Maybe he will call it a quagmire, too:
As he awaits a crucial progress report on Iraq, President Bush will try to put a twist on comparisons of the war to Vietnam by invoking the historical lessons of that conflict to argue against pulling out.
President Bush pauses Tuesday during a news conference at the North American Leaders summit in Canada.
On Wednesday in Kansas City, Missouri, Bush will tell members of the Veterans of Foreign Wars that “then, as now, people argued that the real problem was America’s presence and that if we would just withdraw, the killing would end,” according to speech excerpts released Tuesday by the White House.
“Three decades later, there is a legitimate debate about how we got into the Vietnam War and how we left,” Bush will say.
“Whatever your position in that debate, one unmistakable legacy of Vietnam is that the price of America’s withdrawal was paid by millions of innocent citizens, whose agonies would add to our vocabulary new terms like ‘boat people,’ ‘re-education camps’ and ‘killing fields,’ ” the president will say.
This is going to kill the right wing bloggers who have spent thousands of hours explaining Iraq is not Viet Nam. At any rate, aren’t civilian casualties something we should have considered BEFORE we went to war?
We have nothing but bad choices in Iraq. We can stay, and we can watch the Iraq government diddle and do nothing while multiple factions and groups slowly murder and cleanse their way through Iraq. And even then, we are not going to be able to stay there permanently with the current force we have now, as the military is stretched to the breaking point. We can leave, and let them do the same thing, but faster. It is a bloody mess, there are no easy answers, and Bush trying to use the post Viet Nam disaster as a rhetorical strategy to convince us to stay in Iraq makes it clear he doesn’t have the answers, either. Essentially, the WH strategy is “If we leave, it might get worse.”
*** Update ***
The President is going to argue that after the US pulled out of Southeast Asia, millions of people died.
One more time. Millions of people died while we were there. A fair proportion of them were people we ourselves killed. In any reckoning of the costs of intervening and withdrawing from Indochina, those people count too. It’s a bizarre, narcissistic blind spot to imagine otherwise.
Which brings us to Iraq, per the President’s insistence. It is possible that if we leave, hundreds of thousands will die and millions be displaced. That has already happened under our government’s tender and expert care. There is no short-term prospect that it will stop happening. But I guess if you die while the US is around, you have the comfort of knowing we were trying.
Incertus (Brian)
If we leave, and it does get worse, it will be the first time the Bush White House has been right on anything involving Iraq.
Attaturk
The post-Vietnam disaster is also historically wrong as Bush is using it.
The Killing Fields happened in Cambodia because our misguided bombing campaign allowed a dipshit like Pol Pot to become popular (as the Cambodian government couldn’t stop the bombs from falling).
Then when the maniacs we indirectly caused to come into power, they received aid from the United States when they were invaded and their regime extinguished by YOU GUESSED IT, the Vietnamese government we’d been fighting for years.
We gave birth to Pol Pot and we tried to prop him up against the Vietnamese who ENDED the Killing Fields regime.
And now Bush wants to take our ignorance of history and try to use it to justify us staying in Iraq.
Let’s remember the actual argument used for keeping us in Vietnam in the 70s…to prevent Southeast Asia from going communist.
…30 years later, George W. Bush is the guest of honor at our new buddies…THE VIETNAMESE GOVERMENT.
The right was ALWAYS wrong about Vietnam, both before, during, and after the war … the dirty effing hippies were right all along…and the same has held true in Iraq.
Aziz Poonawalla
of course, that’s true.
I don’t have much use for Bush or Republicans anymore but we cant pretend that there arent moral consequences to withdrawal. Thats the sole thing that keeps me on teh fence about it. I’m not too worried though, because no democratic president will leave Iraq.
Jim Henley
As I wrote a couple weeks ago, millions of people died in Southeast Asia while we were there. Why is it only the ones who died after we left who count as a bad thing?
Halffasthero
At this point there are only bad choices and worse choices where Iraq is concerned. This is the Bush legacy. The army is going to be stretched way too thin as of this spring if I have read correctly and there is no government that is functional in Iraq. Now this brilliant man is rattling sabers in Iran. We are getting a huge dose of stupidity coming out of the WH right now and nothing and no one is stopping him. But there seems to be plenty of enablers.
God help us all.
Punchy
Literally.
John, any reason you keep referring to Vietnam as two words? Is that a military thing?
John Cole
Must be. That, or I am an idiot.
myiq2xu
Q: What do Vietnam and Iraq have in common?
A: Bush didn’t fight in either one.
Elvis Elvisberg
We should be handing out thousands of visas to Iraqis.
Andrew
Yes. This has been another edition…
Incertus (Brian)
We should be handing out thousands of visas to Iraqis.
Indeed. That we are not is yet another blight on this already blighted administration.
Jimmmmm
Iraq is NOT Vietnam. For one thing, Bush and Cheney both had a plan for getting out of Vietnam…
Shouldn’t the stop-loss argument be labeled, res ipsa loquitor, as Republican Stupidity? I mean, Ari Fleischer will be the point man for the advancement of this idea.
Punchy
Why, so they can ruin their credit scores, too?
