popularity to 25% has gotten their collective panties in a bunch. They got nothing left, I believe they are in their last throes.
cain
Tsulagi
You have to forgive them. As Wanda Sykes (that’s another comedian sharp RSers) would say…they’re a little slow.
After reading the 1/3 Stooges post you linked to, I noticed another Fred! fest immediately below it. Started reading that one expecting yet another quick panty toss, but the writer seemed to be having problems. I think he got lost.
Was going to Red State for the comedy for a while, but with stuff like those posts and another from a bright bulb on the front page today calling for sedition laws aimed at US Muslims, they’re just phoning it in. No effort. But at least one of their intrepid front pagers will soon be following close behind his blogging battle buddy, Matt (Dirty) Sanchez, in Baghdad. I’m sure he’s up for it.
Punchy
John, it’s not nice to make fun of retards
Blue Neponset
We should all feel sorry for Moe Lane. There is something very wrong with that man.
Dave
There is something very wrong with the whole lot of ’em
Armed Liberal
John, go read his comments – it’s not ‘satire’, it’s how he really feels, unless he’s doing a full Andy Kaufman.
On that basis, the crap Coulter spews is ‘satire’ too, and so off-limits to criticism.
So want to revisit this?
A.L.
Andrew
Did Red State leave their doggie door open?
Cause that would explain Cassidy.
HunterBlackLuna
It’s hard to really tell anymore- that entire extreme branch of neo-nazi/cons has basicaly become a satire of itself.
Equal Opportunity Cynic
I got very suspicious that RS wasn’t living up to its evenhanded reputation when I noticed they were going on this apology kick, demanding that anyone questioning them repudiate the questioning to avoid a ban.
Once Red State sends me an apology for the time I’ve wasted reading wrong-minded Republican hackery, I’ll be happy to consider surfing there again.
ConservativelyLiberal
A. Whitney Brown has to be one of my favorite stealth comics. The way he can deliver his lines and not even crack a smile is hilarious. If anyone takes what he says as the literal truth, they are in need of a frontal lobotomy. That and a funny bone transplant.
I watched the clip, and that was both poignant and hilarious. The delivery was perfect, not a bit of sarcasm leaking through, just plain dead-pan delivery.
Watch out Whitney, the right will be cranking up the mighty Wurlitzer and they are going to blast you with the noize (Faux Noize).
“hundreds of dollars…”. Farking hilarious! Where do I get my skull?
Cain
hey, no post on the debates, Tim?
cain
ConservativelyLiberal
Damn lag got me again…lol
John Cole
It is satire, Armed.
ConservativelyLiberal
The DK diary by AWB is a riot to read! Go look up AWB’s ‘apologies’, and keep reading them and the responses. One person essentially says ‘Hey! I am on to you, you are changing the names and making the same apology!’. One person says that AWB did not insult them, but he wants an apology from AWB to hang on his wall, so AWB gives him one…lol!
Seriously though, there is some good talk going on in the diary, and it is pretty good reading. I think Whitney hit a nerve with this one.
John, when you have to point out that it is satire I have to laugh even more. Geez, talk about some people needing to get a life.
Must be Dennis Miller fans…lol!
DougJ
I just read that here in Rochester, our local Rush Limbaugh is supporting the troops by — wait for it — holding a bake sale to raise money to buy bullet proof vests. I thought it was a joke when I first read it.
yet another jeff
Heh…and the ad on Red State in the middle of the rant is “How Funny is Al Franken?”
True wingers just aren’t funny. It just doesn’t work. If you’re funny and think you’re a true winger, you aren’t a true winger. I love how people think that if they don’t think it’s funny (meaning it doesn’t make fun of anyone left of the Moonies) then it isn’t comedy, it’s true.
Jeff Eaton
Well, the folks i know ho still read Coulter religiously insist that her shtick is “satirical,” and that her “keen sense of humor” is just too refined for the over-sensitive liberals to appreciate. Given the fact that they agree with her, I’m not sure they’re clear on what ‘satire’ means.
Psycheout
That A. Whiney Brown video was pretty stupid. He’s just asking to get beat up by vets. What has this unfunny man done since SNL a couple decades ago? He’s a washed up never was has been. Does he think doing a YouTube video attacking our troops is going to re-launch his failed career?
I did watch it but didn’t read the DKos post or comments. I’ve had enough of Kossites for awhile after the last troop hating eruption and kos kid koverup.
MayBee
Here is one of his apologies:
I sincerely apologize for any offense you might (3+ / 0-)
have taken. It was not my intent to defame or offend anyone who might sign a piece of paper saying they are available to kill whoever their marginally superior officer tells them to, wherever they are sent, for 1200 dollars a month. Such people are not responsible for the people they kill, or the people that are killed by those they feed, support, or maintain.
On the contrary, they are in fact, larger than life, and immune to criticism, reproach, or correction. In short, they are all heroes. Why? Because they are, that’s why. I’m sorry you took any other message from it.
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. Aesop (620 – 560 BC) -8.13, -7.74
by AWhitneyBrown on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 06:08:24 PM PDT
[ Parent ]
It is satire, but he is satirizing people that think the troops are heroes or are deserving of support.
ConservativelyLiberal
I think it is much more that that MayBee. Here is one from the AWB diary at DK that caught my attention:
This observation was on target and most people completely missed it, as I bet AWB expected. People are offended about what AWB said about our soldiers, their families and anything related. But is anyone saying anything about the Iraqi people who are being killed? Hell no. Because they could care less, and AWB exposed that like a raw, bleeding wound for all to see. AWB dug a hole, and people just started jumping into it as he stood by and watched the lemmings in action.
