As I was lying down to sleep last night, I was trying to think of which candidates appeal to me as people. The reason for this is not because I am going to vote that way, but because I find so many of the candidates repellent. I really just do not like John Edwards- he is fake and will say anything. Double that for Mitt Romney, who makes John Kerry look positively dogmatic. So I went through the list on both sides, and came up with a really odd list of the folks I think are decent and sincere when I listen to them speak:
Chris Dodd
Joe Biden
Dennis Kucinich
Mike Huckabee
Sam Brownback
A couple of quick observations- I find it amusing that the two Republicans I like ‘personally’ (if you can call it that) are the two who deny evolution. There is something sincere about the two, though (something that is explored with Huckabee in this article). I simply can not explain my perception of Brownback, given that he is crazy and on the wrong side of virtually every issue I think is important (although the more I think about it, the more my opinion of Brownback makes sense. One of my favorite people from my days at Red State is Leon Wolf, a man I probably don’t agree with about ANYTHING anymore, but who was always a decent person. Not surprisingly, he is working for the Brownback campaign.)
Dennis Kucinich is kinda crazy, although I think he is less crazy every day as I watch this administration, but he seems like someone who would have lived next door in my small college town when I was growing up (my small college town is filled with weird, eccentric, and awesome people- Dennis would fit right in). The same for Joe Biden- he is loud, talkative, loves the sound of his own voice, has moments of grumpy outbursts, but at the same time comes across as earnest and friendly and with his head and heart generally in the right place, even when you disagree with him.
And then we have Chris Dodd. Not sure why he is on this list, as he is not particularly personable, but maybe it is because he exudes competence, something I think we are all ready for after the last few years.
Punchy
Hillary has cleavage.
Mr Furious
We can’t have President Dodd…he grows a beard during the recess*, and that’s like that crazy liar Al Gore.
*Does he still do that? I haven’t lived in CT in fifteen years…
ThymeZone
Hmm. You “don’t like” one guy who is “fake and will say anything?” Could we get a little support for that claim? Be sure to include anything that establishes fakeness in other candidates so that we can understand how you “measured” this.
And then you include on your “like” list a guy who has apparently been running for president since he was in kindergarten, who has no chance whatever and had his last “serious” bid derailed by a plaigarism charge, and a couple of seriously mentally ill rightwingers who most of us wouldn’t trust to run a lemonade stand.
Is this the day you chose to try your hand at complete (but not very good) spoof?
A practical joke?
Just wanting to see if we are paying attention?
Mr Furious
Seriously? I hear what you’re saying, John. Even if I disagree with each of the guys on occasion at least I feel like I know where they’re coming from. Even the Fundies.
Dodd – With the exception of the War vote, he seems to always be on the right side of the issue—my side! And he admits his Iraq vote was a mistake. He’s got no chance, unfortunately. I can hope he’s somebody’s VP. He does exude competence intelligence and thoroughness.
Biden – Dead to me as a shepard of the Bankruptcy Bill. But he makes a good talk show guest. Kind of the Dem version of what people used to think McCain was—straight talker who’ll bash his own side on occasion.
Kucinich – I’d love him to be my mayor, maybe even governor, but not President. Thanks for playing though.
Brownback and Huckabee – I guess these guys are sincere in what they believe. Even if it makes them completely unqualified in my opinion. Points for that.
John Cole
Sorry. I don’t like edwards and Romney, they feel scripted, and I am not the only person who thinks they are that way.
I don’t think anywhere in this post I said that I am leaning towards voting for any of them, just that these are the folks I think are decent, personable people. Having said that, out of the list I have here, the one I would vote for is Dodd.
In fact, right now, Dodd is the only candidate I wold vote for out of both parties. Just not impressed with the rest of the field.
Andrew
Christ, I don’t like Edwards and I have every reason to like him. I live in Chapel Hill and would be volunteering all of the time if Obama was based here. I mean, it would mainly be to meet chicks, so that’s how much I’m not into Edwards.
I wouldn’t buy a newspaper from Biden, he is so slimy.
Sock Puppet of the Great Satan
“Dennis Kucinich is kinda crazy, although I think he is less crazy every day as I watch this administration, but he seems like someone who would have lived next door in my small college town when I was growing up (my small college town is filled with weird, eccentric, and awesome people- Dennis would fit right in). ”
Plus, we’d get a real hottie as First Lady.
Shinobi
Y’know, I like a lot of people, and I dislike a lot of people. But whether or not I like or dislike them has very little bearing on whether or not I think they would be a good president.
I also feel it is important to note that the guys who feel less scripted and more honest could, in the end, just be better actors. Personally I prefer bad liars, then theoretically they can’t get away with as much.
(Though I do wish the Edwards campaign would stop asking me for money every time they do ANYTHING. It comes across as desperate and that’s just not attractive.)
Dave
Ah, all this presidential talk is for nothing.
A week before the inauguration Bush will propose a law that will nullify the election and make he and Cheney the surpreme rulers of the United States and the Democratic Congress will dutifully vote for it.
Mr Furious
John, check out Glenn Greenwald’s interview with Dodd.
Punchy
I did NOT see that coming…
God damn that’s funny.
michael
here’s what I don’t get: how is this “I think he is sincere” in any way _relevant_ to how good a president this person might be? I mean yeah, I can see how you might think about this, but why does it matter? It shouldn’t matter fuck all whether the guy you want to be president is also somebody who you’d like to dring beer with. I mean be honest, the people you (or I) drink beer with would make horrible presidents.
ThymeZone
I don’t hink you guys would even support Jesus if he were running.
Except, Andrew would canvas for him, to pick up chicks.
Okay, we all would, but that’s not the point.
ThymeZone
Chris Dodd has cleavage.
mrmobi
Yep Shinobi, I feel the same way.
