A terrible accident, it appears, and I hope very few people end up losing their lives. I am not generally one to go on and on gushing about the children, but the fact that none of the children on the bus were killed is, in and of itself, miraculous.
At any rate, I remember reading a report in the middle 90’s (back when our government agencies were somewhat functional) about the sad state of American infrastructure. Does anyone remember the report I am talking about?
Jake
This one?
[/research geeking]
ccham44
Jake’s link is probably what you’re looking for.
ASCE publishes a “report card” on America’s Infrastructure every couple of years.
The last one that came out (2005?) gave it a “D” overall if I remember correctly.
Dreggas
John,
Back where I lived in NY one of the local bridges that was literally one of the only ways across the lake I lived near without driving around the entire lake was officially condemned but people were still driving on it. Neither the state, county or feds were even working to fix it.
BFR
Sad combination of anti-tax fervor, anti-road zealotry and rampant NIMBYism. The greater Seattle area makes for a nice case study. There are three major bridges which are borderline structurally unsound due to damange from a prior earthquake – state & local gov have spent about a decade bickering over how to fix them. Construction isn’t going to start anytime soon.
TeaJay
Living in the suburbs, that’s the bridge I take to get out of town. It made me stop and think for a bit when I found that the bridge was considered “structurally deficient” back in 2005. I guess I missed that on the news; maybe it’s not newsworthy when a main commuter bridge isn’t up to par. Of course, I was also surprised that a bridge so designated is not necessarily dangerous. Of course, the link also has a few sniping reactions about Minnesota political battles over the roads. It’s been going on for years now, and our governor, Tim Pawlenty, took a “No New Taxes” pledge, thus killing a gas tax increase that was supposed to pay for this kind of thing. You know, Minnesotans are supposed to be too practical for this kind of stuff to happen here. Guess not anymore.
Bob In Pacifica
Perhaps if we divert some of the funds for the levees…
Or maybe a tax cut.
tBone
I knew it. It’s Clinton’s fault.
Sadly, I fully expect to see this proposed seriously from the Quarter Percent Brigade.
capelza
Yet remarkably our McCullough bridges on the Oregon coast are are being rebuilt or refurbished all the time. The one at Newport, finished in 1936, is always being worked on, or rather every decade or so some super duper thing is done to it.
Right now, the whole thing is like a giant battery (please don’t ask me to explain that because I can’t) to act against the anti-corrosive effects of the ocean directly to the west oif it. The original Waldport bridge didn’t survive, because the cement used to make it had too much salt in it and so destroyed the internal metal supports. But the one that replaced it is somewhat true to the original in “feel”.
CoosBay’s big one is less threatened because it is just a bit further inland. It doesn’t seem to require the maintenance some of the others do.
Now the roads inbetween the bridges are pretty damn bad, but the bridges are kept up quite well. Though this may be because without them 101 in Oregon would really be a pain. Though that might ease the RV traffic in the summer, I can not imagine them wanting to follow the tracks that are the closest alternates if the bridges went.
This bridge falling is a terrible tragedy, I can’t get any news beyond it, but it must be awful for the residents and especially for the people who have lost loved ones.
Ralf
Here in the northern suburbs of Atlanta (Gwinnett County) they seem to be building new highway infrastructure like mad.
A 2-lane 50+ year-old bridge is currently being replaced with a 4-lane superhighway. There’s something very much like a mini “big dig” a few blocks away from me that will convert a dangerous 4-lane RR crossing to an 8-lane cloverleafy thing.
And these are just the two biggest projects nearby — there are at least four other improvement sites within a 5 mile radius.
So is this just a difference in local management? Federal highway pork? The cement-mixer-and-shovel lobby?
I note that the tax base around here is equivalent (if not inferior) to the neighborhood where the I35 bridge collapsed.
Why is it some parts of the country are undergoing overhaul & refit while others are not?
Otto Man
Are you implying that a constant supply of tax cuts isn’t keeping our infrastructure solid?
Why do you hate America?
Rex
Boy, that trillion dollars that we have pissed on Iraq could have built a lot of infrastructure.
