Sullivan links to an archived graphic of bad bridges in the US, and a couple things stand out:
1.) If you look at the blown up map, Brooke, Hancock and Ohio County in WV are all marked red (as is Mon. County), meaning they have problem bridges. That region, the northern panhandle of WV, has it’s old industrial base along the Ohio River; Koppers, Wheeling-Pittsburgh and Weirton Steel, Fostoria glass (not sure how many if any of these are still in business) and many other industries reside or used to reside there. If you drive from Wheeling to Weirton up old Route, it seems like you can not go 1/4 mile without seeing an old steel bridge.
The point- there are a ton of bridges, and I am not sure how many are still operational, and if the archive is conflating the older out of use bridges and the newer bridges for civilian traffic.
2.) When I first looked at the map, I thought “Gee- the SW doesn’t have many bad bridges at all.” Then I realized I am a moron.
3.) Of the industrial centers with a number of waterways, it appears that Oregon and Washington stand alone as being in good repair. There might be a lesson to be learned by comparing the relationship between state and local government in regards to infrastructure in those states and New York, in which it looks like there is not a safe bridge anywhere.
Pretty interesting, though.
ThymeZone
I just read that it might take $188b to fix or replace all the bridges that need it in the US.
That’s less than half of what we have already wasted on Iraq.
Any questions? RudyFredMitt for president, anyone?
aliceandbob
Damn. NY is boned.
cleek
NY’s status might be a reflection of the fact that a bridge on the NY thruway collapsed back in 87, killing 10. they’ve probably done a full survey of all the bridges in the state since then, and are being more cautious than states who haven’t had similar disasters.
or, maybe they just don’t know how to build bridges.
demimondian
Actually, Washington is deceptive. It’s true that most of our bridges are in good repair…but the three which are in desperate straits are the three of the five most heavily traveled bridges in the state, including one, a drawbridge in Tacoma, that the state DOT has literally been trying to close for a decade.
ThymeZone
That’s okay, as long as they know how to get in front of the cameras when something falls down.
Leadership is all about being the first guy in front of the microphones when something terrible happens.
capelza
I mentioned in another thread that our Oregon bridges (except Portland apparantly, judging from the news last night, you know, the nightly “be afraid, be very afraid” local reporting) are well taken care of.
The one that struck me as funny though was the big red section in SW Alaska. What bridges? What roads for that matter. Okay there are roads, but I’ve driven on all 100 miles (pretty much) of them and there ain’t no big bridge there to even worry about.
I agree with TZ about the money (and blood) wasted in Iraq.
It is mind-bobbling when you mention to someone, who says 10/20 or even a hundred million is too much for a bridge yet they don’t really blink when you tell them how much we spend a DAY in Iraq (what? A hundred million a day or so?)
Jason
So we went from catfood.catfood.catfood! to bridges.bridges.bridges! Next month it will be something else and nothing will have been fixed.
Fixing infastructure is bad politics. Its expensive and they don’t provide for very good photo-ops.
Its all doomed to crumble. It will happen slowly and less dramatically than in MN so no one will care much less notice.
Stare at the painting for a bit, then walk to the next one for you next dose of fear and outrage. Quick, everyone google and become an internet expert before the topic changes.
Thank god for the townhall-badgering semi-senile elderly folk who take their local sewer lines more seriously than most people take their kids. They seem to be the only ones I’ve met who have the gumption (and free time to endlessly pester the politicians) to see these types of things through.
End jaded rant. Sorry for wasting space.
Toolshed
Actually in Seattle, we have the scariest damn bridge ever. The elevated double decker Alaskan Way Viaduct (Thats a double decker highway suspended over a combination of streets and parking lots). It will literally crumble any minute but goddamn if it aint the most beautiful to enter the city.
We’re tearing it down in the next few years and replacing it which is going to cost millions so we’re all secretly hoping for an earthquake to take it down for us.
Desargues
ThymeZone beat me to it, so I’ll just make a sort of follow-up point.
188 billions gets you functioning bridges and highways. An extra 80 billions or so will get you decent schools to educate an increasingly dimwitted, illiterate populace. When aded together, that’s 270 billions — the price for staying on top of the global economic game. (Of course, a country needs a bit more than a healthy infrastructure and an educated citizenry to remain the world’s biggest industrial democracy, but it’s a great start) You can round it up to 300 billions, and give the country the infrastructure for cheap, fast internet access.