He exposed the hypocrisy of the “Support the Troops” meme that we have to endure. Instead of ‘Tie a Yellow Ribbon Around the Old Oak Tree’, we get magnets made in China that can be slapped on a fender. My God, what fucking nonsense! We have companies that have advertising that exhorts “Support the Troops”. Why? To pull in the stupid patriots and sell the rubes their wares. Go shopping, as our fearless leader exhorted us to do.
During the Vietnam war, we had people who fled to Canada rather than go to war. We had large protests in the streets about it. Not now though. Why? No draft. IMO, most of those who objected to fighting the war in Vietnam did so to save their own skins. They saw the body count piling up on our side, and they did not want to become a statistic. But does saying “I do not want to die” sound noble? Nope. But calling Vietnam an unjust war took the focus off of them and put it on the war instead.
We do not have that now as service is voluntary. That is why they do not want to bring the draft back. They knew that if it were, it would just be a repeat of the protests and draft dodging of the Vietnam era. Why else has the government resisted calls to reinstate the draft? The corporate war we now have is not a war of honor, it is a war of choice that is a for profit enterprise. How many of our contractors are willing to make a small profit in support of the war? Nope, they are squeezing the war for every penny they can.
AWB was dead on with this one. He hit a nerve, and it is going to piss people off, but for all of the wrong reasons. Those of us who understand his point understand the dark humor behind it. The sick, twisted or chickenshit mentality of our leaders, the military, the corporations and the public that has brought us to this point in our history. As a nation, we are one fucked up mess and AWB pointed that out quite effectively.
AWB is going to take a pounding for this, but I have this feeling that he can give a shit. With people like this pounding on him, I would take it as a compliment if I was in his shoes.
Like it or not, he exposed this farce for what it is. Once that becomes clear, these idiots are only going to get angrier at him. They have been had.
What I say here is not going to be popular, but like AWB, I can give a shit. I have been against the Iraq invasion since day one and I have nothing to apologize for.
MayBee
What’s the limit, Conservatively Liberal? What amount of sympathy for others going through daily horrors do we have to exude every day? And does that mean we can’t believe in the mission of OUR military, the dedication of OUR troops?
Let’s look at other issues. I’ll take outsourcing. I hear people everyday talking about American jobs and American families. Well, have you ever seen how most people in India live? I have seen thousands of families living on tarps on the ground. The lucky ones have tarps, I mean. How about factory workers in China? Have you ever seen the little cement block bed-sized dorms they live in, or the horrible hole-in-the-floor toilets they put up with….simply because they want to make money? Yet what hypocrisy! there is in caring about whether American workers keep their jobs and their American standard of living. Where is the concern for the Indian people? The Chinese people? When people support American jobs, American unions, or American workers, are they inherently saying they don’t give a sh*t about others?
Sure, our soldiers kill people. That’s what they have done through history, when they haven’t been lucky enough to be building schools. There is nothing unique in the Iraq war in that. So I don’t know…what scab is there about Iraq that needs to be picked that didn’t need to be picked about all military ventures or the military in general? Cause I can tell you, I live in Japan and they feel they have a real greivance against the allies regarding the firebombing of Tokyo, US participation in general, not to mention the big bombs. There isn’t anywhere in history where the losers of a war look back and say, “well yeah, I guess we deserved that.” So you can see equivalence of value of life in any war, but the only way to eliminate that is to eliminate war. No wait, the only way to eliminate that is to eliminate killing at all. Dafur isn’t a war, after all.
So he is anti-military. He sees no difference between an American death and a death of a foreign national (are Americans responsible because we aren’t saving people in Darfur or North Korea?), and sees no validity in mourning the loss of one life if you don’t mourn them all. That is fine if that is his opinion, but even expressed as satire it is valid to criticize it.
My question is, what did John Cole think AWB was satirizing?
jake
Right, exactly, they fight and kill. They don’t build schools, they shouldn’t be asked to build schools. Ideally they shouldn’t be asked to make split-second decisions about whether the guy walking up to them is just a guy walking up to them or a guy walking up to them with a lot of HEX under his shirt. Ideally they wouldn’t be waging a completely unnecessary war based on a series of lies that started with talk about Yellowcake and ended with talk about a cake walk.
Nope, but they sure as hell won’t say it when the war, sorry, invasion, is unrelated to any act of aggression by their country. The WWII analogy don’t work. You might also want to take a look at what the US and allied forces did after they’d beaten the Axis nations and compare it to the “reconstruction” efforts going on in Iraq. If we’d put the Germans and the Japanese etc through the sort of shit that goes on daily in Iraq they still wouldn’t be speaking to the US.
ConservativelyLiberal
If you have to ask that question after what I wrote, I can’t help you understand it. Also, ‘American death’ and the death of a ‘foreign national’ are exactly the same thing. That you make the distinction is in itself very telling. Sorry, but we are all people, and we do not deserve to die, for whatever reason, if we are innocent.
We are not sending our jobs overseas to improve conditions there, we are sending them so the companies can make a better profit. Our own history even shows that business is willing to do anything to get labor cheap. Well, that is not possible here but there is a whole world out there to exploit and exploit it we are.
There is a reason that every great nation eventually fails. It rots from within. Every single great nation has passed on, and anyone who thinks that we will be the exception to the rule is delusional. I wish it was otherwise, but history is not on our side in this.