My favorite part of the Kagan “surge” report was the part where he talks about how much goodwill a whole bunch of new construction projects would generate. Funny that the same crew of guys would scream and rant and rage against any new infrastructure initiative in this country.
jg
We should change the name of all our bridges to Victory bridges that way we’ll feel patriotic about them. Plus no one will ever say that the Victory bridge isn’t totally awesome so we’ll never even have to acknowledge it may need maintenance.
Dreggas
The wife and I heard the news blurb about tony snow saying it got a 50 out of 120 on a structure rating, my wife said “And that’s not low enough to fix it?” I replied “sadly not in this administration”. She said she guessed that now, by bush rules, it deserves to be fixed and is “structurally deficient” enough.
Levees in Louisiana,
Bridges in Minnesota (that actually lead somewhere)
what next the Hoover Dam?
JWeidner
It’s obvious that the only solution is to privatize our roads and bridges. Only through the miracle of a free and open market will new innovations in road and bridge technology take place.
Besides, what could possibly go wrong if the maintenance of a bridge was left up to a company whose only motivation was to create greater value for shareholders?
cleek
a.k.a., The Trailing Quartile.
Jake
Too bad the Iraqi people expected construction projects that were a) Complete. b) Functional. c) Don’t fall over in a light breeze.
Fussy ingrates!
ThymeZone
Our infrastructure is just fine, thank you.
If more states had far-sighted politicians like Ted Stevens, we’d have both tax cuts AND plenty of new bridges.
Besides, nobody could have anticipated this bridge collapse. People demand government that doesn’t work, that is the heart and soul of the “conservative movement.”
So, stop complaining. You are getting what you voted for.
Edmund Dantes
This is going to be a growing problem. John Q. Taxpayer doesn’t realize it, but he’s about to be left holding the bag for a lot of stuff on top of all our Bush debt. The problem is that most of the country’s infrastructure has gone by it’s “life expectancy”, and it’s going to have to be replaced or seriously over hauled. It’s not going to be cheap. New York’s little steam explosion is another sign. Stuff like that is going to happen more and more often.
The scary part is that in most major northeast cities like New York, Boston, Philadelphia, etc. they can’t even tell you what under a particular street. They have some guesswork, but for the most part it’s a maze of stuff built upon stuff built upon other stuff. One of the benefits of the Big Dig in Boston was the fact that they now have the corridor along the central artery mapped out and stuff trunked so they know where all the electrical, waterlines, etc are all located before they started they had no clue what they were digging into until they found it.
tBone
You forgot d) Don’t rain urine and feces from the upper floors.
The Other Steve
TeaJay – Where ya at? I’m down in the southwest burbs. I used to be down in Burnsville, but moved north of the river, because I was tired of taking bridges on my way to work.
I was just on that 35W bridge last weekend on our way back from Lutsen. It’s an odd bridge. You don’t even necessarily realize you are crossing a bridge, as it looks just like an overpass, unless you are in the outside lanes and can see the river.
Bubblegum Tate
You two just secured yourself lucrative positions at the Heritage Foundation. Jonah Goldberg will be coming by to write a series of articles about your brilliant, extra-American ideas within the week’s end.
Sirkowski
There is simply too many roads in the US and Canada. People got the idea that just because they have a car they should be able to drive on pavement anywhere they want. The cost for maintenance just gets higher and eventualy important infrastructures get neglected because we’re building a shit load of suburbian roads instead.
Nussmier
I was about 1/2 mile from the bridge when it went down. I wasnt on 35W but was on some surface roads nearby. It is hard to believe that so far the death from this are so low. Lets hope it stays this way. One thing I find strange about these things is how does the death count go from 9 to 4. I mean I am glad it did but did someone miracously rise from the dead? I just find it strange.
Being a resident of Minneapolis I couldnt help but think about that gas tax that Pawlenty sent to nowhere(Like Teajay above). His no new taxes mantra while our property taxes have gone up like mad is just stupid.
I used to work in the waste water treatment plant in St. Paul and I always think of the infrastructure of our country. I mean this plant is so old and in disrepear its scary. Imagine the greater metropolitan area of Minny/St. Paul not having any sewage treatment…In 2005 we came painfully close to just putting all the sewage into the plant right out into the Mississippi. Talk about a public health nightmare….