Or you can spend 500 billions to win a Pyrrhic victory, the scornful pity of the West, and the fear and hatred of pretty much everyone else.
Way to go, G-Dubs.
ThymeZone
Well, it looks just like that monstrosity in Oakland that came down in an earthquake and squashed dozens of cars full of people.
Um, you might want to revise and extend your remarks ….
demimondian
It *is* just like the bay bridge, only worse.
I won’t even drive on it, and I run whenever I need to walk underneath it.
Sstarr
In Washington – and most of the west coast – bridges have to be in more than good repair. They have to be built and maintained to survive a significant earthquake. In the past 10 years there have been major seismic retrofits for two of the main bridges in Seattle. I think it’s safe to say that no bridge in Seattle would collapse under normal usage, but that there are a number that would disintegrate in a 7.0 earthquake.
Toolshed
Given the fact that I’m driving on that thing quite a bit, you can safely assume I’m joking. It takes a minute and 15 seconds to cross that death trap and for that brief amount of time each day I become devoutly religious. Of course, once I cross safely I go right back to being a snarky, ass of an atheist.
grumpy realist
Is that the same Tacoma known for the infamous Tacoma Narrows bridge collapse?
(Movie shown to all entering MIT frosh to explain why you gotta worry about resonance.)
capelza
You think the Alaskan Way is scary, try the Marquam Bridge in Portland. I HATE driving on that thing. It curves and tilts in an alarming way, to me anyway, high above the river at full speed.
If a 7.0 hits any city in the PNW, bridges are the least of my worries. All those old unreinforced brick buildings? And the hills with neighbourhoods thick on them. It ain’t going to be pretty.
A natural “Denny Regrade” in reverse.
Tim F.
I hate to tell you this, but when the fault under Seattle goes it won’t be a 7.0 quake. It only goes once every 10k years or so, but when it does it releases (according to my college shake & bake teacher) about as much energy as the San Andreas over the same period of time. Except all at once.
How long has it been since the last time it went? Funny question.
Bob Barbaque
We are fighting them over there so that we wont have to fight them here.
Almost as ridiculous as the alaskan bridge to nowhere,
and par for gingrich’s bridge from the government to the american people.
Since our resources are needed in Iraq then it does not matter that the domestic infrastructure is in a state of
decrepitude.
This administration is doing a heckuva job when it comes its
obligations to keep america safe,
but in my scorekeeping of the consevative branch of government this is not an abnormal state.
NOLA,Kansas,Minnie St.Marie all victims of a vengeful cloudbeing reighning down destruction on a country who has
turned its back on It’s second favorite son and embraced
Homosexuals,Minorities and illegal Immigrants and dare I say
the name Beauchamp!
The thing that I find exceedingly ironic is the re-election of the crawford rhubarb and his band of marymen,
I cannot stress this enough:Please,Please,Please do not cast votes for a candidate based upon identification with a candidate because they say favorable things to your inner-bubba or do not vote because of hate.
We will be right back in the same old leaky boat and this country has just about ran out of Bill Clintons to save us.
IMO of course.
In the words of the human torch:Flame On!
zzyzx
“How long has it been since the last time it went? Funny question.”
Rainier’s about due for a major eruption too. It’s something that gives life a little more spice.
Toolshed
They’ve been predicting “the big one” here since I was a kid. I should also mention the viaduct is built on tidal flats and travels along the most tourist traveled area of town.
Don’t get me started on the giant fucking volcano thats supposed to blow anytime now as well.
capelza
Tim F. The last “big one” was about 1700.
You teacher has it a bit wrong, the average for the whoppers is about every 400 to 700 years (going from memory) and “we” are due. We being everyone from northern California (and I mean NORTHERN, not the Bay Area) to southern Canada. I love this country sandwiched between the ocean and the mountains, but it’s not for the faint of heart. The tsunamis could finish off the coast.
There was a fairly substantial earthquake in the Seattle area in 1965, 6.5 and another, in 2001 at 6.8. So maybe a 7.0 wouldn’t do that much damage, come to think of it, but I wouldn’t want to be in one of the cities to find out. One of my favourite hotels is in Vancouver, I always get a room up high. But it does cross my mind that if I was to live in fear, that wouldn’t be the place for me.
