A disturbing story from the AP (queue the Malkin Brigades- THE MEDIA HATES AMERICA):
Army medical examiners were suspicious about the close proximity of the three bullet holes in Pat Tillman’s forehead and tried without success to get authorities to investigate whether the former NFL player’s death amounted to a crime, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press.
“The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described,” a doctor who examined Tillman’s body after he was killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators.
The doctors – whose names were blacked out – said that the bullet holes were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away.
***Among other information contained in the documents:
_ In his last words moments before he was killed, Tillman snapped at a panicky comrade under fire to shut up and stop “sniveling.”
_ Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments.
_ The three-star general who kept the truth about Tillman’s death from his family and the public told investigators some 70 times that he had a bad memory and couldn’t recall details of his actions.
_ No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene – no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.
This is one of those stories that you read and say to yourself- please don’t let this be true. And Bush should release the damned documents so we can prove it isn’t true, or deal with it if it is and move on as a nation.
The Other Steve
WTF!?
dslak
As John from OPFOR said in another thread:
and this is good reason to suspect that this story isn’t true. If you don’t want it to be true, then it isn’t.
I do admit, I’ll have a modicum of respect for the ‘wingnuts’ if they call for the head of those in the chain of command who dishonored Tillman’s sacrifice. I won’t hold my breath.
Wilfred
How does this:
square with this?:
John Cole
In my case, I sure as hell hope the story isn’t true.
dslak
Of course you do. It would be a pretty shitty way to treat somebody, if it were.
Tim F.
I would be grateful is somebody could explain how Executive Privilege applies to the Tillman papers. Thanks in advance.
Tulkinghorn
The cover-up encourages the worst sort of conspiracy theories. If a general has already been punished for letting this happen, then why not release the notes? If what they are hiding is Rumsfeld or Bush’s politicising of Tillman’s death, that would not surprise many people in any case.
Take the hit and move on, or more and more reasonable people will suspect that Tillman was killed on the orders of people in the White House, because what else could they be hiding that we do not already know?
The White House seems determined to make our lefty nutcases like Bartcop into prophets.
MikeF
I was wondering the exact same thing earlier Wilfred. Those two “facts” don’t add up.
Tulkinghorn
It don’t. Tactical screw-ups by Rangers are not national security issues, as far as I can tell.
BobJones
If they thought enemy infantry was in the area, and were in an exposed position, maybe Tillman told one his fellow soldiers to “stop snivelling” and the guy responded by putting three in his head?
Tulkinghorn
According to Stan Goff (whoever he is – evaluate the credibility of that site for yourself) Tillman ended up on top of that soldier after being shot from thirty feet away. Goff’s conclusion seems reasonable: that a young soldier already firing away made a quick, reflexive, limbic-system based burst of three bullets when a target suddenly presented itself. In short, the sort of thing that happens when a tactical situation is completel screwed up by incompetent officers. I know nothing about combat, but it seems a very credible analysis.
PK
Supposing it was a deliberate act of murder. What interest does the army have in covering it up? This makes no sense.
BobJones
That makes alot of sense to me. A reflexive shooting, followed by panic from his fellow soldiers, and a calculated decision to exploit the death at higher levels.
PeterJ
The first claim was that Tillman’s group had been attacked by enemy forces then it was revealed that two friendly units had exchanged fire.
So either Tillman was killed by friendly fire from the other unit or if this latest news are true, by someone in his own unit.
There was no enemy fire.
So I can’t see why the statements would contradict each other.
PeterJ
make that
BobJones
I supposed they’d have the same interest they had in covering up and exploiting his friendly fire death. Namely distract the public from Abu Ghirab and obtain a short term PR benefit. At this point, that appears to be the BEST CASE SCENARIO. How fucked up is that?
John Cole
Novel Concept: Release everything and stop claiming executive privilege so we can stop all this painful speculation!
I know, crazy idea, but that is why I am here.