I don’t like Hillary Clinton, but she pretty much kicked Obama’s foreign policy ass last week.
I don’t like the too perfect hair of John Edwards, but his policy ideas seem to make good sense.
As far as Biden, I agree with Mr. Furious:
I like his ideas about Iraq though. The country is, after all, a construct of the British government. Why not help it separate into three distinct countries? Biden would make a good SecState for Hillary.
Kucinich seems moonbatty to me, and I like him, but that wife. Lordy!
Brownback actually seems likeable to me, for a science denier, xenophobe, etc. He is currently my favorite among the Party of Torture candidates, because I believe his selection would guarantee a Republican failure in 2008.
John, I thought we were abandoning that whole “electing a guy you’d like to have a beer with” thing. At least, I think it’s a good idea to do that. Look what it got us.
Rusty Shackleford
I used to think more of Huckabee but I saw a couple of interviews with him and was greatly disappointed in his answers. He speaks in “code” – like wanting more charter schools because they’re better in arts and sciences (yeah, right – nice try fundie) and he jumped on the “I’m a GOP candidate so I have to bash Michael Moore – even though I DIDN’T see the the movie I’m criticizing” wagon.
Screw Huckabee.
Geez, Joe Biden once committed plagiarism. Definitely not fit for President. George W. Bush, on the other hand, didn’t finish his military service, was a cokehead and an alcoholic, got caught by the SEC for some impropriety, mocked a condemed woman before her execution, was a complete fuck-up in the Presidential debates and he was more than acceptable for the office of the President.
I’m not saying people don’t live and learn – but you’ve certainly come a long way, baby.
When Iraq splits into three parts remember that Biden was telling you that would happen for years.
You pretty much nail Dodd and Kucinich. I think Dodd would make a nice, non-threatening Veep, if a candidate wanted to go that way. He’s the type that would never embarrass an admininstration and always receive high approval ratings.
Sam Brownback may be sincere in his beliefs and appears to be a decent enough man but he’s a dipshit from a part of the country that exports far too many dipshits. He’s not qualified. Oh, and he’s as dumb as a box of rocks.
Regarding Edwards being “phony” and “it’s not just me, a lot of people feel that way”. That’s weak. The same thing can be said about any generic person and it goes on far too much. Geez, why stop at phony – why don’t you throw in that you don’t think he’s man enough because he gets a $400 haircut? Lot’s of people think that, too.
And a whole shitload of people think George W. Bush is the bestus mostus fantastic Preznit who ever lived. And the FOX News boys aren’t the only ones who think that…
Doubting Thomas
John: I can be pretty certain that you felt Bush was the most sincere and authentic guy as well. You do admit voting for him twice after all. So how did listening to your gut work out on that?
isn’t it time we didn’t listen to our gut and just listened to what they were actually saying? Can we all please get beyond the image?
Dodd may sound great, but he’s been in Senate for how long now? How’s he been protecting our civil liberties? He’s talking a good game now, but he’s been in the Congress for so long that he must bear some responsibility for how things currently are. If I look at his voting record, I’m not that impressed.
We’ve got to stop electing people from our emotional gut feelings.
John Cole
I have.
Right now, I think Dodd is the best candidate all around, AND happens to be personable.
Hubris
Granted, John was very tricky by hiding this…in the second sentence of the post.
Fwiffo
What’s up with that anyhow? Between her and Katie Holmes I really wonder what it is about these new-age leprechauns that just draws in the hotties.
ThymeZone
If he had meant us to notice it, he’d have bolded it.
Tsulagi
I know I wouldn’t. He hasn’t kept his loonies on a short enough leash. Ditto for Mohammed.
None of the people I’d like to choose from are running. If I had my choice, I’d go for Wesley Clark followed by Montana Gov. Brian Schweitzer. Could probably go for Jim Webb too, but he’s starting to piss me off.
mark
I’d really like to see the evidence of this that has caused you to have this opinion. Is it the haircut story?
John Cole
Woah. I need evidence for my perceptions and gut feelings?
Are you the Confederate Yankee?
Rex
I can’t believe that Ron Paul is not on your list. I want him to go as far as possible because he is the only guy out there with the balls to force the really difficult questions.
zmulls
I was looking forward to Clark this time around, and got tired of waiting. One candidate I was *not* looking forward to seeing was Edwards.
But Edwards came out strong with starting his campaign working for a day or two down in New Orleans. His “Two America’s theme — the notion that the games is currently rigged towards the haves so they can have more — has always resonated with me. And he’s impressed me time and again with stepping forward (attacking the “War on Terror” as a hurtful fallacy, calling FOX news out and ruining that debate, trying to focus on poverty when the media doesn’t want to hear it) when others have been pussyfooting around.
While I don’t need so much coverage of Elizabeth Edwards, I think it’s obvious she’s a special person, and anyone married to her has got to have something going on more than good looks.
He impresses me as tough and ruthless when he needs to be. Which I want in a President.
I’ve seen him on CSPAN on a stage just taking questions from an audience, and he’s focused and articulate and very, very smart.
So, I’ve been converted over the months. I don’t buy the phony attacks on him. And I think his focus on poverty and the gap between rich and poor is sincerely held. I don’t think he’s saying all these things to get the “netroots”‘ support — that’s backwards — he’s earning the netroots support because of what he’s been supporting.
I think you should give Edwards a second look, and try to look at him past the media filters. The mainstream press seems to dislike him almost as much as they disliked Gore, and he’s not getting a fair hearing.
(And Obama and Clinton are not on my list, as they were unfairly denoted celebrity candidates — with all the glowing and fawning coverage — early.)
(And anyone who wants a fresh look at Biden should read the appropriate chapters of “What It Takes” — you’ll walk away with some serious respect for him)
ThymeZone
I think John Edwards should be ashamed of giving his wife cancer so he could use it as a fundraising device.
