Conservative activists plead with the president to refocus on getting troops out of Iraq. Sounds like someone has been thinking about Nov. 2008.
I have the same question for these guys as always: is that a veto-proof majority in your pocket? No? Then sit down and shut your yap. The president won’t do the right thing until Congress stands up and forces him to do it. As long as righties cajole, wheedle, plead, threaten but don’t act they’re just sealing their own fate when the election comes in a year and change.
Zifnab
There’s a word in the conservative dictionary for people who vote to overturn a Republican Presidential Veto. ‘Primary Bait’. If your base was as batshit insane as this, would you really want to poke it with a stick? I can name ten acquaintances who to this day claim our President is the best gosh darn War Hero Leader Decidinator this side of Dwight D. Eisnenhower. They’re rich. They’re dumb. And they’re the guys who elect people to Texas government.
Republicans are stuck between Iraq and a hard place, and they still haven’t found a good enough reason to abandon Iraq. Honestly, I can’t give them one. They are so going to be drummed out of office either way. At least this way they go down with their ears still plugged and their eyes still blindfolded, so they don’t have to observe the giant clusterfuck mess they’ve made.
LLeo
The Dems are also a bunch of craven bastards. Let the President play chicken with the troops. Dems could filibuster the Iraq funding and bring it all to a screeching halt.
Hell the Dems could start going old school and have the Sargent at Arms arrest the Bush apparatchiks that refuse to answer subpoena and questions under oath.
Bottom Line: Dems are pussies.
Walker
Look at the contempt coverage. It is clearly going along party lines. The Republicans are spouting “Clinton did it too” left and right. There is some legitimate worry that failed contempts will just make Bush stronger.
Keep in mind that Democrats do not really have a majority in the Senate. They need Lieberman to give them that, and he increasingly puts Bush over the Constitution these days.
Walker
Though I should mention, they could probably get Ron Paul on their side with regard to contempt, so perhaps they don’t need Lieberman.
Face
I would like a show of hands on this blog as to who thinks Bush would actually follow a overturned-veto law that demanded withdrawl. I’ve been saying this for months–it does not matter whether 66 or 98 senators vote to overturn a Bush veto–I’m convinced at this point he will invent something…probably scream “Article 2!!”…that he will use to justify ignoring such a law. I’m come to believe he will never, ever allow Congress to dictate his policy, laws be dammed.
Am I really crazy, or does this sound about right?
Follow up Q–would R’s finally agree to impeach if he were to act that brazenly illegal? I’m guessing over half the Rs would STILL vote not to….
rachel
Well, I guess the chickens’s are coming home to roost now. Too bad they’re not only shitting on these Bozo’s heads.
John S.
If you had said pigeons instead of chickens, then you’d be right.
Pigeons shit on everything without exception.
Equal Opportunity Cynic
But Tim — maybe you didn’t hear. The Republican Senators CAN’T oppose the President! Harry Reid is really mean, and if they took a stand for the troops they’d give Harry a victory.
I’m sure the voters will understand that siding with the out-of-control 25% President was just a necessary by-product of spiting Harry Reid.
Tim F.
But of course. I’m sure that the wives and kids of today’s war dead will understand.
Rome Again
Grover Norquist didn’t really want to see the government drowned in a bathtub after all? Okay, now I’m thoroughly confused on his mindset.
Equal Opportunity Cynic
Though I should mention, they could probably get Ron Paul on their side with regard to contempt, so perhaps they don’t need Lieberman.
Ron Paul serves in the House of Representatives, whereas Lieberman serves in the Senate, so they wouldn’t offset.
Fruitbat Jones
What? People have died in this war? I’m not so sure, Tim. I haven’t seen any coverage on the news about this. Haven’t seen any funerals, or caskets, or candlelight vigils…
Obviously, if Americans were really dying, the news would cover it extensively. Therefore I’m going to assume Tim’s lying.
dlw32
I have to agree with Face. Best case is Bush will drag his feet. More likely is he’d simply say, “No, I don’t want to” like the petulant 3-year-old he is.
There is literally nothing this administration could do that would shock me. I’m praying daily that they allow Presidential elections in 08. Not fair, or clean elections mind you, just any election at all.
No, Bush will not pull out of Iraq. He will not co-operate with investigations into wrong-doing by his Administration. He will not allow any sort of check on his imperial power.
I’ll take Face’s comment one step further. If the GOP allowed Bush to be impeached, how many here think he’d actually step down?
Rome Again
What news? You mean those programs that show debate whether Lindsay Lohan and Paris Hilton should get jail time more often than they show actual news?
If it weren’t for Olbermann and the blogs, I’d get no news at all.
Rome Again
There use to be this tiny building directly across the street from the Dover AFB entrance on route 13/113. I always thought how interesting it would be to rent/purchase that building and plant cameras at the front window trying to capture any activity of the dead coming out of the base. I haven’t been back there in years though, I’m guessing that building is probably now gone.
