Just in case you were keeping score- some anonymous wingnut wrote a nasty anti-military screed on DKOS, had it promptly deleted by the folks at DKOS, and that is somehow proof that the left hates troops.
Meanwhile, Mitt Romney is running around posing for pics with offensive posters, and the usual suspects are quiet.
Current score:
Hypocrisy 1, Sanity 0
BTW- This piece from Charles Johnson at LGF is pretty hacktacular:
The leftist blogosphere went out of their way to cover this one up as quickly as possible.
It was posted at Daily Kos, as Ace relates. But the Kidz are on edge about their credibility, so it was deleted within hours, without a word of explanation. Just doesn’t look right to be dissing the military when Kos is trying so hard to be the voice of the Democratic Party.
I actually had a window open to that page, and was going to write about it, but when I refreshed I saw it had been disappeared.
A quick refresher- anyone can post a diary there. I could log on to my account and write nothing but BUSH SUCKS BUSH SUCKS BUSH SUCKS BUSH SUCKS. In fact, I just did.
In other words, some idiot posted something, the community at DKOS found it offensive, and they deleted it. Isn’t that tacit support for the troops?
If they had left the post up, we would have had the usual suspects with the normal rightwing linkgasm: Michelle Malkin would have a post with 72 updates, and every drooling, frothing 28%er with a keyboard would have linked to it within hours claiming it PROVES THE LEFT HATES THE TROOPS. The spelling and punctuation wouldn’t be as good as mine, though.
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Which is kind of an object lesson about reading Ace and LGF anymore.
*** Update ****
BREAKING FAST- THE PLOT THICKENS
It appears the perpetrator of the cover-up at DKOS was the AUTHOR, HIMSELF:
We just spoke with the true-crime author who wrote the piece and published it at Daily Kos and In Cold Blog.
“It’s not my intention to denigrate the troops,” Corey Mitchell says. “It’s to help them when they get back.”
Within a few hours of the original posting, Mitchell says he added a disclaimer: This article in no way is meant to suggest that all military members will become serial killers or mass murderers. It does point out a serious problem with what is happening in our armed forces and seeks a solution to help the brave men and women on their return back home.
But Mitchell says he then pulled the posting from both blogs after readers, liberals and conservatives alike, “ripped it to shreds.” He says no one from Daily Kos asked him to remove the posting.
NO ONE ASKED HIM TO REMOVE THE POSTING, MORE CLEAR PROOF THE LEFT HATES THE TROOPS!
jg
That is all the proof some need.
Bill White
More “Daily Kos invades Poland” spin from LGF, Red State etc . . .
Its blog envy, and fear.
Blue Neponset
We should also remember that the Sun rose in the east today. That is clearly proof that teh moonbats hate the troops.
jg
Coke is saying Pepsi hates the troops. Coke drinkers need proof? Um no.
Dave
I wonder if LGF footballs would like to comment on the three accounts I’ve had banned from Red State. Nothing offensive in my posts and diaries, just questioning the point of view there.
Dave
…and once again John, thank you for reading the wingnut blogs so I don’t have to.
Keifus
Well, I’m not about to defend the validity of the footballer’s (or whoever’s) science experiment here (although it might be fun to count the fallacies), but the Kos site isn’t exactly a haven for broad political discourse either. A couple hairs from the doctrinaire is enough to get you shunned, and humor’s a banning offense.
If those guys get in a pissing match, that’s super. They deserve each other.
LarryB
It gets better.
tBone
Well, yeah. As we know, every leftist is connected to every other leftist through the Ultra-Liberal Hive Mind. Therefore if one leftist hates the troops, they all do. That’s just common sense.
jenniebee
I read a good portion of the diary entry in question (not the whole thing, found it frankly boring, and the fact that Soldiers are trained to kill other people is not exactly news.) It’s hard to describe it even as anti-troops, although it was certainly anti-military. Basically, it said that when you train people to kill and then you give them practice doing it, the odds that otherwise ordinary people will get in touch with their inner sociopath go way up. We had an argument about it here last week, with Tim taking roughly the same position as the dKos diarist, and there was never any suggestion that Tim was criticizing the troops; on the contrary, he got challenged for letting them off the hook for their actions.
Punchy
I’m absolutely amazed this doesn’t happen more often. Get some nutter to open an account, fire off some xenophobic, racist, hate-filled screed, and have it up long enough for other clued-in righties to screen save it and claim that the left hates illegalgayabortionlovingfagislamofacists, too.
Like going to some guy’s house you hate and smearing an odd shade of lipstick on some shirts in his closet–the damage is done long before an explanation can be offered, if it’s even believed.
Dave
I’m waiting for retraction and/or correction from LGF and Ace now.
jg
Love the lights. LOL
Paul L.
Join the club, I questioned the point of view at Crooks and Liars and got banned.
It also appears that the Democrats want to support the troops but do not want to hear from them unless they are anti-war.
Democrats Snub Vets for Freedom: Look What You Made Me Do!
The Other Steve
That’s not entirely true. It took me many years to realize this, but… it’s all in the tone.
If you come on there like Cassidy the concern troll and write about how much the left is like blah, and they’re all st00pid because they don’t listen to me, blah blah… you’ll get banned pretty quick.
However, if you engage in serious discussion and say something like “Have you considered the possibility that…” then you do fine.
Now there are a few areas you simply do not touch. I/P diaries for instance are bad. Oh they happen, but they always turn into flamefests.
Also as far as humor, if you make it clear you are being funny, people do appreciate it. I think I’ve written a number of comments now about how John Edward is the only legitimate candidate in our time of need because he can speak to the dead.
The Other Steve
Paul L. would question the laws of gravity and then complain when he didn’t fly up in the air.
The Other Steve
Do Republicans want to hear frmo anti-war vets?
Punchy
What’s “I/P”?
Cassidy
You all haven’t proven me wrong yet.
Interesting thought, though, from a conversation last night:
If returning comabt vets ever decided that crime was more lucrative than serving your country, the law enforcement community would face a big problem.
canuckistani
I’ve said it before: Dkos are going to get reamed either for being kooky nutbars, or lockstepping hiveminders with no tolerance for dissent. It’s a lose either way, if you care about the opinions of anyone on LGF.
Jake
So let’s see. This country is being run by people who regularly lie, deny that they lie, screw things up, deny that they screwed things up and when finally backed against the wall, retreat into the passive voice to make it seem that these things just happen and it isn’t their fault, realy.
But that’s perfectly fine and normal and right and only an unhinged moonbat would dare object or even comment.
However, if a fucking blog does anything the least bit suspicious or offensive it is duty of all red-blooded Americans to get their pants in a wad and scream blue murder.
Pathetic.
Heh.
Zifnab
Well, relatively speaking. There’s still no shortage of people waiting to tell you that your possibility is wrong/stupid/misinformed/etc. with varying levels of civility. I’ve gotten flamed once or twice, but I’ve never been banned – or even warned of being banned – so I don’t see the whinefest over it.
In the end, I’m not too worried. When you make outrageous claims like “DKos is run by the KKK Hitler Youth!” you just jack up traffic in the short run. When people actually arrive and realize its not a giant cesspool of verbal filth, they might even stick around, and you increase traffic in the long run. All these whine-blogs and O’Reily-wannabes manage to accomplish is bumping Kos’s numbers.
Face
Holy. Fucking. Crap.
John Cole. Posts a diary. On DailyKos.
I no longer fear being burned in the pits of hell for my many sins….the friggin place just completely froze over.
Cole on Kos. Just doesn’t compute. Just doesn’t.
Keifus
I think this was my last post there. I got banned not long afterwards for enjoying someone else’s humor and saying so. I guess I should say that irony’s their weak suit, or anything else that turns a contextual eye in their own direction. I’d delete my diary if I knew how.
Halffasthero
When you have nothing to lose, you have everything to gain. Having tours extended ad-infinatum leaves you with plenty of opportunity to consider your options. That whole country is problably one giant black market by now.