Toolshed
They’ve been predicting “the big one” here since I was a kid. I should also mention the viaduct is built on tidal flats and travels along the most tourist traveled area of town.
Don’t get me started on the giant friggin volcano thats supposed to blow anytime now as well.
Sock Puppet of the Great Satan
” I love this country sandwiched between the ocean and the mountains, but it’s not for the faint of heart. ”
Do what we did in San Francisco: Move to where at least two neighbours are USGS seismologists. I ain’t ever gonna move now.
Punchy
Rand McNally you are not. As for the roads in WV, having traveled there lately, I was very impressed. In Morgantown proper…not so much. But the interstate was fantabulous.
By the way, I consulted my gradeschool nursery rhymes, and apparently, bridges only fall down in London. My fair lady.
Bubblegum Tate
Honestly, every time I drive across the Bay Bridge (which is fairly frequently), I get just a tiny bit antsy. Not so much on the San Francisco side of Treasure Island, as that span is at least in better shape to hold up to an earthquake, but the Oakland side? Touchy.
Dreggas
Nope NY’s bridges are completely fubar. As I said the one we had to use daily was officially condemned but remained open. No trucks over 10 tons were allowed on it since anything over had the potential to do it in. The Schoharie creek bridge collapse you mentioned was the result of heavy, heavy rain and flooding and the “creek” becoming a deluge that washed the bridge away (I remember that one well).
zzyzx
We got lucky with the 2001 quake. That was after an extremely dry winter which meant that the mud slide risk was lowered. I still wonder what would have happened if it had hit an hour later and Pioneer Square buildings had bricks fall down upon lunch goers. For that matter, many of my friends attended a late night concert at the loft two days before the quake, one that caused the ceiling to fall down. Sometimes I wonder if there would have been a panicked stampede down the stairs to the one narrow door. I try not to think about it too much though.
capelza
I live across the bay from a world class research center, that I used to work for. I am so wired into those guys.
And many of us locals already have our evac routes planned in case the big one comes, we survive and have to head for the hills to avoid the tsunami (there’s an evac sign right in front of my house on the highest hill above the bay)..it’s logging roads all the way. We have an older 4WD pickup with a saw in it, just for that reason (okay I am paranoid). The one highway east will be clogged so fast it will be useless.I can’t imagine what it would be like to try to evac a big city.
Oh wait, I do. NOLA and Houston.
Dreggas
Why do bridges Hate America?
cleek
i don’t doubt that many are. i just don’t believe they’re that much worse, in every single county of NY, than the rest of the country. i just think NY probably went to the trouble of looking at their bridges, after the thruway incident, while the rest of the country hasn’t.
or, look at it this way: anyone want to bet against Minnesota being all-red next time they draw this map ?
Fruitbat Jones
Jeff, or Beau?
uptown
It’s likely that there will be a lot emergency patching being done around the country, once they figure out exactly where and how the bridge failed in MN.
John Cole
Our highways are amazing- you can thank Byrd for that.
Bubblegum Tate
Yeah, I’ve plotted similar stuff as well–escape routes and the whole nine. A friend of a friend claims to have a good meeting place for us all if we have to evac–a guy he knows lives inland a little bit and completely off the grid. I feel sort of weird even contemplating this stuff as it’s so schlock-movie-doomsday-scenario-ish, but still, it’s sort of necessary.
capelza
Yeah, if you type it out, it does sound bad. But then again, look what happened in NOLA. It doesn’t take much for orderly society to break down. Even in the good old USA. And you know you’re on your own, again look at NOLA. Except that FOX and CNN will be able to get in with their crews. Go figure.
The Other Steve
Look, I think it’s fair safe to say that we here in Minnesota have the worst bridge in the nation.
The problem with our bridge, is that rather then spanning across the river, it’s currently sitting under the river. Not a very good bridge.
RSA
I’m no geographer, but I think these maps are interesting: You can get to the major geographical features of any given state, including waterways. It’s not too detailed, though (no bridges, of course). I was surprised, for example, that the only bad bridge area in Florida was in the north.
zzyzx
By the way, we’re going to have a major roads improvement bill on the ballot this November. People were expecting it to fail, but I suspect its chances of passing have improved dramatically.