UnkyT
Hahahahahaha, there is no way that will happen. He’s already claimed this information as his. He is like my 4 year old son and his teddybear. He hasn’t touched it in years but there is no way in hell he is letting his little sister play with it.
RSA
It’s an automatic reflex by now: “I can’t talk about an ongoing investigation,” followed by “Now that the investigation is over, it’s time to put this issue behind us,” without ever telling us what happened. See the Libby leaks; Katrina; the U.S. attorney firings; etc.
Dreggas
If this is true I think my outrage meter will go to 12, or I’ll have to get one that does. The only possible purpose the administration could have for trying to use executive privelege to cover this up is that they were actively involved in the cover up of the incident. Further if it was fratricide by a fellow soldier then it would be even worse than “simple” friendly fire. The whitehouse new about this, there should be no doubt. The whole “spin” applied probably came right out of Karl’s shop to try and kindle the memories of heroes from WWII etc.
What seems for me to be even more fishy is 3 rounds to the forehead with, what I am assuming, was a tight shot pattern. the M16-A2 has 3 modes, safe, semi and 3 round burst. The 3 round burst might do it, but the shot pattern would not be as tight, semi would do it but if that were the case the rounds would have to be squeezed off fast enough to avoid much of a spread (granted the M16 has little to no kick). To get three to the brain case means the shooter was close and facing Tillman.
To cover this up, to try to hide it while putting out the grand heroic story would make anyone involved accomplices to murder, if in fact it was fratricide. If the admin does know what went down and is trying to hide it behind executive privelege while saying it was just “friendly fire” then they are accomplices.
Jake
Because The deciderator said so.
With slightly less snark I guess the whole thing centers around what Bush knew when he speechified about Tillman’s death.
As Tulkinghorn says, it does create the impression they’re covering something really sinister is afoot, but as UnkyT this is likely another case of the Child-in-Charge reflexively screaming MINE! Or a stubborn SOB who hates to admit he isn’t right 100% of the time.
Jake
Because The deciderator said so.
With slightly less snark I guess the whole thing centers around what Bush knew when he speechified about Tillman’s death.
As Tulkinghorn says, it does create the impression they’re covering something really sinister, but as UnkyT this is likely another case of the Child-in-Charge reflexively screaming MINE! Or a stubborn SOB who hates to admit he isn’t right 100% of the time. Or another case of “Oops, we were caught in a little fib, better call more attention to it by clamming up!
AkaDad
July 27, 2007: The day that John Cole officially became unhinged…
Cassidy
The M-16A4 and the M-4, as well as the upgraded Marksman M-16’s are more accurate than the A2. From the distance they are suggesting, a 3 round burst would still be traveling pretty tight. The 5.56 round is at approx. the same spot for 25M and 300M (which is why zero targets are at 25M). Logically, fired closer than that, they’d be tighter. Also, more than likely the weapon would have been on Semi, and reflexive fire techniques were employed. Infantryman train very extensively on reflexive fire, which is the rapid acquisition and shooting of a target in close quarters. Your average Infantryman can squeeze off a number of rounds in a very short amount of time.
John S.
Cassidy-
Take a hint from John C. (a military man himself) and avoid positing on things that you have no clue about. A military background is not tantamount to an autopsy report, photographs or any other type of concrete evidence that can be used to determine what happened here. And while you obviously enjoy vlesxing your military knowledge, in this case it really amounts to nothing.
This story merely raises more questions – it does not provide any answers.
John S.
Sorry…the word ‘vlesxing’ should be ‘flexing’.
I need a new keyboard.
Dreggas
I remember the reflexive fire training quite well (92-Y10 out of Fort Jackson). However that was about 10 years ago so I don’t know to what extent the M16 has been upgraded. Minus a diagram showing the grouping I am guessing that it had to be pretty damn close if they are even raising the specter of murder.
Rick Taylor
As a liberal, I’ve grown pretty cynical over the last six years, but it would take a lot to make me believe this one. I can’t imagine soldiers murdering one of their own and then covering it up. The cover-up that actaully did happen, denying it was friendly fire, was bad enough as it was. I hope others on the left are cautious about jumping to conclusions.