I don’t know this of course, it is just an educated guess (before anyone bites my head off).
tBone
Paul’s jackalopes are too feeble to even make out of the pen these days. Sad, really.
John Cole
I know this is probably a complete shock to many of you, but I was posting on the Daily Kos before it was the Daily Kos as you now know it. It used to be a real small site with a couple hundred hits aday, and folks like me, Yglesias, Josh Trevino, Steve Gilliard and many others that went on to be Kos front pagers mixed it up in the comments every day.
Then the site exploded, became a liberal site for liberals, and I stopped commenting. The current account John not Juan Cole is approximately three years old, however, because I kept an account just to make reading DKOS easier (you can sort diaries, etc.).
Long story short- I was posting on the DKOS before 99% of you ever heard about it.
The Left
… it’s a fair cop.
4jkb4ia
Keifus posted an I/P diary. That was a mistake already.
Dreggas
MS 13
Evinfuilt
The place really needs more diaries like that, its become too stagnant to allow any real thoughts. I sense a giant mob mentality that makes it worth only browsing, then moving on.
Cassidy
Generally speaking, yes.
Cassidy
?
This conversation started after Killpoint, last night.
Cassidy
Ah never mind…forgot about them.
Keifus
OK, figured it out.
It was just that one post. As for DK, there are better ways to blog anyway.
Face
…dropping names like a wide-eyed 9 year-old…I can just picture John with a Lambert jersey, cheetos (cuz back then, he was a righty), and sweaty brow punching out mad treatises on how Mike Moore was the anti-christ and Cindy Sheehan was far too fat to be in Playboy…
Too funny. Had no idea.
EdTheRed
Actually, I think they’re “25%ers” now…
Pb
Yep; I only heard about them because / after they switched to Scoop.
ET
I consider myself left of center, and I wouldn’t have even known about what was going on a Kos if I hadn’t read about it here. And want to know why? Because I don’t read Kos. Yes those on the right, not everyone on the left reads Kos. I know it is a surprise and you heads are about to explode, but it is the truth.
Zifnab
I always pegged you as a RedState reject. One of the guys who slowly got kicked to the curb by the “No Kool-aid and no FOX News makes Homer go something something…” crowd.
But the fact that you were an old Kossack before Kossacks were cool somehow jives with your current online persona a lot more than when I started visiting this site two years ago.
Dreggas
Mara Salvatrucha 13.
They started in L.A. but due to policies regarding illegal immigrants who were gang members they were often caught then deported back to their home countries in South America, especially El Salvador. There they learned the art of war and military tactics etc. during the various civil wars. They have spread since covering most of the U.S and even popping up in Europe not to mention the heavy population down in SA.
Of course our own military has lowered standards of recruitment to the point where they are allowing self-avowed gang members to join. While I would applaud those who joined to “go straight” this is a double edged sword. Especially if they are only joining to learn how to apply military type strategies and tactics to gang life.
Dave
I rarely do either, the inmates have been running the asylum for a while and I find most of the front pagers boring this time around.
cain
I don’t read DailyKos either. I prefer to read particular people like Digby, John/Tim and various others.
cain
Rusty Shackleford
I don’t really read Daily Kos either, unless re-directed to them. If I do read it, I only find interest in Markos’ posts, and Bill from Portland is kinda funny. Most days I just pass over the link in my favorites.
Cassidy
I was under the impression they started from a US trained commando group of the Salvadoran Army and then went rogue. Or am I thinking of one of the Mexican Cartels?
John Cole
I was contributor at Red State for a long time. I left a while back.
Dreggas
Occasionally I read and post there but in general I try to avoid doing it that often because, while I like a lot of the people there, there are many that just piss me off.
LarryB
I’ll bet this guy is available right now.
Dreggas
Nope they started among the salvadoran immigrant community in Los Angeles. There was a big Nat’l Geographic special on them a while back that interviewed one of the founders.
They spread like a virus picking up members from the various factions of the Slavadoran wars and such.
Cassidy
Here’s the problem you have though. When the vocal minority outshouts the majority, with anti-military crap, you allow the perception that it’s a one size fits all mentality.
It’s the same problem the Republicans have gone trhough with the Christian Right. While they are realistically differnt, they are percieved as the same and it has eventually led to where we are today and the continual implosion of the Republican party.
Face
Damn, what kind of shower and how many different types of cleanser does one need after working for Red State? I’m guessing that required a shower in pure bleach, followed by one hell of a defoliation accompained by a dunk in 3% H2O2, wrapped by copious splashings of Hai Karate.
LarryB
The minority that’s doing the shouting is in Wingnuttia. You’ve been framed.
Zifnab
Red State wasn’t always the loony bin it is today. LGF also used to be a bicycling blog, and Rush Limbaugh got his start as a football commentator who threw verbal punches at politicos as kinda a comic after-thought.
The times, they are a’changin’.
Dreggas
The problem is when people go out and cherry pick things then try to frame those things as the majorities view. Unlike with the republicans, or I should say the republican party and what passes for it, the minority of dems are not the face of the dems, they’re the fringe and treated as such. The republicans on the other hand are their “base” that is the christian right zealots, they have sold their soul to the dobsonites, hell not one of them can even stand up and defend logic or reason. One of their candidates is facing an uphill battle to win the primary BECAUSE THE BASE THINKS HE’S IN A CULT!
tBone
Sometimes it helps if you RTFA:
Cassidy
People will always do that. That isn’t a trade secret. So why aren’t measures taken to stop it? And the fringe left is not treated as the fringe. They were when convenient (last few years), but that isn’t the case any longer.
I was referring to John’s post. I understood the post well enough without visiting Kos…I’ve had my shower today. I was referring to the general state of politicl discussion, or lack thereof, in this country.
Cassidy
Sometimes Tbone, it helps if you ask for clarification before cursing at someone. Call me crazy…
Punchy
Someone’s got a mancrush on Senor Cole over at Talkleft.com….
Dreggas
And just who constitutes a leader of this country who is on the fringe left? Who is it that we on the left are taking seriously?
Teak111
As I recall Kos’ bio, didn’t he serve in the Military for a coupla years. What about Charles Johnson, did he server his country?
Face
Are you kidding? As in Cannondales and Kestrels? They went from Bontrager to Bushco? How deep is the sickness if one goes from something so worthwhile to something so vile?
Zifnab
See, I’ll weigh in on this because it meets my stupidity threshold, even though I know Cassidy won’t respond.
Go visit the DKos website and you’ll note the right hand panel has 40+ diaries up at any given time. This doesn’t not even consider the main page, which contains fifteen full articles by various mainstay contributors. One of the links on the right hand panel contained a diary that was critical of the military, and was quickly taken down due to protest on all sides. This one link, among 40, on a single liberal website, among hundreds, is the “vocal minority” which you believe is outshouting the majority.
If I may be so bold as to ask, what the fuck are you talking about? I mean, if you think this guy is bad news, you must crap your pants at the merest mention of Pat Robertson. That man has his own TV Station!!!1!one! for christ’s sake. But I guess this is another case of “the Democrats do it too, only worse.”
Dreggas
yeah I think he served in his home country, or maybe it was here I can’t remember.
tBone
“RTFA” counts as cursing at someone? You’re not going to last long on the Intertubes, my delicate little flower.
So was I.
Bubblegum Tate
It really is crazy–and something for a strong-stomached sociologist to explore, I’m sure. LGF went from a blog about scenic bike rides and jazz guitar to an “I hate Muslims”-focused hate site in no time flat. El Chazzmo himself is quite the specimen.
Pug
I used to read Kos way back, but I hardly ever look at it anymore. Kos did serve in the U.S. Army. Johnson, not so much. Shocker, I know.
Kos was in the 4th Infantry Division, Steadfast and Loyal, out of Fort Hood, Texas. He is originally from El Salvador, I believe.
Wilfred
I read that LGF has already been visited by the FBI a few times for the ‘Kill the Muslims’ rants in the comments section. There’s a site that monitors all the drivel that comes out of there but I lost the address.