Barry
John: “This is going to kill the right wing bloggers who have spent thousands of hours explaining Iraq is not Viet Nam.”
Only those with consciences, so I expect the casualties there to be rather light………..
Jimmmmm
If Bush is one for taking the long view of history, who’s to say that, in 30 or so years, the Gap will be manufacturing their space-age boxer shorts at factories in the Republic of Kurdistan, or the People’s Islamic Republic of Mesopotamia, too? Hell, my Vespa parts come from a Canadian named Randall who set up shop in HCM City, and distrubutes his parts in the US through a facility in California. I think it’s safe to say that anybody who 35 years ago bet “Vietnam joins the industrialized world and breeds a generation of consumers whose kids want to be like Americans” and the under, probably made a bundle.
Advocating the long-term view perspective AND using Vietnam as an example? Notsobright, W.
Jason
So basically, get ready for: “Lib’ruls made us play nice with our nukes and didn’t let us kill enuf civilians! Die civilians die! errr..wait, there’s a new memo? Oh…wait…I mean, Lib’ruls are gonna cause civilians to die! live civilians live!”
Watch how a followup lancet study will be welcomed by greater wingnuttia as proof that liberal policies kill hundreds of thousands, unlike that stupid original Lancet that proved nothing.
Halffasthero
I did not have enough coffee to understand that one right away.
And ther is no way that visas will be handed out to Iraqis under Bush. The security issues are going to be the claim. Which is not necessarily invalid under the circumstances as I am guessing they will be rather po’d when they get done going through customs.
John S.
A few little qualifiers and some cherry picking, and the whole thing will work out fine…
“Of course, I’ve argued at length that Iraq is not Vietnam. But that is only a one-dimensional (and liberal) view of the situation. As the president correctly pointed out, in the sense that our withdrawl will have consequences, Iraq is exactly like Vietnam. However, in the sense that it is an unwinnable war that has turned into a quagmire, there is absolutely no comparison, and my original argument stands.”
See how easy that is?
The Other Steve
Bunch of fucking fear mongering.
The Other Steve
Wait. You think maybe they could make parts for my Aprilia Scarabeo over in Kurdistan? That would be nice, as the Italian suppliers are not all that reliable.
BIRDZILLA
We lost vietnam becuase of lying left-wing journalists like walley kronkite
jnfr
I was convinced that staying in Iraq is pointless by General Odom, from his op-ed in the Washington Post earlier this year:
And here is his full analysis of the situation there. It’s titled Strategic Errors of Monumental Proportions, and sadly that’s not hyperbole.
Otto Man
Look, we all remember what happened after we pulled out of Vietnam.
Just like the conservatives predicted, the communist dominos started falling all over Southeast Asia, with even Australia and New Zealand falling to the Red Menace. And then the Vietnamese terrorists followed us home and started bombing our cities on the homeland.
Anyone who says different is a queer liberal book reader.
Cassidy
Why? Wouldn’t it be better if Iraqis stayed in their own country and actually helped make it successful?
Zifnab
When you think about it, wasn’t 9/11 really all because our liberal commie traitor Congress surrendered to the Gooks?
Zifnab
/me hands Cassidy a toilet.
Crap goes in hear.
mrmobi
While I generally bow to your wisdom, Bird-thing, I’m afraid you have hit a sore point.
If you are referring to the great Walter Cronkite and not some kind of fish, I must protest. Uncle Walter was with us through some very difficult times, and he always told it like he saw it. We were lucky to have him.
You wouldn’t understand that, because you are an avian-zilla thing, not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Cassidy
Oh…so expecting people to be proactive and take responsibility in thier own community is crap? That’s new to me.
So what do you propose to do with these Iraqis? Are you willing to make an allotment from your paycheck to cover the inevitable burdens on the welfare state? also, how does this fit in with the Universal Healthcare meme? All I hear is the wailing of “children with no healthcare”, so do you propose they go even longer without comprehensive medical coverage? And what will be your selection criteria for the visas? You all have said “thousands”, yet I’m sure there are millions of Iraqis who’d want to come over. So who gets to choose? How are you going to determine who is not good enough to come here?
Pb
Amen. Iraq is already #2 on the failed states index (up from being #4 two years running) — second only to Sudan.
Zifnab
/me hands Cassidy a bridge.
Trolls go under here.
Cassidy
Thanks Zifnab for that intelligent commentary. I’m so glad that you actually have a plan. As we all know, lofty rhetoric is simply not good enough for the real world and the bastion of the lazy thinker.
Pb
That would be a good argument for handing out visas to Iraqis.
Well, let’s see–how much is coming out of my paycheck to cover Iraq already? Instead, we could issue 200 visas a day, give them each a million dollars, and still come out ahead. So yeah, I think we can handle it.
Cassidy
So, does anyone have anything to offer re: handing out thousands of visas, other than some angry, knee-jerk rhetoric. Assuming that a policy was enacted to hand out “thousands” of visas (not millions, because only thousands are good enough to get them) how do you seriously propose to balance that with the number of social programs being called for, the burden to be placed on individual communities welfare programs, the inevitable cultural conflicts (as evidenced by Europe’s issues with muslim immigrants), and security issues?