I don’t know what else to say MayBee, I do not have the answers. All I know is that I am watching our county implode and there are a few others like me who see the same thing. Whenever we say anything, we are challenged to come up with the solution to it, but those who are challenging us for the solution are the ones that are perfectly happy with the status quo. I grew up learning to be proud of our nation, and in my adult life I have had to revise my view radically. I do not like to see our men and women die like they are now. Nor do I like to see people being killed or starving to death.
I do know that to be able to take care of others, I first have to take care of myself. If I do not do so, I will be never be able to help others. Right now, we need statesmen, and all we have are politicians who are only interested in keeping their jobs.
In WWII, we were attacked and we pulled together to fight back. There was true shared sacrifice. That is what war is all about. Defending yourself and your allies. Now we have lost sight of Osama, and we are stuck in a war of choice. A war that is killing a lot of people and making the rich even richer while it is going on.
I can’t speak for AWB, but I do not think he is anti-military. I know I am not. But I can’t blindly support this war just because our men and women are dying over there. I did not send them to Iraq, nor did I want them sent. This is “pre-emptive” war, which IMO is war of the worst sort. AWB is using satire to point out the mess that this has become, and he is on target with it. It is painful to hear, but it is the truth.
Our system has failed us, and it has failed everyone it has touched thoughout the world. Sure, there are men and women over in Iraq doing honorable things, but that does not excuse the mess we are in. That does not change that facts at all. All it does is confuse the situation even more. People are conflicted because they want to support the troops, but they know that what we are doing is not right.
What I do know is that this can not go on forever. One day this will come to a head, and I fear that many more people are going to die when that happens.
God, I hope I am wrong.
Tim F.
Stand by your first instinct, John. The post is clearly satire.
Tim F.
Bizzy.
ConservativelyLiberal
Don’t hurry Tim, if I connected a hose to my TV during the debates, I could have vacuumed every room in the house. Probably the yard too. Maybe even the street I live on. The same with the Republican debates a short time ago.
If anything, TV has to be the worst thing that ever happened to politics. It is like American Idol now, only the lives of everyone is on the line.
Note: I say American Idol, but I have to be truthful and say that is only from my understanding of what the show is about. I have never watched a single episode, and I never intend to either.
Davebo
Some people wouldn’t know satire if it walked up and offered you barbecued baby.
MayBee
I understand what you are saying, but I am asking what John Cole thought. Because I see AWB’s post as controversial at best, and Cole was quite dismissive of criticisms of it because it is satire. But what someone is satirizing is important. Satirizing the idea that people would actually criticize the troops seems quite mainstream. What you are saying is more controversial, and those that disagree shouldn’t be so easily dismissed as dishonest or stupid.
.
What is innocent? Look, I’m no supporter of a soldier putting a child’s scalp on his head (if that really happened), but is he to be more condemned than the people who put the child in the mass grave? Why was the child’s body there (if it was), and what could prevent it or keep it from happening again? Is it better for the scalp-wearing troop to be in Iraq if he can keep more children from being put in mass graves? Or is it better to mourn the child, disparage the soldier, bring the troops home, and feel like you’ve really made a difference?
Is the soldier from another country innocent? What about the guy who just laid an IED vs an American soldier that is there to track him down. Is one more “innocent”? Is one more worthy of our mourning? Why?
I don’t know how ‘telling’ it is that I make a distinction between Americans and foreign nationals, and you didn’t address my point about all the time we do and we have made that distinction. American soldiers and Foreign soldiers. American jobs and foreign jobs. American disasters and foreign disasters. I mean, my God, foreign nationals live like Katrina victims every single day. Is it telling for someone to want to help Katrina victims without first expressing sympathy for, and insisting on supporting, the citizens of Cambodia?
carpeicthus
What the hell has happened to Moe Lane? I suspect Moe and John share one brain, and John’s been using it for the past couple years.
Andrew
The YouTube debate sucked less than every other debate so far, especially the one run by Matthews.
ConservativelyLiberal
MayBee, we can not appoint ourselves as the Maytag repairman for the world. Every nation that becomes successful has their dark ages, the period when many suffer and die for whatever reason. I wish it were otherwise, but that is the way it is. Call it growing pains of the worst sort. But it is something that a nation has to go through to rise above it. Or as is said by some, God helps those who help themselves.
There are despots all over the world. Unfortunately, our government has even helped to create and prop up some of them. This is because the business of America is business. When our corporations have interests in other countries, and they are threatened for whatever reason, we have gone to ‘war’ to protect them. Especially when it comes to resources that we here use at home. Many of the wars that are fought are over resources, and usually little else. History is replete with examples of this.
As I said before, I do not have all of the answers. But I do know when something is not right, and that is the situation we are now in. Why should we help Katreena victims and not Cambodian victims? Well, like I said above. I have to take care of myself before I can take care of others. The same goes for our nation. If we neglect ourselves to save the world, who will save us? If we can’t count on ourselves, we have no right to count on others, and that goes for the rest of the world.
One problem that we face is that many of our problems in the world are interconnected, and untangling the mess is nigh impossible. Each nation is looking out for #1 (themselves), and in most cases they can care less about the rest of the world. Religion is another problem. It is the ‘us versus them’ mentality that it places us in.
The world is a complicated place, and there is no simplifying it. No sound bite that solves everything. But one thing I know is that we are not going to get anywhere with our current ‘leadership’ as they have no idea what they are doing. All they are busy thinking about is how to win the next election, raising money and scoring points against the opposition.
