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You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / Hearts and Minds

Hearts and Minds

by John Cole|  August 24, 20073:32 pm| 45 Comments

This post is in: Foreign Affairs, Republican Crime Syndicate - aka the Bush Admin.

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Vietnamese are pissed off at Bush’s Vietnam remarks:

People in Vietnam, where opposition to the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq is strong, said Thursday that Mr. Bush drew the wrong conclusions from the long, bloody Southeast Asian conflict.

“Doesn’t he realize that if the U.S. had stayed in Vietnam longer, they would have killed more people?” said Vu Huy Trieu of Hanoi, a veteran of the communist forces that fought American troops in Vietnam. “Nobody regrets that the Vietnam War wasn’t prolonged except Bush.”

He said U.S. troops could never have prevailed here. “Does he think the U.S. could have won if they had stayed longer? No way,” Trieu said.

Vietnam’s official government spokesman offered a more measured response when asked at a regular media briefing to comment on Bush’s speech to American veterans Wednesday.

“With regard to the American war in Vietnam, everyone knows that we fought to defend our country and that this was a righteous war of the Vietnamese people,” Foreign Ministry spokesman Le Dung said. “And we all know that the war caused tremendous suffering and losses to the Vietnamese people.”

We’ll file this under diplomacy.

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Reader Interactions

45Comments

  1. 1.

    Dug Jay

    August 24, 2007 at 3:35 pm

    Off subject, but this guy has it about right regarding the site host:

    “John Cole has sadly deteriorated as his self righteousness overwhelms his intellectual abilities. Over the last couple of years, he has become increasingly petty, slapdash in his judgments and accusations, sloppy in his reading and startlingly ungenerous to those with whom he disagrees. This is more appalling when we consider he saves his most vicious and unthinking attacks for people who hold views he once shared. As if he has a right to act as if holding to those views longer than he, means they deserve no respect, not even the minimal respect of having what they say accurately characterized.”

  2. 2.

    John Cole

    August 24, 2007 at 3:40 pm

    Call it tough love.

  3. 3.

    The Other Steve

    August 24, 2007 at 3:43 pm

    You moonbats just don’t get it! George Bush is creating an alternative reality, where you guys just don’t exist!

    As Max Boots writes in the WSJ, this was a very bold move!

    President George W. Bush boldly abandoned that template with his speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars on Wednesday. In a skillful bit of political jujitsu, he cited Vietnam not as evidence that the Iraq War is unwinnable, but to argue that the costs of giving up the fight would be catastrophic — just as they were in Southeast Asia.

    How difficult it must be for GW Bush, The Poet King, all alone, with few who are even capable of understanding the ramifications of the decisions that must be made.

  4. 4.

    Dug Jay

    August 24, 2007 at 3:44 pm

    Stupidity would appear to fit better…

  5. 5.

    Doug H.

    August 24, 2007 at 3:49 pm

    I think the heat’s getting to Dug Jay too.

  6. 6.

    Andrew

    August 24, 2007 at 3:52 pm

    Max Boots need to go fuck himself with a sideways jackhammer.

  7. 7.

    Punchy

    August 24, 2007 at 3:55 pm

    _________ are pissed off at Bush’s (same country) remarks:

    Seriously, you could fill in about 30 different country’s names in the blanks and the statement still stands.

    For America, that’s got to be unprecedented.

  8. 8.

    myiq2xu

    August 24, 2007 at 4:01 pm

    If we had stayed in ‘Nam until we won we would have been there until . . . uh, still?

    Although supported by the Communists, the real reason the Vietnamese were fighting was for independence from colonial occupation.

    Political ideologies like capitalism or communism had little relevance to a labor-intensive agrarian society.

    Like Iraq, we had the power to impose our will on the Vietnamese people, but we could never make them like it.

  9. 9.