Grand ideas are nice and make you feel good to say them, but without any kind of detailed thought, they are largely useless.
Zifnab
Right back at ya, chief.
Zifnab
John Edward overview of plan to end American poverty by 2036
Barak Obama detailed healthcare proposal
Bill Richardson’s Plan for Clean Energy
Hillary Clinton’s plan to withdraw from Iraq
I found these in about two minutes on Google. Read up and enjoy Cassidy. When you are finished, I want a full 10 page report, single spaced, sited, and fact checked on my desk by next Wednesday, on what you think of these proposals, why you support or decry them, and if you decry them what your counterproposal would be.
Zifnab
Gak. Once Tim or John approve that multi-link post, Cassidy can feel free to read it and respond. Unfortunately, this website does not favor the cited-by-link heavy responses.
Cassidy
Why don’t you answer my actual question. Nice dodge, btw. Would hate for you to have to back up your ideas with plans.
I’ll recap for you so you won’t miss it (again).
Proposal: hand out thousands of visas to Iraqis
Question:
Stay with me Zifnab. Changing the subject is rude. Unless you want to just admit your idea is nothing more than a knee-jerk proposal with no actual substance.
Teak111
Well, we see what happens when Karl isn’t round to hellp boy wonder with his speeches. Iraq and Vietnam should never be mentioned in the same sentence such less the same speech…to Veterans no less. Also understand that the Iraq report from Gen P. has been rescheduled for 911. That is just wrong. Maybe Rove should stick around til the end if only to get us through the next 18 months with the country intact, more or less.
Cassidy
And your links don’t prove or disporve anything I’ve said. Any idiot with a sign can have grand ideas, but without a plan of implementation they are useless. So, even without reading the links, I can honestly say that whether I agree or not is immaterial. They either have a real plan to implement their ideas, or they don’t.
whippoorwill
Mr. Bush is a desperate man and desperate men who are also arrogant and deluded are dangerous men. And today we have one such individual in command of the most fearsome military in history. Now THAT’S fear mongering!
Rula Lenska
Let St McCain round up some followers who want to “stay”
in Iraq. After all, he chose to stay extra long in Viet Nam.
Zifnab
That’s great Cassidy. Except those links were each to detailed, point by point, fully-implementable plans. Each of the top-tier Democratic Candidates has a full outline of his or her pet issues. Had Bush invaded Iraq with such forethought, we wouldn’t be in this mess.
But your argument seems to be “If you can’t answer my niche question re: How should we had out visas to Iraqi refugees, you don’t really have a plan. If you don’t have any plans for my niche question, you don’t have plans for anything. Ergo, all Democrats are without any plan and just really on wearing tie-dye t-shirts and waving IMPEACH BUSH cardboard signs.”
I’ve presented four detailed, in-depth plans on how to address poverty, universal health care, the loaming energy crisis, and the Iraq War, respectively. Your response has been the predictable “But you don’t really have a plan”. Classic Republican denialist talking points.
/me hands Cassidy a bucket and a bridge.
Troll-shit is disgusting. Please take it somewhere else.
Dreggas
I know your a mental midget who has probably never served in the military or was even drafted for that matter so I will make this simple.
A war cannot be won if you are fighting to hold a line. This is why, technically, we are still at war with North Korea (we have a truce not a peace treaty). The same went for Vietnam. We fought to keep communists from crossing some imaginary line, most likely trying to achieve a similar situation to what we had done in NK. Of course we underestimated the popular support the NV had in the south because we weren’t fighting to uphold a democracy but rather a really shitty nepotistic aristocracy that emerged in the south after the french beat feet (and remember they were there fighting first because, after all, it was pretty much a vietnamese revolution under the banner of communism).
Like I said it’s hard for someone with a very small amount of brain tissue to understand but maybe, just maybe, as with muscle growth exercising it will make it grow a bit.
Cassidy
Zifnab, you’ve made a lot of assumptions. The plans, you’ve linked to (and I’m currently reading) have nothing to do with the topic at hand, which is: How do you propose to implement that handing out of thousands of visas to Iraqis? I’m not talking about the POTUS candidates. I’m not talking about poverty or clean energy. I’m asking you to back up your knee-jerk rhetoric with something more substantial than utopian fantasies.
I’ve made no such statments about Democrats or their proposed policies. I’m specifically asking you to answer my question. I’m sure the Dem candidates have plenty of plans, some good, some bad. Maybe some are realistically feasible. Time will tell. But that doesn’t change reality. You can stomp your feat and beat your breast all you like with moral outrage, but unless you actually have a plan to implement change, then you are wasting oxygen.
Pb
Here’s a plan: we offer Iraqis US citizenship in exchange for serving in our military. Then we give them training and weapons, and have them fighting for us, and… oh wait, that part didn’t work out so well? Never mind.
rachel
Cassidy’s tone reminds me of the simple pleasure that a man who has just thrown a log into a fire might take in watching the ants on it–those lesser beings–being burned alive. But lets face it: now that war, anarchy and feudalism have been unleashed in Iraq; his work there is done.