That is the one thing that would make me vote for Brownback, or Pat Robertson if he were running again, which I wish he would.
John Cole
I like Ron Paul on a lot of issues, but I don’t like him as a person so much. Which is kinda what this whole post was about.
Regardless, I think Dodd is a better candidate than Paul, even though I disagree with Dodd on a number of core issues. On the important issues of the day, to me, at least, Dodd has been consistently on the right side. And it is not easy for a Reagan kid to say that.
Tsulagi
The troops like Ron Paul too. He was #1 in contributions from military personnel for the second quarter.
HyperIon
thumpers….i will NOT vote for a thumper.
Andrew
They’re the candidates you like to not have a beer with.
Zifnab
You can’t vote for Budda. He’s too happy. Also, fat.
And Jesus has been in the White House for over six years now, or so I’ve been told. At the end of his term, the true believers will be raptured, and the rest of us will remain hell-bound among the heathens for 40 years of Democrat majority rule before the Earth is finally destroyed by God’ Wraith in the form of a great flood that we assure you has nothing to do with Global Warming.
Otto Man
Interesting post. I think I agree on some of the list, such as Dodd and Brownback and maybe even Huckabee. Biden loves to hear himself talk and talk and talk, while Kucinich has sincerity but reminds me too much of the elf in the Rudolph special who wanted to become a dentist.
I’ll defend Edwards, though. He can come off a little slick at times and pressed the son-of-a-mill-worker so much last time around that even he is making fun of it now. But he has, by far, the best, most concrete policy papers on poverty, health care, and a ton of other issues. He’s smart, sharp, willing to admit a mistake and not afraid to stick to a principle when it matters.
The GOP and the Heathers in the national media are focusing on his hair and all that other bullshit because he has actual smarts and substance.
John S.
Like someone else mentioned upthread, I was waiting for Clark, but got tired of waiting. I don’t think he has any chance of attaining the highest office in the land anytime in the future, but hopefully someone will be smart enough to put him in their cabinet.
I really wanted him to win the nomination in ’04, because he would have fucking steamrolled Georgie.
John S.
You’re referring to Chinese Buddha.
Thai Buddha is rather slim and generally less cheerful looking. Therefore, he is entirely electable.
mark
No, not at all. I’m just curious what it was that led you to your position? There has been a lot of negative stories about Edwards in the press that aren’t based in reality and was just wondering if the cumulative effect of this narrative is starting to influence people in ways they can’t quite put their finger on
The Other Steve
I’m actually surprised Huckabee isn’t doing better. Totally surprised Rudy and Romney are on top, considering how obvioulsy insane they are.
Oh wait. GOP is the party of mentally insane, so they’re just representing the base.
Cyrus
Argh. Am I the only person who’s bored with this? Not to be an asshole, but that joke was funny six months ago. She’s good-looking, we get it. A famous, mid-to-high-level politician who attracts attractive women: not news, even if he is not a chiseled hardbody himself. Jeri Ryan, anyone?
Talking about Elizabeth Harper Kucinich and new-age leprechauns is the left-wing equivalent of talking about Jeri Kehn Thompson and Aqua Velva. Think about that for a second.
The Other Steve
It’s not the stories. It’s his totally phoniness. The reaosn the stories came out is because he’s such an easy target and because he’s a phoney he doesn’t know how to respond.
He’s an actor, and he’s playing a role. Just like an attorney would play the emotions of a jury. What I don’t understand is why he wants to be President. What’s the motivation behind his ambition. It’s obviously not because he wants to have the power to change things. His Senate record doesn’t represent that.
Sorry if that’s harsh. Hearing John Edwards speak though gives me that same gut wrenching feeling I get listening to GW Bush.
jenniebee
LOL, Edwards is the one I like best this cycle. He’s put actual policy suggestions forward. Not the vague kind, he’s put the devilish details down, and he was the first of the Dem candidates to do so. He’s been honest about what he’s proposing, too – he hasn’t put out a bunch of numbers that don’t add up to what he’s saying they do. To my mind, that’s honesty.
That “say or do anything to get elected” thing you got there without so much as a passing unsubstantiated assertion to support it sounds an awful lot to me like residual Kool-Aid.
Jill
I’d rather not hear about John’s gut feelings or impressions. They are usually wrong. Proof? GWB and the Iraq war.
mrmobi
I said earlier:
I was referring to the comment Obama made regarding use of nuclear weapons against Islamic countries. He said, “that is off the table.”
I think Clinton scored points with militaristic idiots by saying “nothing should be off the table,” but she’s wrong.
Absent an un-provoked nuclear attack, there is no way this country could, or should, be involved in a first-use of nuclear weapons against any country at all. We’ve used nuclear weapons twice in anger. I hope it never happens again. I’m proud of Obama for saying what he did, even if it did cost him some points.
Nuclear terror from the air is not my idea of an honorable endeavour, nor is it war, IMHO. It’s mass murder. Something important to remember on this Hiroshima day anniversary.
cleek
just the opposite with me.
i don’t agree with him on many issues at all, but he’s the only Republican candidate who’s not pandering and demagoguing with every single word he utters. from what i’ve heard from him, he seems principled, which is an odd thing to see in a politician.
ThymeZone
Other than your personal opinion, do you have anything to support this assertion?
Can you give us a relative phoniness metric for all the candidates so that we know what you mean here?
Thanks.
g-rant
mrmobi says:
Whaaatttt? I really don’t get this. Saying you’re not going to nuke countries is getting your ass kicked?
over_educated
At this point I do not care if our next President is as fake as Kang in a Bob Dole suit, so long as he or she is even marginally competant it will be a vast improvement over the current state of affairs.
Jack Bauer
I too think he’s a phony – he tries to act like me! Next year he’ll probably be after my role!