    Gus

    August 24, 2007 at 4:02 pm

    Apparently you moonbats haven’t heard that several unnamed and uncited North Vietnamese officials were just about to surrender and become capitalist pigs until the Democrat communist congress cut off funding and military aid to South Vietnam. The Soviets were also just seconds away from cutting off their aid to North Vietnam until stab in the back traitors caused us to lose this war. I know this because I’ve read undocumented blog comments. It’s amazing what you can learn on the intertubes.

  10. 10.

    Jake

    August 24, 2007 at 4:06 pm

    Shorter Vietnam: Go fuck yourself.

  11. 11.

    Pb

    August 24, 2007 at 4:26 pm

    Off subject, but this guy has it about right regarding the site host

    I rather liked this take on him instead:

    John Cole is driven into shrill unholy madness
    […]
    John Cole’s Balloon Juice was one of those blogs on the other side of the spectrum that I used to read to balance my left wing blog diet a bit; he was one of the reasonable pro-war bloggers, back in the day when there was such a thing as a reasonable pro-war blogger. Things seem to be … a little different at Balloon Juice these days than they used to be:
    […]
    At the very least that’s worth transmogrification into an unspeakable tentacular horror.

    And, Dug Jay, I’ll link if you’ll learn to link.

  12. 12.

    Shelby

    August 24, 2007 at 4:56 pm

    So, to support the argument that the Vietnamese vociferously disagree with the US President, we’ve got (1) a communist soldier who fought against the US, and (2) a spokesman for the government established by the communist soldiers who fought against the US. Well, at least CBS got the full range of opinion.

  13. 13.

    Dreggas

    August 24, 2007 at 5:06 pm

    Iraq was not like Vietnam before it was like it…

  14. 14.

    MBunge

    August 24, 2007 at 5:16 pm

    “So, to support the argument that the Vietnamese vociferously disagree with the US President,”

    Yeah, cause ya know there are just TONS of Vietnamese who really do think the U.S. should have stuck around for another decade or two of carnage.

    This administration is going to make an interesting sociological study in the future. We’ve got a President saying things that sound like they came from a retarded person and no one really knows what to do about it. I do think that the Democrats should be cut just a tiny bit of slack because we never have had a modern President who behaves like George W. Bush. I mean, just remember the stupidest, most irrational, most undiplomatic and impolitic things Presidents have said from FDR through Clinton…then realize that Bush says even more outrageous things on a constant basis. How do you respond to that?

    Mike

  15. 15.

    Make7

    August 24, 2007 at 6:08 pm

    Remember when Clinton went to Vietnam near the end of his presidency? He gave a speech at Hanoi National University where he actually used the phrase “this shared suffering” concerning the loss of life on both sides of the Vietnam/American War.

    That made me cringe when I heard it. However, Bush seems to take making blunders to a whole new level. Perhaps he doesn’t realize how many people think the United States government was wrong about that war too.

  16. 16.

    mrmobi

    August 24, 2007 at 6:09 pm

    So, to support the argument that the Communist Vietnamese vociferously disagree with the US President, we’ve got (1) a communist soldier who fought against the US, and (2) a spokesman for the Communist government established by the communist soldiers who fought against the US. Well, at least CBS got the full range of Communist opinion.

    Wasn’t it the communists of Viet Nam who stopped the genocide in Cambodia? And didn’t we (the US) basically start the process (by the secret, illegal bombing of Cambodia) which led to Pol Pot (a communist) taking power in 1975? If you’re going to sell this kind of stupid, Shelby, you need to yell the word communist a lot more. The more you repeat it, the more true your point becomes, don’t you know?
    Besides, aren’t the communists the guys who won? Who else would we be talking to in Viet Nam?

  17. 17.