RedState used to be a decent, intelligent place, then it got dumbed down into a bowling alley bar on league night. Some of the people who post there have to be spoofs. In any case, I blame the media.
Field Marshal Cassidy is a welcome relief, btw.
Cassidy
I’m an NCO…not an officer wilfred. And we don’t have that rank in the US Military.
Zifnab, I wasn’t specifically referring that article. I was taking a point from John’s post and starting a general discussion. And no, I won’t go to Kos, just like I don’t go to LGF. Too much blind belief for my tastes.
Tbone, I was just making a point about etiquette. Take from it what you will.
Dreggas…a few of our POTUS candidates hold some pretty far left and Socialist beliefs. That’s as prominent as you get.
Chad N. Freude
Well, sort of similar, but remember that the Republican strategists (Rove, Rove, Rove, & Rove) encouraged the Xtian Right to make as much noise as possible and waved the resultant cucifixion-bloody shirt. Oh, and the postulated outshouted Republican majority didn’t exist (unless, of course, they were the more-silent-than-ever majority).
jg
You mean releasing a jackalope.
LarryB
Hmm, “Far left”, compared to what? Abbie Hoffman might disagree. I can’t remember hearing “property is theft” being used in a political conversation recently. Ditto, “Socialist”. Compared to HMOs, Universal health care is looking more and more like plain common sense. Assuming of course, that it’s not administrated by a group that thinks “effective government agency” is an oxymoron.
Dreggas
And every single republican candidate (short of Ron Paul) is doing their best to fellate holy wood and I don’t mean the cross kind. Now again I ask who are these leftists whom we are supporting oh so much and what positions do they hold that are so “socialist” or “far left”.
jrg
Jane Fonda revealed as Bigfoot. Bill O’reilly wins Pulitzer. Liberal bat-baby found in cave. UFO’s: intergalactic visitors, or leftist conspiracy?
ConservativelyLiberal
I was a Kos member for about two years, but I finally quit due to the high level of intolerance for opposing ideas and the lack of humor of the more extreme elements there. When posting something that was not in the mindset of the majority there, I had to go over it again and again to take great care that I would not unintentionally offend someone. I was still troll rated a few times, but I wore that as a badge of honor…lol! It got to the point that writing a post there was like navigating a minefield blindfolded. I just got tired of it as it was not worth the effort.
But I do have to say that they are far more tolerant of opposing ideas than Moe “Sparky” Lane and the others at RedNeckState. I have considered joining there more than a few times, but each time I came to the conclusion that I would just be banned after my first post and I did not want to waste the time doing it. Anything that is not in lockstep with the party line is a bannable offense, and those bloviating idiots think they are the cream of the crop in the small world of the right.
I like BJ because it seems to fit right between the two points, and I feel much more comfortable posting here. I am not trying to change the world with my posts, I just want to put my opinion out in the blogosphere and hope it is heard. I can care less if I am agreed or disagreed with.
The fact that John has been with RS and DK seems to fit his style here. He does not live on Moonbase Alpha, and he does not like the electric kool-aid acid test…lol
Cassidy
Heh…
Ryan S.
Ahh, yes B4B is always good for a laugh. I mean seriously they’re still fighting against Heliocentrism.
Dreggas
O/T but:
Greenwald throws down the gauntlet H/t Sully
ConservativelyLiberal
John, you bad bad RINO…
Now you got the elephants crapping on you. The lowly RINO gets no respect these days.
Wilfred
Re: Greenwald throws down the gauntlet:
Ok, Is it un-American to call General Petraeus a pussy if he doesn’t accept Greenwald’s request for an interview? Will all the troops curl up into a fetal position and feel abandoned or something? Am I a bad person for asking these questions?
caustics
What ConservativelyLiberal said.
Plus – I never would have heard of Hola Fruta otherwise. Tonight, I’m thinking Pomegranate & Blueberry. Good stuff.
The Other Steve
It is, admittedly, a minefield. But I actually find it to be a good experience, as it teaches one how to communicate with a variety of different people in an intelligent manner. Seriously. It’s been an incredibly useful experience for me, not just from a politics perspective, but just from an employment/office politics perspective. I don’t do many diaries, mainly because while I have great ideas in my head, I seem to be unable to write them down. Perhaps that is the next learning experience.
I was banned at redstate after about 3 posts. It was damn fast, and I was not near as offensive as the righties are on dKos.
I’m a trusted user over at dKos and I’ll go through the hidden comments occasionally uprating the ones trolled for disagreement. It’s rare to see that, by and large most of them are rightwing trolls who sound even more obnoxious than Cassidy if you can believe that.
Chad N. Freude
There is no need to accept Greenwald’s offer. Petraeus has made his case on Hewitt’s program and there is nothing more to add. nice of Mr. Greenwald to ask, though. Now the General has to go fight a war or prepare a report or someting.
Tee on dog: Santorum’s
nightmarewet dream. Romney’s dog’s vacationwear.Think the Sun is hot (nudge, nudge, wink, wink)? Get a load of the thong!
Is there any significance to the fact that of eight items on offer only these two are identified as “Made in USA”?
Legislate against the Sun — it melts snowflakes.
Heliocentrism is only a theory.
Oh, God, I have to stop or I’ll go mad. Or Republican, which is the same thing.
carpeicthus
Why does it make me feel old that I remember John Cole’s posts on Atrios’s board before DKos existed? That was only a few years ago. Net time is weird.
Psycheout
Chad N. Freude, which items of Heliocentrism gear are you getting for your friends and family?
I’m getting the clock. It’s always time to sock it to the helioleftists!
jrg
In case of rapture, these panties will be unmanned.
The Other Steve
Newt Gingrich says he might run for President. He’s relying on the “I think I’m a whole lot smarter than everybody else” demographic for their votes.
Finally! A Presidential candidate Cassidy can support.
ConservativelyLiberal
Nothing there is of interest to me. Now if they had a heliocopter, that might catch my interest… ;)
Hmmm, I wonder why they have not made a deal with Helio to release a model that mutters their catchphrase when it rings. Now that would be something!
Psycheout
That’s not bad, CL. I’ll look into that.
caustics
As someone alluded to upthread, RS today is what’s left after the purges: Shiavo, Miers, Katrina, Dubai Ports Deal (my own personal and final BLAM episode) and lately, anybody who supports anyone except for Fred Thompson. Or Mitt Romney. Or Rudy G.
In that they are a microcosm of a continuing Neocon meltdown, I find it helpful to think of them of having the snarling, self preserving instinct of a trapped animal trying to chew its own leg off.
To me, the problem with dkos is OMFG overwhelming volume. For the most part, I agree with them. But, to be honest, I can’t even remember what my nick was there.
skeeter
caustics, this is what I don’t get.
Fred Thompson hasn’t run anything anywhere near as complicated as a Law & Order: Ad Infinitum craft services table in his saggy-jowled life. He is, by all accounts, an elderly slacker.
Mittster might as well be handing out a tasseled menu of photos and fee-for-service prices, and the entire state of MA is glad to see the back of him.
And Rudy G—where do I start? Ask any New Yorker. He was, if anything, more dictatorial and authoritarian than GWB. (And he’s got a brain, so he doesn’t even need a Cheney.) Whatever goodwill he gained on 9/11 was totally shredded when he proposed suspending elections and term limits to allow him to run the city indefinitely. Just until, y’know, we were okay again. Whenever that was. The city, rightly, told him to fuck off.
And these are the GOP’s icons? What the holy hell has gone wrong with the Republican party?
jake
How to spot a Spoof Part XVII:
Commenter A asks a straight-forward, easily understood question.
Spoof replies, but completely fails answer the question.
Note: This could also be How to Spot Someone with Zero Reading Comp. Skills, but I’m feeling charitable.