Romney’s 24 Hours Trailer
ThymeZone
Apparently you haven’t seen the cool lightning bolt that Hildebeast clutches in her velvet-gloved hand?
Sock Puppet of the Great Satan
“I live in Chapel Hill and would be volunteering all of the time if Obama was based here. I mean, it would mainly be to meet chicks,”
Err, why? I thought the running joke at UNC-CH, because of the excess of female students over male, was that the difference between a woman studying at UNC-CH and a garbage can was that the garbage can got taken out once a week.
“She’s good-looking, we get it. A famous, mid-to-high-level politician who attracts attractive women”
OK, Jeri Ryan’s ex had movie-star looks, and was close to her in age. Kucinich is twice his wife’s age, and to call him plain-looking is an understatement. Also, Kucinich’s squeeze is, well, more natural-looking than the usual trophies (number 2.0 or 3.0) that male politicians pick up. Further, most trophies tack ’emselves onto someone on the up and up. I think we can all agree Kucinich ain’t gonna even get into the Senate. So it is a bit of a different match than, say, Fred Thompson’s.
HyperIon
battle of the thumpers!
mark
phoniness about what exactly? That’s what my questions are trying to get at. What specific action(s) is it that has led you to the opinion he’s a phony? Is it his campaigning on “Two America’s” while actually being well off? Was it something you actually saw him say or do (in it’s complete context) or it is just from reports in the media?
HyperIon
better link maybe for the thumper battle
i don’t understand about the login stuff…
ThymeZone
Yes, you live in a country where being rich and basically having a the attitude “fuck the poor people” is not only okay, it’s considered admirable.
But if you are rich and you say, “Help the poor people,” you are a phony.
Because, you know, rich people don’t care about poor people, that’s why they are rich. That’s how they GOT rich.
By fucking over the poor people. Poor people can go fuck themselves, what have they ever done for this country anyway? I’m sure you can see the logic of my thinking.
Andrew
Yes, well, it was mostly a joke.
However, I am old enough to immediately scare away any and all undergraduates.
And let me tell you that while certain departments have a rather outstanding surplus of females, my geekiest of geek departments does not.
Plus, I have some great lines that I like to use on the ultra-liberals around here. I pretend to be hyper-libertarian and always get into amusing arguments.
“I’m all for abortion, as long as the poor mother is allowed to legally prostitute herself in order to pay for it. And pays tolls on the private roads on the way to the abortionist.”
Warren Terra
Maybe I missed it – I admit to skimming the thread – but what does John Cole have against Obama? I rather thought he seems to have a lot of decency and sincerity.
Although, are decency and sincerity really the point? Ron Paul has oodles of both, and I admire him on the war; but on many other policy points I think the man is certifiable. I’d rather have a total phony who works hard for my policy positions. Lyndon Johnson on civil rights and aid to the poor comes to mind. Although my understanding from what I’ve heard about the Johnson tapes is that Johnson’s phoniness was a major contributing factor in his inability to avoid repeatedly escalating our country’s involvement in Vietnam.
zmulls
Candidate A is poor and advocates for the poor: “I wouldn’t vote for A — what’s he ever done in his life? If he were smart he would have made some money by now — pulled himself up by his bootstraps, the American way. You think that guy can run a country, let alone the US Treasury? Loser.”
Candidate B was poor, and became rich by pulling himself up by his bootstraps, and now advocates for the poor: “Who does he think he’s fooling, with his big house and expensive haircut? What a phony. Look at him imitating Bobby Kennedy. Who cares about poverty anyway.”
Candidate C was born rich, is rich, and advocates for the rich: “Wow. I’d like to have a beer with that guy.”
John Cole
Believe it or not, but I forgot about Obama completely.
mrmobi
Actually, I loved the part about Obama saying nukes were “off the table.” But I thought Clinton made a fair point about not undermining Musharaff. When Clinton said “everything is one the table,” she was pandering, but I think it worked for her. Maybe not an ass kicking, but Obama opened himself up to the criticism with his terrorism speach last week.
Overall, I think Obama is running a great campaign, and it’s very early, but I don’t see how he will overcome her advantages in experience, and in having the Clenis as an advisor.
ThymeZone
What zmulls said.
Punchy
Is it BYOV at a Libertarian abortion clinic?
Zifnab
You’ll only support as much abortion as the market can bear?
Zifnab
Obama draws bigger crowds. And with the ridiculously lack-luster Republican line-up, I can see alot of Independents lining up to register Democrat just so they can vote against Hillary.
Because, lets face it, we’ll have our President picked long before Nov. 8th ’08.
RSA
I think most people count sheep.
And for Andrew. . .
Computer science or physics? Or something I’m not thinking of?
Andrew
CS. Motto: “Girls are icky!111 Let’s go play Quake!”
Andrew
I figure that fetuses are a commodity these days. Perhaps we can use them as some sort of fuel or a deep-fried appetizer.
ThymeZone
So, I just listened to John Edward do his “two uniterrupted minutes” with Lou Dobbs, speaking on trade and taxation and specifically how he would help the American middle class.
What I heard was articulate, clear, organized, and apparently fact-based discussion of policy.
It was a refreshing change from the “Vote for me because I love Jesus and I never met a zygote that didn’t deserve God’s love, but I hate terrorists and I will kill them before they kill you.”
So, can somebody fill me in ….. where does this “phoniness” thing come from? Fact? Arguments? Anything?
It sounds like a cricket preserve in here.
John S.
That’s why I hate all those robber baron philanthropists of yore.
Rockefeller, Carnegie, Vanderbilt…all those bastards and their multi-million dollar foundations that have been churning out money for decades can all just go to hell!
Oh yeah, and Bill Gates and his billion dollar foundation can go fuck themselves, too. Damn phonies, the lot of them.