–Rick Taylor
ThymeZone
Why would there be reflexive fire if the unit was under no fire from enemy combatants?
At what point do the people who like to fake, or display (as you prefer) military prowess start asking for the one thing that matters here, which is, the truth. The truth that is being covered up to this day by the military and the White House. Why don’t we have all the facts, and who can possibly be benefiting from withholding the facts?
Without the relevant facts, what is the point of the “look at me” speculation crap being spewed here, and elsewhere, by trolls, spoofs, and various other dysfunctional characters, trying to generate churn on this subject?
Like he said. That’s the issue here. Not whether you can spout “military” sounding bullshit that anyone can cut and paste from websites.
Jake
Eh?
I read this as you can imagine soldiers murdering (killing?) one of their own, but you can’t imagine that they wouldn’t immediately confess.
Cassidy
As a former Infantryman and Combat Medic, I am very familiar with the ballistic principles of the 5.56 round. If you had bothered to ask, You would have found out that I was not weighing in on the murder vs. fratricide part, being that I don’t have all the available ammunition, but instead educating you (the whole group) on the ballistics, principles, and the primary friing techniques of Light Infantryman (Rangers being Light Infantry), in a combat scenario.
I have no opinion, yet. I was just pointing out that the rounds could still be relatively tight, regardless of firing technique. I think a snap shot, 3 round burst is the more likely culprit, as reflexive fire training preaches center mass. In a high stress situation, such as combat, you fall back on your reflexes…hence Reflexive Fire.
That’s already been proven. I agree that thier were no enemy combatants engaged. But, being under fire, is being under fire. As the story goes right now, until more facts are available, two friendly units engaged each other. So it’s not a large stretch of the imagination to see two units engaging “the enemy”. Obviously a bad tactical decision was made and it’s a shame it was covered up.
I challenge you to find the website and prove your assertion.
Murder is defiantely a possibility. Not knowing the autopsy details, all I can add is that Team Leaders, as Tillman was, are traditionally not liked by the lower enlisted. The first guy to be chewing your ass in the morning is your Team Leader. Add to that the Ranger culture, who are some very aggressive puppies, it’s not inconcievable that a junior enlisted man took some revenge. OTOH, the average Ranger Private, tends to be more responsible and mature than his Regular Army counterparts and a lot more disciplined, so it’s hard to say.
I don’t disagree with that. If you had bothered to ask, before attacking as you normally do, you’d find that I think this whole scenario is despicable and I’m glad people’s career’s are over for it. I am very upset at the constant attempts to fabricate a hero for this war, solely for PR purposes. There have been plenty of Soldiers who have done heroic things that don’t need to be embellished and made up. Unfortunately the Pat Tillman’s and Jessica Lynch’s have become public examples of how not to handle battlefield tragedies.
Cassidy
Fixed
whatsleft
Sighhh, Tim F., Tim F., Tim F.! In his position as Commander-in-Chief, the Executive must keep all adverse information about the troops from the enemy, else they will be emboldened. Q.E.D. silly boy :)
Tsulagi
Yep.
Don’t even want to say what I think the three bullets from 10 yards or maybe less could possibly be.
As for Bush, just when you think you have that worthless little sonofabitch pegged, as he said himself, he exceeds his low expectations.
Bubblegum Tate
Yes. The whole saga, from beginning to end. Ordinarily, I’d make some crack about the Malkintents, morons, and miscreants lying, spinning, deflecting, and standing against the troops under the guise of “Support Teh Troopz!” but this whole thing makes me too sad to do so. We ought to be living in a country and under an administration in which you could instantly discard a story like this as pure fiction. We ought to, but we don’t.
ThymeZone
When you respond to the numerous challenges that have been placed before you in the last week here, then you can challenge. Until then, shove it.
Not only is your spoof troll a complete waste of time, you are posting to a serious subject with material that has about as much value as a soldier of fortune comic book.