ConservativelyLiberal
Whoa! I run The Guild of Slackers for an online game, and I have to take offense at that. Fred may be a lot of things, but we slackers have standards (of some sort) and Fred is not covered by our Guild… ;)
Other Steve: I agree with you that learning the balancing act in communicating with others is good, and DK does give a person that (if they are so inclined to do it). My problem is that I just can’t stand stupidity in motion, and having to answer what is obvious to most people gets pretty annoying (and tedious too). I like to take the time to respond to serious questions, but far too many of the questioners are just trying to score their points. This drags the conversation down as it never accomplishes anything, just more poo flinging.
So you lasted about three posts at RS? That is better than I could ever do. They would declare “MOBY!” and “BLAM” me with my first one, just for the reason I stated above.
I guess I do not tolerate fools well, and RS is plumb full of them. I do like to read there though, it is like watching a slow motion train derailment that keeps playing over and over in a loop.
Some of the regulars would be more entertaining if I knew that they did not believe what they say, but the problem is that they are dead serious. They need fresh blood as all they have over there now is an inbred echo chamber. Any idea that is outside their defined frame of reference is quickly squelched.
It seems that they believe that they are deep thinkers, but they are more like a neverending series of sound bites. A right wing circle jerk, so to say.
HunterBlackLuna
Double Hack!
Triple Hack!
Hacktacular!
Hack Frenzy!
Hackjoy!
Hackamenjaro!
… yes, I’m a Halo nerd. Oh well. ^^ It’s still such great fun.
The Other Steve
I got an answer for that too…
Ignore ’em.
MayBee
How do you know the Kilitary guy was a wingnut?
Psycheout
He’s speaking “truth to power,” MayBee. Do not question the last principled conservative in bloggoland, because that would not be arguing in good faith.
How honest of you to ask a rational question of the ‘reality-based’ community. You should be ashamed.
Psycheout
See his “Bush Sucks” post over at Daily Kos, MayBee.
It’s typical fare of the John Coles of the Left.
Paul L.
So I can ignore anyone who points to this blog entry: Why the Truth in the Duke Lacrosse Case Matters as proof that the left did not rush to judgment in the Duke Lacrosse Rape hoax?
Dreggas
Yeah I laid the trap, he took the bait.
John S.
Indeed, much in the same way that any sane person ignores the ravings of anyone that thinks that blogs are “proof that the left” does anything.
Idiot.
Cassidy
Nah…just got tired of arguing with brick walls. If you can’t see the socilaist, wealth re-distributing tendencies of Obama and Edwards, then you are truly blind.
Paul L.
I’ll correct it for you.
So I can ignore anyone who points to this blog entry: Why the Truth in the Duke Lacrosse Case Matters as proof that the left [side of the blogosphere] did not rush to judgment in the Duke Lacrosse Rape hoax?
I’ll also include the New York Times with them.
HunterBlackLuna
So helping the poor instead of taking a collective shit on them and their families is ‘socialist’?
Dreggas
Oh c’mon the best you can do is Edwards (who’s losing by the way) and Obama (who has republicans ready to vote for him) then you really are off the talking points I mean Kucinich doesn’t even get a gratutitous nod? Or Gravel? Or everyone’s favorite Hillary?
I can’t even give you an A for effort. And if demanding honesty and real answers to real questions is being a brick wall then I’m happy to be one.
Cassidy
Yes, wealth re-distribution is socialism. All the pretty feel good words don’t make it different.
Edwards and Obama are liberals. Nice guys, I’m sure, but liberals nonetheless. If Republicans vote for Obama, then in all likelihood they are picking the lesser of two evils, to them. Kucinich isn’t really a candidate. He stands around and says thing, but the day he’s taken seriously is the day I turn in my voter registration card. Hillary is a politician. Her stances are largely self-serving and more moderate to ensure her electability.
Dreggas
Edwards is a populist. His two Americas schtick didn’t work last time and won’t work this time either, as for Obama liberal sure but there isn’t a damn thing wrong with being liberal last I looked, hell most democrats are liberal. But none of the ones you mentioned are even close to the leftist bogeymen you’d make them out to be. Hell name me one policy that makes Obama a socialist? Oh and the republicans for Obama aren’t choosing the lesser of two evils they like what he has to say given his fiscal responsibility and belief in our civil liberties.
John S.
I guess Jefferson was a socialist, then. After all, he favored a tiered system of taxation (to “promote the general welfare”) which is little more than wealth re-distribution:
Why do you hate our founding fathers?
Jake
You’re taking part in some sort of Catch and Release program I see. Do you put tags on their ears, fit them with a radio collar or use some sort of subcutaneous radio transmitter?
Dreggas
Yeah I like to study them in their native habitat.
MayBee
I have to agree that the DailyKos “Bush Sucks” diary makes no point at all. He is saying something every Kossack agrees with. Furthermore, he links it to the post here which castigates wingnuts and asks them not to delete it. Not only is it not deleted or even ignored, but McJoan, one of those who officially speak for Kos, stops by to thank John for having their back. What does that prove? That Kossacks won’t delete diaries that stroke them and bash Bush. Shocking.
Having said that, I agree with the larger point that the diary doesn’t speak for the Kos community or the left in general. Without asking the poster’s motives (was he trying to set them up? Or did he think he had confederates there?), it is impossible to say what his motives were.
Both John and the people he criticizes jumped to the conclusion convenient for them.
Cassidy
I don’t like lazy people who want someone else’s money because in their twisted minds, they ahve somehow decided they deserve it. If you want someone else’s earned income…go out and get it. If you can’t because you’re not qualified…grow a spine and become qualified. Too easy.
jake
You must spend a lot of time in Spoofsylvania, PA and under The Bridges of Madison Co.
Oh well, make sure all of your shots are up to date and carry identification in case a giant jackalope gets ya.
John S.
Too simplistic is more like it.
The principle of FYIGM (Fuck You I Got Mine) while seemingly captivating based on its humanitarian merits does little to contend with the rationale behind the altruistic notion of ‘promoting the general welfare’. When it comes to refuting Jefferson with your little screed, it appears he is out of your league. Next time, try to keep it in the same ballpark.
mclaren
You know what? There’s something to be said for the suggestion that if stupid ignorant lethally gullible young people didn’t keep volunteering to fight in this illegal immoral war of aggression, the entire war would shut down fast.
It’s true that the enablers have a whole lot to answer for — the Tom Friedmans and the Fareed Zakarias and the Bill Kristols and the Michael Ledeens, should all be tried for aiding and abetting a criminal war of aggression. Put ’em in the dock. Try ’em for conspiracy to aid and abet war crimes. Hang ’em all. Every one of the ignorant kooks who assured us that it would be a cakewalk, that the troops would be home by Christmas, that our soldiers would be greeted with parades and flowers, that the oil in Iraq would pay for the war, that 165,000 troops were enough… All the lies and gibberish and delusion that made it possible for otherwise sensible people to feel not completely insane for allowing this grotesque debacle to happen. People like Tom Friedman should be paraded through the streets and the parents of dead U.S. soliders should line up to throw garbage and feces on Friedman’s face while they march him to the gallows to hang him.
But in the end, war requires soldiers. Without boots on the ground, it all stops. And any 18-year-old who stupidly and ignorantly volunteered to go to Iraq after, say, June 2004, doesn’t deserve my pity. Beyond a certain point of stupidity, I stop sympathizing. The pundits and neocons enabled this hideous war, but the ignorant stupid kids who keep volunteering to fight in it continue to fuel this war. They’re continuing to volunteer to fight in Iraq right now, today. That’s insane. Without new recruits to provide cannon fodder, this war would grind to a screeching halt fast.
Unfortunately, because of the dishonesty of our leaders, a lot of the U.S. soliders stuck in Iraq are not stupid ignorant kids too gullible to know any better, but 30 and 40 year old family men who got called back into the National Guard and had their enlistment extended through 3, 4 or even 5 tours. These people aren’t there by choice and they deserve huge amounts of sympathy. But the Pat Tillmans of the world deserve nothing but our contempt. The Pat Tillmans of the world are assholes who thought it would be fun to play cowboys and indians with live ammo. And when they get their asses shot off by friendly fire, they learn a harsh lesson wayyyyyyy too late about what war is really is.