Cassidy
I’m still waiting. The rhetoric says hand out visas. So how are you going to make it happen?
I did nothing of the sort. But, as long as there are American troops who require trauma managment on the battlefield, my work is not done.
mrmobi
That link to General Odom is excellent. Thanks, jnfr. I’ve read his op-ed piece and his interview with Hugh Hewitt, but this is from his statement to the Senate Foreign Relations committee. He points out that our most successful counter-insurgency efforts have been the ones which involved the least financial support:
He then point out how important it is to establish a tax base:
Emphasis mine.
Here is what he says about the ISG:
And what of our goals for the region?
General Odom concludes:
Bingo!
And look in the news today. Commander Codpiece is making his speech, Obama says he thinks 30,000 more troops in Baghdad would increase stability, Hillary thinks we can win. The fix is in, fellas and gals, and no amount of hard-won wisdom is going to get in the way of victory. How I love the smell of napalm in the morning!
Jake
Zifnab isn’t the only one dodging:
Becomes: Let’s see a plan to hand out the visas! You don’t have a plan do ya? Arf, arf, arf!
I say we take a bunch of soldiers who have experience in handing out candy to Iraqi children and have them go to Syria and Jordan with the applications.
I suppose once SuperMbassy (TM) is complete folks could go there, but that seems rather cruel.
Cassidy
HOw am I dodging Jake? I expect the Iraqi people to stand up and be a part of their own development, instead of waiting for the Americans to give them everything. I’ve said as much before.
And you still didn’t adress my question. There has got to be someone here with a coherent idea of how to implement such a plan.
dingo
cassidy said:
“Grand ideas are nice and make you feel good to say them, but without any kind of detailed thought, they are largely useless.”
Too bad you weren’t a White House advisor prior to invading Iraq.
Zifnab
From Previous Cassidy:
Sounds like you were making a crass generalization against all liberals everywhere. You’ve got a problem that you can’t solve. You don’t see any liberal solutions staring you in the face. Ergo, liberals don’t have a plan.
Of course, legislation has already been passed to increase the number of visas to Afgan and Iraqi refugees.
Senator Kennedy has an expanded proposal, backed by Senators Smith, Biden, Hagel, Lieberman, Leahy, and Levin.
This issue isn’t just a moonbat talking point or a Cindy Shehann bumper sticker. If you want to read the details of the bill, by all means look them up. But don’t come whining and crying because you don’t know stuff about the issue you pretend to care so much about.
So far, all you’ve done on this thread is cry buckets of tears over your own ignorance. Like a true conservative, you make the intelligent people do all the research while you castigate people for being intellectually lazy. It’s the Global Warming playbook all over again. Get a new fucking script. Or, better yet, learn to Google before you open your yap.
Cassidy
There wasn’t a lot of room for any Democrats when all that happenned. And the ones that were there dropped the ball.
But yes, my statement applies to all sides. Whether it’s universal healthcare, tax breaks, war, visas for Iraqis, etc., without a *realistic plan of implementation, then it’s empty rhetoric. As an individual citizen, I may or may not agree with the ideal or the plan to bring it about, but I can at least appreciate that some coherent thought was put into the idea. That’s why I’m challenging this visas for Iraqis statement. I’m sure it feels good to say, but handing out thousands or millions of visas to displaced Iraqis will create a number of significant issues upon implementation, many of hich will have a dramatic impact on our cultural health and fiscal health as a nation. So, bandying about such feel-good rhetoric, without the necessary detailed thought that is required to turn it into policy, is an exercise in intellectual laziness.
*Realistic= “I plan to do A, B, and C, to bring about ______”
vs.
“I’m going ot plant a money tree, and in the fall, I’ll harvest the fruit and implement Universal healthcare for everyone.”
Cassidy
Zifnab, Zifnab, Zifnab…you are such a poor sport. You’ve gone and opened up your yap about handing out visas, yet when asked how you would implement such a plan, adressing the number of issues it would bring, you’ve regressed into attack mode. You provided lots of links without actually answering the question.
I’ll ask again, since you appear to be blind to see it. How would you implement such a policy of handoing out thousands of visas to Iraqis, addressing the specific questions I’ve asked?
I’ve made no generalizations about the Dems plans, especially the ones you linked to as they had no relevance on this topic. So, quit stalling and answer the question, or admit that all you’ve done is spout empty rhetoric and your lofty ideas have no actual substance. If you can’t put a coherent thought together long enough to answer my questions, then all you’re doing is wasting good oxygen (you’re doing that anyway, but oh well).
Just admit it. You’re ideas have no substance. You’re too lazy to do something about it yourself. You just want someone to do it for you, as long as you can take credit for the rhetoric. Ignorance indeed.
Nice try on moving the goalposts, though. I’ll give you a “D” for effort.
Zifnab
Can somebody explain to Cassidy, in a language he understands, that the Kennedy Visa Bill does exactly what he is suggesting that Democrats don’t have a plan to do?
Somebody? Anybody? Translator? Please?