Want to know the definition of helplessness? We are living it.
jenniebee
If, at the end of the day we re-discover our Founding Fathers’ profound fear of large, standing armies… well, we’ll have paid for it in blood, but that’s the sort of wisdom that’s always bought with blood, so there it is.
ConservativelyLiberal
Maybe revisiting Dwight D. Eisenhower’s famous warning about the military/industrial complex would be helpful for some. That man, a former General who led the successful war effort in WWII, had to have a good reason to have warned us like he did. Make no mistake, it was a warning. And I think we have ignored it to this day. That may even explain why we are in the situation we are now in.
Here is a refresher course for those who may have not heard him before:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY
Wilfred
This whole business about the troops is a bit ridiculous, no? We talk about them as if they were 10 year olds caught up in the middle of a messy divorce – ” we mustn’t blame them, or talk bad about them, or let our petty squabbles disturb them’, etc, etc.
On the one hand, we have the Flag as Diaper, Redstate crowd, the A.E. Houseman emotocons. I’m on the Hugh MacDiarmid side:
Another Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries:
It is a God-damned lie to say that these
Saved, or knew, anything worth any man’s pride.
They were professional murderers and they took
Their blood money and impious risks and died.
In spite of all their kind some elements of worth
With difficulty persist here and there on earth.
28 Percent
That is so TYPICAL you do not follow GOD’S WAY yours is a CULTURE OF DEATH.
over_educated
Hmm.. Looks like the new right wing marching orders are to drum up anything they can to try and show “libruls hate the trupes!”
Good luck with that.
Zifnab
All this crap about “Why don’t you support the troops?!” has been the lamest cover for the Deserter-in-Chief and crowd. It’s classic Roveian Strategy. Find your own weakness / your enemy’s strength and pull polemics until you’ve decimated everyone’s credibility. Then invoke cynicism and “fear of hippies” to pull enough people over the line to get your 51% majority.
1. Analysis
2. Polemics
3. ???
4. Profit!!
It’s a tried and true strategy and all it requires is an MSM willing to parrot the most bold-faced lies and unfounded allegations you can come up with.
The idea that RedState or Ace or any other conservative blogging outlet is any sort of soldier-support bastion is a fucking joke. They didn’t give two shits about Walter Reed, except when they were deriding socialized medicine. They haven’t raised a peep about Bush threatening to veto a bill because Dems wanted to raise soldiers’ wages too high, except to deride minimum wage. They smiled and waved at the Swift Boat Veterans while foaming at the mouth over VoteVets.org and they cheered Haditha / Gitmo / Abu Garab while they spat on Shinseki, Abizad, and Clark.
But they’ve got little yellow bumper magnets on all their SUVs, so I guess it’s the liberals who should be in the crosshairs.
Jake
All true Zifnab, but Bush and his pet Rove don’t know when to quit. Or look at the polls and re-do The Math. Support The Troops! (TM) worked admirably, for a while. If Bush had sent the soldiers in, nabbed Hussein and gotten the hell out of there Democrats would still be remembered as the party that hated soldiers and no one but a few moonbats would have bothered to ask awkward questions about why the hell we went into Iraq and what the hell it had to do with bin Laden.
Once people started to realize that this Administration’s definition of STT! includes multiple extended rotations, a broke ass Flagship hosptial and a refusal to give the soldiers a stinking extra .5% on their 3% raise, Rove needed to get a new slogan. (I won’t go so far as to suggest this Administration would do anything radical, like change strategy.)
Instead, Bush is trying to beat the STT! drum to get Congress to cough up some cash. Maybe he’s noticed that the skins are busted and the sticks held together by duct tape but I don’t think he cares. Like Beavis n’ Butthead hur-huring over the word “Wood,” during class, Bush will happily repeat Support The Troops!, because he knows it annoys the shit out of people, a lot of whom are in uniform.
The Other Steve
Zifnab – But it’s funny. The Democrats have been doing so well at supporting the troops, that the Republicans have broken down.
They’re now running around admitting that what they really meant was not supporting the troops, but rather supporting the war and their President… troops be damned.
El Cruzado
Well, it reminds me of this:
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/34068
Cassidy
Well, when you continually get stuff like this:
It starts to make you wonder who actually gives a shit. We know conservatives don’t care about our well being or our lives. And we also know that liberals would happily see us die to say they were “right”. And here we are, the small few who deal with the day to day realities of it all, stuck in the middle of a society that just really doesn’t give a shit.
Then to add insult to injury, the very people who speak with such contempt about your beliefs, are the very same people you’d vigorously defend until death, because you promised to do so.
If only the Iraqis beleived that…
Sounds a lot like the Democratic hopefuls as well. At this point, I’d be willing to vote for a dog, as long as it’s a Democrat. And while even Kucinich couldn’t do a job worse than Bush (well maybe he could), I’m not hearing a lot of stuff out of them that’s going to make things better.
Instead, we’ll just leave it to the masses to debate about who’s “right” while more Soldiers die. Yeah, that’s the right answer…
Zifnab
It would be nice if the Democrats noticed that the drum is busted up too. You’ve got a party awash in popular support and it STILL can’t do the right thing. And I wish I could say its Pelosi’s fault or Reid’s fault, because then we could all just wave our hands for new leadership and the problem would solve itself. But noooooo, it’s those DINO wankers like Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman (is he an IINO now, or what?) who keep folding before the cards have been dealt and licking Bush buttchecks like he’s still the Messiah Returned.