TeaJay
T.O.S. –
I’m in New Brighton just off of I694 and 35W, so I used to be on that bridge every couple of weeks. Of course, my brother is a cop and crosses — used to cross — that one ten times a day. He was off duty at the time, but I’m pretty sure he was there most of the night. Have you ever heard about the 2005 report before? I’ve seen quotes that some of the others aren’t in great shape as well. I hope that’s being blown out of proportion right now as I’d hate to think this is the start of a cascade. Sheesh.
I was just thinking about how long it will take to get that bridge replaced and it’s got to be on the order of years. I wonder how that’s going to impact this place. I’m also surprised at how quickly the politicians were on record about “an investigation” and how many times “terrorism” came up on the newscasts. Odd times.
The Other Steve
We have a couple of big projects going on, but there is a lack of funding to do everything that is needed. There’s a big bridge going up on 494 over the mississippi, and it’s been like a 3 year project already. I think they have another 1-2 years left on it.
This is the Plan the Metro council came up with if they had a lot of money… That bridge was in the “replace in 2015-2023” category it appears.
http://www.dot.state.mn.us/metro/tsp/pdfs/chapter4.pdf
This is the fiscally constrained, and even then that bridge appears on the map
http://www.dot.state.mn.us/metro/tsp/pdfs/chapter5.pdf
Our problem is, that while replacing existing stuff is important, the people are clamoring for new highways out to the countryside, etc. So there are conflicting priorities playing out here.
Even so, that bridge was on that list, but it appears they hoped it would last another 10-15 years or so.
Part of it is that transportation is more expensive in minnesota versus say Georgia, because we have winter to contend with. We spend a lot of money on plowing and such, and we have to repair roads frequently after winter.
Zifnab
The expanded population and commerce is supposed to pay for that. You build a road out into the suburbs, people follow, businesses follow, and taxes on those people and businesses pay to maintain the road.
But people and businesses don’t like taxes, and politicians are greedy, so the money that is supposed to pay for the roads gets funneled into god-knows-what pork project or just cropped off as tax-cuts for the rich.
We’re dropping $10(12?) billion a month on a Mid-East War. We’ve got the money for this, but we’d rather spend it on cool shit like a failed foreign democracy and more dead “terrorists”.
The Other Steve
TeaJay – Nobody has talked about that bridge. But check those links I put above to the met council. That bridge appears on their maps, that they knew something had ot be done in the next 10-15 years.
I suspect it’s going to take 2-3 years or more to replace that 35W bridge. First they need a plan, and I doubt anybody has that ready yet. A plan for a bridge has to go through so many reviews… engineering, geological and so forth. It’s going to cost a lot to get this done.
The state doesn’t have the money right now. The Wakota Bridge was a $250 million project and has taken like 3 years already, and they’re only half done. Granted, it’s a bit of a longer bridge and they have to contend with traffic flow.
Maybe it’s time to cancel the twins stadium, and divert the funds?
Nussmier
T.O.S. I was thinking the same thing about the bridge. Minimum 3 years. I have worked for the MetCouncil. They are not the fastest moving organization in the world. I am also sure they will be extra extra careful with rebuilding it so it will probably be longer. Not to minimize the tragedy but I am just happy I live in south Minneapolis and bike just about everywhere I go…
TeaJay
Cancel the Twins stadium? Are you trying to make Santana’s head explode? You’re one of those secret Joe Mauer haters aren’t you?
Good question though – where’s the money going to come from? The cities vs. greater MN may dust up more than usual.
Krista
There are still maintenance costs associated with dirt roads, however. Every single year, the Dept. of Highways has to come to our road and fill the potholes, grade it, and re-gravel it. Every year. Part of me wonders if it wouldn’t be less expensive for them to pave it, as they then wouldn’t have to maintain it quite so often.