Cassidy
I’m not suggesting Democrats don’t have a plan. I’m blantantly saying you don’t have a plan to support your rhetoric. You are an empty idealist, with no more substance than Paris Hilton. You’ll shout all day long, but you’re too lazy to actually come up with a coherent and detailed thought behind your ideals. You’re just another lazy idealist, who is happy to yap, yap, yap, as long as someone else does the real work.
grumpy realist
Cassidy, it’s pretty thick to whine that the Iraqis are “not sticking around” when they are, to all intents and purposes, in the middle of a goddamn civil war.
I don’t think Love of the Free Market means one has to stick around until one has one’s son set on fire, daughter kidnapped, and wife forced into prostitution. Never mind trying to keep a business going in the middle of bombs, bullets, and no electricity.
But to a lot of Libertarians, what’s going on in Iraq right now is the Ultimate in a Free Society. After all, “an armed society is a polite society.”
I’m not sure the Iraqis can handle any more politeness.
Gus
Zifnab and Cassidy, can you guys take it outside, please?
Zifnab
You know what, Cassidy? You win. When it comes to setting up the minutia of visa regulations for foreign nationals emigrating from a war zone, I am in fact all talk and no plan. My knowledge of international immigration law, transport logistics, and the US immigration and naturalization service beurocracy is too limited to produce an informed comment. So I rely on Senators from Massachusetts to do all my thinking for me.
You win. I concede this argument to you.
Punchy
Tomorrow I plan to go to Cassidy’s house and completely raze it. Without asking first. When he asks why, I’ll say “you deserve better!”. When he complains he really was better off with a house than without one, I’ll just point to the sun and say, “But look! Sunshine!”
Then I’ll just walk away and say, “OK, go ahead! Build yerself that new house I promised to build for you!” And when Cassidy realizes he has not the means, time, nor safety to build said casa, I’ll laugh in his face when he asks if he can stay with me for awhile until he can get some money together.
ThymeZone
New rule: You have to be on record with actually stating and defending a “Lofty Idea” with substance, before you can call out a nonspoof poster on lofty ideas with substance.
Can you name a single lofty idea you’re presented here, and show the substance behind it please?
This will strain your limited spooftroll skills, yes, but you’ll be a better person for it when you are done. And we will be more able to see blurbs like that from you without laughing and spitting out our iced tea.
Bubblegum Tate
Can’t be put much better than that. Thanks for this, Jim.
LOLercoaster!
Cassidy
Well, Punchy, if you’d like, I will give you my address, but please keep in mind that I practice my 2nd Amendment and Georgia is a pretty friendly state when gun owners put down home invaders.
I don’t present lofty ideas. If I have an diea, when asked, I’ll give a plan for such idea to be implemented. And I don’t bother myself with all that feel good rhetoric crap either. I do what works.
Wow, this thread could’ve been so much shorter, if you’d just admitted from the start that all you had was rhetoric. And I’m not surprised you would let someone think for you. It’s a pattern for you. But i wold like ot remind you of something you said:
Perhaps you should have “shut your yap” before exposing your own lack of substance. A little hint, discussing facts is more interesting than regressing to the typical lib attack mode, when confronted on issues.
Punchy
Explain to everyone here how you plan to make this successful. Otherwise you’re all rhetoric and bullshit. You’re all boilerplate. Otherwise you’re full of shit.
Go ahead. We await your treatise on successful reformation of a civil war-torn kleptocracy to a thriving republic. Go for it.
Cassidy
I have no interest in reforming that country. I’ve been pretty consistent in that we should pull out and let them build their own country. It isn’t my job, nor may care to make a Iraq a successful venture. They live there, they can do it.
Cassidy
Btw, Zifnab, just for you:
After reading Edwards plan to end poverty, which I believe is a good goal, I see number of problems. My biggest concern is that there is no difference made between those who are having bad luck and those who have taken no responsibility for their lives. I have little compassion for willfully made bad choices and lack of personal responsibility.
The second thing I ask is where does he plan on getting the money? All those things he’s suggesting are not going to be cheap. A few of the suggestions, like back accounts, etc., are things responsible adults should be doing on their own, and not seeking the gov’ts help.
In the end, I don’t much care for what he wants to implement as it removes personal responsibility from the equation.
Rick Taylor
If he can ride it out long enough, the pull out will happen on someone else’s watch; probably a Democrat. The disaster will happen, but at least then he and his supporters can blame them.
–Rick Taylor
The Other Andrew
Cassidy…if you’re such a beliver in the whole “pull yourself up by your boostraps” thing, maybe we shouldn’t have invaded and ostensibly tried to jumpstart a revolution for them?
Cassidy
I agree. I don’t think we should’ve gone in the first place.
Punchy
Yeah, and there’s visas to be had, so they can get them.
Just thought I’d put as much explanation to my grand scheme as Cassidy does.
Cassidy
Apples and oranges punchy. I’m not proposing a grand scheme. But you know that. You’re just being deliberately moronic.
Punchy
Of course not. Nation building? Sectarian reconcilliation? Massive wealth distribution? Nah. Those aren’t grand schemes. Happens on a daily basis, right?
When you care to explain in some detail how you plan to let the Iraqis “do it”, we’ll take you seriously. Until then, please just STFU and wipe the Cheetos stains off your fingers.