Rome Again
The question I’m wondering about is, if the GOP allowed Bush to be impeached, how many here think they might actually have a chance at electing one of their own next time?
HunterBlackLuna
RA- a slightly better shot, since it would be an admirable first step towards getting that head-out-of-ass procedure they’ve been needing for… give it twelve years now.
I am worried as well- what if he refuses to comply with a somehow-overturned veto law? That’s open rebellion against the US Constitution. Nixon could have crowned himself dictator- he had control of the Army, and a lot of them would have stayed loyal to him and not to America. Bush’s administration obviously put’s old Milhouse’s to shame, party-over-country-wise.
And now I am truithfully convinced that there is NOTHING this President will stop at to get his way.
Rome Again
Interesting, TZ and I were actually discussing which administration was worse just yesterday, and he disagreed. He was under the impression BushCo hasn’t reached the level of Nixonian hubris yet.
Jake
And that’s one thing that doesn’t make any sense. If I were a scheming politico my reasoning would be that since there is 0 chance for a GOP pres this cycle, it would be better to take the hit now and by the time a Democrat had been in the WH 4 – 8 years they’d have plenty to scream about.
Really, I don’t get the GOP’s continued support of a guy who daily does to their careers what Leatherface does to a car load of teens. Is it that whole BD/SM thing at play?
HunterBlackLuna
Well, in truth, I’ve only been around mostly for all of Bush’s terms, so maybe time has distorted the hubris of the older boy. It just seems like Dubya’s trying to become like the generals of the Roman Republic who raised entire legions to be loyal to them, and not to Rome, to use an analogy with your tag.
Rome Again
That’s no analogy, that’s the reason for my moniker (well, one of two, actually).
Rome Again
The other reason being that my ex was always playing a game called Rome while I was visiting blogs.
The Other Steve
Norquist’s position that by saying we’re leaving would force the Democrats to more extreme positions simply because they’re nothing but anti-Bush is interesting…
considering the only reason we are staying is because the Democrats say we should leave and Bush has an anti-Democrat ideology.
Rome Again
Yeah, I noticed that too!
Cassidy
I think the families of the deceased deserve a little more respect than that. They are allready grieving. They don’t need their loved ones turned into a public spectacle. There are plenty of other ways to raise awareness about the casualties of this war.
Rome Again
Like I give a shit what you think. You think nationalism trumps everything else. End of story. Your thoughts are meaningless.
Cassidy
Doesn’t change that you’re wrong.
Cassidy
Your compassion is leaking again. Might want to get that checked out. But then again, your compassion is a bought commodity, so I’ll flip you a dollar to feel some compassion towards the families of dead Soldiers. They did just lose a loved one.
Grumpy Code Monkey
Frankly, if I saw any activity among the dead, I’d be reaching for my shotgun and calling Bruce Campbell…
Is a picture of a flag-draped coffin a “spectacle”?
Like what, exactly?
Andrew
Jesus, you’re boring broken record.
Cassidy
This doesn’t seem like turning a solemn occasion into a spectacle to you? There are dead Soldiers in those “flag draped coffins”. They deserve more respect than hanging out like the papparazzi, hoping to catch a titillating glimpse.
Well, there are the usual Veterans groups. They are fairly active in that kind of thing, as well as the newer ones that have sprung up. Those tend to be anti-war, so they’ll appreciate your help. You could start a grassroots group in your hometown…I’m sure you ahve some returning veterans there. Plenty of charities that involve the dependants.
Cassidy
Pot..kettle…etc.
The Other Steve
Cassidy – Thank you for your comments.
However, in the future if I want the level of insight you provide I shall query the magic 8-ball.
Cassidy
I knew you and Bush were pretty similiar…but wow, the parallels get more and more detailed.
Equal Opportunity Cynic
Well, in fairness the paparazzi aspect of it is only necessary because the administration has gone so far to bury legitimate news. Reflecting the consequences of the war shouldn’t make one into a paparazzo, but because this return of the caskets is shrouded in such secrecy it sadly may be necessary.
I’m certainly under the impression that the return of caskets has been seen as legitimate news in previous wars, has it not?
Cassidy
It’s not “shrouded in secrecy”…it’s keeping a solemn and private moment from becoming a media spectacle. Would you want a camera crew showing up to film the funeral of your wife/mother/significant other?
You know what the casualty count is, so it’s not like you have to count coffins to get a number. It’s a completely unnecessary action, and completely disrespectful to the Soldier in the coffin and their grieving loved ones.
Face
I think, yes, he’d step down. Whether or not he’d pardon himself first…well…I can see that. But he cannot ignore an impeachment ruling.