I don’t know how it works for you folks, but up here, our taxes on gas are supposed to be earmarked for road maintenance. Unfortunately, it doesn’t quite work out that way. Instead, you get good maintenance on the city streets and the major highways. Whereas the rural roads (consisting of the people who actually tend to do a lot more driving than city dwellers, thereby buying more gas and paying more taxes), look like a war’s been fought on them.
John Cole
In portions of WV, they used to spray oil on dirt roads to keep the dust down. Put that in your environment and smoke it.
jg
LOL
Jake
Or throw a match on it and inhale.
Punchy
Wait, that bridge went down in Minny?
Minneapolis, Baghdad….Baghdad, Minneapolis….
ThymeZone
Same here in AZ. They had oiled roads right here in the middle of Phoenix.
Nowadays, with air quality standards, there is no way that will fly any more. The dust and the oil are seen as pollutants. In fact, even parking on dirt will get you a huge fine here now, for stirring up particulates.
JKC
Same thing in upstate NY, of all places. I used to think nothing of the practice (other than the amount of work it made in washing my dad’s car.) Now I shake my head and cringe.
myiq2xu
One of the unintended (but foreseeable) consequences to the tax-cut mania that swept the nation beginning in the late 1970’s was the postponement of infrastructure maintenance.
“If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” became policy.
Well, the bridge is broke, I guess we can fix it now.
Dave
Drive around a bit in Northern California and you’ll see exactly what neglect has done to our infrastructure. Don’t need a report to tell you that.
Krista
Yeah, our dirt roads were oiled too. I also had lead-based paint on my crib (upon which I used to chew quite heartily), biked without a helmet, rode on Mom’s lap in the car sans seatbelt, and used to regularly share my ice cream cone with our family mutt.
How in hell am I still alive?
Getting back to infrastructure, though, I do wish we had a rail system like that of Europe – it would certainly ease the burden on our roads. It’s just not feasible, however, due to the sprawling nature of our respective countries.
Zifnab
You’re not. You and 100 million other Americans are suffering from early stages of zombie-ism. Now that you’re more or less dead, expect to start craving brains, shambling through malls and downtown crosswalks, and voting Republican.
DragonScholar
Dave,
Ironically I moved to NoCal from the midwest. What I see out here is BETTER than what I had to deal with by far.
Regarding the report in question, the sad fact is there have been reports like this being put out for years.
I recall this report:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7137552/
From two years ago.
ThymeZone
Can’t we just hire Halliburton and KBR to fix all the bridges?
Surely we trust them and surely we know they will give us value for our tax dollars.
tBone
Except she’s a Canadian, not an American. Her zombieism is probably the result of an encounter with a stray undead elf or reindeer left behind after the War on Christmas.
And hey, TWOC would explain the atrocious state of her roads, too.
ThymeZone
So, I am sitting here listening to the officials droning on into microphones in MN, about this bridge collapse …
All I gotta say is, I’ve heard nothing of value to a citizen, and a lot … and I mean a LOT …. of self serving, self justifying blather that does nothing but raise more questions in my mind about whether these people really have any idea what the fuck they are doing.
The ruins of the bridge sit behind them, bodies still in cars underwater, and there these idiots stand telling us what a great job they are doing.
I’ll spare TOS the ignominy of dealing with me saying, if this is how they do things in MN, then if I were him, I’d move ….. but it isn’t MN. It’s the whole of our governmental systems now, across the US, at the local, state and national level. We appear to be screwed.
Screwed.
Rome Again
I’ve tried not to do this lately, but I have to wholeheartedly concur!
Michael
http://news.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/02/bridge-collapses-in-minneapolis/#comment-78869
Good comments by an engineering professor about the bridge:
A Metallurgist’s Insights Into the Minneapolis Bridge Disaster
Joel S. Hirschhorn
Ripley
The important thing to remember is that there hasn’t been another bridge collapse in the past… mmm… 21 hours.
Bush RULES!!!!
What…??
Zifnab
Why don’t we ever hear about all the bridges that don’t collapse?
melonhead
Krista, eating lead paint off of your crib will not kill you, but it definitely will lower your IQ. Oops, I think I said too much.