Halffasthero
I leave the blog for a little while and come back to see Cassidy in the middle of a storm again. I don’t necessarily disagree with anything you say regarding the Iraqi people. The problem here is like Powell once said, “you break it, you bought it”. There is no money to deal with this because we are running a deficit. We were running a deficit all through a war that the oil money from Iraq was supposed to pay for. Half a trillion dollars later (and climbing) we are still paying for it. The war is not ending, Iraq is still broken, there are two million refugees with no home. And we have bought it hook, line and sinker. With money we don’t have.
Does this sound like a “no win” situation? Sounds like it to me. Just like the decision to stay or go in Iraq, we are stuck with a choice between the lesser of two evils.
Welcome to the fallout of the “Bush Doctrine”.
Btw, Cassidy. You have nothing on Darrell (whom you maybe never saw post here). I actually agree with many of your points. Darrell, on the other hand…
Cassidy
I don’t need to explain. They can figure it out. I haven’t proposed nation building or any other such idiotic pursuit. If you want to continue to be obtuse and try to twist my words as such, by all means, go ahead. Won’t change anything.
I am willing to bet, like most of the American public, you’re just another fat, fast food junkie. Stop projecting and do some exercise. The fresh air will do you some good.
Tayi
Every time some politician spouts off about how Iraq is or is not like Vietnam, I remember what my international studies prof (who was a Navy lieutenant during Vietnam) taught about the lessons the United States learned from our loss in Vietnam: If you’re going to fight a war, go in with the most massive amount of force possible, tons more soldiers than you could ever need, do the job and get the hell out again. Don’t ever even think about starting a war without crystal clear objectives and plans for every contingency, and be most particularly careful to define what victory is and what defeat is, so you know when you’ve got there.
He was teaching this in spring of 2001, in a basic undergrad course. I sometimes wonder how our recent history would be different if, say, our President had taken that course with me.
ThymeZone
“cassidy” is most likely a regular here, and is generally believed to be one of our list members. His “I’ve been to Iraq” and bloody uniform waving schtick are also under scrutiny. I seriously doubt that much if any of it is true.
There has even been some discussion that cassidy is being written by the same person(s) who wrote Darrell. I doubt this, but it’s possible.
Considering the number of spoofs, personas and trolls who work these pages, it’s wise not to jump to any conclusions about who or what a poster actually is.
Cassidy
Exactly. And that’s part of my point. I don’t honestly think badly of people who have humanitarian leanings. I think it’s a waste of time personally, but oh well. But, another wise person said, if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem. Feel good rhetoric brings nothing to the table.
Handing out thousands of visas to Iraqi refugees solves nothing. AAMOF, it creates even more problems. So the trade off for feeling warm and fuzzy is an even more bloated welfare system, an even bigger burden on our subsidized health care system, a prolonged period of time before American Citizens can even think about comprehensive medical coverage, a bigger strain on our school system, as it adapts to accomodate, etc.
But hey, as long as it feels good, right?
Cassidy
You’ll excuse me if I’m not insulted or concerned about. I don’t find it necessary to prove myself to individuals whose ideas are no more thought out than your average HS Democrats Club. I’ve seen kids on college campuses, trying out Mommy and Daddy’s opinions in the real world, with deeper thoughts than you.
Zifnab
I’m pretty sure Darrell graduated. That’s why we stopped seeing him back at the end of last semester. The evolution from a Darrel-esque lockstep support of the Bush Administration in both name and deed is the foundation on which Cassidy is built as a character in lockstep support of Bush policy as he besmearches the regime itself.
Kinda like the guy who declares that he is against both Nazis and Jews. Godwin.
Stooleo
Hmm, I love the idea of blaming the liberals for the loss of Vietnam. Now, where have I heard that before, how about Germany, post WWI.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolchstoßlegende
When in doubt copy the master.
Punchy
Cassidy says:
But then says, about his own proclamations:
As for that last sentence, he previously said:
This spoof is just pure comedy. Whoever’s doing Cassidy, well done.
ThymeZone
That would be, well, endearing, if anyone had asked for proof.
Pretty much your credibility has been DOA here for a long time, and most people are now just watching to see how far you can take your act before it collapses from lameness, or implodes due to overextension.
Right now I am betting on the former, but you might surprise me and jump the shark at any moment.
Cassidy
Usual tactic for BJ commenters: twisting words and moving goal posts. I don’t even know why I try to get you all to be slightly honest.
magisterludi
Obviously, this is just a new attempt to sell the war.
If Cheney and Bush had actually cared about the outcome of the VNW, I would think they would have chose to serve rather than dodging the draft.
ThymeZone
Yawn. Step it up, man, this crowd is pretty sophisticated. Stalling tactics aren’t well received here.
Get on your game, or retire the handle and start over. You are getting way too predictable.
Halffasthero
True, but the writing style is entirely different – Darrell usually blasted out a pointedly ridiculous position before name calling people on how left-wing they are. If he is the same person, he has clearly moved to the left from Darrell. In any case, I am wiling to accept that he is who he says he is and some previous poster changing his name.