John Cole
It’s a perception. You can not control why you have it- you just do. That doesn’t mean you can not get over that perception and vote for the guy anyway, especially if he is facing some retard like Bronwback (and looking at the GOP field, it is a virtual certainty the D will be facing a retard).
On the other hand, if you keep haranguing me because your feelings about Edwards are different than mine, I may state publicly I am going to vote against him just to watch your reaction.
As I have stated before, cruelty and insensitivity is the new direction for this blog. Regardless, I still think Dodd is better.
Media Glutton
John, I have felt in the past they way you do about John Edwards. He does seem slick, and it does seem very easy for him to attack others for positions he himself used to hold. However, two things stick in my mind about him.
I had a brilliant English professor at college, who was insightful, funny, and it was an American Lit. class so he often discussed politics. He also was the help-writer for John Edwards’ 2003 campaign book, “Four Trials.” He spoke very highly of Edwards, saying he was as normal a guy as you could get and that, while he may seem “politician-y” on the campaign trail, he was actually a real good guy. And I trust this professor.
Secondly, Elizabeth Edwards has posted many times on DailyKos and they have been well-written, engaging and often very passionate. I mean, for someone to pick an honest and intelligent person like that as their wife must have some good traits, right?
John Cole
Actually, now that I think about it, Rick Sanchez (CNN anchor) was making fun of Edwards last night for celebrating his anniversary at Wendy’s as some sort of stunt. It pissed me off, because I remember the same damn accusations of it being a stunt 4 years ago.
Otto Man
The “Edwards is a phony” theme is the latest from the same hacks who brought you “Al Gore is a serial exaggerator” and “John Kerry is a flip flopper.”
It’s the sort of lazy political commentary that gave us such an authentic, straight-shooting Texan like George W. Bush. Without their phoning it in, we might have wound up with a lying bastard from Andover, Yale and Harvard.
Geoduck
If your feelings are pushing you against Edwards, if you get a subliminal “ick” factor off him, fine. But that’s not what you originally said, and may be why people are harping on this: “he is fake and and will say anything.” Again, offer some proof to back this up, or change it to “he gives me the constant impression of being fake and willing to say anything to get elected.”
And for the record, I like Edwards the best out of the Dems who has a realistic shot of being elected. To start with, I think he’s the only one who will make any kind of genuine effort to get us out of Iraq. And as someone noted, anyone the Beltway presscorpse (sic) hates so much must be doing something right..
ThymeZone
Wow, it must be summetime and you are just full of it today?
I haven’t expressed any “feelings” about Edwards, have I?
I stated what I heard about an hour ago on tv. Some facts, some policy discussion. Feelings? FEELINGS?
You have FEELINGS about these things?
That’s just fucking gay. Sorry, not that there’s anything wrong with that, but it’s gay.
Watch my reaction you say? I think you have this all backwards, amigo. We are here to take the measure of your reaction. We will perform the experiments around here.
Your “feelings” and Chertoff’s “gut” are all we get to take away from this summer? This is a ripoff.
Perry Como
Edwards is such a phony him and his wife have been pulling this same stunt for 30 years. Talk about out of touch.
ThymeZone
j/k John.
But in all semi-seriousness, I have a feeling … that Edwards inspires some people to dislike him because he is just pretty. The man is pretty. I myself am quite beautiful, so I can relate to this. But this is neither here nor there. Or anywhere.
Edwards is just a pretty man. If he looked like Dennis Kucinich you folks would think he was kicking ass and taking names. Edwards is so damned pretty, I’d probably pick him over Kucinich’s wife.
For president, I mean.
zmulls
I appreciate that Thymezone and I are arguing the same point but I hope we can do it leaning to invective. I certainly understand getting hot under the collar when hearing someone we are coming to admire get accused of phoniness (calls our own judgement into question, don’t ya know?)
Look, I fell for the Gore attacks in 2000. I caught myself saying “Ahhh…he’s a phony. Doesn’t know who he is. Will say anything to get elected. Mr. Smarty-britches. Exaggerates his resume. Etc.”
Fell for it hook line and sinker. And spent a long time reading the Daily Howler archives. Somerby can be insufferable, certainly, but he details every damn Gore story — what the original GOP press release said, what the verifiable facts were, how the press reported it, how the press copied down the GOP narrative…..over and over and over again. Made me sick. I was wrong — I got took.
And I saw it again in 2004 — I saw it in action. Flip-flopper, indecisive, out-of-touch, phony, etc. Then the swift-boaters. It was worse watching it happen.
I’m seeing it again with Edwards. I’ll repeat what I said earlier — I had no intention of supporting Edwards this time around, I wished he would just go away. I was tired of him.
But I’ve tried hard to listen without the snarky media filter. I like what I hear. I like his wife (and he must be a halfway decent guy to be married to her). I like his biography. I like his message — I think he believes his message. I think he’s tough as nails, which is why Rush and his cohorts are doing the “Breck Girl” thing.
All the other candidates seem like they’re in search of a reason to run. Edwards is the one setting the tone — he came forward with an unpopular theme and is slowly and insistently pushing it forward. Nobody wanted to hear “Two Americas” or “Poverty” but like a true leader, he’s persuading people and bring people his way.
He’s convincing me. It’s not over yet, but I’m not sold on Obama or Clinton, and I don’t see the other guys making much of a move yet. I’ll vote for Gore if he gets in, but even if Clark got in now, I think I’d still lean to Edwards (though I dream of an Edwards/Clark ticket….or Edwards/Zinni….though the pressure to pick Obama will be fierce)
So I hope you’ll be able to take a step back and give him a fresh look — listen straight on without putting the media-generated “he’s a phony” glasses on for a bit. He’s getting a raw deal, coverage-wise, and he’s still breaking through. I think he’s it, so far.
zmulls
(Ah, didn’t realize ThymeZone was j/k….sorry…)
John S.