    Shelby

    August 24, 2007 at 6:18 pm

    MBunge:

    You seem to think I’m a Bush supporter; I’m not.

    mrmobi:

    You seem to think I’m making a big deal of the “communist” thing; I just copied it from the story as John quoted it: a veteran of the communist forces. I expect avowed Vietnamese communists to share a common perspective on the US, so that getting all your quotes from them is going to yield a predictable result — as would getting quotes solely from Ron Paul’s campaign manager and from the Cato Institute. That is not the method a good journalist would use to determine general sentiment in the country. Oh, and if you’re going to purport to quote me, next time do it accurately, without inserting words.

  18. 18.

    The Other Steve

    August 24, 2007 at 6:36 pm

    The problem with Vietnam, was the Vietnamese. If we could have just gotten them to move to some other country, the whole war would have gone quite easily.

  19. 19.

    Horatio

    August 24, 2007 at 6:37 pm

    Vietnam War Myths – http://www.rjsmith.com/war_myth.html

    The Tet Offensive Was a Communist Victory – Only In The Minds Of The Media

    Blacks Served In Disproportionate Numbers – They Did Not

    Most Men Who Served Were Drafted – Most Men Who Served (75%) Were Volunteers

    Draft Dodgers Protested Against The War – They Protested Over The Fact They Had To Serve

    Drug Use Was Rampant In Vietnam – Drug Use is Rampant In Berkeley, and Hollywood

    Fraggings Were Common In Vietnam – In fact they were rare

    Prisoners Were Hurled From Helicopters – From the archives of the Beverly Hills National Guard

    American Atrocities Were Widespread – In fact, only two can be documented

    Body Counts Were Falsified – If anything, we wildly underestimated NVA dead

    The Communists Still Hold POWs – There is no credible evidence to support this belief

    More at http://www.vietnam-war.info/myths/

    The American military was not defeated in Vietnam. The American military did not lose a battle of any consequence. From a military standpoint, it was almost an unprecedented performance. (Westmoreland quoting Douglas Pike, a professor at the University of California, Berkley a renowned expert on the Vietnam War) [Westmoreland] This included Tet 68, which was a major military defeat for the VC and NVA.

  20. 20.

    Tsulagi

    August 24, 2007 at 6:46 pm

    “Does he think the U.S. could have won if they had stayed longer? No way,” Trieu said.

    Do you need any more proof? Obviously the Vietnamese don’t see the big picture, and they’re still just trying to get back for a war critics op-ed.

  21. 21.

    Paul L.

    August 24, 2007 at 6:53 pm

    I would like to remind you guy that the Vietnamese violated the Geneva Conventions in their treatment of prisoners of war.
    Funny that now the Vietnamese are “the moral authority” to you guys.

  22. 22.

    Ted

    August 24, 2007 at 7:03 pm

    Body Counts Were Falsified – If anything, we wildly underestimated NVA dead

    The Communists Still Hold POWs – There is no credible evidence to…….

    Water is Wet – In fact, water is dry

    The Sky is Blue – In fact, the sky is red

    Shit Stinks – In fact, Shit smells like roses and honey (it actually might – to flies)

    Bush is Dim – In fact, Bush beat Kasparov in Chess

    My Cat’s Breath smells like Cat Food – In fact, it smells like ass

  23. 23.

    Gilmore

    August 24, 2007 at 7:05 pm

    Political ideologies like capitalism or communism had little relevance to a labor-intensive agrarian society.

    I don’t really disagree with your larger point, but uh…tell that to the Cambodians who managed to survive Mr. Pot.

  24. 24.

    Bubblegum Tate

    August 24, 2007 at 7:21 pm

    Horatio and Paul L–

    You both made very different posts, but they both left me wondering the same thing: “What the hell are you talking about?”

  25. 25.

    Bruce Moomaw

    August 24, 2007 at 7:28 pm

    It’s probably a good time to point out that, in his op-ed in today’s WSJ (where else?) Max Boot praises Bush’s attmpt to raise the Stab in the Back (er, Pull Out the Rug) metaphor as an act of “bold political jujitsu”, and adds that:

    (1) LBJ’s key mistake was in not invading and occupying large parts of Cambodia, Laos and North Vietnam immediately.