Mike
If I’m reading that map right (and I really wish it were about 20% bigger), neither Minneapolis nor St. Paul is listed as being in danger zone.
Cain
Isn’t the sellwood bridge badly in need of being replaced?
cain
capelza
Yeah, Cain, that was the major one they talked about.
The Steel Bridge, too. But they just spent a ton of money on the St. John’s bridge, so I assume they’re working on getting to the others. I haven’t gone over the Sellwood in a long time, it’s creepy, but not as creepy as the Marquam (slid hard on ice on that one once, I get nauseous just thinking about it.) Cross the St.John’s a lot because we have family there.
The Sellwoodight get some attention sooner now, though. Though it isn’t like the bridge problem hasn’t been talked about prior, I’ve seen it on the news before.
elspi
your tax cuts at work
fupDuck
“My goal is to cut government in half … to get it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub”
Or in the Mississippi. Grover Norquist should have been under the bridge when it collapsed.
Jake
An excessively geeky question: When a bridge is built does the engineer calculate how much traffic it can take (in theory) before it will need repair? If the calculated average weight of vehicles that will cross the bridge in a given amount of time is X, but the actual weight is X + Y, wouldn’t that speed up the decay of the structure?
Yes, I’m thinking of SUVs. I’m not saying that every single SUV is Teh Devil. I’m NOT saying SUVs caused the brdige to collapse, but a Tahoe is a lot heavier than say, an Accord and if the calculations are based on the average car being more Accord-like when it is really more Tahoe-like it would explain why bridges/roads are so screwed.
Of course compensating for heavier passenger vehicles would mean more materials, more frequent maintenance, more screaming about the expense…
Since they moved it to Havasu City I think it will be OK.
Julie
The Marquam and the Fremont scare me way more than the Sellwood because of the double-decker squish factor if they did collapse.
That being said, the Sellwood bridge was not designed to handle the constant stream of SUVs coming from Lake-O. I’m pretty sure people were still using horse-and-buggies and the occasional Model T when that thing went up.
grumpy realist
Usually one calculates the expected maximum stress load, then throws in a fudge factor of somewhere between 3 to 10 times. Most bridges are in fact over-designed–it’s just that what happens to them is well, metal fatigue, cracks, and corrosion–the whole nine yards. You can’t design a bridge to last “forever” unless you want to go back to stone aqueducts. Stone’s pretty good.
(Earthquakes? Don’t talk to me about any stinkin’ earthquakes….I’ve reached the stage where I don’t even really wake up. Mind does an automatic calculation as to whether it’s the Big One or not, then I drop off completely again.)
Cain
Fremont though is a pretty beautiful bridge. Coming in from Seattle it feels like your swooping in into downtown from the sky. Not so fun going the other way though. I agree that a bridge collapsing and your on the bottom will not be pretty.
(we seem to have plenty of people from Oregon here)
cain
J. Michael Neal
Don’t get me started on the giant fucking volcano thats supposed to blow anytime now as well.
And it is. “Anytime now” is just a bit different on a geological time scale than it is for the average commute.
If I’m reading that map right (and I really wish it were about 20% bigger), neither Minneapolis nor St. Paul is listed as being in danger zone.
They aren’t. However, if you look at that map again, you’ll see that it’s from 1994. Whether it bears any relation to what the situation is today, I have no idea. Sully was even worse with numbers than usual here.
TenguPhule
Fixed for accuracy as to what the Right really means.
bob mcmanus
Re #2, FWIW Texas has more bridges than any state in the Union, and a separate Department of Bridges. Most of them are over creek beds that are dry most of the year.
capelza
Cain, I agree about the Fremont. It is a beautiful bridge, and even though it’s double decker I always love crossing it for exactly the reason you stated. It’s a pretty bridge, too.
Though not as purty as mine, in Newport.
Though if it collapsed, being so high, I don’t know that it would matter which deck you on, 175 feet is long way to drop.
Like the Newport bridge, that puppy falls and no one survives most likely.
Julie
The Fremont is gorgeous. I love it going southbound, but not so much from the other direction. Depnding on where I’m going, I’ll often take Hwy 30 instead.
We really do. There seems to be a large Oregon-Washington faction among the commenters.