War isn’t some fun exciting game. War isn’t patriotism and brass band music. War isn’t “serving your country” and “doing your duty.” War is your own troops shooting you in the face five times by accident while you convulse on the ground screaming like a little girl trying to stuff your intestines back in your stomach after an IED blasted your humvee apart because the corrupt military contractors couldn’t be bothered to properly armor the vehicle and pocketed the appropriation money instead.
There’s a real goddamn good reason why the military (prior to the current Iraq debacle) wouldn’t accept recruits older than age 26. You know why? It’s because people over the age of 26 have too much common sense to volunteer to deliberately put themselves in a situation where, when your platoon sergeant discovers there’s a sniper in that building up ahead, he tells, “Okay, Private Cole, you walk on out there.” Because when the sniper shoots you in the head, and your head explodes in a cloud of skull fragments and brain matter and jawbone and vitreous humour, the rest of your platoon will be able to figure out where the sniper is and kill him by blowing apart his hiding place with 50 cals and m60s and lawes rockets.
If you think joining the army to fight in a modern mechanized post-Korean-war conflict has anything to do with “serving your country” or “doing your duty” or “making your fmaily proud,” you need a refresher course in the destructive power of modern technology. The modern solider is just a cog in a big goddamn hi-tech machine and it will chop him up like hamburger with no more thought than when you step on a worm on a sidewalk after it rains. Your lieutenant his superior care about one thing in today’s army, and one thing only — getting promoted. So when you get burned alive with napalm from American F18s because some ex-gang-member who was told by an L.A. judge “Son, you have two choices: jail, or the marine corps” screwed up and got the coordinates wrong, your lieutenant and his superior will cover their asses and lie about it and pin medals on the pfcs who f***ed up and killed you by mistake.
Modern mechanized war is an efficient machine-operated slaughterhouse. There’s no more “honor” in dying in a modern mechanized war than there is in the deer dying when it gets hit by a Peterbilt truck on I95. Soldiers and insurgents die in a modern mechanized war without ever seeing what killed them. They get torn apart by IEDs, they watch thir legs get blown off and go spinning through the air when they step on a concealed mine, they look down at what used to be their chest and realize that there’s a hole blasted in their ribcage the size of volleyball because an RPG just blew up inside their humvee, an RPG fired by someone they never even saw. Modern mechanized war means that when an insurgent starts firing 20 mm shells at your platoon, you suddenly can’t see anything anymore because your best friend’s head just exploded and sprayed you with his brains. You have to wipe a bunch of red goo and stuff that looks like cottage cheese (but is actually his brains) off your face just too see the mine your humvee just hit — the one that just sent shrapnel into your intestines. Modern mechanized war means that when you call in an airstrike, there’s a reasonable chance that some pfc who flunked math and volunteered for the army at age 17 will screw up the coordinates even with GPS and laser targeting and infrared strobes, because out here in the real world everything isn’t as neat and pretty as it is in the movies, and your own unit may wind up getting chopped to pieces when those miniguns from friendly blackhawks strafe the position. This kind of evil stuff happens in modern mechanized war. This kind of evil stuff happens all the time. The kind of machine-operated slaughterhouse that is modern war is something no sensible person wants to have anything to do with unless America is in direct specific danger of attack from the enemy.
Unfortunately, too many dumb ignorant gullible 20-year-olds have played Tom Clancy’s Rainbow Six or Gears Of War on a hi-def plasma screen and they think it’s just bitchin’. Wow, what fun. Here’s a news flash: when mini gun slugs from your own air support rip through your spine and you’re screaming like a wild animal with pain you never imagined could exist, while you crawl across the ground away from the white phosophorus that’s burning your buddies alive because the air strike went wrong, you can’t reboot the XBox 360 and start over again.
rachel
Oh, fuck you. The “Pat Tillmans” joined up after 9-11 because they wanted to protect and serve their country.
Cassidy
That’s a lot of talking points in one sentence. It’s like you’re channeling the MoveOn newsletter. I’m glad I stopped reading at this point.
mclaren
Thank you for telling that cowardly lie.
The Pat Tillmans of this world joined up after 9/11 becuase they abandoned their duty as American citizens — to keep an eagle eye out for bullshit and lies from the corrupt pols who steal elections to ooze their way into office.
It’s great when people like you show their cowardice, because it destroys your credibility a whole lot more effectively than anything I could see. Real courage involves standing up to the mindless mob braying for war and saying, “Wait a minute — what’s going on here? Something’s not right.”
But you didn’t have that kind of courage. And neither did the Pat Tillmans of the world. They took the easy way out — “I was only following orders.” Turn your brain off and march at The Leader’s orders, no matter how pointless or how stupid or how counterproductive.
Why don’t you just cut to the chase and emigrate to North Korea?
ConservativelyLiberal
I have to say that this Cassidy is something else, and if he is representative of our military then we are in a world of hurt. Twisted is not nearly descriptive enough for him, psychotic is a better description. I hope he is not in the military, but is rather a pretender. An X-box warrior. Even then, he is still one psychotic sicko.
What is sickening is that the military is discharging injured and PTSD soldiers and saying that they are suffering from a pre-existing condition, yet this piece of crap is still serving (if he actually ever did). Cassidy, if you really are in the service, you need professional help. Right away, like last year. If you are indeed for real, people like you are one of the reasons that the Iraqi people have turned against the occupation there. You are one of the problems, not part of a solution. You are making the military look like shit, and I wonder if that is your intention. That is why I am not so sure that you are for real.
Don’t even waste your time firing back what I am sure is something that you will think is a witty retort while breaking your arm patting yourself on the back about it. Nothing you can say deserves a response from me. If I were John, I would run an IP trace and send the info and a copy of this and other postings by you to the DoD. Cassidy is one troubled person, and if he is indeed in the service then they need to do something about it.
Scary shit…
jake
WTF?
Looks like fighting them over there so we don’t have to fight them over here is working re-e-e-a-l well.
Pick one. If it is the latter the door is that way. Water is wet; Fire is hot; The Terror Rainbow is set for Yellow and … They Want 2 Kill Us.
Next?
John S.
I dunno if he’s troubled, but he sure does have some funny ideas about how things are and/or should be. All I know is anyone who is a staunch advocate of the FYIGM school of thought is misguided to say the least.
John S.
I dunno if he’s troubled, but he sure does have some funny ideas about how things are and/or should be. All I know is anyone who is a staunch advocate of the FYIGM school of thought is misguided to say the least.
John S.
I dunno if he’s troubled, but he sure does have some funny ideas about how things are and/or should be. All I know is anyone who is a staunch advocate of the FYIGM school of thought is misguided to say the least.
rachel
Ah! You’re one of the “25% mirror-group”: just as pig-ignorant and knee-jerk partisan as the 25% that still support Bush, but on the other end of the left-right Bell curve. When right-wing idiots want to show how stupid and disgusting the left wing is, you people are the ones they point to. It would greatly benefit the public discourse if all you left- and right-wing ‘tards were packed off to special Ed. classes together.
FYI, I never supported the Iraq invasion; I knew it was a dumb idea and totally unnecessary back when they started talking about it. I just prefer to blame the people responsible for the mess, not victims of it.
TenguPhule
Shorter Cassidy: I got mines, so F.U.
With brilliance like that running the executive branch, it’s no wonder the American dollar is now moving towards toilet paper.
TenguPhule
Shorter Cassidy: I got mines, so F.U.
With brilliance like that running the executive branch, it’s no wonder the American dollar is now moving towards toilet paper.
mclaren
Rachel remarked:
You just don’t believe in personal responsibility, do you, Rachel? You “prefer to blame the people responsible for the mess, not victims of it.” That’s it, point the finger at everyone else…anyone else.