Rick Sanchez is a tool. He used to be on WSVN 7 News here in South Florida, which was literally the first tabloid “news” I remember seeing on TV. Sanchez was involved in a scandal here before leaving the area, and somehow CNN picked the douchebag up. I still can’t figure that one out.
Odd story – in my youth (circa 1994), I was attending a rave in South Beach at some nightclub and I friend and I exited for some fresh air around 4am. There was a guy standing ion the middle of the street outside the club stripping off his clothes and screaming “Fuck Rick Sanchez, I’m not with this scene!” The police showed up in response to a fight that broke out inside, and upon seeing this character, kindly escorted him away (he was naked at the time and still screaming about Rick Sanchez). It was truly one of the strangest things I have seen.
Anyway, I wouldn’t take anything Rick Sanchez has to say too seriously.
ThymeZone
I was joking about John being gay. John being gay is not a laughing matter, whether it’s true or not. And I’m not saying that it is, or that there is anything wrong with that.
On the Edwards thing, we have to take this with a large grain of kosher sea salt, from the kosher sea. The whole thread is basically tongue in cheek, which again, is gay if you look at it a certain way, and I’m not saying that I am, but hell …
Edwards is just gorgeous. Goddam, help me Jesus, the man is gorgeous.
But in a serious moment, let me say, I like Edwards as a candidate. I can’t see or hear anything phony in his positions or policy statements.
MNPundit
I am terrified of Huckabee. Still am though less since he has no traction. When he went on the Daily Show he seemed to be the one Republican that could sell the disastrous reactionary theocratic corporate republican policies with a smile.
ThymeZone
Totally agree. The guy got rich by being tough enough to flay high-paid corporate lawyers in a courtroom. And by that I mean, peel their skin off and barbecue it into cracklins right in front of a judge and jury.
Try that next time you are having an attack of “I am too sexy for my keyboard.”
Shochu John
I share John’s dislike for Edwards, also think he’s a phony, and CAN put my finger on why. Remember back in 2004. There was a presidential election, and a whole bunch of people ran for the Democratic nomination, including Edwards. Some of them talked about the war and how they were for it (Lieberman, Gephardt), and some talked bout how they were against it (Dean, Kucinich). You know who didn’t talk about it much at all? Edwards. Instead it was son of a millworker and two Americas. While poverty is an important issue, the single most critical issue facing our country was the Iraq war. Edwards couldn’t be bothered to take a position on it. Why? The public opinion split was 50/50 and he didn’t know which direction to play it. Now it’s clearly against and he knows exactly how to play it, which is to hit hard at the anti-war base and hope they all forget about 2004.
It’s one thing to have been wrong on the war as a matter of good faith mistake. It’s another thing to treat it as purely a political consideration, which I think Edwards did.
I have regarded him as a hollow suit ever since 2004, before the media narrative started. In the instant case, the media narrative has it right.
ThymeZone
John Edwards, October 2004, in an exchange with Dick Cheney.
Edwards, 2006.
Phony? Blog posters who think they are superior to a decent guy like John Edwards, and base it on the phony bullshit seen in a recent post here.
Andrew
Well, if the politics thing doesn’t work out, the two of you can head to South Florida and have Republicans pay to give you blow jobs.
ThymeZone
Edwards, October 2004, to Dick Cheney.
ThymeZone
And pay dearly, too.
ImJohnGalt
Well, my wife wanted me to tell you that you’re an idiot, John.
She grew up in the same neighbourhood as Edwards and his wife, knows them both fairly well and says that they’re both fantastic, principled people – not fake or “willing to say anything”. She says she cringes at his accent (and she’s a preacher’s kid from NC, so that’s saying something), and that it’s a rare politician who can pull off not sounding like a politician (he can’t), but she thinks he’d be a great president.
Like “Media Glutton”‘s English Lit Prof, she’s fairly effusive about the man, and she dated George Clooney, so she’s not hypnotized by his looks.
Feel free to call her an idiot back, though, as the blog is all about nastiness now.
But dear God, he *is* beautiful. Were I to ever see him do “Blue Steel”, I swear I’d die.
zmulls
“It’s one thing to have been wrong on the war as a matter of good faith mistake. It’s another thing to treat it as purely a political consideration, which I think Edwards did.”
That was one of a number of things I had against him. He wasn’t the only one to make that mistake. I understood the political calculus (and sometimes there has to be a political calculus) but was very disappointed in him and Clinton and Kerry et. al.
But Edwards was the first one to say “I was wrong — I regret my vote” and he did it long before it was fashionable. I gave him some credit for that and gave him a little space to see what else he had to say.
Nobody’s going to be perfect. I appreciate that he said something that very, very few “politicians” have the guts to say these days — ever hear Hilary Clinton say “I was wrong” flat out, without equivocating?
Again, it’s a Catch-22. If he were an unpolished orator, he’d be criticized for not being able to speak or persuade — the fact is that he has some rhetorical chops, and that’s a plus.
Pug
When Iraq splits into three parts remember that Biden was telling you that would happen for years.
I’m not sure when Biden began talking about Iraq splitting into three autonomous regions, but I first saw it suggested in Peter Galbraith’s book, “The End of Iraq”. I don’t know if Biden owes attribution to Galbraith or not. Galbraith is a former diplomat and well connected in Iraq. In other words, he knows what he’s talking about as opposed to Bill Kristol or those in the Bush administration.
As for Edwards, he’s my guy. I am also the son of a mill worker, though in California, not North Carolina. I went to the state university, just like John, and ended up with a professional job. And (since no one will ever see me) I can honestly say I am even prettier than he. Really.
Shochu John
Thyme, you seem to be taking this rather personally. Do you work for Edwards or something?
“John Edwards, October 2004, in an exchange with Dick Cheney.”