Darrell was never afraid to start a flame war and would not need to hide behind another name. If he did and he is Cassidy, what is the point? The result is the same.
And Cassidy, you never did respond to my point – “you break it, you bought it”. “Feel good” has nothing to do with what I said. We made this mess, we owe them to help clean it up if we are any kind of human beings. We created the future “bloated welfare system”, that is all part of my argument.
Cassidy
Didn’t realize you wanted a response. Sorry.
I think that sentiment easily applied to the first few years, but after the quote from Maliki and the lack of any kind of action by the Iraqi gov’t to take on the burden of their own security, I think our debt has been relieved.
ThymeZone
Well, really, that’s the point. Spoofing is its own point, trolling is its own point, the persona is its own point.
Some of your correspondents here are practicing all three of these at the same time, cassidy almost certainly being one of them. I am a persona, I don’t do spoof. I’m a persona in the sense that the style you see here is fictional, however the politics and the belief systems are really mine.
How many handles do you think DougJ has used here in the last two years? I would say somewhere in the realm of 30, maybe 50, maybe more. What would you wager (your own money) that cassidy isn’t one of them? If he isn’t DougJ, what would you wager that he’s not one of twenty other people you “know” here? For that matter, what would you wager that I don’t write cassidy? You have no way of knowing, and honestly, it would be very easy for me to do and their IP nets would never catch me. I can be posting from a completely unknown IP address in five minutes or less. And I don’t even have to be a computer geek to do it.
There’s no consensus among the cognoscenti that Darrell wasn’t a persona. Or a class project for John or Tim.
When we are all drunk and sitting around the campfire, and the question comes up, “What would be the point …” the answer is, the point is the point. When content can be unbound from who the creator is, then …. the terrorists lose, if you get my meaning.
incontrolados
Too late Iraqis!
mighty white of you there, cass
Brachiator
There was a recent BBC News story about how in the UK “Whitehall officials ignored appeals by high-ranking army officers for asylum to be given to 91 interpreters and their families …” even though observers note that interpreters and other “collaborators” are already marked for death by various Iraqi militias. Handing out visas to Iraqis would not be a “touchy-feely” gesture, but would be a necessary humanitarian act designed to minimize the slaughter of people who attempted to aid the US.
Very simply put, we owe them. We told these people that we would topple Saddam Hussein and bring democracy to their country. We told them that we would help them. By contrast, a just released CNN news story notes how US officials are backing away from a committment to democracy in the region, and would settle for a stable, authoritarian government (“US Officials Rethink Hopes for Iraq Democracy”).
And since Bush is trying to invoke Vietnam, let’s look at what happened there. An estimated 1 million people were imprisoned without formal charges or trials; at least 165,000 died in re-education camps. Many were tortured by means of techniques that many conservatives now view as acceptable means of treating prisoners.
Ultimately, the US took in 823,00 refugees, with Australia and Canada taking in over 100,000 more. And guess what? The national economy did not collapse. There was no appreciable strain on our resources.
And unlike the fall of Vietnam, where people were mainly sent to re-education camps, I would bet good money that the most extreme Iraqi factions will seek to exterminate anyone who they suspect of helping the US and Britain. It’s that fanatical Islamic purification thing.
It’s fine to say that we should never have been involved in Iraq in the first place, but anyone, liberal or conservative, Republican or Democrat, or any other party, who would suggest that we should simply pull out and ignore anything that happens afterward would make even Pontius Pilate blush.
sparky
shorter Cassidy: “I can’t believe you said a bad word to me after I went to all the trouble to destroy your country. I’m leaving!”
Except for these bases over here. Those I keep. Thanks for playing!
ThymeZone
Pretty close to remarks made here on these pages two years ago, in some cases by me (well, by my alter ego, ppGaz).
Thing is, stuff has happened. One, the government we have which must administer whatever blandishments (or actual remediations) we are to take to the broken country of Iraq, is no longer trusted by the American people. We have no confidence.
Two, democracy in Iraq was never an option, so why cling to the wistful memory of these magical thoughts? There is no history of successful liberal democracy in the Arab world, and there is no reason to think that a change in that direction is forthcoming. So ….
Now what?
ThymeZone
And if you think I am exaggerating the problematic nature of Iraqi democracy ….
…this might give us an idea.
Cassidy
Call me Roman then. I wouldn’t lose a nights sleep over it. If they want to kill each other so bad, I say let them.
Shorter Sparky: I don’t read very well.
incontrolados
That’s it cass, wash your hands of the whole messy affair. Live your life knowing that had anyone bothered to ask you, you would have told them, tsk tsk, this invasion idea is not going to work out, but go ahead and do what you want. Just don’t come back here 4+ years later hoping that I will have any sympathy for you or anyone else because I won’t.
incontrolados
Just curious, cass, but what quote from Maliki was it that hurt your feelings so badly?
scarshapedstar
Okay, George. Just answer one thing real quick. Are people still dying in Vietnam? Not like your worthless draft-dodging ass would know, but they’re not. Christ.
incontrolados
I heard a long excerpt on Hewitt on the way home. Bush claimed that the U.S. is killing or capturing 1500 terrorists a MONTH. (This is since January of this year.) Hugh was all, “do the math” and “if they’re dead they can’t come over here and kill us.”