    (2) Bush should immediately attack both Syria and Iran.

    (3) We should try to set up Maliki as a dictatorial strongman (which is what we should also have done with Ngo Dinh Diem).

    (4) The US Army has to destroy most of the Iraqi “militias” militarily itself before there will be even the slightest chance of reaching a political settlement in Iraq. (Presumably he means the Sunni militias, not the Shiite militias. Of course, knowing Boot, it could easily be both — with our current number of troops. Alternatively, he may just be saying that we should establish a Shiite dictatorship in Iraq and then use it as a base from which to attack Iran.)

  26. 26.

    myiq2xu

    August 24, 2007 at 7:28 pm

    I don’t really disagree with your larger point, but uh…tell that to the Cambodians who managed to survive Mr. Pot.

    Yeah, Pol Pot would have been such a nice guy if he hedn’t become a communist.

  27. 27.

    jake

    August 24, 2007 at 7:31 pm

    I expect avowed Vietnamese communists to share a common perspective on the US, so that getting all your quotes from them is going to yield a predictable result

    They also interviewed a university student. Of course, he’s a citizen in a communist country so I don’t know if that also taints his comments. Maybe every reporter who comes to the US should have to hunt up a few socialists to balance out the opinions of the avowed capitalists.

  28. 28.

    myiq2xu

    August 24, 2007 at 7:39 pm

    Horatio and Paul L—
    You both made very different posts, but they both left me wondering the same thing: “What the hell are you talking about?”

    I’m not sure, but I think Horatio says we won the Vietnam War, and nothing bad happened over there.

  29. 29.

    rachel

    August 24, 2007 at 7:56 pm

    Paul L. Says:

    I would like to remind you guy that the Vietnamese violated the Geneva Conventions in their treatment of prisoners of war.
    Funny that now the Vietnamese are “the moral authority” to you guys the Bush administration.

    Fixed to show you what you just reminded me of. Sort of like how Bush’s “We lost Vietnam and Cambodia because we left!” meme reminds me that he himself chose not to even go.

  30. 30.

    jake

    August 24, 2007 at 8:49 pm

    Paul L. Says:

    I would like to remind you guy that –

    GOTCHA!

  31. 31.

    whatsleft

    August 24, 2007 at 8:53 pm

    I’m hoping someone can explain this whole thing to me – what I heard from those clips of Chimpy’s speech sounded like “we can’t leave Iraq because if we hadn’t left Vietnam, then all those bad things wouldn’t have happened in Cambodia”. Except, he made it sound like all those things that happened in Cambodia actually happened in Vietnam. So, if we pull out of Iraq then hundreds of thousands of people will be killed in some neighbor of Iraq’s?
    I was just left with the impression that Bush was conflating Vietnam and Cambodia circa mid-70’s (or his speechwriter was or both) and once again displaying his ignorance of actual history. Was there something else that I missed or misinterpreted here?

  32. 32.

    grumpy realist

    August 24, 2007 at 9:01 pm

    The “stab in the back” argument. Ah yes. Because the silly punks who natter it, day in, day out, can’t possibly conceive that the US could have lost because we were an occupying force and that usually (historically) means that the occupying force GETS THROWN OUT. We lost because we ignored that very basic rule of reality.

    A heck of a lot of Americans seem to have the idea that because of our “technological superiority” it is absolutely impossible that the US could ever lose a war, so when we do, it’s because of the evil Fifth Columnists who have somehow magically sabotaged us.

    These same Americans seem to feel that continuing to feed men and equipment into a stalemate that never changes is Great Strategy, and that for some reason we should continue doing so because it justifies the number of people who have already been killed. Aside from not understanding “sunk costs”, I also notice that the War Continuers never are willing to fight themselves.