Cassidy’s still steamed they brought cameras to the Auschwitz (sp?). Turned that solemn occasion into a spectacle, didn’t they? Too bad all those pics of the dead were released. I hope those Jewish families sued for invasion of privacy, right, Cassidy?
Cassidy
I’m not a socialist or a liberal…I’m not even close to being a Nazi.
Face
I never called you a Nazi. Never even implied it. Would you like me to help you with reading comprehension?
You’re trying to say that pics of war dead are a “spectacle”. That it’s somehow wrong to show them; wrong to remind the public what they’re fighting for, and the cost of it. So, by that logic, I suppose the Allies should never had taken pics at a concentration camp, right? They made it into a spectacle, correct? And this…is somehow…a bad thing?
Please explain how the country being acutely aware the cost of a war is supposed to be frowned upon.
Cassidy
One to talk about reading comprehension…
That’s not what I said. I clearly pointed to the offending suggestion of camping outside the gates in the hope to get some pictures is disrespectful. And you’re argument is bogus. You don’t need coffins to show the cost of war. You can go on several military related websites and see the names and faces. So that’s a load of BS.
Face
Why did the Allies take pictures of Auschwitz (sp?)??
John S.
You still don’t seem to grasp the simple mechanics of the political spectrum (not that I’m surprised).
Have a look here.
Conservatism leads to fascism. Please try to grasp that concept. That said, if you are trending hard away from socialism and liberalism , then you are moving towards the side of the spectrum that when taken to the extreme does in fact lead to Nazism.
Zifnab
Don’t try too hard to explain this. Polemics is an old and venerable field. Cassidy likes his “known facts” and other random bullshit.
bpower
Bush/Republican’s know they’ve fucked up, they’re just gonna wait it out, let the next Dem. President try and sort out the mess for 4 or 8 years. That’ll be enough time for 40% of the population to forget, or at least pretend to forget, all the damage they’ve done. All they want is plausible deniablity i.e. if you can’t prove beyond any doubt that the Rep\Neocon gang are dangerous lunatics in a 30 second sound bite then they win.
It’ll be same ol’, same ol’ in ten years time. Reps will be able to claim that victory was only a month away when President Clinton/Obama started to withdraw the troops.
There’s some interesting stuff on the intertubes about the shamelessness of these guys. It’s gonna be awfully hard for the Dems to counter it and current events dont give much hope.
America is in trouble.
bpower
John S,
I agree with Zifnab, there’s no point trying to explain this to him/her.
Never underestimate a Right-wing Authoritarian’s immunity to cognitive dissonance. You can quote numbers of socialists and liberals murdered by Nazis, you can quote Hitler and buddies sounding EXACTLY like modern conservatives condemning the break down of morality in society etc etc.
The RWA will “win” the argument by pointing out that the Nazis had the “Socialist” in their official title.
Oh and Cassidy, I’ve seen some passive-aggressive posters before but damn you’re good.
rachel
Naw, pigeons (well, doves) are a symbol of peace. How about buzzards?
John S.
Sure. They’re the perfect opportunists. Sounds like a good match for Washington.
Re: Cassidy
I know it’s futile, but I figured I’d give it the old college try.
Rome Again
Iraqis didn’t volunteer to live in a war zone asshole.
Dreggas
Quite frankly if this were truly a war in which the whole country was involved we would see their coffins coming home for the simple reason that the sacrifice would be shared to some degree. Sure we know how many died but beyond a number the majority of Americans have no emotional connection whatsoever to the war. It would be like remembering those who died in WWII, sure you can go see the graves where they lay but beyond that there is no attachment and no appreciation for the cost of war as there is in the cold hard reality of a flag draped coffin being unloaded from a plane.
Quite frankly this admin wanted it this way, they wanted us to just keep shopping and pay no attention to the war or those involved or those who died in it. Sorry, Cassidy but the bush line on this (which is what you have put out regarding it being “private” and seeing the results of our policies being somehow “dishonorable”) is complete bullshit.
To not face what we have wrought and not soberly, solemnly stare reality in the eye is the most dishonest, and indeed, dishonorable thing we can do.
Cassidy
Considering this isn’t “your war” as so many have stated, this makes no sense.
I’m just speaking as Soldier. If I was watching my buddy get downloaded off a plane in a flag draped coffin, and some voyueristic asshole was trying to snap pics of it, I’d beat the piss out of them. This is the scenario that was described. Hanging around like the paparazzi is disrespectful to the dead and thier families.
Dreggas
And you just pointed out the exact problem of this entire situation, this country is not at war nor has it been at war this entire time thus putting another hole in the “we’re at war” bullshit meme that bush keeps trying to spin.
Well sadly, given the bullshit of this admin and its policies regarding not showing the cost of this war it would almost have to be done by paparazzi if it were to be done at all. Now if the admin levelled with the American people and didn’t have a bullshit policy that would be another story and the “paparazzi” aspect wouldn’t exist now would it?