It’s always someone else’s fault, isn’t it? Pat Tillman’s family sues the government instead of taking personal responsibilty for their bad decision in encouraging their son to go off to a botched war. It’s always them, not us. They did it, never us. We as citizens of a democracy never need to take individual responsibility for our own actions, do we? No, we just march on command and die as ordered and then if it turns out badly…why, we point our fingers at all the scapegoats we can dream up, so fast you can see our fingers blurring.
News flash, Rachel: America is a democracy. That means the American people are in charge. And when things go wrong, the American citizens who made bad decisions have to take personal responsibility for their own actions.
Now, I know the idea that someone should be personally responsible for their own actions fills you with fear and loathing, Rachel… But that’s just too bad. Because the Founding Fathers of our democracy didn’t envision a nation of robots obligated to vomit patriotic slogans and knee-jerk march into war whenever some wardheeler in high office screamed sound bites. Thomas Jefferson and James Madison and George Washington constantly emphasized the need for the average American citizne to keep close watch on the pols we elect, and evaluate their claims carefully and skeptically.
But the source to which I look for the aids which alone can supply my deficiencies is in the well-tried intelligence and virtue of my fellow-citizens… — James Madison, first inaugural address, 4 March 1809
As for the rest of your little tantrum, it’s the usual ad hominem McCarthy-style smear campaign. “Pig-ignorant,” “‘tard,” “Special Ed classes,” and the rest of the standard envenomed verbal attacks. Change the record, Rachel — those particular lies have gotten old. They no longer work.
I recognize that the idea of an American citizen having to take personal responsibility for his own actions terrifies you to the point where you fill your panties. You, in turn, should recognize that it’s a good thing Barry Goldwater isn’t here to listen to you call yourself a conservative — he’d die all over again, of shame.
rachel
How about this: right after “some anonymous wingnut” writes an anti-military screed on DKOS to give the the rest of his wingnut friends something to jerk their knobs over, mclaren shows up here, and posts more of the same.
Coincidence? I think not.
In fact, mclaren, I doubt you really believe a single thing you wrote; you just think that’s what lefties like me believe. Yes, I am a liberal. Deal with it. ‘Tard.
mclaren
That’s your first lie.
Provide evidence that saying people ought to take responsibility for their actions when they volunteer for military duty in a democracy constitutes “an anti-military screed” — or stand revealed as a compulsive pathological liar and a character assassin.
That’s your second lie. Provide evidence that I’m part of some sort of a crackpot conspiracy, or stand revealed as a wacked-out nut case and tin-foil-hat-wearing fringe lunatic.
That’s your third lie. Provide evidence I don’t believe what I’m saying, or stand reveelad as a kook gibbering drivel.
And that’s your fourth lie. Judging from your online tantrums, you’re an authoritarian power-worshipper who admires and adores knee-jerk self-styled patriots who march blindly off to war regardless of how unjust or how foolish the war may be, never bothering to question their glorious leaders.
That’s not liberalism, Rachel. That’s the creed of a craven toady of the People’s Republic of Communist China. Why do you even bother to rail against personal responsibility and skeptical critical thinking as duties of a citizen in a democracy, Rachel? Just leave America and become a citizen of Communist China, where you’ll be treated to all the glorification of The Almighty State Whose Edicts Must Never Be Questioned and all the magnificently inspiring flag-waving and all the thrillingly martial formation-marching and all the Glorious Leader adoration your little heart ardently desires.
rachel
Oh mclaren, now I see that calling you a ‘tard is an injustice to retarded people.
To all the retards who read this blog; I am deeply sorry to have compared you to that dingleberry.
(I hope I will not have to apologize the dingleberries next ☹ .)
mclaren
Is that all you’ve got?
Name-calling?
You really don’t have a single valid argument to explain why we ought to admire gullble 20-somethings who, even now, today, foolishly volunteer to help prolong the worst military blunder in American history, do you?
As long as someone waves a flag, you think that’s admirable, don’t you? You just cheer yourself hoarse when someone voluntarily marches off to war, don’t you, regardless of the folly of the war or the mindlessness of it or the craziness of it.
Keep it up, Rachel.
Keep screaming hysterical names at anyone who points out ideas that you’re uncomfortable with, but can’t come up with a single fact or piece of logic to refute.
Ideas like: a person who volunteers to join the army after everything we’ve learned about the situation in Iraq isn’t a helpless victim — he made a choice, and now he has to live with the consequences.
rachel
I’m hysterical? Yes, with laughter. :-D
mclaren
Laugh at this:
http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20070723&s=diarist072307
That’s what war is like. Want to cheer at flags? Cheer at that.
rachel
No thanks, I already read it.
(And to all you dingleberries out there, you’re just average little turds. This mclaren, guy? Wow.)
ConservativelyLiberal
rachel, when you toss out ‘tard’ as an insult, I have problems with not only that, but that you portray yourself as a liberal/progressive. My wife’s brother and his wife lost their daughter just over a month ago. She was what you and those less compassionate would call a ‘tard’. She was a young lady who was born with several strikes against her, and when I see this word tossed around it just infuriates me to no end. She was kind and cared for those around her, unlike you and your foul type.
People like you deserve a 10th level of hell all of your own, and I sure hope it is waiting for you.
rachel
ConservativelyLiberal, I am sorry for your the loss of your niece; I had not meant to disrespect her memory. I’d be quite happy to use willing to use another term that describes willfully stupid and vicious people such as the troll I’m flaming, if you will only recommend one for me.
ConservativelyLiberal
Do not even ask me what you should use instead of that. If that is the best you can do, get fucked.
That is all I can say, I am so pissed off right now.
jake
Rachels and Cassidys is too long. How about Rancids?
Or we could get some better damn spoofs in this place.
Despite the alleged political leanings I already find rachel to be highly, nay, suspiciously derivative of cassidy, who for too brief a period, was marginally better than PaulEll.
rachel
I see. Perhaps you should go have a bit of a drink and a lie down. Or maybe just the lie-down. Your reaction is in no way reasonable.
mclaren
The term “tard” doesn’t seem to have worked out for you, Rachel. Try one of the following:
Nigger
Kike
Wop
Spick
Jungle bunny
Greaser
Faggot
Traitor
When you run through those infantile and despicable epithets, give Ann Coulter a call — she’ll suggest plenty more.
Meanwhile, rational sensible people who oppose this war are still waiting to hear your argument to explain why we should encourage young people to continue to volunteer to prolong it.
ConservativelyLiberal
Not reasonable? I watched this special young lady grow and struggle from the day of her birth to the day she died, and I have to hear heartless people like you toss this denigrating word around as an insult to others. Her Mom quit work after she was born, and dedicated her life to caring for their daughter. If you could see her now, and if you had a whit of compassion at all, you would feel like the piece of crap that you surely are for saying what you did.
I will go now, not to take your advice, but because I need to cool off. I saw what you said and I saw red. Can you really blame me? Probably.
rachel
Mclaren, none of those work to express what I think of you because–except for traitor–they are all aimed at something external to the person’s mind and/or character. Plus, for “traitor” to work, I’d have to know that you’ve actually gone and joined the enemy (which would be al Qaeda, not our troops, BTW).
And where did you get the fatuous notion that I’m encouraging people to join up? Just because I don’t want people like you to vilify the ones who do, does not mean I’m all about handing out recruitment posters or any of the rest of that BS.
Cassidy
Yes, I realize that the concepts of Duty, Honor, Integrity, Loyalty, and Sacrifice are troubling concepts for you. I recognize your weakness for what it is and just want you to know that cowardice is okay. It fits you like a warm blanket. And don’t worry, there will always be American Soldiers who shoulder their own burden as well as yours.
Don’t waste your time. They aren’t partisan; they are “enlightened”. Kinda like Bush is enlightened by God to go forth and make policy. It really is amazing how much like him you guys are.
Dude, I’m one of the lowest paid gov’t employees out there. Trust me, I ain’t got mine. I just believe in working for what I have. I don’t believe that other people who are more successful than me, should have to give up their cash to someone who wasn’t willing to work as hard to be successful. It’s personal responsibility.