The issue here is about the truth of what happened. Do you know anything about the truth of what happened to Tillman beyond what we all can glean from the sketchy news reports? If not, why don’t you shut the fuck up?
No, you prefer to pulllike this out of your ass:
ThymeZone
When you respond to the numerous challenges that have been placed before you in the last week here, then you can challenge. Until then, shove it.
Not only is your spoof troll a complete waste of time, you are posting to a serious subject with material that has about as much value as a soldier of fortune comic book.
The issue here is about the truth of what happened. Do you know anything about the truth of what happened to Tillman beyond what we all can glean from the sketchy news reports? If not, why don’t you shut the fuck up?
No, you prefer to pull shit like this out of your ass:
(since it’s only 2007 and editable posts are beyond our technical ken, this may have been posted twice for editing reasons).
John S.
No need to. You are always more than willing to shower the ignorant masses with your smugness.
:)
Cassidy
You can choose ignorance if you want. I wasn’t trying to answer any questions, but instead to educate you (collectively) on some of the aspects of military training that may give you a little more insight into your judgements. One of the principles of being an Infantryman is the controlled application of fire. If remember correctly, Johnwasa “tanker”. It’s two different skill sets.
ThymeZone
He was a tanker, but you’re just a fucking wanker.
Cassidy
Wow…here I am, actually agreeing with you on a topic, and you’re still arguing with me. Extremely pathetic. Unless of course you want to re-read it and realize that I’m saying that murder is a possibility. Things like that have been known to happen in a warzaone. Coupled with the “headshots”, which is not typically a targeted area (it’s too small), the possibility of murder does have some weight.
Really? So the ballistic patterns and training techniques of Light Infantry have no value? That’s an ignorant assessment. I think any investigator would disagree with you. The type of weapon used, it’s ballistic patterns, and the normal firing techniques of Soldiers is very pertinent information. Instead you juts prefer to attack. Pathetic again. Try a little reading comprehension before you spout off about things you know nothing about.
Oh? Would you like to bless us of your insider knowledge that qualifies you to not take your own advise? I would hazard a guess that the only information you have to offer is what can be gleaned from sketchy news reports, so kindly shut the fuck up.
And once again, with your speed to attack before actually reading anything, you’ll find that I’m just as interested in the truth as well.
And you call me the troll…lol. Hysterical emotionalism coupled with ignorance…you are a special kind of idiot.
Cassidy
Hey don’t get mad at me. You all speak with ignorance…I point it out. If you don’t like the truth, do something about it.
ThymeZone
I’m not making any assertions about what may have happened, you stupid lying prick.
You are.
Tim F.
What? If you’re calling John me, well that’s a first.
ThymeZone
I’m not the lying asshole making assertions about what may have happened.
You are.
Cassidy
Neither am I. I’m making an educated guess, based on what information is available. I was showing a couple of possible scenarios. I’m inclined to believe his death was an accident, personally, but, more malicious things have been known to happen in a combat zone. So if that possibility is going to be pursued as a sdiscussion, which is what this thread is, then some working nowledge of miliary training and firing techniques is required.
And you have made assertions about what happenned you stupid, lying prick. But hey, don’t let knowledge get in the way of your hyper-emotionalism. I’m sure it feels good to call people names, but do you really go through life as this much of an idiot? I’m starting to think you’re parents should have sold you to the circus.
The Other Steve
dslak… I’m a bit late, but… John From OPFOR claiming soldiers died because of news reporting about Abu Ghraib is a bit moronic.
See, Abu Ghraib was interesting. I remembered when it happened. A month or two before news hit the US press, there had been a mortar attack on the prison, and they were specifically targetting the wing holding women and children.
At the time there was a loud “WTF!?”, and people wondering what was going on with that one. Then news of Abu Ghraib hit the US press and the pieces came together.
It was similar to those soldiers from the unit that committed the atrocities at Haditha went missing.