The PR push is here, less than a month before the *report* to be given on 9/11/07. Yesterday Hewitt was yammering with Austin Bay about how Petraeus (sp?) should sit down with some reporters and just talk.
We are going to hear the wingnut version of every war this country has ever been involved in before Sept. 15th.
Cassidy
I live just fine. I don’t shoulder other people’s burdens, nor do I make myself responsible for someone else’s wellbeing. So, if you’d like to go over there and do something to assuage your guilt, be my guest. I’ve already been and have no interest in going back.
incontrolados
double post — sorry
Ding! Cass cares for his and his own more than others.
Dem there?
I doubt it. Just another little l libertard.
next?
TenguPhule
Translated Cassidy: Iraqis should welcome the chance to get killed by guerillas from opposing factions because its cheaper then having to give those welfare queens my money because they’re all stupid poor brown people who only take take take.
It would be wonderful if Iraqis could stay in Iraq and rebuild it. So would flying ponies dancing in sugarplums.
One will happen when the other does.
The point Cassidy consistantly ducks, avoids and runs away from is that the Iraqis who can afford to have fled for a reason. There’s nothing left for them in Iraq and they know it. Kidnappings, assassinations, the random US/Iraqi troop raid murdering them in bed, lack of clean water and consistant food supplies, lack of electricity, lack of gas and all the rest of it have destroyed the professionals and the educated classes that were Iraq’s backbone.
TenguPhule
I do hope you take the time to explain your viewpoint to each and every Iraqi who stuck their necks out for the US by acting as translators and regional allies that you’re fine with them getting killed because you think its cheaper then giving them a passport out.
Ironically if the US military operated like that ‘No man left behind’ would become ‘No man left behind, except Cassidy because its just too much trouble’
TenguPhule
Shorter Cassidy: Stupid Poor Brown People R going to come into your base, killing your doodz!
Cassidy
That’s a different category than handing out “thousands” of passports to refugees. The translators are actually participating in the rebuilding of their country, so to them, I’d offer a fast track to citizenship.
And I’ve ducked nothing. If they can leave, power to them, but I don’t respect it. If they really cared about their country, they would be willing to stay and make it better.
You can take it how you want. Doesn’t change fact. Giving visas to thousands of Iraqi refugees solves very little. It would be an expensive program, adding more debt to our allready out of control financial status. Call it callous, but that money is better spent on American citizens.
Your quoted part said no such thing and you know it. Is dishonesty a way of life for you?
Cassidy
And what’s wrong with this. I should put others comfort, safety, etc. before the comfort and safety of my own? If you really beleive that, I’ll give you my address so you can start sending me your paycheck.
TenguPhule
And if ponies could fly, they’d prance among the stars.
The point you keep avoiding is that they can’t stay because there’s nothing for them to rebuild. They stay, they die. You can commit suicide, but don’t ask others to do so and complain that it would be cheaper to do so.
Big words from someone who doesn’t have to worry about being tortured to death along with their entire family every night. You’ve got the entire US military with support to guard your back when you sleep. They don’t.
No Man left behind, except Cassidy because its too much trouble.
Cassidy
Life is a bitch sometimes. The world moves on.
Brachiator
Despite this, the Bush Administration continues to do whatever they want in Iraq. Meanwhile, the GOP candidates appear to be promising perpetual war, while most of the Democratic candidates are attempting to appeal to the infantile wing of their party, those who believe that pulling out of Iraq will also push a magic reset button returning the world to a peaceful status quo. GOP congressional leaders don’t appear to be willing to get with the Democrats and restrain Bush. Whether voters are willing to translate their lack of confidence into electoral changes remains to be seen.
History is not predictive. There had never been a democracy in India for 4,500 years. There is now. Life is full of surprising possibilities.
Damn good question. US forces really aren’t in control in Iraq, but are simply overseeing a civil war. The Bush/GOP proposal that we “continue to fight to win” is a strange delusion because there is really no one that we are fighting against. If we stay, bombings and killing will continue. If we leave, Sunnis and Shiites will continue their fight for dominance. If we divide the country into three parts and continue to back the Kurds, then Turkey, Iran and Iraq will do everything they can to undermine our allies. Recent bombings in Kurdish areas and the horrible ongoing slaughter of varies Iraqi religious and ethnic minorities suggest that the major insurgent fighters are willing to practice genocide against any group that might possibly oppose them.
So far, I have not seen any public figure honestly address post-Iraq challenges. Even the recent news story that some US generals would settle for the imposition of an authoritarian pro-Western regime, abandoning the attempt to install a democracy in Iraq, seems like a stale, unimaginative, unrealistic alternative. I don’t know if any government official or presidential candidate is willing to break all the rules, defy conventional wisdom and risk it all for something more than a version of the same old crap that is starting to drag us deeper into a worse-than-Vietnam quagmire.
TenguPhule
Says the one who has been helped by others to where they are today.
But that is why people like me defend the right of people like you to be assholes. Necessary evil of a free society.