    If we continue in Iraq, we will end up a) breaking the US military b) bankrupting the US. Exactly what Bin Laden said he hoped would happen, I point out. One would think that when you end up doing exactly as your enemy hoped you would act, you might want to reconsider your strategy. But this is too much planning for the War Continuers. They would prefer to continue dumping men and money into that gaping maw called Iraq, on the off chance that maybe, some point down the road, things will “get better.” In anyone else, this would be called “wishful thinking”.

  33. 33.

    myiq2xu

    August 24, 2007 at 9:30 pm

    In every direct battle with the NVA or the Viet Cong (aka Viet Minh) the US prevailed. We killed and injured far more of them than they did of our troops. We controlled the skies over South Vietnam and had superiority in the North.

    I joined the Army not long after the war ended, and most of my NCO’s were veterans of the war. These are some of the things they described:

    While on patrol, they would come under sniper fire. The sides of the trail or road (which were often rice paddy dikes) would be lined with hidden punji sticks (sharpened bamboo stakes) so that anyone diving for cover would be impaled. They rarely saw the sniper who would fire a few shots and then run.

    We built “firebases” with clear fields of fire, artillery and mortar in the center surrounded by bunkers, trenches barbed wire and mines.

    The enemy rarely launched full scale attacks, but instead would lob a few mortar rounds or a couple of rockets sometime during the night. This would result in occasional casualties, but was more designed to disrupt our soldiers sleep. Every attack required a full alert, followed by a perimeter patrol.

    When they got lucky and killed a sniper or nighttime attacker, it often turned out to be an ARVN soldier.

    I’ve also read quotes from former VC soldiers that stated that they would be forbidden from overt activites in certain areas. Because these areas were “quiet” there were fewer US troops, which allowed the VC to have more freedom of movement.

    The basic guerrilla/insurgent/freedom fighter strategy:

    “Enemy advance, we retreat. Enemy halt, we harass. Enemy retreat, we advance.”

  34. 34.

    mrmobi

    August 24, 2007 at 10:58 pm

    The Vietnam War lasted for over 10 years. During that period 58,202 Americans lost their lives in an attempt to preserve the sovereignty of the Republic of Vietnam. To put this number in perspective, approximately 56,000 Americans are killed every year by drunk drivers. Yet Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda do not lead violent demonstrations outside the Seagrams building.

    Alas, poor Horatio, we hardly knew ye. I went to your link. Nice fucking propaganda site. I “protested” the Viet Nam war, both before and after I was eligible for the draft. I never knew, as is claimed on that site, that I was working for the North Vietnamese Communist Party. Good to know. Pure bullshit, but good to know.

    In truth, over 20,000 GIs died in Viet Nam just to prove that the US had a bigger dick than the communists. Robert McNamara all but concedes that point in his book.

    I don’t personally care whether we won or lost. There was no point, except that our government felt it was necessary to prove a point. If it was a “win,” we had a very interesting way of leaving. Somehow it didn’t feel victorious, know what I mean?

    Horatio, do you see how very, very familiar the language “to preserve the sovereignty of the Republic of Vietnam” is as in “to end tyranny anywhere in the world?” They both come from the same bullshit factory, where young Americans are just cogs in a very profitable war machine. All these years later, and we are still suffering under the Nixon regime. Amazing. You should try reading some non-propaganda materials, you might pull your head out of your ass and learn something.

  35. 35.

    John Cole

    August 24, 2007 at 11:09 pm

    The American military was not defeated in Vietnam. The American military did not lose a battle of any consequence. From a military standpoint, it was almost an unprecedented performance. (Westmoreland quoting Douglas Pike, a professor at the University of California, Berkley a renowned expert on the Vietnam War) [Westmoreland] This included Tet 68, which was a major military defeat for the VC and NVA.

    Kinda hard to blame the loss on the civilians and the war protesters, then, since the military clearly had everything they needed to win every fight.

    Yet you and the chowderheads are bringing up the stab in the back bullshit anyway.

  36. 36.