You can’t get rid of these guys. They’re the only ones giving us a majority, without which we’d have Republicans running the Senate to make us all gag, so we can’t throw them out. But about the only thing that keeps them from being Republicans is the (D) in front of their names. And why do they support the Republicans before they support the troops? Because they’re afraid of their conservative base back home! A base that is crumbling and deserting its own party day by day! It boggles the mind! *sigh*
Zifnab
Yeah. Fuck the masses! What type of government do you people think this is?
Dreggas
Fixed.
Dreggas
Fixed.
HunterBlackLuna
‘Fuck the masses’ does seem to be the general strategy of our federal government for the last six and a half years…
Cassidy
You can take what you want from it. My point is that your priorities suck.
But, to answer your question, it’s a democratically elected government. So all this “Bush is bad” stuff, doesn’t change that the majority of America voted him into office…twice.
Zifnab
Technically, the majority of America voted for him once. Al Gore was winner of the popular vote in 2000. In case you’ve forgotten.
Nim, ham hock of liberty
Next on Red State:
OMG Teh Liberal Jonathan Swift says we SHOULD EAT IRISH BABIES to solve the hunger problem!!! We knew it all along!!!
Cassidy
No I haven’t forgotten, nor does it matter. That’s not how our electoral system works.
Zifnab
Cognissance, meet dissonance. Dissoance, cognissance. Now, play nice.
Cassidy
Personally, I prefer to not live in the past. It’s allready done. Time to move on.
Dreggas
I wouldn’t say the masses elected him, but hey if 51% of less than half the nation is a “Majority Of America” then whatever floats your boat.
jh
Cassidy,
Stop being a sanctimonius prick.
You do not own the monopoly on personal sacrifice, commitment to one’s cause or love for this country.
You have made your beliefs and allegiences clear:
Soldiers first. Everybody else shut the fuck up and let us kill as many people as we need to to come home safe.
Your position is both absurd and grotesque and serves as a grim reminder as to why the military is under civilian control and not vice versa.
Dreggas
Tell ya what, I’ll “Move On” when the right stops screaming about the Clenis. Until then I’ll be more than happy to put a needle in that bubble that keeps the whole “Bush won twice” and “Bush won with a majority” meme’s they want to keep spouting.
jenniebee
This reminds me of a story I just made up. There were three friends walking on a sidewalk, approaching the intersection of a busy road. One of the friends said to another, “you should cross the road now.” The second friend said “omg wtf don’t do that, there’s a bus coming.”
After considering the advice of both his compatriots, the third friend started to cross the road in the face of the oncoming bus, was severely injured, and ended up in the hospital. When the first and second friend went to visit him, the injured man turned to the one who had advised him not to walk into oncoming traffic and said “well, I suppose you’re happy now, I always knew you’d do anything to be proven right.”
It’s like that.
Cassidy
For what it’s worth, when I first read it, I thought he was referencing the Fort Bragg episode.
Cassidy
Then stop confusing Soldiers with imperialist and all that crap.
Pretty close, except for the “let us” part. I will kill as many people as necessary to come home safe, with or without your permission.
Stop projecting. As far as that whole thing went, as someone who voted for Clinton, I thought it was a moronic distraction form the real issues. And you can spin it all you want, but the facts are: Bush won the electon twice. Period. Just because you don’t like the result, doesn’t make it any less true. So give it up allready. Learn the mistakes of the past and move on. Start with trimming the liberal fat from the party (obesity is an epidemic) so that we don’t implode like the Republicans have.
Dreggas
Eh most people like a little meat on their bones. Quite honestly I’d rather have the fat on the outskirts rather than at the heart of the party like the republicans have, thanks for the “concern” though.
mrmobi
A rousing “yes” to the first part. Let’s run it down, shall we? Walter Reed, No Pay Increases, Inadequate Equipment, unprecedented re-deployment schedules, it a long fucking list.
Why, then, if you believe the second part, would you vote for a Demislamunofacist?
You are arguing both sides of the issue, a sure sign of a troll, but I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt here. However, the way you argue, we should call you Col. Jessup.
From what I’ve read of you in here, you sound like one of those “just let us do what’s necessary” military types, you know “You can’t handle the truth!” The Founders wisely understood that there had to be civilian control of the military.
Actually, Bush got the majority of votes once, which is what Zif was saying.
For myself, I’m very disappointed with the Democrats at this point, but I don’t see any possibility of real action with turncoats like Holy Joe Lieberman caucusing with both parties. Stalemate will be the order of the day. If you don’t like it, call up your Republican Senator and explain yourself.
We’ve argued in here before about whether the Democratic strategy on the war is cynical. I say it doesn’t really matter unless some Republicans strap on a pair and step up before their party is relegated to the scrap heap of history.
Personally, I’d like to see the term “Neoconservatism” become the type of smear “liberalism” was just a few years ago. We have work to do, but Neocons have been wrong about so much for so long, I believe the trend is strongly in a liberal direction.
All of the above assumes, of course, that Bush II will in fact leave office in 2009. I think there is a real question whether he thinks it is wise to “change horses” while the war on terra continues. We are a nation of laws, but the deciderator believes he is exempt from them. You probably didn’t know that, it’s part of Executive order number “Go Fuck Yourself or I’ll Shoot You in the Face.”
Cassidy
We ain’t far behind.
Cassidy
Lesser of two evils…because I’m pro-choice…because I beleive in a limited social safety net (as opposed to none)…because I can’t stand religious invasion into political issues…because my bedroom is my private playground….take your pick. I said I was fairly moderate. I just happen to lean left. I have some Republican values, but not enough to tip the scales.