You may have noticed that my criticism at Edwards not really taking a position on the war was based on his performance in the Democratic primary, when he was speaking on behalf of his own candidacy, not as second fiddle on the Kerry/Edwards campaign. In any case, what you quote here is criticism about the edges of Bush’s conduct of the war rather than any particular stance on the war itself. For Edwards being even more mealy-mouthed on the war, I cite to you the January 22, 2004 Democratic Presidential Debate. Edwards on voting against the $87 billion Iraq supplement:
“EDWARDS: Because I said from the very beginning, before the first resolution was ever voted on in the Congress, that in order for this effort to be successful it was absolutely critical that when we reached this stage that it be international, that it not be an American operation, that it not be an American occupation. And so long as it was that, we’d see the problems we’ve seen right now.
Everyone on this stage has been critical of the way George Bush has conducted this phase of the operation. But at the point where we had to stand up and say yes or no, we had to stand up and vote and support that vote, I thought it would be a mistake for me to say to the president, “What you’re doing is right, I support it, go forward, here’s your blank check, come back next year and ask for more money.”
He needed to change course. We needed to have the United Nations in charge of the civilian authority. We needed NATO present to help provide security there, at least along the Saudi Arabian and the Iranian border so we could concentrate on the Sunni triangle. ”
This is more classic criticism about the edges, and not even realistic cricism. By 2004, the coalition of the willing was well unravelling and nobody wanted to join in Iraq. The notion that (1) we could get any more nations to kick in troops and (2) that would make a difference was so ridiculous and ill thought out that I hope he was saying it purely for political reasons, because it does little other than sound nice to the uninformed. And here’s the main point, this sort of pie in the sky non-solution is a great way to avoid actually taking any responsibility for the hard choices that the war involves, that his initial vote made neccessary. Let me further add that even this absurd meditation on the issue was only brought on by direct questioning. When making speeches in 2004, Edwards rarely mentioned Iraq at all. The most important issue of our time and it was not a matter of just being wrong, but he couldn’t be bothered to take an actual position on it.
“I never should have voted for this war.” Edwards, 2006.
Exactly. And now he’s adamantly against it. His views tracked the polls almost precisely from 2002 to the present, with hardly an ounce of serious thought present. That’s why I think he’s phony.
“Phony? Blog posters who think they are superior to a decent guy like John Edwards, and base it on the phony bullshit seen in a recent post here.”
If I were in the Senate instead of Edwards, there would have been one less vote authorizing the war. Does that make me superior? It depends on how much you think that tens of thousands dead and America’s biggest strategic disaster in at least thirty years is worth. Frankly I think a “yes” vote on the Iraq war should be a permanent electorate-enforced diqualifier to holding public office ever again. Some screw-ups are just too big for second chances. However, if you’re going to be wrong, at least have the courage to take a real position.
Shochu John
Addendum to the previous post, here is where the transcript of the debate I quoted can be found:
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/primdeb/deb012204tr.html
And one response to zmulls, who writes:
“Nobody’s going to be perfect. I appreciate that he said something that very, very few “politicians” have the guts to say these days—ever hear Hilary Clinton say “I was wrong” flat out, without equivocating?”
I see your point, but the flipside to that is that Edwards did the flat out, “I was wrong” at the precise moment where it would do the most political good. At this juncture, that vote can no longer be spun to the Democratic electorate as anything other than a flat out mistake. So, may as well call it as such and be very sorry for it.
A lot of people genuinely flipped on the Iraq war because they became convicned at its foolishness. Edwards’ various stances on the Iraq war, however, fit the public opinion curve just a little too well.
And your point about Hillary is well taken. I support Obama myself, even though I find some of his current foreign policy remarks a bit disconcerting. He has the twin qualifiacations of having been right on Iraq all along and having the best shot at defeating Hillary, who must be stopped at all costs.
Despite the fact that I think he’s a phony, if I thought that Edwards had the best shot at defeating both Hillary and the Republicans, I would support him in a heartbeat.
Hyperion
Media Glutton, i have to nitpick.
how does that follow?
good traits like writing proper English?
as his wife
remember–your brilliant prof might be reading this blog….
buzz
Brownback and his evolution beliefs are more analog than digital. Still wouldn’t vote for him, and he’s my senator. I liked the good old days when we had Dole and Kassebaum.
Rome Again
Joe Biden? Are you serious?
As someone from DE, who understands the corporate structure of DE (the banks incorporate there because of the tax breaks, most of your credit card payments go to Wilmington, DE), trust me, you DON’T want this man in office.
He sounds great on tv, but, he’s got the corporate banks in his pocket. No thanks!
Rome Again
Your perceptions caused you to vote for Bush twice, I’ll pass on your perceptions.
ThymeZone
Do you work for Hillary or something?
On the TZ Retort Scale, your blurb gets a -3 on the 1 – 10 meter.
A lot of people have changed their minds. John Cole being a good example. I give him props for it. I’d do the same for anyone who did.
ConservativelyLiberal
There is not a single repub I would support now. They all suck. On the dem side, I could go with Obama or even better, Gore. But if it is Shrillary, I will sit this one out. I really like Bill, but Hillary is not my cup of tea. Her public speaking is almost scripted to be ‘on message’, and I don’t like the message.
Right now, I am more like ‘Meh, who cares?’ on the choices available on both sides. None of them have really caught on with me yet. I wonder if they will.
I wish there was a candidate on either side that could get me excited, but this crop is pretty lackluster. To me anyway.
Shochu John
Thyme says
“Do you work for Hillary or something? On the TZ Retort Scale, your blurb gets a -3 on the 1 – 10 meter.”