    Shelby

    August 25, 2007 at 1:31 am

    approximately 56,000 Americans are killed every year by drunk drivers

    I’m too lazy to track this down in full detail, but:

    According to drunk driving statistics from National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), an estimated 17,419 people died in the year 2002 in alcohol-related traffic crashes

    (from drunk-driving.net)

    I can’t imagine that the NHTSA figure isn’t at the high end of the possible range of numbers. Horatio, can you back up the alleged 56,000?

  37. 37.

    blogReeder

    August 25, 2007 at 8:56 am

    Who would have thunk that a post about a Vietnam (communist) rep talking about the outcome of the war would bring out all the liberal commie supporters? I’m really surprised – NOT.

    Remember libs, communism has killed more people that even the Bush Administration. I liked the comment about how Vietnam (communist) “saved” Cambodia against Pol Pot (communist).

    Don’t you people realize that communism is a bad form of government? It sure sounds good on paper. But then liberals are not known to think beyond a knee-jerk. Let’s just look at the situation in this country, shall we? Imagine that we lived under a communist form of government and Bush was the leader. Think about it, you wouldn’t be getting rid of him in 2008 and all HIS programs would be the law. Right?

  38. 38.

    John Cole

    August 25, 2007 at 9:41 am

    You caught us, Blogreeder. We were just pretending to lament the deplorable and stupid rhetoric from this president, but you saw through it.

    You, alone, were able to see that what we were really doing was pining for the Days of Chairmen Mao and Uncle Joe.

    Moron.

  39. 39.

    blogReeder

    August 25, 2007 at 1:31 pm

    See, I know what you guys are all about. :)

    Now I am surprised. I can sometimes get a rise from Tim, not you John. Thank Goodness there was no mention of A.H..

  40. 40.

    Tulkinghorn

    August 25, 2007 at 1:47 pm

    Horatio is right.

    The US Armed forces did not lose the Vietnam war. However, the Vietnam War was definitely a loss. The policy that the war supported turned out to be unworkable, so the success of the armed forces was, in the end, beside the point.

    This is an excellent parallel to Iraq. No matter how well the armed forces perform, the failed policies can not be retractively unfailed. In Vietnam and Iraq, the final arbitor of whether the policies succeeded was the local governments. If they could not gain legitimacy on their own, no occupying military force could create it for them.

    So in both cases we invested immense treasure and human life into a project where the outcome was in the hands of people other than ourselves. Stupid policy leading inexorably toward bad results.

  41. 41.

    Rome Again

    August 25, 2007 at 6:33 pm

    Most Men Who Served Were Drafted – Most Men Who Served (75%) Were Volunteers

    Draft Dodgers Protested Against The War – They Protested Over The Fact They Had To Serve

    Drug Use Was Rampant In Vietnam – Drug Use is Rampant In Berkeley, and Hollywood

    I have a brother who was drafted, ran to Canada, was returned, spent a few years in Vietnam and then came back with a pound of Cambodian pot.

  42. 42.

    TenguPhule

    August 26, 2007 at 3:56 am

    Imagine that we lived under a communist form of government and Bush was the leader.

    We don’t have to imagine, we’re in it already.

  43. 43.

    TenguPhule

    August 26, 2007 at 3:58 am

    I would like to remind you guy that the Vietnamese violated the Geneva Conventions in their treatment of prisoners of war.
    Funny that now the Vietnamese are “the moral authority” to you guys.

    Does this mean PaulL admits the US has forfeited its moral authority today?

  44. 44.

    rachel

    August 26, 2007 at 5:44 am

    Does this mean PaulL admits the US has forfeited its moral authority today?

    Sometimes “gotchas!” have unintended consequences.

Comments are closed.

Trackbacks

  1. An administration desperately out of touch… « Compassion in Politics says:
    August 24, 2007 at 3:51 pm

    […] 24th, 2007 · No Comments Check out this cartoon about our travesty in Iraq and Bush’s speech about Vietnam.Here’s the quote from his speech highlighted. […]

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