Cassidy
Something I find very interesting is that despite the lot of you objecting to being spoken of in general terms, only one of you has actually said anything to Mclaren and his anti-military ramblings/delusions.
Isn’t tacit approval just as heinous as the action/words themselves?
jake
Strange, I can’t find any definition of those words that includes this concept:
Huh.
Well, so long as you’re comfortable with yourself. But don’t worry, I think your Hard Man (TM) act is about as genuine as a pair of Hollywood Boulevard tits and it hasn’t changed my view of real soldiers one wit.
Cassidy
Heh…you wouldn’t know a real Soldier from stump of wood.
mclaren
You haven’t yet realized that virtually none of the people who are killing U.S. soldiers in Iraq are Al Qaeda, have you?
You’re badly confused and totally uninformed about the factions on the ground in Iraq who are fighting American forces, so here’s a quick refresher course:
In Iraq you’ve got five factions vying for control of the government. First is the Mahdi army of Muktada al-Sadr. These are radical Shia militia. They are not al Qaeda — just because someone who believes in Islam is a radical religious jihadist, that doesn’t make hi/r a member of Al Qaeda. The Shia militia are radical Shia jihadists.
Then you have the diehard Baathists, who are secular and Sunni. The Baathists are not religious fanatics and despise both the Sunni and the Shia jihadis.
Then you have the secular government of Iraq, made up primarily of corrupt toadies and expatriates. No one in Iraq takes the current secular government inside the Green Zone seriously, so they have no power, practically speaking.
Then you have a very small contingent of Al Qaeda. These are Sunni religious jihadists. Do not confuse them with the Shiite fundamentalist jihadists — the Shia and the Sunni in Iraq hate each other’s guts, and if a member of Al Qaeada openly walked into Muktada Al-Sadr’s stronghold, they’d cut off the Al Qaeda guy’s head and stick it on a pike as a lesson to the other Al Qaeda.
Then there are the Kurds, who are secular and have a different ethnic background from either the Sunnis or the Shia. The Kurds live in the extreme northern part of Iraq and they have effectively formed their own state there in all but name. The Kurds are not primarily concerned with getting involved with the Sunni-Shia conflict except to protect their oil fields in Kirkuk. The ethnic group feared and hated most by the Kurds are the Turks, because there’s a significant population of ethnic Kurds inside Turkey, and the Turks refuse to allow those ethnic Kurds to join with the Kurds in the north of Iraq to form their own state.
U.S> intelligence estimates place the number of insurgents in Iraq at 20,000 but only 6 percent of those are foreign fighters. This means at the absolute most, there are only 1,200 Al Qaeada fighters in Iraq.
You can see from these figures that Al Qaead are the people primarily responsible for killing American soldiers in Iraq.
In fact, the Baathist Sunnis and the Mahdi Army Shia are the ones who are responsible for killing the overwhelming majority of U.S. troops in Iraq.
You’ll deny this, of course, but the facts are by now well known and irrefutable:
http://www.progressivedailybeacon.com/more.php?page=opinion&id=1604
What we’ve actually got going on in Iraq is a religious civil war between Shia and Sunni muslims. As you recall, Shia muslims blieve that Ali (cousin of the Prophet Mohammed) was the true caliph, while Sunnis believe that Ali was a pretender and not legitimate:
http://www.islamfortoday.com/shia.htm
So, to put it as bluntly as possible, U.S. troops are today being killed by both sides on an Islamic religious civil war in Iraq between Shia and Sunnnis over the question of who should have been the One True Caliph in the year 632 A.D.
If you think this makes sense, raise your hand.
Someone else earlier stated that U.S. troops are volunteering to go to Iraq to fight “our enemies” and they deserve our support for that reason. As you can see from the above facts, U.S. troops who volunteer to go to Iraq to fight “our enemies” (i.e., the enemies of America, meaning Al Qaeda) are being lied to and manipulated and killed for no reason. The 6% foreign fighter estimate in Iraq is the high estimate — varying intel runs rom 2% to 6%. This means that there may be as few as 400 Al Qaeda fighters in Iraq.
This in turn means that virtually none of the people American troops in Iraq are getting into combat with are Al Qaeda. In fact, the Iraqis who are killing U.S. troops are mainly the Iraqi army troops that U.S. soliders are training.
You’re so uninformed about the situation in Iraq that you’ll also deny this fact, so here’s some documentation on that pont:
Sergeant Patrick R. McCaffrey, Sr. and First Lieutenant Andre D. Tyson died on this day two years ago in Balad, Iraq. Back then, military officials reported that enemy insurgents ambushed them. The Army subsequently conducted an investigation and learned the men were targeted and killed by Iraqi troops they were training.
http://www.counterpunch.org/cohn06222006.html
This is going on all the time in Iraq.
All the time.
It’s similar to Viet Nam, where the Vietnamese barber who cut the G.I.’s hair during the day on the base was the guy crawling throught he concertina wire at night to take them out with sniper fire. When you get in the middle of a civil war in a foreign country, you get into these kinds of crazy situations where some little kids hands a U.S. soldier a pineapple and then pulls a pin under his shirt and blow shimself and a platoon of U.S. soliders up. Civil wars get insane. Especially religious civil wars.
And that is what America has stumbled into the middle of Iraq.
It’s a giant mess and the longer we stay there, the more we will forced to take sides. We can’t avoid taking sides because every Iraqi insurgent U.S. soldiers kill belongs to one religious faction or the other, he’s either a Sunni or a Shia. So if U.S. soldiers kill more Shia this week, they’re perceived as being on the Shia side and the Sunnis target our troops. Then our troops doing a sweep to relatilate and kill more Sunnis, and now America is perceived as being on the Sunni side, so now the Shia target our troops with IEDs and sniper fire and ambushes set up by the Iraqi troops our own soldiers are training.
It never ends. Back and forth, on and on. There’s no way to stay “neutral” in a religious civil war like this. As long as U.S. troops are present in Iraq, one side or the other of this religious Islamic civil war will target U.S. soliders, and we will just keep getting sucked in deeper and deeper.
====
So now that I’ve given you a basic education in what’s going on in Iraq, you can see that your claim that “the enemy (which would be Al Qaeda” in Iraq is insane. Our primary enemy in Iraq, the people who are going the overwhemling majorty of the killing of U.S. troops isn’t Al Qaeda at all. It’s Muktada Al Sadr’s Mahdi Army and the Sunni jihadists. We’ve got two enemies, and they’re both trying to kill U.S. troops. Al Qaeda is only a bit player in Iraq and accoutns for virtually none of the U.S. casualites.
This explains why it’s such a bad idea to glorify young Americans who sign up to go to Iraq and “fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them over here.” These gullible hopelessly ignorant young men think they’ll be fighting Al Qaeda in Iraq — but they aren’t. They’re going to wind up ebing shot at and shooting at radical Shia and radica Sunni jihadists, neither of whome are Al Qaeda.
Let’s be clear here, Rachel — Muktada Al Sadr’s Mahdi Army didn’t fly any planes into the twin towers on September 11. Neither did the Sunni Baathists in Iraq. Neither of these groups has a damn thing to do with Al Qaeada, who are wahhabis, a fundamentalist radically extreme sect of Sunni Islam that came out of Saudi Arabia.
Let’s also be very clear here that 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were Saudi Arabian citizens, and none of them were Iraqis. None. Not one.
So when young Americans join the U.S. Army to “fight out enemies” in Iraq, they’re being lied to and they’re being duped and they’re being suckered. U.S. troops are not fighting Al Qaeada in Iraq, they’re caught up in a religious civil war between Shia and Sunni muslims about who the true Caliph should have been in 632 A.D.
Yo go on to claim that my statement of this fact constitutes “vilifying” the gullible ignorant kids who volunteer to go to Iraq and fight what they think is AL Qaeada, but is actually the Madhi Army and the Sunni jihadists.
That’s a lie, Rachel. You’re lying.