Perhaps you would like my blurb better if you had read it. Quoth me, “Hillary, who must be stopped at all costs.”
michael
hmmm .. curious European here, watching all this from across the pond, and I have to say, for _years_ now I’m deeply confused: What exactly is it about Mrs. Clinton that such a lot of you folks over there find so appaling that “she must be stopped at all costs” and so forth? I’m not asking this because I disagree or something, I simply don’t know where it comes from and am curious .. the media over here are treating the coming US-election as a thing between Obama and Clinton, basically.
Mr Furious
Hillary Derangement Syndrome (or HDS) makesw Bush Derangement Syndrome look like a common cold. Blowhards on the Right (Rush, etc.) have had a thing about Hillary for ten-fifteen tears now. That’s really all there is to it.
mark
but the perceptions come from somewhere John. this point has been touched on upthread, but I believe it really is the constant media undercurrent of edwards being phony or gay or whatever that fuels these perceptions. As someone said previously, this is exactly like the Gore is a liar meme that dominated the airways during the 2000 campaign.
In order to vote for candidates based on the issues and their stance on the issues, rather than how much cleavage they show or whether or not they wear earth tones the corporate owned media must be gotten rid of and replaced with something like the free press the founders envisioned.
Bob In Pacifica
Despite my dispute with Amanda Marcotte of Pandagon over the Duke lacrosse case (she was wrong again), I am going along with Edwards for the time being. He actually talks about the social dislocation in the U.S., which positions him precisely against the institutional forces which are pushing our country into wars like in Iraq and Afghanistan (how’s that pipeline coming along?). That is, Edwards is stating the obvious which is why he is not going to be allowed to get anywhere near the White House.
As for who’s phony or not, it’s actually a funny question. Sort of like “What is reality?” Maybe if John Edwards had a scar on his pretty boy face, or his nose was crooked from a bar fight. I don’t think it’s all that fair that anyone who defends poor people has to wear a horsehair shirt, but that’s the standard in 2007. Of course, if he did wear a horsehair shirt he’d be sniped at for being out of fashion.
Hyperion
firesign theater reference?
John S.
I hope so, because this is exactly how Republicans win elections. Here’s the recipe:
1 part lackluster GOP candidate
1 part uninspiring Dem candidate
2 parts partisan electorate
Shake thoroughly until the Republican wins the election.
See, Republicans will come out and vote for the biggest piece of shit GOP candidate ever (see: George Bush) simply because he is a Republican. And somehow, the lackluster Democrat will inspire enough hatred in them to force them to come out in numbers to vote.
Conversely, Democrats will stay home and not vote for a mediocre Dem candidate because they won’t vote for him simply they are a Democrat. The lousy Republican will entice them to stay home because they figure nobody would be dumb enough to vote for such a piece of shit candidate, and turnout suffers.
So please don’t underestimate the willingness of others to vote for an idiot simply because of party affiliation. I would really hate to see 2004 happen all over again.
ThymeZone
Well, not knowing how much you know about the history here, let’s just say, these corridors are littered with spoof, and that comment can be taken several ways.
Speaking nonspoof for a moment, my own view on her is that I do not want her as the Dem candidate, and I do not really want her as president, however, I don’t think she can or should be stopped at all costs. Either by Dems, or by the general population in November of next year. I think she can win, but I’d be more comfortable with another candidate. And another president. Obama is my “feelings” favorite right now, Edwards is on my OK list but not at the top, Clark is preferable, to me, over either of those two, and if Al Gore runs, I will be ecstatic.
mrmobi
Jeebus, TZ, I think you might be my long-lost half brother! That’s as close to the way I feel right now as I could have said myself.
I saw some of Clark’s keynote at YearlyKos, and he was terrific as usual. Him I’d like to see as SecDef, as I don’t think he’s that polished a politician right now. But I really do like him.
ThymeZone
Could be. I do, seriously, have several long lost half brothers.
mrmobi
Well, there’s a presciption for a Republican victory if I’ve ever heard one.
What’s the old maxim, “all that’s necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”
So let me get this straight, after the past six-and-a-half years of complete fubar craptastic catastrofuck, you are ready to stay home if the Dems nominate Shrillary?
So which of the diminutive (and dim) Party of Torture candidates do you think would make the best King? Are you convinced that what we need is another, science-denying, reality-challenged mental midget in the White House?
Enlighten me.
mrmobi
I think your media basically have it right. It’s early, but many of the primaries have been moved to earlier dates. It’s quite possible we’ll have a presumptive winner after just three primaries, and it looks to me like that will be Clinton on the Dem side.
As far as the Clinton (Clagina) hatred, that’s mostly a by-product of extreme right-wing outrage that the Congress did not convict President Clinton (Clenis) for getting a blowjob from a consenting adult combined with a healthy dose of misogyny and gynophobia.
We like women here in America, but only if they don’t get uppity. One thing Mrs. Clinton has going for her, is that although we don’t like powerful women much, we like blacks even less.
ThymeZone
Her voice shatters glass. She doesn’t listen. Her spouse has already been president. We’re tired of the fucking Clintons and Bushes running the country. She voted for the war and tries to triangulate her position. She is smug.
I wouldn’t mind a Clinton woman in the White House, but it will be 25 years before Chelsea is old enough to do the job. Now SHE is somebody I would vote for. Classy, smart, charming. Did I say smart?
aliceandbob
According to one of my coworkers, who gets all of her political information from her racist, sexist, “gee I miss the 50s” father, Hillary’s a feminazi who thinks that women are superior beings. When asked to provide an example, the response was “She just is. It’s obvious.”
Personally, I think it’s the way she over-enunciates her words. It makes her sound snobby. Martha Stewart has the same problem, although in her case I think it’s to camouflage the fact that she’s from Joisey.
Why yes, Americans are shallow.
liberal
John S. wrote,
The funniest thing is the extent to which they’ll support “family values” men who are on their second or third marriage.
Media Glutton
Hyperion —
There is a long history of using “they” as a gender-neutral, third-person singular pronoun. So go sucketh an egg.