John from OPFOR lives in a unique fantasy world, where people on the ground in Iraq are unaware of what is happening in their own back yards, until the US news reports on it.
Honestly, he’s not worried about Iraqis finding out, he’s worried about US citizens finding out and asking questions.
The Other Steve
That works when you have nothing to hide. I’m afraid the reason Bush is trying to hide stuff is because there is something worth hiding. It would fit his pattern of behavior.
Cassidy
Abu Ghraib has been attacked quite a bit. While I was there, they actually coordinated a pretty sohpisticated attack. They “lightly” attacked the prison to draw out the QRF. Once they began rolling, the enemy started mortaring the intersections (they had them pre-plotted) and had surface laid mines to slow down the QRF.
The Other Steve
When were you at Abu Ghraib?
Cassidy
I wasn’t. I was at FOB Prosperity and then FOB Falcon.
The Other Steve
I was curious about the timing. You seem to be implying that it is impossible for Iraqis to know what is going on in their country without it being released to US news sources.
ThymeZone
Where? Show the posts.
Cassidy
I have no idea where you got that from.
The truth that is being covered up to this day by the military and the White House. Why don’t we have all the facts, and who can possibly be benefiting from withholding the facts?
Looks to me like an assertion.
Cassidy
So come on there runt…what’s this magical information you have? Oh I know…you think you know something about Soldiers. We’re all imperialists and baby-killers, etc. So you obviously know what happenned, just based on your (or more likely your parent’s) opinions.
What a pile of shit.
John S.
You’re a fucking moron.
Anyone speaking about this incident speaks with ignorance…which includes you most of all.
The truth is that, like I said, this story raises a lot of questions. None of which can be answered while King George rests aloft his throne of executive privelege. None of which can be answered with the knowledge you’ve gained in the service. So unless you’re a government investigator with a dossier in your hand complete with medical examiner reports, statements and photographs please just shut the fuck up.
That is all.
Dreggas
Wow, sorry but jumping to the idea that someone believes you are a baby killer when they never said it does sound like some serious projection. Seriously, no one said that the troops were baby killers and the only imperialists talked about have been this administration, the military just being a tool in that case.
ThymeZone
Yes, and good as gold. But the context was assertions about what happened to Tillman. Those are what we are talking about, your bullshit assertions about what happened to Tillman.
You don’t know what happened to Tillman. The whole point of the thread is that we don’t know what happened to Tillman. Unless you have some light to shed on that, then shut.the.fuck.up. Get it?
Or, if you have something useful to say about why, after all this time, we, the people, don’t know what happened to Tillman, then argue that.
Otherwise, you are just having a farting contest without a book of matches and no audience.
whatsleft
sorry Tim F. – should have blockquoted you
Cassidy
Ah I get it…it’s that elitist psuedo-intellectual mindset. You can discuss the possibility of murder, because it confirms what you believe, but I can’t shed light on technical aspects? You’re a hypocrite and an idiot.
The Other Steve
The use of the ‘elitist psuedo-intellectual mindset’ is a nice touch. You’re a good spoof, Cassidy.
ThymeZone
Are you kidding me? The guy is not a “good spoof,” he’s not even a good troll.
He blew his cover the first day. Since then this kind of phony “exchange” has been the best he can do all day.
TenguPhule
If you are not guilty, you should have nothing to hide.
Or does this standard only apply to those poor dumb civilians who shouldn’t talk back to their military masters?
Surely our armed forces were not so desperate for warm bodies that they let someone so woefully ignorant of the Constitution and general Human Righrs into it.
TenguPhule
Cassidy wins the Irony of the Day(tm).
timeisart
Why was this report released? Because an Army doctor (not a medic) decided to ask questions because the three shot pattern was unusual, in his judgement. To quote:
“The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described,” a doctor who examined Tillman’s body after he was killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators.
So, you have an Army physician raising the possiblity of foul play, if not murder. Concerning panic and reflexive shooting, aren’t these the highly trained Rangers, not just a bunch of draftees?