This part…absolutely. Diplomacy is a great thing. I love diplomacy. I wish it was used more often. But once the troops roll in, the people, including the pols, need to step back and let the military do what it does best: wage war. What we don’t need is everyone looking over our shoulders, second-guessing us. You’re a distraction that costs lives. War isn’t pretty. It never will be. Nobody goes around throwing seed packets, saying “tag, your dead”.
tBone
Second-guessing the asshats in the administration who screwed up this war from Day 1 != second-guessing the troops. Nice try, though.
jh
Funny, I don’t recall saying anything like that. Nice strawman though. Does he come in blue?
Soldiers are tools. They are only as good as their civilian leadership.
And for that you should be willing to withstand scrutinty, and in cases of misconduct (i.e. Haditha) face some sort of criminal prosecution.
None of this changes the fact that you are a prick.
In your warped mind, your “warrior’s code” (snicker) trumps any commitment to larger humanity, the principles for which this country CLAIMS it stands (we’re the good guys) and civilian oversight of the military.
And yet you wonder why the founding fathers wanted to ensure the military was under civilian control, subject to the popular will of the people.
People like you are why.
Cassidy
You can second guess them all day long. Do until your blue in the face. I don’t care about them. I care about my military. And it would be nice to be able to do our jobs without a bunch of keyboard generals trying to insist that we aren’t doing things the right way.
jh
Another nice strawman. I’d like this one in paisley if you’ve got it.
Cassidy
I’m all for prosecuting those who lose control. It violates the principle we live under. I’ve never said different.
Snicker all you want. Just more proof that in your narrow mind, you don’t get it. And you never will. And no, I gives a damn about the “larger humanity”…whatever that tripe means. I have no committment to that sort of fallacy. It’s bullshit to make people feel better about themselves as they sit around typing dogmatic tirades on things they know nothing about.
The POTUS is the Commander in Chief, regardless of whether you voted for him or not. I chose Kerry, but that didn’t work out. Life moves on.
Cassidy
Not really. Just a testament to the “discussion” that goes on down here.
jh
Shorter Cassidy:
“Waaah! If only those mean ole civilians; you know the ones from whose numbers we draw our volunteers, whose taxes pay our friggin’ salaries and whose elected representatives have the sole right to authorize any and all actions we as soliders take, would butt the hell out.
John Cole is that you?
I call spoof on this guy.
No real human being is this….whatever.
Cassidy
You’re slacking…I don’t get paid very much.
Jake
You’re posting from a combat zone?
Shit, that totally buggered my Irony-o-meter.
jh
Get what?
That you have an ethical blindspot the size of Montana?
That you are a member of the cult of ‘Military first, civilians second, and “the only dead gook….”‘?
Please.
Yeah if weren’t for all those annoying “humanitarians’, the world would be a better place.
Damn you Mahatma Ghandi. Damn you to hell!
Surely what the world needs now is more weak minded, belligerent, cannon fodder supplicating themselves to inane “warrior’s codes”.
You play the role of hard-nosed pragmatist, but what you really are is full of shit and not a little bit cowardly.
I was onto you the moment you made the demonstrably absurd statement that the Coalition could “pacify” Iraq in two weeks if only civilian oversight were removed (as if civilian oversight has played any significant role in restraining coalition actions in theater) and soldiers like yourself were given carte blanche to kill your way to victory.
The statement was made, with a straight face and without a shred of supporting evidence.
I call bullshit.
And while were on the subject.
Funny, the story always went that soldiers stepped into harm’s way, willing to face death if necessary in the name of the United States Constitution, Freedom, Justice every other high minded principle that this nation stands for.
According to my good friend Cassidy, the foremost authority on all things military, all that is bullshit.
He just wanted to get home safe and if every Iraqi man, woman and child must die for him to do so, then so be it.
Jake
Slightly OT: Another military base, another photo op. (Hey, THEY WANT TO KILL USSS!)
Jane, stop this crazy thing!
Zifnab
But… wait… what? Past… not matter… Bush elected two times by majority… twice… “Bush bad stuff” not matter… black is white… ignorance is strength…
2… plus… 2… equals … … … … 5?
MayBee
Conservatively Liberal-
I agree that this was satire- I don’t think for a minute, for example, that AWB thinks soldiers sign up for the gay sex. Satire.
But just writing something off as satire means nothing, because all satire makes an underlying point. He makes clear in his “apology” what his larger point is- that US Soldiers really aren’t deserving of his support because they are people that choose, for low pay, to buy into the military structure and go off and kill people. The people that deserve our support are the Iraqis being killed. Furthermore, AWB states that he doesn’t really need to be defended by the military at all, he’ll defend himself. And yes, many of the other things you say are hinted at in is satire.
You and I disagree on the validity of AWB’s larger point, and that’s fine. It is controversial, however. You don’t have to be a hack to see it so, or to be offended by it.
Cassidy
Not at the moment. But I’ll be going back. That’s inevitable.
Hajis…we call them hajis…gook is so 1960’s…stick with the times, man.
Call it what you want. I call it experience and the knowledge of what kind of force the US Military can unleash, given the oppurtunity to do so. And yes, the “pacification” I speak of would not be possible, largely due to the American people not having the stomach for the kind of violence it would entail.