You need to improve your lying skills, Rachel, because when I state the documented fact that our troops are being kileld by Mahdi Army jihadis or Sunni jihadis, that’s easy to document. These facts have been exhaustively documented:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/TerenceJeffrey/2007/02/14/are_iraqi_moderates_killing_americans
Lastly, you asked:
When you glorify people like Pat Tillman and treat him as a hero instead of a gullible dupe, you are ecnouraging other gullible ignorant American kids to follow his lead.
When you applaud young people who believe the lies they are being fed to the effect that they will be fighting Al Qaeda in Iraq, you are helping support those lies. Americans of all ages have been sustematically lied to about who we are fighting in Iraq and what our troops are actually going in Iraq. As the facts show, there are virtually no Al Qaeda in Iraq — essentially all the people U.S. trops are killing and being killed by are either Shia or Sunni Iraq religious fundamentalists involved in an internecine religious civil war that has nothing to do with 9/11 and has nothing to do with “keeping America safe from terrorists” and nothing to do with “fighting them [Al Qaeda] over there so we don’t have to fight them over here.”
You’re so shockingly ignorant about what’s going on in Iraq, Rachel, and you’re so appalling incompetent at discussing the situation in Iraq, that it’s clear you’ve got a head full of the same mush that been spoon-fed by propoganda outlets like Fox News to the young people who eagerly join up with the U.S. Army.
Our troops are stuck in the middle of a religious civil war between two Islamic religious factions, Shia and Sunni, whose religious differences are not even comprehensible to Americans, and who don’t give a damn about attacking any targets in the United States. The two religious factions in Iraq want only one thing: to control Iraq. We have gotten ourselves wedged in between these two religious factions, and whatever we do at this point just makes things worse.
Stating those facts does not “vilify our troops.” I don’t “hate our troops” because I point out that the people who walk into recruiting offices across America have been lied to and being duped and manipulated, and new U.S. army recruits fresh out of boot camp are not fighting Al Qaeda in Iraq — for the most part, they are being killed by the very Iraq Army troops and militas they are training. Which makes no sense. It’s insane, it’s pointless, it’s counterproductive, it’s crazy, it’s maddening, it’s demented, and it’s crazy.
That’s not “vilifying” our troops. That’s saying, “Hey, wait! We’re being lied to! Virtaully all of the U.S. casulaties in Iraq are not being caused by Al Qaeada Something’s wrong here.”
One last thing:
Rachel, you and every other jaw-jutting gutless pissant armchair asshole warrior out there likes to use the logical fallacy of the false extremes to beat people who don’t suppor this misbegotten war over the head with.
The trick you use is the logical fallacy of the false extreme: either you cheer every young American who signs up to fight in Iraq or you don’t support our troops.
That’s a goddamn lie.
It’s as phoney as dishojnest as the fallacy “either you’re with us, or you’re against us..” I’m vehemently not with the insane and halfwitted fumbling and stumbling and bungling and bumbling of the drunk-driving C student int he White House… and that does not mean I’m against America.
You can be opposed to the people who started this war and who want this war to continue without being in favor of the Al Qaeda terrorists. As the facts clearly show (and as I have documented), the people U.S. troops are fighitn in Iraq are not Al Qaeda. They are Mahdi Army or Baathists.
You are trying to use the dishonest and contemptible lie that because I refuse to applaud and cheer the guullible young men who get duped into signing up for the U.S. Army in Iraq on the false pretext that they will be
mclaren
fighting Al Qaeda, that I somehow hate U.S. troops.
That’s such a huge lie, it blots out the sun.
Shame on you, Rachel. For shame.
People can be against young Americans getting lied and duped into signing up to go to Iraq to fighting an enemy (Al Qaeda) they won’t be fighting, without hating U.S. troops.
I hope and pray none of our troops gets hurt or killed in Iraq. Realistically speaking, though, some of them will.
Treating these young Americans’ deaths as heroic glorious sacrifices in the noble fight against the Al Qaeda terrorists who struck America on 9/11, instead of pointless deaths from the crossfire of an internal Iraqi civil war and tragically wasted American lives caused by a pack of lies from our so-called leaders and their propaganda toadies at Fox News, does no one any service, Rachel. No one.
What is particularly evil (and there is no other word for it — it is just plain goddamn evil) is the way in which anyone who refuses to applaud young Americans who are duped and lied into signing up for the U.S. Army to “fight Al Qaeda in Iraq” gets dishonestly branded as a traitor, as somone who “hates our troops.” What you’re doing is evil, Rachel. It’s evil because the lie you are telling helps kill more young Americans for no reason. Your lie is not just disgusting, it’s downright evil because as long as these personal attacks continue on people who point young Americans are being duped and lied to in order to get them to sign up to fight in Iraq, more and more young Americans will be lied and duped into dying in Iraq in a so-called “fight against Al Qaeda.” But the American soldiers who die in Iraq have never been fighitng Al Qaeda at all, their lives are being wasted pointlessly and tragically when they’re killed by Shia and Sunnis locked in a religious civil war inside Iraq.
We now return you to the regularly scheduled infantile name-calling and envenomed personal attacks by Rachel et al.
rachel
Oh, I see! When you wrote:
You weren’t really expressing contempt for for some of our troops. You were telling us all how much you love them and support them and wish to help keep them safe.
Uh-huh. And I’m an evil liar? :-D Go on, pull the other one; it’s got bells on it.
mclaren
Let’s try the flip side — you’re telling us we should admire people for being duped and manipulated into killing themselves for a lie.
Go get a gun and stick it against your head and pull the trigger, Rachel, and you’ll be helping fight Al Qaeda. That’s a lie — and if you’re gullible enough to believe it, according to your reasoning, we should admire you.
Yes, you’re an evil liar.
rachel
Oh, you’re back. When you said:
who the heck did you mean by “et al.”? The voices in your head? ‘Cause as far as I can tell, I’ve been the only one on this board even bothering to talk to you.
mclaren
Good job making young people feel warm ‘n fuzzy about getting duped into signing up to fight an enemy who isn’t there is Iraq. That’s the way to “support our troops.”
Hey, Rachel, whaddaya say?
How many kids you kill today?
rachel
OK, so it is the voices in your head you were talking about. If any of them are telling you you’re a fuckwit, too? Listen to them; they know what they’re talking about.
mclaren
More name-calling. You don’t have any answer at all to the question of why it’s a good idea to make young Americans feel wonderful about getting duped into signing up to get killed in Iraq, do you?
You’ve got no logic. No arguments. Nothing going for you at all…except name-calling.
Cassidy
Okay that was funny, considering the source.
mclaren
“One of the most horrible features of war is that all the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.” — George Orwell, Homage to Catalonia, 1938
We need to support our troops!
“Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything—you can’t conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him.” — Robert A. Heinlein, If This Goes On, 1940
We have to fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them over here.
“Only the mob and the elite can be attracted by the momentum of totalitarianism itself. The masses have to be won by propaganda.” — Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
Yes, I realize that the concepts of Duty, Honor, Integrity, Loyalty, and Sacrifice are troubling concepts for you. I recognize your weakness for what it is and just want you to know that cowardice is okay. It fits you like a warm blanket. And don’t worry, there will always be American Soldiers who shoulder their own burden as well as yours — Cassidy
“As societies grow decadent, the language grows decadent, too. Words are used to disguise, not to illuminate, action: You liberate a city by destroying it. Words are used to confuse, so that at election time people will solemnly vote against their own interests.” — Gore Vidal, Imperial America, 2004
The “Pat Tillmans” joined up after 9-11 because they wanted to protect and serve their country — Rachel
“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.” — Charles Mackay, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, 1841
Cassidy
Blah, blah blah, blah blah- Mclaren
John S.
And you want people to take you seriously?
Tim is right…irony is lost on you.
Cassidy
I thought it was funny.
Steve Blett
You liberals are all alike. You are a bunch of pussies. You’ll change your tune when somw towell head knocks on your door and says “Kiss the Koran.” The only thing better than “Charmin” is the Koran. Hear the gurgling flushing sound as the Koran is headed to the treatment plant?