Z
Here in Missouri road infrastructure projects are going up like mad. Over passes are being replaced, roads repaved, etc. Basically what happened is that a bill authorizing the state to issue bonds was passed. Plus, legislation was passed that required a certain percentage of vehicle sales taxes to go into transportation (instead of general revenue). That meant less health care and services for the poor, but better infrastructure. Unfortunately, fuel and vehicle sales tax revenues are not keeping up with construction costs, so by 2010, we expect to have only enough funds to pay our highway project debt and do minimal maintenance.
As this is a very anti-tax state, I expect our roads will be crappy again in no time.
Z
Krista
Ha ha ha…..ooh, shiny!
The Other Steve
That would be Pawlenty. He’s not well liked up here. He’s not hated either. Actually the nicest thing you can say about him is that he hasn’t been arrested for sexually abusing children, unlike most of his friends in the Republican party.
He’s McCain’s choice to be VP… so after Johnny boy gets the nomination you’ll be seeing more of him.
Gus
Christ, it would almost be worth a McCain presidency to have Pawlenty out of MN. I drove under that bridge about an hour before the collapse. This isn’t what Minnesota used to be like. We used to be high tax/high service. We were among the tops in education and infrastructure. It used to work, but the anti-tax crowd fucked it up. I really hope Minnesotans learn something from this.
demimondian
There’s a roughly cyclical pattern of generations: one generation builds up a huge surplus, and leaves behind an aggressive set of programs for improving infrastructure and “well understood” services although it also extends the program into more speculative services. The next acting on the basis of the failures of some — but not all — of those programs, revolts, cuts taxes, and lives off the surplus of the first generation for a while. During the period of domination by that latter generation, something crashes, and because the surplus is spent, the third generation gets stuck rebuilding the country after the profligacy of its parents.
CJ
Like the fact that there is a minimum cost for a certain level of services and that if you cut taxes below that cost, the services suffer?
You are more likely to get folks from St. Paul to shop in Minneapolis or vice versa. The fact that the bridge fell down is just one more reason not to cross the river.
cj
Otto Man
Tucker Carlson just launched a segment asking if the bridge collapse means the Republicans are right about needing to privatize public services, and then criticized Patti Murray for “politicizing” the event.
What a buffoon.
Tulkinghorn
Also linked to an increased propensity for violence, so watch out!
AnonE.Mouse
I won’t be surprised if this becomes a recurring story over the next decades.I can’t turn on the TV without CNN,MSNBC,etc(but not FAUX-never FAUX)reporting on the tragedy,but our deteriorating infrastructure nationwide is not a story I’ve seen them address yet-it would certainly be a valuable service to let the public know this is occurring in their towns and cities(and why).My wife has to have a Xanax(washed down with a beer-maybe I’ll drive next time) every time we cross the Mackinac Bridge(50 years old now),which prompts my teasing,now I don’t know…
It would also be timely for the media to address the opportunity costs associated with the occupation of Iraq(I won’t hold my breath).Our township,which faces Lake Huron,has priced a sewer system along the lakefront(the state of Michigan has been shamefully neglectful about what can go into the water-there’s no statewide standards despite our partial stewardship of 4 of the 5 Great Lakes )to replace substandard and sometimes nonexistent septic systems.About $20 million lays pipe and builds a treatment facility(which could be shared with neighboring twsps,reducing costs substantially)-it’s alot of money,probably too expensive to convince our residents to spring for if it’s not mandated(yet),too expensive for the state government now that successive Republican legislatures and a declining auto industry have facilitated our descent to third world nationhood,but less than 2 hours spending in Iraq.
The Other Steve
Perhaps Target can sponsor it?
It can have a big red target in the center of it, to make it easier for the terrorists to spot.
ThymeZone
Yes, Carlson is right, let the free market decide how safe our bridges should be. If people in city X want safe bridges, then, let them pay for them. If city Y doesnt, then …. well, don’t drive over the bridges in city Y.
What’s wrong with that? Safe bridges for the rich, just like healthcare for the rich. At least it’s consistent.