I said it before, that its a minority of Soldiers who are purely altruistic. And I never said it was bullshit. You may think so, as evidenced by your posts, but please don’t project your shortcomings onto me. Objectively, I would defend everything you said, to include every person who posts on here, to the death if neessary, because I believe in my job. So while personally, I may find you completely distasteful, I’m professional enough to put my feelings aside and do what’s right.
Absolutely. They aren’t worth not seeing my family again. My fellow Soldiers are, but not the Iraqis.
This makes me laugh…a lot.
Jake
You never know your luck.
Cassidy
I know the Army. If I don’t have to go back, that would be nice. I round of counseling and PTSD is enough. But, the likelihood is that this time next year, I’ll either be back or getting ready to go back. That’s the way it is. I’ll cast my vote. We’ll see what happens. But in the end, I doubt little will change. People will argue about whether we should be there. I’ll be on patrol. Life sucks sometimes…get a helmet.
jh
Can the US Military level Iraq? Yes.
Can it brutalize it’s way to pacification? No. It would only radicalize the population to the point where US Soliders would have to shoot on sight every living Iraqi man woman and child.
Such a course of action BTW, would be viewed as War Crimes and wouldn’t lead to a free, democratic Iraq. Only a dead Iraq.
Moreover, engaging in such a reprehensible campaign would not make us safer in the long term, as many of the survivors of such a campaign would certainly make it their life’s work to harm Americans at any cost. The presence of radical Islam and a victimized population guarantees this. Welcome to 30+ years of blowback.
You got that right.
?
But you said it yourself, Bush is the CINC. He’s the deciderator. What he says goes. Why, all of a sudden, would he decide to become accountable to the will of the American people vis a vis Iraq?
Has hasn’t up to this point, and he certainly doesn’t plan to start. And neither will a certain half of the US Congress.
But more to the point, it wouldn’t be dissent from the American people that would prevent us from salting the earth in Iraq. It would be the fact that doing so would expose this war for the scam it is.
You cannot on one hand claim to care for the freedom, safety and general well being of the Iraqi people, while subjecting them to tactics akin to those used by the Belgians in the Congo.
But then, I surely wasn’t expecting you to make anything resembling sense.
.
Bullshit.
By your own admission, you’ll kill, maim and do whatever is necessary until the next rotation out of Iraq, setting aside all conventions of warfare (the foremost being NOT harming civilians) and human decency if necessary.
Do not attempt to equate your own selfish motives with any sacrifices on behalf of your fellow Americans.
Or so you tell yourself. What you are advocating is wholly unprofessional in terms of being a soldier. Read the Geneva Conventions sometime.
You have decided to abandon your responsibilities as a solider in an occupying army to the safety of the civilians in your midst, casting their well being to the wind in the name of protecting yourself and your comrades.
Now this may be a rational and justifiable (not to be confused with just, ethical or heroic) response to what is going on in Iraq, please don’t kid yourself and call it professional or “right”.
Quite the contrary. It is wrong, as in “two wrongs making a clusterfuck.”
Now please go sell your illogical nonsense to people who don’t know any better.
Cassidy
Wow…a lot of words. You could’ve simply said you don’t have a clue and you’d have gotten your point across.
Waging war is not a war crime.
I’ve never claimed that. Quite the contrary. I could care less about that. They have no spine. They can die on their knees. Not my problem.
I think you have a very skewed version of war playing in your hair. This isn’t an Airsoft battle with pellet guns. We are shooting real bullets out of those rifle looking thingies. You really have a problem with self-preservation? That’s a rather retarded stand to take.
Blah…I’ve backed up my words with actions. You on the other hand type…how very selfless of you. You must consider sacrifice as akin to waiting five minutes to take a piss while you finish typing.
Advocating my willingness to fight for my fellow Americans, if necessary is unprofessional? Funny, I thought that was the point of my job. Silly me.
I’m fairly well versed in the Geneva Convention. Waging war doesn’t violate it.
Not really. As a Soldier, my responsibility is to my own first. As for the safety of the civilians…you’re right. I gives a fuck about their safety. when they start actively taking part in re-building their country, I’ll consider them worthy of anything but scorn. Until then, they can fend for themselves.
Wrong again. Don’t project your own beliefs into subjects you know nothing about. preserving the life of a fellow Soldier is always first and is the right thing to do. You may be too chickenshit to get that…that’s fine. There have always been people like you to let other do the fighting.
Heh…coming from someone who has no clue. Gotta love liberal humor.
Cassidy
Jh…if I ever have to shoot and kill someone…I’m gonna dedicate it to you. All in your name jh…just for you.
Chris Johnson
It’s a good thing this fellow is probably a spoof, ‘cos he’s a piss-poor soldier.
“every CIVILIAN in the country in which I am working might just as well die, they have no spine, they can die on their knees, not my problem”?
Maybe the idea is that they’re not expected to have the specific type of ‘spine’ for which you are employed.
Maybe if they had, they’d be fighting you! Imagine that!
“Waging war is not a war crime”
Tell it to the Hague. You are expected- OBLIGATED- to be a human being AND a soldier. Chust followink orders, and untermenschen, were SO 1940s.
Chris Johnson
Oh, and as for A. Whitney Brown? I could only read the transcript, the youtube link wasn’t working, but still. FOCK. That is some dark, dark funny there. I’ve gotta go back later to see if his comic timing is as good as the writing. That’s some of the evilest comedy I’ve ever seen, it’s awesome :)
Start from the assumption that this man doesn’t REALLY want a necklace of children’s ears but is mocking other people’s obliviousness about it. It’s sort of like Sacha Cohen’s ‘Borat’. The fact that there are people out there half a hair less outrageous and legit doesn’t stop this being really mean, funny comedy, because this guy is NOT genuine, and that’s why he phrases things in just precisely the most horrible, embarrassing way…
Cassidy
You didn’t do much reading did you? It’s their country. They need to rebuild it. Stand up and show some guts, or die subservient. Either way, it’s all the same to me.
jh
Thus, the beauty of the internet. Anyone can claim to be anything. You might actually be an Iraq war veteran. Or you could be a student hired by Mr. Cole to bait ‘n spoof.
At this point, It doens’t really matter as I’m fairly certain there are people who think just as you do.
As for my personal sacrfice, you presume to know a lot about someone you don’t know.
If that were all you were advocating, I wouldn’t have a problem with you.
What you DID in fact advocate was the 2 week pacification of Iraq via escalating coalition violence levels (against whom is anyone’s guess)with little regard to the safety of the civilian population.
THAT, dear asshole would constitute war crimes.
Combine the willful commission of war crimes with the fact that your so-called “pacification” wouldn’t work. Just ask the British.
You could of course, attempt to provide some evidence, any evidence that it might, but your widdle head might ‘splode from all that thinking.
Lacking anything resembling a coherent response, you will play your “I served, so I know how the real world works” card.
This too is laughable, as there are combat veterans present on this thread who find your positions impractical and unethical, not to mention macabre.
Having personally done relief work in sub-Saharan Africa, in places where foreigners were killed, mutilated or disappeared for any number of reaons, I find your “I’ll kill whoever I have to” stance to be chickenshit.
Hundreds of millions of people live with violence, tyranny, privation and anarchic uncertainty every day.
But you, with your white man’s burden bullshit, have made the conscious decision to count yourself amongst the minority of people who feel entitled to use those reasons as justification carry out wanton violence, for reasons far beyond those of mere self-defense.
We rightly call these people assholes.
Like I said, go sell your illogical nonsense somewhere else tough guy.
Nobody here is buying.
Cassidy
Lots of words to show you can’t read. I never advocated it…I said it could be done. Big difference. It’s an objective assessment based on my knowledge of our miltary’s capabilities and the culture of Iraq. So, next time, before you start spouting like a broken sewer pipe, try reading instead of skimming.
Not once have I committed anything resembling a war crime. I abide by the laws of land warfare and always have.
As for the safety of the civilian population…if they want safety, then point us to the insurgents. By remaining cowardly and quiet, they are perpetuating their own horro story. I feel absolutely no sympathy for them.
jh
Bullshit.
I’ll go back and find your posts when I get the time.
I agreed that the military could level Iraq. What it cannot do is escalate its way to peace. Not without killing, imprisoning or repressing every living Iraqi civilian, in essence becoming worse than Saddam Hussein. Last time I checked, brutality to civilians was one of the reasons we cited for removing Saddam in the first place.
That’s the one thing you clearly DON’T understand.
Maybe not, but I get the sense from your posts that you would if given sufficient leeway. That makes you a psychopath.
This type of idiocy would be funny if not for the dead people.
You’re past that point bucko.
The insurgency is multi-headed and multi-factional. From Shia, to Sunni, to AQ in Mesopotamia, to inter familial rivalry, to somebody just turned in for the reward money, “the” insurgents are numerous and nebulous. Thanks in no small part to all of the disastrously stupid actions of the people who brought us Shock’ n Awe, Abu Ghraib, Haditha, the many checkpoint killings, and the other well known abuses perpetrated against the kind of Iraqis who might have at some point helped us.
Combine that with the fact that every single Iraqi knows that collaborating with us is a death sentence. We cannot protect them, not the policemen we hire, not the translators and not even men in high office.
This is the house that Bush built. It is burning and US Soldiers are trapped in it.
You apparently think an throwing a gas can on the fire is a good idea.
Tim F.
Then we leave and our new friends’ neighbors rat them out to the local militia and they die. Stellar plan.
Jake
The fact he’ll never be in the position to put it into place should come as something of a relief. Assuming he ain’t just a spoof with a lot of spare time, on the chickenhawks scale, folks like Cass. rate a zero in terms of presenting a danger to the health and welfare of civilians, members of the armed forces and the Ponies of Freedom (TM). People like the Draft Dodger in Chief and Dr. Deferment rate a solid 11.
Cassidy
Nah…not worth my career. I do my job. I come home. SImple enough.
Go ahead. You’ll also find a post where I said that personally I wouldn’t choose that course of action, but it could be done. On the flip side of that, once you’ve reached the point of troops going in, holding back is only asking for problems like we’re facing now. War should be conducted as “total war”. If you don’t intend on clear and irretrievable victory, then you’ve allready lost. War isn’t something that should be done half-assed. Sherman is a perfect example. You fight to win. Period. This is the problem of having civilians, with no military experience telling you how to do your job.
Semantics. The bottom line is that there are those who are actively trying to kill US Soldiers, making it difficult on the rest of the population. It doesn’t matter why…not when you’re the boots on the ground. So, as you so quickly try to deny, if the local population will point us towards those who are actively trying to kill us, we will go get them. At the very least, they could step outside and say “Hey! There’s a bomb there.”…even that little action would be appreciated.
This is bullshit. The checkpoints are clearly marked. If it’s a TCP, there are signs and Soldiers telling people to slow down and back off. If they choose to ignore the warnings, that’s their choice.
For someone who likes to point out my “simple” arguments, you sure use a lot of them when it suits you.