RSA
One area we do sometimes see stories about is maintenance for urban schools, and the difficulty in allocating money for upkeep. I think the general perception is that you if you pay for it once, it should last forever. It’s shortsighted but natural, I think; not a good thing.
cain
I would love to see that. Super-fast trains, maybe they could like hype it up as the “transcontinental railroad 2” or TC NG or something like that. The problem is that they’ll do a half ass job of it.
In Portland, we have Trimet light rail. I distinctly remembered the Republicans fighting the light rail out to the west suburbs because small businesses would lose out because they’d no longer feel obliged to stop at some store and shop. They’ve obviously still think we live in 1950. These days we have the attention span of a rodent. I remember being seriously annoyed by the rhetoric.
Because of all that, the compromise was a light rail with no express rail. So going from the west suburbs to the downtown (30 minutes by car) now takes 45 minutes. If they had an express rail they would have been able to reach downtown in about 15 minutes. It would have guaranteed less traffic on the road. They could have added a “shopping” car or something to the train if they were so damned concerned about it.
I’m still holding onto a dream of a fast rail corridor between portland and seattle so I could take my cycle and travel around easily (and quickly) from one city to another without it taking an entire day. (it takes like 4 hours to go by Amtrak because it has to stop at every freaking station along the way)
That my friends is the sorry state of rails in this country. You can blame car lobbies and obstructionist republicans who seem think the car economy is the best thing ever. But there are parts where it makes sense to go rail.
Pfah.
cain
jake
OT: I find it very depressing that Fisher-Price toys are being recalled due to high lead levels. That’s like … learning that having friends increases your chances of getting pancreatic cancer. What next? Radioactive Legos?
The Other Steve
cain – We built a light rail here in Minneapolis. I have to admit at the time I was a big opponent, as it didn’t seem to me it went anywhere people wanted to go.
It’s been a tremendous success though, the rail has like double the ridership anybody expected. It takes about 30 minutes to get downtown.
But to make sure you couldn’t drive downtown that fast, they made sure to time the stop lights so as to slow the cars down. :-)
cain
Oy. I hate when they do that. What happens is that it causes drives to run the red. Then the police starts throwing their arms up in the air saying “oh my gawd, people are running th red we gotta do something!” So they start adding those photo sensors and pissing away several million dollars only to have drivers say “you can’t prove that was me driving the car.” and have the ticket thrown out. And now we’ve spent tax dollars on worthless shit when a one time cost of a traffic controller to find the optimal traffic flow for maybe a quarter of the price.
But I’m not bitter.. It’s stuff like this that I wish we actually had some middle of the road party that knows how to do governance taking the best ideas of both sides. Why God? Why can’t we have that?
Where’s my beer.. it’s time to get bitter.
cain
Person of Choler
Forgetting for a moment the evils of G.W. Bush or the wickedness of tax cuts, how many thorough bridge inspections could be performed with the $315 million slated for the inevitable construction of Alaska’s Bridge to Nowhere?
It would be nice if our legislators would swap a few [legislator’s-name-here]Cultural Center type earmarked pork barrel projects for something useful, like bridge condition monitoring.
How about something like the “Robert C. Byrd Bridge Safety Assessment Program” instead of things like the “Robert C. Byrd Bridge between Huntington and Chesapeake, Ohio”
ThymeZone
Well, you have to first establish what a party actually is.
It’s not like opening a car dealership. It’s a coalition of interests and resources, and the fuel that runs it is manipulation. You can have your “party” when you can convince a large number of people, spanning demos and income classifications and interests and even cultural tendencies that the new “party” is going to give them what they think they want and need.
The chances of doing that are near zero, of course, since all the oxygen in the process is sucked up by the existing parties. What is more likely is an antiestablishment candidate who comes along, like Jesse Ventura, making promises he can’t keep and thinking that “fuck you” is strategy for building consensus, and fooling enough people or splitting off enough votes to get elected to something. Until the voters find out that they elected an idiot or a crazy person, and then you are back to square one.
My opinion is that reform is best attempted from within an existing party. I like the idea of a Democratic Party made up of Webbs and Obamas. People who have brains and ideas and some integrity.
BIRDZILLA
And the vultures are circling the lawyers are already probibly planing their lawsuits